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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Saturday Night Horrorshow Open Thread: YOUUUKRANE!!!!

Saturday Night Horrorshow Open Thread: YOUUUKRANE!!!!

by Anne Laurie|  December 28, 201910:38 pm| 135 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Grifters Gonna Grift, Impeachment Inquiry, Open Threads, Trump Crime Cartel, All Too Normal, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

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What Rudy Giuliani’s version of reality looks like from Ukraine https://t.co/brQUhHTSgY

— toomas hendrik ilves (@IlvesToomas) December 27, 2019

Not much joy in sercon dissection of the latest foreign policy revelations at this hour on a holiday weekend, but: This man is still, theoretically, the Oval Office Occupant’s personal lawyer.

Earlier this month, Rudolph W. Giuliani made an unexpected trip to Ukraine, accompanied by a TV crew from One America News Network (OAN), a little-known American channel to the right of Fox News. Giuliani’s mission was to exonerate his client, President Trump, of the charge in the articles of impeachment that he tried to bribe Ukrainian officials into investigating Joe Biden ahead of the 2020 election, and to dig up incriminating information on Biden and his son Hunter.

The documentary of that trip has now been released, and it tells a truly fantastic tale, as presented by OAN correspondent Chanel Rion. As she and Giuliani tried to uncover the truth, Rion claimed, 1,000 Ukrainian troops were deployed in Kyiv as part of an effort to find them. Once they were found, they raced to the airport, where Jewish Ukrainian oligarch Viktor Pinchuk and Jewish businessman and philanthropist George Soros were waiting for them with “human Dobermans in little black Mercedes.”

For journalists like me who have lived and worked in Ukraine for years, these claims were comical. Kyiv’s main international airport is about as much of a hub for intrigue as La Guardia. There is no evidence of a mobilization of Ukrainian troops in Kyiv while Giuliani and Co. were there. Soros does not live in Ukraine and hasn’t visited since 2016, and no one else has reported Pinchuk lurking at the airport. (Rion later tried to hedge her claim about Pinchuk and Soros, if only halfheartedly.)…

On cable news shows and Twitter, Giuliani has been echoing the same outlandish claims made by the documentary. He stated that one former Ukrainian prosecutor they spoke to who had proof of a Biden conspiracy had been poisoned with mercury, died twice and been revived. With Trump putting on pressure, the Senate Judiciary Committee has agreed to hear Giuliani and his evidence. In short, Giuliani’s claims about information coming from Ukraine look like they are going to become ammunition for Trump’s eventual impeachment trial in the Senate…

Man who wrote the tweet at the top is a former president of Estonia, where they don’t have our (literally) insular privilege to treat all this as a wacky TV serial.

perhaps just a bit senile in his dotage

— toomas hendrik ilves (@IlvesToomas) December 27, 2019

“Giuliani offered no proof of his allegations and he’s sought to blame on Soros in previous media appearances.” pic.twitter.com/057z1jbRBs

— Molly Jong-Fast (@MollyJongFast) December 23, 2019

Also, Rudy has a new “communications director”:

Here is Rudy's director of communications and traveling companion. Recalls Maria Butina.
Christianné Allen is the 20-year-old Director of Communications for Rudy Giuliani. She has not yet graduated from college. pic.twitter.com/BgqhLkSWXm

— GrassRootsGuy (@GrassRootsGuy) December 21, 2019


Additional nightmare fuel, via Politico: The mystery of Rudy Giuliani’s spokeswoman. Over the river and off the map!

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Previous Post: « Bret Stephens Was Never a Bedbug, Just an Overprivileged, Mediocre Asshole
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Reader Interactions

135Comments

  1. 1.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 28, 2019 at 10:49 pm

    One can only wildly speculate what qualifications this 20 year old woman has to be a “communications director”.

  2. 2.

    My Side of Town

    December 28, 2019 at 10:50 pm

    So I will post my most recent comment on facebook:

    Have Evangelicals become the religion of corruption, indecency, and immorality after iTrump
    Their women will be whores, their men will be pimps, their children will be disciples of Lucifer. Their religion will be shunned. Their souls will reside in the same hell as iTrump and his family of thieves.

    Edit or delete this

  3. 3.

    Anne Laurie

    December 28, 2019 at 10:51 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: To be fair(er than she probably deserves), she’s not charging Rudy for her services.

    Parse that as you will!

  4. 4.

    CaseyL

    December 28, 2019 at 10:52 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:  According to the Politico article, she lies like she breathes, is relentlessly self-promoting, and constantly showing up at important events whether invited or not.

    So, no, Trumpists are not dying off. New ones pop up all the time. If humanity was an Order, in taxonomy terms, then the fastest-growing Family in that Order is parasites.

  5. 5.

    ThresherK

    December 28, 2019 at 10:56 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Knowing Rudy, she may be wife number n+1.

  6. 6.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    December 28, 2019 at 10:56 pm

    Geaux Tigers

  7. 7.

    debbie

    December 28, 2019 at 10:58 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    You can’t tell by how she holds that weapon?

  8. 8.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 28, 2019 at 10:59 pm

    @CaseyL: “Shows up at important events whether she’s invited or not”.

    That’s ripped directly from Donald’s playbook!

  9. 9.

    Roger Moore

    December 28, 2019 at 11:02 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    One can only wildly speculate what qualifications this 20 year old woman has to be a “communications director”.

    It’s natural to suspect her primary qualification is as “traveling companion”, and the communications director job is just an excuse to put her on payroll.  It is always possible that she really was hired as communications director, and Giuliani just can’t afford to hire anyone with a more complete resume.

  10. 10.

    tomtofa

    December 28, 2019 at 11:02 pm

    The thread won’t really get going until the discussion of whether she’s hotter than Bari Weiss.

  11. 11.

    raven

    December 28, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    @debbie:

     

    @Villago Delenda Est: Something about 50 yards of garden hose?

  12. 12.

    raven

    December 28, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    @tomtofa: There is no discussion of that.

  13. 13.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:04 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Is she steaming his pants? Would it be irresponsible to ask? It would be irresponsible not to!

  14. 14.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:05 pm

    @My Side of Town: While I appreciate the emotion, perhaps you might want to tone it down a notch or twenty.

  15. 15.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 28, 2019 at 11:06 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: A strong stomach?

  16. 16.

    raven

    December 28, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: A flat head and she can breathe through her ears?

  17. 17.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 28, 2019 at 11:08 pm

    @My Side of Town: They have made their allegiance to Mammon and Moloch clear.  All that remains is for actual Christians to denounce them as apostates.

  18. 18.

    feebog

    December 28, 2019 at 11:10 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    It’s natural to suspect her primary qualification is as “traveling companion”, and the communications director job is just an excuse to put her on payroll. It is always possible that she really was hired as communications director, and Giuliani just can’t afford to hire anyone with a more complete resume.

    I’m beginning to understand why Rudy is walking around with his fly open and drooling on his sweater.

  19. 19.

    Shalimar

    December 28, 2019 at 11:12 pm

    My speculation is he likes looking at her.  If she let him get any further than that, she would be getting paid.

  20. 20.

    Roger Moore

    December 28, 2019 at 11:13 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    A strong stomach?

    An ability to lie convincingly enough to fool other Republicans.  That appears to be the primary qualification to advance in the party these days.

  21. 21.

    The Dangerman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:15 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    An ability to lie convincingly enough to fool other Republicans.

    Faint praise.

    ETA: I’m sure being “prone” to, um, lie helps her.

  22. 22.

    NotMax

    December 28, 2019 at 11:16 pm

    @Anne Laurie

    As Groucho so pointedly put it, “I’d like to introduce you to my euphemism.”

    :)

  23. 23.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:20 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I think the larger issue, and I had this discussion with a friend the other day because he was in the same doctoral cohort as that Christian Post editor who so publicly quit last week (I was two cohorts ahead of them), is that what that guy doesn’t understand, and what he’s doing in so publicly quitting and how he’s gone about doing so, is that Evangelicalism, and specifically white Evangelicalism, across all the sects is religion as performance, not practice. Evangelicals perform their religion, publicly perform piety, as the practice of their religion because they think this is how they witness the gospels to others. And they mistake this very public performance for actual, personal, and private practice of the actual religion and its tenets. Evangelicalism has very little theology compared to other Christian denominations and sects. It is almost completely dogmatic. And what theology they have, such as their bioethics, is borrowed and not clearly understood because the emphasis on scriptural hyper-literalism privileges dogma and dogmatism over the nuance of theology.

    When this is combined by the fact that white Evangelicalism has always had a heavy component of its leaders scamming and fleecing and grifting their congregants, the affinity for the President and how he behaves, acts, and conducts business becomes much clearer. From the point of view of the adherents, the connection in in the public performance of his identity. For the leadership it is the scaling, fleecing, and grifting through this public performance.

  24. 24.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 28, 2019 at 11:24 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Performance is pretty much totally at odds with Matthew 6:5.

  25. 25.

    West of the Rockies

    December 28, 2019 at 11:26 pm

    @Shalimar:

    God, one hopes.  Rudy is a gruesome toad.

  26. 26.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 28, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    @Anne Laurie: Trying to see how many people you can make gag?

  27. 27.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 28, 2019 at 11:28 pm

    @West of the Rockies: What have gruesome toads ever done to you?

  28. 28.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:29 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I am quite aware. I tried explaining that to the now former editor once in grad school. He didn’t get my point. He grew up in one of the Evangelical sects. If I’m recalling correctly his father is a minister. He’s smart, he means well, I don’t think he has a mean bone in his body, but he’s not very self aware. Nor is he introspective. Also, and I say this as someone who actually respects and appreciates what he has done and was once the strategic communication advisor, among my other duties, for an Army program, he needs serious coaching before going on CNN again. He was terrible.

  29. 29.

    NotMax

    December 28, 2019 at 11:32 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman
    Flash from the past (and a perhaps unexpected side of the fence):

    “Our problem is with these neoconservatives, the radical right, the religious extremists whose interpretation is very narrow, and who want to destroy everyone who doesn’t agree with them. I see them as betrayers of the fundamental principles of conservatism. A lot of so-called conservatives don’t know what the word means.”
      – Barry Goldwater

  30. 30.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    Shocking! Russian spies involved in Catalonia referendum. Who would have thought? To date Russia has ran operations in over 35 countries to attempt to sow chaos/assist in installing Kremlin friendly politicians who in return will weaken post WW2 allianceshttps://t.co/noEvlFOhE2— Olga Lautman (@olgaNYC1211) December 28, 2019

    Kyiv Court of Appeal just released 5 murderers who were accused of killing 48 Maidan protesters. Tomorrow is the prisoner exchange and Russia has requested them on the list. Horrific— Olga Lautman (@olgaNYC1211) December 28, 2019

  31. 31.

    Kent

    December 28, 2019 at 11:34 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Very well said.  I don’t think I’ve seen the connection described quite so concisely before. And, of course the affinity between grifters is obvious.

  32. 32.

    Roger Moore

    December 28, 2019 at 11:35 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Performance is pretty much totally at odds with Matthew 6:5.

    Sure, and the Prosperity Gospel is totally at odds with everything that Jesus taught.  This ties in to Adam’s point about Evangelicalism going for dogmatism over theology.  For all they talk about Biblical literalism and the importance of reading the Bible, they mostly depend on other people to interpret it for them, and those people are free to come up with the most strained interpretations to justify what they already believe.

  33. 33.

    Raoul

    December 28, 2019 at 11:36 pm

    Driving up the Avenue of the Saints today (the linkage of St Louis and St Paul, but we took it to Minneapolis, as we’re philistines), I saw just beyond the shoulder in some rural eastern Iowa area (I think perhaps north of Waterloo), a landowner had put up a very tall cross, and on it mounted a sign saying:

    Protect Our

    Heritage

    I remarked to the BF that I didn’t really think this sign was about their Christian heritage, but rather their white, rural, formerly more blatantly KKK heritage. (OK, I had to look that last part up after arriving home. And ugh, what a drive. 6 hours of fog, followed by 3 hours of rain with temps falling from 39 to 33 deg. No ice, thankfully, and made it home in one piece!)

  34. 34.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:36 pm

    Trump shares claim he is 'heaven sent' and suggests Obama 'kicked Jesus out' of US https://t.co/JsyKOxfD3s— Andreas Umland (@UmlandAndreas) December 28, 2019

  35. 35.

    WaterGirl

    December 28, 2019 at 11:37 pm

    YOUUUKRANE!!!!

    Somehow I heard that to the tune of the song “Roxanne!”.

  36. 36.

    Amir Khalid

    December 28, 2019 at 11:37 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    That job title could be a cover for her actual function: candidate for future wife, which is what the “travelling companion” part suggests to me.

  37. 37.

    different-church-lady

    December 28, 2019 at 11:39 pm

    @My Side of Town: Become?

  38. 38.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:39 pm

    @NotMax: I have a graphic of that quote. Goldwater was not a stupid man. Nor was he an unobservant one.

  39. 39.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 28, 2019 at 11:40 pm

    @WaterGirl: This version?

  40. 40.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:40 pm

    OCCRP has named Maltese Prime Minister Joseph Muscat the OCCRP 2019 Person of the Year in Organized Crime and Corruption. Other finalists were Donald J. Trump, Rudy Giuliani & Denis Christel Sassou Nguesso, son of the president of the DRC.https://t.co/dRe0hssOkW— Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) December 27, 2019

  41. 41.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:41 pm

    @Kent: Have you read Perlstein’s The Long Con?

    https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con

  42. 42.

    Ruckus

    December 28, 2019 at 11:43 pm

    I like her picture on the left that looks like she has her hands behind her head, as some are told to do when being arrested so they can easily be handcuffed from behind and one can always see the hands.

  43. 43.

    Roger Moore

    December 28, 2019 at 11:43 pm

    @Raoul:

    I remarked to the BF that I didn’t really think this sign was about their Christian heritage, but rather their white, rural, formerly more blatantly KKK heritage.

    I don’t think you can separate the two. Christianity has long been used to justify pre-existing cultural beliefs regardless of whether the correspond to what Jesus said.

  44. 44.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    December 28, 2019 at 11:44 pm

    @Anne Laurie: It’s almost like they’ve internalized Trump’s cheating of contractors. Why bother charging when you know you’ll never get paid anyway?  Save yourself the aggravation and humiliation and just say you’re working for free.

  45. 45.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:44 pm

    Rudy did a documentary with OAN that seemed to be targeted directly to Trump rather than any rational viewer. Big name stars like "Andrii Telizhenko, Michaelo Okhendovsky, Andrii Artemenko" provided tabloid quality proof to clear impeachment accusations. https://t.co/oKpN9qCz0o— Robert Young Pelton (@RYP__) December 28, 2019

  46. 46.

    NotMax

    December 28, 2019 at 11:46 pm

    @WaterGirl

    Appreciative you didn’t write “the Roxanne.”

    :)

  47. 47.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:48 pm

    @WaterGirl:

  48. 48.

    Roger Moore

    December 28, 2019 at 11:48 pm

    @Ruckus:

    I think the goal behind that pose is to push her upper arms back and thrust out her chest.

  49. 49.

    raven

    December 28, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    Well let’s see what ya got Justin.

  50. 50.

    NotMax

    December 28, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Entirely unrelated other than being unexpected, recently came across this from Douglas MacArthur:

    “Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.”

  51. 51.

    Kent

    December 28, 2019 at 11:50 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I recall reading it back in the day.  But it’s worth another read.  After Trump we tend to forget how horrible the other “mainstream” GOPers like Romney, and of course Bush were.  But it is one long thread going back to Reagan, or perhaps Goldwater.

  52. 52.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:51 pm

    @HalfAssedHomesteader:

    In the “New Meritocracy” this is an Internship. Attach yourself like a remora to someone “famous”, feed off the flotsam and “network” your way into the Griftopia.

    The money comes later.

  53. 53.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 28, 2019 at 11:52 pm

    @Raoul:Actually, I think that means “protect our hate” because “heritage, not hate” is on of the slogans of the neo-Confederates who hates them some darkies.

  54. 54.

    Jay

    December 28, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    NEW: I went to 'TRUMPSTOCK' in rural AZ for my latest story on white identity and the GOP. How white fears + conspiracy binds the base to POTUS, and how, for many Trump voters, his 2016 story starts w/ birtherism, not that escalator. I hope you'll read ithttps://t.co/mk9fmHkXo9— Steadman™ (@AsteadWesley) December 28, 2019

  55. 55.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 28, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    @WaterGirl: I want to share the lyrics that went through my head, but it’ll wreck the song for everyone.

    On a related note, Rocky Mountain Mike – Ukraine.

  56. 56.

    2liberal

    December 28, 2019 at 11:57 pm

    attn adam ….

     

    https://twitter.com/mfrost11/status/1211100377254203393

  57. 57.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:58 pm

    @NotMax: Also, not a stupid man. Not particular self aware though.

  58. 58.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 28, 2019 at 11:59 pm

    @Jay: I read that this morning. They seem nice.

  59. 59.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:00 am

    @2liberal: And that’s illegal because????

  60. 60.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:00 am

    @2liberal: It’s a hoax story. I already checked as it would have made a good Floriduh! Man & Woman post.

  61. 61.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:02 am

    @Adam L Silverman: I thought it was just old.  I remember seeing it before.

  62. 62.

    2liberal

    December 29, 2019 at 12:03 am

    @Adam L Silverman:   i just spotted, copied and pasted. I should have known better.

  63. 63.

    Roger Moore

    December 29, 2019 at 12:04 am

    @2liberal:

    It’s fake news; Snopes has an article showing it was originally from a joke web site.

  64. 64.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:09 am

    @mrmoshpotato: @2liberal: It is all too possible in Florida.

  65. 65.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 12:11 am

    @Adam L. Silverman
    Filling the void.

    A Florida man who accidentally shot himself in the leg while “playing cowboy” lied about the incident because he’s not supposed to own a gun, according to the Pasco County Sheriff’s Office. Source

    Walt Disney World employees who portray Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse and Donald Duck each filed police reports this month claiming they were inappropriately touched by tourists. Source

  66. 66.

    Jay

    December 29, 2019 at 12:15 am

    Germans say Trump is more dangerous to world peace than Kim Jong Un and Putin.This is literally how much the US has become an international embarrassment. https://t.co/rR8BPUP4B0— The Hummingbird ? (@SaysHummingbird) December 28, 2019

  67. 67.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:15 am

    @NotMax: The latter happens all the time. Also, the former.

  68. 68.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:17 am

    @Adam L Silverman: So true.  Any recent running-around-a-store-with-an-alligator stories we haven’t heard of in the other 49?  No way that didn’t happen just once. :)

  69. 69.

    Jay

    December 29, 2019 at 12:18 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    bbbbbbbut the FTFNYT with their Cletis Safaris says it’s all about the “economic anxiety”, not the “heritage”,……

  70. 70.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:19 am

    @NotMax: “Welcome to Disney World.  Please don’t molest the mascots.”

  71. 71.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:20 am

    @mrmoshpotato: That’s Wednesday here.

  72. 72.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:21 am

    @Jay: Let’s put these together – the economic anxiety of not being able to own black people as property anymore.

  73. 73.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 12:22 am

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Not Florida (by chance) – the trouble with Harry.

    :)

  74. 74.

    lgerard

    December 29, 2019 at 12:28 am

    @Jay:

    The video of trumpbot Mona Fishman “singing” her big hit Arresta Podesta at TRUMPFEST is certainly good for a laugh.

    No Randy Rainbow is she

  75. 75.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:29 am

    @NotMax: In Florida they would have stood their ground and terminated the robot vacuum with extreme prejudice.

  76. 76.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 12:30 am

    @NotMax: But not The Trouble with Harry

  77. 77.

    The Pale Scot

    December 29, 2019 at 12:31 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    specifically white Evangelicalism, across all the sects is religion as performance, not practice

    That has always offended me, the whole Jack Chick “if a serial murderer declares a certain long-haired Iron Age socialist is his “personal savior” (what ever that means) moments before he’s hung his slate is clean yada yada. The hippy specifically said that public demonstration is hypocrisy. None more illiterate than the Sola Scriptura crowd.

    To follow on the Jews don’t proselytize comments in the last thread. It seems to me that most religions don’t. Just the ones that were run by con artists. Paul, Constantine, that other guy were in it for the power and the mulla. The tenacity of the Hebrew faith was twisted into blind obedience useful to TPTB.  How else does a power dieting ascetic become a chubby with a gold fetish? Maybe all religions would, they just haven’t found the marketing strategy.

    How it was explained to me is that the Druze decided to keep it in the shade to avoid Sunni bigotry. They were handy to have around against the Crusaders, but once the barbarians were gone the Sunnis got down their favorite game “who’s the heretic?”

  78. 78.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 12:36 am

    @mtrmoshpotato

    The opportunity to put the Hitchcockian twist on the link was what prompted me to mention it at all.

    ;)

  79. 79.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 12:40 am

    @The Pale Scot:

    How else does a power dieting ascetic become a chubby with a gold fetish? 

    If you’re referring to Ho Ti the laughing Buddha, this is an example of religious syncretism. When Buddhism moved into China it absorbed the local deities as avatars of the historical Buddha. It is why you have the laughing Buddha, the Buddha of Compassion (Kwan Yin), the Buddha of War, etc, etc. These avatars, or boddhisatvas, were a bridge from the older traditions to the new ones.

    You see this in other religions, almost all secondary. For instance, the reason we have a dog breed named St. Bernard is because when the Christian missionary named Bernard got to that part of the Alps the locals worship the dog. So he got one. And associated himself and the religion he was teaching with the dog in an ultimately successful attempt to move the locals worship from the dog to Jesus through the Church.

  80. 80.

    HalfAssedHomesteader

    December 29, 2019 at 12:40 am

    @2liberal: No matter how tangential, it always involve an alligator. Why is that?

  81. 81.

    WaterGirl

    December 29, 2019 at 12:44 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: I had never seen that.  Too funny!

  82. 82.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 29, 2019 at 12:46 am

    I might that ONAN is a Trump propaganda channel, on the order of Pravda or Deutsche Beobachter.

  83. 83.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 12:48 am

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Have far less than a passing familiarity with religious iconography yet am pretty sure have never see a depiction of JC with a keg of brandy hanging from his neck.

    :)

  84. 84.

    WaterGirl

    December 29, 2019 at 12:49 am

    @mrmoshpotato: That was a good one!

  85. 85.

    Chetan Murthy

    December 29, 2019 at 12:49 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I might that ONAN is a Trump propaganda channel

    *giggle

  86. 86.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 12:53 am

    @Villago Delenda Est

    “Single handedly distorting the news since 2013.”

  87. 87.

    Duane

    December 29, 2019 at 12:55 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: “Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?” I just have to say it.

  88. 88.

    The Pale Scot

    December 29, 2019 at 12:58 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    You see this in other religions, almost all secondary.

    Meet the new boss.. Same as the old boss

  89. 89.

    mrmoshpotato

    December 29, 2019 at 1:00 am

    @NotMax: Hehe excellent.

  90. 90.

    joel hanes

    December 29, 2019 at 1:07 am

    removed; other people already said it better

  91. 91.

    2liberal

    December 29, 2019 at 1:08 am

    @HalfAssedHomesteader:  re:  always an alligator.  Maybe its florida signaling?

  92. 92.

    Anne Laurie

    December 29, 2019 at 1:32 am

    @Adam L Silverman: Evangelicals perform their religion, publicly perform piety, as the practice of their religion because they think this is how they witness the gospels to others. And they mistake this very public performance for actual, personal, and private practice of the actual religion and its tenets.

    Quoted for truth!

    And this clarifies a recent conversation for me, with a long-term acquaintance who grew up religious & working-class in the South.  He’s ‘matured’ into prosperous Episcopalianism, but he became extremely agitated during a discussion of religious symbols on public lands… because, he kept insisting, if he couldn’t proclaim his faith even in absentia, his religious freedom had been compromised!!!

    If ‘performance’ is the mainstream of one’s religious behavior, it would make more sense than my (unexpressed) religious conviction that public display of one’s faith is like public display of the bodily functions — you can’t always help sneezing (or worse) at a party, but making a point of calling attention to your momentary slip is just rude.   We all may have ’em, but not that many people wanna see yours at the bus stop or the drive-thru…

  93. 93.

    James E Powell

    December 29, 2019 at 1:34 am

    I’m settling in for a good night’s sleep after watching my beloved Buckeyes shoot themselves in the foot enough to lose to Clemson. Victory eluded us, but that’s no matter. Next year we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And one fine evening —-

    Now the question for tomorrow is, do I start watching The Witcher or 6 Underground?

  94. 94.

    Mary G

    December 29, 2019 at 1:40 am

    Five people stabbed in apparent anti-Semitic attack at a Hanukkah party tonight in a rabbi’s home in Monsey, NY. Possibly no fatalities. #Gun control now
    ETA:

    In November, a man was stabbed while walking to a Monsey synagogue. The man required surgery. It’s unknown if the person suspected in that stabbing has been arrested.

    Around New York City, police have gotten at least six reports this week — and eight since Dec. 13 — of attacks possibly propelled by anti-Jewish bias.

    I live in Monsey, NY. We are all terrified.

    — Eliyahu Fink (@efink) December 29, 2019

  95. 95.

    Martin

    December 29, 2019 at 1:41 am

    @Adam L Silverman: I thought it was a very interesting observation that conservatives choose their religion to match their politics, not the other way around, which is why cries of hypocrisy by the left doesn’t land – we have it backward.

    So that’s just part of the performance.

  96. 96.

    Bruuuuce

    December 29, 2019 at 1:49 am

    @Mary G: News is that gun sales in those communities are rising fast. That’s bad in whole lots of ways, from the usual (kids finding them or angry shooters) to the possibility of right-wing slander about “disloyal Jews preparing for revolution” and massive preemptive strikes that are officially sanctioned or looked the other way from.

     

    To compound the problem, now the Guardian Angels have announced that they’re going to patrol Jewish neighborhoods. Just what we need, is a group that wants to bash heads in an area already seeing too much violence.

    Do. Not. Like. (fsvo of that =”oy, sheeeeeit!”)

  97. 97.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 2:00 am

    @James E Powell

    Caveat observator that the latter is directed by Michael “Whaddaya mean there’s nothing left to blow up” Bay.

    ;)

  98. 98.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 2:04 am

    @Mary G: It could have been much, much worse. If this happened anywhere but New York, which has pretty strong firearms laws and regulations, the attacker would have more likely used a gun, even a handgun, not a knife. The fact that the attacker used a knife and not a gun is likely to make this, while bad, a less than lethal attack.

  99. 99.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 2:16 am

    @Bruuuuce:

    News is that gun sales in those communities are rising fast. That’s bad in whole lots of ways, from the usual (kids finding them or angry shooters) to the possibility of right-wing slander about “disloyal Jews preparing for revolution” and massive preemptive strikes that are officially sanctioned or looked the other way from.

    Gun sales are up across all ethnic and religious minorities, as well as the LGBTQ community. Given the amount of white supremacy, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, and nativism that has been mainstreamed over the past three years and given official top cover by the President and some of his most senior and notable aides and surrogates, I’m not sure anyone can tell a member of one or more of these groups that they shouldn’t consider arming themselves however they see fit for self defense purposes. I’d argue this includes appropriate training and storage. The one truth amid all the lies and spin and barbered history that the 2nd Amendment absolutists regularly tell is that gun control in the US has historically been done by the white Christian majority to disarm non-white and non-Christian minorities in order to make it easier to oppress them.

  100. 100.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 2:21 am

    @James E Powell

    If violence is not offputting to you, you might check out the Sundance TV series Hap and Leonard, available on Netflix (and also. IIRC, Prime).

    Although increasingly heavy-handed as the seasons progress, quite well cast and fetchingly enough filmed to stick with.

  101. 101.

    Bruuuuce

    December 29, 2019 at 2:25 am

    @Adam L Silverman:  Yes, all of what you say is true, including that members of minorities have reason to arm. Doesn’t make it less sad, especially as most won’t get the training and many won’t use proper storage, continuing to prove that shootings are directly proportional to the number of guns available.

    I’m just glad this isn’t happening during the hot, long, summer of a Presidential campaign that includes the wannabe-Fuhrer.

  102. 102.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 29, 2019 at 2:28 am

    @Bruuuuce: No arguments here.

  103. 103.

    Amir Khalid

    December 29, 2019 at 3:34 am

    @Bruuuuce:

    I hadn’t seen your nym for a while, and I was wondering if all was well. Glad to see you here.

  104. 104.

    sab

    December 29, 2019 at 3:34 am

    Late night  EST used to be crickets. Now it is 502 error.

  105. 105.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 3:36 am

    @sab

    Yeah, that was a particularly bad one.

  106. 106.

    Jay

    December 29, 2019 at 3:39 am

    @sab:

    funny thing is, when I went back to the front page and reloaded, it was fine, but when I was staying in the thread, nothing but 502’s in the 604.

  107. 107.

    sab

    December 29, 2019 at 3:44 am

    @Jay: 604 is Vancouver?

  108. 108.

    Amir Khalid

    December 29, 2019 at 3:47 am

    @sab:

    This is the new Balloon Juice, alas.

  109. 109.

    NotMax

    December 29, 2019 at 3:50 am

    @Amir Khalid

    Maybe if in unison we click our heels together three times…

    :)

  110. 110.

    sab

    December 29, 2019 at 3:54 am

    Wide awake at 4 am in my time zone. I would love to go downstairs and do something/anything, but I do not want to wake up any of our five cats. Sigh.

  111. 111.

    Jay

    December 29, 2019 at 3:56 am

    @sab:

    yup, on the Coast for the Holidays.

  112. 112.

    Jay

    December 29, 2019 at 3:58 am

    @sab:

    don’t they wake you up when they want?

    isn’t turnabout fair play?

  113. 113.

    Bruuuuce

    December 29, 2019 at 4:07 am

    @Amir Khalid: Thanks. Mostly okay, though I could use three months off of work and $25K to handle various non-life-threatening but problematic body parts (eyes, teeth, feet). I do read here, but have recently gotten to the point where I’m on the phone more than the desktop (especially at work), which dissuades me from commenting unless it’s really important.

  114. 114.

    Amir Khalid

    December 29, 2019 at 5:15 am

    I just took a moment to put The Girl in Keef tuning: removed the 6th string and saddle, and retuned to 5-string open G. Surprisingly quick job. I look forward to many happy hours of Stones riffs.

  115. 115.

    frosty

    December 29, 2019 at 6:09 am

    @Amir Khalid: I expect you’ll find the shuffle rhythm in Keef tuning is so easy you won’t want to go back. I never mastered playing the 6th with my pinky while barring an E fingering. It’s been open tunings (and slide) for me for a long time now.

  116. 116.

    germy

    December 29, 2019 at 6:59 am

    On this day in 1776, the Second Continental Congress voted to approve a resolution of independence from Great Britain! I proudly wear our colors, just as I would bleed them, the red, the white and the glorious blue! #USA ??Tops by @TPUSA at https://t.co/MediLgw7KD ⬅️ #TPUSA pic.twitter.com/N2XQFT4dkz— Christianné L Allen (@Christianne_L_A) July 2, 2019

  117. 117.

    Amir Khalid

    December 29, 2019 at 7:12 am

    @germy:

    This Christianné L Allen person also bleeds white and blue? Has she spoken to her doctor about this?

    Also, too: Christianné?

  118. 118.

    germy

    December 29, 2019 at 7:51 am

    Interesting thread on writers:

    Writers have been culturally poised between two bad stereotypes:

    1) The insecure worm crippled by anxiety and self doubt.

    2) The Hemingway bravura monster who needs nothing except booze, a secure place in history and an early death.

    Join me in rejecting both.

    — Michael Green (@andmichaelgreen) December 29, 2019

  119. 119.

    Mowgli

    December 29, 2019 at 9:31 am

    @Adam L Silverman: this is an incredibly well-stated summary of the American Evangelical movement.

  120. 120.

    Richard Guhl

    December 29, 2019 at 10:14 am

    @Adam L Silverman:  It’s critical to always keep in mind that white evangelicalism is descended from the sects that vociferously defended both slavery and secession. Their hyperliteralism and dogmatic approach to scripture was born out of their need to explain why the worst institution ever created by human imagination was actually morally good.
    One need only google Waco lynching to understand what they really stand for.
    A first century Jew put it succinctly when he declared that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

  121. 121.

    Amir Khalid

    December 29, 2019 at 10:19 am

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I have always liked this succinct illustration of Evangelical Christians’ idea of virtue:

    I was drivin’ home early one morning through Bakersfield,

    Listenin’ to gospel music on the colored radio station

    When the preacher said, YOU KNOW YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE LORD BY YOUR SIDE!!

    I was so pleased to be informed of this that I ran twenty red lights in His honor

    Thank you Jesus, thank you Lord

    — The Rolling Stones

  122. 122.

    cain

    December 29, 2019 at 10:43 am

    @feebog:

    Is this why he’s getting divorced again?

  123. 123.

    kindness

    December 29, 2019 at 10:44 am

    Today’s Doonesbury was poignant:

    https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2019/12/29

  124. 124.

    Miss Bianca

    December 29, 2019 at 11:07 am

    @kindness: it’s so weird, since the decline of actual newsprint newspapers and therefore of the funny pages, I keep forgetting that comic strips I’ve loved all my life, like “Doonesbury”, still publish – online.

  125. 125.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    December 29, 2019 at 11:19 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yes, the granddaughter he doesn’t have. Sounds like senility to me.

  126. 126.

    WaterGirl

    December 29, 2019 at 11:35 am

    @kindness: Wow.

  127. 127.

    jc

    December 29, 2019 at 11:39 am

    The Onan network is to the right of Fox News? I don’t think they’re to the “right” — the reason they appeal to Trump is because they’re even more willing to say whatever will benefit Trump, and thereby themselves, or give them political advantage. Just like Trump. It isn’t about where they sit on the political spectrum, they’re just shameless opportunists who will cheat however is necessary in order to “win.” Just like Trump.

  128. 128.

    Kathleen

    December 29, 2019 at 11:48 am

    @Anne Laurie: I’m not even going to write the first thing that popped in my mind when I saw her picture and “bio”. And it has nothing to do with a relationship with Rudy.

  129. 129.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    December 29, 2019 at 11:50 am

    @Adam L Silverman: The narrative I was told about modern American Evangelicalism; American society goes threw these cycles of belief and skepticism, WW2 happened during a belief cycle. This got unnaturally extended by the Cold War, the Soviets were atheists so we Americans were Christians. End result in the ’50s preachers were making fat bank then because everyone went to church.  Then came the 70s, the Cold War eased up and the cycle started moving again and that meant skepticism is on the rise, church attendance plummeted.

    Naturally this was a horror story to all these preachers who were seeing their business decline, a group of preachers like Bill Graham came up with Charismatic Christianity, which is basically using sales and marketing methods bring people back to church.  That’s why they all sound like door to do door salesmen, because they are.  It’s not about did the person embrace the belief, it’s was the pitch enough to make the sale. This is also why Evangelicalism is so white male, that’s the target demographic and it’s commandments are “Don’t be poor”, “Don’t be a homosexual”, all easy stuff for a middle class, heterosexual white male.

    Even then, from 2000 on, religious belief in the US has been imploding and heading towards European lines of 33% believer 33% agnostic and 33% unbeliever. This will not do for this big business Mega Churches, the pastor has his vacation home and Mercedes to pay for. So now they’ve up the game to outright mind control cult were the believers entire social life are in the church, so if they say something their pastor doesn’t approve of they get shunned by their friends and family.  In other words lots of Evangelicals don’t believe this nonsense, but they have to say it publicly.  Jones Town, here we come on a nation wide scale.

    Also, let us not forget the children, who are overwhelmingly unbelievers because having hypocrites scream in their face for years about how these kids are worthless sinners and they needed to grow up and be like the hypocrite. Lot’s of broken families because of Evangelicalism.

    I suspect that bit about the mind control cult aspect is something you would have a lot to say about Adam with your background if you looked into it.

  130. 130.

    Jinchi

    December 29, 2019 at 11:52 am

    @Jay: The money comes later.

    In Giuliani’s case it comes now. He gets it by selling access to American power.

    It’s a sign of how corrupted our politics have become that Giuliani could publicly declare he was working pro-bono for a billionaire American president and it took years before the press thought to ask “Why?”

  131. 131.

    Bill Arnold

    December 29, 2019 at 11:53 am

    @Martin:

    which is why cries of hypocrisy by the left doesn’t land – we have it backward.
    So that’s just part of the performance.

    The cries of hypocrisy, and Matthew 6:5-6 do land, because they are saying that evangelicals are engaged in unconvincing bad acting, and many rank-and-file evangelicals are quite sincere believers.
    Critics need to make it more explicit though, and much more theologically informed and pointed. Adam mentioned religious syncretism above; the mixing of Republican political dogma and evangelical Christian dogma[1] is a toxic form of religious syncretism.
    [1] both are cobbled-together and deliberately simplified, so the mixing is possible, albeit with additional inconsistencies in the resulting dogma.

  132. 132.

    chopper

    December 29, 2019 at 11:53 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    these days it would be more like “so i figured i’d get to take the carpool lane”

  133. 133.

    J R in WV

    December 29, 2019 at 12:17 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: 

    And what theology they have, such as their bioethics, is borrowed and not clearly understood because the emphasis on scriptural hyper-literalism privileges dogma and dogmatism over the nuance of theology.

    And they are very picky about their chosen bit and pieces of their scripture, which excludes all the parts of the Bible about helping others, all the parables of Christ, suffer the little children, etc, etc.

    My understand of Christianity would make anyone participating in caging little kids at the southern border liable for shunning and jail time. But that’s just me, and I’m not a Christian… closer to pagan.

    NOTE to Watergirl: I didn’t get both tabs for this comment post. just the text tool bar, although it isn’t displaying all the code as I type, as I would expect the Text tab to display it. Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS and Firefox 71.0

  134. 134.

    J R in WV

    December 29, 2019 at 12:29 pm

    @Kent:

    But it is one long thread going back to Reagan, or perhaps Goldwater.

    It goes way back before that… remember that FDR, fabulously wealthy scion of ancient heritage, was called a commie for not wanting people to starve during the Hoover Depression.

    And of course, the very idea that the Federal Government might interfere with the Free Market to keep people from starving was out of the question to those “conservatives” !!

    Anti-Trust work by the government was also a communist plot! Trying to keep poison out of the food supply was also un-American! They’ve been feudal lord worshippers and wannabees for at least a century and a half.

  135. 135.

    NotoriousJRT

    December 29, 2019 at 1:21 pm

    @Jay: EXACTLY. No free lunches-see also: Manafort and, of course, Giuliani himself.

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