Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

You can’t love your country only when you win.

We still have time to mess this up!

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

Consistently wrong since 2002

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

Conservatism: there are some people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

You are here: Home / Politics / Impeachment Inquiry / Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Back in the (TV) Box

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Back in the (TV) Box

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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

Fortunately, the GOP is all in favor of enhanced interrogation techniques, so they can hardly claim *this* is torture…

… Pelosi also refused to elaborate on what — if any — charges House Democrats would bring against Trump, notably declining to say whether the president’s Twitter attack on former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch during her testimony amounted to witness intimidation.

“I haven’t had a lot of time to pay attention to the president’s tweets and the legal implications of them. I just think that was totally wrong and inappropriate and typical of the president,” Pelosi said on CBS’ “Face the Nation“ in an interview that aired Sunday…

“The president of the United States was using the massive powers entrusted to him to try to use tax payer dollars as leverage to get a foreign country to interfere in an election,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) told Chuck Todd on “Meet the Press.”

“If you don’t use impeachment for this type of offense, then I am not sure what you use it for.”

Murphy’s remarks came after a week in which House investigators — and millions of Americans — heard detailed accounts about the pervasiveness of the campaign to pressure Ukraine into helping the president damage a top political rival, the smearing of reputations along the way and Trump’s direct involvement in the effort…

The slate of hearings this week will kick off Tuesday morning with testimony from Jennifer Williams, a top aide to Vice President Mike Pence, and Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, a senior official on the National Security Council.

Both Vindman and Williams were on the July 25 call between Trump and Zelensky and later expressed alarm about the president asking for “a favor” that included investigating an energy company associated with Biden’s son…

Reader Interactions

169Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    If you don’t use impeachment for this type of offense, then I am not sure what you use it for.”

    Democrats, of course.

  2. 2.

    Elizabelle

    Nancy Smash is a genius with her timing. She has always been working hard on this, behind the scenes. She has Trump’s number.

    I got so tired of those here and elsewhere who were whinging about what a surrender monkey and prisoner of Wall Street capital she is.

    She has always seen very clearly Trump’s danger, and how she and her team can most effectively fight back. Timing, preparation, and building numbers are everything.

  3. 3.

    Dan B

    I hope that the Dems are formulating some plans for what to do if Moscow Mitch and Bill Barr refuse to allow federal agents to arrest Giuliani or any other of the witnesses who have refused subpoenas.  I know they can be denied funds but that seems like weak tea if the plan is to prevent the removal of Trump or Pence in January 2021.  We’ve got a lot of constitutional crises already in play but there seems to be a pattern of the GOP and Barr to completely ignore the constitution.

     

    Is the plan to grind down the GOP completely?  It seems like there are too many who are criminally culpable and willing to subvert the rule of law to protect their own skins.

  6. 6.

    WereBear

    @Dan B:Is the plan to grind down the GOP completely?

    I *&$^ hope so!

    The mere act of enforcing all known laws will remove their leadership, because I can’t believe there isn’t one of them who hasn’t taken blood money.

  7. 7.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Elizabelle: Also a slam dunk case even a simple minded fool (read “Republican”) could wrap their head around, didn’t hurt. Not that that will change the minds of any Senators with an R following their names, but it will take some of the wind out of their 2020 sails, hopefully leave them dead in the water. That is after all, what really matters.

  10. 10.

    Elizabelle

    @OzarkHillbilly:   Events have not played out.  We don’t know what else might drop that makes it more dangerous to GOP to continue to wrap themselves around Trump.  We don’t know what is going to happen to Trump himself.

     

    Immanetize pointed out that the Supreme Court could decide not to take up the issue of Trump’s tax returns, and if so, we could have a decision there by December or so.  Let it stand with the lower court rulings, which have gone against Trump.

     

    I am not one of “the Senate will never convict” types, but have certainly been wrong before.

  12. 12.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Elizabelle:

     

    I am not one of “the Senate will never convict” types, but have certainly been wrong before.

    Neither am I, but as things stand now I don’t see it. If he shot Nancy Pelosi in the middle of Pennsylvania Ave, the cult wouldn’t just cheer, they would crown him King for life, Hero of the Revolution. If he shot Mitch McConnell? They would say he obviously deserved it. So I can’t imagine what he could possibly do to change the math.

    There might be a bridge to far for the cult. Maybe if trump got up on national TV and said Obama was right all along about everything. That might do it.

    Elected Republicans can’t win without the base. As far as I can see, the only thing that will change their minds is if they can’t win with just the base. KY and LA should be weighing on their minds right now, tho to what extent I don’t know.

  13. 13.

    Baud

    @OzarkHillbilly:

     

    There might be a bridge to far for the cult. Maybe if trump got up on national TV and said Obama was right all along about everything. That might do it.

     

    That’s the thing. The base isn’t loyal to Trump. They’re loyal to their hatred of us. That’s why they like Trump. If Trump does become a big enough anchor that the base comes to believe their hatred of us will be rendered less effective, you could see the tide turn. But it’s a long shot.

  15. 15.

    Zinsky

    It really is remarkable (and lemming-like) that not a single Congressional Republican is willing to admit that this sleazeball is a criminal and a sexual deviant.

  16. 16.

    JPL

    @Baud: In 2020 we will have the opportunity to flip two Senate seats in GA.   Although it’s unlikely with a strong candidate like Stacey, it’s possible.   Unfortunately, she herself admitted she doesn’t like legislative work.   The one thing she could have accomplished is getting out the vote.   There’s no doubt, that McBath was helped by her running for governor.

  17. 17.

    Baud

    NPR headline

    Poll: Americans Overwhelmingly Say Impeachment Hearings Won’t Change Their Minds

    Sounds like a waste of time then.

    A few paragraphs down.

    But 65% of Americans say they can’t imagine any information or circumstances during the impeachment inquiry where they might change their minds about their position on impeachment. Just 30% say, yes, it’s possible.

    So basically, Dems already support impeachment and Republicans oppose it, and just going to ignore that 30% of the electorate that is still up for grabs.

  20. 20.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Proof that nobody with half a brain wants to live in that socialist hell hole called California. Certainly nobody with any kind of money.

    Top Most Expensive U.S. Zip Codes in 2019

    As has increasingly been the case throughout the years, California was once again the uncontested leader of pricey zip codes. Hitting an all-time high in 2019, California claimed a jaw-dropping 91 zip codes of the 125 zips featuring the 100 most expensive medians, including 6 of 10 priciest. And, although New York State is far from a true rival of California’s sky-high residential prices, it remained the East Coast’s most expensive market, ranking 18 zips in our top 100 – the second-highest number and just one zip less than last year.

    California’s growing domination of our top 100 comes as no surprise, considering the dynamic price growth recorded in the state’s most important metros. Nearly half of Metro L.A.’s markets saw their medians rise at least 20% in just five years, while a third of the Bay Area underwent price surges of 40% or more.

    Ooops.

    Although California and New York State completely dominated 2019’s top 100, isolated pockets of extreme affluence and luxury real estate meant that the zip codes of nine additional states made the ranking zips. Specifically, Connecticut and Massachusetts each contributed three zips, New Jersey, Nevada and Washington had two each, and Arizona, Florida, New Hampshire and Maryland are each represented by one zip.

    Sooo many blue states. This is discrimination against the great and prosperous states of Oklahoma! Alabama! Idaho! Mississippi!

  21. 21.

    eclare

    @Baud: Gawd that is awful journalism, 30% is a huge percentage of Americans.  What was the margin for Florida in the last Senate and Gubernatorial races, something around 1%?

  23. 23.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Elizabelle: Yeah, I will defer to Speaker Pelosi’s judgment from now on.  She knows  what she’s doing and is a brilliant politician.  Look how she played Trump during the shutdown.

  25. 25.

    JPL

    @Patricia Kayden: Same

    It’s embarrassing to admit but a few years ago. I wondered if she shouldn’t step aside and let someone younger step in.   I admit that I was wrong and we are so lucky that we have her.

  28. 28.

    dnfree

    @eclare: Maybe some of the 30% who could change their minds are people who currently support impeachment but could decide evidence isn’t strong enough?

  32. 32.

    Bruce K

    You may not always agree with Nancy Pelosi’s opinions – she’s older than the Boomers, and grew up in a different world than the one we’re inhabiting, so in some respects the world may have progressed faster than she was able to keep up – but she’s practically without equal when it comes to legislative tactics and strategy. In a sense, she’s like General Patton, only (I suspect) with less of an ego getting in her way – you may not want her in front of the cameras, but by all that’s holy, you couldn’t ask for a better person to manage fighting a legislative war.

  35. 35.

    Amir Khalid

    @Baud:

     

    Two Democratic senatots from Georgia would be something.

    Now that you mention it, is there a minimum age for election to the US Senate?

  36. 36.

    Frankensteinbeck

    I love Pelosi, but the timing was determined by Trump’s ‘transcript’ confession.  If she has a genius here, it may be that she knew if she waited, he would self-impeach.

  39. 39.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @JPL:

      I’m still laughing my ass off at their admission that they are all on meth. We’ve all known it for years but I never expected them to admit it.

  40. 40.

    JMG

    An effective legislative leader, particularly a Democratic one who must nurse a broader multi-opinion coalition, spends a good deal of time waiting for Reps to make up their minds. This drives outside partisans crazy, but Pelosi excels at the skill because she’s willing to take the heat to protect her risk-averse caucus members from said partisans.

  44. 44.

    MJS

    @Bruce K: I, for one, wouldn’t mind seeing Nancy slap some people across the face and call them goddamn cowards (to extend your George Patton reference).

  45. 45.

    Sab

    @Frankensteinbeck: That is it exactly. She knows what she wants and she knows timing.

    She was a mayor’s daughter and a wife who  raised a bunch of kids before she even returned to the politics she was born into.

    Live your life before politics. Then you might actually know something.

    That’s where my Congressman ( Tim Ryan) screwed up. He is a bright guy, but he doesn’t actually know much of anything, because he went into politics too soon.

  46. 46.

    Amir Khalid

    @Elizabelle:

    I think what it takes to compel Republican Senators to vote for removing Trump is a stark choice: either he goes down or they do. That, it seems to me, would require an overwhelming majority of their voting base demanding it, or else. The testimony in the House enquiry has been damning, but it doesn’t feel to me like that tipping point is at all close.

  48. 48.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Frankensteinbeck: Speaker Pelosi knew that the Mueller report wasn’t enough to get the public behind impeachment and patiently waited until Trump impeached himself.  Now, she has Republicans on the defense and when Republican Senators vote to acquit him, they’ll have to explain themselves to a public which overall supports Trump’s impeachment.

  49. 49.

    WereBear

    @Sab: the experience of any financially secure white guy must be expanded for real understanding. Most of them don’t bother.

     

    Which is why the unleashing of previously oppressed talent is so intimidating to them.

  52. 52.

    NotMax

    Move over, civet cat coffee.

    The makers of a South African gin infused with elephant dung swear their use of the animal’s excrement is no gimmick.

    The creators of Indlovu Gin, Les and Paula Ansley, stumbled across the idea a year ago after learning that elephants eat a variety of fruits and flowers and yet digest less than a third of it.

    “As a consequence, in the elephant dung, you get the most amazing variety of these botanicals,” Les Ansley said during a recent visit to their operations. “Why don’t we let the elephants do the hard work of collecting all these botanicals and we will make gin from it?” he recalled his wife suggesting. Source

    Can the dry Fartini be far behind?

  56. 56.

    Baud

    @NotMax:

    Why don’t we let the elephants do the hard work of collecting all these botanicals

    Worst reason ever to be laid off from a job.

  59. 59.

    satby

    @NotMax: ok, that’s a coffee I wouldn’t try. Fortunately highly unlikely to be offered it. And I’m speaking as one of the few people in this here blog who’s made elephant poop paper.

  60. 60.

    satby

    @Baud: has been since the first attempt at a Muslim ban.

    I really give Qunoot’s parents major respect that they let her come back this semester, it must be 3 1/2 months of pure anxiety for them.

  63. 63.

    mrmoshpotato

    @NotMax:

    the droppings are dried and crumbled, then washed to remove dirt and sand. Eventually, only the remains of the fruits, flowers, leaves and bark eaten by the elephants are left behind.

    Yeah, but still…

  65. 65.

    Sab

    @debbie: You get yourself elected to a job you are not yet qualified for in your twenties, that inflates your ego.

     

    I am actually very sad. I have disliked him for years as my Congresscritter. In the 2016 election cycle I got included on some of his whatever you call telephone broadcasts.

     

    He was really pretty sharp on policy, and leftier than I would have expected.

     

    But he is a product of his environment, which is politics. He doesn’t seem to have any core values other than worrying about struggling single moms.

     

    I am okay with that as a core value of my congressman.

     

    But otherwise he doesn’t seem very foccussed on anything other than ambition.

     

    Why did he think this was his time to run for president (massive fail) Why did he think  Nancy Pelosi was not a good speaker of the house ???

     

    My personal opinion, from Ohio, is that Catholic parochial schooling turns promising young men into idiots. Puts blinders on them. Takes them too many years to kick off, and meanwhile the money guys weasel in.

    ???

  70. 70.

    germy

    I mentioned Rudy’s son in one of yesterday’s threads.

     

    But I didn’t know at the time he “works” in this administration.  But no one can say what exactly he does, other than draw a salary.

  72. 72.

    Kay

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Congress all knew the Ukraine aid had been held up – for months- and many of them probably knew why it had been held up because they were asking- making formal requests- and no one could answer their questions.

    Pelosi knew more then her detractors. She had information they didn’t have.

    The public were the absolute last people to find out. Congress knew, the State Department knew, they were quite literally either working to release the aid or limit the damage- for months and months.

    They know Trump can’t unilaterally hold up funds Congress allocates. It isn’t his money. It doesn’t pass thru Donald Trump and the sleazy Trump Administration hires as a checkpoint before release. The President doesn’t have that power in our system.

  73. 73.

    mrmoshpotato

    @germy:

    I mentioned Rudy’s son in one of yesterday’s threads.

    But I didn’t know at the time he “works” in this administration. But no one can say what exactly he does, other than draw a salary.

    What he does? Given current events and who his father is, is it safe to assume crimes?

  75. 75.

    Ken

    Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Sunday left open the possibility that Democrats’ impeachment inquiry will continue into next year

    “We’re trying to wrap this up, but they keep committing crimes…”

    Call it Mueller’s Law.

  77. 77.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab:

     

    Catholic parochial schooling turns promising young men into idiots

    I don’t know. I know too many said products (I’m one) who have rejected everything they “learned” there (they learned to reject it?) that wasn’t independently backed up by facts. Admittedly this is a self selecting group, but I think it’s more like a 40/40/20 wash, with 40 percent becoming ex Catholics (waves hand), 40 percent becoming half Catholics (birth control? Damn right! Abortion? “That’s personal.” Marriage for priests? Duh. Women in the clergy? Why the fuck not? Practicing Gays receiving communion? Why not? Practicing gays are serving communion.) (what they get out of the religion, I don’t know. The comfort of ritual I suppose) And the last 20% becoming the hard core Opus Dei types.

  78. 78.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Kay:

    They know Trump can’t unilaterally hold up funds Congress allocates. It isn’t his money. It doesn’t pass thru Donald Trump and the sleazy Trump Administration hires as a checkpoint before release. The President doesn’t have that power in our system.

    Sounds like Speaker Pelosi needs to explain that to them like they’re children – very stupid, bratty children.

  79. 79.

    Kay

    It would maybe fall on deaf ears and it would definitely bore the pizzazz crowd but maybe Schiff could do a brief explanation of how funds move from Congress to the destination- the intended recipient. Explain that process.

    Because even if one believes the Republican excuses that withholding aid (or diverting it)  was about US foreign policy rather than a sleazy Trump deal, what Republicans say Trump did isn’t permissible either. It’s Iran-Contra.

    Trump can have a foreign policy. But he can’t fund it without congressional appropriation and he can’t re-direct money Congress allocates- just like he can’t unilaterally redirect funding intended for Ukraine to a

    country or cause he likes better he also can’t withhold it.

  80. 80.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay:

     

    The President doesn’t have that power in our system.

    Recent events say otherwise. He can and did do it. For the wrong reasons, hence “abuse of power”, a power he had.

  81. 81.

    Sab

    @Kay: In my youth, I remember one of the big fights with Nixon was the line item veto. He had to take the budget they passed. He couldn’t delete particular items they passed that he didn’t like. They were the first branch of government, he was in only the second branch. Apparently that has all gone down the memory hole.

  84. 84.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab:

      And what I said at #77 applies to both male and female tho I find more women are half Catholics than men.

  85. 85.

    Ken

    70 percent believe he did something wrong.

    So his main hope is that 70% splits, with no more than 20% believing his guilt in any particular crime he’s committed.

  86. 86.

    J R in WV

    @Amir Khalid:

     

    I think Senator Robert Byrd was 92 when he died in harness. He was young when he was first elected. Went to night school while in the House to become a lawyer.

     

    Lived in the same small home all his life, his wife made his lunch every day, was not wealthy when he died. My wife knew him pretty well and respected him a great deal for his growth from a racist in his early life into a compassionate member of the liberal movement.

     

    Unlike Strom Thurmond who was the oldest Senator, but still a racist til the day he quit thinking, quite some time before he died. Left an African-American daughter IIRC. From the housekeeper he raped as a young man. The polar opposite of Mr Byrd.

  88. 88.

    Immanentize

    @satby: I’m speaking as one of the few people in this here blog who’s made elephant poop paper

    Ok, who are the others? I think we all need their names.

  89. 89.

    Kay

    @Frankensteinbeck:

     

    It just bugs me how the timeline is being portrayed. The public found out with the whistleblower and then the release of the transcript. Pelosi had way more information than that and she had it for months. So how would that have gone, if she had been the source of the allegations? She holds a press conference in September and says “everyone in Congress knows the Trump Administration held up these funds and I’m here to tell you why”? She needed corroboration. This timeline removes agency and planning from Pelosi and I don’t think that’s accurate or makes sense. I don’t know why people just won’t give it to her. She won this. She beat him.

  90. 90.

    Immanentize

    @Kay:

    They know Trump can’t unilaterally hold up funds Congress allocates. It isn’t his money. It doesn’t pass thru Donald Trump and the sleazy Trump Administration hires as a checkpoint before release. The President doesn’t have that power in our system. 

    That will be the very heart of their defense in the Senate. Aid wasn’t withheld, at worst it was delayed. The President has a role in making sure all the strings Congress puts on aid are carefully checked before it is released. No harm, no foul.

    It’s not a great defense, but it might sadly prove to be enough.

  91. 91.

    Sab

    @OzarkHillbilly: I am a high church Episcopalian ( please don’t laugh) married to a parochial schooled Catholic. He has found it wrenching to align his politics with his religious beliefs. Which shouldn’t be hard but it is. I remember him getting into some twitter or previous internet battle with some cardinal in Colorado in the early oughts. Cardinal wanted to excommunicate him for some minor political infraction. He said if his own bishop did that he would leave the Church without looking back.

    He is a devout Catholic.  All this political mayhem is really difficult for him. But if his beliefs contradict Catholic teachings, he will still believe the values they used to teach. He hasn’t changed. The USA Catholic church has.

     

    As an Episcopalian, I could say I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I do. That dog is my husband, and the Catholic church is tearing him apart. And as far as I can tell, his hierarchy doesn’t care. He is just a sheeple.

  94. 94.

    NotMax

    @J R in WV

    Trivia: The longest lived person who was at any time of life a Senator was Cornelius Cole, who was born when James Monroe was president and lived to nearly 103.

  95. 95.

    Immanentize

    @Sab: Are you thinking if Reagan?  He is the one that really pushed the line item veto (Give me what so many governor’s have….).  Then Clinton got it only to have the Supreme Court declare it unconstitutional in the late nineties.

  98. 98.

    Kay

    @Sab:

     

    Right, Reagan too, and of course they can’t have a line item veto. If they have a line item veto Congressional power is vastly reduced and their (individual) power is vastly expanded.

    There’s two possible explanations for this – both of them are illegal. The best case scenario for Trump is Iran-Contra. The worst case is what actually happened. Not only did he usurp power and money he doesn’t have he also did it for sleazy and illegitimate purposes.  If Trump wants to cut off Ukraine for whatever reason he has to convince Congress to do that. Which was never going to happen. So he inserted his sleazy hires who held it up and then lied about it. They would have had to lie about it under any circumstances, just like all the Reagan people lied in Iran Contra.

  99. 99.

    ola azul

    @Patricia Kayden:

     

    Time was, stop-and-frisk was Bloomberg’s pet, plenty fine for reining in “those people” and plenty useful for demagoging “tough-on-crime” votes.

     

    Now, the first hot-minnit Lizzie Warren proposes a stop-n-frisk policy for long-offending unpatriotic thieving billionaires with sumpins to hide, *well* madame, *that* is a bridge too far!

     

    Will no one spare a charitable thought or shed a commisserative tear for the wounded fee-fees of besieged billionaires? Michael Bloomberg will!

     

    (Myself, am hopeful Bloomberg’s asinine savior run will have the welcome knock-off effect of hastening the demise of Joe “I-Can-Do-What-Obama-Couldn’t-Cuz-I’m,YaKnow-White!” Biden.)

  100. 100.

    Ken

    Come to think of it, that poll explains something I heard yesterday.  I was traveling and caught a bit of Fox News in the hotel.  The reader said something like, “But do Americans think the President did something wrong, and do they think he should be impeached?  We’ll hear from some Republican Senators who say no.”

    Because of course they couldn’t use actual polls to see what Americans think, because they don’t give the answer they want.

  101. 101.

    low-tech cyclist

    In the Toles cartoon, I wonder how many people got the Genesis* reference in “hovering over the surface of the deep state.”  Well played, Mr. Toles!

     

    *The book of the Bible, not the rock group

  102. 102.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

     

    I think that will be the senate defense too – because it’s the only serious defense that could possibly be offered and it will appeal to the fancier senators because they’re rather argue sep of powers and process than the facts of this case- so Schiff should preview it and knock it down preemptively. I think he does a good job though so I’m sure they thought of it.

  104. 104.

    Immanentize

    @germy: Ha!  I love it!

    I might have said this before, but the Immp has a group of buddies, a number of whom are gay.  One of them made up wallet sized laminated cards with his picture on it, smiling, thumbs up, that says,
    “(Local) Chick Fil-A.  Now Gay Approved! Yummmmy!”
    Cracked me up, these kids.

  105. 105.

    Baud

    @Ken:

    “We polled a thousand criminal defendants for their views on whether they should be convicted. The results will surprise you!”

  107. 107.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

     

    I mean, it’s sort of a strategy. The problem is even if they justify withholding the aid under presidential powers they still have the “why” problem. Which is a big problem.

  108. 108.

    Sab

    @Immanentize: You are younger and more informed than me. You are also much younger and much more informed than Trump.

     

    I remember the Nixon line item veto battles. I wasn’t watching when Reagan lost his line item vetos battles. Didn’t matter so much since he won most battles in Congress.

     

    Enlightening, however. There are three branches, and the Article I one does matter, if it cares to assert itself.

  110. 110.

    Immanentize

    @Ken:They announced that they were no longer going to fund anti LGBT+ organizations, which was part of their “get your hate on” advertising campaign in the oughts. That last bit might be hyperbole.

  111. 111.

    zhena gogolia

    Too busy to watch much today (I hope Vindman is on at my lunch hour!). No doubt Stefanik is going to pull some stunts again, since it made her a “star” (according to NYT and Russian TV).

  113. 113.

    germy

    Chick-fil-A announced it is going focus its philanthropic efforts on sheltering the homeless and feeding the hungry, and Rod Dreher thinks they are abandoning their Christian values.— Robert Tebbenkamp (@RHTebbenkamp66) November 19, 2019

  115. 115.

    Another Scott

    @Sab: If it’s any consolation, he’s not alone.

     

    My MIL was somehow excommunicated/prevented from taking the Eucharist from the Catholic church.  I don’t remember the details, but her first husband was killed in a plane crash in WWII and there was some issue with her remarrying years later.  So they (effectively) kicked her out.  It hurt her for the rest of her days.

     

    Her twin daughters were told (as children) that they were going to Hell because they were Confirmed before they had their first Confession (as the result of some sort of a mix-up and confusion on moving to a different state – none of which was their fault).

     

    :-(

     

    Best of luck, to both of you.

     

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  116. 116.

    low-tech cyclist

    @OzarkHillbilly: I want a bumper sticker.

    Me too!  When I first saw that last night, I was laughing so hard, I was gasping for breath in between laughing.

     

    I can’t believe SD hasn’t taken that web page down yet.  You bet I’m getting a screen cap of it.

  119. 119.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: it’s a huge problem.  It was corrupt by any standard.  But they will trot out this tripe.  I also expect the Republicans to talk about the Impoundment Act of 1974 and how that improperly restricted presidential powers to impound congressionally appropriated funds.  It’s just dirt thrown in the eyes, but they will have Cato Institute folks sounding serious as they mansplain the President’s rights to do what was done.  Ugh.

  120. 120.

    ola azul

    @Immanentize:

     

    [The Reagan/Clinton progression you cite] really gives the lie to alla this horseshit we hear from the Dishon. Wm. “Bagman” Barr about the unitary executive.

     

    Ya, right. As long as it’s a Republican preznit. Soon’s a Democratic president is in office, alla that precious theorizing and dancing on the heads of pins gets shit-canned and “prudent executive oversight” is the order of the day.

     

    Boilt down Barr: Republicans can do whatever they wanna do w/o consequence; Democrats have no legitimate right to govern. Period.

  123. 123.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab:

     

    I am a high church Episcopalian ( please don’t laugh)

    As an atheist who is ignorant of most things religion, I don’t get the joke so no laughter from this quarter.

    That dog is my husband, and the Catholic church is tearing him apart.

    Tell him I said there is life after Catholicism. Also tell him that the Episcopal Church will welcome him with open arms.

  124. 124.

    ThresherK

    @germy: I’m just gonna say that, ages ago, Child Protective Services shoulda taken the kid away from what was obviously an unfit home. Genuinely hope this doesn’t happen to Barron.

     

    —

     

    I have discovered a YouTube channel which got its hands on some genuine Muzak and now I feel like I’m shopping at a Bradlees in the ’70s.

  126. 126.

    low-tech cyclist

    @germy: Some things just leave you shaking your head, don’t they?

     

    You know what would be cool?  If Dreher were to get a whole bunch of Bibles in the mail, with relevant passages about feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless bookmarked and underlined.

  127. 127.

    mrmoshpotato

    @germy: But they’ll go on being anti-gay for Jesus, as the Bible intended.

     

    Oh how Jesus hated the gay chickens in the temple.

  129. 129.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: yes.  I would be a bit freaked out if I were Stefanik.  The backlash wiped out Stefanik’s big campaign cash on hand lead.  But I’m not her, so I can laugh heartily.

  134. 134.

    Sab

    @OzarkHillbilly: I am a believing Christian, and I don’t want him to bail into disbelief. He is teetering there now, and he is not at all comfortable with that. And I am incredibly uncomfortable with discussing his forays into atheism. Talk about it with other people. I won’t discuss it openly with you. I believe in God, and I do not want to talk about not God with you. Talk about it with other people, just don’t talk about it with me.

  136. 136.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab:

     

    My hatred for the Catholic Church burns with the white hot intensity of a thousand supernovas, so I would say yes, one can become an Ex Cathlolic. I would put lapsed Catholics in the middle 40%, those who pick and choose their Catholic beliefs. They have left the Church but can’t bring themselves to declare for another faith while still believing in the Holy Trinity. More common still are those who change churches. They would go in the 40% who are Ex Catholics. My Spanish in laws became Baptists at some point in their adult lives. (tho not hard core, I never saw them go to church or read the Bible).

  138. 138.

    low-tech cyclist

    @Elizabelle: Nancy Smash is a genius with her timing. She has always been working hard on this, behind the scenes. She has Trump’s number.

    She got lucky. If the Ukraine business hadn’t come to light, we’d still be waiting for Trump to magically self-impeach.

     

    I’ll give her credit for playing it very well since then, but the Mueller Report was the one big opportunity we *knew* we were going to get, and she muffed that one totally.

  143. 143.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud:

      So does the Church of Janus Karst. I mean, they actually invited me to be a Bishop. I turned them down, said they took it too serious. And they got offended!

  146. 146.

    Chyron HR

    @low-tech cyclist:

     

    Let me guess, you’re one of the “Obama was going to abolish social security at every single one of his SOTU addresses, and the fact that it never happened proves nothing” people?

  148. 148.

    low-tech cyclist

     

     

    @Sab: While you know and I know that God is bigger than any one church or religious group, I know it has to be hard on your husband, whose faith has been almost inextricably bound up with the Catholic Church, to really believe that, even if he intellectually knows it must be so.

     

    The two of you are and will continue to be in my prayers.

  150. 150.

    low-tech cyclist

    @Chyron HR: No, I’m one of those people who’s amused by Ford Prefect telling Arthur Dent what a brilliant plan it was of his, to be picked up by a passing spaceship after the Vogons tossed them out of the airlock.

  151. 151.

    germy

    @Mr. Mack:  It was a coffee mug scraping across a table, apparently.

     

    When Matthews farts, it’s usually the words coming out of his mouth.

  152. 152.

    low-tech cyclist

    @Raven: 

    Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

    Good thing she got a second opportunity and was finally prepared, after being totally and inexplicably unprepared for the opportunity that Robert Mueller teed up for her.

    You just can’t count on getting that second chance. Sometimes opportunity really does knock just once. This time, thank goodness, she was lucky.

    @Chyron HR: 

    No, I’m one of those people who is amused when Ford Prefect tells Arthur Dent what a great plan he had, to get picked up by a passing spaceship after the Vogons threw them out of the airlock.

  153. 153.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Is Trump out of office yet?

    I did laundry today, so that wasn’t exciting. But then I went on a ship-bound tour with the ship’s historian. There are scenes from the Bayeux Tapestry in all the ship’s stairwells, and the historian talked about each scene and what was going on and why it mattered. It was fascinating. Beautiful embroidery and a slanted look at the events of 1066.

    In a little while, Mr DAW will come back from his tour of the engine room and we’ll go to tea. The scones bear no resemblance to the frosted triangles of sawdust sold at Starbuck’s.

  155. 155.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Sab:

     

    I am a believing Christian, and I don’t want him to bail into disbelief. He is teetering there now, and he is not at all comfortable with that.

    The Catholic Church can do that to people, it did it to me.

    My nephew found Catholicism not a good fit for him at a young age. Started exploring other churches. Ended up in the Baptist Church. Your husband should try looking around.

    It took me awhile to embrace my atheism, I didn’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about it. Then one day I realized that’s what I was.

    I recently got into an argument with a fellow atheist who was preaching the virtues of Richard Dawkins. I said RD was just another proselytizing asshole. My friend didn’t understand at all, said RD was just giving me ammo with which to defend my beliefs. I said I felt no need to defend my beliefs, any more than I feel any need to attack anybody else’s. Just don’t anyone try to make me live by somebody else’s religious tenets.

    This life is hard enough to get through. If it helps one sort things out, smooth the rough edges, and give one the peace of mind to allow for sleep, What’s wrong with that?

  157. 157.

    geg6

    @Sab:

    Can you be an ex-Catholic?

     

    Yes, of course you can.  I certainly am.  I don’t consider myself lasped.  I consider myself no fucking Catholic at all and never will be and never want anything at all to do with those assholes.  I really don’t give a damn what they call me, fuck them with their “lapsed” language.  They don’t get to define me.  And neither does anyone else.  Fuck that shit, buying into their garbage.

  158. 158.

    Amir Khalid

    @J R in WV:

    You and everyone else are right. I was trying to think of the centenarian Senator and came up with the wrong name. It was indeed Thurmond and not Byrd.

  161. 161.

    moonbat

    I just have to say that I LOVE the expression on Pelosi’s face in that photo. It says, “You gave me all this rope and now I am going to tie you the most beautiful, elaborate, unbreakable noose that you have ever seen, buddy.”

  162. 162.

    Barbara

    @Sab: My parents were Catholic until they were nothing, though my mother teetered back and forth for a while.  She went to Catholic schools for K-college, where she met my dad.  My father had many bad qualities, but one thing he had was integrity and the courage of his convictions, which caused him to reject the church as soon as it put out Humanae Vitae.  We were told by a few friends that we were all going to hell for not going through the various Catholic rites of passage.  My sister used to get upset and I used to call them idiots — “who made you God?”  People with courage and conviction reach a breaking point.  And the chasm between practice and dogma is so wide now that it has created a culture that is informed by fundamental dishonesty, where people cannot admit what they really believe.  I used to think it would turn around but I don’t think that anymore, not when the default option of the emerging generation is to shrug and leave.

  164. 164.

    Fair Economist

    @germy: I assume Chick-fil-A will just find another channel to donate to hate groups. That’s what religiously run organizations do. Still, it’s good that they at least *say* they are stopping.

  166. 166.

    sherparick

    @OzarkHillbilly: As one of the 40%, I would say it is the comfort of the ritual, particularly the rituals of love and beauty.  Also, I find it soaks up most of my credulity so I am less of a sucker for all the other stories and myths that are constantly being propagated (social media makes the speed of the lies a bit faster, but amount and tenacity of how people hold on to lies that they want to believe was not any better than it was 50 years ago.  As an example, I debated my high school history teacher on his belief that FDR plotted to have the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor.  Yes, he was a rock ribbed Republican so he just had to believe the worse about FDR.

  167. 167.

    Red Cedar

    @Sab: I am so sorry to hear about what the Catholic Church is putting your husband through (and putting you through). Teetering on the edge of disbelief is a hard, hard place to be—and it sounds like it’s as painful for you as it is for him. I too am a rather high-church Episcopalian, and my college-age son describes himself as an atheist. He has every reason to be—the conservative Christian high school his father insisted on sending him to preached some horrible things to him and hurt him terribly—but it’s still sad for me to hear him talk about his atheism. Still—I let him talk to me about it whenever he wants, I invite him to do so actually, because I think atheism born of a rejection of crappy Christianity is NOT disbelief, but a painful searching for where the love of God can actually be found.

     

    It may well be that no matter what it’s too painful for you to listen to your husband’s forays into atheism, and if so then encouraging him to find other listening ears is great—but if it helps you to find the strength to listen to him, then I’d encourage you to hear his leaning into atheism as part of his (difficult, complicated) spiritual journey towards life and love. Being a witness to someone’s journey is a challenging thing. Have you read Parker Palmer on the idea of “holding space” for someone? It might be helpful.

     

    All the best to you both.

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