Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

An unpunished coup is a training exercise.

We won’t go back.

This fight is for everything.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

Everybody saw this coming.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Not all heroes wear capes.

The willow is too close to the house.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Everyone is in a bubble, but some bubbles model reality far better than others!

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.

Alternative history is always a weak argument. Always.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

We still have time to mess this up!

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Russiagate Open Thread: How Many Repub Senators Does the GRU Already Own?

Russiagate Open Thread: How Many Repub Senators Does the GRU Already Own?

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Sure, it’s not like anyone paying attention didn’t already know this, but you’d think verification of a long-standing, ongoing attack against America by a foreign power would get some traction in the news, yes?

… The long-pending report by the Intelligence panel concluded that Russia directed an aggressive social media campaign to hurt Democrat Hillary Clinton and help Trump in the 2016 presidential election and warns similar efforts to interfere in U.S. politics are still under way. It was a bipartisan endorsement of the finding made by U.S. intelligence agencies and often questioned by Trump.

The report, two years in the making, found that the Internet Research Agency “was overtly and almost invariably supportive of then-candidate Trump to the detriment of Secretary Clinton’s campaign.” As part of that effort, it targeted African-Americans through social media more than any other group…

Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, the committee’s top Democrat, warned of more interference to come in next year’s election. “There’s no doubt that bad actors will continue to try to weaponize the scale and reach of social media platforms to erode public confidence and foster chaos,” he said…

Among the findings were efforts by the Kremlin-directed IRA to convert social media into real-world actions. Operatives posing as U.S. political activists also “sought help from the Trump campaign to procure campaign materials and to organize and promote rallies.”…

The panel urged that lawmakers consider expanding to social media the existing transparency requirements for political advertising on TV or the radio. Facebook, Google and Twitter have all put together ad transparency databases, but differences between them persist and legislative vehicles, such as the “Honest Ads Act” that Warner supports, have stalled.

Senator Kamala Harris, a member of the Intelligence Committee who’s running for the Democratic presidential nomination, said in a statement that the Russian tactics were “designed to suppress the votes of black Americans in particular” and that social media companies must step up their efforts to fight disinformation. She said they need to “ensure their workforces are diverse enough to identify and understand the cultural nuances that foreign actors exploit to divide and harm Americans.”

(Yeah, I still don’t trust Burr, because he’s retreated to the ‘what could us poor Repubs do? They held a gun to our heads!’ defense. Squeak the f*ck up, at the very least, traitor-enabler.)


Reader Interactions

166Comments

  3. 3.

    scott (the other one)

    It does suggest one reason why Senate Rs and Ds who have seen the secret Intel have been consistent in saying Russia interfered. And the bipartisan report is unequivocal: that interference was aimed at helping Trump and hurting Clinton.

    And knowing it for a fact, and being some of the very few people in the entire world in a position to actually do something about it, they’ve done what, exactly?

  5. 5.

    Aleta

    Michael McKinley, a career diplomat and senior adviser to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, has resigned his position amid rising dissatisfaction and plummeting morale inside the State Department over what is seen as Pompeo’s failure to support personnel ensnared in the Ukraine controversy.
    …
    Like many others, (McKinley) was disappointed in the secretary’s lack of public support for diplomats who have been named in the Ukraine controversy and called to testify before House committees ….

    Concern has been especially high for Marie Yovanovitch, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine whom Pompeo recalled from her post when a right-wing media campaign accused her of disloyalty. Yovanovitch had questioned Giuliani’s efforts to press Ukraine to investigate Trump’s political rivals.

    Giuliani has said that Trump ordered Pompeo to fire her. In his July telephone call Twith Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky ,,,Trump called Yovanovitch “bad” and said “she’s going to go through some things.”

    Now a fellow at Georgetown University on leave from the State Department, Yovonovitch is scheduled to give a deposition to investigating committees on Friday.

  9. 9.

    HeleninEire

    I miss Baud. I will post again in the morning thread where he usually posts. But really. Of all the people who post here, if I had to pick my best it is Baud.

  11. 11.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Yarrow:
    Are any of these people ever directly questioned why on fucking Earth they would vote AGAINST these measures? For fuck’s sake, what’s it going to hurt, even if it’s “hoax”? Elections should be secured anyway, since practically nation nowadays can launch cyber-attacks. I know why they do in reality, but they need to be hammered on this shit.

    “Why do you hate America? Don’t you think our elections should be secure?”

  12. 12.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @oldgold: I could imagine Bill Barr appointing Trey Gowdy

    now that he seems to be weaseling out of the (other) trump job

  13. 13.

    My Side of Town

    Police shoot pepper spray outside amid protest as Trump rally wraps up

    Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune

    Boisterous and energetic protesters of Donald Trump packed the streets Thursday evening around Target Center in downtown Minneapolis for the president’s rally at Target Center, and the night was largely peaceful until disturbances prompted police on horseback and bicycles to form protective lines amid the agitated crowd… protesters swelled and enthusiasm remained high for what has been several hours of demonstrating that persisted while Trump spoke to his faithful inside a packed arena.

    Much of the day remained peaceful outside Target Center before a few incidents flared as the president kept up his speaking marathon…after 9 p.m., protesters began burning Trump memorabilia in the street, including flags and “Make America Great Again” hats. According to the Unicorn Riot livestreatm, vehicles leaving the area were confronted by protesters, and a flag was snagged from one car as it crept past. One man in an SUV calmly handed a protester his “MAGA” hat.

    Police employed pepper spray in an effort to quell one disturbance, and members of a pro-Trump militia-style group a few blocks away were confronted by police as they left their hotel…Minneapolis police have yet to report any arrests, but a few members of the Oath Keepers group were briefly detained after a bystander alerted authorities to men having weapons outside a hotel a few blocks east of the arena.

    Montanan Stewart Rhodes, speaking on behalf of the Oath Keepers, said it was “just a misunderstanding” because of their appearance that drew the police response. Rhodes said he and the others are in Minneapolis to protect attendees leaving Target Center after the rally ends, a service they have provided at other Trump events around the country.

    Read more: http://www.startribune.com/protesters-start-arriving-leading-up-to-trump-rally-in-minneapolis/562749432/

  14. 14.

    Wapiti

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: Every measure that we could put in place to stop Russian meddling in a free and fair election would also affect Republican efforts to meddle in a free and fair election. The Russians are just hammering at the weak points that the Republicans have left, or installed, in the system

  16. 16.

    Yarrow

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: From the linked article:

    Brexit Party MEP David Bull, one of those who voted against the motion said: “The Brexit Party exists to remove the United Kingdom from the EU and ensure we are democratically governed. We will always vote against more power and spending by the EU.

    “We won’t take lessons in democracy from parties which have packed together in order to frustrate the Brexit vote, the largest democratic act in recent British history. Stories of Russian interference have been exposed as baseless propaganda and scare stories used to shut down debate. As a party of free speech, we oppose shutting down debate.”

    So, they claim they’re against more money spent by and power given to the EU. Also, it’s fake news. Yeah. They’re owned.

  17. 17.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @My Side of Town:

    Montanan Stewart Rhodes, speaking on behalf of the Oath Keepers, said it was “just a misunderstanding” because of their appearance that drew the police response. Rhodes said he and the others are in Minneapolis to protect attendees leaving Target Center after the rally ends, a service they have provided at other Trump events around the country.

    Yup, armed thugs walking around on the streets is “just a misunderstanding” and not a domestic terrorism threat

  18. 18.

    Martin

    Patriots have a +142 point differential through 6 games. Their defense has scored more points than they’ve given up. I have a happy mom.

  19. 19.

    Mary G

    Uh oh, Twitler insulted Beyonce and Springsteen, and played Prince’s music at his rally in Minneapolis. Incoming:

    President Trump played Prince’s “Purple Rain” tonight at a campaign event in Minneapolis despite confirming a year ago that the campaign would not use Prince’s music. The Prince Estate will never give permission to President Trump to use Prince’s songs. pic.twitter.com/FuMUPzSWOe— Prince (@prince) October 11, 2019

  22. 22.

    Jeffro

    IC overlords and Senate powers-that-be-oh-so-mighty: just come out and say it, say it on national TV, say it on the internets, say it. 73% of the American people already know what went down and the hell with the 27% anyway.

    Our country was subverted, attacked, manipulated, whatever you want to call it, by a hostile foreign power. Primarily just to cause chaos in our government and our way of life, but…it worked beyond their wildest hopes and dreams, and installed a moronic puppet in our nation’s highest office.

    Let’s have it. Let’s have it out, let’s impeach and remove this MF, let’s air it out, let’s take it to SCOTUS, let’s retroactively un-declare Dolt45 and erase him from the history books and declare Hillz as ‘the’ #45 the day before President Dem-to-Be-Named takes office, whatever.

    Heck, other than the Dirty Dozen (Barr, McConnell, McCarthy, Pompeo, Pence, Graham, Nunes, Johnson, Meadows, Gaetz, and a few others) I’m willing to let the rest of the GOP plead out and ‘only’ live the rest of their lives in shame, provided that they cough up everything they know and say it in public. “We sold out our country for campaign ‘donations’ from a county actively trying to destroy our democracy”. I’ll TAKE it.

    No reason not to go all out at this point. As the song says, “Everybody Knows”…

  25. 25.

    jl

    A ‘tiny’ bottle of champagne? Little things can be big tells. Obviously the whole Russian story is a hoax and the Deep State Senate ‘bipartisan’ committee cooked up a fraud. The bipartisan is Deep State code for treasonous coup plotting against Trump!

    How do I know? Easy. No one backing Trump would open a tiny bottle of anything. It would be a big, beautiful, very big, the best, bottle.

  28. 28.

    jl

    I submitted a comment saying we can tell the story is false because no one supporting Trump would open a tiny bottle of anything. It would be a big beautiful bottle. But Deep State, probably treasonous, Balloon-Juice Blog threw away my comment.

  32. 32.

    rikyrah

    Blair Imani (@BlairImani) Tweeted:
    I wasn’t familiar with a lot of the receipts that @KamalaHarris has been pulling tonight in regard to her record on LGBTQ issues. That’s why these forums are crucial. #EqualityTownHall https://twitter.com/BlairImani/status/1182474016306561024?s=17

    #ListenToBlackWomenKamalaHarris2020 (@psddluva4evah) Tweeted:
    @notcapnamerica @KamalaHarris Kamala Harris has a longer list of receipts with it comes to tackling issues for the LGTBQ community than any one else of the 2020 candidates I believe. But you’d never know it if you relied on SM or the MSM to get that info https://twitter.com/psddluva4evah/status/1182478803714662400?s=17

  35. 35.

    jl

    When I’ve had trouble getting to sleep, I’ve been trying to adapt the folk classic ‘King Tut’ to ‘King Trump’.
    Nothing good has occurred to me yet, but it does get me sleeping damn fast. Only got this far

    King Trump, how’d you get so skunky?
    King Trump, did you fire that flunky?

    Other than that, so far I got nothing. Calling all BJ blog poets and songsters.

  36. 36.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Wapiti:
    Yeah@mrmoshpotato:

    Yeah. I just think that these guys need to be relentlessly hammered on this point. It’s common sense and would resonate well with Middle America imo.

    @Yarrow:

    “Stories of Russian interference have been exposed as baseless propaganda and scare stories-“

    Right, so I guess the American IC and all of the other ICs of other allies are all lying then?

    “As a party of free speech, we oppose shutting down debate.”

    Why you fucks call trying to ram through a no deal Brexit through Parliament?

  38. 38.

    dmsilev

    @rikyrah: That Tweet is doubly stupid. First, ‘former Republican’. Secondly, the vast majority of the people, especially of Warren’s generation, who now support marriage equality once did not do so. Thirty or so years ago, it was a fringe concept that even many activists at the time thought was a ‘might happen someday in the distant future’ thing and it was completely off the radar for most everyone else.

  40. 40.

    Anne Laurie

    @jl:

    I submitted a comment saying we can tell the story is false because no one supporting Trump would open a tiny bottle of anything. It would be a big beautiful bottle.

    This is the GRU speaking; they consider Trump a tiny, tiny little puppet, not more than quick-break-worthy celebration.

    (I finished your original comment out of the spam filter — suspect FYWP doesn’t trust the word ‘champagne’.)

  42. 42.

    Martin

    @rikyrah: Harris has been very good on the issue. She came in right after Prop 8 along with soup to nuts Dem takeover of the state and they worked really fucking hard to set CA on the right course, correct for Prop 8, and go further. They really did a lot in a short time.

  43. 43.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Wapiti:
    Yeah@mrmoshpotato:

    Yeah. I just think that these guys need to be relentlessly hammered on this point. It’s common sense and would resonate well with Middle America imo.

    @Yarrow:

    “Stories of Russian interference have been exposed as baseless propaganda and scare stories-“

    Right, so I guess the American IC and all of the other ICs of other allies are all lying then?

    “As a party of free speech, we oppose shutting down debate.”

    Why you fucks call trying to ram through a no deal Brexit through Parliament?

    @mrmoshpotato:
    Exactly. That’s not how you grow a political party. All that matters is that a candidate supports marriage equality now. It’s worth noting that Obama for the longest time claimed his views on gay marriage were “evolving”. This was likely political calculation but the point stands

  53. 53.

    BR

    @dmsilev:

    Also, I was reading the transcript, and my understanding of it was that Warren was saying that she can’t remember a time when she *didn’t* support marriage equality. I.e., she didn’t oppose it, but she wasn’t a politician so she didn’t really have a public position.

  57. 57.

    Immanentize

    @Yarrow:
    Everyone, except Andrew Sullivan (as he tells it), evolved on the issue of marriage equality. There was a real opportunity to end marriage in favor of state-sanctioned unions a la Europe and most of my non-religious queer friends were pushing in that direction. Not toward “marriage.”

    To pinch someone about becoming better is just purity pony sheisse. Vote Jill Stein.

  58. 58.

    Leto

    @Yarrow: @different-church-lady: It’s also weird that rikyrah basically just comes into most threads, regardless of subject, to shit on EW. Doesn’t really go negative on any other candidate, nor too positive, but will 100% shit on Warren. It’s tiresome.

  63. 63.

    Mary G

    Remember SharpieGate all those years ago, when NOOA put out that very sketchy unsigned statement that Twitler was right, the hurricane did so put Alabama in danger? WaPo has new story, to the surprise of no one: Top Commerce Department aides orchestrated NOAA’s Hurricane Dorian statement, House Science Committee chair says.

    In addition, Jacobs told the Science Committee that White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney was “involved in high-level conversations” about the statement, through the Commerce Department officials. As The Washington Post has previously reported, Mulvaney was acting at the request of Trump.

    Jacobs reported that he was first contacted about issuing the statement during the predawn hours of Sept. 6 by Michael Walsh Jr., chief of staff to Ross, and that the statement was drafted on the computer of Dave Dewhirst, deputy general counsel at the Commerce Department.

    Jacobs said Commerce political staff provided feedback on the draft statement and that Earl Comstock, the agency’s director of policy, was also involved. Within NOAA, Julie Kay Roberts, another political appointee who serves as Jacobs’s deputy chief of staff and communications director, was also engaged in drafting the statement, Jacobs said.

    I’m willing to bet a significant amount of money that none of these people are scientists.

  65. 65.

    dmsilev

    So, remember an earlier, more innocent time, six whole weeks ago, when the scandal du jour had to do with hurricane maps and a Sharpie? Well, I’m sure you’ll be shocked to learn that NOAA’s statement backing up Trump’s map was written by GOP political hacks:

    In addition, Jacobs told the Science Committee that White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney was “involved in high-level conversations” about the statement, through the Commerce Department officials. As The Washington Post has previously reported, Mulvaney was acting at the request of Trump.

    Jacobs reported that he was first contacted about issuing the statement during the predawn hours of Sept. 6 by Michael Walsh Jr., chief of staff to Ross, and that the statement was drafted on the computer of Dave Dewhirst, deputy general counsel at the Commerce Department.

    Jacobs said Commerce political staff provided feedback on the draft statement and that Earl Comstock, the agency’s director of policy, was also involved. Within NOAA, Julie Kay Roberts, another political appointee who serves as Jacobs’s deputy chief of staff and communications director, was also engaged in drafting the statement, Jacobs said.

  66. 66.

    Yarrow

    @Immanentize: Yeah, pretty much everyone had to “evolve” on the idea of marriage equality, even members of the LGBTQ community themselves. There was a time when it wasn’t even a thing to be thought of, let alone argued over. Starting at the “it’s not a thing people think about” point, it takes a lot of evolving to get where we are today.

  68. 68.

    dmsilev

    @Mary G: Hah! Great minds think alike. Anyway, to your question, the Post article states that Jacobs is a genuine meteorologist, but the others are all political apparatchiks.

  71. 71.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    Ellen DeGeneres explains her friendship with George W Bush (now with an Iraq war montage)

    Ellen went on to say that she and Bush are friends. “In fact, I’m friends with a lot of people who don’t share the same beliefs that I have,” she added. “We’re all different, and I think we’ve forgotten that that’s OK that we’re all different.” She likened her political differences (as a “gay Hollywood liberal”) with the Republican ex-president to the fact that she, unlike him, is a Packers fan. “Just because I don’t agree with someone on everything doesn’t mean that I am not going to be friends with them. When I say ‘Be kind to one another,’ I don’t mean only the people that think the same way you do. I mean be kind to everyone.”

    So I guess she would be fine with being friends with Adolf Hitler? or Pol Pot? I couldn’t imagine anyone as ideologically different to DeGeneres as Hitler

  74. 74.

    piratedan

    @Leto: didn’t always used to be that way….and tbh, I still think of Harris and Warren as my top two choices out of the available Dems..

    I do see and acknowledge Warren’s weakness with African American voters, but in a way, Harris has the same issue as everything I’ve read shows that the current favorite among AA voters is STILL Joe Biden. Perhaps we are seeing some stridency in trying provide separation between the two candidates by passionate Harris supporters. All indications that I see show that Harris and Warren actually like each other and many of the proposals that each offer are getting at the same issues, perhaps with some change in emphasis on how to address the issue and solve it. I’m not too tied up in who created what plan to address what issue as long as the idea is a good one and can be implemented effectively.

    If Warren isn’t the nominee, then I hope it’s Harris (or vice versa if you prefer) but I agree, I don’t think the tactic of trying to build Harris up at the expense of Warren is an especially effective tactic and the tenor of the attacks has an definite ratfucking smell to it as if its targeted to drive wedges into potential coalitions with people who should have common cause.

    Kind of like the folks who are pissing and moaning about Warren’s plans for financial aid forgiveness because “their” loans might not be forgiven while others would be.

  77. 77.

    Immanentize

    @Yarrow:
    That exactly. And if you are old enough to vote, believe me you friggin evolved because before Goodridge in 2004, you had to be deep in the confidences of a few litigators to be all in on marriage as the equality vehicle. The original goal was not marriage equality — even in Goodridge — it was to stop state sponsored discrimination and legal advantages that were offered to married heterosexual couples. Opening up the state definition of marriage to allow inclusion of same sex couples was the easiest way for courts to satisfy that complaint. It wasn’t the only way, but it was the easiest.

  78. 78.

    Wag

    @??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:

    That’s not how you grow a political party. All that matters is that a candidate supports marriage equality now.

    That’s crazy talk. Next you’ll be claiming that someone from the Middle East could be a useful friend in a dangerous part of the world, even though they didn’t send troops to Omaha Beach!

  79. 79.

    Leto

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: well according to her, no POC are going to vote for her. Most of us on here talk about crawling over broken glass to get the Dem nominee elected (even if that Dem nominee isn’t our first choice), but if it’s EW, fuck that shit! Once a Republican, always a Republican, ammirite???

  82. 82.

    Immanentize

    @piratedan:

    Perhaps we are seeing some stridency in trying to provide separation between the two candidates by passionate Harris supporters.

    Reading some of those tweet threads — that’s what I see. Very committed Harris supporters. Harris is still my first pick, but she is not moving. She had a moment then gave it back. It makes me sad. But tearing down Warren every opportunity will never bring Harris more votes. It is not a static pie and Harris is not the only (or primary) Warren opponent.

  84. 84.

    Yarrow

    @Immanentize: Yeah, I think it’s kind of dumb to disqualify people for “evolving” on an issue that pretty much everyone had to evolve on. I do think that pointing out what people who have been in elected positions for any length of time have done to support the LGBTQ community is fair. It’s a way for candidates to differentiate themselves.

  86. 86.

    Leto

    @piratedan: people have consistently pointed out that EW is gaining traction with AA voters. Someone earlier today posted new polling showing that she moved into second place, behind Biden, with AA voters as their second choice. Has she grown her support among AA voters? Yes; does she still have room to grow? Yes, as do most of the other candidates who aren’t Biden (and that includes Harris, who’s bringing “the receipts”).

    And I agree about the ratfucking. I’m seeing it wrt EW across multiple platforms. I mean, I guess it’s her time in the barrel. Idk.

  87. 87.

    Immanentize

    @Yarrow: I agree. And for some, that is their primary issue. I could go around asking Harris supporters where was she on the death penalty when she was AG? Warren never went to court to uphold death sentences!!!!x11. “Harris is a cop!”

    But that would be a mug’s game. They all feel like Bernie’s 2016 followers won the argument about whether mutual support or cage match trash talk is the best way to move forward.

    I’ll just point out I have never heard Warren’s or Buttigieg’s close supporters go after other candidates.

  88. 88.

    Leto

    @Yarrow: if she’s retweeting it:

    21
    rikyrah
    October 10, 2019 at 11:33 pm
    chris evans (@notcapnamerica) Tweeted:
    Elizabeth Warren (former Republican) says she doesn’t remember if she’s always supported marriage equality. https://t.co/p8QHFBYHh4 https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1182464729156997120?s=17

    She’s saying it. She stating, “I agree with this position, here you go BJ”. She’s copied tweets from other people stating the “former Republican” talking point. Let her explain why she agrees with that.

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: my preferred candidate is the Dem nominee, even if it somehow ends up fucking Wilmer, who isn’t a Dem.

  89. 89.

    piratedan

    @Leto: agreed. Warren is reaching out and doing what she can to make herself known to AA voters, I mean even if Jim Clyburn is reaching out to her and she’s accepting said invite and speaking, that to me is an awesome sign and a positive one. I have no problems with AA voters being skeptical and wanting to see more and hear more. What I would also like to see, is Harris being offered similar opportunities to reach people that she may have not had an opportunity to speak with and I am seeing her show up more often in media environments, which to me can only be a good thing as I believe that she has a LOT to offer and the more opportunities for her to speak, the better…

    on the whole, I would just as soon not see Dems criticizing other Dems, hell we have plenty of that from the entire GOP controlled media news networks and the FTFNYT, who will offer plenty of criticism in and of themselves, some of which might even have a glimmer of truth in it. You want to toot your own horns about your ideas and plans, no issue with that. You want to state that your were first in line on the side off Justice, that’s awesome, no reason to rip other folks just because you got there first, it’s like okay, okay, you were the first one to understand just how awesome the Beatles are, but you’re not exactly alone now are you?

  92. 92.

    Yarrow

    @Leto: I don’t know if she agrees with it. She might disagree with it. Or post it because it’s a different opinion than one usually hears here and think it’s useful for people to see. Or some other reason.

    I do agree that some explanation of why someone is posting a tweet can be useful and helpful. I have made an effort to do that but I don’t always do it. It’s especially helpful when the Twitter account isn’t instantly recognizable. I don’t know who some of these people are. I’ll click through, scan their accounts to get some sense of who they are.

  96. 96.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    The only flaw in the Russians cunning plan is how do they know this isn’t stupid shit we are doing to ourselves? I mean Donald Trump is the logical end result of modern American conservationism. Seriously, were is Trump any different that the people around Reagan, except Trump is open about it?

  97. 97.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @Yarrow:
    Oh come on. It’s no different than repeating the “Kamala is a cop!” bs talking point. It’s a bs baseless smear. She reposts it because she agrees with it

  99. 99.

    West of the Rockies

    I’d love to listen to black women, in particular if they got behind a POC sister, Kamala Harris.

  100. 100.

    Leto

    @piratedan: agreed. I’d love to see Harris doing better because I think she has good ideas, and she’s an engaging and charismatic person. I feel like she does a good job of drawing you into what she’s discussing and 1) leaves you better informed and 2) makes you want to engage with the process and move us forward. I don’t know why she’s not moving forward in the polls. Beto and Buttigeg? I don’t think they’re ready. But collectively I’m not going to slag them. I’m not going to keep on keepin’ on the offensive on them as it’s not productive and it’s toxic in the long run.

  102. 102.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    the Warren-bashing tweets smack of the kind of sore-loserism we saw from the PUMAs (remember them?) in ’08 and the BernieCrats in ’16. “Your candidate is cheating by being a better candidate than my candidate!”

  103. 103.

    piratedan

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: true Bill, and tbh, I haven’t seen Warren even address this line of commentary from Harris supporters, so I’m not sure that she sees them as attacks or is rather more focused on her public speaking engagements and getting her message out. When you see that when she is confronted with them directly, I’ve seen her eviscerate the thinly veiled GOP talking points that have been sent up as potential gotchas. So, perhaps she’s refusing to get down in the mud against fellows Dems and is saving her powder for the GOP and the media that are also doing their best to trip her up as well. I’ve seen her on the CNN Town Hall events and her deftness in handling those is pretty impressive.

    When I look back at all of the bs that came about in response to the Pocohontas slur, I really had no issues with how she addressed that even, she recounted her family history, referred to the available science to prove her point and then did outreach to the tribes who, based on what I could find, had no issues with her. The fact that we still see the same tired tropes repeated in the media and by the same bad faith actors indicated more to me that no matter what she did, they were gonna peddle the same shit irrespective of Warren’s response. I think she learned something from that as well, in respect to how the media operated within their established framing of the narrative and ever since that time, has been turning that tactic to her advantage by using their questions to frame her own narrative.

    I want to see Harris do that more often myself, as I respect her insight on applying laws and regulations to the political process and how that is done where government can be and should be a conduit to allow for laws to be prosecuted and for regulations to have teeth and penalties to them to uphold the rights of citizens against the more powerful.

  104. 104.

    Kent

    My 16 year old daughter introduced me to the comedian John Mulaney who does a pretty good riff on Trump. The Horse in a Hospital.

    https://youtu.be/JhkZMxgPxXU

    Maybe I’m just old and out of date. I’d never heard of him. He has his own Netflix show and apparently my daughter’s 16 year old set loves him. But this is hilarious.

  105. 105.

    West of the Rockies

    @Leto:

    Used to rage on Pete a lot.

    We all have our favorites and those we hope crash and burn. I’ve been pro Harris and EW. I think BS and Joe are simply too old and/or out of step.

  106. 106.

    Cacti

    At this point I just assume that all Congressional Republicans are compromised unless there’s compelling evidence to the contrary.

  107. 107.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kent: my 21 year-old niece is a big fan. If you ever saw Bill Hader’s Stefon character on SNL (“This club has everything…”), Mulaney was Hader’s writing partner

  108. 108.

    Mary G

    I wonder if someone’s decided to wag the dog:

    #BREAKING An explosion in an Iranian tanker has set the NIOC-owned vessel on fire 60 miles from Saudi port city of Jeddah. Heavy damages caused to the vessel, and oil is spilling in Red Sea. Experts guess it's a terrorist attack, Iran's Nour News quotes informed sources— Reza Khaasteh (@Khaaasteh) October 11, 2019

  110. 110.

    Leto

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I’ve said for months, here, that it’s EW and Harris. They’re my #1. I think they’re the strongest candidates we have. But what you haven’t seen me doing is non-stop slagging one candidate for weeks now.

    @Yarrow: she’s stated that she’s “trying to be the canary in the coal mine” wrt EW. Got it. She also doesn’t provide any explanation past her copy/paste. Rarely ever does. But at this point she’s just repeating the same shit over and over. She also doesn’t acknowledge any evidence that contradicts what she posts.

  111. 111.

    Kent

    @piratedan: Honestly. WTF is with all the hand-wringing about Warren and AA voters? So what if she isn’t their current favorite candidate in South Carolina or wherever. My experience in the decades I’ve watched American politics is that there is absolutely no more loyal Democratic constituency than African Americans. And especially AA women. The one group of voters I’m absolutely NOT worried about coming out to vote against Trump is African Americans, no matter who the Dem nominee is. They will come through because they ALWAYS fucking come through. It’s the rest of the mostly white Democratic coalition that pisses things away and does criminally stupid shit like think there is no difference between Trump and Hillary, or gets Jill Stein-curious. It’s always the black women you see waiting 6 hours outside in the cold to vote in places like St. Louis where GOP criminals and incompetents can’t or won’t manage their elections. While white voters in vote-by-mail states can’t be bothered to stick their postage paid ballots in the mail.

    African Americans are going to do their fucking part. They always do. No matter the nominee. It’s the rest of us that I’m worried about.

  112. 112.

    Sebastian

    @jl:

    It’s called a piccolo bottle. Quite popular in Europe if you don’t want to lug a standard or magnum around and need something smaller for the office fridge or mini bar.

  114. 114.

    Leto

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: here’s two attacks. How do they defend against them?

    If you dont think the women running for President have it harder, consider the last 24 hrs. People are questioning if Warren was fired for being pregnant because it wasnt admitted on official records and Harris is being asked about misconduct at a law firm where she never worked.— Brian Fallon (@brianefallon) October 8, 2019

    Especially the Harris one.

  115. 115.

    piratedan

    @Kent: Kent, it’s under discussion here because of the litany of tweets that refer to Warren’s issues with AA voters. It’s a drum beat that has been constant for weeks now. As to the reasons behind it and the reasons, that despite evidence that EW is attempting to build bridges with AA voters, that note is still being struck by the commentary that rikyrah keeps referencing.

    i do NOT want to make the mistake of taking those voters and their voices for granted, despite evidence that improvements are being made and outreach is in progress…. This is the note that I am trying to strike. I like Harris and I like Warren, I want both of them to have their ideas and their passion brought to the forum and like others have noted, I want there to be a minimum of self-owns in the Dem process, which is difficult enough with the likes of Ms. Gabbard and Mr. Sanders without certain folks also attempting to drive wedges between Ms. Warren and Ms. Harris and their supporters.

  116. 116.

    West of the Rockies

    @Kent:

    Well said. Russian meddling, GOP rat-fracking, FTNYT anti-HRC editorializing, and James Comey aside, Trump is in office because of 53% of white women voters and 60% of white men. I want to slap 60% of those who look like me.

  117. 117.

    dm

    @rikyrah: In 2004, marriage equality was reality in Massachusetts, starting May 17.

    Godspeed to Harris, but if Warren becomes the candidate, I hope she comes to deserve the support of the AA community.

  118. 118.

    Leto

    @Kent: Then you might want to engage rikyrah on that because she has told us in no uncertain terms that if Warren wins the nom, AA women aren’t going to be there come Nov 2020.

    rikyrah
    October 10, 2019 at 12:17 pm
    @Citizen Alan:

    Will African-Americans continue to be “unenthusiastic” or whatever about EW once she has won the nomination and Obama is out every day singing her praises?

    A candidate who wins the nomination without the support of THE BASE of the party? and, then, you turn around and expect that base to come out for said candidate?

  120. 120.

    Mnemosyne

    @rikyrah:

    As I said in an earlier thread, I suspect that one of the reasons Black voters are sticking with Biden is that they don’t trust that white voters would vote for a woman. Because, as a group, white voters are assholes.

  121. 121.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne: If she were attempting to make that argument, I’d understand that. But she doesn’t. Also if we’re going with the white voters are assholes, then all of us need to make peace with Biden because women and POC are out of the running.

  122. 122.

    gwangung

    @Leto: Hmph. Sorry, but I don’t buy that conclusion at all.

    Black women voters will not love Warren like they did Obama….but I don’t see them doing that to ANY of the candidates so far, not even BIden, and certainly not Harris. Their support seems very pragmatic; once a candidate shows they can win white voters, then they will bet on a winner. As well, the growth in her numbers as the second favorite candidate among black voters just doesn’t support that pessimistic viewpoint.

  124. 124.

    Cacti

    Warren’s inability to connect with groups other than college educated whites is a concern, whether the true believing faithful here at Warren-Juice want to acknowledge it or not.

    Hitching her wagon to Wilmer certainly did her no favors with the other groups of the Obama coalition.

  126. 126.

    Marcopolo

    @rikyrah: This is so frustrating. First, this is a distortion of what Warren said (I watched a lot of the segments tonight). Her paraphrased answer was along the lines of “I don’t remember ever being against it.” Which, when you consider her age, might make sense if you personally were okay with same sx marriage but not a vocal supporter until the the last decade or two. I’m in my mid-fifties and when I think of the folks I know (and remember the big shift to majority support on marriage equality started happening about when Obama was elected (mid-30s support) through 2013 (when it cracked 50% for the first time)) there tends to be a generational component to actively supporting. I have always been an active supporter. I think all the folks younger than me that I know have been active supporters. But the folks older than me, not so much. I am friends with several gay & lesbian couples. With two of those gay couples, the men are all 10 or more years older than I am. And while both of these couples have been together more than 25 years neither pair supported gay marriage prior to a half decade ago. As far as I could tell, they were worried that pushing for legal same sex marriage would make their lives more difficult because it might encourage more discriminatory backlash. Yes, really! One of these two couples is legally wed now–it was an amazing ceremony!–the other has not. But using this as some kind of purity test or wedge issue for any candidate, if they have now come around to accepting & supporting same sex marriage is just ridiculous.

    For example, here is an article from 2012 on Elizabeth Warren pushing Barack Obama to evolve on marriage equality: Elizabeth Warren to Obama: Evolve already

    Asked whether she wants Obama to finish evolving and support same-sex marriage, Warren chuckled and responded that was indeed her view.
    “I want to see the president evolve because I believe that is right; marriage equality is morally right,” Warren said.

    Since folks seem to have no memories of how things were even last week anymore I recommend clicking through & reading the article. It is a good reminder of how far we have come since then.

    Finally, since as I mentioned above I did watch a lot of the segments I want close by saying how proud I was of all the candidates I watched: Harris, Warren, O’Rourke, Klobacher, Booker, Mayor Pete–they were all amazing! We have amazing candidates. If anyone else watched any of it I would love to hear their thoughts too.

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne

    @Leto:

    Honestly, if Warren doesn’t win over African American voters, she ain’t getting the nomination. That’s just a fact.

    There are a LOT of Black women who are still pissed that white women hung us all out to dry in 2016, and I think that’s why they’re wary of Warren. I think Warren can close the gap and win them over, but she’s going to have to work hard to do it and not just assume that they’ll come along because what else are they going to do?

    I think it’s good that rikyrah is letting us know that there’s still some skepticism about Warren that’s coming from the most loyal block of Democratic voters, and that it could be a problem if Warren doesn’t explicitly address it. YMMV.

  128. 128.

    Kent

    @piratedan: No, I get it. I honestly have questions about every one of the candidates. Not one of them jumps out at me as the perfect candidate who is heads about the rest. Warren and Harris are my two favorites and Sanders is my least favorite of all the leading candidates. But I honestly just want a win. Every black voter I know pretty much feels the same. This pissy twitter stuff they don’t even know about.

    I’m far from any expert on black women voters other than the few that I know personally who are women that I teach with. And I guaran-fucking-tee they will all be out working their butts off for whoever the nominee is as they hate Trump with the fire of a thousand suns and are Dem and Union activists to boot. So maybe not your typical sample.

    I’m not for taking any constituency for granted. But I also trust whoever our nominee is (likely Warren, Biden or Harris I think) to leave no stone unturned and take no voter for granted. They have ONE FUCKING JOB and that is to win in 2020. And bring as many Dems along with them.
    Nothing else matters.

  129. 129.

    lumpkin

    the “Honest Ads Act” that Warner supports, have stalled.

    What? They just ran outa gas? Got a flat tire? C’mon Bloomberg, the fucking republicans blocked it so the Russians can help them again.

  131. 131.

    Marcopolo

    @Mnemosyne:

    I think it’s good that rikyrah is letting us know that there’s still some skepticism about Warren that’s coming from the most loyal block of Democratic voters, and that it could be a problem if Warren doesn’t explicitly address it. YMMV.

    I am fine with folks expressing their concerns with candidates. All too often, however, the folks that rikyrah tweet quotes are presenting opinions on Warren that are 1) distorted; or 2) just outright not factual. It really reminds me of the kind of crap that David Sirota pushes, like the bullshit “Beto is the dirty candidate of the fossil fuel industry” because X amount of his dollars come from people (who live in Texas where his base is & where the largest industry is oil & gas) who list working for oil & gas companies in their small dollar donations to him, information that is then aggregated to smear him. I realize that politics ain’t beanball but this is similar to the kind of crap that the Russian trolls (and Wilmer bros) were putting out about Hillary & why minority voters (and purity pony folks) shouldn’t vote for her in 2016. Obviously, this stuff is going to happen but I’d like to believe folks here are sophisticated enough not to engage in it.

  132. 132.

    West of the Rockies

    @Mnemosyne:

    My question is this: does a constant drumbeat of negative posting just reveal legitimate skepticism, or does it REINFORCE it and erode potential momentum?

    We (Team Blue) want to win. It is IMPERATIVE because four more years of Trump will be catastrophic. I don’t see the point in pissing all over a very strong, forward-thinking candidate.

  133. 133.

    Kent

    Honestly, after the nomination is over, this election is about winning WI, PA, MI, MN, VA, AZ, NC, FL, CO and on the envelope states like TX and OH. I live in WA and if the race is remotely close here then we are well and truly fucked as is the rest of the country.

    Which of our 4 or so leading candidates is best positioned to win those states? I have absolutely no idea. But if our nominating process is at all competitive like it was in 08 then I have some faith that the right candidate will rise to the top. I’m worried about a lot of things but whether or not African American women get out to support a woman candidate against Trump is not one of them. By the summer of 2020 all this hand wringing and early stuff will be long forgotten and I expect every black woman from Michelle Obama to Oprah to Stacy Abrams to Beyonce will be out working tirelessly to make it happen. It’s my people, the white folk, who I’m worried about.

  134. 134.

    gwangung

    @Cacti:

    Warren’s inability to connect with groups other than college educated whites

    Seems to be a statement unsupported by the data.

    She is not THE FAVORITE candidate of those groups, but she does seem to have some favorability.

    Again, it seems a more tenable conclusion these voters are waiting to see if she can win.

  135. 135.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne:

    I think it’s good that rikyrah is letting us know that there’s still some skepticism about Warren that’s coming from the most loyal block of Democratic voters, and that it could be a problem if Warren doesn’t explicitly address it. YMMV.

    Here’s the thing: when it’s pointed out that her poll numbers are rising (specifically in regard to AA voters), that female AA grass roots organizers are lining up behind her, that she’s the #2 pick behind Biden for AA voters, that her policies are taking into account AA/POC specific issues, that she is specifically addressing it, maybe acknowledge that and readjust your calculus? Or you can do as she’s doing, ignore everything, and keep on reposting the same tweets. YMMV

  136. 136.

    Cacti

    @West of the Rockies:

    My question is this: does a constant drumbeat of negative posting just reveal legitimate skepticism, or does it REINFORCE it and erode potential momentum?

    If anyone on this blog had enough influence to tip the outcome of a national election, President Clinton would be finishing up her first term.

  137. 137.

    Marcopolo

    @gwangung: As far as I can tell you are responding to a lovely pie recipe but here is a fairly recent piece on Warren & her favorability with various groups:

    What’s Behind Elizabeth Warren’s Rise In The Polls?

    Sen. Elizabeth Warren has come a long way in the polls since the early days of her 2020 presidential campaign. Back in April, she was polling in the mid single digits nationally, but she now leads a number of national and early-state polls. And based on polls from September and August, Warren has expanded her support in a few overlapping directions — making inroads with groups and categories of voters she was previously struggling with. The result is that she is now positioned as the leading alternative to former Vice President Joe Biden. Here’s a look at where Warren has made inroads, so far:

    Take a gander at the entire piece if you so choose, lots of good info here.

    And with that I am going to bed.

  138. 138.

    Kent

    Warren is actually LEADING the race according to the most recent national polls. And most of her recent rise seems to have come at the expense of Biden. Does anyone have any cross tabs from CURRENT polling to support any of the assertions here that AA voters are suspicious of her or that she only appeals to college educated whites, or whatever. I’m not talking about old polls or nonsense punditry. But where the race stands today. Don’t show me some South Carolina poll from July.

    I’m not in the tank for Warren. I’m agnostic at the moment but started out as a Harris supporter. I just think all this hand wringing is premature. Whoever makes it through the nominating process is likely to be the best natural politician in the field and the one best able to push through the avalanche of slime that is coming his/her way from all enemies foreign and domestic.

    EDIT: Thanks marcopolo. We cross posted and I missed your link.

  139. 139.

    West of the Rockies

    @Cacti:

    Are you suggesting, sir/madam, that this forum is not a kingmaker? Outrage! Blasphemy! The very idea…

  142. 142.

    JAFD

    @rikyrah: I wore an ‘I Like Ike’ button to Our Lady of Charity parish school in ’56. Perhaps she is not a bad patron saint ???

  143. 143.

    Sister Golden Bear

    As far as Warren and marriage equality, as others have said, this is something pretty much everyone — including with the LGBTQ communities — evolved on during the past 20-30 years. Might I also note that there was also note that the BJ community wasn’t particular supportive of trans people and trans issues only a few years ago, one reason I lurked but didn’t post for a long time.

    So unless someone was actively trying to hurt us in days gone by, I’m far more interested in what they’re doing now, and what they plan to do, to support the LGBTQ communities. (If someone did actively try to hurt us, I’m gonna be more skeptical until they’ve atoned and demonstrated by their actions that they’ve had a change of heart.)

    BTW, I think one reason Harris hasn’t gotten more traction is that the media simply ignores her. For example, Harris also delivered her LBGTQ plan, but I haven’t seen much mention of it outside queer media/Twitter. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that is.

    For the record, my heart is with Harris, but I find Warren also impressive, and I’ll line up behind whichever of them has the best shot at unseating Trump.

  144. 144.

    Starfish

    I saw the same type of LGBT trolling that I see against Warren in that tweet up thread done earlier against Harris on Twitter as well. The critique against Harris may be that she did not support people transitioning fast enough when she was DA. I agree with most of you that it all seems disconnected from historical context. Also with all the discussions of electoral interference by Russia, I wonder if we should all be careful about what tweets we amplify.

  145. 145.

    Mary G

    @Sister Golden Bear: It’s sort of the chicken and the egg question – did Kamala’s press coverage decline, which made her poll standings decline, or vice versa? I know lamh has been furious on Twitter that black male blue checks ignore Harris, and blue checks do drive coverage.

    That said, there is a lot of anger out there, black and white, and I’m guessing that Russia is busy trying to inflame emotions and succeeding. So I’m just not engaging. It gives me a sad when Democrats flame each other.

  146. 146.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Starfish: Some of this is what I think of as “blue shell” action: wboever is in front is going to get aggro, not just Republican/Russian ratfucking but also legit opposition from other candidates’ supporters. Warren’s doing well now so she’s getting a lot lobbed at her. Harris isn’t really getting it now because she’s faded way back. But remember the “#ADOS” nonsense?

  147. 147.

    Elizabelle

    @Jeffro:

    [Other than the top GOP] I’m willing to let the rest of the GOP plead out and ‘only’ live the rest of their lives in shame, provided that they cough up everything they know and say it in public.

    I’m not willing. They need to face criminal penalty. Think of how they wanted to crucify Hillary Clinton for a madeup scandal, Benghazi!

    Do not show them mercy. Show them justice. Hit them so hard that those who come a few years after them won’t even dream of corrupting our political system like that.

  148. 148.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Mnemosyne: Skepticism is one thing. She’s been posting tweets here that claim AA voters will stay home in the general election if Warren is the nominee. She’s posting it often enough that I’ve considered pieing her, because if it’s true, then I have to find a way to flee the country. We’re done.

  149. 149.

    Aimai

    @rikyrah: Jesus. Stop it. I donate money to both warren and harris. They are both fine candidates. Did we learn nothing from 2016? It is not necessary to destroy other democrats to support your candidate. Both Warren and Harris can be good choices and great presidents. The idea that Warren is evil/lying/anti lgbtq is disinformation and psyops. They did the same thing to HRC. Stop pushing this crap.

  150. 150.

    JR

    @piratedan: Obama took a while to catch on with black voters, too. I can’t speak for the psychology of it but I imagine people who have more to lose from a continued Trump regime are going to be more cautious in their candidate preference.

  151. 151.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: If it’s true, then I welcome her warning us about it.

    Warren is my favorite candidate, and for that reason, I do have suspicions about her electability. Presidential candidates I like tend to do poorly–Barack Obama was the one exception. There are times when I think I should be supporting Biden because I hate him, which probably means he’s the one who can win.

  153. 153.

    Barbara

    @Immanentize: I donate monthly to both Harris and Warren and Harris as well as all other candidates need to siphon support from Biden and Sanders. Trashing Warren helps Biden not Harris. I only wish it were otherwise.

  155. 155.

    Gvg

    I remember thinking gay marriage was an odd idea that would never happen. I couldn’t even understand what the point was. Well I had some long time gay friends so I asked them what they thought. Then I thought about it for awhile and evolved. I won’t follow criticism of someone else for evolving.it also mattered that I could see society as a whole was coming round on the issue. It simply wouldn’t have been possible without that, and seeing others change, made it possible for the idea to work. If society had not evolved, I would have looked for other ways to try to protect them.

  156. 156.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I do think we *don’t* have to worry too much about nominating a candidate who will then fail in the general because of black voters staying home. If a candidate’s support really is just bourgeois white liberals and she can’t get a substantial chunk of the black vote, she’s not going to win the Democratic primary. Black voters are *more* important in the primary race.

    I’m not actually going to vote for Biden in the primary but if the guy does win the nomination, I’ll take it in stride; it probably means he’s the most viable choice. I’m a bit suspicious of the claims that Warren is now the actual frontrunner, rather than a strong second; the polls are all over the place and results seem to vary wildly depending on the details of likely-voter screens. That’s probably because of huge generational splits, with older white and black voters leaning strongly toward Biden and younger ones supporting anyone else.

  158. 158.

    Chris Johnson

    There is NOWHERE (even a ‘top 10,000 blog’) that is really free of GRU ratfucking. This time it’s Rikyrah… well, last time around it was me. I got played good and hard, along with my home-state lefty Bernie. I think I got wise quicker than he did, but maybe it was around the same time as he did fire Tad Devine.

    They heighten the contraditions. They look for legitimate, real stuff to highlight, and then play on that, and they’re not worried about making a logical case about it: it’s a thing called ‘the Zone’ where nobody can really know anything and tearing away all support, all trust, is the whole point. For me, Harris is definitely my second pick, but there’s a reason Rikyrah isn’t citing Harris as the real best hope of the Democrats: when you’re in the Zone, you CAN’T really rely on anybody and all you’re doing is sounding desperate warnings about whoever is the biggest threat, the huge problem ready to happen. And if they win the primary, OH YES those huge problems are going to show up, just like they would have with Bernie… because it’s exactly the same channels being used for both, and damn straight Rikyrah would be hearing ‘first’ hand about these huge problems because ‘everybody’ will be talking about them all of a sudden, her bubble will be 24/7 the huge problems.

    Twitter, Reddit, Facebook: completely owned channels of propaganda operated by the Russians for all intents and purposes. Run by either frothing rightwingers in bed with Putin, or Nietzschean Silicon Valley multibillionaires who figure they are really the ones in control and are allying with the Russians to serve their own interests. You CANNOT take these places at face value, so that’s just what they would have you do: you’re meant to think you can get a sense of the vox populi from Twitter, from Reddit (easier to spot the manipulation there: view as ‘new’ and watch for downvote brigading), from Facebook. And they are in some cases completely swarmed by agents and bots there to manipulate people (twitter, reddit) and in other cases (facebook) they are ACTIVELY experiments to manipulate people. See the Facebook experiments where they tried to see if they could make people more or less depressed by manipulating their timelines, see how Zuckerberg’s got current policies stating it’s OK for Facebook to run outright lies as a form of advertising, much like Fox News got policy allowing them to do that very thing.

    Rikyrah is not wholly to blame here.

    Get the fuck off Twitter. And Facebook, if you’re seeing more than a very local group of people. Grandma’s status updates are probably OK. I’ve blocked so many people for reposting political stuff that my Facebook is a ghost town, and I follow 22 people on Twitter. Get off these platforms, make sure there’s nothing ‘social’ in them for you. Keep ’em so personal that you’re fairly shielded from the Russian armies of propagandists or you will be like me, looking back on a time period (thank GOD I still got myself and friends and family to vote for Hillary) where you fell in with a bad crowd.

    Rikyrah, if you are not actually a troll posting from Moscow (and my own experience indicates you’re most likely NOT), get the fuck off twitter.

  159. 159.

    Dev Null

    @West of the Rockies:

    Are you suggesting, sir/madam, that this forum is not a kingmaker? Outrage! Blasphemy! The very idea…

    What’s good for Balloon Juice commenters is good for the country!

  160. 160.

    Miss Bianca

    @dmsilev: Yeah, 30 years ago the radical queers I hung out with sneered at the concept of marriage at all, derided those LBGQ who wanted it (‘T’ was a blip on *everyone’s* radar screens at that point) and described heterosexual couples as “breeders”. And I have to admit that consciously or unconsciously, my stand on gay marriage was informed by that. Until it wasn’t.

    So yeah…the length of time you’ve supported the concept of gay marriage is not necessarily the best rubric for marking someone down on progressive values. After all, you could claim Joe Biden was the *real* champion of gay marriage rights in the Obama Administration, nicht wahr?

  162. 162.

    StringOnAStick

    @Miss Bianca: I recall that at the time I supported civil unions because many in th e LGBT community thought that was a less incendiary option for the religious right arrayed against them. I wanted a civil union option for my husband and I because I wanted state enforced religious crap out of our relationship too, hetero or not. I really didn’t think marriage equality was going to become the dominant position as quickly as it did, but I’m sure glad it did.

  163. 163.

    J R in WV

    @Leto:

    You, know, I don’t agree with rikyrah on this. I’m Warren/Harris and we’ve contributed to Harris and will contribute to Warren. But you’ve spent this whole thread dumping on rikyrah and I have to admit that I don’t see the point to repeating the same thing over and over. It gets tedious and might tend to drive a person I like away from the blog.

    With the exception of her off and on slagging of Senator Warren, she contributes a lot to the blog, especially with regard to Black consciousness issues. You of course bring a lot to the blog from your life experiences. I like you too. My point here is that driving people you disagree with on one thing away from B-J is the only way to kill B-J off, because we all disagree on something.

  164. 164.

    Chris Johnson

    @J R in WV: This. I don’t want to see Rikyrah driven away any more than I wanted to be driven away (and there’s some folks who had me pegged as literally a Russian poster in my Bernie phase). I didn’t get driven away, and I woke up and realized some of the crowd I was hanging around with were untrustworthy, and sometimes literally being fed disinformation that played along with their prejudices. We KNOW how this works.

    That’s what’s happening now. It never stopped. And the thing which makes it so hard to defend against is that we have such a hard time understanding the ‘other’ at the best of times. It’s always tempting to believe somebody is a total work because they’re expressing stuff that seems contrary to commonly accepted reality… but there’s not that much of ‘commonly accepted’ in the Democratic Party, we’re a big tent and different wings of the party seem alien to each other and WE ARE ALL WE’VE GOT. There is no other refuge. There are no safe havens, either on the right or on the left: republicans and ‘dirtbag left’ alike are puppet movements controlled by Russia. We’re all we’ve got.

    GTFOT. (and facebook.) Understand that we never stopped being manipulated, and it isn’t only ‘them over there’, the manipulation is everywhere and in all directions because distrust and disunity and ‘the Zone’ are the point, it never does have to make sense or be consistent. Get off Twitter and remember we’re the big tent full of contradictions, and we will get through all this. Disunity is not a superpower unless you insist that everybody has to behave. We’re Democrats, we never behave :)

  165. 165.

    UncleEbeneezer

    My question about AA voters in the South: why are we only hand-wringing about Warren’s challenge of appealing to them, when Harris faces the same challenge?

    Recent polling in SC shows Biden 46%, Harris 10%, Warren 9%, amongst Dem/Dem-leaning voters. If the argument is that not gaining enough traction in the Primary = Risk in the General Election, then it applies almost as much to Harris. Like, if you are seriously worried by this, you should be just as worried about the prospect of Harris as the nominee. I’m not. I think Biden has a unique edge for obvious reasons and it’s still very early, a lot can change, etc.

    Note: I love BOTH candidates, and will happily support either of them (I will support any Dem candidate, but these two are at the top of my list) but it definitely seems like a double-standard to freak out about 9% but not about 10%. I’ve seen some of this Warren-bashing from Harris-supporters I know and I’m over it. It’s way too similar to the Hillary-bashing I saw from Bernie Bros in 2016 and I have no interest in adding to the propaganda that Russia/TheGOP will use to divide us and encourage people not to vote, personally, so I ignore most of this stuff and try not to engage or share it.

    https://www.winthrop.edu/winthroppoll/current-findings.aspx

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