Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

The revolution will be supervised.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Why did Dr. Oz lose? well, according to the exit polls, it’s because Fetterman won.

Second rate reporter says what?

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

I was promised a recession.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

No one could have predicted…

Accountability, motherfuckers.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Agonize - Organize / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: New Story (Old Narrative)

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: New Story (Old Narrative)

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Meanwhile, across the aisle: ‘… Because our lips get tired!’


SRSLY:

Reader Interactions

218Comments

  1. 1.

    Betty Cracker

    Good to know Pelosi and Schiff are prepping for “GOP stunts” because Trump’s toadies in Congress have nothing else. I expect we’ll witness many exhibitions of stupidity and hypocrisy that will make the dumb and pointless SCIF pizza sit-in look like a dignified civil disobedience action in comparison.

  2. 2.

    Debbie(Aussie)

    What on earth do the words spoken by Mr McCarthy mean?
    This timeline is seriously fucked. I really don’t want to be here. Stop the world I want to get off.?

  5. 5.

    OzarkHillbilly

    “Most social change starts with a story.”—@BarackObama on how tapping into a story can be the most powerful way to change the world.

    I don’t know about changing the world but here’s a nice story to maybe change a morning frown into a smile:

    Phillip Youmans, age 19, sits in a chic downtown Manhattan restaurant drinking coffee. As recently as a year ago, when he was just another NYU undergrad, he might very well have walked by and gotten a glimpse of a tableau like this from the outside-in. That sort of thing has been happening a lot lately – finding himself on the other side of a scene he’s witnessed over and over again.

    Youmans has come directly from the airport, having just returned from the New Orleans film festival, where his debut feature Burning Cane landed a plum showing at the Orpheum Theater. The Crescent City native has a specific memory to go with this one: “I remember going to see A Ciambra, Jonas Carpignano’s movie about the Romani people in Italy, at the Orpheum a couple years ago. I never imagined I’d play there one day. I couldn’t have.”

    Life has gotten very surreal very quickly for Youmans, who went from another teenager with big dreams to a bona fide artist, becoming the first black director to win the best US narrative feature award at the Tribeca film festival before nabbing a distribution deal from Ava DuVernay’s company. His story, that of a resourceful and determined kid going full DIY to accomplish something plenty of adults spend their entire lives trying to complete, has an instant boy-wonder hook. But beyond all the precocity, beyond his narrative, beyond the satisfying uncanniness of getting VIP treatment at places he once paid to enter, there’s a movie. And it’s a shockingly good one.

  7. 7.

    Patricia Kayden

    Democrats need to nail Republicans to the wall for their cultish Trump support. It’s anti-American and unpatriotic. It’s clear that Trump has committed several impeachable offenses and it’s a sign of discipline that House Democrats are only going after him for the Ukraine call.

  8. 8.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Rachel Maddow MSNBC
    ‏Verified account @maddow

    Hello Missouri.

    Turns out your state health director has been personally tracking the menstrual periods of Missouri women, on a spreadsheet.
    This is how your state govt is “regulating” the last abortion provider in MO — while trying to shut it down.

  10. 10.

    Anne Laurie

    @Patricia Kayden:

    It’s clear that Trump has committed several impeachable offenses and it’s a sign of discipline that House Democrats are only going after him for the Ukraine call.

    It’s pretty clear that Trump’s strategy, such as it is, will be to throw as much chaff as he & his supporters can produce, in an attempt to distract when they can no longer deny. And far too many members of the Media Village Idiots Very Serious Pundits Brigade will do their best to help him, by insisting today’s ‘shiny’ object (verbal coprolite) is more BREAKING NEWS than some boring old inquiry where nobody flings… out of the room, still screeching.

    Good for Pelosi & Schiff for reminding us all, right up front, that bullshite is still bullshite, no matter how many Repubs & Repub enablers scream that it is really delicious candy, also vitamin-enriched!

  11. 11.

    p.a.

    If the polling trends continue, and there’s no reason to expect otherwise, we may see actual physical intimidation used at the ballot box, not just legislative and procedural (closing/moving polling places) vote suppression/caging, and a ratcheting up of attempts to delegitimize Dem success.
    The baseline assumption is that modern Republicanism is fascism. The playbook is written: we know what they do. Proact, don’t react.

  12. 12.

    Zinsky

    As it becomes even more clear that Donald J. Trump desperately needs to be impeached, Republicans will become increasingly desperate and cray-cray. I wouldn’t rule out violence – but the party leaders won’t participate – they are all gutless cowards. If you punched one in the nose, they would all start crying. Expect them to use proxies instead – the Proud Boys, a motorcycle gang, etc.

  13. 13.

    Steeplejack

    Well, I didn’t see this coming: Grace Slick is 80 years old! Happy birthday, Grace. ???

    Jefferson Airplane, “White Rabbit” (Woodstock, 1969).

    (And “first daughter” Ivanka turns 38. Question: can you still be a first daughter when you’re almost middle-aged?)

  14. 14.

    balconesfault

    McCarthy is just being consistent.

    Republicans like him never cared if the Russians interfered in the 2016 election in favor of Trump (hell – they’d have been fine with finding out the Russians actually flipped votes electronically in midwestern precincts.

    They only cared about why the FBI had the audacity to investigate Russian interference on behalf of Trump.

    And given that this strategy of whining about “poisoned fruit” has worked great for them for keeping their base in line up to now (and the media destracted) … who’s stupid now?

  15. 15.

    David ??Booooooo?? Koch

    onslaught of GOP ‘stunts’ designed to disrupt public impeachment hearings

    Hopefully they’ll self-immolate.

  17. 17.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Elected leaders reflect their voters. McCarthy is an idiot because Republican voters want an idiot. Same with Trump. Republican voters prefer to elect whiny, stupid, bigoted, asshole white men like themselves, with the same Cleek’s Law motivations and beliefs. It’s self-validation.

    @p.a.: and @Zinsky:
    Republican voters are way, way too lazy and cowardly, the same as their officials. This is the primary difference between Hitler and Trump’s base, thank goodness. Oh, they’ll send anonymous threatening phone calls, but the only the tiniest handful will do anything except vote that requires getting out of a chair. Most of those run scared when they don’t have overwhelming odds in their favor. This has already been established in practice.

  20. 20.

    Jeffro

    That James Hohman tweet/Post poll should say “…ONLY 35% of Rs say WH ought to comply.”

    I mean, seriously GOP? Your party has rotted to the point where only a third of y’all even believe in following rule-of-law basics like complying with subpoenas!

    “Integrity? Principles?? Wuzzat?” – trumpublican party since forever but especially 2019

  21. 21.

    Jeffro

    Someone needs to tell McCarthy, publicly, that crooks – and their henchmen – don’t get to sit in on their own investigation.

    (Much less disrupt it, try to intimidate the investigators and witnesses, etc)

    (Much less violate SCIF protocols and endanger national security)

    See ya at the impeachment vote, Kev!

  27. 27.

    ??? Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ??

    @balconesfault:

    And given that this strategy of whining about “poisoned fruit” has worked great for them for keeping their base in line up to now (and the media destracted) … who’s stupid now?

    The GOP because their base isn’t going to be enough anymore

  28. 28.

    germy

    Montgomery County shelter takes in dogs rescued from South Korean meat farm

    Six dogs rescued from a South Korean dog meat farm were brought to the Montgomery County SPCA Tuesday.

    The dogs are from a group of around 90 dogs rescued by the Humane Society International.

    “They’re working with farmers that are in South Korea that had dog meat farms and these dogs are raised for them to eat and to fight and so there are many farmers that would like to get out of that,” said Jan Zumbolo, the President of the Board of Directors of the Montgomery County SPCA.

    Zumbolo said the dogs were brought from South Korea to Canada and then the Humane Society International worked to figure out what shelters could take in dogs.

    https://wnyt.com/news/montgomery-county-shelter-takes-in-dogs-rescued-from-south-korean-meat-farm/5537828/?cat=10114

  30. 30.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I have studiously avoided watching trump’s announcement of al Baghdadi’s death, I mean I do have some self respect, ya know? And if I ever watched Obama’s announcement of Bin Laden’s, it long ago faded from the memory banks. So I had no idea that Obama’s lasted just 9 1/2 minutes but trump incessantly babbled for a full 48 minutes. I can’t believe anybody actually watched the entire 48 minutes but apparently the poor interns at Jimmy Kimmel’s show were forced to (I can’t imagine anybody being paid enough to do it but interns are desperate, they’ll do anything for a chance at a job, right?//)

    We mashed up @BarackObama’s Bin Laden speech with @RealDonaldTrump’s al-Baghdadi speech, and the results are amazing

    Amazingly painful, that is.

  31. 31.

    CarolDuhart

    @Steve in the ATL: I thought when I retired, I was going to sleep in until noon or such. Ha Ha, up earlier than what used to be milkman delivery hours. My cat paces all night and keeps me up. I guess it’s because I’m thinking that “I can sleep anytime, so I won’t”)
    Like rikyah: Good morning, everyione.

  32. 32.

    TS (the original)

    @Patricia Kayden: trumps continuing attacks on Adam Schiff & the support in this from other republicans is vile in the extreme. I will continue to believe that the booing he received in a public place needs to be continued whenever he is seen in public, so he learns what real Americans think of his behavior.

  34. 34.

    trnc

    @Anne Laurie:

    It’s pretty clear that Trump’s strategy, such as it is, will be to throw as much chaff as he & his supporters can produce, in an attempt to distract when they can no longer deny.

    Let’s also not forget that DT, the so called victim of process, is the most process averse person in government, followed closely by senate republicans who won’t vote on house bills and who literally made up a senate rule in order to not vote on a supreme court nomination.

  35. 35.

    CarolDuhart2

    @p.a.: We will have to prepare for some of that. Those who are vulnerable, mentally or physically should vote early and by mail. Go in pairs, even organize poll protection groups to keep some folks away.

  36. 36.

    debbie

    Jesus, NPR is interviewing Rep. Scott Perry (PA) and he’s still trying to pretzel-logic his way as he defends Trump. The call transcript has been proven to be doctored, yet he continues to proceed as if it were proven to be an honest account. Ellipses? Insignificant! And of course, it’s the Dems who keep him from fully divulging all information. Throw in a couple of gratuitous swipes at Vindman just for the hell of it; because others haven’t said the same thing, this is all really just a matter of opinion.

  37. 37.

    frosty

    @Steve in the ATL: @CarolDuhart:
    I’m not retired but I’ve been waking up after four hours lately. I’ve been awake since 4:30. This sucks, hope it’s not The New Normal. Last time I “retired” at 25 my sleep hours were 2:00 to 10:20. I’d like to get back to that.

  38. 38.

    frosty

    @debbie: Perry (spit) was my rep until the PA Supreme Court ungerrymandered us. I knocked on doors to get rid if him in ‘18. Didn’t work, unfortunately.

  41. 41.

    John S.

    @Jeffro:

    It’s ridiculous what a Trump cult the GOP has become. Party over country.

    Even when Clinton was getting impeached for a bl*wjob, at least 40-50% of Democrats supported the process in polls at the time.

  42. 42.

    Betty Cracker

    @debbie: Wingnut attacks on Vindman do seem to be backfiring outside the Fox News bubble, which is one bright spot in this mess. I’m probably too optimistic, but I do think the House Democrats have a good shot at boxing the Republicans in during the upcoming hearings. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell the Senate Repubs will vote to convict, but the Democrats can present the facts in such a way to make it crystal clear Republicans are protecting a lawless, corrupt president out of blind partisanship. The Republican counter-narrative will be presidential harassment-witch-hunt-no-collusion, but the facts are on OUR side.

  43. 43.

    Kay

    @TS (the original):

    Is it working though? Impeachment is fairly popular and smearing the witnesses hasn’t worked at all- there’s no popular uprising against that whistleblower and they’re all frantically denying they smeared yesterday’s witness because it backfired almost immediately. They haven’t dinged these people up at all, and not for lack of trying.

    They don’t have anyone to call for their side is their problem. None of the Trump people will testify because they can’t. The one Trump person who did testify (Sondland) lied and will now have to “correct” his testimony. It seems Rick Perry lied too.
    Who are they going to call? Giuliani? Of course not. They can’t.
    It’s very clever to stonewall and all that, but the practical effect of stonewalling is the President doesn’t have any witnesses defending him or his account or discrediting the witnesses who are testifying against him.
    It seems one-sided because it IS one-sided. The President’s defenders are in this up to their necks so can’t testify truthfully and certainly won’t be called by Republicans.

  49. 49.

    Kay

    If Republicans think it’s unfair that none of Trump’s defenders are testifying they are free to call some of their own witnesses.

    There were Trump lackeys on that call. If they want to discredit our witnesses the way to do that is to call some of the President’s loyalists. If they refuse to appear that’s not the Democrats problem. It’s one sided because none of the Presidents low quality hires are willing to submit to sworn testimony and questioning and the people calling the president out ARE willing to do that. He’s got a pack of loyalists in that White House. If they want to present “their side” or smear or discredit these witnesses they’ll have to show up.

  50. 50.

    chris

    @Steeplejack:

    Grace Slick is 80 years old!

    Thanks for this and the ear worm. One of my alltime faves.

    Happy birthday to my first musical crush! Glad to hear she’s still with us.

  53. 53.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:
    Remember, the Officer from yesterday was important because he filled in the ellipses from the outline of the call to the Ukraine President. Not only in his testimony, but in his formal complaints up the food chain. What they chose to leave out, he filled in.

  54. 54.

    Immanentize

    @p.a.:
    I disagree.
    1) One syllable words are almost always more powerful than two syllable words
    2). Proact isn’t a word. But Proactiv is an acne treatment.

  55. 55.

    CarolDuhart2

    @rikyrah: Where are you? Round here we have had an occasional October snow.
    Kay: and their stonewalling stretches things out into the period where even indifferent voters begin to notice. Apparently nobody has heard of, or can do, “lets cooperate and get it over with” “so we can wrap this thing up, or at least shorten things quite a bit”

    Perhaps they have stopped caring. It’s clear that Trump is getting to the point where he can’t campaign anymore. Pence is no better as a surrogate, so unless they can do a “Rose Garden” campaign, they are screwed. He can’t take events that aren’t sealed away from detractors, and campaigning for a second term means reaching out to crowds that aren’t 100% adoring. It means trips outside the bubble.

  56. 56.

    TS (the original)

    @Kay: I will be interested to see what happens in the vote on Thursday. Will any republicans vote for the formalization of the impeachment inquiry? I believe trump’s attacks are forcing his supporters in the house to continuing attacking Schiff and the process. I am sure some of the more rabid followers are listening intently. I also wonder why he now attacks Schiff rather than Nancy Pelosi(maybe he knows he can’t win this one). The continues to give way too much attention to the GOP attacks on process – it keeps the both sides alive.

    I read intently your well thought out and written posts & they give me much hope that there is no-where else for the GOP to go. I am interested to find out if Sondland is charged with perjury or allowed to change his testimony. I am also wondering when people in the administration will begin to realise they don’t want to go down with the ship. Rick Perry may be considering this now.

  59. 59.

    rikyrah

    @Kay:
    Pack of loyalists who will not put themselves in a legal trickbag. I still believe that is why the G7/Doral scheme fell apart. There was nothing fuzzy about that situation. That was a straight up government contract and someone was going to have to put their name on the dotted line of responsibility for it. Everything is all good for them until legal liabilities come into play.

  61. 61.

    frosty

    @rikyrah: Don’t mean to discredit climate change, but it snowed for the first game of the World Series in Baltimore in ‘79. Not enough to need boots though.

  63. 63.

    mrmoshpotato

    Meanwhile, across the aisle: ‘… Because our lips get tired!’

    Well stop sucking Putin’s asshole, you Russthuglican piles of shit! “Waaahhhh eight pages of reading and no pictures!”

    I’m so fucking tired of a major political party being a bunch of traitorous asswipes. (Apologies to baby wipes and toilet paper.)

  65. 65.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Patricia Kayden: I think the Republicans are doing a fine job of showing the nation they are nothing but a Trump cult. I bet that’s why they are moving to a public hearing to give the House Republicans all the time in the world to babble on national TV like fools.

    At some point it’s going to be to embarrassing for conservatives.

  68. 68.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: I think you’re mostly right, but I’m not giving up on conviction just yet. It’s still very early.

    USAToday poll:

    On one issue, the president’s support sinks to just one in four, a sign of a potential vulnerability. Asked if the White House had an obligation to comply with subpoenas from the House committees demanding testimony and documents, 66% of those surveyed say yes, 26% say no. Those who think the White House should comply with congressional subpoenas include 35% of Republicans.

    There’s that number (or close enough) again.

    But getting back to Obama’s stuff at the top, it’s important to have much more than the facts and an iron-clad legal case. It needs a narrative that is uplifting and supports our values. That’s why Nancy’s soundbites on this are so on-point and important.

    E.g. Twitter:

    Nancy Pelosi ‏Verified account @SpeakerPelosi

    It’s been more than a month and Republicans in Washington still won’t answer the simple question: is it appropriate for a president to pressure a foreign country to undermine our elections?

    Every national security expert knows the answer. #TruthExposed

    9:06 AM – 28 Oct 2019

    Yeah, throw them a bone on the process, but don’t let them drive the narrative. We have the facts, the law, history, traditions, and a gut-based sense of truth and fairness on our side. We need to use all of them.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  69. 69.

    germy

    new by me: Jennifer Van Laar, the RedState reporter behind the Katie Hill affair story that led to her resignation, worked for GOP candidates who ran against Hill, even privately describing herself as the "campaign manager" for a Hill opponent in August https://t.co/QcOaihdFhy— Caleb Ecarma (@calebecarma) October 29, 2019

  72. 72.

    Ken

    @TS (the original):

    Will any republicans vote for the formalization of the impeachment inquiry? […] I am sure some of the more rabid followers are listening intently.

    I’ve been wondering lately whether some Republicans might be physically afraid of their own followers. A representative who voted for this motion would be branded by some of the fringe – heck, quite possibly by Trump himself – as a traitor. And they know there are people out there who would react violently – they’ve been grooming them for years.

  74. 74.

    PAM Dirac

    @frosty: @frosty:

    it snowed for the first game of the World Series in Baltimore in ‘79

    I remember it well. I was sitting in class at an institution of higher learning down 33rd St. that morning and it took a few minutes for my brain to process what it didn’t want to see; it was snowing! I still can’t listen to “We are family” without feeling a twinge of defeat.

  75. 75.

    Betty Cracker

    Trump isn’t the only bubble-dweller. Kushner is at the Future Investment Initiative in Saudi Arabia this week because of course he is, and last night, with a straight face, he said: “The enthusiasm for the president right now at home is stronger than it’s ever been.” I don’t know if he actually believes that or if he’s just trying to shake out every loose coin before the Trump grift train derails, but what a preposterous statement.

  77. 77.

    Kay

    @rikyrah:

    Right, thanks, and imagine what they took out considering what they left in.

    The private testimony is bad enough. They can and will recall these same people to testify publicly. That’s when the complete lack of rebuttal witnesses and/or Trump defenders will come clear to the public. The only people defending Trump will be GOP House members. They don’t have any witnesses for the defense who will agree to appear.

    I think Trump himself knows this. He (reportedly) told his GOP employees in the US House to defend him on substance, to move on from process. But they’re not witnesses and they can’t discredit the D witnesses because they weren’t there or involved.

  78. 78.

    chris

    @Ken:

    I’ve been wondering lately whether some Republicans might be physically afraid of their own followers.

    Also Uncle Vlad. “Well, we have the kompromat so it would be a sad day if you slipped in the shower and fell out the window…”

  79. 79.

    Kay

    @Ken:

    I think this defense of theirs that the base supports Trump so they can’t dissent, is bullshit. If X number of Republicans defied Trump the base would move, just like X number of Democrats called for impeachment and the D base moved. They have agency – they have constituencies. It’s another bullshit excuse.

  80. 80.

    Betty Cracker

    @Ken: That might be part of it, but mostly, I think they fear a primary opponent. Republican politicians are careerists, and until Trump becomes toxic to Republican primary voters, they’ll stick with the orange clown. Simple as that, IMO.

    ETA — @Kay: This too. Defying Trump would take leadership. They’re following.

  83. 83.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Kudos to whoever here predicted the “fruit of the poisoned tree” line when I asked what objection they’d raise when after weeks of demanding open hearings, the open hearings began.

    I’m going to predict that ads for “protesters” start appearing openly in Craigslist.

  84. 84.

    Amir Khalid

    @Betty Cracker:
    Two possibilities:
    1 — Jared is lying. He thinks his audience doesn’t know (which is highly unlikely since professional investors tend to do their homework).
    2 — Jared is bullshitting: he doesn’t care what the truth is, as long as the shit he says sounds positive, and believes his audience either doesn’t know or doesn’t care (which is quite possible).
    A third possibility, that Jared himself doesn’t know, is ruled out: he is officially in charge of the White House impeachment response so he must know. … Oh wait, this is Jared we’re talking about.

  85. 85.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I once taught first year composition in an open-admission business college. To get in, you needed a GED and enough money to pay the substantial tuition. And not a single person in those classes had writing as broken as this.

    Republicans are very unified and energized in our fight on the Impeachment Hoax with the Do Nothing Democrats, and now are starting to go after the Substance even more than the very infair Process because just a casual reading of the Transcript leads EVERYBODY to see that…..— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 30, 2019

  87. 87.

    Ken

    @Amir Khalid:
    4 – Jared and Ivanka are running a long-term con with the end goal of having Trump declared incompetent and all his assets transferred to his family.

    This is almost certainly not the case, but we need to somehow plant it with Trump.

  88. 88.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    Read about him and read film review at Roger Ebert blog found when I did Google search for plot summary of film. Sounds super impressive but also so strong I don’t think I could watch it.

  89. 89.

    hueyplong

    Let’s face it, even the phrase “fruit of the poisoned tree,” if taken merely as an English language phrase outside its legal context, stands as example #45,387 of GOP projection.

    Trump is the fruit of decades of toxic Republican practices.

  91. 91.

    NotMax

    Everyone set for the trick or treaters?

    In all honesty, haven’t seen hide nor hair nor mask of one in many years. Yet still buy a bag of some type of candy every October as I suspect if I don’t have any, that will be the year they show up again.

    (If any show up wearing a Dolt 45 mask, they’re more than likely going away empty-handed.)

  92. 92.

    Ken

    @NotMax: And if they don’t show up, you’ve got a bag of candy to console yourself.

    Hmm, think I’ll give out ice cream bars this year…

  95. 95.

    delk

    Someone should ask if they cannot read eight pages in two days then exactly how many pages can they read in eight days?

  96. 96.

    satby

    @NotMax: I have a sweet story about that. Last Saturday we had the official trick or treat at the Farmer’s Market and I’ve been pretty broke since I bought my booth, which is not in the same location so my business has been off. A market regular, not a customer of mine, was surprised that I wouldn’t be handing out candy and came back to the market after she left with a big bowl and five bags of not cheap candy for me to pass out. Her only request was that I return any leftovers. People can be so kind.

  97. 97.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @NotMax:

    (If any show up wearing a Dolt 45 mask, they’re more than likely going away empty-handed.)

    I would say that all depended on their trick (tripping over their own feet and landing on their face while proclaiming their great and unmatched wisdom would cause me to empty the whole bowl in their bag)

  99. 99.

    Mandarama

    @rikyrah: Snow already? That means my oldest kiddo in his first term of college is getting ready to wake up to Chicago in more ways than one. ?❄️

    Stay warm! ☕️

  104. 104.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Kay:

    The private testimony is bad enough. They can and will recall these same people to testify publicly. That’s when the complete lack of rebuttal witnesses and/or Trump defenders will come clear to the public.

    This is so important. The depositions allow the committees to develop the lines of questioning that will lead to the most damning testimony for Trump.

    Those headlines you see about, for the latest example, the material that wasn’t in the summary of the phonecall? Expect to see video clips of Vindman and others saying this in response to questioning by talented lawyers. Expect the Republicans’ lawyers to sputter a lot.

  107. 107.

    CarolDuhart2

    Can we have a special post about this?

    And apparently some people think the whole thing is a setup with Katie Hill. I know a lot of people wish she hadn’t resigned, but going through a nasty divorce drains one emotionally as well as financially. Here’s hoping she finds a way out and a brighter future. But in the meanwhile:

    Christy Smith Katie Hill’s District. Guess who else is running? George Papadopolous (Coffee Boy).

    I would like to commend Congresswoman @KatieHill4CA for her service on behalf of #CA25 as well as her willingness to put country first by stepping down from office. After much encouragement from community members, today I am proud to announce that I am running for Congress pic.twitter.com/p0Gl6jwc76— Christy Smith (@ChristyforCA25) October 28, 2019

  108. 108.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Amir Khalid: They can read eight pages in 8 minutes too… of Curious George. Dr Seuss on the other hand takes 8 minutes per page. He uses funny words that they have a hard time pronouncing.

  112. 112.

    Immanentize

    @Amir Khalid:
    It’s supposed to be “poisonous” not poisoned. Because a poisoned tree is a dead tree that bares no fruit.

    It actually refers to police misconduct — when they violate the Constitution by, say, beating a confession out of you, the evidence they find from that unconstitutional statement (like the weapon) is considered fruit of the poisonous tree. And also cannot be used in court.

  114. 114.

    Steve in the ATL

    @p.a.:

    @Immanentize: 1) One syllable words are almost always more powerful than two syllable words

    It’s true. Take it from people who write powerful, persuasive arguments for a living.

  115. 115.

    OzarkHillbilly

    A House Republican who’s been parroting GOP complaints about the impeachment probe’s “closed-door” processes admitted on Tuesday that he hasn’t actually participated in any hearings–despite being allowed to attend them.

    “No, I haven’t gone to those,” Rep. Ted Yoho (R-FL), a member of the House Foreign Affairs committee, told CNN anchor Poppy Harlow. “We’ve had discussions in our Foreign Affairs committee on other aspects of what President Trump is doing, so I’ve been involved in those, not in these. I see these as kind of a sideshow.”

    “Why?” Harlow asked.

    Yes, why? Please give us a coherent answer, one that explains your aversion to fulfilling your Constitutional duties.

  117. 117.

    Betty

    @OzarkHillbilly: I finally watched that. Wow! What a pathetic man he is. How any self-respecting person can watch that and say, “Yes, that’s my President” is beyond me.

  118. 118.

    Betty Cracker

    @CarolDuhart2: From what I’ve read, Hill’s ex gave the GOP ghouls something like 400 compromising photos, which they were dangling over her head to force her to resign. I don’t blame her for resigning — who the hell wants their private life exposed like that? But isn’t trafficking in personal photos like that a crime? I sincerely hope Hill’s ex, the RedState person who published the one photo and any GOP officials who’ve transmitted the images get what they deserve.

  119. 119.

    Betty

    @debbie: Scott came close to losing last time. Sure hope the same guy tries again. Scott has been insufferable – one of those that joined the mob even though he is on one of the committees. Jerk!

  120. 120.

    Steeplejack

    @NotMax:

    Everyone set for the trick or treaters?

    I’ll probably go over to Sighthound Hall to have dinner and participate in the Halloween activities. It’s a real neighborhood with real trick-or-treaters. Threadkill Lane is small apartment buildings. We have kids, but it’s not a good venue for Halloween.

    I definitely will get some good candy, because the stuff the brother-in-law had last year was awful. Turned out it was leftover stuff he brought home from the school where he is a special-ed teacher. The “candy” that could pass allergy vetting, special dietary requirements, far-fetched liability concerns, etc.—well, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

  121. 121.

    satby

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: so sweet, thanks!
    I’m moving locations within the market this week, as soon as can arrange movers for the cabinets with granite countertops. They’re heavy! But my newer location is more on the path most people take. So it’ll be a short term problem.

  123. 123.

    glory b

    @Debbie(Aussie): I remember quite a while ago, that Rachel Maddow had a few segments replaying things he said (Hillary Clinton being “untrustable” is the main one I remember).in which she questioned his grasp of the English language.

  125. 125.

    germy

    Almost every woman I know has taken nudes at sometime in her life. As more women under 40 run for office, we are going to have to figure out how to stand together and say it’s the leaking of them, not the taking of them, that is shameful.— ashley FEARbanks (@ziibiing) October 29, 2019

    As someone who talks to a lot of women about running, I can tell you, anxiety around revenge porn is a serious barrier to a lot of young women interested in elected office.— ashley FEARbanks (@ziibiing) October 29, 2019

  126. 126.

    germy

    R.I.P. John Witherspoon.

    He was great as the grandpa in Boondocks, and we enjoyed his work on Black Jesus.

  128. 128.

    dmsilev

    @Betty Cracker: I looked up the California law on revenge porn the other day when this topic came up. It’s an absolutely no-fooling crime, with max penalty of a year in prison, to distribute such photos. Plus you can institute civil suits for damages.

  130. 130.

    Ladyraxterinok

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    In HS I found and read Native Son. Bit hard to read for a protected white girl in the 50s in OK. Lated I read Invisible Man. And BlackBoy. The latter was very disturbing. In the 90s I asked a black male colleague from MS if that story was very accurate. He simply said yes. I can read this stuff up to a point (have read way too many detailed reports of the Holocaust). But watching images is usually too much.

  131. 131.

    rikyrah

    Nooooo…you think?
    Who actually believed it was suicide?
    Come on, now.

    ‘In 50 years I’ve not seen such injuries in a suicidal hanging’: Jeffrey Epstein’s body bore signs of homicide by strangulation NOT suicide, claims pathologist who has examined 20,000 bodies and worked on OJ Simpson and Phil Spector cases

    Former New York City medical examiner Dr Michael Baden said that Epstein’s death was more consistent with homicidal strangulation than by suicide
    The forensic pioneer was hired by Jeffrey Epstein’s brother to look at the case and has been working in the industry for more than five decades
    Baden described how the 66-year-old financier had two fractures on the left and right sides of his larynx, around the Adam’s apple
    Epstein also had a fracture on the left hyoid bone that is above the Adam’s apple
    Baden – who has worked on cases involving OJ Simpson, President John F Kennedy and Phil Spector – said that the three fractures were ‘rare’
    The 85-year-old forensic pioneer added: ‘I’ve not seen in 50 years where that occurred in a suicidal hanging case’
    Epstein was found dead in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional facility on August 10
    By MATTHEW WRIGHT FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

    PUBLISHED: 08:35 EDT, 30 October 2019 | UPDATED: 09:29 EDT, 30 October 2019

  133. 133.

    trnc

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t think there’s a chance in hell the Senate Repubs will vote to convict, but the Democrats can present the facts in such a way to make it crystal clear Republicans are protecting a lawless, corrupt president out of blind partisanship. The Republican counter-narrative will be presidential harassment-witch-hunt-no-collusion, but the facts are on OUR side.

    QFT

  134. 134.

    CliosFanBoy

    @Ladyraxterinok: I read “Black Boy” in High School in the mid 70s. My high school principal was my Dad’s best friend and his wife was my Mom’s. So we took multiple vacations together. The principal had a copy to read because some parent had complained about it being assigned in class. He lent it to me and I read it over a long weekend.

    very disturbing.

  135. 135.

    rikyrah

    @TS (the original):

    I also wonder why he now attacks Schiff rather than Nancy Pelosi(maybe he knows he can’t win this one). The continues to give way too much attention to the GOP attacks on process – it keeps the both sides alive.

    Schiff has had his number from Day One. Plus, he’s probably getting updates from his GOP flunkies on just how well Schiff is running the committee, brooking no nonsense, and putting all the ducks in a row to come and get him.
    Drives him nuts.

    Remember, that clown Nunes used to be Chair of the Committee.

  136. 136.

    Zzyzx

    This is classic conspiracy theory thinking. Asymmetrical truth checking. The slightest flaw in the official story (such as a newscaster stumbling in a breaking story and misspeaking) shows that the entire thing is false but massive flaws in their version are unimportant.

  137. 137.

    glory b

    @Another Scott: I don’ think thre’s anything wrong with discouraging our folks from needing an uplifting narrative for everything.

    Obama was a great orator, and I think we started to get too comfortable in depending on that.

    Great oration and uplifting narratives are good things, but how about we just emphasize that we’re doing the right thing, and the others are just icing on our already-great cake.

    No more of voters saying they weren’t “inspired enough” to go vote. No more excusing them for that. Just vote.

  140. 140.

    frosty

    @PAM Dirac:

    I still can’t listen to “We are family” without feeling a twinge of defeat.

    I hated the song and everything associated with the Pirates. And I’ve never taken being up 3-1 for granted again.

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @germy: It will end up like smoking pot for politicians. Bill Clinton got attacked for it even though shitloads of people in his generation did it. Obama admitted it is a matter of course and everyone but the RWNJs didn’t blink an eye. IOW lives will be wrecked, careers will be destroyed, qualified people will chose not to go into politics over something shitloads of people have done. Oh yeah, lot’s of the people who lead the charge in condemning the behavior will have guilty secrets on their phones.

  143. 143.

    rikyrah

    @germy:

    I have been thinking about this. She did the photos for her HUSBAND, isn’t that right?

    If she hadn’t of slept with the staff, her husband would have been the scumbag villain that he is.
    But, her own poor judgement put her in this position. Without the girlfriend ON HER STAFF, this would have been a very different story, IMO.

  145. 145.

    rikyrah

    @germy:

    R.I.P. John Witherspoon.

    He was great as the grandpa in Boondocks, and we enjoyed his work on Black Jesus.

    RIP….

    ” Just gotta cooorrdinate….cooorrdinate…”

  146. 146.

    Spanky

    @rikyrah: Exactly. She had to resign because of the relationship with one of her subordinates, not because of some pictures her husband took. The media (aka the Republicans) are making this all about her sexytime pics.

    And ftr, I hope they nail hubby’s dick to the wall.

  149. 149.

    Butter emails!!!

    @Tenar Arha:

    So basically what he’s saying is that even the most cowardly Democratic politician is braver than than every living Republican politician.

  150. 150.

    Brachiator

    @germy:

    R.I.P. John Witherspoon.

    He was great as the grandpa in Boondocks, and we enjoyed his work on Black Jesus.

    I really liked his comic persona in films and on tv. Always made me smile. RIP.

  151. 151.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @frosty: Heartfelt second from a lifelong Baltimorean. Have never been able to decide whether the yinzers meant Addams Family or Manson Family. :^p

  154. 154.

    Miss Bianca

    @rikyrah: Me, too. Over six inches of snow fell last night on top of what we’ve already received, and it was -4 outside when we all woke up. Even Roxy the Wolf Girl said “eff this!” after her breakfast potty break, and she and Watson are crashed out on the bed.

  155. 155.

    rikyrah

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    @rikyrah: Bullshit. The two things are separate issues.

    No, they are not. Her poor judgement is what allowed the husband to have the opening.
    Is he scum?
    Yes. No doubt about it.
    But, she couldn’t keep her nose clean until the divorce was final?
    And, not only keep her nose clean, but, not sleep with STAFF?
    I believe, if her girlfriend was someone she met in a bar in DC, she’d still be in Congress.
    SHE SLEPT WITH HER STAFF.
    And, please don’t respond that the staff member hadn’t filed any papers on her. Why would she? She was in the catbird’s seat. The REST of the staff was compromised and a hostile work environment resulted. A hostile work environment is ALWAYS created when you find out that the BOSS is sleeping with one of your co-workers. The entire vibe and balance is off, because everyone is second guessing everything they even think they’re going to say to the boss and the Side Chick.

  156. 156.

    Miss Bianca

    @germy: Scratching my head over this one. I can only think of one photo that my ex took of me that was less than semi-clad, and nothing really revealing at that. Now, granted, he’s not the kind of guy who’d be into revenge porn, but I’m probably just lucky that way. I keep wondering, “who are all these women who are apparently so ready to get nekkid for the camera? How is that even a thing?”

    Chalk it up to generational differences, I guess.

  157. 157.

    Captain C

    @germy:

    R.I.P. John Witherspoon.

    “Put some hot sauce on my burrito, baby, you know you look so good to me…”

    He stole every scene he was in in the Friday movies.

  158. 158.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @rikyrah: Sorry, but legitimizing the revenge porn by making it a part of one big sex scandal is still legitimizing it. Without the pics, she would still be in Congress. And, tbh, I don’t really think that the relationship with the staffer is any of our business either.

  160. 160.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @rikyrah: @Omnes Omnibus: I agree with OO on the revenge porn part, but sleeping with staff is a big no-no regardless of gender owing to the power differential and toxic effect in the workplace. I’m not sure Katie Hill should have resigned over the latter, but some sort of censure was in order.

  161. 161.

    Steve in the ATL

    @PAM Dirac: @frosty: @Uncle Cosmo: when I moved to Atlanta way back in the Roaring Nineties, Willie Stargell’s daughter was my banker.

    I apologize for any additional pain this may cause you.

    Your friend,
    Steve in the WHRVR

  162. 162.

    Brachiator

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I agree with OO on the revenge porn part, but sleeping with staff is a big no-no regardless of gender owing to the power differential and toxic effect in the workplace. I’m not sure Katie Hill should have resigned over the latter, but some sort of censure was in order.

    Maybe some censure, I guess. But we need to dump this excessive puritanism about consensual relationships. For the most part I just don’t care about consensual relationships and will never care.

    The photos crap is of course despicable. There is a GOP political strategist who appears on a local talk radio show here in Southern Cal who is working overtime to exploit this nonsense, to escalate the supposed big sex scandal. He of course wants to see a Republican replace Hill.

  164. 164.

    trollhattan

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Sex with an underling in the workplace is always going to be problematic. Doing same in the wake of the #MeToo movement is thumpingly dumb, naive, or both.

    As to the rest, if her ex violated CA law in releasing photos then I hope he gets brained by same.

  165. 165.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Brachiator:

    But we need to dump this excessive puritanism about consensual relationships. For the most part I just don’t care about consensual relationships and will never care.

    “Consent” is always questionable in power situations. It’s not about being puritanical – I don’t give a fuck about who’s fucking whom or how – it’s about underlings being placed in a situation where saying “no” could put them in jeopardy, and co-workers being potentially disadvantaged. The concept is not hard and it’s written in most office place codes of conduct, including Congress.

  166. 166.

    Origuy

    There’s a Wikipedia entry for Parnas and Fruman. Makes for interesting reading. Fruman once had a bar in Odessa called “Mafia Rave”. As the saying goes, when they tell you what they are….

  169. 169.

    glory b

    @O. Felix Culpa: Yes, my understanding is that Pelosi made this a House rule, no intimate relationships with staff members.

    This is standard in many workplaces. As you said, though, I don’t know if this would lead to resignation, but getting reelected would have been a climb.
    I also read somewhere that Pelosi and the leadership were very upset. Hill flipped a historically Repub seat, and a lot of money was put into her victory. Now they have to start again from scratch.

    And I don’t disagree that it sucks, but the potential power dynamic can’t be dismissed. Also, we might brush it off, but she’s got to run for office, MUCH different than getting through a hiring committee.

  170. 170.

    PJ

    @O. Felix Culpa: @Omnes Omnibus: There’s a reason why almost every major organization forbids management from sleeping with any employees they supervise.

    But, wait a minute, you say, it’s none of our business – if everyone is a responsible, considerate adult about how the relationship begins and ends, no harm, no foul right? Except that responsible, considerate adults are hard to come by in this world, and particularly in a work environment. Furthermore, there is too much incentive for a boss to manipulate an employee into a relationship using the possibility of a promotion or fear of demotion or unemployment. Lastly, it creates resentment from everyone else who thinks the employee is getting unfair benefits at work due to the relationship.

  171. 171.

    geg6

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Heh.

    WE ARE FAMALEE!

    Of course, I don’t watch baseball anymore. No need to do that here in the ‘Burgh. It’s barely a game. Good thing you cry babies don’t have a hockey team, though.

  172. 172.

    glory b

    @rikyrah: Exactly. Having worked on these types of issues, a consensual relationship between a staffer and the supervisor has a negative effect on the others in the office. The belief that the intimate partner is getting favors, raises and opportunities denied others can be toxic.

  173. 173.

    Calouste

    @Debbie(Aussie): I attended a memorial service recently that included a speech by some (I presume evangelical) pastor. It was the same kind of word salad. This kind of illogical, disconnected blabber is apparently what passes of for “wisdom” in those circles, and that’s probably why the shitgibbon is doing far better than he should.

  174. 174.

    Brachiator

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    But we need to dump this excessive puritanism about consensual relationships. For the most part I just don’t care about consensual relationships and will never care.

    “Consent” is always questionable in power situations.

    Always questionable? I don’t agree. People often happily f*ck each other. No one is put in jeopardy. Life goes on.

    The concept is not hard and it’s written in most office place codes of conduct, including Congress.

    Some codes of conduct are stupid. /They try to create unnecessary absolutes over a part of life that can be inherently messy, but not always cause harm. I noted that censure might have been in order. Hill resigned and I respect her decision. But I also hate how GOP political strategists are exploiting the hell out of this situation.

  175. 175.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Miss Bianca: Howdy! We had a light frosting of snow yesterday, which melted away by noon. It’s cold and blustery today. Come visit if you can extricate yourself from snow and obligations!

  176. 176.

    The Moar You Know

    I also read somewhere that Pelosi and the leadership were very upset. Hill flipped a historically Repub seat, and a lot of money was put into her victory. Now they have to start again from scratch.

    @glory b: They should be. I sure am. I’m pissed about a couple of things:

    1. She resigned. Dems need to stop doing that. Republicans never do. Did she think this will save her further embarrassment? It will not. The pics are out in the wild now, everything her ex-husband had. I’m sure I can find them in less than 15 minutes if I wanted to (I do not). Now that she’s resigned, the GOP will use them throughout her former district to smear all Dems as swinging perverts and sickos, and that shit still works on voters whether we think it’s right or not. She should not have resigned. Make them get 66% of House votes and toss her. Can’t happen. She didn’t have to let that seat go and shouldn’t have.
    2. We’re not in a position where we can lose even one House seat, and given the history of the district (yes, I know the PVI is zero, but it has a history) they’ll put in some GOP asswipe and he’ll be able to sit on it for at least one cycle. The one cycle where we REALLY need every House vote we can get.

  178. 178.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Brachiator: Two words: Harvey Weinstein.

    A few more words: It’s intriguing that the folks here arguing that it’s consensual and therefore ok seem to be all men and those saying “nope” seem to be all women. Maybe a difference in lived experience?

  180. 180.

    Elizabelle

    @O. Felix Culpa: Cuts to the chase. Yes, it is abuse of power.

    @glory b:

    Having worked on these types of issues, a consensual relationship between a staffer and the supervisor has a negative effect on the others in the office. The belief that the intimate partner is getting favors, raises and opportunities denied others can be toxic.

    Yes. Katie Hill has terrible judgement in matters of the heart, apparently. She misjudged her former spouse’s character, or lack thereof, and made herself vulnerable by allowing the nude photos. I have not followed the case at all, but it strikes me that an abusive type partner could push the boundaries and demand the photos be taken. Once they are in his/her hands, the partner is vulnerable.

    And: Ms. Hill engaged in a romantic relationship with a subordinate, which was forbidden under House rules. Again, it is abuse of power AND makes the congressperson vulnerable, as well as the aide.

    People in Ms. Hill’s orbit gossiped. Either someone in her office, or another’s, with knowledge of the relationship. Which is how the news got out to Republicans and other opponents.

    I know digital cameras and social media have changed our worlds, and especially younger people’s worlds, enormously. So, even more judgement is called for. It is a whole new field for family and friends’ discussions and consideration of the consequences.

    Would this news be helpful if it got out? If not, think again.

    If TL;DR: WWMOD? WWNSD? WWKHD?

    What would Michelle Obama do? What would Nancy Smash do? What would Kamala Harris do? Would they make themselves vulnerable to abuse and embarrassment, as Ms. Hill did?

    This is not merely an issue of consensual sexual behavior. It is a judgment call, too. (And California now legally protects those who were subjected to revenge porn. It may not also protect those in a position of power who took up a romance with their subordinates.)

    It is a rough, rough world out there for young women, and it is not a fair one, either. Girls Gone Wild. No doubt there may be similar sites/traps for young men, but hardly as prominent.

    The internet remembers, forever. Harsh lesson to learn.

  181. 181.

    The Moar You Know

    It’s intriguing that the folks here arguing that it’s consensual and therefore ok seem to be all men and those saying “nope” seem to be all women.

    @O. Felix Culpa: I’m a male. It may have been consensual but it sure as shit wasn’t “OK”. Fucking your co-workers, even if it’s a lateral move, no power imbalance, between departments, is not OK.

  183. 183.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @The Moar You Know: Thank you. I’ll amend my statement to “those who are arguing on the side of “it’s consensual therefore ok” seem to be all men, and those saying “nope” are mostly women.” :)

  184. 184.

    Elizabelle

    @Elizabelle: The word I was going for is “asymmetrical.” It is an asymmetrical world out there for women, in terms of exploitation, and you have to factor that in. It’s not fair, but it is what it is.

  187. 187.

    Brachiator

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Two words: Harvey Weinstein.

    Two words: stunningly irrelevant. Weinstein was a predator who abused his power and hurt women. How does this compare to Hill in any way?

    A few more words: It’s intriguing that the folks here arguing that it’s consensual and therefore ok seem to be all men and those saying “nope” seem to be all women. Maybe a difference in lived experience?

    You seem to be missing the forest for a bunch of trees.

    I’m defending a woman. And a woman who has been victimized by her husband, with respect to the photos involved. In fact I will even say that she is a woman who is being unfairly hurt by rules which were not neutral, but which were primarily designed to prevent men from abusing women.

    And yes, women can abuse power. As can any person of any gender or sexuality where other people are involved. But Republicans, men and women, caught in a similar situation, would shrug this crap off, or run to Jesus, or pull a Trump. Even if Democrats want to insist on these rules, they need practical and pragmatic ways of measuring any supposed offense, instead of insisting on the insanity of zero tolerance.

    ETA: In my working life I have had to counsel and advise people about what we called “shenannigans” at one job. Where I thought appropriate I would soften official company policy. One situation involved a female supervisor who had recently got a divorce and a tubal ligation and decided to run wild through younger male subordinates and co-workers to make up for lost past opportunities. A messy situation, but those of us who had to deal with this tried to help her regain some balance instead of simply booting her out of the company.

  189. 189.

    Elizabelle

    @Brachiator: Your ETA — Excuse me? That is stunning.

    Katie Hill is not the only person out there with poor judgement. And I speak here not of the recent tubal ligatee, only.

    If the woman supervisor was a male, would you have gone that direction? I do not think so.

    FWIW, I know of an organization that lost numerous excellent employees because the powers that be kept turning a blind eye to an abusive woman executive who made the workplace a living hell for her subordinates. Not in a sexual manner, but in terms of undercutting them and just horrible temperament. People were quitting.

    They finally fired the horrible woman. And then (!) they checked her previous references. Learned that this woman had moved three states north because she was a known quantity in her original city, and unhireable due to her personality. She was good at her job, but at what cost?

    An abusive supervisor/executive is an abusive supervisor.

  190. 190.

    Ken

    @Miss Bianca:

    Chalk it up to generational differences, I guess.

    For my generation, and possibly yours, taking nekkid pictures required a trip to the drugstore to hand the exposed film to the clerk, then a later trick to pick up the negatives and prints from the same smirking clerk. I’m not surprised it’s become more common now that you don’t need the clerk.

  191. 191.

    PJ

    @Elizabelle: @Elizabelle: Many millennials (and younger) are comfortable taking and sending naked selfies, knowing that the internet (or at least the bad parts of it) is forever. I’m not saying everyone below 40 and above 15 has naked selfies floating around, but I would bet it’s a significant proportion of that population. Michelle Obama, Kamala Harris, and Nancy Pelosi would never think about doing that that because they didn’t grow up with the internet or mobile phones. If you are older, having naked selfies taken, even by someone you trust, seems incredibly foolish, particularly if you have any political aspirations, but younger people see it differently.

    None of that, however, excuses Hill from sleeping with her subordinate – in this day and age, that’s just plain stupid. I wonder if her husband might have coerced her into it, but, regardless, that’s a line everyone, young and old, knows should not be crossed.

  192. 192.

    Miss Bianca

    @Ken: True, very true, I had completely forgotten about that aspect of the process! Unless you developed them yourself, of course, in your basement dark room.

  193. 193.

    Elizabelle

    @PJ: Yeah. I know that. But once the photo is out there, you have no control over it. Even if the recipient is trustworthy. Who else can get in and see it?

    Different issue, but think of that college student male who was hospitalized, unconscious, because he’d been anally chugging beer; maybe it was a fraternity hazing stunt. Don’t recall the specifics, but that’s gonna be something every potential employer, and friend, can research, on the internet.

    Social media and the internet have made this a way more treacherous world, and it is not doing younger people any favors to not strongly warn them. (And again, young people. I know. Gonna live forever, indestructible, etc etc etc.)

    So, it comes down to judgment. And being able to learn from others’ experience.

  194. 194.

    Steve in the ATL

    I know you all love and respect me for my labor law expertise, but I have also spent much of my career as an employment lawyer as well.

    Superior/subordinate relationships are never ok for the reasons cited supra in this thread. While some are surely purely consensual, you just never know which ones. And they are an employee relations nightmare for reasons also noted above.

    There are times when people in these situations fall in love and live happily ever after. The proper course of action is for one party to leave the company or transfer into a different reporting relationship.

    In a high profile position such as congressperson, one must be even more careful. Especially when your opponents are sleazy beyond belief (NB: I’m talking about republicans!)

  196. 196.

    PJ

    @Elizabelle: Because they are so ubiquitous now, I think, over time, naked selfies floating around will become so ordinary that it will be no mark against someone in politics or employment. In 1992, Bill Clinton thought he had to declare that he had never inhaled marijuana in order to get elected. 27 years later, it’s no big deal whether a political candidate smoked pot, even if it was done illegally. Assuming society becomes more liberal (maybe a big if), I think selfies will follow that trend.

    As an aside, I recently watched a pre-Code Barbara Stanwyck movie from 1931 called Illicit, about a young woman who doesn’t want to marry her lover because she thinks marriage will ruin their relationship. Eventually, she relents, and, of course, her now husband becomes bored with her and has an affair, etc. It’s not a great movie (though enjoyable), but the presence of this theme in a movie from the 1930’s was a surprise to me – the notion of a committed sexual relationship without marriage wouldn’t really become popular in American culture until the mid-60’s, when it was still frowned upon by “the olds”, and is still looked down upon by a lot of conservatives, but it is kind of the norm now, or at least a stage before marriage. I wonder if the Hays Code hadn’t existed whether more liberal ideas about sexuality (and, perhaps, about racial and sexual equality) might have spread more rapidly.

  198. 198.

    Brachiator

    @PJ:

    It’s not a great movie (though enjoyable), but the presence of this theme in a movie from the 1930’s was a surprise to me

    Pre code movie. In the short period between 1930 and 1934, some movies were amazingly frank for their time

    The TCM cable channel shows them regularly and has a great guide to them.

    And Barbara Stanwyck is great in a number of them.

  200. 200.

    Elizabelle

    @PJ: Yeah. And interesting about the Hays Code. (Mnemo is an expert on films from that era.)

    Again, I have not followed the Katie Hill story at all, but it seems to underscore the concept of boundaries, too. Setting or observing boundaries, the privacy of one’s person, in addition to the improper workplace relationship.

    So much of adulthood is learning who you can trust and be vulnerable with. And who is a predator.

    Sounds like the ex husband is probably a predator who manipulated Katie’s boundaries. They are out there, and they can be very charming and handsome.

    Also risk-taking. Because all politics involves some risk. It can attract a certain type of person. (Thinking here especially of the Republican politicians who run for high office with a mile of skeletons in their past. Also the Michael Avenattis of the world. The Roger Graysons.) Risk and reward and visibility and pushing the boundaries. Katie Hill is responsible for Katie HIll, too.

    Wondering if the euphoria of running a successful campaign triggered some other behaviors. Again, I have not followed the story. But it’s got a lot of moving parts, no?

  201. 201.

    Citizen Alan

    @trnc:

    and who literally made up a senate rule in order to not vote on a supreme court nomination

    A rule they’ve already said they won’t follow if another vacancy comes open between now and the next election. Hell, I bet they’d vote in Shitgibbon’s nominee if a vacancy came open between the election and the next President being sworn in.

  202. 202.

    PJ

    @Brachiator: Over the past few years, I have been watching as many pre-Codes as I can. I particularly love Baby Face. (The Criterion Channel has been streaming about a dozen of Stanwyck’s pre-Code movies (sadly leaving tomorrow, though.)) I guess the surprise for me was how matter of factly, and without judgment, the movie treated the idea of “living in sin”, and portrayed Barbara Stanwyck’s character as being right about the weight of marriage.

  203. 203.

    Brachiator

    @Elizabelle:

    Katie Hill is not the only person out there with poor judgement. And I speak here not of the recent tubal ligatee, only.

    Poor judgment should not automatically be a firing offense.

    If the woman supervisor was a male, would you have gone that direction? I do not think so.

    You be wrong.

    When I worked for a newspaper, there was all kinds of crazy behavior. Drinking, gambling, drug use. People worked long hours and sometimes slept with each other because they were there and it was easier than waiting until you got home. The only automatic firing offenses were fighting and having a gun at work.

    Things got tame much later, but some of the stuff that went on would curl, or straighten, your hair. But the main thing was to get the freaking newspaper out every day. You dealt with the other stuff as necessary.

  204. 204.

    Brachiator

    @Elizabelle:

    FWIW, I know of an organization that lost numerous excellent employees because the powers that be kept turning a blind eye to an abusive woman executive who made the workplace a living hell for her subordinates. Not in a sexual manner, but in terms of undercutting them and just horrible temperament. People were quitting.

    Meant to add this. Sorry for the additional post.

    One of the most abusive relationships that we had to put up with for a while because the woman boss was protected by her superiors was a woman who forced subordinate employees to pray with her and attend her church.

    Abuse of power. Unacceptable. Abuse of employees. Unacceptable.

  205. 205.

    PJ

    @Elizabelle: Some people get a thrill out of politics (not me!) – meeting strangers and getting them to like you and persuading them to vote for you, and the uncertainty about whether or not you will win an election. And then, once they are in office, they still crave thrills, even though they know it could ruin their career if they are discovered, and they know they have enemies who are working to ruin their career. I’m thinking about Bill Clinton, who maybe craved, not just sex, but the thrill of persuading different women to sleep with him, or Eliot Spitzer, who – though he had been DA – wired (!) thousands of dollars to an escort agency. It’s more than being stupid, because they have to know it’s stupid, it’s probably the thrill of getting away with it too.

  207. 207.

    Woodrow/asim

    I am beyond exhausted by the idea that a Democrat’s stand on ethics should depend, in any way, on “what would the GOP do?”

    Rep. Hill made that decision to leave On Her Own.

    “I would have hoped that she had stayed a little bit longer…. But she had made her decision and that was it,” Pelosi said in an interview with a small group of columnists on Monday. “She just made her decision that whatever was coming at her, she decided that she was going to be leaving.”

    Why are so many invested in seeing this solely thru a GOP, or “pure” politics, based lens? That lens is valid yet should never invalid the decisions of the people at it’s center. As a Bisexual woman dealing with a divorce and revenge porn, there’s clearly a lot more at play here that we need to respect, and not just layer our political anxieties and wishes on top of.

  208. 208.

    rikyrah

    @Miss Bianca:

    @Ken: True, very true, I had completely forgotten about that aspect of the process! Unless you developed them yourself, of course, in your basement dark room.

    Reminds me of that movie with Robin Williams as the creepy photo developer guy.

  211. 211.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Elizabelle: @Brachiator: the dirty secret of employment law is that following the law is frequently less important than being consistent. I’ve seen clients get away with flagrantly illegal behavior for years because they were consistent in responding to it. This may describe the newspaper situation to a degree. Since I work in the field I may take a harder line than most people on this stuff, but you really do have to look at each situation on its own. Sometimes matters can be resolved internally if caught early enough, but can’t be contained (and shouldn’t be) if they get bigger. Or if someone files an EEOC charge or emails the CEO.

    @O. Felix Culpa: I knew I was pushing it but hoping that at least some posters were drunk already!

    Steve who is no longer rolling in his rental 5.0 with the top down so his hair can blow because it’s pouring rain here and anyway I have to catch a flight to another third rate city and then drive to a tenth rate town and it’s also pouring rain in both those locations

  212. 212.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: Yup.

    I heard stories of a lower-level manager who (years ago) would have group lunches with his underlings nearly every day and they’d all pray together. At work.

    Um, er… :-/

    How on Earth would you know if that was consensual or not?! It’s similar with messing around with your underlings. There are very good reasons why there are sensible policies forbidding it.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  215. 215.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Elizabelle: Or compulsive/addictive behaviors. It’s sad when otherwise excellent people self-sabotage. It’s very hard to break those addictive behavior patterns.

  217. 217.

    Omnes Omnibus

    I’ll amend my comment on the sleeping with the staffer situation. It is fraught with power issues and is something that her voters should know about. I think I let my distaste for the revenge porn color my views. That being said, I still say that the issues are separate. One is a common occurrence among people young than most of us. The other isn’t.

  218. 218.

    J R in WV

    @Brachiator:

    When I worked for a newspaper, there was all kinds of crazy behavior. Drinking, gambling, drug use. People worked long hours and sometimes slept with each other because they were there and it was easier than waiting until you got home. The only automatic firing offenses were fighting and having a gun at work.

    I grew up in a small town newspaper family, two newsrooms, morning paper, afternoon paper sharing a production plant. I’ve heard great stories about popular and effective staff who kept a bottle in the tank of the toilet. Always a little drunk, never incapable of doing the job!

    During the “Bank Holiday” when FDR closed the banking system for a week in 1933, the business was in danger of going under, not because they didn’t have a going concern, but because their bank was closed. “Skinny” Ellison, who was mechanical foreman when I worked there, was a young hell raiser printer who could go the the Dunmoore Hotel (a notorious gambling den with prostitutes on the C&O main line) and borrow enough cash on a handshake to keep my granddad’s business afloat by making payroll and paying other costs that week… the business was still going strong when the family sold out in the mid 1970s.

    The newspaper business was wild and woolly in the 1930s, AND in the 1970s when I worked there. Fired for a gun? Hell, our police reporter had a holster sewn onto the side of his convertible seat! Also had a bubble light he could put on the fender of the car…

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