Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

Come on, man.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

“woke” is the new caravan.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Everybody saw this coming.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

You are here: Home / Dem Debate Open Thread

Dem Debate Open Thread

by | 313 Comments

I’m watching, dog help me. You? If not, feel free to discuss whatever. It’s been an eventful week!

I’m watching on CNN, and their panel is THE WORST. Van Jones. Axelrod. Bash. Cuomo. Good God, these assholes make me want to scoop out my eyes with a melon baller and jam chopsticks through my eardrums right now.

Anyhoo. Open thread?

Reader Interactions

313Comments

  4. 4.

    Mary G

    Just said in the last thread I’m going to try. If they fight about M4A again, I’m switching over to entertainment. Talk about climate change, racism, poverty, bash the president, that’s what I want to hear

     

    ETA: Now Judy Both Sides has pissed me off already. “Democrats have failed to convince a strong majority of Americans that the president is bad, so why are they fucking it up?”

  17. 17.

    Betty Cracker

    Good answer from Klobuchar on iPOTUS. I liked Warren’s too — we have to draw a sharp contrast with Trump’s corruption, regardless of who’s the nominee.

  20. 20.

    MomSense

    Everywhere I go lately there have been paid signature collectors to qualify either Steyer, Bloomberg, or Patrick for our primary ballot.  Last night the person was asking everyone if they were registered in the Democrat Party.  I could have explained why that was repelling people from signing, but I decided not to.

    I’m trying to watch this debate but I really don’t care anymore.  Biden is probably the only one left who has a shot at winning, but is he really going to say anything new?  The others are guaranteed to lose.  I’ll probably get flamed for saying that, but I really don’t care.  If you talk to people outside the online progressive bubble, you realize what a disaster this field of candidates is.

  21. 21.

    Mary G

    Judy says Yang but wants Steyer, who takes personal credit for the impeachment. LOL at Yang’s “I’m over here!”

  22. 22.

    Doug R

    First Question about how are Democrats failing because impeachment not supported by a big enough majority.
    The Impeached one didn’t get a majority, he’s never been above 50%
    The Fox news poll is at 54%, Impeach AND Remove is at 50%.
    Once again, never good enough for the white gatekeepers.
    And the debate stage is varying shades of white excepting the one-gimmick Yang.

  26. 26.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: 

    I told RWNJ Dad today that with this smaller group and these 7 in particular, now’s Klobuchar’s chance to actually look like a good, plausible alternative to (insert other candidates and their flaws here)

    Who knows?
    Also, who cares? I just want to beat on the GOP for tying themselves to America’s Worst Human BeingTM

  27. 27.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense:

    If you talk to people outside the online progressive bubble, you realize what a disaster this field of candidates is.

    Can you expand on this comment?

  29. 29.

    Brachiator

    I may try to catch debate highlights later. I am tracking the spending bill for work related reasons. There are a number of surprising tax related changes.

    It’s funny. The GOP and Democrats are going to war against each other. And yet they were able to come together to include a huge amount of pork and favors to constituents in this bill (actually, split apart into two bills). There are even some goodies that directly benefit current members of Congress.

    Oh, well. Life goes on.

    ETA: It’s too bad if this debate continues the trend of crappy moderators. With fewer candidates, and some hot current issues, this thing should be more focused and interesting.

  35. 35.

    dnfree

    Klobuchar and Yang had good answers on impeachment. We watch PBS Newshour and Judy should have retired some time ago. She’s not as sharp as she thinks she is.

    Now Klobuchar references Sherrod in support of the trade agreement.

    And now Judy only lets two people answer the trade question.

  36. 36.

    Marcopolo

    Someone please stop the effing moving text behind the candidates when they are responding.

    Driving me nuts.

  38. 38.

    Yarrow

    Is Balloon-Juice really slow for anyone else? I can hardly get the page to refresh. No Cloudfire error so far.

  41. 41.

    dnfree

    Bernie is Shouty McShoutface.  All the time.

     

    edited to add that I’m evidently not the only one who thinks so.

  45. 45.

    MomSense

    @Yarrow:

    Most of my friends IRL and the people I identify with online are very liberal and paying close attention.  The people I interact with through work and in the community have much different views and priorities.  They find the messages and personalities of the top candidates, except for Biden, very offputting and they don’t know who the others are.  I don’t know a single working class person who supports free college or M4All.  Those policies are things more affluent progressives think working class people want.  Socialism is still a dirty word.

  48. 48.

    Yarrow

    Steyer: “I’ve been for a wealth tax for over a year.” LOL. Okay, newbie. Has he moved all his money offshore to protect it from tax or something and now he’s just fine with being taxed?

  53. 53.

    MomSense

    @lamh36:

     

    And Mayo Pete just took her point about people not being able to afford housing.

    Betcha the media will like their messaging.

  62. 62.

    Yarrow

    Really liking Klobuchar tonight. Good command of topics, strong delivery but never shouty. Knows her stuff. Seems smart.

  71. 71.

    Mary G

    Steyer criticizing Mayor Pete on not putting climate change high enough on his priority list. Pete punching back.

  80. 80.

    MomSense

    @Yarrow:

    If they aren’t active in liberal / progressive politics and issues the dislike seems to be widespread.  I think what is being overlooked is that people who aren’t political junkies are not paying attention to policy details. They make decisions based on first impressions.  They don’t like the idea of tax increases or socialism.  These people want someone they feel comfortable with and someone they know.

  82. 82.

    Hob

    @MomSense: You know, there are such things as national opinion polls that talk to people other than the commenters here and whatever people you’re talking to. And they show the main Democratic candidates all beating Trump pretty handily. Granted that polls are iffy and that the regional breakdown matters, but if the general public really hated these candidates as you’re saying, we should be seeing some sign of it in those numbers. Just something to think about the next time you feel like accusing everyone of being in a bubble.

  83. 83.

    Yarrow

    @MomSense:

    These people want someone they feel comfortable with and someone they know.

    Yep. People vote on emotion more than policies. Biden has picked a good lane for going after Trump. Political junkies love Warren’s policy campaign but it doesn’t connect with people’s emotions as well.

  85. 85.

    Percysowner

    I have watched every debate up until now, but this one? I tried, I really tried, but I can’t. I’ll read the reports on the debate and follow here.

  86. 86.

    Betty Cracker

    Klobuchar was smart to bring up rising homeowners insurance cost. It’s a huge issue for a lot of people.

    Yang is the new Unicorn candidate. Go away.

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud:

    PSA:  The site is going to be down for maintenance tonight, sometime between midnight and 6am.  Could be 10 minutes, maybe up to an hour.

    And yes, Pete should shave.  Pete needs to stop listening to the people who are advising him.  Let Bartlet be Bartlet.

  89. 89.

    jl

    I may have to ditch this thing and watch selected clips later to keep my BP under control. Questions are horrible, basically repackaged GOP talking points, and, hate to be uncivil, some of them are deeply stupid and ignorant.

    IMHO, of course.

  90. 90.

    FlyingToaster

    @Baud: Oddly enough, it sped up on the Right Coast… perhaps there’s a problem on your side of the Rockies…

    [ducks and runs]

  92. 92.

    Another Scott

    I just turned this on. A couple of quick reactions:

    1) I don’t like the guy with the purple tie. I muted it when he started talking about tremendous economic growth during an oil boom, and would Uncle Joe be willing to put hundreds of thousands of those workers out of work to fight climate change… I muted him and didn’t hear Joe’s answer.

    2) I just saw Amy and unmuted it and heard Amy’s answer about something, and again she talked about how great it is to live in the Mid West and how everyone is so mean to call it flyover country and so forth.

    (sigh)

    I agree the moving background is very distracting.

    I’m not seeing much of a reason to unmute this thing so far…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  96. 96.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @MomSense:

     I don’t know a single working class person who supports free college or M4All.  Those policies are things more affluent progressives think working class people want

    Thank you. I worry about people– candidate, activists, even commenters here– getting too caught up in proposals because they think they should be popular

  98. 98.

    WaterGirl

    For the previous debates, I mostly fast-forwarded to the people I can’t stand and listened to the remaining candidates.  Sadly, Kamala and Booker aren’t in, and sadly, many of the fast-forward people are still here.

  99. 99.

    Yarrow

    My friend's (black woman in Atlanta) impression of Dems:
    Biden — Understands "common people"
    Klobuchar — Relatable, authentic
    Bernie — Good intentions, BUT…
    Buttigieg — Doesn't seem authentic
    Warren — Like the message, but something unrelatable
    Yang — Like him. Relatable…
    — Charles M. Blow (@CharlesMBlow) December 20, 2019

  100. 100.

    lamh36

     

    This is interesting from Charles Blow
    Muh as I’m not a fan of Yang, I’ve heard enough from some folks who say the same that he’s likeable, it may explains why he’s able to still continually make the cut…we’ll see if it continues of course.

     

    Edited tweet already posted by Yarrow

  101. 101.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: But she brought it up when talking about flooding.

    Homeowners insurance doesn’t cover flooding.

    She’s being sloppy and should know better.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  102. 102.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    @Baud:  he hadn’t debated in 7 years (since the time he pulverized Ryan) and at his age it probably took longer to get back into shape.

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott:

    1) I don’t like the guy with the purple tie. I muted it when he started talking about tremendous economic growth during an oil boom, and would Uncle Joe be willing to put hundreds of thousands of those workers out of work to fight climate change… I muted him and didn’t hear Joe’s answer.

    Ima guess that was Tim Alberta, formerly of the National Review, Hotline and The National Journal, now at Politico.

  104. 104.

    RoonieRoo

    @MomSense: This is exactly my experience.  All the people I know that are not very online progressives hate all the options other than Biden.  He’s the only one they would vote for.  If it’s not Biden, they will vote Trump or stay home.  That is pretty much every person I know that isn’t dug into the online progressive world and accounts for the majority of the people I encounter in my day.

    These are not MAGA people either.  They all think he’s a lunatic.

  106. 106.

    Mary G

    Biden had a pretty good answer about his epiphany he claims the Republicans are going to have. Then says if they don’t change we have to beat the pants off them in all elections.

    I thought the climate change section was good.

    Amy’s going after voter suppression and gerrymandering.

  109. 109.

    MomSense

    @Hob:

    Until recently I was making phone calls into Iowa just about every night.  I talk to a lot of people. Now I’m making calls for Gideon who is running against Sen. Collins.  Between my work where I interact with a lot of people and phonebanking I think I have  a pretty good understanding of public opinion.  Internal polling is very accurate.

  110. 110.

    Another Scott

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Charlie Pierce has a good blog post today saying that the 5th Circuit panel opinion today shows that the candidates arguing about M4All or M4ThoseWhoWantIt or whatever are just wasting their time.  Nothing is going to happen without getting a handle on the courts, so they should be talking in those terms.

    Makes sense.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  115. 115.

    Mary G

    Sen. Sanders: "First, I want to go back to climate change…""Senator, with all due respect, this question is about race. Can you get back to the question at hand?"HOLY SHIT.#DemDebate— Charlotte Clymer?️‍? (@cmclymer) December 20, 2019

    [Reader, he did not listen.]

  117. 117.

    Betty Cracker

    @Mary G: Yep, Biden’s new talking point on working with Republicans is a huge improvement.

    Buttigieg was good on the US being a laughingstock thanks to Trump.

  119. 119.

    japa21

    Not watching mainly because whenever there is a chance I might see Bernie, I avoid it. That being said, glad to see Amy is doing well and apparently so is Biden. Those are my top two candidates right now.

  120. 120.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott:

    Nothing is going to happen without getting a handle on the courts, so they should be talking in those terms.

    I haven’t really seen the broad Left, from the “New Democrat/Third Way” types to the Naderites and Berniecrats, excited (enough) about the courts since ’92. It’s a constant bafflement to me. Here’s hoping the message will finally sink in.

  121. 121.

    joel hanes

    @RoonieRoo:

    All the people I know that are not very online progressives hate all the options other than Biden.

    Our “mainstream” media and the right-wing propaganda channels have done their work well.

  132. 132.

    schrodingers_cat

    BTW Karnataka (state where Banglore, Bengluru is) has become one of the worst ra-ra Hindutva states. The police shot at protestors in Mangalore, two people died in the anti CAA protests today that took place all over India. I am wondering whether we as American consumers can bring some pressure on them to behave.

  133. 133.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: I am starting to resign myself to the idea that it might be Biden, and I console myself with the hope that he will choose someone like Stacey Abrams as VP.

  136. 136.

    Yarrow

    @schrodingers_cat:  Pretty much agree with you except there’s a huge drop after Warren.

    1. Amy K

    2. Biden

    3. Warren

    HUGE CHASM

    946. Pete B

    1,008. Bernie

    Steyer and Yang can go home.

  137. 137.

    tobie

    I’m really impressed with Amy tonight. I like how she’s able to go back and forth between big issues like climate change and more immediate issues like home owners insurance.

    One thing I’ll say: painful as these debates have been, it’s made the candidates stronger with the exception of Bernie who’s the same as he ever was.

  138. 138.

    Butter Emails

    @RoonieRoo: 
    I see. I see. They loathe Trump, but he’s totally number 2 because there’s something wrong with all these other Democrats.

  139. 139.

    sab

    I am watching the debate filtered by moderator, so I am not bothering to watch Judy or the guy in the purple tie. Yamiche Alcindor is very good. I really miss Gwen Ifill.

  140. 140.

    Yarrow

    @WaterGirl:  I like Biden and Kamala Harris. They both have sort of happy demeanors and I think two people like that would be such a huge relief after Trump and Pence.

  141. 141.

    lamh36

    @PatrickSvitek28m28 minutes ago

    More

    Patrick Svitek Retweeted Patrick Svitek

    Buttigieg’s line about middle class/poor did sound a lot like Castro’s riff on that, which I believe he first used at L&J dinner >

    @PatrickSvitek
    Follow Follow @PatrickSvitek
    MorePatrick Svitek Retweeted Patrick Svitek
    [email protected], cont’d.: “We’re great at talking about the middle class” — and it’s important and I’ll fight for it — “but we also need to fight for the poor” and those suffering most. #LJ19

    Imitation is the greatest form of flattery they say…Imagine if Castro was on the debate stage to say it himself…

  145. 145.

    WaterGirl

    Why can’t the moderators and the candidates learn to correctly say the names of all the candidates?  It’s either careless, clueless or disrespectful, and none of those is a good look.

  147. 147.

    Feathers

    Just got home from Star Wars. After reading the thread, I’m not going to turn on the debate. Thanks to Major Major Major Major for the heads up last night that it was not well reviewed. I went in thinking that the suck would be strong with this one and ended up having an enjoyable time.* Going with a crowd of youngsters was the right call. The kids on either side of us were wide eyed and astonished through much of the film. The kiss at the end got groans and cheers in equal measure. Applause at the end. I really like Rey. I may actually go back now and finally watch films 2 and 3 of the prequels now that there is closure. I’m staying with my sister over Christmas and assume she has Disney Plus.

    Anyway, the political philosophy of this one is interesting. Looking forward to a spoilers thread to discuss.

    * JJ Abrams (and Kathleen Kennedy) have some answering to do. They made some decisions which seem to be complete grovelling before the folks who hated TLJ. They also threw Rian Johnson under the bus, but he made what is by far the best film in this trilogy. Anyway, unless you are going to see this one to see it all through, Knives Out is a much better night at the cinema.

  149. 149.

    japa21

    @tobie: I get the feeling that Amy’s whole strategy has been to tread water until the field narrowed more. By doing so she gives herself more room to shine when the spotlight is on and she is taking advantage of it.

  151. 151.

    Yarrow

    @WaterGirl:  Yeah, Bernie can drop to the 5,000’s. I only put him out of the “please go away” group because he is a sitting Senator and at least that makes it seem like there’s some reason for him to be there.

  152. 152.

    Mary G

    I know I’m a nerd, but I’m enjoying this one a lot. No healthcare at all yet. Some excellent topics, like China and foreign policy in general. No interrupting, attacking, or shouting over each other. A few respectful disagreements. Biden is being very clear and not rambling.

  155. 155.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I’ve got a lot of problems with Biden’s past votes and rhetoric, but I think he’ll be as good (from our point of view) a President as the political landscape, from the composition of Congress to the economy, allows. And if he can grip and grin and “c’mon, man!’ his way through next year (kinda like Reagan did), I think he’s the most likely to have coat tails.

    The day after Bernie gets the nomination is the day I start looking into Irish citizenship, cause that’s the trumpocalypse.

  158. 158.

    Yarrow

    @lamh36:  I just can’t get behind Castro. I’ve met the guy. He ticks all the boxes but kind of left me cold when I met him. He just doesn’t seem to have the depth I’d like to see in a presidential candidate. I prefer his brother Joaquin if I have to pick a Castro.

  164. 164.

    Marcopolo

    Okay. So once again I am pretty much hating the way the questioners are asking & framing questions. Generally, all of them are employing Republican framing & a lot of the questions just don’t seem to me to address issues the way an everyday voters approach them. This is, yes, generalizing but I would love to go back to the days of the League of Women’s Voters running these things.

    In terms of actual candidates, agree Klobuchar is doing well. Also the way Yang thinks about many of the questions is appealing (with the caveat there is no way in hell I’d vote for him). Would love to see how he would do as a mayor or governor though. Biden is doing okay. Warren is doing okay but her focus on corruption in DC (which I know is her thing) just doesn’t work all the time. Steyer comes across as someone I don’t trust. Sanders is who he is—at least he hasn’t knocked the D party tonight :). Buttigieg is okay but also isn’t hitting anything beyond the infield tonight. So kind of meh on all of it.

    Tim Alberta can go fuck himself.

  167. 167.

    Betty Cracker

    God, please not Sanders vs Trump. Two old men screaming at each other for months. Shoot me now.

  171. 171.

    Yarrow

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:  Yeah, there’s just something that doesn’t quite add up. I can’t put my finger on it. I like his brother Joaquin better.

    Like Edwards I like all the things he says but something isn’t quite right.

  173. 173.

    Marcopolo

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: As an Edwards supporter—at least at the start—in ‘08 (yeah I cringe writing that) I don’t get that from Castro.  Actually don’t get that from anyone on the stage tonight (maybe Steyer by it is obvious he’s an opportunist).

  174. 174.

    NotMax

    Warren scores a bullseye, dead center.

    “Senator Warren, you would be the oldest president ever elected if you win”

    Warren jumps in: “I would also be the youngest woman ever elected president.”

  175. 175.

    WaterGirl

    @lamh36: Is Yarmiche a woman, wearing white?  That’s who nailed Bernie with the “the question is about race, asshole” comment.

    *That might not have been an exact quote.

  178. 178.

    lamh36

    Bye bernie!

    Bernie Sanders say, interrupting, in response to the age question? “And I’m white, too!” and then he turned red!

  180. 180.

    Josie

    @Yarrow: 
    I have the same impression. Joaquin just seems to be more comfortable in his own skin. I have watched them for several years and this has always been my view. They are both super smart and hard working, but Julian is probably more buttoned up and not capable of a relaxed presentation.

  183. 183.

    AnotherBruce

    I’m getting a very weird vibe by following this thread. Something is missing in this field of candidates. They lack the strength to take on Trump. But there is one candidate that can fill the void of this lackadaisical field. I speak of one candidate who understands Trump. Who lives in Trump’s head. She’s rested, but not tanned, and capable of leading the nation. Come back Hillary, come back. Assume your rightful place in the now befouled Oval office. Come back Hillary, an anxious nation waits for you.

  186. 186.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: 

    Loved that.

    Buttigieg, OTOH, is just horrible. Even in the broken glass scenario, given tonight’s performance, I’d have to swallow hard before casting a vote for him. What a huge disappointment from his early promise.

  191. 191.

    lamh36

    Pete vs Liz…I’m just sitting here eating my popcorn…LITERALLY. I’ve got a bowl of popcorn right next to me…LOL

    [email protected]: “Billionaires in wine caves should not pick the next president of the United States.” #DemDebate

    Pete: “I’m the only one on the stage who is not a millionaire or billionaire. You should not issue purity tests that you yourself cannot pass.” #DemDebate

  195. 195.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Yarrow:  Yes, he is. It’s the first moment of nastiness on the stage. I didn’t hear Warren’s comment as targeted at him. Did I miss something? Why did he react so strenuously?

  198. 198.

    NotMax

    @mrmoshpotato

    If it’s the kind of series that tickles your TV tastebuds, one episode in the new third season of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel eviscerates Phyllis Schlafly.

  200. 200.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @lamh36:

    Pete: “I’m the only one on the stage who is not a millionaire or billionaire. You should not issue purity tests that you yourself cannot pass.” #DemDebate

    Not quite in a league with Warren’s line, but I kinda like it.

  201. 201.

    lamh36

    @ElieNYC 3m3 minutes ago

    More

    Okay… Amy Klobuchar WON that exchange between Pete and Warren. She took the whole debate about campaign financing, and turned it into a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. Win Win Win.

  202. 202.

    Marcopolo

    I actually welcome the kind of back & forth btwn Warren & Buttigieg (though I’m a political junkie unlike most & I don’t think it plays out well for either of them). I want to hear their thinking. It is an important issue. And it gave Klobuchar a chance to hit it out of the park with the Citizens United answer.

    Btw, Yang is also having a good night (he’s funny, smart, observant) though I don’t necessarily go down the road on the UBI thing.

  206. 206.

    Yarrow

    How does Sanders have supporters? Do people like being yelled at about the same thing over and over again?

  207. 207.

    Betty Cracker

    My daughter is not at all a Yang fan, but she observed that Yang answered the female leader question like a secure man in stark contrast to Bernie’s defensive answer. Smart kid.

  208. 208.

    Marcopolo

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, well when Warren was Buttigieg’s age She wasn’t a millionaire either.  Nor Sanders.  Or maybe anyone on the stage.  Not sure about Steyer.   I find that a disingenuous response.

  209. 209.

    tobie

    Yang is such a one trick pony. Had nothing to say about immigration. I really miss Beto in this discussion. He was the force behind closing Tornillo and his immigration plan was so good.

  210. 210.

    Butter Emails

    turned it into a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United. Win Win Win.

    Wait. I thought M4A was unrealistic. We cheering on unicorns now?

  220. 220.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Yep.  As I said earlier, the site will be down tonight for up to an hour between midnight and 6pm for more maintenance.

  224. 224.

    dmsilev

    Sanders believes in the concept of universality.

    SU(2) or U(1)?

    (this will, I fervently hope, be by far the nerdiest pseudo-joke of the month)

  232. 232.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    From Wonkette

    Yang: Women should not have to shake the money tree in the wine cave.

    I googled “wine cave,” thinking it must be something different than I thought it was, but it wasn’t. I have questions.

  234. 234.

    lamh36

    @Omnes Omnibus: 

    I hear that Amy K has been on a roll all night, and the last exchange with Pete, she basically forced fed him his lunch!

    @mariashriver
    35s35 seconds ago
    More
    Klobucher makes the case for Washington experience against @PeteButtigieg… goes after him aggressively, and says: “We should have someone at the top of the ticket who has actually won. #DemDebateLMU

    someone who “actually won.” Oof…damn Amy!

  235. 235.

    WaterGirl

    The moderator in white does not like Bernie.  You can hear it in her voice when she addresses him.  I’m not sure that’s professional, but at the same time I am glad to see it.

  236. 236.

    Marcopolo

    Comments getting eaten big time. Calling it blog quits for the time being. Pleasure hanging out with y’all.

  237. 237.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Yes, I believe we may have that one licked.  Have been waiting for confirmation before saying anything about it.

  238. 238.

    Yarrow

    I’ve really been enjoying this debate. Maybe all the practice in the previous debates has helped. Or the smaller group.

    Does Biden seem to be getting less time this debate? Feels a bit MIA.

  243. 243.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Daniel W. Drezner @ dandrezner
    10m10 minutes ago
    You can see Klobuchar wishing she could treat Buttigieg like one of her congressional staffers.

    I’ll admit, I laughed.

  245. 245.

    lamh36

    @CharlesPPierce

    More

    I am interested in the fact that Mayor Pete is mute when Bernie and Biden attack but goes into TED talk mode against the ladies.

    8:45 PM – 19 Dec 2019

  252. 252.

    sab

    @tobie: Mayor Pete never had a chance of winning. I thought he was just running to audition for a job in DC, but he has been kind of of nasty tonight. I would be surprised if anyone wanted him in their administration.

    He was never my first, but I don’t much like him anymore.

    Amy, on the other hand, has been really impressive.

  253. 253.

    James E Powell

    Sounds like we’ve settled on a Biden/Klobuchar ticket. Let’s cancel the primaries and get to work registering voters.

    Mostly kidding.

  256. 256.

    Baud

    I wish a moderator would just ask Bernie to give his standard speech on a topic. It would be more honest.

  257. 257.

    Betty Cracker

    Klobuchar is owning the center lane tonight. If that’s the lane we have to take, I hope she keeps right on owning it.

  258. 258.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @James E Powell: The Amy Klobuchar I’m hearing and reading about tonight might make a better foil for Moscow Mitch than… others.

    (Though I do love Schumer asking trump and The Beast what they’re so afraid of. The question all Dems should be asking every time they get in front of a camera)

  262. 262.

    Yarrow

    Re: the Biden/Afghanistan thing:

    It's true Biden argued for years for a smaller, counterterrorism force in Afghanistan and lost that internal Obama administration battle.— Josh Rogin (@joshrogin) December 20, 2019

  265. 265.

    Mary G

    Oh Dog, I spoke too soon. Now Biden and Bernie are shouting about Medicare for All

    Total gabble shut down by Amy K. I am impressed.

  266. 266.

    Kent

    Biden is leading in the national polls, but not Iowa where oddly Mayo Pete is leading. I’m guessing that Iowa is still wide open and this debate has to be helping Klobuchar in Iowa. Has to be. I’m sensing some shake ups in this race before we are all said and done.

    My wife is Hispanic and only paying 1/2 attention to this debate. But she is really shining to Klobuchar. Not so much Warren. She also is Yang-curious.

  272. 272.

    Ohio Mom

    Just arriving here. I wish Warren could relax and crack a few jokes. She is too desperate.

    I get that she believes in her message — I believe in it too.

    But I think most voters want to see a little swagger in their potential president.

  273. 273.

    Gin & Tonic

    @sab:  I’m about 25% listening, but I’ll agree there. I’m liking Klobuchar and getting pretty annoyed with Buttigieg.

    And Wilmer needs to go home and learn a new speech if he’s going to stay in.

  275. 275.

    Yarrow

    @Ohio Mom:

    I wish Warren could relax and crack a few jokes. She is too desperate.

    Agreed. She seems desperate, like she feels things slipping away and wants to grab onto it.

  282. 282.

    Yarrow

    Will say that Yang’s reaction to being called on first was funny and felt real. I see why some people like him.

  286. 286.

    Aleta

    How about:  Is there a candidate who you believe should have been here tonight, who didn’t qualify?  In what way would you change the Dem debates?

  287. 287.

    sab

    @Ohio Mom: I am all in Warren. Tonight not so good for her. I am actually okay with that. I thinks she is an effective Senator and I would be happy if she stayed there.

    Klobuchar is a very good feisty fighter. Fierce but midwestern nice. I am impressed.

  290. 290.

    WaterGirl

    Holy shit, look how red Bernie’s hands are.  He looks as red as he did shortly before his heart attack.  Yikes.  Is it just me or do his hands look like they have been painted red?

  292. 292.

    rp

    PB’s millionaires and billionaires line was incredibly stupid because there’s a huge fucking difference between the two. I’m almost a millionaire if I add together my 401k and the equity in my house, but I’m far from rich. Equating steyer (and Bloomberg and trump) with the other candidates is ludicrous.

  294. 294.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @sab: I agree that EW didn’t have the best night. Not disastrous, but not winsome either. She acknowledged she can run hot in response to injustice. I think the intensity that drives her doesn’t translate well on television.

  296. 296.

    Betty Cracker

    @sab: Also a Warren fan, and I agree this wasn’t a great night for her — and she needed a great night. Klobuchar was outstanding.

  298. 298.

    Mary G

    I hate that both women felt they had to apologize for getting heated or rude in the mushy question section.

  301. 301.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Mary G: Same here. Not a good look that the only people apologizing (unnecessarily IMO) were women.

    For those among us who are women, note the number of times a day you say “sorry” in all kinds of situations…and stop it. :)

  302. 302.

    Ohio Mom

    @Betty Cracker: No, it’s not about smiling, it’s about looking  confident and hopeful, projecting an “I’ve got this” feeling. I remember Warren being that way but as the campaign has progressed, she’s gotten more and more defensive. She’s always been my favorite and I’m worried that she’s blowing it.

  303. 303.

    lamh36

    Wait…is this EXACTLY what Amy K said?

    Cause if so…DAMN Amy! I see why Pete might need a drink of water.

    Buttigieg: “You want to talk about building a coalition, try winning with 80% of the vote as a gay dude in Mike Pence’s Indiana.”

    Klobuchar: “You didn’t win in Indiana. You tried and you lost by 20 points.” #DemDebate

  307. 307.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Baud:

    Question about transgender issues leads to speech on M4A.  Classic Bernie. 

    The only problem we have in this country is not having Medicare for All! *shakes finger in your face like it’s made of Jello

  308. 308.

    sab

    @mrmoshpotato: I am on medicare, and I pay all kinds of premiums: medicare premium, supplemental premium, plan d premium.

    Bernie gets his insurance through his employer (Congress) so he doesn’t know what the duck he is talking about. Plus I am guessing that Jane handles all the finances, so he still doesn’t know what the duck he was talking about.

  309. 309.

    Original Lee

    @MomSense: M4All needs to include significant fixes to how coverage decisions are made if it is to attract support from younger voters. My kids and I have gotten a huge education in how easy it is to get screwed by the system over the last few years, just watching our elders and the elders of friends deal with it. Most recent case in point is my grandmother, who can’t even stand up without a gait belt and a lot of assistance and is being told Medicare thinks she’d do just fine at home alone with stair lift chair so they won’t pay for any more skilled nursing care. (A stair lift generally takes 2-3 weeks after the company takes measurements to install where she lives, and they want her to go home tomorrow.)

    Private insurance is a major pain in the butt, but Medicare is its own special hell.

  310. 310.

    Ohio Mom

    @sab:

     

    @sab: i knew Medicare wasn’t free but now that I’m gearing up for my 65th birthday next spring, I’m aghast at how complicated it is.

    I’d thought that the best thing was going to be being free of fears about beong penalized for pre-existing conditions but it turns out there are land mines about them sprinkled through the supplemental parts (Advantage and Gap plans).

    Ohio Son has Medicaid, that’s what I would like a lot more than Medicare. It’s free and uncomplicated.

  311. 311.

    Another Scott

    I was away for a while, but was listening on the radio.

    I really, really liked Joe’s answer about what to do about Afghanistan.  I have no idea if he really was against it from the beginning, but he did make a decent case (especially given the time constraints).

    Vietnam should have taught us that the days of going in and overthrowing a government and imposing our will on a population that does not want to be occupied, well those days of successfully doing that are long, long gone.   Have a few Special Forces and Advisors there (or just over the horizon), for extraordinarily important missions in our national interest.  But don’t try to stand up a government and a military in a leading roll.  (Support regional systems to do so if there’s a consensus about it, but don’t be the leaders.)  But getting into the perpetual “oh they’re making progress, they just need a little more time” and “oh, what about all the blood and treasure we’ve spent – we can’t leave now” and “oh, if we tell them we’re leaving then the bad guys will just wait us out” and all the rest are not a reason to stay.

    Apparently the recent story on the “Afghanistan Papers” shows that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam and need to relearn them.

    It sucks that there’s violence in the world and that monsters can take over functioning governments or cause havoc in places where governments are weak.  It really does suck and it’s horrible.  But that does not mean that it’s in the national interest of the United States to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives to try to do the impossible – we cannot impose our will on others.  We can only help them to help themselves – we cannot create a peaceful regime if the population cannot or will not do most of the work on their own.

    The US has the technology to break stuff all over the world.  We can make the rubble bounce in all sorts of terrible ways.  But we do not have the capabilities to create peaceful nations. Our leaders need to learn that and teach the rest of us that.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  313. 313.

    TCS

    Would like to see a debate between Klobuchar and Warren. Harris could moderate. Biden & Sanders could watch and learn something.

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