President Donald Trump falsely claimed on Thursday that the United States has no troops in Syria.
Trump was defending his decision to remove American troops from a part of northern Syria that Turkey wanted to attack. Speaking to reporters on the White House lawn, Trump asserted, “We have no soldiers in Syria.”“We’ve won, we beat ISIS, and we beat ’em badly and decisively. We have no soldiers. The last thing I want to do is bring thousands and thousands of soldiers in and defeat everybody again. We’ve already done that,” Trump said.
Facts First: The US still has about 1,000 soldiers in Syria, military officials have told CNN and other news outlets, and the troops Trump removed from the area of the Turkish incursion offensive were not removed from the country
.
Jonathan Hoffman, chief Pentagon spokesman, said in a statement on Tuesday: “We have made no changes to our force presence in Syria at this time.”
Less than an hour after Trump made his Thursday claim that there are “no soldiers in Syria,” a senior State Department official told reporters that the US military mission in Syria is ongoing.“We had and still have a significant military mission there to ensure the enduring defeat of ISIS, also to maintain the stability of northeast Syria and the region given our other critical missions in the Near East,” the official said on a conference call conducted on condition of anonymity.
Not only do we have troops in the region, but, well, the inevitable has happened:
A contingent of U.S. Special Forces has been caught up in Turkish shelling against U.S.-backed Kurdish positions in northern Syria, days after President Donald Trump told his Turkish counterpart he would withdraw U.S. troops from certain positions in the area.
Newsweek has learned through both an Iraqi Kurdish intelligence official and senior Pentagon official that Special Forces operating on Mashtenour hill in the majority-Kurdish city of Kobani fell under artillery fire from Turkish forces conducting their so-called “Operation Peace Spring” against Kurdish fighters backed by the U.S. but considered terrorist organizations by Turkey.
The senior Pentagon official said that Turkish forces should be aware of U.S. positions “down to the grid.” The official could not specify the exact number of personnel present, but indicated they were “small numbers below company level,” so somewhere between 15 and 100 troops.
Five Isis militants have broken out of a prison in northern Syria after Turkish shelling nearby, a spokesman in the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) has said.
The detainees escaped from a prison in Qamishli city, Marvan Qamishlo said.
In times like these I calm myself by chanting my favorite soothing mantras- “pallets of money on the airstrip” and “but her emails.”
GregB
It is as if this was a deliberate plan to humiliate the US.
MattF
Is there some reason to suppose that Trump was being truthful?
mrmoshpotato
My mantras are “Ewww, Hillary!” and “Both sides are equally bad!”
Both said in a whiny voice.
The Dangerman
So, cocaine use has it’s drawbacks. Who knew?
When the Turks kill the SpecOp(s) there will be hell to pay.
Cheryl Rofer
When I saw the title on Twitter, I knew who the author was.
FWIW,
mrmoshpotato
@MattF: Is there ever a reason to suppose Dump is being truthful?
Aside from him lusting after his own daughter. “Haha, it’s a joke that I want to bang my hot daughter, libtards!”
Sloane Ranger
@The Dangerman: Trump – “Shit happens. They knew what they signed up for. Thoughts and prayers.”
And a significant number of US military personnel will continue to support him and Republican politicians excuse him.
cain
We now go to Jefro’s dad for comment.
So now our troops are in danger because our President didn’t evacuate them properly, didn’t even do his homework. Just made a decision and walked away and now our troops are in danger.
He and the Republicans need to be hammered.
How come I still don’t see any Democratic full court press? Where is the DNC? Where are the ads on Fox News? I don’t get it. There should be a big spread in the NYT or something that says “Save our troops!” within the next few days.
Trump will meekly say nothing. Dick.
Chetan Murthy
@The Dangerman:
I kinda doubt that, though if we had any sort of sense of duty to those we ask to put themselves in harm’s way, there would be. I mean, look at the USS Liberty incident: nothing changed after that, right? We let Israel sell our secrets to the Chinese, after all, with no repercussions. And of course with Don Bedsore at the helm, I can only believe he views other people’s lives as mere casino chips …. purchased by his father.
Gin & Tonic
What the fuck does that even mean? I’m reminded of the old saw about the only way two people can keep a secret is if one of them is dead.
Betty Cracker
Oops, they did it again:
I swear to Christ, the only quality this administration has in more abundance than evil is incompetence. They are comically inept.
Jeffro
@cain: LOL…please stand by for comment from RWNJD…not that I couldn’t script it myself at this point. He’ll just say “yeah, well, novice president” or maybe “he was probably badly advised” but we’ll see…
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker:
Maybe someone in the communications office is trying to help?
cain
@Betty Cracker:
They must be doing it on purpose. It’s a cry for help.
debit
@Betty Cracker: At this point I have to wonder if some low lever intern is doing it on purpose.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Betty Cracker: I’m beginning to hope there’s a mole in the WH doing it on purpose.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker: Just adds to the chaos so who knows…how does the saying go again? “Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action?”
Never mind, using “trumpov’s Razor” has never failed us before…they’re just screw-ups…
cain
@Jeffro:
Ask him if he supports the troop and what he thinks about a President who not only didn’t know there was troops there, but did not arrange for them to get out of harms way and does he agree that the President way out of his depth if he allows his troops to come in harms way by amateurish decisions that seems even obvious to him that it was the wrong thing to do?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Betty Cracker:
What do they say, once is an accident, the second is coincidence, the third is a pattern? Maybe this is being done on purpose?
tokyokie
@Chetan Murthy: I agree the U.S. will do nothing. Turkey will claim it’s a big mistake, but my guess is that the U.S. troops were in or near a site Turkey wanted to attack, and Erdogan didn’t care, because he knows full well that Lord Fathead is a craven coward who won’t do a damn thing.
Leto
I would be happy in the fact that I was retiring, in the next month or two, if I didn’t still have family and friends in the military, or the fact that we still have the dumbest motherfucker alive deciding wtf happens to both my family and friends.
@Chetan Murthy:
They might have sold some, but it’s open knowledge that our defense contractors IT security is so shitty that it took the Chinese about 10 secs to hack into most databases and Hoover it all up. The fact that China’s newest plane looks a hell of a lot like the YF-23 isn’t an accident. There’s also the fact that Chinese hackers were able to penetrate USAF servers and Hoover up a metric fuck ton of information, though that one didn’t receive any press coverage at all. Jeebus, the way the Chinese did it was so simplistic too…
germy
Now we know what William Barr was up to during that dinner with Rupert Murdoch?
jl
As I typed in previous thread, only a completely ignorant complete idiot would not see the inevitability of nasty incidents like this one, bombing US troops, from Turkey’s rash and unwise (or everyone, including itself) ‘incursion’. What is also clear is that Edorgan is not even going through to motions of pretending give a dried rat shit about his promises to the idiot doofus Trump, or stated preferences and needs of US foreign policy. Bascially yelling though deeds ‘Hey, sucks to be you, suckers’. And only a completely ignorant complete idiot would expect otherwise from the likes of Erdogan, and what he had done and is doing to Turkey.
cain
@Chetan Murthy:
It’s hell to pay because the Commander in Chief doesn’t know where his troops are and puts them in harms way.
Leto
@Betty Cracker: @Immanentize: Maybe it was the author of that NYT Op-Ed: We are the secret hands that guide the government, we’ll make sure nothing bad happens! (*emails talking points to Dems, pats self on back)
cain
@germy:
Surprised that he lasted this long.
Leto
@germy: Maybe Chris Wallace will take the hint? I’m sure we’ll find out.
NotMax
Quite possibly the most Water Is Wet headline on B-J ever.
;)
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@germy:
I bet Chris Wallace won’t last much longer
jl
Link to the text of
War is a Racket, Smedley Butler
ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
Let’s see how Mattis measures up on his book tour appearance this weekend, on Press the Meet, I think. Or maybe Faceplant Nation.
Elizabelle
@germy: Fox is losing its fig leaf? LOL.
Not that we could not see it was dicks all the way down anyway.
I wonder where Shepherd Smith will land. I hope he does not have to honor a noncompete. I wish him well.
jl
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: The very corrupt Fox News brass repeatedly ordered Shep Smith to stand down on actually reporting the news. Looks like Shep Smith said ‘No’.
@Elizabelle: I only see clips of Shep Smith, so I have no idea about the quality of his work overall. But from what I’ve seen, he’s often done much better than the likes of Chuck Todd or Andrea Mitchell.
Chetan Murthy
@Leto:
Well, there’s being incompetent enough to get robbed, and then there’s giving secrets to an ostensible ally who has no problem shopping those secrets to our adversaries. And the latter is much worse. And this wasn’t some sort of secret thing — it was quite clear that Israel was doing this, and reported as such by reputable media (in the instance, Foreign Policy IIRC).
Betty Cracker
Trump was rating Fox News personalities for the crowd at last night’s hate rally. He’s a big fan of two of the grinning couch idiots on the morning show and said the other had improved to a 7.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@jl:
Do you think this is going to rebound on Turkey via meatgrinder in Syria? All Turkey is doing is making the region unsafe and turning Kurds (ironically) into terrorists with this war. Russian forces were also reportedly helping Turkish forces in some capacity. Perhaps Putin is manipulating Sultan Erdogan? None of these guys, Trump, Erdogan, or Putin are playing with a full deck imo. Most of the most powerful nations on Earth are ruled by idiots and madmen
donnah
So Trump at his rally last night announced that there are no longer American troops in Syria, which we all know is a lie. Also, he bragged that we won in Syria and no longer need to have a military presence there. And he reiterated that he wants US troops out of all foreign countries.
But he just sent 1500 America troops to Saudi Arabia as protection against Iranian forces.
So I guess the Saudis spent more money buying weapons from us than the Kurds did.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy: I doubt this was the purpose of Barr’s visit. This is something trump would have taken care of over the phone
cain
@donnah:
We are for hire. We’re now simply thugs that dictators can pay money to and we show up.
waratah
I learned about those special forces the first day. I hoped to hear an uproar about them right away, but your post is the first I have seen. Thank you John.
Immanentize
@Leto:
Chris Wallace was critical to Fox’s early days credibility. He was very right wingy but his nepotism connection to his Dad is what helped Fox portray as a serious news organization. Now, he is tepid in his push backs but probably too far from “Droid with restraining bolt” for Fox to suffer.
Jeffro
Btw for those who are interested, the first and second stories on Fox News dot com right now are
1) “Ex-Ukraine ambassador denies being anti-trumpov”
2) “Don Jr. rages against double standard for Hunter Biden”
That second one is so up-is-down, it’s going to open up a space time wormhole if they’re not careful…but aren’t they just so diabolically clever in phrasing the first one. “WE REPORTED ON HER TESTIMONY, LIBTARDS!! FAIR AND BALANCED!!!1!”
Assholes
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: Agreed, but Israel didn’t sell off the YF-23/F-22 plans. Also the amount of information that was taken from US defense contractors, after they were repeatedly told to upgrade their shit and they didn’t, along with the what was taken from the USAF (how much reporting did you see on that? I’m not sure you understand how much that fundamentally restructured how we did our internal information sharing/networks)… yeah, Israel sold some shit but our own people simply ignored wtf was going on. For me that’s worse.
jl
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??: I have no clue. Maybe Adam or Cheryl can put up post with some guesses about what is really going on. What Erdogan (I refuse to insult Turkey by conflating them) is doing is so outsize and counterproductive to the overhyped problem of Kurd terrorists hiding among the Syrian Kurdish forces (which seems to be real, but it was being solved, just too slowly for Erdogan’s tastes), that I think it has to be pretext for something else.
I too have to wonder if Erdogan is playing with a full deck anymore. He was very astute and clever in managing Turkey at the beginning, and in consolidating authoritarian power in Turkey early in his rule, maybe he’s gotten cocky arrogant and stupid. No so pathetically stupid that he can’t roll up Trump like a thin worn out Turkish rug, of course.
Chetan Murthy
@Jeffro:
Be damn funny if that’s how they’d actually spelled it (obvs. would be fixed in minutes).
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@donnah:
You mean rent more room at a Trump hotel. Fat Donny is really that petty.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: To be clear: I’m sure Barr’s visit was about something far more nefarious, something that will do more to advance Barr’s agenda and Murdoch’s power and profits.
Elizabelle
@Jeffro: Liking how the LA Times is covering your item 2:
[related story:] Trump’s attacks on Biden follow a playbook he’s practiced for more than 30 years
Not liking that SoCal is suffering wind-driven wildfires. The Saddleridge fire, started in Sylmar. Has already killed an 89 year old in a mobile home.
NotMax
@Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yup. Sounds a lot more like Lachlan flexing his muscles at Fox than Rupert in his éminence grise capacity (he’s always been an éminence gross.)
Ella in New Mexico
OT I know, but what, exactly, is the point of these two and their continued Stunts of Ass-hattery? it’s like they’re parodying themselves now.
MEDIA ALERT: Jack Burkman and Jacob Wohl to hold press conference with Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff’s former drug dealer
Jeezus
Chetan Murthy
@Leto:
I don’t know what to say. Our ALLY SOLD US OUT. It doesn’t matter whether it was large or small — They SOLD US OUT.
Here’s an example I found with 5sec of googling: military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china
And I’m sure this isn’t the only one, b/c the incident I recalled was from before Obama was President.
And let me say: You’re engaging in “whataboutism”.
NotMax
@jl
All Erdogan has to do to wrap Dolt 45 around his little finger is roll out the magic word “terrorists.”
germy
Elizabelle
In whole, the LA Times article: Shepard Smith is leaving Fox News
Fox saying it was his decision. Would you leave just as impeachment gears up? Is he going somewhere else?
This is not when you decide to take more time with your family, or grow bonsais.
jl
@Ella in New Mexico: Where can they go from fake S&M bondage tales, and a combat decorated former US Marine bodybuilder who can’t get through his script without giggling, and was outed as a fraud in real time during their presser? They should have saved the Warren stunt for later.
They could to 100 percent camp, and put up a poster with a pic from Reefer Madness.
Edit if the drug was marijuana, they’d have to refer to it as ‘reefer’ all the way through to to make it really funny. They set a high standard for themselves with the Warren stunt. Hard to top for laff riot action.
Kay
She probably talked to a real lawyer before testifying. “Thanks but no thanks, fellas. I’m good”
Mary G
Donald the Dove, Hillary the Hawk, my ass. She would’ve told Erdogan to pound sand.
Gravenstone
@Cheryl Rofer: Ordnance disposal prior to evacuation?
Chetan Murthy
@Chetan Murthy: Oh and another thing: remember when Don Bedsore blabbed about that secret Israel intel regarding ISIS, to the Russians in the Oval Office? Remember the enormous ruckus from all quarters? Remember The Great And The Good talking about how when Don Bedsore came into office, our spies warned their spies to be more close-to-the-vest with their intel, b/c our spies had no belief that Don Bedsore could be trusted not to leak that shit? It was written-up in The New Yorker, ffs.
And yet, Israel sells our secrets to our adversaries, and NOBODY notices.
Look: yeah, I think we have lots of feeble and feckless corporate elites. But there’s a difference between fecklessness and ENEMY ACTION.
I know it’s unfashionable, but I’m a PATRIOT that way.
Martin
@Ella in New Mexico: Get your money, white man.
That’s all it is and has ever been.
Amir Khalid
@Ella in New Mexico:
This kind of repeated self-harm by Burkman and Wohl cries out for some knd of intervention.
Gravenstone
@Betty Cracker: First time accident, second time coincidence. I think they’re quickly approaching an (internal) “enemy” action situation. Someone inside is working to undercut them.
The Moar You Know
@germy: No prior announcement = fired.
“Stepping down” my ass. And I might add that any career move for him will be a “step up”.
NotMax
@jl
And yet whatever the next crap they come with may be, it will beget the same breathless, ‘this is my concerned face’ coverage. MSM could just as well stand for mainstream masochists.
Kent
@jl:
Praising Shep Smith because he isn’t 100% in the tank for the Trump propaganda machine is sort of like praising Ted Cruz for not being 100% behind the Trump propaganda machine. You give him about 1% credit and then realize you are still dealing with Ted Cruz. l mean seriously, Shep Smith has been a shameless GOP mouthpiece and overt liar for decades. He doesn’t get credit for being Walter Cronkite or Edward R Murrow now just because he finally found his limit now that the Trump machine is finally teetering and all the rats are starting to jump ship.
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@Kay:
Made me think of the Soviet NKVD. Yeah, who wants to talk to a spy?
jl
@Elizabelle: That’s a lie, at least by Abraham Lincoln’s standard. Fox brass has been repeated warning Smith with dire consequences if Smith did not stand down on giving honest news and analysis. It was almost surely a resign or get fired with prejudice situation. I wonder how much time was left on his contract. They could have threatened to bottle him up if he didn’t find a way to get out with minimum embarrassment to the corrupt Fox News brass.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Is pointing and laughing considered an intervention?
??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??
@jl:
Thanks. They probably will at some point soon I imagine
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: I don’t think you understand how a “whataboutism” works. I’m assigning a value to both actions and I find defense contractors who have been repeatedly, for over a decade, to upgrade their cyber security because the fucking Chinese are stealing all of our most secret plans to be worse. You in turn find the Israeli situation worse. I disagree.
@Immanentize:
Legit LOL.
NotMax
@Kent
Uh huh. Tokens are for subways.
jl
@Kent: I said I was not familiar with his work overall, so I think refrained from anything that can be characterized as praise. Clearly from time to time, he did work that was too honest for the corrupt Fox News brass.
Edit: what Fox News does is so horrendously dishonest, that I think even a token serves some use there, for the Fox News viewers who get honest reporting from time to time. Whether Smith will be able to do a good job anyplace else, or will be pathetic mess like Kelly, remains to be seen.
Kay
@??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??:
Would you want a Trumpov lawyer? Of course not. They’re for things like hiding the Presidents crimes on top secret servers. She needs legal advice, not illegal advice.
Elizabelle
I wonder if Fox is pleasing their number one viewer because they know that when he loses, they are looking at the Fairness Doctrine or something even more stringent.
Doubling down on the lies and craziness.
Avalune
Can’t wait for Trump to break out the lie detector tests for all white house staff to figure out who keeps leaking. Assuming they aren’t using it as some kind of weird strategy and doing it intentionally.
I guess Erwhateverduon must have had some good dirt on Joe Biden? [I could edit to fix the spelling catastrophe of his name but I don’t care that much.]
NotMax
@The Moar You Know
I suspect Tucker Carlson’s fingerprints are all over this, much in the same way Tweety had Phil Donahue axed for not falling in line re: Iraq.
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: Please, explain the difference between a country who sells our secrets and the people who simply give them away for free. Why pay for the milk when you can get it for free? I expect Israel to fuck us over. They’ve been doing it for decades now.
Yeah, yeah, you’re a patriot.
BC in Illinois
Leto
@Elizabelle: I wish they’d bring back the Fairness Doctrine. Need to start somewhere.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
The Fairness Doctrine never applied to cable, only to over the air broadcasting.
Chetan Murthy
@Leto:
From Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Methods
I point out that A is bad
In response, you point out that B is worse than A
That fits the textbook definition of whataboutism, my good man.
germy
@NotMax: “No one at Fox criticizes Tucker Swanson McNear Carlson on-air and gets away with it!”
Elizabelle
@The Moar You Know:
The FTF NYTimes agrees with you. Their headline, breaking news, and the whole item so far:
Shep Smith, Fox News Anchor, Abruptly Departs from Network
** the projection in Carlson’s statement. It’s blinding me!
Avalune
Patronizing.
germy
@NotMax:
Couldn’t it be updated for the 21st century?
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: Nothing like breaking out the dictionary links to really drive home the patriot point. Oh noes, you totally got me!!!!
jl
Forgot to thank Cole for using the euphemism ‘fathead’ in the title of the post. This is America’s premier miserable lefty (edit: almost top 10,000) family blog, and from what I understand, has to pay for itself.
OTOH, or maybe families that would frequent this blog have a permissive approved vocabulary.
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Yeah. That needs to be rectified.
Democracy and Fox News are not compatible. The brainwashing makes our country ungovernable. On purpose. We would never have Trump if Fox and Rush and the other garbagemouths had not salted the fields.
Chetan Murthy
@Leto:
I don’t even know why you chose this hill to die on, man. I adduced the example of Israel not being much of an ally in support of a completely different point. But since you ask:
When a general mismanages his motor pool and hence his troops cannot participate in action, that’s (or used to be) grounds for court-martial — for mismanagement of resources assigned to his command in support of his mission. When a spy damages those same motorized equipment, that’s espionage.
That we don’t punish and correct these defense contractors’ incompetence and dereliction, is a bad thing. That you can’t seem to see the difference between incompetence/dereliction and out and out betrayal, blows my mind.
germy
@Elizabelle:
Did they learn that from Newt Gingrich or Karl Rove?
Leto
@germy: I would hope so. We also need to tackle social media. Is this where we point out that the people crafting the legislation need to understand the technology involved? (That last sentence is pure snark, though I understand why people say that)
Elizabelle
@germy: I dunno. They’re all sick fucking puppies.
With apologies to puppies.
germy
@Leto:
Zuckerberg needs a flying tackle. He quietly changed the rules so that the trump campaign can post blatant lies on facebook.
Elizabelle
The New York Times is going there. More additions to their breaking news story:
Or being hit by a clue by four?
jl
@germy: At least this time he is leaving enough clear enough fingerprints that iFB can be very credibly and publicly accused of being corrupt and unreliable .
Leto
@Chetan Murthy: Oh, he’s going to try to military explain shit to the military guy using bad examples! It gets better!
The fact that you don’t understand why most service members see the betrayal that the defense contractors did as worse, (checks quote) blows my mind. But I do love that you keep on trying to explain this. Please proceed, governor.
mrmoshpotato
@jl:
And claim Pelosi and Schiff love the latest craze sweeping the nation – hot jazz!
NotMax
@germy
Not as pat as that, as cable networks do not use the limited resource of the public airwaves, plus there is no license in the offing which(on paper) is subject to revocation for non-compliance.
Simplistic, but all Fox would have to do is change their name from Fox News to Fox Information, or Fox Speaks, or Fox Blurgh, or whatever, to skirt around by necessity elastic cable news content strictures.
The Moar You Know
@cain: There’s a link in this very thread to “War is a Racket” by General Smedley Butler. We’ve been that hired thug for over 100 years.
mrmoshpotato
@Mary G:
And told Putin to choke on a bag of salted, star-spangled dicks.
Just Chuck
@Leto: @Chetan Murthy:
Could one or the other of you kindly shut one or both of your respective fucking pie holes?
Leto
@germy: Agreed; I was listening to a report that stated that we basically have different rules for each platform. Each platform is making up the rules as they go. Again if companies could ethically manage themselves, we probably wouldn’t need regulations. Anyways, just another item to add to the list of shit we have to fix. (Checks list, see an infinite number of things)
janesays
@Kent: Suggesting that Shep Smith is the ideological twin of Ted Cruz kind of destroys your credibility. The dude’s not an ultra-lefty progressive, but he’s also not a fire-breathing wingnut, as you seem to be suggesting.
BC in Illinois
Avalune
@Leto: I’m kind of thinking you expect bad actors to be bad actors but you hold your own to a higher standard… but what do I know about things that do not involve dogs or knitting?
Elizabelle
New thread up. On Shep Smith, no longer at Fox “News.”
The Moar You Know
@germy: The easy answer is no. The FCC has enormous power to regulate radio and television as they are carried over-the-air, which is, under US law, public property.
Cable isn’t regulated by the FCC at all, it’s on a wired network. In order to regulate cable, the FCC would have to be given the power to regulate all wired communications – and that would include the internet.
Not sure I want to hand Ajit Pai that kind of power. Actually, I’m VERY sure I don’t want to hand any Republican that kind of power.
We need to let go of the Fairness Doctrine. It didn’t work well even when we had it, and if implemented today would simply allow some Jesus freak to come on after every Sesame Street episode to explain to the kids why Bert and Ernie are godless homosexuals who will have their reward in hell.
Gin & Tonic
@Avalune: Get a room.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Much as I might loathe them, we either have free speech or we don’t. It’s a price we pay for that asset.
Leto
@Gin & Tonic: In an hour she’ll have one! *wokka wokka wokka
@NotMax: Did we not have free speech during the Fairness Doctrine? Not saying that what we had before was a shining example on the hill (thinking the Hearst newspaper empire), but it wasn’t the absolute raw sewage that we have today. I’d also as that we look at other countries that both have free speech and responsible journalism at the same time (I know, I’m a liberal commie for even suggesting that).
mrmoshpotato
@Avalune: Dogs now know how to knit? Oh the times we live in!
Elizabelle
@NotMax:
I have come to disagree with that blunt a statement. You cannot out-free speech propaganda and brainwashing. It is a different delivery system, particularly in broadcast form.
I don’t think a propaganda outlet whose purpose is destabilizing democracies for the benefit of plutocrats should be hiding behind the First Amendment.
We have to figure out a way to deal with bad actors like this. Boy Scoutism isn’t going to do it. They have weaponized their delivery system.
Elizabelle
@Leto: Canada apparently would handle Fox News differently. I need to learn up on that.
They recognize the danger and destabilizing potential.
NotMax
@Leto
The bringing up of free speech was more a reaction to the commenter’s example of Limbaugh and the like’s venomous spewing.
Craig
@The Moar You Know: While cable news does not use the airwaves, which belong to the public, every cable provider i know of needs the same easements that all utility companies use to deliver across private and public property… IANAL, but that would seem to open the door to regulations like the Fairness Doctrine.
Leto
@Elizabelle: I was also thinking of Finland and how they handle disinformation being spewed by Russian bots via social media. They actually put up PSAs talking to their citizens about what to look for, and how to handle it.
@NotMax: Ah, got it.
jonas
Hannity runs Fox News as the High Prophet of Trump’s cult of deplorables and has had the Murdochs’ balls in a jar in his office ever since Ailes shuffled his skeezy lardass off this mortal coil. He has made his displeasure towards Smith and Wallace known for some time.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
From A Man For All Seasons:
Elizabelle
@ NotMax:
No, I think we need a different framework for this.
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Educating the general public to recognize propaganda (as well as question self-appointed “authorities”) would be a nice start.
‘Scuse me for a bit, my unicorn is snuffling that it’s past glitter-feeding time. ;)
Elizabelle
@NotMax: Yeah. That’s important. I am not sure what we can do. But want to find out.
Bill Arnold
There is hope for the U.S. Press when a mainstream publication publishes writing like this.
Leto
@NotMax: What we’re currently doing, relying on the general public to educate themselves, isn’t working. I’m in agreement with @Elizabelle: , that we need to do something because the setup isn’t working.
Mind sending some glitter? I’m hungry ;)
Avalune
@mrmoshpotato: Man, I could get so much more accomplished if I could get my dog to help with the knitting – or at least some housework the lazy schlub.
Avalune
@Gin & Tonic: Rude! Lol
Bill Arnold
@NotMax:
Helping members of the press to improve their ability to recognize propaganda (and narrative-feeding and etc) is a good start, and achievable. E.g. work reporter twittter, include bylines in references to stories with bylines, other small tricks to attempt to coax people out of bubbles.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Or is someone in T team actually trying to help the Ds.
Ladyraxterinok
@Leto: @Just Chuck:
I pay attn to both commenters. Value them both. Don’t really understand anger in their back and forth.
Except we all are very angry and sick at heart now as we watch Trump and his gang destroy what has taken so long to create!
NotMax
@Leto
Only if you sincerely promise to clean your bowl. There are unicorns starving in China.
:)
debbie
@Ella in New Mexico:
Did Kamala’s trainer ever show up?
Mnemosyne
@Mary G:
Most of the Twitter “pacifists” are actually isolationists and wanted the US out of any overseas areas regardless of the consequences. Even pacifists are usually okay with helping people defend themselves at their request.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
Murdochian Slip?
NotMax
@Avalune
Totally, purposely silly, but worth it for the ‘rational thinking’ dog – Absolutely Anything.
:)
Elizabelle
@debbie: Yeah. I saw that too. Hmmmm.
topclimber
I have seen many wistful posts from these parts about Baud’s disappearance during the last several days. Many reasons for his flight have been advanced, but isn’t it obvious he is a paid troll?
Think of all those years he helped keep commenters on this site from achieving incandescent levels of flame warfare by reductio ad absurdum. If not for jesters like him, we would surely have reached leftist perfection by now–at least for the two or three people left standing or caring. Clearly hostile actors wanted us not to take our glorious revolution seriously ALL THE TIME. and he played along.
NOW his paymasters want internecine bloodshed to abound on near top-10,000 blogs such as this one. They want to distract from the gathering shitstorm orchestrated by our so-called common foes. Go ahead and check. I guarantee he is not on any blogs of similar stature anywhere else. Think that’s a coincidence?
No more Baud? I for one say good riddance. A droll troll he be, but a troll nonetheless.
Is it not bad enough that the Russians want to ratf-ck our elections. But Baud 2020 too! The horror!
Elizabelle
@topclimber: That’s funny. Baud will applaud it.
Ksmiami
@Jeffro: fox must be destroyed
?BillinGlendaleCA
@The Moar You Know:
Hmmm, just drove by the local Spectrum office here, now I’m confused what all those satellite dishes are for.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: I haven’t seen that nym before. How do we know it’s not a Baud sockpuppet?
SWMBO
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Barron is good with the cyber. Maybe dad stiffed him on his allowance. Didn’t Tiffany release some of his state taxes once?
Mnemosyne
@topclimber:
I suspect sockpuppetry in the grand American tradition of Alexander Hamilton writing under different names to agree with himself. ??
(Skeptics can look it up. Hamilton really did that.)
Elizabelle
@Gin & Tonic: We do not know that. And we can sure suspect.
Kidding aside, baud did perform a really important function here.
frosty
@Gin & Tonic: Sockpuppet. Forgot the ! in Baud2020!
Hob
@cain: How come I still don’t see any Democratic full court press? Where is the DNC?
This is a pet peeve that isn’t totally relevant to your main point, but: the DNC has nothing to do with this. It’s an organization with a very limited role, mostly related to managing the primaries and the convention, and fundraising. It’s not the Justice League’s satellite headquarters or something. The overall strategy of Democrats in the federal government, in terms of legislative activity and also public messaging, is determined by their Congressional leadership— and by the President when we have one. The overall strategy of Democrats anywhere else is up to all of the million other groups that they might be in.
Mohagan
@Gin & Tonic: I’m familiar with a quote from Benjamin Franklin (maybe from Poor Richard’s Almanac) that goes “Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead”. True that.
Mohagan
@Jeffro: That’s a quote from Auric Goldfinger! (I wisely spent my youth reading James Bond and Travis McGee novels :-) )