Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s finish the job.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

This blog will pay for itself.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

The willow is too close to the house.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

After roe, women are no longer free.

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

No one could have predicted…

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Oh Christ Another Debate Why is Tulsi still on the Stage Open Thread

Reader Interactions

294Comments

  1. 1.

    Betty Cracker

    At least Williamson isn’t there. (Though she may manifest in a radiant ball of light at any moment!)

  3. 3.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    I’m not bothering with it. These “debates” are useless. I don’t know why we go through with them every four years. The only thing any of the candidates ever really can do that changes things is to get off a zinger that shoots them up in the polls or makes some dumb, meaningless, picky little misstep that torpedoes their ass. Why anybody takes these seriously is beyond me.

  4. 4.

    Mary G

    My feed keeps failing so I am only sporadically listening, although it came back and Biden has a strong answer on raising the capital income tax to 39.5%.

  5. 5.

    Cacti

    Haven’t been able to watch, so, question for those who have:

    Has everybody been taking it easy on Bernie, out of fear that if he gets too wound up, he might actually die onstage?

  6. 6.

    piratedan

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): of the same mind, seems like they’re tailor-made for them to have GOP framing points as question references and then used by the candidates and the media and the after-party punditry to pick apart to indicate where in the horse race certain candidates failed more or less than others…. meanwhile, there’s a guy in the oval office committing crimes as fast as he possibly can to further feather his nest, at the behest of our tax dollars, governmental norms and allies…

  9. 9.

    jl

    Interesting that Steyer backed up Sanders on wealth tax, and put him at least as far left was Warren.
    But the next question from the moderator ignores the billionaire Steyer, wants Biden to fight Sanders and Warren.

    So, that moderator is either inattentive and lazy, or corrupt. Whatever, the question was ‘let’s you and them fight’, but one that reinforced lazy and misleading stereotype.

    Now Buttigieg jumps in and accuses others of not saying anything and then doesn’t say anything. Klobuchar does almost the same thing, but doesn’t say absolutely nothing, just comes very close. This cycle’s O’Malley stand-ins.

    Edit: will say that most of them are refraining from taking cheap shots at each other. But some are sorely tempted, and come close.

    Edit2: Beto tries to match Buttigieg and Klobuchar

  11. 11.

    WaterGirl

    @Betty Cracker: I thought she had decided to attend after all. I wonder what happened. If I were actually paying attention to her, she would make my head swivel.

  12. 12.

    Cacti

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Well, when you become a front runner, you get a target on your back.

    I did notice of late that Skippy the mayor of Bugtumble has decided to position himself as a moderate.

  14. 14.

    dmsilev

    @Betty Cracker: Some campaign or another sold my donor info to her. If I ever figure out who did that, I will swear a blood oath against them. So many emails.

  15. 15.

    WaterGirl

    @dmsilev:

    Some campaign or another sold my donor info to her.

    First thought: wow, that is unforgivable. Second thought: why the hell would any democrat do that?

  17. 17.

    zhena gogolia

    @dmsilev:

    I find it interesting who I get e-mails from. I get them from Harris and Buttigieg and Castro, whom I donated to, so no surprise. But I also get lots of Biden. No Warren at all.

  21. 21.

    Spanky

    OT: WapO has this headline that made me smile:

    Third time was not the charm: Rudy Giuliani’s latest divorce is bitter, expensive and very public

    Not gonna read it. Don’t need to to get the gist.

    Drink!

  24. 24.

    Betty Cracker

    @WaterGirl: You’re thinking of Gabbard, who fake-flirted with a boycott but is there. Williamson the unicorn lady didn’t qualify. (Still waiting for someone to ask Gabbard about Syria.)

  25. 25.

    NotMax

    Cannot help but wonder if Yang has ever heard about Eleanor Roosevelt’s generally conceded to have been a failure Arthurdale plan. Judging by what comes from his mouth, I sincerely doubt he has.

  26. 26.

    guachi

    @Cheryl Rofer: Booker’s the kind of candidate that seems to impress people but not enough for people to vote for him.

    Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

  28. 28.

    hueyplong

    I impulse-donated to Heitkamp from a link on this nearly top 10k site during the Kavanaugh process, and subsequently got spammed for months by Williamson as a result.

    There were no other variables during the time frame in question.

  29. 29.

    Marcopolo

    @Cheryl Rofer: Warren is taking shots cause she’s the perceived front runner. Which, you know, is the way these things play out. I’m in her camp but I’m also curious to see how well she deals with the attacks.

    The thing I’m most happy about is there’s something else to watch than the National League playooffs :). As a St Loiusan I’m glad I don’t base my happiness level on how well the hometown teams do.

    Also, too many folks on the stage—not enough time to answr questions.

  32. 32.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    @Spanky: Oh, it was great. They made sure to mention his bout with impotence. And this was choice:

    “What happened in the marriage? And when did it happen?

    It was an ongoing process that began when he lost the presidential campaign,” Judith Giuliani told New York magazine last year. And then the coup de grace: “For a variety of reasons that I know as a spouse and a nurse he has become a different man.”

  35. 35.

    Spanky

    Also in the WaPo:

    For well over a year, two mysteries consumed a peaceful New Jersey community. There were the strange letters that showed up in the mailboxes of local barns, asking about the possibility of forming a “sexual relationship” with horses, cows or other large animals. And then, there were the homemade tire-slashing devices that farmers kept finding in their driveways or near the entrances to rural farm roads.

    Now, authorities in Sussex County, N.J., are saying that both were the work of the same man, Richard Decker, who lashed out by harassing people who refused to let him have sex with their farm animals.

    The 31-year-old was arrested Oct. 3, according to the New Jersey Herald. Prosecutors said at a Wednesday detention hearing that since August 2018, he had been sending letters and emails detailing his request to farms, stables and horse-boarding facilities throughout Sussex County, located in the northernmost point of the state. Unsurprisingly, many of the recipients were not thrilled to learn that an adult man was interested in having a sexual relationship with their livestock.

    I dunno. Seems to me to be more of a “Florida Man” sort of thing, but I don’t know much about Jersey.

  36. 36.

    jl

    Asking how you would retrospectively fix a disaster that is irreversible in the shot run, and insist that it has to involve sending in troops is asinine.
    Thanks for idiot question Anderson. But then lobs a softball to Gabbard.

  37. 37.

    HeleninEire

    Oh hey so remember way back when I said I don’t wanna watch the debates but maybe I’ll do so if I get a few drinks in me?

    I got a few drinks in me. Shut the TV off.

  39. 39.

    jl

    @Spanky: It’s like which state wants to win the biggest pumpkin contest. Everyone wants to take down the champion.
    Gotta say, brave and game move by New Jersey.

  41. 41.

    dmsilev

    So far, the responses to Gabbard have been (a) to ignore her (Warren) and (b) call her “dead wrong” (Buttigieg).

  42. 42.

    guachi

    @Betty Cracker: My mom thinks so. And she’s a typical Democratic voter – older (72), white, liberal (but not too liberal), female. And she likes what she sees of Booker.

  45. 45.

    Elizabelle

    @HeleninEire: I kind of got more busy putting my dinner together.

    it’s good to see the candidates and how they speak, but 3 hours? I don’t see flying to ABQ with this crowd.

    PS: that’s fascinating about tax rates in Ireland. And how are your dad and Mary (?) doing?

  47. 47.

    Spanky

    @jl:

    “I know you are trying to sell your mare but the reason I am contacting you today is because I am attracted to equine and wanted to ask … would you please give me the permission to meet and possibly have a sexual relationship with one of your horses?” said one of the messages. “Im sorry if my request appears insulting. I am honestly attracted to horses and Im looking for a longer term relationship with one, but I have no place to home one myself. I am a man in north jersey and I would be very grateful if you would consider me for your horses. Thank you.”

    Your move, Florida.

  48. 48.

    jl

    Gabbard rattles off a list of falsehoods, absurdities, half-truths about Syria. Maybe one or two minor facts to throw us off the track of her being full of shit.

    Anderson: Turkey should still be in NATO?
    Someday a candidate will just tell these miserable moderators to cut the crap.

  49. 49.

    PsiFighter37

    @jl: And yet some corner of the Internet (plus a ton of Russian bots) absolutely love her. Makes no sense.

  55. 55.

    Duane

    Harris had a strong, informed response to Trumpov’s disastrous Syrian policy. Put the blame where it belongs.

  56. 56.

    Mary G

    @jl: She said “end regime change wars” about twenty times in 90 seconds, and no one had the brains to condemn her palling around with Assad.

  60. 60.

    low-tech cyclist

    @hueyplong:

    I impulse-donated to Heitkamp from a link on this nearly top 10k site during the Kavanaugh process, and subsequently got spammed for months by Williamson as a result.

    I have a separate email I use for online purchases, political and charitable contributions, or for anything else where I have to give an email address online as part of something transactional.

    That way all that crud goes into an account that I only look at when I need to, and my friends-and-family email stays mostly clean.

  61. 61.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Klobuchar is right to call out Yang on his false equivalence with Russia.

    That should disqualify him from future debates and the nomination forever.

  63. 63.

    Amir Khalid

    @Spanky:
    I have serious trouble trying to picture the thinking process of a person who writes to farmers asking pemission to have recreational sex with their livestock.

  64. 64.

    PsiFighter37

    @Cheryl Rofer: That’s what happens when you get a stupid rich guy (who isn’t truly a ‘rich guy’ in the full sense of the word) thinking he knows it all.

  66. 66.

    West of the Rockies

    In my perfect scenario, Warren, Harris, Booker, and Biden would be on stage alone. Not a Biden fan, but he is still a force. Everybody else I think is too unseasoned (Pete) or aged (Bernie) or just doesn’t have the horsepower. YMMV.

  67. 67.

    guachi

    I’ve skipped actually listening/watching the debates in real time. My general thought is…

    All these people, even Tulsi, is just so much better than listening to Trump. For most candidates, it’s just a matter of who I like more, not who I hate the least.

    I will say Pete is irritating me, though. And he’s the only candidate I’ve seen live and I really liked him then.

  70. 70.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: At this point if you want to 1) protect the Kurds and 2) retard Turkey’s, Russia’s, Iran’s, and Assad’s ability to reap any benefits from this fiasco, you’ll need boots on the ground. And now it can’t be a dozen or so Operational Detachment Alphas (ODAs). I can do the crisis action plan (CAP) for this Op in about 30 minutes. But basically you put the US led Coalition air up, flying 24/7 sorties and run a continuous combat air patrol CAP, but a different one) over the operating environment. You deny flight to the Turks, the Russians, and the Syrians. If their planes or rotary craft go up over the SDF areas, then we bring them down. If they or any of their proxies move on the ground, we obliterate them. Once the theater is set from the air, then we roll in the armor and pound anything belonging to the Iranians, the Turks, the Russians, the Syrians, and/or their proxies that wasn’t reduced from the air. Once that happens we send the ODAs back in to reembed with the SDF and they are followed by Civil Affairs, specifically Civil Affairs Teams Alpha (CAT-As) to embed and work with the civilian populations; providing Medical and Veterinarian operations and get basic services back up and running. Then we bring in conventional infantry to sweep up everyone left on the battlefield. Once that’s done, the Interagency folks are brought in, with USAID’s Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) folks to take lead on the humanitarian issues dealing with refugees and internally displaced people (IDPs) basically taking over that lane of operations from Civil Affairs once the theater is stable enough for PRM officials to enter it.

    That’s how you would both reverse and resolve this.

  77. 77.

    guachi

    @Adam L Silverman: And you’d spin up all the linguist support at my base, Fort Gordon. We grumble being put on a 24/7 schedule but your US military Arabic linguists think very highly of Kurds and I think you’d get a lot of motivation to protect them.

  78. 78.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Betty Cracker: You don’t get anywhere by bad mouthing a highly decorated war hero, especially if you don’t want to piss him off in the hope that he’ll actually publicly spill what he knows about all the crap that was going on in the administration when he was SecDef. No need to pick a fight when you don’t need to.

  80. 80.

    lamh36

    @Smartypants60
    13s14 seconds ago
    More
    It has always been interesting to me that the most “progressive” candidates start talking like pragmatists when the issue is guns.

  81. 81.

    WaterGirl

    @Betty Cracker: I am running behind on the debate, and i had to wait until Biden came up again. We have lots of white and silver on stage, and you are right, Biden is the only one with the blue tint.

  84. 84.

    Amir Khalid

    It appears that the glorified mobster doing business as the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia was quite recently keen on buying an English football club. Per Sportstalk.com:

    Earlier this year, United were reportedly being eyed up for a possible takeover by Saudi Arabia Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, with a huge £3.8bn bid mooted.

  85. 85.

    lamh36

    @Yamiche
    6s7 seconds ago
    More
    It is very interesting to see Senator Kamala Harris criticize Congress as a member of Congress. She says Congress has failed to come up with gun legislation.

    She adds: If elected, I will take action as president if Congress doesn’t deliver a bill.

  87. 87.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks for your plan. I’m not qualified to judge it, except it seems like a lot to bite off. But if you say that would work, I believe you.

    But the question asked was basically ‘If you do something really stupid with fireworks and blow off your hands, how will you put them back on’.
    For a debate, by far the best answer is ‘I do anything really stupid.’ Anything else is just too long and complicated an answer.

  89. 89.

    lamh36

    @tparti
    One observation from the campaign trail, as Harris talks about gun control: In talking to her supporters in Iowa or those who are considering her, many cite her comments on dealing with gun violence as one of the reasons they are backing her/considering backing

  91. 91.

    Adam L Silverman

    @guachi: Of that I have no doubt. Still available if you want me to do some quarterly training inservice for your unit.

  92. 92.

    Cacti

    The Cardinals have finally decided to show a pulse. Too bad they gave up 3 unearned runs in the first. Otherwise, it might be an interesting game now.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh36: That of course is not what she said. She put the blame right where it belongs – on the GOP leadership who are forcing a cloture vote for everything.

  97. 97.

    lamh36

    Yes…this is why we need diverse candidates on the stage, cause I promise you a stage full of the same white candidates, male or female will not likely have the same perspectives brought up by some of the diverse candidates. No offense, but the debate moderators have been horrible when it comes to asking questions that voters of color also care about and I don’t imagine it would get any better without there being some diversity if the choice of nominees for party.

    @TexasTribune
    [email protected]: “Police violence is also gun violence — and we need to address that.” #DemDebate

  98. 98.

    lamh36

    @CharlesMBlow
    Candidates are asked how they would address the opioid epidemic. Disproportionately affect white people. Fine. But why never a question about how to address the HIV epidemic raging in the south? Disproportionately affecting black people? #DemDebate

  100. 100.

    SRW1

    @Adam L Silverman:

    In the good old days they solved that problem by hauling a bunch of willing women across the country. Title of the documentary eludes me at the moment. What I remember is that a guy named Jim Quackenbush is mentioned quite a few times.

  101. 101.

    Betty Cracker

    @Adam L Silverman: He’s out hawking a book instead of addressing the disgraceful subversion of US foreign policy for the POTUS’s personal gain, so fuck Mattis. That said, I can see why the candidates wouldn’t slam him when someone else brings him up, but I don’t get why they bring him up in reverential tones themselves.

  102. 102.

    Marcopolo

    @BC in Illinois: I started the year by giving to Harris, Warren, Castro, and Buttigieg as they entered the race. I get by far (like far far far) the most spam from Buttigieg. A little from Castro, and really not much at all from Harris or Warren. Oh yeah, I also gave to Inslee but as you can imagine I don’t get anything at all from him :).

    I also get spammed by Beto quite a bit but that is because I gave to his Senate campaign.

  103. 103.

    chris mohr

    @NotMax:

    Cannot help but wonder if Yang has ever heard about Eleanor Roosevelt’s generally conceded to have been a failure Arthurdale plan. Judging by what comes from his mouth, I sincerely doubt he has.

    I sincerely doubt I have ever heard of E. Roosevelt’s Arthurdale plan. I’m not even sure Arthur ever heard of it, or anyone out living in the dale either.

  104. 104.

    lamh36

    @Essence
    [email protected], “During the course of this debate, 8 people will die from gun violence. The leading cause of death of young Black men in America is gun violence…It is time to act.” #DemocraticDebate #DemDebate

  107. 107.

    JAFD

    @NotMax: Willingboro is in suburban Philadelphia (I lived in the next town a while.), about 60 miles from Sussex County

    BTW, you and Uncle Cosmo got ‘Schuylkill’ correct.

  109. 109.

    Southern Goth

    Mayor Pete is from Indiana, a place where being sanctimonious and scolding people is pretty much the state past time.

    Anyone who thinks liberals have won the culture wars should do recon in Indiana. It’s a place pretty well entrenched, with enough gravy and corn to outlast a seven year siege.

    Only four packets of pepper among them, though.

    Goddamn, I hate that fucking state. If I never had to set foot in it again, I would consider myself lucky.

    Bunch of Nazi cornflakes waiting for some milk.

  112. 112.

    Mai naem mobile

    We have too many candidates but ours are still better than the nuts that made up the GOP candidates in ’16 and ’12. Williamson was the only true nutjob. Even Steyer and Yang aren’t cray cray.

  114. 114.

    TS (the original)

    @Betty Cracker: And speaking of people who took directorships for the money provided without the experience in the industry, Mattis still has to explain his role at Theranos.

  115. 115.

    Betty Cracker

    So glad Gabbard’s attempt at question-jacking got squashed by the break. Fuck off, Tulsi!

  116. 116.

    jk

    Biden’s answer about releasing his medical records was incredibly evasive. Given his advanced age, he has no business dicking around. He needs to release those damn records now.

  120. 120.

    Betty Cracker

    Bogus retort by Beto on breaking up big companies. Lazy answer to conflate Trump targeting companies out of personal pique with busting up monopolies.

  122. 122.

    Leto

    @JAFD: I live on the Schuylkill. Didn’t realize it’s importance during the Revolution until I read Chernow’s Hamilton bio.

  125. 125.

    lamh36

    Is it over yet?

    So I was able to catch a bit, and I think that even though kamala had less time than Pete or Beto, she made the most of it. Of all the candidates, Kamala didn’t attack Warren and instead did what she has been doing for awhile… keeping the focus on Chump and the GOP.

    As Al said, no blood was drawn against Liz Warren, but I also hope it does makes the campaign tighten up some things, because if she is the nominee, you can bet, the GOP and Chumps w/their $125 millions war chest won’t be as “easy” at the Dem challengers.

    Biden didn’t have any majorg gaffes, and maybe I missed it, but did they already discuss Hunter? If so…I don’t see where any blood was drawn against Biden. I think the challengers know that attacking Biden over the Hunter BS would be a big mistake.

    I’m glad that Booker and Castro are still in this because without them there would be less of a diverse focus on some of the issues. Kamala can only do som much when the mods barely call upon her in these herd debates.

    I did love the “tag team” of Booker and Harris on women’s reproductive rights. My money says when Cory has to drop out, he def be Team Kamala if Kamala is still in the thick of it.

  126. 126.

    Mike in DC

    Interesting head to head matchup between Harris and Warren. Harris the relentless inquisitor, Warren the skilled deflector. Kind of a mixed bag.

  130. 130.

    Joe Falco

    @Southern Goth: The biggest gun nut I’ve had the misfortune to deal with was from Indiana. A friend of a former friend of mine, he kept guns, a bullet-proof vest among other tactical gear in his car. He eventually got in trouble with the law in New Jersey by going there to confront an ex-girlfriend while having all those guns in his car. Dumbass got himself a prison sentence and his guns taken away.

  136. 136.

    Marcopolo

    @NotMax: Yeah, I’ve go no particular issue w/ Beto but he is having a poor night.

    On the other hand, I am not a big fan of Biden but I think this is the best showing he’s had so far. Less disjointed & searching for words tonight.

    Last but not least, I’m finding the moderator from the NYT annoying as hell & I’m not exactly sure why. Could just be I think candidates should have 2-3 mins to answer questions & he is being especially sharp in trying to shut down candidates going over their limit.

  138. 138.

    dexwood

    @Southern Goth:
    Having only driven through Indiana a few times, I have no idea how accurate you are, but goddamn, you made me laugh. Thanks. Four packets of pepper. Nazi cornflakes. . .

  139. 139.

    lamh36

    @Omnes Omnibus: Speaking on that exchange…

    Even tho say 85% of voters don’t tweet, they know that Chump issues press release via tweets constantly. Folks have been kicked off the twitter for less than what Chump has said and done.

    Besides which, if Chump tweeted less, maybe he’d actually have to have actual briefings instead. The media have not been in enough of an uproar over the absence of briefings from Chump co. Because they all just follow his twitter feed.

    Also too…so how is Harris taking on Chump on twitter that much different than Warren taking on Zuckerberg and FB? Other than Harris, as usual directly taking on Chump and Warren taking on Chump via Zuckerberg/FB?

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh36:

    Also too…so how is Harris taking on Chump on twitter that much different than Warren taking on Zuckerberg and FB? Other than Harris, as usual directly taking on Chump and Warren taking on Chump via Zuckerberg/FB?

    I am not a party to that fight.

  143. 143.

    Betty Cracker

    @Mike in DC: It was a weird exchange. Warren is good about answering the question she wants to answer instead of the actual question, but sometimes it’s clunky. FWIW, I don’t think deplatforming Trump is a hill to die on, so I can understand why Warren dodged it.

  144. 144.

    Marcopolo

    @Betty Cracker: The way I view that interchange is Kamala wanted to score a point (which is fine) by saying Warren can’t be serious about breaking up tech unless she agreed Trump should be kicked off Twitter. I’m guessing Warren’s position is kicking Trump off Twitter is a nothingburger & used her time to shade Harris on taking big checks from CA tech folks.

    All good fun as far as it goes.

  145. 145.

    guachi

    I like Warren, but supporting Medicare for All is like an own-goal. It’s going to be her primary Achilles heal during the election. Every Republican everywhere will attack on it.

  147. 147.

    trollhattan

    Hey Zeus, USMNT just dropped their first match to Canada in more than 30 years. The suck was strong.

  149. 149.

    mad citizen

    @Southern Goth: Damn! Where were you? I’ve spent 59 years in Indiana–Fort Wayne, Greencastle, Bloomington, Indianapolis, Fishers. Carmel and Fishers are regularly in the top 10 of best places in the U.S. to live. Sorry you came across some of the a-hole Hoosiers. I was out in rural western Indiana yesterday (Rockville at the covered bridge festival). Saw a couple old white guys sporting blue Trumpov 2020 hats, and a large Trumpov 2020 flag for sale, but people were/are uniformly nice…

  154. 154.

    mad citizen

    @dexwood: We have costcos and Penzey’s spices and plenty of pepper in central Indiana. I’ll admit in the Hoosier hinterlands, salt rules.

  155. 155.

    guachi

    @trollhattan: Because people like Obamacare and running to make Obamacare better is easily more of a winning strategy than running to replace Obamacare.

  156. 156.

    lamh36

    @lamh36: Kamala has actually asked for twitter to SUSPEND Chump’s account, not BAN, SUSPEND. That is a difference. As someone who had my OG twitter account suspended for “unuusal activity” not the type of language or incitement that Chump has done even BEFORE becoming POTUS…then yeah…Chump twitter account should have already been suspended 9x over. But as I said…since Chump has essentially eliminated the press briefing with seeming acceptance by the WHPC, they can only get to hear what the POTUS actually thins vis twitter. And that is likely the only reason he’s been allowed to keep violating Twitter’s own policy

  157. 157.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: They looked abysmal. Also, the refereeing in that Fiji V Wales match was terrible. I like the Welsh national team, but they were allowed to get away with a ton of stuff while Fiji wasn’t. That and the Scotland V Japan match were the two most enjoyable games I watched in the pool round and I watched all the matches broadcast on NBCSportsHD.

  158. 158.

    JWR

    More, (I can’t edit):

    Biden was bragging about all the votes he wrangled to get the ACA passed, and Warren came back with “I thank Barack Obama..” and a cheer breaks out. (And I say this as a fan of Kamala.) Go EW!

  162. 162.

    Mike in DC

    Feels like Biden came off badly in that exchange with Sanders and Warren, the latter in particular.

  164. 164.

    Betty Cracker

    @Mike in DC: Yep, he walked straight into that one.

    This debate format is awful. Too many people. If they couldn’t keep the no-hopers out, they should have broken it down over two nights.

  166. 166.

    Marcopolo

    Can I just say I am actually glad Sanders is up there? It’s kind of nice to see two candidates pushing the more left/progressive agenda & there have been a couple of times tonight when Sanders & Warren reinforcing/supporting policies they agree on has been a breath of fresh air.

    And to the folks who are so down on promoting Medicare for All: 1) the R’s are going to demonize any D plan on healthcare; and, 2) pushing Medicare for All now is what is going to get us a Medicare buy-in program by 2025. Got to push the Overton window.

  168. 168.

    trollhattan

    @Marcopolo:

    And to the folks who are so down on promoting Medicare for All: 1) the R’s are going to demonize any D plan on healthcare; and, 2) pushing Medicare for All now is what is going to get us a Medicare buy-in program by 2025. Got to push the Overton window.

    Yup.

  170. 170.

    sdhays

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Maybe his heart attack has helped him make peace with the idea that he will not and should not be the nominee and, thus, he’s going to more of the “movement candidate” he seemed to be in 2015 and early 2016 before his rallies started going to his head.

  171. 171.

    Marcopolo

    @Mike in DC: God, that “You did a good job” line was the exact same patronizing tone he used when she was testifying before his committee on bankruptcy legislation & after she had made some very good points in rebuttal to him, Biden said something like, “Yes, yes we all know you’re good at this Professor.”

    But then I guess that is just a less attractive part of him.

  172. 172.

    eric

    @Leto: they are not going to deplatform the President of the United States. Not ever. Not EVER. Plus, it is the singular forum in which he makes the biggest ass of himself to the largest number of people.

  174. 174.

    Leto

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: “I was friends with my grandfather. He hated Nazi’s. I hate Nazi’s. Let remove the Nazi from our White House. Goodnight!” Basically all of tonight’s questions have been bad. Nothing new learned or said.

  178. 178.

    sdhays

    @lamh36: Post-Dump, will Twitter even be relevant? There are other messaging platforms, but only one where the President of the United States produces his daily press-briefing word shit-vomit storm. If he’s in prison or a mental institution, what will Twitter do to drive addiction to the platform?

  179. 179.

    JAFD

    @NotMax: Yes, Willingboro, New Jersey, is what I meant – indeed, only Willingboro I know of. Has nice library, in shopping center, converted from Woolworth’s (?)

    I’m a bit confused what we’re disputing here.

    Anyway, should there ever be a Philadelphia-and-vicinity BJ meetup, I’ll try my darnedest to be there.A

  180. 180.

    jl

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I quit paying attention for a while due to a spate of dumb ass questions. Only half heard this question. This is the touchy-feely ‘would you be friends with GW Bush’ question? OK.

    I didn’t hear a question on climate change, or Citzen’s United money in politics and systemic corruption. Prison reform? Privatization of essential government services?
    Anything?

  182. 182.

    Ohio Mom

    Biden was doing much better than I’d expected, I was getting used to the idea that it’s going to be Biden, then that dig at Warren and I was Ugh, am I going to have to vote for him?

  183. 183.

    Mandalay

    @Marcopolo: Yep. And also the same patronizing tone Biden used at the start of the second debate when he said to Kamala Harris “Go easy on me, kid” .

    WTF with calling Harris a “kid”?

  185. 185.

    Marcopolo

    Booker slays on the last question. I am one of those people who does not understand why Booker hasn’t caught on more. He can certainly be as inspirational as anyone on the stage. Maybe his message has been too broad or unfocused? I dunno, but I’m surprised he’s not doing better.

  188. 188.

    guachi

    I didn’t hear everything every candidate said, but Booker said nothing I disagreed with.

    Booker was, of the people on stage who are actually politicians, the one who easily sounded least like a politician.

  189. 189.

    Immanentize

    OT. The Immp reports the Bon Iver concert was amazing! Proving that other universi exist….

  191. 191.

    Marcopolo

    @jl: Your hearing is fine. Generally speaking, the debate moderators this go around (every debate so far) have run the gamut from mediocre to outright awful with like one or two exceptions.

  192. 192.

    jl

    @Ohio Mom: Biden has done much better than before on but style presentation and substance. Got through to him he has to do some homework?

    But, I honestly don’t think he understands when a complement or observation comes off as genuine or patronizing. It’s just beyond him. I don’t think it makes much difference whether he is talking to a woman, a minority, a youngster, or a white dude. Just we don’t mind it so much with a white dude.

    If he’s the nominee that will come in handy against Trump, since Biden will so wholeheartedly and repeatedly lay on the condescension and patronizing kindly snark, and be so surprised if anyone calls him on it (though only rabid Trumpsters would not love it)

  193. 193.

    Leto

    @Betty Cracker:

    truth — people like their DOCTORS, no one is stanning for fucking insurance companies https://t.co/9e12QRCsTt— shauna (@goldengateblond) October 16, 2019

    every time i hear people like Klobuchar and Buttigieg talk about insurance like we'll all cry about losing it i feel like i'm going crazy. literally nobody likes their insurance company. insurance companies suck and shouldn't exist.— Erin democracy banshee Ryan (@morninggloria) October 16, 2019

  194. 194.

    sdhays

    @Marcopolo: Speaking for myself, the first time I took notice of Booker was in 2012 where he shit on Barack Obama for mildly criticizing Wall St. types … while acting as a surrogate for Obama 2012. It might not be fair, but I have a hard time getting past that first impression. I understand his record on education isn’t great either, although, to be fair, neither was Obama’s, unfortunately.

  195. 195.

    some guy

    In an interview Tuesday, Solomon denied he participated in a disinformation campaign. Giuliani and the Hill had alleged earlier this year that Yovanovitch provided a “do not prosecute list” to Ukrainian officials to protect the Bidens and other allies. But Kent, according to the documents, told his colleagues that the list was phony, pointing to incorrect name spellings that longtime officials like Yovanovitch and himself would never have gotten wrong, he said.

    lol

  196. 196.

    patroclus

    This is actually the first debate I’ve watched. Coming in, I was kind of for Biden, but let’s just say he wasn’t very impressive. Klobuchar won it, in my view. Booker had some good moments too. She’ll get a bounce; maybe him too.

  198. 198.

    Mandalay

    @Marcopolo:

    why Booker hasn’t caught on more

    He certainly does well in all of the debates. Maybe he comes across as being too nice and reasonable (and therefore not tough enough) to be president?

  201. 201.

    jl

    @Leto: I’ve typed on this blog, probably way too many times, that the US health care debate has an absurd obsession with how to finance health care insurance. With well designed health care reform, it just doesn’t make much difference. My problem with the centrists slogan about preserving free choice in health insurance is that unless there is much much stronger market and product regulation to make it stable. Absent that much stronger regulation, talking about free choice is a misleading slogan.

    Right now I support some version of Medicare for All, doesn’t make much difference which, since a weak or strong version of it contains policy tools to solve the big problems needed to fix US health care system. I won’t support the centrist vision of improving PPACA until they produce some real policy proposals.

  203. 203.

    Steeplejack

    All right! The Nats sweep the universally reviled Cardinals. A rare bright spot in this wretched week.

  205. 205.

    Mandalay

    @Betty Cracker: @Betty Cracker:

    Okay, why is he yelling?

    Because he is a mediocre candidate, so his minders have decided that his best path to victory is to constantly talk smack to Trump. Probably not a bad tactic for a man of his limited abilities, but a bit of a worry if he actually becomes president.

  206. 206.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    I think Medicare for All will be a problem for these candidates in the general election, too. My folks had good insurance through work. Since they retired, they have complained about Medicare constantly. They are upset about the restrictions on some medications, etc. Union folks, especially, sometimes have really good healthcare. They will lose benefits/perks with a switch to traditional Medicare. They will be outraged about it. This shouldn’t be minimized.

  209. 209.

    lamh36

    @KamalaHarris
    Trump’s tweets incite violence, threaten witnesses, and obstruct justice. We can’t crack down on Facebook but turn a blind eye to Twitter. Big tech companies must be held accountable for how they allow him to abuse their platforms. #DemDebate

    Where’s the lie?

  211. 211.

    Marcopolo

    @sdhays: So, yeah, my issues with Booker are from what I know about his past positions on topics. But I’m more spitballing on his appeal to folks who are coming at him w/ fresh eyes.

    So, the report now is AOC AND the entire squad will be endorsing Sanders. That’s fine. I’m a Warren person but I’m team broken glass in November 2020. It’s a campaign & there’s a long time to go & lots of stuff is going to happen from now thru next May and it really seems suicidal to be offended at any particular candidate except maybe Gabbard who I just find creepy.

  212. 212.

    Matt McIrvin

    Kamala Harris did great, Cory Booker did great… Bernie Sanders did great! An unusually good performance for him.

    Warren was taking all the aggro, probably because she’s been rising in the polls; she stood up generally OK but didn’t always respond perfectly (in some cases, the questions were automatic gotchas where any possible response opened a different line of attack). But nobody else was under the level of pressure she was; in particular nobody was really going hard on Biden.

    Biden: impressively knowledgeable about foreign policy, still can’t put a sentence together without tripping over himself.

    Steyer, Yang and Gabbard need to go away. Probably some of the others too.

  213. 213.

    Another Scott

    @jl: Uncle Joe seemed have not done a 12 pack of Red Bull before this debate the way he did before the last one, so he was better. But he still did things like talk about ISIS coming HERE if Assad and Putin take over Afghanistan, or something. And mixing up Iraq and Syria. And Assad and Erdogan. (sigh) I didn’t like his screaming at us to GET UP!! at the end, either. I remember that was recycled from his announcement speech (or around then).

    I think Warren did very well. Pete continues to rub me the wrong way (he talks a lot but doesn’t really say anything concrete about what he’s going to do), and he was rather combative with several others. Harris did OK, but I thought she’s done better at other times. She does seem somehow more “genuine” than many of the others, but “if you can fake sincerity you’ve got it made…”. Amy continues to annoy me. Yang is a crank. Tulsi is a troll. Beto was OK, Castro was good. Bernie was Bernie. Tom should stay home and play with his money. Booker was OK, but needs to have more than a few inspiring anecdotes.

    The moderators were horrible – Cooper acted like he had a plane to catch or something. The NYTimes guy pushed the requisite “but what about the TAXES, hmmm???” line. Erin’s eyelashes were distracting. The last question was stupid. The constant talking over the candidates when they were trying to make a point was annoying.

    All in all, about what I expected.

    YMMV.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  214. 214.

    jk

    @Ohio Mom: @jl:

    As someone who’s not very nimble or quick on his feet, Biden benefited greatly by so many candidates on the stage. When the field narrows, I expect a much weaker debate performance from him.

    I found Amy Klobuchar extremely obnoxious and repulsive and look forward to her dropping out of the race.

  221. 221.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Marcopolo:

    So, the report now is AOC AND the entire squad will be endorsing Sanders. That’s fine.

    A 2020 election where I get to choose between two Russian assets will be the first Presidential election where I leave the ballot blank.

  222. 222.

    Mandalay

    @jk:

    I found Amy Klobuchar extremely obnoxious and repulsive and look forward to her dropping out of the race.

    Her voice quivering with emotion when she spoke reverentially about John McCain is just not appropriate at a Democratic debate, however sincere she may have been. And it’s really not a good idea to sound like you are about to cry either.

  224. 224.

    guachi

    The question was “unusual friendship”. It was part of the question. And Klobuchar’s anecdote about McCain where she choked up was about when he was close to death and couldn’t speak.

    If you have a problem with that I think that’s more you than Klobuchar.

  225. 225.

    JAFD

    @sdhays: As a Minion Of The Newark Democratic Machine, I would like to mention that the Newark school district had been run by the state for ten years before Mr Booker became mayor (and only returned to local control last year) (I may have the dates a bit off – am ready to call it a night).

    There wasn’t much he could do to affect the school system, and the least that can be said about his program is “it seemed like a good idea at the time’

    For another view, check out jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com

  226. 226.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @sdhays: Speaking for myself, the first time I took notice of Booker was in 2012 where he shit on Barack Obama for mildly criticizing Wall St. types … while acting as a surrogate for Obama 2012. It might not be fair, but I have a hard time getting past that first impression.

    Booker has had some good moments since then, but nothing that can really overcome the distaste I felt for that moment. Not that it’s a deal-breaker in itself, I just don’t see anything consistently impressive or remarkable about him that makes me overlook that moment, or what I see as his camera-hunting stunts as mayor, or cozying up to villain du jour Zuckerberg (whom I distrusted before it became apparent just how much he was willing to suck up to the GOP), to say nothing of his recent weaselliness on Iran and his history of being in line with his senior senator, the neocon Menendez on foreign policy issues.

  228. 228.

    guachi

    Speaking of AOC endorsing Sanders. Do you know which candidate has more endorsements from DNC members than any other candidate? Sanders!

  229. 229.

    TS (the original)

    @WaterGirl: Agreed. She will lose some of her support by endorsing an old sick white guy who is not a democrat. However, given she has already been a big support of his, it is not surprising

  233. 233.

    Immanentize

    Biden — better but became old man shouting at clouds.
    Warren — took some licks but kept on ticking
    Sanders — Rage rage against the dying of the light
    Buttigieg — talking a lot but you’re not saying anything
    Harris — is so good and true but like a half beat off
    Booker — love his stories but still seems to me like a phony baloney sammich with extra Karo
    O’Rourke — where did he go? The gun thing was not enough
    Klobuchar — Coulda been the Biden back up but she just can’t handle that Lane for some reason
    Steyer — started clear but I don’t think anyone knows why he wants to be President
    Yang — fumble! But the Immp likes him so further affiant sayeth not
    Castro — Cannot get a break, left out of every major discussion SAD!
    Gabbard — At least less shiny than last debate.

  234. 234.

    Matt McIrvin

    @James E Powell: I think it could do a lot to stop the bleeding of support from Sanders to Warren, which ultimately benefits Biden by splitting the non-Biden vote. Looking forward to Berniebros getting back to insisting that Warren’s done now so her supporters need to switch to Bernie.

  236. 236.

    jl

    @Another Scott: I think Biden did better enough to stay near the top. Sanders was sharp enough and looked in good enough shape, and got enough time to make his standard points, to stay about where he is. Warren, being the new perceived front runner, took a lot of attacks, and I think did very well in responding, despite a couple of big whiffs. I think the debate will solidify them as the top three, with Biden and Warren about tied.

    I thought Harris and Booker did good jobs and deserve a substantial boost, but I’ve thought that before.

    As for the rest, time to start winnowing them out. Didn’t really have anything to add. Maybe Buttigieg, marginally OK to stay.

  238. 238.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @TS (the original): She will lose some of her support by endorsing an old sick white guy who is not a democrat.

    You think? I’d think that, in the twitteverse if not in the actual electorate of her district, not endorsing Bernie would get her flamed. In her actual district, I’d guess the effect is “meh”

    I stopped in a bar to watch the last couple innings of the Nats-Cardinals game, and there was a small debate watching party in the corner, and I heard the odious Gabbard cite Trey Bengowzdi as a good bipartisan friend. I guess it would be a bit inside baseball to go after her for this, but this is a man who used dead service members as political props to attack a Democrat for being a Democrat

  240. 240.

    patroclus

    By far, Klobuchar’s best line was asking why Warren doesn’t “have a plan” for paying for her health care proposal. Warren avoided the direct question again and again and again and again and again. For someone who brags incessantly about “having a plan” for everything, it’s sort of an obvious question that she should answer.

  243. 243.

    jl

    @Immanentize: I forgot to say I do like Castro, when he can get some speaking time and has something to say. But the intersection doesn’t happen often enough. I think he got hurt when he was perceived as mean to kindly Uncle Joe in earlier debate, but I didn’t think so at all. Castro caught Biden confused or BSing, and fine to call him out.

  244. 244.

    Matt McIrvin

    @patroclus: The obvious and correct answer is that she’d raise taxes, but overall costs would be lower because you wouldn’t be paying private premiums. But you know and I know that the only bit that would get quoted is WARREN SAYS SHE’LL RAISE YOUR TAXES, check and mate just like Walter Mondale, run the clip with just that part of the sentence in 10,000 attack ads. The question is a trap with no correct answer in a soundbite world.

  245. 245.

    Mary G

    Bernie Bros. out en masse on Twitter to say he won the debate and got the Squad’s endorsement, didn’t fall over dead so perfectly healthy and INVINCIBLE.

  246. 246.

    Immanentize

    @jl: I think he is a really good candidate and we are lucky to have so many really good peeps to chose from. But I wish he and Kamala could get more traction.

  247. 247.

    jl

    @patroclus: I think the obsession with details and mechanics of how to pay for health insurance is misplaced. As I noted above, in a good comprehensive health care reform you can have private health insurance or not, you can have public option or not, you can 200 proof Berneicare or not.

    No reason to answer questions that are not all that important. Warren said she would be a veto point for anything that increased the bottom line health care costs for middle class, and that is a good enough answer. I think public will accept it, though that is just my guess.

  248. 248.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @jl: I think he got hurt when he was perceived as mean to kindly Uncle Joe in earlier debate, but I didn’t think so at all. Castro caught Biden confused or BSing, and fine to call him out.

    I watched that moment and thought, we’ve heard for years that this guy and/or his brother are the future the TX Democratic party, but neither one ever wanted to get into the ring with Cruz, Abbot or Cornyn. But somehow he can throw a punch, and a cheap and nasty one, at another Democrat.

  249. 249.

    Marcopolo

    @James E Powell: Your guess is as good as mine. Only thing I can say for sure is it will take pressure off of AOC. I am sure the Bernie folks have been making her life a little bit of hell.

    So last post of the night, and I did swear off predictions after Nov ‘16 but after tonight I would not be terribly surprised if no one had a majority of the candidates heading into the convention—barring a medical event or something really unusual shaking things up.

  250. 250.

    frosty

    @Leto: Congrats in being in the non-tucky part of Pennsyltucky. If we ever do a Philly meetup I might drive out of Real America to join everyone.

  251. 251.

    Another Scott

    @jk: Jim Lehrer was OK at times. The League of Women Voters did a good job, back in the olden days before the parties decided the questions were too uncomfortable or something.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  253. 253.

    TS (the original)

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist

    : if not in the actual electorate of her district, not endorsing Bernie would get her flamed.

    I really wasn’t thinking about her district – more about the overall support from democrats in response to trump’s continuing attacks.

  254. 254.

    TS (the original)

    @jk: I didn’t see a need for her to endorse anyone – but perhaps she thinks she owes Bernie??

  255. 255.

    jl

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: ” But somehow he can throw a punch, and a cheap and nasty one, at another ”

    I think Biden stated his position so poorly and was so confused, it was OK to go after him hard on that. I can see people upset that the way Castro phrased it could be seen as a sneak attack on Biden’s age. Opinions clearly differ. Most didn’t like it.

  256. 256.

    frosty

    @Marcopolo: Just FYI to everyone: I’m dropping employer insurance this year and going to Medicare. Trying to figure out what to do is a fecking nightmare! I don’t have it and already I hate it.For me, M4A is a loser, call it universal health care or anything else!!

  258. 258.

    jk

    @Another Scott:

    Yeah, I miss the League of Women Voters as well. Instead of tv news stars, I’d prefer to see beat reporters who cover the environment, national security, etc as the questioners but as long as the broadcast networks call the shots they’ll continue ramming these vacuous, vapid tv anchors down our throats.

  260. 260.

    patroclus

    @Matt McIrvin: Is it equally obvious by how much she’d raise my taxes? I don’t pay private premiums now because I – like 80 million others – don’t have health insurance. So, right now, it sounds like a huge tax increase for something I pay nothing for currently. And does she really think supplementary private coverage will just go away? It hasn’t in the U.K. or Canada (or other countries with national health systems). Why can’t we transition to a national system with a public option competing with private plans and customers choosing which works for them best? Why doesn’t she have a plan for this? Or rather, why can’t she be honest about the implications of her plan? Is she just going to avoid the question forever?

  262. 262.

    Ivan X

    @hilts: No. You are wrong. I hate the Astros, and Houston in general.. Despite having a tremendous respect for their having built a championship caliber ballclub from nothing in a few years. Also, I live in New York. Go Yankees, in this case.

  263. 263.

    lamh36

    Last post…watch the clip. You can see his neck snap back at “Does it Matter”

    Chris Hayes absolutely went home and cried after this moment with @KamalaHarris.

    I will put my life on that.
    https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1184317624265646080?s=21

    She about snatched his wig and all he could do was throw it back to the studio. And even then he got no backup from some on the panel..

    [email protected]: “I love love love that she refuses to lower the bar for Donald Trump…I think all those points right there are spot on.”

    @K_JeanPierre: “She had a very strong night…What we saw from her what we saw in the judiciary hearings. We saw that person.”
    https://twitter.com/ammarmufasa/status/1184318766986993665?s=21

  264. 264.

    jk

    @TS (the original):

    I’m beyond fed up with Sanders and Biden who, in my view, are way too old for the most demanding job in the world. The notion of any person over 75 years old starting their first term in office as President is fucking insane. And fuck Biden for his obnoxious remark that he’ll release his medical records sometime before the iowa Caucauses.

  266. 266.

    hilts

    @Ivan X:

    Given the vast disparity that exists between the NY Yankees and all other MLB teams when it comes to World Series titles, I find rooting for them akin to rooting for the Borg on Star Trek.

  267. 267.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Good on AOC endorsing Bernie.

    He can’t win. And if she had endorsed Warren, the corporate media would have started calling Warren a Socialist.

    Warren dodged a bullet.

    Obama Allah favors the compassionate.

  269. 269.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @lamh36: Chris Hayes absolutely went home and cried after this moment with @KamalaHarris.

    I will put my life on that.

    “Does it matter was a great moment, but I wouldn’t necessarily say this was a bad moment for Hayes. He asked questions, she knocked them, IMHO, out of the park. “Does it matter?” was a brilliant moment.

  270. 270.

    WaterGirl

    The debates overall have been terrible, but I guess maybe the one before this was the least bad.

    The one redeeming thing, I think, is that they provide the occasional glimpse of the true character of the candidates.

    I agreed with the content of Castro’s criticism of Biden last time around, but it was done in a way that I thought was ugly, and disappointing.

    I have always liked Joe Biden, in spite of his flaws, but his “ownership” of Barack Obama and his accomplishments turns me off, as does his schmoozy attitude.

    Tonight I was struck by the ugliness of Pete Buttigieg’s attitude/treatment of Beto. I don’t know what’s going on between them, but I was singularly unimpressed by Buttigieg’s treatment of Beto and some of the other candidates. Ugly in style, and some in content. Apparently his “we shouldn’t be attacking other democrats” from the other debates has gone out the window as he believes he may have a real shot at this. I am about to take my name off of his mailing list and I will not give him another dime.

    I felt that Warren was evasive on some things tonight and I don’t care for that, so she went down in my estimation. It’s always interesting to see how power and ambition can seem to change, or at least show, a different character. Talking about Warren here and Buttigieg.

    I don’t think Beto had a great debate, but at least I didn’t come away thinking less of him.

    Kamala grated on me at the previous debate, but I didn’t have that same reaction this time.

    The only candidate that I like better after all these debates is Booker, who I did not care for at all coming into this. I felt he was a phony, but now he strikes me as one of the only candidates who is holding on to the big picture and gets that the ugliness displayed on the stage is hurting our chances.

  271. 271.

    Cacti

    @John Revolta:

    Isn’t Warren’s plan to raise taxes on rich fucks ? Two percent over 50 million? I thought that was for the healthcare proposal.

    No, that was for other plans. It wouldn’t generate nearly enough revenue to cover universal healthcare.

  272. 272.

    Stephen Crickmore

    The debates suit Kamala Harris’s background as a prosecutor. She seems to know her bri, is succinct and varies her pitch and material. She looks quite fresh. Warren Is knowledgeable but is starting to wear thin. She make the same points repeatably even during the same debate but with less conviction. Sanders seems to have made a remarkably good recovery from his heart attack and Biden looks like he could have one soon, and sees every issue from the history of his past policy federal positions , from which there appears to have been many.

  273. 273.

    TS (the original)

    @jk: no argument from me. I’m not yet 75 but I’m close, I love retirement, I’ve never been busier and I have time for looking after self and family – spoiling grandchild (only have one) & loving it. In between times I have way too many trips to doctors – no matter how well you have treated your body, age brings health issues.

  274. 274.

    david

    Just wake me up in November 2020. That’s all that matters. Any “D” over any “R”.

    Until then, this is all kabuki for the benefit of cable networks, pundits, and influencers.

  275. 275.

    Aleta

    TBogg @tbogg

    In more important news, Ripley is going to “sex camp” tomorrow morning for making puppies purposes.

    Not going to tell him. I’ll surprise him like that time I drove my daughter past her school and to Disneyland instead.

    photo of Ripley

  277. 277.

    Brachiator

    I missed the debate due to work and commuting. From a scan of the posts here, I don’t think I missed too much.

    Did they at least nail Trump on Syria and the Kurds?

    The economy, on the surface, appears to be doing well. Were any useful questions asked about the economy or Trump’s phony trade war? Did any candidate expand on any question and say anything about how they would have a more realistic/substantive economic policy to fix Trump’s carnival act?

  278. 278.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mary G: he is now UNSTOPPABLE

    ain’t nothing gonna get between Bernie and Third Place, and he’ll burn thirty million dollars of Dem donors money to do it!

  279. 279.

    TS (the original)

    @patroclus: So many people don’t have health insurance – and then they need it. People need saving from themselves. When you are proud of not having health care it seems that you deserve to be hit with a million dollar bill when a serious health issue arises. The people I feel for most are all the young southern women who seem to give birth with zero ante natal care & the GOP insists on making sure those that would help them are no longer able to do so. Any form of universal health care should allow such care for all pregnant women.

  280. 280.

    Brachiator

    @jk:

    Yeah, I miss the League of Women Voters as well. Instead of tv news stars, I’d prefer to see beat reporters who cover the environment, national security, etc as the questioners but as long as the broadcast networks call the shots they’ll continue ramming these vacuous, vapid tv anchors down our throats.

    The political parties, not the broadcast networks, got rid of the League of Women Voters.

    After a 16 year period in which there were no public presidential debates, the League of Women Voters Education Fund (LWVEF) sponsored three presidential debates in 1976. These debates between Jimmy Carter (D), former governor of Georgia and Gerald Ford (R), President of the United States, were the first to be held since 1960. In 1976 the League also sponsored one vice presidential debate between Senator Walter Mondale (D-MN) and Senator Bob Dole (R-KS).

    The League continued to sponsor the presidential and vice presidential debates every four years through the 1984 elections. Following that election cycle, the Democratic and Republican national parties came together in a decision to move sponsorship of the debates under the purview of the parties.

    Between 1985 and 1987 the League challenged this move and sparked widespread public debate on the matter. The LWVEF argued that a change in sponsorship that put control of the debate format in the hands of the two dominant parties would deprive voters of one of the only chances they have to see the candidates outside of their controlled campaign environment.

    In 1987 the parties announced the creation of the Commission on Presidential Debates. The Commission chose LWVEF to sponsor the last presidential debate of 1988, but placed so many rules and restrictions on the possible format of the debate that the LWVEF was finally unable to agree to participate. In a press release at the time, Nancy Neuman, then LWVUS President, stated that the League had “no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public.”

    The nonprofit Commission on Presidential Debates sponsored all the presidential debates since 1988 (1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008 and 2012).

  281. 281.

    Ivan X

    @hilts: I mean, sure, I get that. If I didn’t live here and my dad wasn’t a Yankees fan I’d find them odious too. But they’ve certainly had a hell of a year given their many, many injuries. Plus, I hate Houston. It’s my least favorite major American city.

  282. 282.

    Mandalay

    @patroclus:

    Why doesn’t she have a plan for this? Or rather, why can’t she be honest about the implications of her plan? Is she just going to avoid the question forever?

    Oh FFS. Warren wasn’t avoiding the question; she answered it, but (correctly) refused to play along with the phony framing of the question:

    Moderators asked Warren whether she would raise taxes to pay for Medicare for All and her other plans, “yes or no.”

    A perfectly reasonable question, right? Well no, it isn’t. It’s a dirtbag question because the devil is in the details for Warren’s approach. She has a wealth tax plan that would increase taxes on those with assets of over $50 million. She also intends to raise taxes for lower incomes which would be more than offset by not having medical expenses once Medicare for All is implemented:

    Warren instead made points that she regularly makes on this question: her contention that total costs under the plan will go down for middle-class Americans, while the wealthy would foot a large portion of the bill.

    “Cost will go up for the wealthy, they will go up for big corporations, and for middle-class families, they will go down,” she said. “I will not sign a bill into law that does not lower costs for middle-class families.”

    The underlying argument Warren is making is that while voters might pay higher taxes under Medicare for All, that would be more than outweighed by the elimination of health care costs like premiums or copays. She very pointedly did not say that taxes would go up — a soundbite that could be easily weaponized.

    Given that you apparently missed that during the debate, do you now understand why Warren wouldn’t play along with the “gotcha” approach of the questioners? If it is misleading to give a “yes” or “no” answer to a complex scenario, then refuse to play their game. Warren was having none of their bullshit, and good for her.

    And as a related matter, fuck Buttigieg for his cheap shot on Warren when he knows better: “Well, we heard it tonight, a yes or no question that didn’t get a yes or no answer“. There’s so much valid criticism that can be thrown at all of the candidates, so I find it disappointing to see him stopping so low with that nonsense.

  284. 284.

    patroclus

    @TS (the original): Your desire that I get a tremendously costly disease doesn’t strike me as particularly compassionate. I’m not “proud” of not having insurance – I don’t have it because my employers don’t provide it and it’s too costly; just like 80+ million others. Do you similarly hope for them to get sick and die because they can’t pay for their health care? That doesn’t strike me as particularly good government. Is this Warren’s plan too? I doubt it – she just isn’t very specific with her financing non-plans for expanding Medicare. You, on the other hand, sound like a Republican – wanting people to get sick, get bankrupted and die. Is this your usual method of discussing things?

  285. 285.

    patroclus

    @Mandalay: I watched the whole debate and saw Warren avoid the question again and again and again. I then watched her on CNN being interviewed for 10 minutes or so and she avoided the question again and again again. Asking about the financing for her proposals is not a “gotcha” question – as others have noted, she has answered the obvious financing question regarding her other proposals. Just not here. And her evasive response – that she won’t raise costs on middle class families – is just not true. There are 80+ million of us without insurance now and any tax increase at all will raise our costs. We deserve a real answer; not obfuscation.

  286. 286.

    JWR

    @Brachiator:

    The political parties, not the broadcast networks, got rid of the League of Women Voters.

    Thank you so much for mentioning this. I remember when that debate was going on, and was very unhappy with the outcome.

  287. 287.

    Mandalay

    @patroclus:

    she avoided the question again and again

    FFS, what is wrong with you? I quoted what she said. If you choose to not like her answer so be it, but stop lying that she didn’t answer the question.

  288. 288.

    jk

    @Brachiator:

    The political parties, not the broadcast networks, got rid of the League of Women Voters.

    Yes, I realize that. I didn’t mean to conflate those things with each other. What I should have written was that I wish tv network executives could put the public interest ahead of the egos of their on-air talent. We’d all be better served by having beat reporters who are subject specialists on an issue posing these questions to the candidates instead of overpaid entertainers who impersonate journalists.

  290. 290.

    Sab

    @lamh36: Thank youfor that. I had been worrying about pronouncing it to rhyme with Pamela. That seemed wrong. S Cat had to correct my spelling of her name about 6 months ago.

  292. 292.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    @Mandalay: why do any taxes have to go up on the working classes and the working poor?

    The correct answer is: “the economy has been rigged for decades with the rich sucking the wealth and gains of the economy. Therefore the taxes will have to come from them.”

  293. 293.

    Ramalama

    @mad citizen: I drive to Chicago to visit family the long way which means going through Indiana…from Montreal to Toronto, sarnia, Michigan… Anyway the bloody smug bullshit road signs as you leave IN for IL i wave my middle fingers every time. Fuck indiana. Midwesterners are polite maybe to your face but so what when your guns and policies are giving other people and places a rough time. Chicagos gun violence? I’m gonna point my upraised index to Indiana.

  294. 294.

    jonas

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I agree. M4A doesn’t poll well compared to enhancing the AHA and/or a public option. Seniors are scared that M4A will further limit what coverage/accessibility they have and people with good private insurance — and they are out there — are the ones who will scream the loudest about losing it.

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