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You are here: Home / Politics / America / DisOrder & UnDiscipline: An Out of Control E7, an Out of Control Fox & Friends Weekend Loud Mouth, and an Out of Order Chain of Command

DisOrder & UnDiscipline: An Out of Control E7, an Out of Control Fox & Friends Weekend Loud Mouth, and an Out of Order Chain of Command

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The Secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer, has accepted being terminated (no one told me you could ignore that sort of thing, but what do I know…). His resignation letter is below.

At this point it is unclear what actually has transpired with Secretary Spencer’s termination. The initial reporting was that he’d made an end run around Secretary of Defense Esper, which led Secretary Esper to ask the President to fire him. In this recounting of events, Secretary Spencer is accused of going to the President and ensuring him that if the President let the Naval Special Warfare review board convened by Rear Admiral (RADM) Green, commanding admiral of Naval Special Warfare, play out, then Secretary Spencer would ensure that Eddie Gallagher would retire shortly at the rank of E7, as a member of the SEAL community/with his trident, and with his full benefits.

All of this occurred after several days of reporting that Secretary Spencer and RADM Green had made it clear that if the review process regarding Gallagher remaining a SEAL, as well as three officers in his chain of command at the time of the crimes he’s alleged to have committed, was not allowed to play out, then they’d both resign. This was quickly followed by Secretary Spencer stating he’d never made this ultimatum. So if you’re confused, that isn’t surprising. Until the all too predictable leaks occur over the next several days to fill out the narrative, we won’t really know how this all went down.

We do, however, know that a major problem here is that the President is, as usual, not listening to the people he actually hires and/or promotes into the positions to advise him on issues and manage those issues for him. This leaves the President susceptible to influence by those with their own agendas. In this case Gallagher himself, as well as weekend Fox & Friends host Pete Hegseth. Hegseth hosted Gallagher this morning on the Sunday weekend edition of A Blonde with Two Boobs on a Sofa, D/B/A Fox & Friends Weekend. Hegseth honorably served in the US Army National Guard for 11 years, served in Iraq and Afghanistan, earned the rank of major (O4), and has basically been influencing the President’s views on the US military and the VA from both his weekend perch at Fox, in private meetings, and on calls with the President on the President’s unsecured cell phone (Estonia, if you’re listening, and we know you are…) since the President began his campaign. During his appearance with Hegseth this morning, Gallagher publicly went after his chain of command, especially RADM Green, accusing him of being derelict in his duty by trying to suborn the clear orders and guidance of the President, as Commander in Chief of the US military, regarding Gallagher’s case.

I cannot express not only how irregular what I’ve just recounted is, but how BATSHIT FUCKING INSANE it is as well! Serving US military personnel, and to a lesser extent DOD and the Service civilians (civil servants) do not speak to and/or engage with the news media unless it has been approved by the Public Affairs Officer at their command. And they certainly don’t go on a cable news talk show program and publicly accuse their commanding officers of being derelict in their duty and insubordinate. If you were wondering if Gallagher was a disciplinary problem waiting to happen and a real impediment to good order and discipline, wonder no more. What he did this morning should dispel any doubt. And if you were Gallagher and trying to show the review board and the commanding admiral that you weren’t either or both of these things, going on Fox & Friends Weekend and making these statements is a really stupid way to demonstrate that you’re not a problem child and a shitbird.

Even before Gallagher made himself the poster boy for an out of control culture within the SEAL and Naval Special Warfare community, Rear Admiral Green had already begun a commander’s strategic initiative to try to understand the problems that have developed within the Naval Special Warfare community’s culture and develop specific ways and means to address and correct them. His initiative is inline with those of GEN Clarke, the Commanding General of US Special Operations Command, who has instituted a similar strategic review. GEN Clarke, as well as RADM Green and GEN Clarke’s other subordinates at the Army, Air Force, and Marine special operations commands are rightly concerned that the corrosive nature of war, especially a war in it’s 18th year, that is poorly defined at the strategic level, and that is overly reliant on Special Operations at the tactical and operational levels, has done major harm to America’s Special Operations Forces. And the effects of the corrosion that this ongoing war has caused on US Special Operations culture and those within that culture needs to be assessed, analyzed, and understood so that corrective measures can be developed and put in place.

What we’ve seen with the way Gallagher behaves, obviously empowered because he feels that his advocates like Hegseth have the President’s ear and, therefore, the President has his back, is a very public example of the cultural corrosion that GEN Clarke, RADM Green, and their peers in the Special Operations community are concerned with. Just for his actions today, Gallagher should be facing an Article 15 hearing, popularly known as a captain’s or admiral’s mast, first thing tomorrow to answer for his public insubordination. What he did today on Fox & Friends should make whether he keeps his trident the least of his worries.

At this point, however,  I have no idea what is going to happen. RADM Green, GEN Clarke, ADM Gilday the Chief of Naval Operations, GEN Milley the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Secretary Esper, and RADM (ret) Braithwaite, the announced nominee to be the next Secretary of the Navy all know by now they have both a good order and discipline problem and that the public face of that problem’s name is Gallagher, who thinks he’s untouchable. The President’s undue command interference in Gallagher’s trial and the post conviction handling of him as a personnel matter, as well as several other military prosecutions and disciplinary matters all involving accusations of or convictions for war crimes, has created a good order and discipline problem within the ranks. Leadership knows that if they don’t make an example of Gallagher, then any Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine who gets in trouble and can get to Hegseth or anyone else who has the President’s ear, has the ability to short circuit the military justice system. And unless that notion is quickly disabused, then good order and discipline is going to become nothing more than a hollow slogan. And this problem is as dangerous as the message the President’s interference in military justice for Gallagher and others sends both our allies and adversaries about the behavior that will be tolerated by the US military because it will be tolerated by the President of the United States. That makes our allies uncomfortable and provides aid and comfort to our adversaries by giving them seeming approval to conduct war however they like, regardless of the Law of Armed Conflict, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the Rules of Engagement for any specific operation.

Open thread!

Full disclosure: I served as a Senior Special Operations Fellow at SOCOM’s Joint Special Operations University from May through August 2015.

Reader Interactions

154Comments

  4. 4.

    Mike J

    The Secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer, has accepted being terminated (no one told me you could ignore that sort of thing, but what do I know…)

     

    He could have called Norfolk and ordered a destroyer to steam up the Potomac I suppose.  Or, you know, the WH guards are Marines.  I don’t think they would have listened to any order that would have done him any good.

  5. 5.

    hells littlest angel

    I wonder what this does to Trump’s support from active-duty military. And WHY is he popular among the military? Racism? Misogyny? Stupidity?

  7. 7.

    Timurid

    Proof of life from Adam. Whew. I was worried he might have stroked out by now.

     

    In other news, this story is pure nightmare fuel. Any regret I had about missing out on DoD/PME jobs is rapidly being replaced by constant shuddering as the Ohio State marching band walks over my grave…

  8. 8.

    Bobby Thomson

    Destroying military discipline is the goal, not a side effect.  He wants an army that answers to him.

  9. 9.

    Gin & Tonic

    I mentioned this the other day. A friend of my wife’s is a retired USN Captain, whose last active posting was in command of a vessel carrying nuclear weapons. His commentary on the President’s actions shows that he has not forgotten how sailors talk.

  12. 12.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Timurid: DOD/PME jobs are civil service, so it’s not the same as seeking a political appointment from the administration. The real issue with the PME jobs right now, especially at the strategist finishing school to the senior leader college (war colleges) level is how do you teach the Interagency process and the national security strategy and policy development process to officers who are going to go out and work, for at least the next 14 months or so, as career personnel within an administration where the President has destroyed both because it doesn’t care about them, appreciate them, or want them. Do you teach the standard models, so to speak, of how things have been and are supposed to be done and then have a realistic talk about how things are or do you just ignore the latter so you don’t get in trouble with anyone. And if you do ignore the latter, you’re doing your students a disservice.

  15. 15.

    Emerald

    @zhena gogolia:

     

    1. There are more of us than them.

     

    2.President Harris will right all these wrongs. (I have chosen my candidate. I will of course run through fire to vote for whoever is the Dem nominee.

     

    3. Meanwhile, remember that despite appearances, we are fundamentally still strong. We are stronger than Putin, and eventually he will lose.

  17. 17.

    Kent

    Not that it necessarily matters, but what is the actual word on Navy Secretary Spencer.   From wikipedia I gleaned that he was a wall street executive before being nominated by Trump.  Was he thought of as being a legit straight shooter or some kind of MAGA Trumper?   I really don’t know.

     

    My automatic assumption is that anyone appointed by Trump is automatically tainted by association.  I mean, how many good appointments has he made?   Any of them?   A single one?

  20. 20.

    drunkenhausfrau

    Is it wrong for me to hope he is reinstated as an active SEAL and immediately suffers a terrible fatal accident?!  Seriously, you think your fellow SEALS are gonna respect you?!

  24. 24.

    Kent

    @Emerald:3. Meanwhile, remember that despite appearances, we are fundamentally still strong. We are stronger than Putin, and eventually he will lose.

     

    The GDP of Russia is smaller than that of Texas.  Other than gas, oil, diamonds, and grain there is frankly not much that the Russians make that anyone else wants.  When was the last time you bought a Russian car, tool, computer, phone, appliance, software?  Right.   The next Dem president needs to sanction and spank them so hard they never again even contemplate going close to any Western election, much less an American one.  Bankrupt every last one of those oligarchs, seize all their property, and make them wish they never came up with the idea of messing in our elections.  Do to them what we are currently doing to Iran.

  26. 26.

    Cheryl Rofer

    An overall observation: Once again, Trump is doing what he can to muddy the waters. Spencer set up a situation in which he might have resigned on principle, and he repurposed his letter only slightly. The claim that he went around Esper, which may even be true, takes him down. At the same time, Esper capitulates to Trump and doesn’t protect his Secretary of the Navy.

     

    Win-win-win for Trump

    Lose-lose-lose for the country

     

    Keep in mind that this revolves around an insubordinate war criminal. Adam has done a good job of laying that out. Don’t get caught up in the details. Donald Trump wants more war criminals in the military.

  29. 29.

    Timurid

    …and here’s a US Senator regurgitating RIS deza still warm from the teat.

     

    The really scary part is all of the skeptics, clock punchers and simple opportunists on the margins of the GOP suddenly becoming full on MAGA cultists (Senator Kennedy appeared to be pretty moderate for quite a while). Not all of these people are fools, and many of them have extensive real world experience, connections and inside information. Seeing them all, to a man and to a woman, betting on Trump to win it all is beyond horrifying.

  30. 30.

    Doug R

    @drunkenhausfrau:

    Is it wrong for me to hope he is reinstated as an active SEAL and immediately suffers a terrible fatal accident?!  Seriously, you think your fellow SEALS are gonna respect you?! 

    trump’s building a culture that leads to fragging.

  31. 31.

    Sebastian

    As bad as this is but considering Trump’s MO to create random distractions in times of crisis, the firing might very well be a head fake to distract from:

     

    ABCNEWS: House Intelligence Committee in possession of video, audio recordings from Giuliani associate Lev Parnas

     

    The House Intelligence Committee is in possession of audio and video recordings and photographs provided to the committee by Lev Parnas, an associate of President Donald Trump’s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, who reportedly played a key role in assisting him in his efforts to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and Ukraine, multiple sources familiar with the matter tell ABC News.

    The material submitted to the committee includes audio, video and photos that include Giuliani and Trump. It was unclear what the content depicts and the committees only began accessing the material last week.

     

    Lordy, Levdy has tapes! I bet he was recording Trump and Rudy. Way to kick off Infrastructure Week!

  32. 32.

    dmsilev

    @drunkenhausfrau: I’m kind of hoping that he’s restored to “active” duty, which is to say he’s immediately assigned to making sure the inventory counts of left-handed metric setscrews are up to date.

  34. 34.

    Mary G

    That letter is fire.

     

    “I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, flag, and faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

     

    That sounds like the closest I’ve ever seen a federal employee come to “the president is a crook.”

  35. 35.

    ThresherK

    “A Blonde with Two Boobs on a Sofa”?

     

    I am aware of all internet traditions and I should know who coined this. Is that Charlie Pierce’s term?

  36. 36.

    Dan B

    A muslim friend is horrified by Gallager.  She describes his target practice on a schoolgirl, an elderly man, knifing a teenage boy who was being treated for wounds, and setting up a machine gun on a bridge to shoot at random into neighborhoods.  Members of his team sabotaged his guns.  How do his teammates deal with his presidential pardon?

     

    How do any Seals deal with this blight on their honor?

     

    This feels like My Lai, a horror that resulted in Vietnam Vets being spat upon.  Does Putin have a mole at FOX?

  37. 37.

    Kattails

    @Adam L Silverman: When her kids got old enough, an artist friend of mine instructed them that she was not to be disturbed in her studio unless the issue involved blood or flames. :)

  43. 43.

    piratedan

    makes me think that the likelihood of Gallagher getting caught in “friendly fire” just went up exponentially.  What these guys don’t appear to understand that 2nd amendment remedies can apply to anyone with a gun and if the law is no longer in play, or only in play for those who feel that the system is there for them to abuse…. those people who feel that the system has has failed them… well… all those fantasies we saw of the right acting out can also be applied to those who have grown weary of the system being gamed and take “justice” into their own hands…  I do NOT want to see this, but I’m getting more and more shocked each day that passes that someone hasn’t reached the end of their tether and decides to go “fuck it”.

  45. 45.

    Ruckus

    @drunkenhausfrau:

    Unless trump interferes more, which would of course make the situation worse, I’d bet the navy finds a rather uncomfortable place for the shitbird E7. One where it is rather difficult to talk to anyone outside of base and with lots of not so appreciative fellow service personnel. It might not go well for him.

  46. 46.

    Raven

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam

    by Jerry Lembke

    One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester — often a woman — spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.

    In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier’s welfare were the anti-war activists.

  47. 47.

    dmsilev

    @Ruckus: “Congratulations, Sergeant Gallagher. As part of your SEAL duties, you are being deployed to herd seals at McMurdo Sound for the next five years.”

  51. 51.

    Jay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

     

    deploy him to a combat zone, just not with a team, air support, or a functioning weapon. Basically air drop his ass into a place where the locals will take care of the issue.

  53. 53.

    Kattails

    Cole linked to Col. Morris Davis’ Twitter thread this morning, it was a very interesting insight from a perspective that’s a completely alien/blank space to me. From that thread I took a look at what Vote Vets were saying. The Republican party has fallen. I deeply hope the military is able to follow the lead of the patriots who have remained true to their oaths in the hearings.

  54. 54.

    James E Powell

    @hells littlest angel:

     

    I can’t figure it out. I have retired service personnel in my extended family. They are completely committed to the notion that Democrats are anti-military. There is nothing anyone can say or do that will change that.

  56. 56.

    Bill Arnold

    @Timurid:
    That deserves a full twitter embed.

    Fox & Friends preview an interview with Rick Perry, where he says that Trump is “the chosen one” and “sent by God to do great things”
    Pete Hegseth: “God has used imperfect people forever,” but what Trump “has withstood is unlike what really any other mortal could understand” pic.twitter.com/ITDAErMJiN

    — courtney hagle (@CourtneyHagle) November 24, 2019

    I am smiling big. (Reasons. Yes, this is … dangerous.)

  58. 58.

    Ruckus

    @dmsilev:

    It’s E7 Gallagher.

    Not sergeant in any case and not Chief or chief, he gets no respect so only the pay rate, he lost all right to the grade.

    He could also go to Gitmo. I’ve been there in the summer, it’s fucking lovely.

  59. 59.

    Dan B

    @Raven:  Good to know. I was in a group that counseled Ft. Lewis, Madigan, Mc Chord. The military did terrible things to the GI’s. There were awful GI’s but most were just young guys who were being manipulated by the military and war mongering politicians.

  60. 60.

    Jay

    So the official story is Navy Secretary Spencer was fired for secretly promising Trump to do exactly what Trump wanted? Does that make any sense at all?— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) November 25, 2019

  61. 61.

    Leto

    @Ruckus: GITMO is too nice. He can do foot patrols in the missile fields of Minot from September to May. They have shacks up top, he never has to go into the command modules.

  62. 62.

    Raven

    @Dan B: I was at Lewis for about 8 months between Korea and Vietnam. The measured our hair and if it was more than 1/2 inch you couldn’t get a pass. We’d take the bus to Seattle, score and go back to the fort!

  64. 64.

    Sebastian

    @John Revolta:

     

    The House Intelligence Committee is allegedly already in possession of the tapes. This is going to be so awesome haha

     

    Tick Tock Motherfuckers!

  65. 65.

    Amir Khalid

    @Jay:

    I think that what you suggest is effectively a fragging instigated by his superiors. This would be problematic because

    • There would be many people involved
    • There would thus also be a paper trail
    • It would technically violate the UCMJ, which to my knowledge frowns upon internecine murder
  68. 68.

    tobie

    @Dan B: Everything does lead back to Putin, it seems. I gather that the administration is withholding approved aid to the Lebanese military, which only strengthens the hand of Iran and Syria and by extension Russia in the region.

  69. 69.

    ThresherK

    The Winnipeg Blue Bombers have won the Grey Cup for the first time in a long time. ETA: Since 1990! Almost by chance it should not be that long an interval.

     

    They really locked things down today, beating the Tabbies by three touchdowns.

  70. 70.

    Butter Emails

    It’s amazing how many people regrow spines and find their missing integrity in the back of a sock drawer immediately after Trump has someone toss them under the bus.

  71. 71.

    Bill Arnold

    @zhena gogolia:

    So somebody give me some reason for hope. I am in despair.

    How about this?

    Trump’s work from the residence excuse is exactly what was expected at this point in his dementia downslide. He’s hiding his mobility & balance issues. He can lay down, watch TV & come out for short drug tuned appearances in his body brace. It’s short termhttps://t.co/dJ79I3JLz4 https://t.co/1BbozGkPqk
    — Tom Joseph (@TomJChicago) November 24, 2019

    (IMO, parts of his brain are being burnt out, and i partly agree with the author of the tweet and his thread he links. Have a few more papers to read on the subject though, and some evidence would be more convincing.)

  72. 72.

    Amir Khalid

    @Raven:

    I do understand that fragging is fragging, i.e. murder. Surely issuing an order to someone to get them killed, rather than to fulfil a military objective, is murder.

  73. 73.

    Dan B

    @Raven: The “bad” GI’s used to go to The Sandbox, the off limits gay bar looking to beat up fags.  They were beaten up by the drag queens.  The MP’s would haul off the mortified, and bruised, GI’s.  The drag shows picked up where they had left off.

     

    The military chained up twelve GI’s who were going for CO status and shipped them off to Vietnam.  Most of the offences the brass pulled were promising non combat positions or higher rank to the guys who volunteered.

  74. 74.

    Ruckus

    @Leto:

    There are plenty of nice out of the way places that he can be assigned to for infinity – and beyond.

    As a service to the nation vets should get lists together and compare shittyness of them and them make a short list of possibilities. Bet there are some ships that a naval E7 might just not enjoy. Not many of those that I know left afloat.

    Another possibility is that he could be sent for a short time to all of them.

  77. 77.

    Dan B

    @tobie:  All roads lead to Rome Putin.  I’m not at all sure that there is a plant at FOX since it hardly needs encouragement to be disruptive but one doesn’t know these days.

  79. 79.

    Anya

    I am not clear what was the Secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer trying to do? Was he trying to manage a man-child CiC or was he being rogue?

    can this fucking administration take one day off from criming and scandal. All I want to do is watch the Crown one damn Sunday without this drama.

  80. 80.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:

    I know people who had to give orders to others to run into live machine gun fire and knew that they would be dead in moments – at best and die a slow agonizing death at worst. They weren’t unarmed but were very much underarmed and the people I know knew this, as did command.

    Command doesn’t always have the lives of those in the lower levels as it’s foremost goal or concern.

  86. 86.

    Amir Khalid

    @Ruckus:

    Presumably there was some military objective involved, however futile. But that wouldn’t be quite comparable to murder for the sheer hell of it, which seems to have been Gallagher’s motive for these killings.

  89. 89.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Amir Khalid: There isn’t going to be any fragging. He’s going to retire in short order. Once that happens he’ll have a contributor gig on Fox and most likely run for office. And this will all feature into his schtick going forward.

  94. 94.

    sgrAstar

    Adam, thanks for the illuminating and informative comment. I’ve been following the unfolding Eddie Gallagher debacle pretty obsessively, because we have a family member in the SEAL pipeline. To say our family is appalled is the understatement of the century. GRRR…

    ?

  95. 95.

    JaySinWA

    @Butter Emails: It appears that he has been there (murder and assault) and not done that (gone to prison). I fear Adam is correct, and you may be correct in that he will offend again, but it may not be enough to send him to prison.

  96. 96.

    Kent

    @ThresherK:

    The Winnipeg Blue Bombers have won the Grey Cup for the first time in a long time. ETA: Since 1990! Almost by chance it should not be that long an interval.

     

    They really locked things down today, beating the Tabbies by three touchdowns.

     

    So you obviously follow Canadian football. Just curious why some Canadian team hasn’t snatched up Kapernick.  Has there been that discussion?  Is he not interested in playing in Canada?  I have absolutely no idea but it occurs to me that the NFL isn’t the only place to play.  I’d think the Canadian game would be well suited to his talents.

  97. 97.

    Kay

    The rise and catastrophic downfall of WeWork founder and former CEO Adam Neumann has been chronicled in gleeful detail across the international financial press in the wake of his company’s ill-fated attempt at a public offering — which resulted in disastrous revelations about the company’s mismanagement, its devaluation and, ultimately, Neumann’s resignation.
    Neumann, according to the Vanity Fair article, believed that WeWork “was even capable of solving the world’s thorniest problems. Last summer, some WeWork executives were shocked to discover Neumann was working on Jared Kushner’s Mideast peace effort. According to two sources, Neumann assigned WeWork’s director of development, Roni Bahar, to hire an advertising firm to produce a slick video for Kushner that would showcase what an economically transformed West Bank and Gaza would look like.”
    Kushner, he added, “showed a version of the video during his speech at the White House’s peace conference in Bahrain last summer.”
    Finally, an anecdote that connected Neumann both to Kushner and the Saudi prince involved a claim by Neumann that three people were going to save the world: Crown Prince Mohammed, Jared Kushner and Neumann himself.

  99. 99.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:

    Absolutely there was an objective. Which was always abandoned almost as soon as it was over come. Kind of like us running into the wrong nation in 2003 without actually having any idea what we were doing and how that might play out, which of course it still is.

    The US seems to make a lot of decisions about the world and our place in it by thinking that the world revolves around us. It may have 70 yrs ago, it no longer does. It takes a lot more for a nation to grow up than a single person. But to remain a child and elect a very dangerous child to run this large of a very dangerous nursery is not worthy of what this country should and can be. And while many would not put it in those terms, many of us know that things can not carry on the way that they are, the world is too dangerous, this country is too dangerous and too many of our citizens do not want to be part of the world, they think they are the world.

  101. 101.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: I emailed this to a now retired colonel/friend I worked with on the DOD side of the 2014 Israeli-Palestinian peace initiative. My smartassed comment was: “Why didn’t we think of this? It was sooooo obvious a solution to the problem!”

  102. 102.

    JaySinWA

    @JaySinWA: note that my 4 minute edit window did not show up.

    Just to highlight “appears” I know he was acquitted, but appearances are still appearances. In any case his behavior was appalling.

  103. 103.

    tobie

    @Dan B: You’re right. It hardly matters if there is a mole. FOX has fostered a form of tribalism among Republicans that basically leads them to accept anything if it’s good for their team. This is beyond depressing.

  104. 104.

    ThresherK

    @Kent: I’m in Connecticut, so I only root from afar.

     

    Kap would certainly have a lot of fun in the Canadian game. I don’t know if his reasonable salary is affordable for a CFL team, and if he were to go there and really shine, would a CFL team run the risk of losing him after a season or less?

     

    I have no idea if there’s been that discussion. Montreal would probably like to get the taste of Johnny Manziel out of their mouths.

  106. 106.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Butter Emails: I mean here in the US once he’s retired and a civilian. At this point, because of what the President has done, as well as how the NCIS investigators and the original prosecutor mishandled the case, there’s no way to get justice for those girls. And that sucks. But this guy is a walking train wreck. And he’s going to be a walking train wreck as a civilian. And that walking train wreck will eventually wreck. The only outstanding issue at that point is how much damage is caused.

  109. 109.

    Gvg

    @Omnes Omnibus: well I believe my Uncle and Aunt that a bank teller once called him a baby killer. But he says it was one time. What you have to remember is there were already millions of Americans then and of course some of them behaved badly. It just wasn’t all the time or lots. Things like that get retold however. And people were pretty angry on all sides.

  110. 110.

    Kay

    WeWork said on Thursday that it was laying off 2,400 employees around the world, weeks after huge losses at the co-working company brought it close to financial collapse.
    The layoffs are equivalent to nearly 20 percent of the 12,500 employees WeWork said it had at the end of June. The company is also expected to shed another 1,000 employees as it closes or sells divisions that are not part of its core business of subletting office space. Additionally, roughly 1,000 building maintenance employees will be transferred to outside contractors.

    The company “said” it had 12,500 employees. Odds are that was a made-up number too.

    It’s the perfect company to partner with Jared Kushner. Good fit.

  111. 111.

    Another Scott

    NavyTimes:

    […]

    According to Hoffman, Esper and Army Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke with Trump on Friday about what had become a pivotal moment in the history of traditional civil-military relations.

    The president had tweeted he would shield Special Warfare Operator Chief Edward “Eddie” Gallagher from what was widely perceived to be a punitive Trident Review Board set up by Rear Adm. Collin Green, the commander of Naval Special Warfare.

    At issue was whether Green’s chosen panel could strip Gallagher of his coveted SEAL trident nearly five months after he was convicted of posing in a photograph near a dead Islamic State prisoner of war.

    Trump had intervened multiple times in Gallagher’s case, including restoring his chief’s anchors after he had been demoted to petty officer first class following his conviction.

    Hoffman disclosed Sunday that Spencer was saying one thing in public about supporting Green’s pitch to let the process play out — a policy favored by Esper — but in reality he’d previously proposed to Trump to restore Gallagher’s pay grade and allow him to retire with his trident pin.

    “When recently asked by Secretary Esper, Secretary Spencer confirmed that despite multiple conversations on the Gallagher matter, Secretary Esper was never informed by Secretary Spencer of his private proposal,” Hoffman said.

    After all the drama of the past week, Esper now has decided to let Gallagher keep his trident.

    He’ll meet with Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday and Navy Under Secretary Thomas Modly — now the acting secretary — to figure out how to move forward.

    “I am deeply troubled by this conduct shown by a senior DOD official.” said Secretary Esper in the statement. “Unfortunately, as a result I have determined that Secretary Spencer no longer has my confidence to continue in his position. I wish Richard well.”

    It’s unclear if Esper will halt similar proceedings against three officers tied to the Gallagher case.

    Spencer’s spokesperson, Cmdr. Sarah Higgins, told Navy Times that Spencer would not be making a statement at this time on the latest revelations.

    However, a letter of resignation dated Sunday and purported to have been signed by Spencer and distributed by CNN and other outlets tells a different story than the one pushed by the Pentagon.

    Calling the need to preserve good order and discipline a “deadly serious business,” the letter indicates that Spencer had come to believe Trump didn’t share his perspective.

    “I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States,” the letter states.

    Only moments after the release of Spencer’s resignation letter, however, Trump took to Twitter to give another version of the Sunday meltdown.

    Noting his displeasure with the Navy’s handling of the Gallagher affair, Trump added his concerns about Spencer’s failure to address cost overruns and contracting problems from the former administration and then said that’s why Esper “terminated” his employment.

    He thanked Spencer for his service and commitment but promised Gallagher “will retire peacefully with all of the honors that he has earned.”

    The president added that he would nominate Braithwaite as the next Navy secretary.

    “A man of great achievement and success, I know Ken will do an outstanding job!” Trump tweeted.

    [ Tweet ]

    Plot twist: What none of the parties knew was that minutes before the Pentagon announced Esper’s decision, Gallagher told his attorney, Timothy Parlatore, that he had decided to voluntarily relinquish his trident for the good of the SEALs, the president and the country, believing that he unwittingly had become a lightning rod for criticism and partisan division.

    Shortly after Gallagher told Parlatore to write the letter, his attorney received word that Esper had decided to let him retain the pin.

    In fact, Navy Times had to scrap a story about the letter when the Pentagon statement arrived.

    “This isn’t a twist any of us saw coming,” Parlatore told Navy Times. “From the beginning, my primary responsibility was to save Eddie Gallagher’s life, then to save his reputation, but Eddie Gallagher loves the Navy and he loves the SEAL teams. He’s been falsely accused of attacking the institution, but it’s an institution we both love and want to improve.

    “With this personnel change, this institution will improve and no one will go through the ordeal Eddie went through. At the end of the day, the most important duty any of us have is protecting America.”

    […]

    There are about 15 different versions of the story out there, if this is anything to go by… (grouch-roll-eyes.gif)

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  113. 113.

    Another Scott

    @ThresherK: I think Anne Laurie said that she’ll be updating it once things settle down a little.  Who knows when that will be, given the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue though!

     

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  114. 114.

    Adam L Silverman

    This pretty much sums up where I’m at with this story:

  115. 115.

    Adam L Silverman

    Ruh Roh!

  116. 116.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Baud:

    At least we saved the military from President Hillary.

    THANK. FUCK. FOR. THAT!

    I hope Susan’s over the moon about her revolution.

  117. 117.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

     

    I wonder if all that’s come out over the weekend is why Giuliani was freaking out the last two days.

     

    I was hoping it meant he was going to be indicted, but this is good too.

  120. 120.

    Butter Emails

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Sorry. I was commenting while distracted and was overly brief in my responses as a result. I agree that he’s a walking disaster. It’s sickening that he will eventually pay the price for his actions, but that the cost is probably going to be in the form of more innocent people being hurt.

  122. 122.

    Bill Arnold

    @Kay:

    Finally, an anecdote that connected Neumann both to Kushner and the Saudi prince involved a claim by Neumann that three people were going to save the world: Crown Prince Mohammed, Jared Kushner and Neumann himself.

    Quoted again because it makes me laugh. (Several layers of reasons, but the surface glee at Neumann’s failures is good.)

  123. 123.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:

    I didn’t really answer your post.

    My rough take is that Gallagher is a high functioning sociopath. That would explain the murders and shitty behavior.

    Some would like to return the favor.

    My take is that no matter what happens, this man is dangerous, as in very dangerous to others, especially those he doesn’t agree with and he’s already murdered innocent people. What can be done with him now that the Stupid in Chief has pardoned him? Let him run free? In the land of guns? The man knows how to kill in far too many ways and has shown he’s very willing to do just that. He’s a product of some crap in his brain telling him it’s OK to kill for all the wrong reasons and of the military who have taught him the skills. I’d bet money the murders he committed while in the military will not be the last, considering the crap in his brain.

    Who and how is that fixed?

  124. 124.

    Ruckus

    @Another Scott:

    With all the stories rattling around it’s difficult to say who is responsible and what they actually want to say. Everyone seems to be trying to make the best of it depending on their point of view and that’s probably going to mean that the truth is somewhere in there but few will probably ever know it.

  125. 125.

    Debbie(Aussie)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Adam is it possible/probable that this person gets a dishonourable discharge and loses his benefits? The fact that he has received a pardon from the president, is a recognition of guilt, is it not? Shouldn’t he be referred to as a convicted murder from now until eternity?

    Las, but by no means least: what the fuck with Michael Bloomberg, officially entering the race. Not enough rich white men over 75 running this time? Hells bell and cockle shells!

    edired cause I can’t spell ?

  129. 129.

    Debbie(Aussie)

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks Adam. Really appreciate your perspective and your depth of knowledge on these issues. It’s wonderful what one learns at this one stop college for the many and convoluted areas of politics as well as the wonder of pets, food and gardening. I love this place, the professors/lecturers and my fellow students.

  132. 132.

    Shalimar

    @Bill Arnold: The funniest part is that Kushner is basically pitching the equivalent of a stadium development project to a local city, with surrounding commercial and residential development.  Huge increase in revenue to the city, will pay for itself, etc., etc.  Except it always turns out to be lying bullshit.  And in this case, Kushner isn’t just promising profits, he will also throw in world peace.

  138. 138.

    debbie

    So Trump doesn’t like heroes who have been captured. He likes heroes who are war criminals. Good to know.

  142. 142.

    Jay

    @ThresherK:

     

    the Aluettes reached out, and have continued to reach out since 2017, even bringing up Jackie Robinson and the Royals,

     

    no response back.

     

    Cap going to the CFL would effect his suits against the NFL, at a minimum, the damages.

  143. 143.

    Ruckus

    @debbie:

    As Adam said, he’ll never see a combat zone again.

    And if he’s allowed to retire then that will happen sooner than later.

    And if he doesn’t retire they will put him someplace where he’d have a hell of a time doing much damage. A military base is a relatively safe place. Guns are locked up, there are armed guards and so on to keep out the riffraff and you and your car can be searched every time you enter and leave.

    My guess is that he will behave himself for a while, in reality he’s not going to be well liked anywhere he goes on a military installation after all of this.

    And there is probably more to the story than most of us will ever know.

  144. 144.

    Kattails

    @dww44: Oh just wandered back before bed, refreshed the thread, and saw this; it was in the sidebar (here) of Cole’s Twitter feed. Maybe someone else noted it further down, I’m toast, off to sleep.

  145. 145.

    Nomad

    @Another Scott: If Gallagher “loves the Navy” as his attorney claims, why did he go onto Faux and Friends and badmouth everyone he could think of in the service? He deserves a dishonorable discharge just for that public rant IMO.

  146. 146.

    TerryC

    @Omnes Omnibus: “@Dan B: Any citation for Vietnam vets being spat upon?”

     

    I spent my last year and a half in the Navy (1970-71) at a facility that was part civilian and part military, DSRPD, and attended classes at American University in Washington DC, sometimes in uniform. Neither then, nor after I returned to my home area, did anyone harass me or call me names or spit at me. Instead I was welcomed and even have a collection of greeting cards that were sent to me upon the completion of my investment.

  147. 147.

    RAM

    Seems to me what Trump can undo he can do. In other words, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to me that Trump couldn’t award his sons SEAL tridents just for giggles. Who or what’s to stop him?

  148. 148.

    Art

    Bobby Thomson@ #8 has a line on the core of the issue:

    “Destroying military discipline is the goal, not a side effect. He wants an army that answers to him.”

     

    It is all about Trump. Loyalty to him, patronage, Trump’s methodology is to make people, entire communities, suffer and become useless as assets to the nation interest as a show of loyalty and demonstration of their enthusiast desire to do his will and flatter his ego.

     

    Trump is going to march the military into the sea to flatter himself. He has decimated the diplomatic corp and is going to do the same to the military. As is typical for a mafia don Trump finds the weakest and most flawed in an organization and, playing on their weakness, he makes them the model for the rest. Bigots are put in charge civil rights; polluters in charge of the EPA.

     

    As a well known physical and moral coward Trump is taking great satisfaction in seeing men and women of integrity and courage debase themselves. Principles, integrity, professionalism, and morality are all impediments to anyone being the perfect tool for Trump. What he wants is brain-dead, blind, loyalty. A willingness to do the unspeakable when ordered and to lay down and die to protect him. The good of the nation has nothing to do with it.

     

    It has always been about Trump, the empty hole in his heart, and his need to prove his worth it by sacrificing everything and everyone of value and integrity to his insatiable need for flattery. Gallagher is the Judas goat leading the warriors to the altar for the sacrifice.

  151. 151.

    Warblewarble

    The subservience of senior military to the traitor in chief has consequences. Americans serving their country are disregarded and put at risk. There will be blowback to the Gallagher photos,the next photos will feature Americans as the victims. If you wish to honor the troops ,rolling over for tRUMP is not the way to do it.

  153. 153.

    Another Scott

    For completeness, nycsouthpaw makes a good point to keep in mind:

    The thing is the case against Gallagher is based on other SEALs turning him in. The witnesses against him were SEALs, who protect us and who had the courage and integrity to stand up and say what Gallagher did in our name was wrong. https://t.co/mBLxXRakaL— southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) November 25, 2019

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  154. 154.

    emjayay

    @hells littlest angel: Yes. Also Trump claimed our incredibly lavishly funded and huge military was some kind of disaster and need tons more money and Congress passed it plus a huge tax cut for the wealthy and corporations resulting in a huge deficit during the peak of the business cycle. Fortunately deficits are only a huge problem during Democratic administrations and no big deal during Republican ones.

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