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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Russiagate Open Thread: Twelve Monkeys Spies

Russiagate Open Thread: Twelve Monkeys Spies

by Anne Laurie|  November 25, 201911:30 am| 111 Comments

This post is in: Election 2016, Impeachment Inquiry, Open Threads, Republican Venality, Russia, Ever Get The Feeling You've Been Cheated?, Just Shut the Fuck Up, Our Failed Media Experiment

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Twelve Russian military officers have been indicted for breaking into the Democratic Party's computers, stealing compromising information and selectively releasing it to undermine candidates https://t.co/I8toBG9Vcf

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) November 25, 2019

There was a lot of testimony during this past week’s impeachment inquiry about foreign interference in our 2016 election, including the president’s assertion that Ukraine was involved. But the president’s own intelligence agencies say it was the Russians who “hacked” the 2016 elections. Special counsel Robert Mueller spelled it out in his report.

Now the Justice Department has at least two open cases against Russian citizens for interfering with our presidential and congressional races, we decided to take a closer look at one of them – the case against 12 Russian military officers accused of breaking into the Democratic Party’s computers, stealing compromising information, and selectively releasing it to undermine Democratic candidates. There’s no evidence of similar operations against Republicans in 2016. With the 2020 election approaching, the story of “The Russian Hack.”

Robert Anderson: The Russians never left. I can guarantee you in 2016 after this all hit the news, they never left. They didn’t stop doing what they’re doing.

Bill Whitaker: This wasn’t just a one-time thing?

Robert Anderson: No way. Russia doesn’t do it that way.

Robert Anderson should know. He spent 21 years inside the cloak and dagger world of spies and hackers overseeing the FBI’s counterintelligence and cyber Divisions and tracking Moscow’s spy agencies, an alphabet of artifice, the FSB, SVR, and, especially, the GRU.

Robert Anderson: The GRU is military intelligence. So when we look at the attacks that happened during our presidential races in 2016 you had military organizations inside of Russia attacking our infrastructure…

These are the hacker-soldiers from GRU unit 26165 who, according to the Justice Department, were responsible for “breaking and entering” into the Democratic Party’s computers remotely, from Moscow. Their names, ranks and faces are now on the FBI’s most wanted list for stealing, among other things, the Democrats’ strategic plans, detailed targeting data, and internal polling. GRU Colonel Aleksandr Osadchuk commanded a separate unit, 74455. One of his officers was in charge of spreading the stolen material to political operatives, bloggers and the media. Another hacked state election boards.

Bill Whitaker: It wasn’t some 400-pound guy in his parent’s basement?

Robert Anderson: No. This was a well-choreographed military operation with units that not only were set up specifically to hack in to obtain information, but other units that were used for psychological warfare were weaponizing that. This is not an operation that was just put together haphazardly…

Bill Whitaker: Do you ever expect to get the 12 Russian officials to trial?

John Demers: I would be surprised. But the purpose of the indictment isn’t just that, although that’s certainly one of the purposes. The purpose of this kind of indictment is even to educate the public.

For a legal document, the 29-page indictment is a page-turner. It details how U.S. intelligence agencies tracked each defendant’s actions, sometimes by the keystroke, revealing the fictitious names and phony emails used to infiltrate the Democrats’ computers, and tracing the stolen data on its circuitous route from Washington, D.C. to Moscow…

Much more, including video clips, at the link.

Trump's obsession with the Crowdstrike fever dream has the effect of directly undercutting the open federal case, brought by Trump's own justice department, against these 12 Russian spies, all of whom are considered fugitives. https://t.co/d3ofdkiRAB

— Zeddy (@Zeddary) November 25, 2019

Journalist defends reporting that used Russian-hacked documents https://t.co/Rng7cnxZFj

— 60 Minutes (@60Minutes) November 25, 2019


Star turn for Politico comer!

Marc Caputo: This is a state where elections are decided by a percentage point or so. A coin toss. Add the Russians onto that and you’re looking at a real problem.

Marc Caputo has covered Florida politics for 20 years. The senior writer for Politico was one of the reporters who received and wrote about the hacked documents.

Bill Whitaker: Not a lot of people know that the Russians interfered in five congressional races here in Florida. When did you first get wind of it?

Marc Caputo: Well, I’d been paying attention, like the rest of the press corps, that Russia had been hacking and Russia had been trying to interfere in our election system. And then out of the blue I got contacted by this blogger, Hello Florida…

Bill Whitaker: You played a role in disseminating this stolen information.

Marc Caputo: I have a role to play as a reporter covering campaigns. And sometimes that information comes to us from a variety of sources. And in this case, it came to us from a source right at the edge of being unusable. But ultimately we decided, “Well, this tells a legitimate story about how these campaigns view their own candidates.” And voters have a right to that information.

Robert Anderson: This operation was a huge success…

Reporters ask their subjects to own their mistakes all the timeI’m glad they hold the powerful accountable for their errors.But there probably would be a lot less cynicism towards the press in our country if they, as a group and individuals, turned their scrutinizing gaze inward https://t.co/p69CFAsaDE

— Neera Tanden (@neeratanden) November 25, 2019

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Reader Interactions

111Comments

  1. 1.

    laura

    November 25, 2019 at 11:42 am

    Whither I.F. Stone?

  2. 2.

    different-church-lady

    November 25, 2019 at 11:44 am

    The purpose of this kind of indictment is even to educate the public.

    Sayng there’s anyone left who wants to be educated.

  3. 3.

    catclub

    November 25, 2019 at 11:49 am

    Well if it is an open thread: A big robbery – of things nobody ever gets to see.

    How can you tell they are even gone?

    “”The Grüne Gewölbe alone consists of 10 rooms teeming with about 3,000 items of jewellery and other recognised masterpieces,” the Guardian reports. “Treasures in the museum include a 63.8-centimetre figure of a Moor studded with emeralds and a 547.71-carat sapphire.””

     

    I have not much use for ‘treasures’ that are virtually never displayed. It seems pointless

  4. 4.

    Baud

    November 25, 2019 at 12:06 pm

    No one is accountable because everyone is responsible.

  5. 5.

    FelonyGovt

    November 25, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    This is why I worry about the incessant trashing of various Democratic candidates on Twitter. I certainly don’t love all of our candidates, but I’m sure some of the noise emanates from Russian and other trolls.

  6. 6.

    Jeffro

    November 25, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    “hacked state election boards”, you say?

     

    Why…that’s the kind of thing you’d think a responsible federal government would be looking into, publicizing what is found, and taking steps to ensure that it can never happen again.

     

    To say nothing of sanctioning the hostile foreign power that did it to us.

    (And maybe inflicting a little payback, to boot…)

     

    Also, Santa, I would like a pony for Christmas…

  7. 7.

    waspuppet

    November 25, 2019 at 12:16 pm

    I don’t actually have a problem with reporters using Russian-hacked information. What I have a problem with, and I’m not the first to say this, is when reporters (and they deny they do this, but it’s obvious they do) think to themselves “IT’S FROM HACKED EMAILZZZ IT’S OBVIOUSLY REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT. LEON PANETTA’S RISOTTO RECIPE A1 ABOVE THE FOLD.”

     

    Many have pointed out that if Trump’s Ukraine shakedown were revealed by leaked/hacked emails from Ukraine, it would have been on A1 for months. But Rudy told everyone he was doing this back in April and May and it was a one-day story and back to the Pennsylvania diners.

  8. 8.

    Warblewarble

    November 25, 2019 at 12:17 pm

    tRUMP at the White House with Kiyslak a Lavrov is the picture that should hang in all offices and embassies.

  9. 9.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 25, 2019 at 12:19 pm

    A good piece by Serhiy Leshchenko (in English) about the Manafort “black ledger” story.

  10. 10.

    Jeffro

    November 25, 2019 at 12:21 pm

    @waspuppet: back to the Pennsylvania diners.

     

    I’m sure you meant to say, back to real Americans…

  11. 11.

    Chris T.

    November 25, 2019 at 12:24 pm

    @waspuppet: It is a problem, but note that reporters don’t determine where their stores are placed.

  12. 12.

    sukabi

    November 25, 2019 at 12:26 pm

    @Warblewarble: along with the transcript of drumpf outing a classified Israeli operative / operation.

  13. 13.

    Martin

    November 25, 2019 at 12:29 pm

    [Lindsay Graham: performs a suspiciously fabulous wave of the hand, and with a defiant Scarlett O’Hara accent]

    These are not the Ukrainians you’re looking for…

    [Lindsay Graham: trundles off to his office taking no questions, somehow looking smaller with each step]

  14. 14.

    lollipopguild

    November 25, 2019 at 12:34 pm

    Those people in the Ukraine are so smart contracting out the work to the Russians so that we would blame the Russians instead of anyone in the Ukraine.

  15. 15.

    Martin

    November 25, 2019 at 12:35 pm

    @waspuppet: I don’t actually have a problem with reporters using Russian-hacked information.

    Part of journalism should be questioning the source material. The NYT constantly allows itself to get rolled by Judith Miller reporting that are misinformation campaigns. Using hacked documents as a lead, but not part of the reporting is fine provided you have independent sources for what you report. It’s akin to how you treat whistleblowers – they aren’t the evidence, they’re the signal that you should start collecting evidence, because the motives of a whistleblower are unknown.

  16. 16.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 25, 2019 at 12:37 pm

    @Martin: are you referring to that clip of LG running away from the vet? He looks a lot older than 64. He has the same posture as my mother, who’s 84 and has bad bones

  17. 17.

    PJ

    November 25, 2019 at 12:38 pm

    @catclub:If you read the article, it states that the stolen works were in the historical section of the museum, where they are available for viewing by reservation.

     

    Most museums do not have the space or manpower to display anything but a fraction of their collection, so they have to rotate works in exhibition.  The alternative to museums is to disperse the works to private collections, which means they will only ever be seen by a small group of people.

  18. 18.

    waspuppet

    November 25, 2019 at 12:40 pm

    @Chris T.: Oh I know. That’s just me using shorthand for the question of whether something is a story at all, or whether you just think it would be cool to write “according to documents acquired by (publication here).”*

     

    Although, while reporters don’t decide whether their stories go on A1, they do pitch their editors on the idea.

     

    *Just like there is barely a reporter alive who won’t move heaven and earth to use the dateline “ABOARD THE USS (whatever)” or “SOMEWHERE IN THE (name of ocean)” or “SOMEWHERE ABOVE (name of any ocean or continent)”

  19. 19.

    Martin

    November 25, 2019 at 12:40 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep. I swear Graham was only 4′ tall when he got to his office door.

  20. 20.

    patrick II

    November 25, 2019 at 12:42 pm

    @waspuppet:

     

    How do you know that a Russian hacked email hasn’t been modified before being sent to Wikileaks? Some certainly were.  A Russian source is not trustworthy, which is among the reasons you don’t use them.  Another reason would be to not encourge them to do it again.

  21. 21.

    different-church-lady

    November 25, 2019 at 12:46 pm

    @waspuppet: i gotta believe the Russians knew quite well that American news organizations were making themselves completely subservient to anything that trends on Twitter. If they could bot social media, they knew it would be amplified in mainstream news and a feedback loop would build.

     

    Once again all they had to do was leverage a dysfunction that was already in place.

  22. 22.

    Doug R

    November 25, 2019 at 12:46 pm

    @FelonyGovt:

    This is why I worry about the incessant trashing of various Democratic candidates on Twitter. I certainly don’t love all of our candidates, but I’m sure some MOST of the noise emanates from Russian and other trolls.

     
    FIFY

  23. 23.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 12:47 pm

    The Lochner era won’t hold a candle to the era that’s just begun. https://t.co/meCbjPLeEy— southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) November 25, 2019

    What does it mean?!— Kristy (@kristy_king) November 25, 2019

    Quick & dirty expl: FEC, FCC, FDA etc won't be able to make decisions. Like the EPA couldn't add a pollutant if that's considered a "major decision". That would belong to Congress alone. Congress would not be able to delegate responsibilities.— L Quinn (@Quinnecticut) November 25, 2019

  24. 24.

    James E Powell

    November 25, 2019 at 12:49 pm

    @different-church-lady:

     

    And the people who decide elections will never know the indictment exists or anything about the case it lays out.

  25. 25.

    trollhattan

    November 25, 2019 at 12:49 pm

    In which I learn a new term: bombogenesis

    Snow, rain and strong winds will make travel conditions difficult in parts of the West this week from an expansive storm that will slowly move toward the central United States into this weekend.

    The intensifying storm is located in the northeastern Pacific Ocean and will move into Oregon and Northern California on Tuesday. This storm will likely undergo bombogenesis before it moves inland. This means its pressure will drop at least 24 millibars within 24 hours, making it an intense storm when it strikes.

    From there the storm will track slowly eastward from the West toward the Plains into this weekend through a sharp southward plunge of the jet stream.

    The Weather Channel has named this system Winter Storm Ezekiel.

    Tuesday-Tuesday Night

    The powerful area of low pressure will push inland near the border between Oregon and California by late in the day.

    The intensity of this storm is potentially historic for southwest Oregon and northwest California, the National Weather Service said.

    Strong winds gusting over 70 mph will punch into southwestern Oregon and northwestern California. The winds could cause tree damage and power outages in some areas.

    Snowfall will pick up in the Sierra Nevada and Cascades, as well as the higher terrain of Northern California, particularly above 2,000 feet in elevation. The snowfall will make travel conditions dangerous on Interstate 80 in the Sierra and Interstate 5 in the mountains of Northern California and southern Oregon.

    Rain will also spread southward to the San Francisco Bay Area and the rest of Northern California. This will be the first significant rain of the season for these areas.

    —The Weather Channel

    “Ezekiel” should close the book on the 2019 fire season. You’re a month late, dude.

  26. 26.

    Aleta

    November 25, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Esper is not  looking good.   Two versions in the Post:

    1/2   A ‘breaking story’ after Esper apparently spoke to reporter Dan Lamothe.  (Perhaps prompted by (version 2/2 below) last night’s Post piece (David Ignatious, quoting his Pentagon source) and by all the other criticisms of Esper.

    1/2
    Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper said on Monday that he was “flabbergasted” that his Navy secretary tried to make a secret deal with the White House… 

    The offer by Richard V. Spencer, … contradicted what he had told Esper and other senior defense officials in recent days: that he was considering resigning if Trump forced the issue, Esper said.

    Esper said that when he met with Army and Navy leaders a few weeks ago to discuss the cases of the SEAL, Chief Petty Officer Edward Gallagher, and two U.S. soldiers, they all agreed to rely on the military’s legal system and administrative processes.

    But the defense secretary said he learned Friday from White House officials Spencer had offered an alternative that he had not run by Esper, his superior at the Pentagon.

    .

    2/2
    (David Ignatius) For the past nine months, Spencer had tried to dissuade Trump from dictating special treatment for Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher — but in the end Spencer was sacked for his efforts to protect his service.

    …

    Spencer had tried to find a compromise, sources tell me, after Trump tweeted Thursday, “The Navy will NOT be taking away Warfighter and Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher’s Trident Pin.” Spencer feared that a direct order from Trump to protect Gallagher, who is represented by two former partners of Trump’s personal attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani, would be seen as subverting military justice.

     

    After that Trump tweet, Spencer cautioned acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney that he would not overturn the planned SEAL peer review of Gallagher without a direct presidential order; he privately told associates that if such an order came, he might resign rather than carry it out. Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke with the White House late Thursday to try to avert this collision.

     

    Milley’s de-escalation efforts initially appeared to be successful. A Pentagon official messaged me Friday morning: “Missiles back in their silos … for the time being.” But the truce was short-lived. By Saturday, the White House was demanding to know whether Spencer had threatened to resign; the Navy secretary issued a statement denying that he had made any such public threat and continued to seek a deal that would protect the Navy from a direct showdown with Trump.

     

    “It was a hold-your-nose solution,” said a source close to Spencer about his effort to broker an arrangement that would allow Gallagher to retire at the end of November with his former rank, an honorable discharge and his Trident pin, as Trump wanted, but without direct presidential interference in the SEAL review process. As so often happens with attempts to work with Trump’s erratic demands, this one ended in disaster.

     

    “The president wants you to go,” Esper told Spencer on Sunday, according to this source. Esper then toed the White House line and announced Spencer’s dismissal.

     

    For Pentagon officials who have wondered whether Esper would have the backbone to resist Trump, Sunday’s events were troubling. The Pentagon, like the State Department under Mike Pompeo, is now overseen by an official whose overriding priority seems to be accommodating an impetuous boss in the White House.

    …

    Trump began lobbying Spencer to exempt Gallagher from Navy discipline back in March, when he ordered the Navy secretary in an early-morning phone call to release Gallagher from the brig and give him more comfortable quarters. Presidential pressure has been relentless, ever since.

    …

    One former SEAL commander noted that maintaining discipline among these elite units is so important that the SEAL peer-review panels have removed more than 150 Trident pins since 2011, or more than one a month.

    Note:  Bold =  whoa.

     

    Esper didn’t know that Trump was relentlessly pressuring Spencer?  (I doubt it since T  is not quiet about those things.)  IMO,  more probable is that Esper knew T and Spencer were communicating, but there was nothing he or Spencer could do to stop it.  If so, Esper’s excuse is embarrassingly flimsy.    On twitter someone pointed out that Esper doesn’t even have authority to ‘fire’ Spencer.  Only Trump does.

     

    So Esper’s taking the heat in itself distorts the truth.  That  happens in  the military, but T  is shameless in abusing it.  IMO, Esper by agreeing is smearing Spencer.

  27. 27.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 12:56 pm

    Bill Whitaker:Not a lot of people know that the Russians interfered in five congressional races here in Florida. When did you first get wind of it?

    They gleefully used the Russia-hacked emails because “people have a right to know” then neglected to cover the fact that the Russian government interfered in 5 congressional races in Florida.
    Come on. The thing doesn’t even hold up through a paragraph. They didn’t remain consistent even within these 5 races.
    Information isn’t of any use to people if it isn’t timely. Is this going to happen again? We’ll hear about the races they intervene in 3 years after it happens? WTF is anyone supposed to do with that? It’s too late.

  28. 28.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 12:59 pm

    @catclub:

    I have not much use for ‘treasures’ that are virtually never displayed.

    That’s not what the article describes.  The treasures are on display, but that part of the museum is open by reservation only and limits the number of visitors.  That’s quite different from having the objects on display only occasionally.  Also, they mentioned that some of the objects in the museum were protected because they were on loan to the NY MMA, which doesn’t sound like they’re being terribly restricted.

     

    FWIW, many, many museums have more objects than they can display at any time; they often have more real treasures than they can display at once.  Some stuff may be on permanent display, but a lot of their holdings spend most of their time in storage.  In many cases, public display is really a museum’s secondary function; their primary function is preserving their contents so they’re available for experts.

  29. 29.

    Aleta

    November 25, 2019 at 1:07 pm

    Warren vs. Esper

    Caitlin Kenney in Stars And Stripes,  July 15, 2019

    Esper’s nomination was submitted one day before his already scheduled confirmation hearing in the Senate on Tuesday.

     

    [Btw,  Spencer became acting defense secretary during the short period between Esper’s nomination and confirmation.] 

    Leaders of the Senate Armed Services committee waived the seven-day rule between receiving Esper’s nomination and holding his confirmation hearing, contending it was important to expedite the process given the situation.

    “We need Senate-confirmed leadership at the Pentagon, and quickly,” Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said Thursday in a joint statement with Sen. Jack Reed of Rhode Island, the committee’s ranking Democrat.

    Reed also emphasized the importance of having a confirmed secretary, but he added there are no shortcuts and Esper, like other nominees, “must be thoroughly vetted and carefully evaluated.”

    …

    Esper is 1986 West Point graduate who commissioned as an infantry officer and later worked on Capitol Hill as a staffer and as the vice president for government relations at Raytheon, the top lobbyist for the country’s third largest defense contractor.

    During Esper’s Senate hearing Tuesday, he could be confronted by Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., who wrote him a letter in July, expressing concern about potential conflicts of interest with his former employer.

    “I am troubled by your unwillingness to fully address your real and perceived conflicts of interest, and write to ask that you reconsider your refusal to extend your Raytheon recusal through the duration of your tenure at [the Defense Department],” she wrote.

    Like former acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan, who worked for defense contractor Boeing for more than 30 years before coming to work at the Pentagon, Esper will have to abide by an ethics agreement to avoid conflicts of interest with Raytheon.

    Shanahan was cleared by the Pentagon’s inspector general in May of accusations that he favored his former employer, Boeing, in violation of the ethics pledge that he signed when he arrived at the Pentagon in 2017.

  30. 30.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    November 25, 2019 at 1:13 pm

    @Martin:

     

    I am reading a book on Stalin and the New York Times has a long and proud tradition of being rolled by their sources.  I was really amazing how much something as pro-establishment like the Times let itself be used for misinformation by the Communists.

  31. 31.

    gene108

    November 25, 2019 at 1:13 pm

    I don’t get the journalists using hacked e-mails or just regurgitating WikiLeaks.

     

    If I got somewhat embarrassing stolen material about someone I know, should I (a) report it to the police, or (b) publish it for the world to see?

     

    For me it’s an easy question, report the theft to the police and don’t publish.  You undercut the crooks that way.

     

    But I’m not a hotshot journalist, so what do I know.

  32. 32.

    Martin

    November 25, 2019 at 1:16 pm

    @Aleta: Esper is not  looking good

    Nobody is going to come out looking  good from this shitshow. Everybody loses, no matter how honorable or dishonorable their actions were.

  33. 33.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    November 25, 2019 at 1:16 pm

    @Aleta: Gee, favoring an American defense contractor is almost quaint in this day and age.  I would expect a Trump nominee to call for off shoring the defense industry at a minimum.

  34. 34.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 25, 2019 at 1:17 pm

    @lollipopguild: Please don’t write “the” Ukraine.

  35. 35.

    Martin

    November 25, 2019 at 1:18 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Actually what’s remarkable is that no matter how the management changes, they keep doing it. It’s as if there’s some cursed relic in the basement that causes them to keep making the same stupid decisions over and over for a century.

  36. 36.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 1:20 pm

    @Jeffro: No Jeffy (Timmy).  You want a polka-dotted unicorn that farts rainbows.

  37. 37.

    gene108

    November 25, 2019 at 1:20 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

     

    Stalin and his henchmen were very good at playing the West.

    Western countries – journalists, governments, etc. – just couldn’t grasp how utterly shameless, cynical, and ruthless Stalin and his crew were.

     

    Read a few biographies on Stalin, and he was shocked how credulous Churchill and Roosevelt were, when they met, because Churchill and Roosevelt assumed good faith negotiations were the norm.

     

    Neither Churchill nor Roosevelt operated with Stalin’s base line assumption that anyone you are negotiating with is probably lying to you to undercut you, take over your position, and have you shot.

     

    Stalin used this difference in worldview to his advantage.

  38. 38.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:20 pm

    @patrick II:

     

    the other way of looking at it, is this was “stolen” material, stolen and leaked to fulfil an agenda.

     

    arguably, “leaked” material is also “stolen” material, leaked to fulfil an agenda, but, ususally the “leaker” has some form of lawful access to the material, and the contents of the material, not only motivate, but also support the agenda, and the leaked material has “civic value”,

     

    in the case of the Russian hack:

    – the material was stolen,

    – the material was leaked to support an agenda, which was ratfucking elections,

    – the material had no “civic value”.

     

    The only story that the russian hack should have resulted in should have been the russian hack, GOP use with zero publication of the content.

     

    instead, most of the media pitched in heart and soul to assist with every ounce of effort they could contribute, to the Russian and GOP ratfucking of the elections.

     

    the Progressive Observer showed that the Russian/Wikileaks/GrOPer ratfucking had minimal impact. It was the MSM/Comey amplification and constant repetition that made it effective.

     

    Good Job treasonous media!

  39. 39.

    Another Scott

    November 25, 2019 at 1:21 pm

    Speaking of “hacking” – AndroidPolice:

    In one of the biggest breaches in recent history, data from more than 1.2 billion individuals has been leaked online. It stems from a publicly available server which pulled its data from a pair of so-called data enrichment companies — People Data Labs and oxydata — that aggregate personal information on millions of individuals and sell it to customers. The firms in question can’t explain how the data got there.

    The leaked data consists of names, email addresses, phone numbers, and LinkedIn and Facebook profile information, including job history data. It stems from a total of 4 billion individual data sets stored on 4TB of storage. Security research firm Data Viper exposed that the information was available to anyone at [http://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:9200], requiring no password or authentication. Its indexes include some starting with pdl and oxy that contain the majority of personal data. Those initials point to the data enrichment companies People Data Labs and oxydata. When asked for comment by Data Viper, they shared that they didn’t own the servers.

    […]

    To check if you’re affected by the breach, head to a service like haveibeenpwned.com and punch in your email address. According to the website, the data leak described in this article is the fourth biggest it ever recorded with information from 622 million leaked (the service only counts email addresses, not all data sets).

    Source: Data Viper

    (Emphasis added.)

    I x’ed out the IP address – see the original if interested.

    Another day ending in ‘y’. :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  40. 40.

    matt

    November 25, 2019 at 1:23 pm

    Too bad the Vichy type party is so strong here in America. Murdoch has really succeeded in making traitors out of the right wing.

  41. 41.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:24 pm

    @gene108:

     

    Well, we saw what happens. What happens is Republicans then start soliciting foreign interference because it was so wildly successful when it was offered and they took it. That’s the Ukraine scandal.

  42. 42.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 25, 2019 at 1:26 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Walter Duranty is the primary reason many Ukrainians, to this day, have a visceral antipathy toward the NYT.

  43. 43.

    kent

    November 25, 2019 at 1:26 pm

    @Aleta: Forbes has an article up today on this topic talking about how Spencer had long ago been on borrowed time for other management issues and the fact that they had a replacement already teed up basically tells us that this firing was a pretext and that the administration wanted him gone.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/craighooper/2019/11/25/navy-boss-richard-spencer-is-fired-over-repeated-missteps-new-nominee-already-picked/#6f507176f1fa

  44. 44.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:28 pm

    @gene108:

     

    the FTFNYT has always and will always like it’s authotarians, Nazis, Strongmen, Despots and Dictators,

     

    almost like there are institutional daddy issues there.

     

    Stalin and Beria until the ‘50’s got glowing coverage and coverups while Lenin and Trotsky got buried.

  45. 45.

    Cacti

    November 25, 2019 at 1:30 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:  Speaking of which, here’s the Old Gray Lady’s first impression of that Hitler fellow across the pond:

     

    Nov. 21, 1922

     

    But several reliable, well-informed sources confirmed the idea that Hitler’s anti-Semitism was not so genuine or violent as it sounded, and that he was merely using anti-Semitic propaganda as a bait to catch masses of followers and keep them aroused, enthusiastic, and in line for the time when his organization is perfected and sufficiently powerful to be employed effectively for political purposes.

  46. 46.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 1:30 pm

    Fuck Marc Caputo, btw. “The public has a right to know” provides cover for an awful lot of sketchy journalistic ethics.

  47. 47.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 1:32 pm

    @Kay: Exactly. THAT’s the fucking story. Not what was contained in the stolen info, but the fact that the STOLEN INFO WAS USED TO STEAL ELECTIONS.

  48. 48.

    kent

    November 25, 2019 at 1:33 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:@lollipopguild: Please don’t write “the” Ukraine.

     

    Can we still say “the Netherlands” or is that wrong too?

  49. 49.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:34 pm

    @gene108:

     

    So what if that happens? Republicans, having moved thru “stolen information that was offered to them” to “an investigation they actively solicit from a foreign government” (where we are now) to “an investigation/information they trade for US foreign policy” (what will happen next, if it hasn’t already and it sure looks like it has)- still just information that wants to be free or are we into “fruit of the poisoned tree” territory? Where’s the line?

  50. 50.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 1:35 pm

    @Jay:

    arguably, “leaked” material is also “stolen” material, leaked to fulfil an agenda, but, ususally the “leaker” has some form of lawful access to the material, and the contents of the material, not only motivate, but also support the agenda, and the leaked material has “civic value”,

    It’s not just that, though.  When there’s an ordinary leaker, news organizations will not normally publish their leak by itself.  They will make some attempt to judge the credibility and motives of the leaker and try to confirm or refute their information with other sources.  That’s Journalism 101 stuff: you don’t trust a single source who may be lying to you or manipulating you.  It’s incredible the extent to which the media ignored those basic rules of journalism in the emails business.

  51. 51.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 1:36 pm

    @gene108:

    I don’t get the journalists using hacked e-mails or just regurgitating WikiLeaks

    Excitement! Intrigue! Entertainment! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    The fucking TV stations treated the 2016 election as anything but a serious matter.

    Remember the endless hours of Dump’s empty podium on CNN even when Clinton or Sanders were making speeches?

  52. 52.

    kent

    November 25, 2019 at 1:36 pm

    @Jay:

    the FTFNYT has always and will always like it’s authotarians, Nazis, Strongmen, Despots and Dictators,

     

    almost like there are institutional daddy issues there.

     

    Stalin and Beria until the ‘50’s got glowing coverage and coverups while Lenin and Trotsky got buried.

    Recently, some middle east expert did an epic tweet storm showing all the endless examples of the NYT apologizing for Saudi Arabia since the 40s or 50s.  Basically how they were always just on the edge of reform and modernization and so forth.  Wish I had saved it.

  53. 53.

    Cacti

    November 25, 2019 at 1:38 pm

    @kent: The official name of the state is Koninkrijk der Nederlanden (Kingdom of the Netherlands), so you’re probably okay with that one.

  54. 54.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:38 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

     

    Right? That would seem to me to be quite the scoop! “Breaking! The Russian government interfered in 5 Florida congressional races!” My God, that’s just wild.

     

    Instead they’re debating the essential nature of information. What the heck IS it, anyway?

  55. 55.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:38 pm

    Fraction of all US wealth owned by Boomers & Gen-Xers when the average member of each was age 35:

    Boomers, 1989 21%

    GenX, 2008 8%

    The average Millennial turns 35 in 2023. Right now they own 3%.

    There will surely be political implications.https://t.co/j1pNrt8mll— Kurt Andersen (@KBAndersen) November 24, 2019

  56. 56.

    James E Powell

    November 25, 2019 at 1:39 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

     

    I feel like that’s a guy begging to be doxed. Am I completely out of line here? I mean, he’s essentially an advocate for stealing information. He does not condemn it, he does not believe publishing it was wrong then, and he says he will publish it now.

  57. 57.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 25, 2019 at 1:41 pm

    @kent: Yes, because it is a collective noun, just as “The United States” is. “Ukraine” is not a collective noun.

     

    Reading assignment for tomorrow’s class.

  58. 58.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 1:44 pm

    @Kay:

    What happens is Republicans then start soliciting foreign interference because it was so wildly successful when it was offered and they took it.

    They were openly soliciting Russian help in 2016, too.  At least that seems like the only logical way to interpret Trump’s “Russia, if you’re listening” request.

  59. 59.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:44 pm

    @kent: Baloon Juice is a full service blog,

    In honor of Thomas Friedman’s latest love letter to Saudi here is 70 years of the NY Times describing #Saudi royals in the language of #reform.— Abdullah Al-Arian (@anhistorian) November 24, 2017

  60. 60.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:44 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

     

    Words actually matter too, so I would suggest we state this accurately- the Russian government – the state– interfered in US elections. This doesn’t have jack-all to do with the Russian public, who are just trying to survive in a country that does less for their citizens than just about any other. The Russian public are a fucking dirt poor basket case. NO ONE works for them. They didn’t steal anything. They’re victims of Putin just like ordinary US voters are.

     

    This is 100% about powerful people using and abusing the public in two countries and the ONLY goal is to benefit those powerful people. 

  61. 61.

    gene108

    November 25, 2019 at 1:46 pm

    @Kay:

     

    I’m still amazed the media can’t discuss Russian interference in the Presidential election and Russian interference in Congressional elections.

     

    They have a heard mentality. Once everyone settles on a narrative about what’s going on, they all have to repeat the same thing. They can’t focus on anything else, and are abusive to anyone, who tries to get them to look away from their narrative.

  62. 62.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 1:46 pm

    @kent:

    Can we still say “the Netherlands” or is that wrong too?

    “The Netherlands” is fine; so is “The United States of America”.  There are specific reasons not to talk about Ukraine as “The Ukraine”.  And please don’t talk about “THE Ohio State University”.

  63. 63.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 1:47 pm

    @Another Scott: Yeah, apparently I am one of the people whose info got stolen, according to Have I Been Pwned. >: (

  64. 64.

    Another Scott

    November 25, 2019 at 1:48 pm

    In other news, BBC:

    The Prime Minister appeared on Question Time: Leaders Special on BBC One on Friday evening.

    The audience laughed when he was asked a question about how important it is for people in power to tell the truth.

    But the laughter and subsequent applause was absent from a cut-down version of the exchange on a lunchtime news bulletin the following day.

    “This clip from the BBC’s Question Time special, which was played out in full on the News at Ten on Friday evening and on other outlets, was shortened for timing reasons on Saturday’s lunchtime bulletin, to edit out a repetitious phrase from Boris Johnson,” the BBC said in a statement.

    “However, in doing so we also edited out laughter from the audience. Although there was absolutely no intention to mislead, we accept this was a mistake on our part, as it didn’t reflect the full reaction to Boris Johnson’s answer.

    […]

    (Emphasis added.)

    Of course, of course…

    Still, it’s good they owned up to it. Maybe they’ll be more even handed going forward? Eh, maybe not. :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  65. 65.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 1:52 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    They were openly soliciting Russian help in 2016, too. At least that seems like the only logical way to interpret Trump’s “Russia, if you’re listening” request.

    How the fuck else would anyone thinking rationally interpret that request? It was this side of “Daddy Vladdy! Daddy Vladdy! Fuck with our elections so I don’t go down in history as a total loser!”

    (Sorry, not cursing at you. It was just so obvious and frustrating.)

  66. 66.

    ruemara

    November 25, 2019 at 1:52 pm

    @Another Scott: I don’t trust any source that asks me to go to a like with pwned, that then tells me to go to a Chrome store extension and add that before I can find out if my data was breached. Have another source?

     

    <a href=”#comment-7485928″ rel=”nofollow ugc”>@Jay</a>: There are no political implications when Boomers hold most offices, wealth and set the laws. So I suggest any other generation stop whining, start voting and IDK, general strikes maybe?

    Do you think studies are going to make these guys slap their heads and go, oh yeah, I forgot to share!

  67. 67.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 1:57 pm

    @Roger Moore: France! ?

  68. 68.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:57 pm

    @gene108:

    Well, it’s partly ideological right? The basic premise is there doesn’t need to be oversight or regulation as long as their is sufficient transparency and an “information marketplace”. It’s “let the buyer beware”.

     

    It’s just that I follow this pretty closely and have given it some thought and I don’t know what the public is supposed to do about this, individually. If they only steal information to the detriment of one side and I want the same information from the other side (the Trump campaign emails, say) what do I do? File a discovery demand? I know I only have one side. I just can’t remedy that in any practical way as an ordinary voter. Elections are comparisons between two. We only got stolen information from one.

  69. 69.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 1:58 pm

    @Cacti: And yet, it never seems to occur to authoritarian-fluffers of any stripe that the “ends justify the means” is not in any way, shape or form an authentic defense – the ends NEVER justify the means, because the means ARE the ends!

  70. 70.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 1:58 pm

    @James E Powell:

     

    doxxing is the process of removing anonaminity from someone, ususally through social media, which exposes them in their private and public lives to the consequences, earned or unearned, of their words or actions.

     

    one cannot “dox” a public figure unless they are using sock puppets on social media to say/do things unethically or offensive under the cover of anonaminity, or exposing “unnamed sources”, etc.

     

    I thing you are referring to the social processes of shunning, shaming and censure.

  71. 71.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:00 pm

    @Another Scott:

     

    paging Tony Jay, Tony Jay, please come to the Front Page,…..

  72. 72.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:01 pm

    @gene108:

     

    Say I watched the House debate where the Republicans used stolen information from his opponents campaign.

     

    Even if I KNOW this happened (and no one did) I still don’t know what to do about it. It’s +1 one side and 0 on the other. How can I compare?  I’m comparing something negative with nothing.

  73. 73.

    Another Scott

    November 25, 2019 at 2:02 pm

    @ruemara: Sorry, I don’t know any more about the breach or the site.

     

    The comments also mention https://monitor.firefox.com/  I haven’t used it myself, but Firefox is a reputable outfit.

     

    My general feeling is that just about everyone’s information is out there in the hands of people who have no business having it even if they’re not called “hackers” – e.g. credit reports, etc., etc.  Just searching for your name on Google can turn up all kinds of “public” information.  :-/

     

    At this point, I figure our only protection is safety in numbers.  Yeah, our information is out there, but the odds of someone picking on our accounts in particular is pretty low.  But we should use “best practices” when we can.

     

    Just my $0.02.  HTH.

     

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  74. 74.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 2:03 pm

    @James E Powell: I know, I keep imagining myself – if I had *no* journalistic ethics, mind – stealing a bunch of these guys’ personal information – the more sensitive and embarrassing, the better – publishing it somewhere, and then justifying it by saying, “the public has a right to know these things about you!”

  75. 75.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:04 pm

    All the GRU has to do in 2020 is retweet Republicans. https://t.co/sFt9voJ0AB

    — Michael Weiss (@michaeldweiss) November 25, 2019

  76. 76.

    different-church-lady

    November 25, 2019 at 2:06 pm

    @Jay: I’m sure Tweeting “OK Boomer” will clear all this right up.

  77. 77.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:09 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

     

    Well, we already know the answer to that. We know how “transparency” is treated in their industry. Just about all of them had rampant “me too” problems for decades and in an industry that reports the news they never told the public any of this was going on.

     

    It would have been nice for voters to know the industry is a fucking cesspool of sexual harassment and old boyism when they were all covering the first female nominee and depicting her as a shrewish, manipulative witch. That’s information we needed.

  78. 78.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 2:14 pm

    @different-church-lady: LOL

  79. 79.

    different-church-lady

    November 25, 2019 at 2:14 pm

    Can we still say “the White House” when referring to the actions of the US presidential administration? After all, it’s a building, and inanimate objects cannot set policy.

  80. 80.

    Kay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:16 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    Remember the debate where Matt Lauer treated Hillary Clinton like a criminal defendant under interrogation and joined with Trump to talk over her and minimize everything she said?

     

    Would the public have viewed that debate differently if the information about Matt Lauer had wanted to be free and was revealed by the 500 “news” people who were aware of it?

    People who are shocked by the allegations of sexual harassment by Matt Lauer are now saying evidence of his poor treatment of women was hiding in plain sight: his widely criticized performance during a presidential forum last September.

    Ooops! We got the information too late to act on it, again! WTF good is it after the fact? They all sat on it for what? Two decades?

  81. 81.

    Miss Bianca

    November 25, 2019 at 2:17 pm

    @Kay:

    It would have been nice for voters to know the industry is a fucking cesspool of sexual harassment and old boyism when they were all covering the first female nominee and depicting her as a shrewish, manipulative witch. That’s information we needed.

    Oh, don’t even get me started. Don’t EVEN get me started. I just picture the misogynists on both the right and the left end of the political spectrum, with their leering and cackling, going, “Nature and Nurture both agree – it’s all (Bad! Evil!) MOM’S fault!”

  82. 82.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:21 pm

    @ruemara:

     

    there’s a bunch of Billionaires writing op-eds, (nothing productive mind you) about how they should be less greedy and pay more taxes in hopes of not winding up on the tumbrel list.

     

    there’s a bunch of Boomers, ( mostly the also screwed) who are aware that pulling up the ladder for future generations  was going to have consequences, and has had consequences,

     

    there’s another bunch of Boomers who screwed themselves, ( McMansions as investments) who are mostly whining about the lazy yutes not buying their houses or their luxury brands.

     

    capital and wealth accrued in the early years in the workforce has massive lifelong political, economic and social impacts across the whole fabric of society.

     

    Most of GenX, GenY and Millenials will never recover what was “stolen” from them, and that will resonate and shape the future for a couple generations, ( if the Millenials can fix Capitalism), if they can’t, combined with climate change, the worst Scifi dystopian tale of the future you can think of, will probably turn out to be a rosy bedtime fairytale future generations tell their children before bed.

     

    OK Boomer isn’t going to be just a short term twitter hashtag.

  83. 83.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 25, 2019 at 2:24 pm

    @different-church-lady: It sure will, ‘OK Boomer’ is magic!

  84. 84.

    Uncle Cosmo

    November 25, 2019 at 2:25 pm

    @Jay: The word you wanted was anonymity, from anonymous.

     

    Not sure if this is a case of simple ignorance or of your customary inability to spell properly.

  85. 85.

    brantl

    November 25, 2019 at 2:26 pm

    @kent: I don’t know, are you good with saying “the United States” ?

    Are you good with saying “The New York” when talking about the state itself, or the city itself? Bonehead.

  86. 86.

    BC in Illinois

    November 25, 2019 at 2:32 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    And please don’t talk about “THE Ohio State University”.

     

    When I lived in North Carolina, I saw (only once) a decal that said:

     

    DUKE: The University of North Carolina

     

    I thought it was well-played.

  87. 87.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 25, 2019 at 2:33 pm

    @Jay: Boomers are not alone responsible for the shitty policies that have caused income and wealth disparity,  Greatest Gen, Silents, and Gen-X have been there as well making policy for the last 40 years that have caused this disparity.  So enough of this ‘OK Boomer’ bullshit.

  88. 88.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:37 pm

    @different-church-lady:

     

    impacts here so far have been:

    – doubling of the “luxury car” tax,

    – doubling of the 2nd home taxes

    – tripling empty housing taxes,

    – max home size, 2500 sq ft, min home size, 540 sq ft,

    – elimination of tax exemptions for assisted home living and assisted living facilities for above the poverty line clientel,

    – rezoning of new assisted/retirement living facilities requiring a 60% occupation by people living below the poverty line,

     

    basically, if you are a typical boomer, here you are going to have to spend every last hoarded and stolen penny in you old age because the youth’s see no reason to subsidize your lifestyle, when they need living wages, housing and childcare.

     

    for a start.

     

    there’s a 12 year old gated community, currently abandoned going under the bulldozer next year, to make way for public housing. The owners of the housing counted on the sale of their homes, to fund much of their retirement. Funny thing is, the follow on generations had no money to buy, and no interest, so the homes didn’t sell, fell into disrepair and wound up abandoned.

     

    Ok Boomer,…

  89. 89.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:40 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

     

    OK Boomer,….

  90. 90.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 2:45 pm

    It’s not a secret why Wikileaks has awoken from their slumber. 2020 is coming.— Scott Stedman (@ScottMStedman) November 24, 2019

  91. 91.

    different-church-lady

    November 25, 2019 at 2:49 pm

    Every week is National Brotherhood Week.

  92. 92.

    germy

    November 25, 2019 at 2:52 pm

    OK Boomer ? pic.twitter.com/U6oj36uwxM

    — Mike Galsworthy (@mikegalsworthy) November 25, 2019

  93. 93.

    phdesmond

    November 25, 2019 at 2:53 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: “the Argentine” is also to be discouraged as a term for Argentina.  it’s used mostly by aging anglo-argentinians, i believe.

  94. 94.

    germy

    November 25, 2019 at 2:57 pm

    “The Donald” is still acceptable, though.

  95. 95.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 2:57 pm

    @Another Scott:

    Just searching for your name on Google can turn up all kinds of “public” information.

    Speak for yourself!  That said, having a relatively common name has a whole different set of potential problems attached.  When I have looked myself on one of these data broker things, I discovered that they have all kinds of misinformation about me: they think I’m 20 years older than I am, that I’m married, etc.  It’s bad enough that people are collecting information about me to use in making their decisions, but when they’re collecting and disseminating misinformation it’s that much worse.

  96. 96.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 3:00 pm

    @germy: I prefer the long form: The Soviet shitpile mobster conman who’s been sucking the Kremlin’s ass since 1987.

  97. 97.

    Roger Moore

    November 25, 2019 at 3:01 pm

    @Kay:

    Ooops! We got the information too late to act on it, again!

    I’m still angry at FTFNYT for refusing to publish the information they had on Bush’s warrantless wiretap program until well after the 2004 election.  It might have made a big difference in the election, and they chose to sit on it because they were worried about that.

  98. 98.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 25, 2019 at 3:02 pm

    @Roger Moore: I checked your name on Google and you died a few years ago.

  99. 99.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    November 25, 2019 at 3:03 pm

    @Jay: OK Asshole.

  100. 100.

    germy

    November 25, 2019 at 3:07 pm

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Unfortunate that Trump's father destroyed Steeplechase Park; that family has been a plague for generations. https://t.co/EZdXLKLKDG

    — Citiview (@CitiviewNYC) November 25, 2019

  101. 101.

    mrmoshpotato

    November 25, 2019 at 3:14 pm

    @germy: I apologize for my generosity.  I was using trashing NATO as my baseline.

  102. 102.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 3:15 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    funny how the big take away from this:

    capital and wealth accrued in the early years in the workforce has massive lifelong political, economic and social impacts across the whole fabric of society.

    Most of GenX, GenY and Millenials will never recover what was “stolen” from them, and that will resonate and shape the future for a couple generations, ( if the Millenials can fix Capitalism), if they can’t, combined with climate change, the worst Scifi dystopian tale of the future you can think of, will probably turn out to be a rosy bedtime fairytale future generations tell their children before bed.

    was #notallboomers,

    OK Boomer,

  103. 103.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 25, 2019 at 3:15 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: So his plan has worked.

  104. 104.

    Tired of misinformation

    November 25, 2019 at 3:44 pm

    @FelonyGovt: only some? Seems like 90+%

  105. 105.

    waspuppet

    November 25, 2019 at 3:44 pm

    @patrick II: Well, I’m taking it for granted that the reporter is verifying that it’s real before even considering using it. I guess I shouldn’t do that.

  106. 106.

    Sab

    November 25, 2019 at 4:12 pm

    @Jay: I am a Boomer who started my first year working out of grad school with the Volker recession. The prime interest rate was above 15 % and in my state the unemployment rate was nearly 20%.

    We didn’t all have smooth sailing all the way. Eventually, years later, when I had finally settled down, we all got hit with our retirement savings being wiped out in the 2008 recession.

    I bought a modest house. I drive tiny Hondas. I rarely went away on vacations. I did  save for my retirement. About the only thing I pissed money away on was higher education and veterinary bills for rescue pets.

    We Boomers don’t whine as much as the gen-xers, because our parents grew up in the Depression and WWII, so we always knew things could have been worse.

  107. 107.

    Jay

    November 25, 2019 at 4:41 pm

    @Sab:

     

    the Media and the Parser’s claim the last “boomers” were 1964.

     

    the reality is generational divides are not based on when your parents had sex, but instead communal life experiences.

     

    being a 1961 birth, by some accounts, I am a Boomer, but I’m not. My brother, born 1, 1 month and 9 days year earlier than me had a completely difference generational experience. He graduated with a paid for education, ( minimal costs, well paid coop semesters) into a booming economy. I graduated with student debt, (70% tuition hikes and fees, few paid coops) into the Volker Recession as well.

     

    those who hold that the shared generational experience lump us, ( 1961-) into the GenX category.

     

    Millenials are starting their first decade of working life with a tiny fraction of what GenX had,

     

    if the trends continue, Millennials kids will be born into lifelong debt and peonage. Serfdom and slavery will be back.

     

    Stat I saw recently is that the median wage/benifits increase since 1970, adjusted for inflation, in the US, in 2018 was $1,000 a year.

     

    on the other hand, a world in which 90+ of the tax/fees base has only 3% of the wealth is a Libertarian/ReThug wet dream. Should do wonders for social programs.

  108. 108.

    J R in WV

    November 25, 2019 at 4:47 pm

    @catclub:

     

    I don’t think these pieces were kept from public view, NPR says the museum’s web page states:

     

    the full breadth of the collection’s thousands of pieces wasn’t put on public display until around 15 years ago, the museum says on its website.

    So for the past 15 years they have been on public display.

  109. 109.

    Chris T.

    November 25, 2019 at 5:17 pm

    @Roger Moore: I thought it was “The Amsterdam”, as they say in The Canada.

  110. 110.

    J R in WV

    November 25, 2019 at 5:21 pm

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

     

    I am reading a book on Stalin and the New York Times has a long and proud tradition of being rolled by their sources.  I was really amazing how much something as pro-establishment like the Times let itself be used for misinformation by the Communists.

    Yes, the NYTimes has also praised Mr Adolf Hitler from 1922 until 1938, and really never criticized him until war was declared.

     

    Then there was this guy:

    Walter Duranty. Orlando, Florida, U.S. Walter Duranty (May 25, 1884 – October 3, 1957) was a Liverpool-born Anglo-American journalist who served as the Moscow Bureau Chief of The New York Times for fourteen years (1922–1936) following the Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War (1918–1921).

     

    Mr Duranty never reported on actual events in the USSR, he stayed in Moscow and reported on what he was told by the politburo instead. According to his reporting, there was never a famine in Georgia and Ukraine, and certainly not one caused by shipping the year end harvest away from the people of Georgia and Ukraine, leaving them with nothing to eat whatsoever. But he was, again, reporting from Moscow, not from Kyev, etc.

     

     

    Edited to add

    :

    From Gin & Tonic:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Walter Duranty is the primary reason many Ukrainians, to this day, have a visceral antipathy toward the NYT.

    There, see what I mean!!

  111. 111.

    Sab

    November 25, 2019 at 5:29 pm

    @Jay: The millennials I know, regardless of education, are almost uniformly having a really tough time. Blue collar guys getting $15 an hour, the educated ones living in a gig economy, where their pay may be good or bad, but is always uncertain, with shocking levels of student loans. Even the kids with good jobs know those are tenuous. Ours were also, but we thought that was a temporary aberation, not the new normal.

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