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You are here: Home / Politics / Impeachment Inquiry / House Intelligence Impeachment report is out

House Intelligence Impeachment report is out

by David Anderson|  December 3, 20192:17 pm| 93 Comments

This post is in: Impeachment Inquiry, Russia, Lock Him Up...Lock Them All Up

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The House Intelligence Committee impeachment report just dropped with 300 pages of details:

 

The impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump, the 45th President of the United States, uncovered a months-long effort by President Trump to use the powers of his office to solicit foreign interference on his behalf in the 2020 election. As described in this executive summary and the report that follows, President Trump’s scheme subverted U.S. foreign policy toward Ukraine and undermined our national security in favor of two politically motivated investigations that would help his presidential reelection campaign. The President demanded that the newly elected Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, publicly announce investigations into a political rival that he apparently feared the most, former Vice President Joe Biden, and into a discredited theory that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the 2016 presidential election. To compel the Ukrainian President to do his political bidding, President Trump conditioned two official acts on the public announcement of the investigations: a coveted White House visit and critical U.S. military assistance Ukraine needed to fight its Russian adversary.

 

That is the language of bribery.

 

House Impeachment report is out

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Reader Interactions

93Comments

  1. 1.

    Cheryl Rofer

    December 3, 2019 at 2:26 pm

    They have focused on the Ukraine shakedown. That makes sense – it’s what they’ve been holding hearings on. I hope they include the kitchen sink in the Articles of Impeachment.
    I’ve very quickly scanned the executive summary. Looks like a careful job.
    I’ve got some real life things to do this afternoon. Will comment when I can.
    Meanwhile, a great number of reporters will be commenting on Twitter.

    First big takeaway from House intel report: It concludes that VP Pence– who would become POTUS if Trump is removed– was "either knowledgeable of or active participant" in conduct that is basis for impeachment. pic.twitter.com/Ty5eQtYDAx

    — Michael Isikoff (@Isikoff) December 3, 2019

  2. 2.

    Lapassionara

    December 3, 2019 at 2:27 pm

    Hmmmmm. About one third of the report is focused on obstruction of justice. Wonder how the Republicans will defend that conduct?

  3. 3.

    Cheryl Rofer

    December 3, 2019 at 2:27 pm

    ?House Intel Committee releases Ukraine report. Chairman Schiff: “the inquiry uncovered overwhelming and uncontested evidence that Trump abused the powers of his office to solicit foreign interference in our election for his own personal, political gain. #NoOneIsAboveTheLaw.” pic.twitter.com/UI90nkPMDY

    — Christine Pelosi (@sfpelosi) December 3, 2019

  4. 4.

    Lynn Dee

    December 3, 2019 at 2:28 pm

    Nice point headings — they tell the story. Even Fox News viewers should be able to read the Table of Contents and get the gist of what happened.

  5. 5.

    Cheryl Rofer

    December 3, 2019 at 2:28 pm

    From the impeachment report just released by @HouseIntel pic.twitter.com/h02tY8p8Zn

    — Alexander Nazaryan (@alexnazaryan) December 3, 2019

  6. 6.

    WhatsMyNym

    December 3, 2019 at 2:29 pm

    It’s nice to see that Rep. Hunter (trump early supporter) is making headlines on the same day, for his Guilty Plea to corruption.

    Hunter, 42, a U.S. Marine Corps combat veteran and early supporter of President Donald Trump, had originally pleaded not guilty in the case and insisted before this week that he was the victim of a politically motivated prosecution.

    He appeared on Tuesday before U.S. District Judge Thomas Whelan in San Diego for a hearing that lasted less than 10 minutes, calmly answering “guilty” when asked by the judge for his plea to a single count of conspiring to use campaign funds for non-campaign purposes.

    via Reuters

  7. 7.

    clay

    December 3, 2019 at 2:29 pm

    @Lapassionara: “You can’t impeach someone for process crimes!”

  8. 8.

    clay

    December 3, 2019 at 2:30 pm

    @Cheryl Rofer: “investigation must continue”…. Nice.

  9. 9.

    germy

    December 3, 2019 at 2:30 pm

    The report pulls virtually all punches towards Barr. Which is problematic.

    — emptywheel (@emptywheel) December 3, 2019

  10. 10.

    waspuppet

    December 3, 2019 at 2:33 pm

    “He Didn’t Do It” b/w “It’s Great That He Did It” is going to be the GOP Christmas single.

     

    And not one person in the “liberal” media will ask anyone singing the A-side about any fellow Republicans singing the B-side, or vice versa.

  11. 11.

    oldster

    December 3, 2019 at 2:35 pm

    This is good.  It makes the essential point in simplest terms: Trump perverted American foreign policy for personal ends.

     

    This is what I found lacking in the 2:40 video that was posted earlier: that had gripping talking heads, but not simple summation of the charge.  Schiff knows how to do it.

     

    Trump put his own private interests ahead of the interests of America and its allies.

     

    This needs to be repeated at every opportunity.  Good on Schiff for putting it front and center.

  12. 12.

    sukabi

    December 3, 2019 at 2:35 pm

    @Lapassionara: repubs will defend obstruction by obstructing of course.

  13. 13.

    catclub

    December 3, 2019 at 2:37 pm

    @Lapassionara: 

    About one third of the report is focused on obstruction of justice.

    Good!

  14. 14.

    Lapassionara

    December 3, 2019 at 2:39 pm

    @clay: Bill Clinton would like a word.

  15. 15.

    Dmbeaster

    December 3, 2019 at 2:39 pm

    If the “favor” had been a $1,000,000 for Trump, the GOP would still claim it was not bribery.  Of course, the election boost from bogus investigations was worth far more than $1,000,000.

  16. 16.

    Gravenstone

    December 3, 2019 at 2:41 pm

    @Lapassionara: IOKIYAR! Same as always….

  17. 17.

    Lapassionara

    December 3, 2019 at 2:41 pm

     

     

    @sukabi: or use Barr’s defense, “he was upset, so he didn’t feel like cooperating.”

  18. 18.

    catclub

    December 3, 2019 at 2:43 pm

    @Lapassionara: Pretty sure Clay had that in mind.

  19. 19.

    Mary G

    December 3, 2019 at 2:46 pm

    Seen a few interesting nuggets. Rudy was in touch with OMB, chart of more than one phone call between Devin Nunes and Lev Parnas.

  20. 20.

    Jeffro

    December 3, 2019 at 2:54 pm

    “theSERVERwhatabouttheSERVERTHESERVERtheSERVER” – trumpov’s response

     

    he really would be happier in a padded cell with Fox News on 24/7 and all the cheeseburgers he wants

  21. 21.

    Lock Trump Up

    December 3, 2019 at 2:54 pm

    Still wish Dems could have waited to get testimony from Bolton, et al but the verdict of history will not look kindly on the zombie Republicans who stuck with Trump to the bitter end.

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 2:56 pm

    @WhatsMyNym: What I want to know is what the government is getting from him in exchange for letting him plead to only one count when he was charged with 60 counts? What did he have to give up, in terms of evidence on others, for the government to give him this sweetheart deal?

  23. 23.

    trollhattan

    December 3, 2019 at 2:56 pm

    @Jeffro:

    A cell with hamberder padding!

  24. 24.

    Llelldorin

    December 3, 2019 at 2:57 pm

    @Lapassionara:

    Wonder how the Republicans will defend that conduct? 

    Defend? Republicans never defend anything. They’ll just attack.

  25. 25.

    Duane

    December 3, 2019 at 2:59 pm

    We’ll see if Senate Republicans have any decency left. If this isn’t enough to get Trumpov removed from office, and Pence too, there’s nothing they can’t do and get away with it.

  26. 26.

    Mike in NC

    December 3, 2019 at 3:00 pm

    Executive Summary of the Executive Summary: Trump is a mob boss who demands loyalty unto death from his equally corrupt minions.

  27. 27.

    gvg

    December 3, 2019 at 3:00 pm

    What strikes me is Trump is trying to recreate the same conditions as he won under in 2016. He is an inexperienced politician and doesn’t know how to run a different campaign in a different year. This screams that he Knows that Comey’s investigation announcement AND Russian interference were the keys to his win.  He also would really like to run against Hillary again, though that is not as obvious here, it’s something I have noticed from what I hear from his rallies and twitter.

    We need to keep him off balance and change things on him.

  28. 28.

    banditqueen

    December 3, 2019 at 3:05 pm

    Just got this message from Kamala–she is suspending her campaign for president:

    My campaign for president simply doesn’t have the financial resources we need to continue.

    I’m not a billionaire. I can’t fund my own campaign. And as the campaign has gone on, it’s become harder and harder to raise the money we need to compete.

    In good faith, I can’t tell you, my supporters and volunteers, that I have a path forward if I don’t believe I do.

    So, to you my supporters, it is with deep regret — but also with deep gratitude — that I am suspending my campaign today.

    But I want to be clear with you: I am still very much in this fight.

    And I will keep fighting every day for what this campaign has been about. Justice for The People. All the people.

    Our campaign has been about fighting for people whose voices have not been heard or too often ignored.

    We will keep up that fight.

    Here is a bit more.

  29. 29.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 3:05 pm

    @germy: Person with no:

    1. Legal training.
    2. National security experience.
    3. Foreign policy experience.
    4. Experience working in government.
    5. Actual experience working at all as anything other than a full time blogger.

    Has decided to fact check the work of a bunch of national security experts, both those with legal and those with other backgrounds, that were assembled to be the investigative staff by Schiff back in January 2019. There are times when Marcy’s analysis is spot on. There are times when she needs to zip it. This would have been one of those times.

  30. 30.

    Roger Moore

    December 3, 2019 at 3:08 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What I want to know is what the government is getting from him in exchange for letting him plead to only one count when he was charged with 60 counts?

    My guess is the main thing they get is that they avoid a trial and he resigns from Congress immediately.  Prosecutors have a tendency to overcharge and bargain down, so it shouldn’t be a surprise if they did it in his case, too.

  31. 31.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 3, 2019 at 3:09 pm

    @banditqueen: Um, there’s a 300+ comment thread about that right below this one.

  32. 32.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 3, 2019 at 3:10 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: So, um, not a fan, then?

  33. 33.

    germy

    December 3, 2019 at 3:11 pm

    The Hill is conducting a meticulous review of opinion columns written by John Solomon on the subject of Ukraine that will be handled by a team of editors and reporters. All results of the review will be transparent and public.— Bob Cusack (@BobCusack) December 3, 2019

  34. 34.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 3, 2019 at 3:13 pm

    @germy: Locking the barn door after the horse has moved to the next state and started a family.

  35. 35.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 3:13 pm

    @germy:   A little damn late, hmmm?

  36. 36.

    catclub

    December 3, 2019 at 3:14 pm

    @Mike in NC: Trump is a mob boss who demands loyalty unto death from his equally corrupt minions.

     

    The appalling part is how many of his minions are happy to be that way.

  37. 37.

    catclub

    December 3, 2019 at 3:16 pm

    @Lock Trump Up: Still wish Dems could have waited to get testimony from Bolton,

     

    In principle, when there is a trial in the Senate, Bolton and others could be called.

  38. 38.

    banditqueen

    December 3, 2019 at 3:16 pm

     

    @Gin & Tonic:  sorry, I just came in.

  39. 39.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 3:16 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Sometimes I think she’s spot on. But watching her nitpick people when she doesn’t have the expertise or experience to do so, not so much. I once watched her contradict a former Assistant AG for Policy live on MSNBC about DOJ procedures and just shook my head. Because she knows more about DOJ procedures than he does.

  40. 40.

    Jean

    December 3, 2019 at 3:19 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Couldn’t agree more!

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    December 3, 2019 at 3:20 pm

    NEW: What we learned from the phone records the House obtained as part of its impeachment inquiry https://t.co/1pUuYHY0S9
    — Tierney Sneed (@Tierney_Megan) December 3, 2019

    The article is an interesting example of just how incriminating detailed phone records can be even without any direct knowledge of the contents. Showing who was talking to whom and when they were talking in relation to other, publicly known events is enough to be very suggestive. It’s an important reason to want to resist the kind of generalized traffic analysis NSA was trying to do with their phone metadata program.

  42. 42.

    CarolDuhart2

    December 3, 2019 at 3:20 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Of course, Trump is also just as inept and even worse than inept.  Trump’s whole life has been swimming in a very narrow pool of minions who are both corrupt and inadequate.  A real mob boss would know about “trust but verify” here and that people will sell you out in a minute.

     

    Bummed out a little about Kamela.  But I think a lot of the Dem candidates have misread the room.  People want to get back to

    sanity not necessarily normalcy.   I think we all know that normalcy isn’t really coming back.  Like Eve after she bit the apple, awareness is permanent.  Finding out about just how strong we are, and how Trumptian some folks are isn’t going away.  And I suspect the Resistance isn’t going away either, no matter what happens next November.

  43. 43.

    eric

    December 3, 2019 at 3:24 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: you cannot be the smartest person in the room if you dont correct or admonish others.  It is a syndrome that smart or accomplished people tend to have.

  44. 44.

    Martin

    December 3, 2019 at 3:25 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I can’t imagine they’re getting much of anything. This doesn’t appear to be part of a larger scheme.

  45. 45.

    CarolDuhart2

    December 3, 2019 at 3:26 pm

    @Roger Moore:  He may also want to avoid an expensive trial that comes on top of an expensive divorce.  Having his “girlfriends” testify at both will sink whatever political hopes he may have down the road.  (I think they are sunk now, but at least maybe he could wait a decade or two for some obscure appointed position).  And one charge means one sentence only, not a pileon that could have him years and years in jail.

  46. 46.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 3:28 pm

    @Jean: And honestly, the tweet about Barr bothered me less than the one that immediately preceded it in that thread where she was complaining about how something was phrased. Unless she’s been awarded a TS/SCI and had access to what the professional investigative staff were looking at when they wrote that report, she has no idea why they phrased it like that other than what has been publicly reported.

     

    Finally, as someone who has written thousands of pages of assessments and analysis for the US government – most for the Army and DOD – over the past 12 years, though usually in no more than 50 page write ups, you’re going to have an office sentence here or there if you’re document is 300 pages. Especially when different parts where written by different people and have to be edited to read with one voice. Or as close to one voice as possible.

  47. 47.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 3:30 pm

    @eric: You, sir, are wrong!//

  48. 48.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 3:33 pm

    @Martin: Ken White is on the case.

    Hunter entered a guilty plea to conspiring with his wife to convert campaign funds to personal use in violation of 18 USC 371 (the generic federal conspiracy statute) and 52 US 30109(d) and 30114(b) (the object of the conspiracy – the federal campaign funds laws). /2

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    /4 [The elements, and factual basis, are important because Hunter is already trying to spin this, suggesting he just wasn't paying attention to records — but he admitted intentionally violating the law. That's a dangerous game you're playing with the judge, Congressman*.

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    /6 The judge is not bound by the Sentencing Guidelines calculation, but most use it as a starting point. Here, the parties have stipulated to most of the arcane and complex sentencing factors, making it fairly clear what the Guideline recommended sentence is. That part's normal.

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    /8 The government has agreed to take 8 levels of "offense level" off for various reasons, changing the recommended range from 30-37 months of custody to 8-14 months of custody, of which half can be spent on home detention.

    That is a HUGE departure. I've never seen one like it.

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    /10 So. This agreement is quite unusual in my experience. It could represent a concern about the government's chances at trial, it could represent sincere mercy (rather selectively applied, but hey), or it could represent Hunter's extraordinary influence and backing. Dunno.

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    /12 Anyway, bottom line, he'll take a federal felony, and it's probable he'll do some time. Unless, of course, Trump pardons him, which is entirely possible. His highest risk right now is pissing off the judge with his public statements. Character is destiny.

    /end

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

    Update: I linked the wrong plea agreement in the first post in this thread. Here's Duncan's. https://t.co/4WOo1M7enS

    — YesMalarkeyHat (@Popehat) December 3, 2019

  49. 49.

    PPCLI

    December 3, 2019 at 3:34 pm

    @Lapassionara: On the obstruction point, I hope that there will be lots of exposure of Lindsey Graham’s speeches when he was floor manager of the impeachment hearings for Clinton. Like this one, stating flatly that failing to comply with Congressional subpoenas is inherently obstruction of justice because it is acting like “judge and jury” in your own case:

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=21&v=Zw2ZHDdxVUk&feature=emb_logo

  50. 50.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    December 3, 2019 at 3:36 pm

    @Lynn Dee:

    This offers facts not in evidence (that Faux “News” viewers can read, or read):

    Even Fox News viewers should be able to read the Table of Contents and get the gist of what happened.

  51. 51.

    Bruuuuce

    December 3, 2019 at 3:36 pm

    I understand why the Dems prefer to frame this as bribery, since that is specifically listed in the Constitution as impeachable. But to me, the whole thing comes off as extortion.

     

    Then again, both are tried and true Mob tactics, and as noted upthread and many other places, the Obstructor-in-Chief is essentially a glorified Mob boss (and has been for decades)

  52. 52.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 3, 2019 at 3:38 pm

    @Lapassionara:

    Wonder how the Republicans will defend that conduct?

    Easy. Just like they’ve done before. It’s just a “process crime”.

  53. 53.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 3, 2019 at 3:42 pm

    @gvg:

    We need to keep him off balance and change things on him.

    This ?.

  54. 54.

    Kent

    December 3, 2019 at 3:45 pm

    If you are going to subvert democracy and undermine elections as Trump is hell-bent on doing then the only alternative is armed insurrection and assassinations.  I don’t know why no one is making this point.

  55. 55.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 3:46 pm

    OT.  FTF NY Times.  Their front page headline, under the national news roundup.

     

    California Congressman Pleads Guilty in Campaign Finance Case.

     

    Duncan Hunter Jr. is less letters, FTFNYTimes.  And more descriptive.

  56. 56.

    Kent

    December 3, 2019 at 3:47 pm

    @Bruuuuce:

    I understand why the Dems prefer to frame this as bribery, since that is specifically listed in the Constitution as impeachable. But to me, the whole thing comes off as extortion.

     

    Then again, both are tried and true Mob tactics, and as noted upthread and many other places, the Obstructor-in-Chief is essentially a glorified Mob boss (and has been for decades)

    We went over this in a previous thread.  It is actually both.   Trump extorted Ukraine in an attempt to solicit a bribe (Biden Investigation).

  57. 57.

    trollhattan

    December 3, 2019 at 3:51 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    Wait ’til Fox gets their mitts on it: “Congressman Duncan Hunter (D, CA)”

  58. 58.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 3:52 pm

    @trollhattan:   I was wondering if FTF NYTimes was hoping some of its lookie loos might be thinking — oh good — that Shitty Adam Schiff.  I knew he was dirty!

  59. 59.

    Bruuuuce

    December 3, 2019 at 3:52 pm

    @Kent: Thanks. I probably missed that thread because I’ve not been home for most of the last ten days, either dealing with moving my MiL (from Fishkill to Poukeepsie, so not far, but a slog with all the stuff) or picking up and then returning my daughter to college (in Allentown, and we live in Queens)

  60. 60.

    CarolDuhart2

    December 3, 2019 at 3:53 pm

    Also, the charge involves using campaign money for expenses not related to the campaign at all. So it’s clear he doesn’t have a deep well of private funds.  And he’s not sure that a jury would let him off either.  This way he salvages something for himself.  He isn’t counting on a Trump pardon-he’s too small and his crimes don’t involve making brown people cry.

  61. 61.

    Martin

    December 3, 2019 at 3:54 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: ‘Dungeons and Dragons for lawyers’ now makes me want to be a lawyer. I’ll be over it as soon as I’m done with this sandwich, but there was a moment there…

  62. 62.

    Martin

    December 3, 2019 at 3:56 pm

    @CarolDuhart2: Bet now he’s wishing he’d murdered some Iraqi civilians. That’s how you get a pardon these days.

  63. 63.

    chopper

    December 3, 2019 at 3:56 pm

    @Lapassionara:

     

    About one third of the report is focused on obstruction of justice. Wonder how the Republicans will defend that conduct?

    “it’s okay to obstruct a witch hunt, which isn’t justice”

  64. 64.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 3, 2019 at 3:58 pm

    @Elizabelle: Fewer letters.

  65. 65.

    Mallard Filmore

    December 3, 2019 at 4:00 pm

    @trollhattan:

     

    Wait ’til Fox gets their mitts on it: “Congressman Duncan Hunter (D, CA)”

    I think Fox would go more in this direction: “A Congressman from that liberal cesspool state of California …”

  66. 66.

    chopper

    December 3, 2019 at 4:00 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

     

    Legal training.

    well let’s be fair here, if we only let the lawyers opine on the legal stuff then 95% of people on the internet would have to shut right the fuck up and hey, this isn’t a bad idea.

  67. 67.

    cmorenc

    December 3, 2019 at 4:02 pm

    @Bruuuuce: I understand why the Dems prefer to frame this as bribery, since that is specifically listed in the Constitution as impeachable. But to me, the whole thing comes off as extortion.

    Extortion is but bribery but with an inverted incentive presented to the party being induced to act – a threat of deprivation rather than reward.

  68. 68.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    December 3, 2019 at 4:02 pm

    @PPCLI: The House managers should call Sen. Graham as a witness.

  69. 69.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 4:03 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:   Yup.

  70. 70.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 4:05 pm

    @Kent: Most people really don’t want to have to sit for interviews with the Secret Service.

  71. 71.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 4:06 pm

    @Martin: Roll 12 or better for resiliency!

  72. 72.

    CarolDuhart2

    December 3, 2019 at 4:06 pm

    @Martin: So true.  At least he’d be a Fox cause celebre and have a chance of sort.  BTW, his Democratic opponent got into the last two standing, and got 48%. He may not want to run and face that kind of opposition.  And again, I think he wants to salvage something for himself down the road.  It could be a non-elected position, something in private industry/thinktank related.  One sentence served, and he’d get out in time for post-Trumptian convervative positions.  Years in jail, they would forget about him-not famous or connected enough for either.

  73. 73.

    Chris Johnson

    December 3, 2019 at 4:09 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: What I want to know is what the government is getting from him in exchange for letting him plead to only one count when he was charged with 60 counts? What did he have to give up, in terms of evidence on others, for the government to give him this sweetheart deal?

    HEL-lo. Really? And he’s all calm and stuff, with his little plea of guilty?

    He knew something. This is bigger than Trump: they’ve already got Trump, they have to get all the folks dug into the woodwork. There’s no telling what he had, but he gave it up.

    NICE.

    One day we’ll know more of the story. From sixty counts down to one, and suddenly he’s our bestest friend? I like it. He must have flipped HARD.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 3, 2019 at 4:09 pm

    Lev Parnas’s attorney has thoughts. I’m sure Congressman Nunes will be suing him as well.

    Devin Nunes, you should have recused yourself at the outset of the #HIC #ImpeachingHearings. #LetLevSpeak https://t.co/HeG8kFEDwl

    — Joseph A. Bondy (@josephabondy) December 3, 2019

  75. 75.

    chopper

    December 3, 2019 at 4:10 pm

    @cmorenc:

     

    right. they’re two sides of the same coin. there’s little difference between ‘i’ll do something good for you if you give me what i want’ and ‘i won’t do something bad for you if you give me what i want’.

  76. 76.

    Bruuuuce

    December 3, 2019 at 4:11 pm

    @cmorenc: So the carrot and the stick are similar? I doubt even an Elephant(tm) would agree.

  77. 77.

    patroclus

    December 3, 2019 at 4:11 pm

    I realize I’m in the minority but I think we need more evidence and should pursue all of the subpoenas in court and ultimately get a ruling in favor of compelling testimony by Bolton and others.  Yeah, we all know what happened, but there is no witness as yet that confirms what Trump precisely directed – Sondland comes the closest to that but even he confirmed that Trump never directly told him to trade the Burisma/Biden investigation for the aid.  As the Republicans will point out, it was all presumed and assumed – Bolton or others could provide more of a smoking gun.

     

    But a two-track process could work.  We impeach now and the Senate holds a trial and “exonerates.”  Meanwhile, the investigation continues and the subpoenas are pursued to their conclusion; which would allow for a 2nd impeachment effort with much more evidence later.  If we do not pursue all avenues, we make the same mistake Mueller made – failing to go after the Trump kids with indictments and failing to even attempt to force testimony from Trump himself (who would surely have lied).  I think I understand why Pelosi, Schiff and Nadler want to move quickly but I don’t necessarily agree with it.  I think it just sets us up for an inevitable defeat and then the whole thing will go away in the subsequent news cycles.  The pressure should continue until Trump is actually gone.  I really can’t believe that we are forgoing the long game.

  78. 78.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    December 3, 2019 at 4:16 pm

    @patroclus: You’re assuming that even with a “smoking gun” the Senate would convict, I don’t think the Speaker is making that assumption. An impeached Trump would weaken him in the general.

  79. 79.

    patroclus

    December 3, 2019 at 4:22 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Not really – I don’t think the Republicans will ever convict no matter what the evidence is.  But I want the judiciary to back up the House and I want this issue to continue to be omnipresent over the long term.  A mere impeachment in 12/19 followed by a quick trial that fails to convict will be old news next November.  An ongoing series of court battles (and favorable rulings) and a potential 2nd impeachment effort keeps all this very much alive until we beat him next November.

  80. 80.

    Gelfling 545

    December 3, 2019 at 4:23 pm

     

     

     

    @Elizabelle: maybe to avoid confusion with the NY congressman due to be sentenced soon? Probably not but could be.

  81. 81.

    MisterForkbeard

    December 3, 2019 at 4:23 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Honestly, not sure he had to give up anything.

    He’s a rich white Republican. They’re going to go easy on him.

  82. 82.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 4:25 pm

    @Gelfling 545:   Ah, thanks.  Who is the NY congresscritter??

  83. 83.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 3, 2019 at 4:27 pm

    @Elizabelle: Chris Collins? From the Buffalo area, pleaded to insider trading and resigned.

  84. 84.

    Elizabelle

    December 3, 2019 at 4:28 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:   Ah, right.  How soon we forget.  Another early Trump supporter.  Sweet.

  85. 85.

    James E Powell

    December 3, 2019 at 4:30 pm

    @Lapassionara:

     

    About one third of the report is focused on obstruction of justice. Wonder how the Republicans will defend that conduct?

     

    If the Democrats want it, it isn’t justice. Cf. Cleek’s Law.

  86. 86.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 3, 2019 at 4:33 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    But that’s not going to matter after a certain point. Enough people will become fed up. Other nations have had similar agencies/forces equivalent to the Seceret Service and yet mass movements arose to challenge the oppressive leader. Some have even led to assassinations.

     

    The law is a joke, particularly when Republicans can interpret laws to get the cruelest outcomes they want or outright break the law when they can’t do that.

     

    It all comes down to, “is this government legitimate?” Why should anybody pretend we’re a nation of laws when we’re apparently clearly not and play by the same rules we’ve always had when the game has changed?

  87. 87.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 3, 2019 at 4:37 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Continued

    I get your argument Adam, but I agree with Kent’s point. When elections are so thoroughly rigged and the government so corrupt, you have little choice but to use violence to remove that government or group from power. The GOP has ultimately fucked themselves because they’re doing their damndest to ensure that the peaceful transfer of power will no longer be possible. Whatever happens from here on out, any civil war, any revolution, will be on their heads

  88. 88.

    NotMax

    December 3, 2019 at 4:39 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Trivia:

    The same day as his assassination, Lincoln signed the bill creating the Secret Service.

    (Which was not then tasked with providing guardianship, but primarily as an anti-counterfeiting agency within the Treasury Dept.)

  89. 89.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    December 3, 2019 at 4:47 pm

    @NotMax:

    Did not know that. Kind of ironic. Thanks

     

    I do think that at some point if the worst is realized and the US becomes an authoritarian one-party state, the Secret Service or individuals within it will have to consider what it is they truly serve; the Constitution or the right-wing autocrat going by the title “President”

  90. 90.

    catclub

    December 3, 2019 at 5:11 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The GOP has ultimately fucked themselves because they’re doing their damndest to ensure that the peaceful transfer of power will no longer be possible.

    I would wait a bit for clearer evidence of this. The right wing nut jobs were saying the same thing about Obama the dictator refusing to  leave the White House.

  91. 91.

    debbie

    December 3, 2019 at 6:22 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I used to do that for a bunch of academics. It is a thankless task.

  92. 92.

    debbie

    December 3, 2019 at 8:30 pm

    OT/ Happily, Hilary Mantal’s new one, The Mirror and the Light, is finally on order at my library. I am tenth in line for it (yea), but I see that the book is 480 pages (yikes).

  93. 93.

    Matt McIrvin

    December 3, 2019 at 9:03 pm

     

     

     

     

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What I want to know is what the government is getting from him in exchange for letting him plead to only one count when he was charged with 60 counts?

    Maybe it’s just Barr quashing the thing to do a fellow crook a favor.

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