Yesterday, Joe Biden said he wouldn’t comply with a congressional subpoena in Trump’s impeachment trial in the Senate. Here is the relevant portion of his remarks to the Des Moines Register:
Former Vice President Joe Biden confirmed Friday he would not comply with a subpoena to testify in a Senate trial of President Donald Trump…
Biden said in early December he wouldn’t comply with a subpoena by the Senate, and confirmed that statement Friday in an interview with the Des Moines Register’s editorial board. He has not been subpoenaed, but Trump’s allies have floated the idea.
Testifying before the Senate on the matter would take attention away from Trump and the allegations against him, Biden said. Not even “that thug” Rudy Giuliani, Trump’s personal attorney and former New York City mayor, has accused Biden of doing anything but his job, the former vice president said. Biden also said any attempt to subpoena him would be on “specious” grounds, and he predicted it wouldn’t come to that.
Biden said even if he volunteered to testify in an attempt to clear the air, it would create a media narrative that would let Trump off the hook.
“What are you going to cover?” Biden said to Register Executive Editor Carol Hunter in response to a question. “You guys are going to cover for three weeks anything that I said. And (Trump’s) going to get away. You guys buy into it all the time. Not a joke … Think what it’s about. It’s all about what he does all the time, his entire career. Take the focus off. This guy violated the Constitution. He said it in the driveway of the White House. He acknowledged he asked for help.”
I thought that was a crappy answer and said so in the morning thread. Opinions varied. But this morning, Biden clarified on Twitter:
I want to clarify something I said yesterday. In my 40 years in public life, I have always complied with a lawful order and in my eight years as VP, my office — unlike Donald Trump and Mike Pence — cooperated with legitimate congressional oversight requests.
But I am just not going to pretend that there is any legal basis for Republican subpoenas for my testimony in the impeachment trial. That is the point I was making yesterday and I reiterate: this impeachment is about Trump’s conduct, not mine.
The subpoenas should go to witnesses with testimony to offer to Trump’s shaking down the Ukraine government — they should go to the White House.
That’s a much better answer! Still, I think Ozark Hillbilly had the best response of all:
“I will answer any subpoena in the same way as Donald trump. If he agrees to appear and submit himself to questions without any preconditions on the matters before the Senate, I will do the same.”
The Biden campaign should hire Mr. Hillbilly as a consultant. Open thread!
Raoul
“And Trump has to go first.”
Otherwise it’s just like his tax returns, which he will release ‘as soon as the audit is over.’
MattF
Biden’s not thrilling, but that’s OK by me.
WaterGirl
Betty, I can’t stop giggling over this:
Mr. Hillbilly, indeed! (still giggling)
Betty Cracker
@MattF: I don’t give a damn about thrilling, but baseline competence would be nice.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
He has great consultants, it seems, fine people making his ads and running his twitter account to “clear up” things like this, but he himself creates situations like this. I’m more ready than many here to settle for Biden, I even like him, but god almighty stuff like this makes me nervous. My word as a Literalist!
Kay
It is better.
I got an email from Bloomberg’s campaign asking for referrals on anyone who might want to be a field organizer in this county. The email wasn’t just to me personally- I imagine they sent them out to people in all 88 counties, but I think it’s interesting they’re down at this level of planning. And wonder where they got their list.
Putting a field organizer in this county this early would be unusual- there’s only about 8k possible D votes- only Obama has done it.
Yarrow
I think Biden’s “gaffes” are baked in. They won’t matter much because people already know he says dumb stuff. They look past it.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: Sure. But I think trying to troll Trump is an unforced error. Hard to resist the temptation, but I don’t see it winning a vote.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay:
Interesting. I’m guessing that’s partly explained by having effectively limitless funding, but has he hired any old Obama hands? I haven’t seen any of the marquis names associated with MB yet.
If only our green billionaire were as freaked out by what’s happening in Australia as I am (Cole’s current tweet on the homepage has left me kind of numb this morning) maybe he’d be throwing some of that money behind D Senate candidates. But Bloomaparte is personally insulted by EW’s wealth tax, that will shrink the size of… something very important to him, so a habitable planet be damned!
Kay
Biden is, by far, the preferred choice of engaged white working class Democrats in this county. It’s simple, I think- they trust him on their issues, which are 90% economic. That Biden is also (according to polling) the majority choice of AA Democrats gives him two of the three most sought-after groups in the Democratic Party this cycle. If he gets college educated women he’s 3 for 3.
Emma
For crying outloud. He will never do anything good enough, will he? I happen to think he answered correctly. He took the fight to the press, where it freaking belongs. He told them flat out they had failed at their job and that he would not provide them with a reason to keep failing at it. Which, by the way, is something many people in the blog, posters and commenters, have complained about multiple times. But instead of supporting him, we nitpick him to death. We weaken our our (possible) candidates and then we complain when they lose. Say what you will about Republicans, they rally around even the worst of their tribe.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
I think Biden’s initial approach was spot on, but your mileage may vary. Turn this bullshit back on Trump, the Republicans, and their pals in the media. This is about Trump’s conduct as President, and anything else is an intentional diversion or distraction.
debbie
That is far better, but he should have skipped yesterday’s trash talking altogether.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The Australia situation is beyond horrifying.
RandomMonster
The Biden campaign announced today that it is hiring Ozark Hillbilly as a political consultant. When asked for a statement on the new hire, Joe Biden said, “Blech.”
debbie
@Yarrow:
And the GOP will hang him on them.
mrmoshpotato
@Yarrow: I hope so, if he’s the nominee, because we know Dump is going to blow any slip up way out of proportion, and the media will help. (See emails and health.)
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Bloomberg will not get labor in this county. They’re mostly (by far) Biden with Bernie as a distant second. They aren’t a majority even among Democrats in the county but they are a huge majority among plugged-in, active Democrats. So, in other words, where someone like an organizer would come out of.
I emailed back and asked what it pays. I wonder if I’ll hear back :)
I don’t want the job- I think Bloomberg is a moderate Republican and belongs in their Party but I wonder if he pays better than other people.
zhena gogolia
@Emma:
My feelings exactly.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Emma: When we have a clear winner (or front runner, at least) in May, hopefully we can begin to rally then. BBs notwithstanding, hopefully we can have a positive, unifying convention, and take the fight to Trump and the Republicans across this great land we share.
WaterGirl
@RandomMonster: hahahahaha
dww44
@Kay: I’m curious, between Biden and Sanders, which of the two do you think more women would prefer? I’m not sure because I’m bummed that we don’t have a woman candidate at the top of the list. I’m tired of settling for conventional wisdom, i.e. a white male. If the consensus is that we have to field a male to defeat Trump, then I’d much prefer Cory Booker. Plus, as an old myself, Booker is younger than either of the two front runners.
WaterGirl
@dww44: This woman prefers Biden 1000 to 1.
Betty Cracker
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I think the initial response — threatening noncompliance with a subpoena — was off because it undermines the rule of law stance the Dems are taking with Trump. I suppose one could argue this latest clarification does the same thing because Biden doesn’t explicitly commit to compliance, but the language is more artful and specifically calls out the lawless Trump admin for defying subpoenas.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@dww44:
I think Sanders (or maybe his supporters) alienated a lot of women with his treatment of HRC in 2016.
Kay
@dww44:
Biden. That’s my experience here. Our local Democratic Party lacks black people, which is understandable since it’s 92% white here, but what it also lacks (which is our fault) is white working class women. We have white working class men and college educated women. It’s odd and could be remedied. They put me on it one year for a school levy- I took Obama lists and narrowed them to lower income neighborhoods and the women in those neighborhoods and we won the school levy. I can’t prove it but I think it was white working class women.
jeffreyw
@WaterGirl: His friends know him as Ozzie.
Kay
Bernie is second so I don’t want to diss his chances, which I just think is incorrect, whatever you think about him he’s second, but it is kind of amusing to me that Biden gets white working class men and AA – if indeed he does- because that’s what Bernie was supposed to get :)
It kind of contradicts both the operating theories of 2020, both Bernie’s and Bernie’s opponents. Someone can get both white working class and AA voters. It just isn’t anyone new :)
MomSense
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
He pissed off this woman by dismissing Planned Parenthood as the establishment. PP has been in the trenches providing care for women while facing constant threats, violence, and loss of funding. I’m still mad about it. Bernie Sanders can go fuck himself. The PP that cared for me when I was pregnant and scared was fucking bombed by a “pro-lifer”. Sanders has a very white male definition of progressivism.
Ohio Mom
I suppose l am a member of that coveted group, college-educated suburban wife/mother. I am definitely warming up to Biden.
Can’t stand Bernie, can’t imagine him listening to anyone else or compromising to get half a loaf. I think his lack of accomplishment in the Senate bears that out.
Don’t know of that is a complete answer to you,@dww44: , maybe one small data point.
zhena gogolia
@MomSense:
I’m just praying he doesn’t get the nomination. I don’t know what I’ll do if he does.
Emma
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I hope so. What worries me is that, so damn often, we play into the “democrats in disarray” media talking points.
We know what most of the media is conservative corporate bought and sold, and yet we sometimes try to make believe that IF we find the candidate they will back off. Or be silenced by the perfect candidate’s perfection. It will never happen.
We need to get off our belief in justice and righteousness and bring out the James Bond weaponry at every level. We are in the middle of a civil war and we keep on trying to fight with paper knives.
MomSense
@Kay:
I think that Biden has tapped into what most people want – normalcy and predictability. I don’t see any appetite for big structural change – both the fight required and the backlash. People are tired.
Yarrow
@Emma:
Completely agree and said so in the thread downstairs. Calling out the press is important and necessary.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@zhena gogolia: May your prayers be answered.
Thankfully, Bernie’s path to the nomination is a challenging and difficult one, even as he maintains his second place rank.
MomSense
@zhena gogolia:
Having seen some of the oppo research, I think the smart move would be to buy some arable land with a good water source and build an off grid shelter with good security. We will devolve quickly after he loses.
kindness
I’m an Elizabeth Warren supporter at this point but will moderately happily vote for Joe (or Bernie if it comes to that) in the General just to kick Trump out of office. I can say this because I really don’t think it will be Joe or Bernie that gets nominated. Who wins states like Iowa or New Hampshire, with a combined 3 M registered voters don’t matter when you look at the 153 M of us here in the US (2018 #s).
The media is going to run on it’s cage match narrative no matter what because it thinks it generates clicks by repeating rightwingnutz insanity. The MSM thinks that’s the same thing as voter interest and that insanity is excitement. It’s a money game for the media. The MSM just thinks they need their Chuck Todds to earnestly present the circus and sell the clicks.
Our founding parents never imagined the intricate corruption that could take their design to this. We have to get out the vote and fix/save what the founding folks started. A Constitutional Amendment for a straight popular vote for President would be a good start. The Interstate Voting Compact many states have agreed to is fine but we all know some Federalist Society jerk will sue and then all MoscowMitch’s Federalist Society’s judges will agree with them. I don’t trust it alone in the long run.
Brachiator
RE: That’s a much better answer! Still, I think Ozark Hillbilly had the best response of all:
Yeppity yep…
WaterGirl
@jeffreyw: I am still giggling over Mr. Hillbilly!
Baud
I supported Biden’s original statement in the last thread and I support this clarification. It keeps the story about McConnell’s kangaroo trial in the news for another cycle.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: You are so right.
Sanders has a very white male definition of
progressivismEVERYTHING. I simply cannot understand what people see in him. In 2016, I can understand that he was the not-Hillary option.But now? I just don’t get it.
Betty Cracker
@MomSense: That’s Charlie Pierce’s theory too — he calls it the “Old Shoe” factor. I don’t get it at all myself; I truly believe we need a hard course correction or we’ll spend our golden years being hunted for sport by tech lords. ? But it’s looking like mine is the minority opinion.
Baud
@Kay: Bernie’s strength is young people. A black mark on an otherwise stellar cohort.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
The problem is that course correction leads to backlash so it’s always 2 steps forward followed by disaster.
Baud
@MomSense:
I agree. People were either going to get revolutionary after Trump (the Sarandon Gambit) or covet a return to normalcy. Biden is banking on the latter.
JaySinWA
Exactly what I thought when I first read of Biden’s decision. This plays into the “both sides do it” and “the both parties are just as bad” lines that the press seems to love.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MomSense:
and even that may be too broad. The New Republic has an issue out about the failures of neo-liberalism and more specifically of the greatest, most pernicious neo-liberal of all: (cue dramatic squirrel) BARACK OBAMA (play dramatic squirrel), and trump is Obama’s fault. I didn’t read and I’m not going to because see above, but I read Jonathan Chait’s response and it’s pretty clear it’s the usual hothouse Bernie-ism. Congress doesn’t exist, all the legislation of 2009-17 was passed, or not, by Obama and his “advisers”, and the electorate only exists in as much as the “everyone agrees with us, they just don’t know it yet” /false consciousness chestnut. And, having not read it, it’s pure speculation on my part that race and racism, if mentioned at all, are downplayed to the point of being a non-factor in the Obama era. But I’m pretty comfortable with that speculation.
Baud
@JaySinWA:
If you believe that, then OzarkHillbilly’s modification should be just as unacceptable.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I only skimmed it, but Wonkette said that Cenk recently attacked Nancy Pelosi using the same argument.
schrodingers_cat
Did Jewish groups have to pay ransom to German authorities to be able to live in their own homes? Because that’s what’s happening in the BJP run Uttar Pradesh right now.
Brachiator
@MomSense:
I read this a lot, and I guess it is true for many people. But to me Biden is just a tired old man, without much in the way of new or good ideas, who is using his past connection to a beloved president Obama for his own last shot at glory.
Biden implies continuity, but I think he is largely an empty vessel. Note that I believe that he and all the other Democratic Party candidates are hugely superior to Trump, but there is a reason that Biden failed in past attempts to win the nomination. Other candidates were better.
But as I write this, I think I also agree to some extent that some of what Biden appears to represent is valid. I think that some of the other candidates offer Big Ideas, but I don’t think that they are necessarily good ideas. But while Biden may have a point that people may not want big structural change, they do want things to get better. And I am not sure that Biden is the best hope for that.
My original preferred candidate was Harris. I greatly wish that the apparent front runners were younger. We need a generational shift.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@MomSense: Going back to the Obama ways would be a huge change after Trump. That’s the big change we can generally agree on.
MomSense
@Brachiator:
I’m praying to FSM for a Biden Harris ticket.
Kelly
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
All the Dem candidates make me nervous. The stakes are so high and our opponents so passionate.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: we have to win the presidential election/s, and whole bunch of others, before we can correct course, and I don’t think “trust us, you’ll be better off without your existing health insurance” or “here’s why single-payer health care is part of the Green New Deal….” are gonna play well in Wisconsin and Arizona.
President Biden will be as bold and progressive as Congress allows or forces him to be.
schrodingers_cat
Calling Bisht’s regime Nazi-like gives Bhakts a heartburn, I was accused of trivializing what happened to the Jewish people in Germany.
*Bisht calls himself Yogi Adityanath. I refuse to call these goons by their assumed names they are not Yogis or sadhvis and they don’t deserve any respect as holy men/women.
Baud
@Brachiator:
Which for many people means they’ll be able to go a day without having to think about him, unlike the current guy.
mrmoshpotato
@Kelly:
By “so passionate,” do you batfuck nuts and willing to make up shit out of whole cloth?
JaySinWA
@Baud: but I don’t see OzarkHillbilly’s proposal as unacceptable. It uses the narrative to put the blame on Trump and defuses the “anyone can defy a subpoena” . OTOH you might just be making fun of the both sides do it with irony than I am not quite catching.
patrick II
Ozark Hillbilly has it exactly right. Not responding to a subpoena at all, no matter how specious, will also bring “both sides not answering subpoenas” in our genius press. Biden should testify if Donald does, and Biden Jr. should testify for accepting a foreign business’s or a foreign country’s money when Jared, Ivanka, and Jr, testify about the same.
Kay
@Baud:
Right. And Biden’s weakness is young people. I know we disagree about this, but I’m on their side on this one. The status quo is not working for them. Scolding them to go back to Biden-time – like Biden does- is not responsive to the issues they raise.
Biden could maybe do something interesting on that front. I’d like to see someone go after working class young people. No one seeks them out and I think they sometimes default to the GOP.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Nancy Pelosi is a right-winger who’s killing poor people
Fact-based persons. I don’t know what they’re huffing, but they’re gonna be eating brains soon
Baud
@JaySinWA:
OH’s statement undermines the rule of law (under your theory) because it states that Biden won’t comply with a lawful subpeona if Trump doesn’t testify.
schrodingers_cat
Here is the link to the infuriating story
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Boy did you have Tulsi Gabbard’s number. Has she distanced herself yet from the insane authoritarian she backed? I saw they were trying to get her to respond on Twitter.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Neither racism nor reality exists for these people. Once they associate Obama with neoliberalism, they cannot see anything else as a political or economic factor.
As a related aside, I would try to look at the YouTube sites of some of these people. Michael Brooks and the Young Turks for example. They were excited about the British general election and saw connections between Corbyn and Sanders. They were shocked senseless when Labour got its ass kicked. But typically, they could not honestly look at why working class Britons voted for the Tories, and quickly fell back on the people’s “failure” to understand what was good for them. They were “supposed” to vote for Corbyn and failed at their duty.
Similarly, these people still insist that the American people are “supposed” to vote for Bernie, because only he can deliver political and economic Nirvana.
stinger
@zhena gogolia: If he does, then I’ll work like hell to get Democratic senators, representatives, governors, and state legislatures elected.
And, I suppose, hold my nose and vote for him.
Baud
@Kay:
I would be with the youngs too if they had gone with Warren. Too many of them chose to be part of a cult rather than improve their future. I’ll respect the voters decision, but I’m supporting Biden over Bernie.
Fair Economist
@schrodingers_cat:
Sometimes, but mostly they were just restricted and then ethnically cleansed. But it’s certainly not trivializing the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany to point out that the BJP is starting with some of the same actions as the Nazis – stripping people of basic rights and citizenship.
tobie
Amy Klobuchar completed her tour to all 99 Iowa counties. Apparently only one other candidate visited all 99, which strikes me as odd. Of the moderate candidates, I still like her the best. She’s smart and personable and knows how government works. (Here’s a clip of her citing rattling off a list of revenue generators with her signature nerdy humor.) I also like that she’s not afraid to say things that don’t get applause. I actually think the next President is going to have to convey a lot of bad news when the consequences of Trump’s mal-administration become apparent. I want someone who will be honest even if that means saying unpopular things.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: I agree with you. Remember Maslow’s hierarchy of needs?
I think that a whole lot of people want a hard course correction, but right now we are collectively living in the bottom two layers of Maslow’s hierarchy where our survival and safety are at risk.
I think that to a lot of people, Biden represents safety and security, and for the moment, that trumps the desire for a hard course correction.
Virtually speaking, get people a roof over their head, and water to drink, and get them to the point where they don’t feel there is an existential thread to our existence, and THEN we can talk about all the other stuff we need to change.
That’s my two cents.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“fact-based person”
Do go on…
Wanker. Why does this guy have a platform?
Kay
@stinger:
I’m not a Biden fan either. I’ll happily back him over Trump though, as I will Bernie is he wins. I think they’re about equally competitive v Trump and they’re 1 and 2.
mrmoshpotato
@Brachiator:
We all know it’s already rigged rigged against Wilmer.
Wow, I just made myself roll my eyes.
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: That’s why I am starting to come to terms with the idea of Biden, who was not even my 5th choice, but who will hopefully be smart enough to choose Stacey Abrams for his VP.
We get Biden for the basic needs of safety and security, and then when we can breathe again, we’ve got Stacey Abrams to help get us where we really want to be.
edit: personally, I want a Stacey Abrams now. I am speaking to what I think is happening with the people who actually want Biden.
JaySinWA
@Baud:
I understand that, and it isn’t a perfect response, but it changes the narrative in the less discerning brains of the press. The focus then becomes why won’t Trump’s people respond or Trump respond. It should be broader, i’ll respond to congressional subpoenas when the Trump administration does. but it is a better first draft than Biden’s”
trollhattan
@tobie:
I remember Santorum being very proud of having campaigned in all 99 Iowa counties. Not sure it means much.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Baud: Yes. Right on.
We are not the audience for this stuff. And we don’t need to be, since we’re well informed and “team broken glass” etc.
Baud
@tobie:
I’d take her over Bernie and Biden, but I don’t know if she’ll catch on.
trollhattan
@Kay:
Guessing Bernie’s heart attack has faded from memory. That seems unwise, but maybe it’s just me.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: as an aside, I grew up with TNR in the House, my father started reading it in the 50s and didn’t cancel his subscription till Peretz endorsed the Iraq War. I used to pick it up from time to time when I was there, but never read it regularly. Kind of amazing to think a masthead that relatively recently included Michael Kelly, Charles Lane and Andrew Sullivan is now occupied by a bunch of Bernie Bots
trollhattan
@Baud:
At this point she’s probably the candidate best-equipped to debate Trump, now that Harris is out.
Kay
@trollhattan:
IMO, Bernie gets a complete pass from media because they don’t think he can win, which has benefited him- which even some of his supporters will admit- that it has benefited him thus far. His sitting at a kind of “stealth second” candidate is a nice place to be.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: Dump would have a field day with that. “I prefer people who don’t have heart attacks.”
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Brachiator: The generational shift is still coming.
I’m starting to see Biden as a caretaker/bridge President while we clean up the Trump mess and get things sorted out.
jc
It’s good that Biden gets that Trump is a manipulative monster, but I get the feeling that no matter what Biden says over the next year, every time Trump or his enablers are asked about Ukraine or corruption etc., the response will be: ‘But Hunter Biden…’ They don’t care if it’s nonsense, it shifts the focus. Hell, Trump is *still* ragging on Obama the secret Muslim and Hillary’s emails. It’s a toxic, sick game, played by unbelievably rotten people.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I used to rely heavily on progressive media (at least internet based media), but I don’t find them reliable anymore. It kind of sucks, since the mainstream media hasn’t gotten any better.
Nora
@Kay: I think that was part of the reason Trump got treated with such deference during the primaries in 2016, because the press decided he wasn’t going to win and therefore why not have a little fun covering him?
Bernie really has benefited from extraordinary luck from 2016 to the present as far as getting attacked or even being challenged goes.
trollhattan
@Kay: @mrmoshpotato:
Bernie rattling around in second place really worries me because he’s one Big Biden gaffe away from top dog. Of course I’d vote for him but he would NOT generate the big turnout we need to dump Trump. We need 2018 Part Deux and Sanders cannot achieve that.
JaySinWA
@Kay: Yep Bernie is getting the Trump media pass. “Can’t happen, why bother”
@trollhattan: Given Bernie’s HA, who he would pick as a VP should be an important question. Who would he chose and who would be willing to take that place?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@tobie: I like her too, but I think she was just too slow out of the gate. Also, I’ve been dismissing the stories about her being mean to staff– I’m okay with tough bosses– but somebody at HuffPo was recently tweeting out excerpts of that story– I don’t know if there was some new info I didn’t see or if it was just shit-stirring– but some of them were more disturbing than I remembered.
This one in particular:
There are apparently also emails, that will leak. As Kelly says, all the candidates have reason to make us nervous. Hunter Biden, Warren’s claims of NA heritage, Klobuchar’s staffers… Gonna be a nerve-wracking year.
Kay
@tobie:
I don’t count Klobachur out because she’s the centrist alternative to Biden – a slot that needs filled, hence Mayor Pete seeing the opening. Biden will still have the advantage though, because of AA and white working class MEN. There just aren’t that many people who can put those two parts of the Democratic Party together, and as long as Democrats need rust belt states you have to put them together.
It only changes when Democrats no longer need PA and MI and/or WI. Those states have a very specific calculation- urban blowout plus tamp down the GOP edge in rural areas.
tobie
@trollhattan: I think visiting all counties might make a difference in caucus states where winning in far-flung counties gets you more points than the total vote count but I could well be wrong.
@Baud: I have no clue how a candidate gains traction at any point and especially at this point. In some ways the race has been static with the top four set for some time.
Eric
Amazing. Nobody – not one of you – bothered to make the distinction that Trump’s claim to avoid a subpoena is based on executive power. You know, the same one that Obama invoked for Fast and Furious? The executive branch is a co-equal branch of the government and disputes between the executive and legislative are settled by the judiciary.
Private citizen Joe Biden has no such protection and he must comply with a subpoena.
Baud
@tobie:
Yes. I agree. Looks bleak.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan: Agreed. I really don’t see his appeal outside of “I’m going to give you everything for free!”
Kay
@trollhattan:
I’m less sure than you guys are about Bernie’s electability. It’s woo woo but I think a group of people loving the candidate matters. It mattered for Obama. Democrats always discount it. I think Bush won in ’04 because Republicans loved him and Democrats didn’t love Kerry. I know we don’t love Bernie but his supporters do, and there are a LOT of them.
I put Bernie and Biden closer than you-all do on electability with Biden having a slight edge. Partly it’s because I think Trump is going to be hard to beat. If we win we’re going to win by 2. Close. Those elections are, IMO, decided by passionate supporters.
Baud
@Kay:
I’ve never called anyone unelectable. I can’t imagine Bernie won’t eventually schism the Democratic Party however.
Brachiator
@Baud:
Like many people, it gives me heartburn and a headache to think about Trump as president. But this does not mean that I want a president who is a doddering nonentity sitting on the porch whittling wood.
Also, to be fair to Biden, he did seem to be an effective supporter and facilitator for Obama. Ultimately, I want a president who gets stuff done, but it has to be based on what is truly best for the country, not based on hate, fracture and demonization.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
It’s been remarkably stable, with Biden and Bernie’s national poll numbers virtually unchanged since Dec 2018.
Nothing that has happened in the race this last year has affected this top line dynamic. None of the various Biden gaffes, Bernie’s heart attack and his own gaffes, rise and fall of Harris, Warren, and presumably Mayor Pete – nothing has eroded Biden’s general dominance, or Bernie’s solid second. Very stable overall. I hope we can use that to our advantage next year.
beth
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I would bet money that Trump’s nickname for her will be “Angry Amy”. I hope she’s able to get in front of it by responding along the lines of “Yes, I’m angry that you sold out the country to Russia”. The winning candidate will be able to parry the ugly caricature Trump paints of her/him.
tobie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks for link. I hadn’t seen that info. Yuck.
@Kay: I think it’s a steep uphill climb for Klobuchar and I don’t know if she’ll make it. I like her nose-to-the-grindstone approach and record of accomplishment but if her appeal is limited to middle-aged women like myself, that’s a problem.
From the get-go I thought the Democratic path to victory was through Arizona and Texas not the upper midwest. That’s why I was supporting Beto. I don’t know if we have a fighting chance in Texas now. It will be close and activists there are galvanized but voter suppression in TX is as bad as in FL, GA, and WI. At this point I’m putting all my donation dollars into voting rights and immigrant rights groups. Helping to protect and extend the franchise is probably the best thing I can do for small-d and large-d democratic politics.
Kay
@Baud:
It’s funny because there is a labor person here I like and I spoke with him last night and he thinks a Biden v Bernie race would be civil. He thinks they have a really long relationship and it won’t be scorched earth. He’s comfortable with either as basically a single issue pro-labor voter. Biden is a relationship pol. That’s how he operates.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mrmoshpotato: he is authentic and consistent, even I’ll give him that, and he’s right that the system is rigged in favor of the rich, but his solutions are, to varying degrees, simplistic, unpopular (bad politics) and unworkable. Case in point: Breaking up the big banks. I instinctively agree with that, I don’t think the too-big-to-fail problem has been solved. But when asked how he will do that, what legislation does or will enable him (us) to do that, he responds, effectively: The big banks will be broken up, because the big banks should be broken up.
Cancer and diabetes should not be sources of profit for corporations, I agree. That doesn’t mean Joe Manchin is gonna vote for SP, under any President or Majority Leader. I doubt Chris Coons will either.
Mitch McConnell should be afraid of his party’s unpopularity with millions and millions of young people, and broader demographic trends. But he knows voting patterns, he knows the demographic breakdowns from state to state (so does Nancy Pelosi, btw). He’s betting he, and his party, can survive in the short term long enough to pack the courts. Thus far, he doesn’t see anything out his window to scare him into changing his behavior.
Brachiator
@Kay:
I’m less sure than you guys are about Bernie’s electability. It’s woo woo but I think a group of people loving the candidate matters.
I don’t know whether Sanders is electable. And I think you are absolutely correct that “a group of people loving the candidate matters. ”
I am really curious to see how Sanders will do in the primaries.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay:
I’m guessing if you asked him about Rose Twitter, he would say “what the hell are you talking about?”
laura
I just cannot unsee that ridiculous dress downstairs – the one with the dyed hair to match.
JFC, those sleeves. That whole garbage look distracts from this post. Did she not have a single friend to just tell her honey no, not that one?
Yarrow
@Emma:
YES! THIS!
Kay
@tobie:
I think that’s too risky and gives Trump too much credit. He won those states by 10k and 20k. He had a kind of perfect storm. Democrats aren’t going to abandon them in exchange for a herculean effort in Texas that has to pay off. I’m thrilled it’s closer in Texas but I would also like to win, hence my grudging support for Biden. Or Bernie. :)
Baud
@Kay:
Bernie delegates most of his incivility to his staff and online trolls.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Kay: If 2017, 2018, and 2019 turnout has shown, Democrats are motivated and are turning out in the Trump era.
We didn’t have a charismatic leader with a core of passionate followers when we won those races. Bernie wasn’t behind that. Obama wasn’t behind that. Democrats did it on our own. We’ll do fine with Biden. We’re fired up to kick Trump on his lying, hateful, weak ass.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker: What we really need is someone who comes across as comfortable, familiar, stable and will provide normalcy and predictability while actually passing legislation that will move things forward. The rhetoric doesn’t have to be radical. The legislation can be more so.
Baud
@Yarrow:
That’s me!
Kay
@Baud:
Agreed. I can forgive him the trolls but his staff are also horrible, which is all on him. Just hire someone fucking NICE, Bernie. Hire someone who actually likes Democratic voters. The fucking sneering is just unbearable and also DUMB. I say this as someone who has a sneering Bernie supporter in my house.
Luckily for him he is my precious angel so all will be forgiven, but he should try to get my vote! I try to get his!
Kelly
@mrmoshpotato: Yep
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sooo you’re agreeing with me that he doesn’t get into details on his “plans?”
Regarding Moscow Mitch and the Russthuglicans, I’d argue that they’ve already fucked the courts quite well.
painedumonde
The Hillbilly is right and proffers a much better line – but to think for an instant that the punditry will remove its collective head from its collective azz and not focus on the squirrel is sheer lunacy. They’ll prefer to luxuriate in their fetid stench while trying to outdo each other for depth of insertion.
Hoodie
@beth: if you’re busy parrying what Trump’s saying about you, you’re losing. Biden doesn’t have to do that. Neither does Pelosi, for that matter. With Trump you have to work on a more primal level. He has a hard time with people who are powerful maternal or paternal figures because he’s basically the same immature punk he’s always been.
Baud
@Kay:
Tough love Kay. It’s the only way.
mrmoshpotato
@laura: Lifestyles of the Rich and Cheerleading? (Not sorry. Not sorry at all.)
tobie
@Kay: Bernie has his niche but I don’t see it expanding. Not a single “Our Revolution” style candidate won a Congressional seat in a swing district in 2018. That matters to me.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@tobie: According to the latest Texas pres poll at 538, Biden is only one point behind Trump (47-48). The other top 3 are all 7-8 points behind. Someday we’re going to win Texas. Can it be 2020?
AZ is definitely on the list of states to focus on in 2020, esp. with the Senate race being winnable as well. FL will still be important. But we gotta expand the field and become less reliant on the Midwest in general in our Electoral College strategies.
JoyceH
If Bernie is the candidate, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him. But man, it takes a special kind of arrogance to be applying to lead a party you refuse to join! Call me old fashioned, but when I go to a Democratic Primary, I go there to vote for a Democrat.
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: LOL
Mike in NC
In 2004 Philip Roth wrote a novel called “The Plot Against America”, an alternate history where in 1940 the isolationist, anti-Semitic, pro-Nazi celebrity Charles Lindberg was elected president. It seems that back then nobody took the subject very seriously. Now that we have a isolationist and crypto-fascist celebrity thug sitting in the White House, people are reevaluating the book. HBO has turned it into a miniseries coming in March.
mrmoshpotato
@Kelly: Hehe, I would like to add the word “mean” to my original comment where it grammatical makes sense.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Yarrow: This.
debbie
Can someone please remind when lucky food is supposed to be eaten: New Year’s Eve or New Year’s Day?
Yarrow
@Kay:
One of the campaigns needs to dump some of their oppo research on Bernie. Or maybe start harping on those medical records he said would be released by the end of the year.
debbie
@Mike in NC:
A great book. Roth’s Operation Shylock, about the Mideast crisis, was equally prophetic (and depressing).
eclare
@Kay: He has this one. Originally a Harris supporter, and I am still sad about that. But I have settled on Biden.
Mary G
My middle-aged and older friends who are white Democrats with money all love Mayor Pete, because they want unity. One of them specifically told me she doesn’t care about policy. Ugh. The 20 something sons and grandsons love Andrew Yang. It’s frustrating as fuck.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@mrmoshpotato: he doesn’t care about details, he’s right, and his righteousness will carry the day
somehow
Yarrow
@jc:
Sure, and that’s what’s so smart about Biden’s original response. He called out the press and how they always follow the “Squirrel!” that Trump tosses out.
mrmoshpotato
@debbie: You’re supposed to eat food on a regular basis. It helps with the “Ah ah ah ah stayin’ alive stayin’ alive” aspect of life.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: I’ve always heard New Year’s Day. I was almost forty when I heard about black-eyed peas being good luck
ETA: It’s a Southern thing, isn’t it?
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@eclare: Me too. After a flirtation with Warren (I am currently sporting both Kamala and Warren bumperstickers on my car), I’ve come around to Biden as well. Means to an end, etc.
ETA – full disclosure, I am a college-educated male, not female, if relevant.
debbie
@mrmoshpotato:
?
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s pretty much everywhere now.
zhena gogolia
@debbie:
I believe it’s New Year’s Day.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Southern in origin, but spread all over. Black eyed peas have been part of my wife’s family’s New Years Day tradition for years (MIL’s side of the family, from California and Oregon).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This dolt slapped his name on a book-like thing called “Triggered” about how people who don’t like his daddy are all snowflakes
Yarrow
@Baud: The right choice was in front of us all along!
Villago Delenda Est
Old Handsome Joe is not wrong.
The MSM is worthless. My nym.
Wipe them out. All of them.
mrmoshpotato
Must be nice living in a world where Nazi trash aren’t holding rallies in public and Heather Heyer is still alive, and not, ya know, murdered.
joel hanes
No.
We must be uniformly, clearly, indisputably better than Trump.
We must be the party of the rule of law.
We must be the party that combats elite privilege.
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The line is that the people will figure out his policy details.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@tobie: Klobichar would be fine. Interestingly, she’s the choice of my former FBI agent friend. For me, Klobichar is unfortunately a charisma-sink.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mary G:
Somebody trotted out the old saw yesterday about “an old person’s idea of a young person”. Some truth to that, I guess
joel hanes
@Kay:
I expect that Buttigeig and Klobuchar will have a good day in Iowa, but that Super Tuesday will make it pretty much Biden’s to lose.
I wish I liked him better, but broken glass etc.
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Jim, cannibalism is bad, even around the new year.
mrmoshpotato
@debbie: ?
Yarrow
@tobie:
Beto was never going to win Texas as a presidential candidate nor would he increase turnout there. Ask any Texan. The path this election is still through the rust belt states.
mrmoshpotato
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What’s Stonekettle’s line – as much self-awareness as a dog licking its ass in public?
eclare
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Biden better make a damn good VP pick.
tobie
@Yarrow: What makes you think I didn’t ask Texans or didn’t follow the polling in the state or didn’t read local papers? Really, the condescension is completely unnecessary and off the mark. I did my research.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@eclare: Ron Klain is one of Biden’s closest advisers. I haven’t seen him called “Biden’s Brain” yet but I’d bet a thousand quatloos we will within a couple of months. I’m hoping and trusting he’s smart enough to overrule the Ed Rendells and the other DLC fossils who I think are a big part of Biden’s social and political circles.
tobie
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I like her but I can see that. I don’t find any of the candidates charismatic. I think the nominee will likely be Biden and we’ll have to brace ourselves for some gaffes while still working our hearts out for him because the alternative is too awful to contemplate.
The Moar You Know
@Emma: Nope. I’ve been pushing him since day one. Because he can win the general, the other candidates can’t, and that’s where this election is. You vote to put Trump out on the street or America dies. That’s where we are. And I am fucking sick to death of my party taking good people and insuring they can’t win by insisting they check EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BOX on a list of wishes that Jesus Christ himself could not fulfill. And when the purity brigade sits out this time like last time, and give us four more years of Trump, they will, just like they have with Hillary, blame Biden instead of the people truly responsible, themselves. So over this party of very determined failure.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@tobie:
I think Harris is the most conventionally charismatic of our candidates. I find Warren’s earnest, “let’s take a selfie!” dorkiness charismatic, but I know even here a lot of people don’t. I know from my own social circle the affection people have for Biden is real, the idea that he “cares about people like me”. I think he’s a rickety boat, but he may be the one we have to get on
The Moar You Know
Also, done commenting here for at least the next week until I get home. I’m on mobile over here in the UK and the commenting system, at least for mobiles, is fucking broken but good. I should not have to write out my comments on a text editor and hope that I can cut n paste it all in with the proper reply link before the box glitches out and I have to just reload the page, losing all my entry.
iPhone running Chrome if it helps anyone.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Thanks.
CaseyL
Donating my old car to charity is turning out to be a lot harder than I thought.
The first time I tried was a few months ago, when I was still working full time, and the tow company seemed to have trouble with the concept of “either come by when I’m here or arrange an unattended pickup.” After they failed to respond to my third request to arrange for an unattended pickup, I gave up.
The second time was today, just now, when the tow truck guy called to say his truck had broken down.
The thing is, I am really fond of the old Honda. She has some cosmetic damage, and needs a new battery and a new AC system – the latter being something I can’t afford – but is otherwise a wonderful car. Somehow I think the universe is telling me not to get rid of her.
realbtl
I’d like to see a Venn diagram of the “Can’t I have a day without drama” folks and the “Biden won’t pass radical reforms” type. I suspect a large overlap of people who miss the point of Biden’s candidacy.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m still objectively pro-Warren and Bailey. She has no peer left, for me. We’ll see some poll pogoing in the next couple months, I suspect.
tobie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Cory Booker can give a barn burner of a speech. If there’s anyone “conventionally charismatic” in the race, I’d say it’s him. I never found that with Harris at all, and I’ve heard her speak live, but that’s what makes horse-racing, I guess. We Democrats were spoiled in having two Presidents–Obama and Bill Clinton–who were some of the best orators in recent memory. Adam Schiff has enormous verbal gifts and is nimble and quick on his feet but he’s not running and we need him in the House running investigations. If we come to a brokered convention, though, he’s my choice.
Kay
Bobby Thomson
@tobie: he did lose to the most hated man in the Senate.
Kay
lumpkin
We can all thank Joe Biden for firmly establishing the bipartisan principle that subpoenas can be ignored if we think that they are politically motivated.
clay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
So I guess in Cenk Uygur’s world, Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump don’t exist? Or does he think that if Nancy wasn’t “killing” M4A and GND that, what, they’d be so overwhelmingly popular that Mitch would HAVE to pass it and Trump would HAVE to sign it?
What a tool. What a fucking tool. Nancy knows exactly what’s possible, and she’s not going to waste capital on pie-in-the-shy dreams that will a) die in the Senate and b) will show up in anti-Democrat ads in 2020.
Tool.
Baud
@clay: Cenk takes comfort in the fact that he will never be asked by voters to do anything of significance.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Very interesting observation. Thanks for this. I think it says much about Biden’s enduring appeal. And also, perhaps, why Trump was so insistent on smearing Biden as corrupt.
zhena gogolia
@The Moar You Know:
I agree.
Baud
@lumpkin:
Too bad. Trump was just about to waver!
CaseyL
@clay: I’m not sure what it takes to be so perfectly ignorant of politics while claiming to be a political activist, but that attitude is unfortunately everywhere on the goddamned “progressive left.”
During 2016, I got into a FB argument with a (former) friend who was, as usual, blaming Democrats for not getting anything through Congress. I noted that it’s the majority leader and whip who decide the agenda, and the GOP was in charge of both Congress and Senate. He replied back “Fail!” – whatever the fuck that meant – so I said “So you don’t know how Congress functions at all, do you? You’ve been so passionate about politics, I thought you knew something as elementary as that. I’m totally gobsmacked at the extent of your ignorance,” and unfriended him shortly thereafter.
pamelabrown53
@joel hanes:
While Biden was NOT my first choice (Kamala was) or second (before Warren painted herself into Bernie’s M4All corner-IMO, she doesn’t have the requisite political instincts), I genuinely like Biden. I think he exudes decency and warmth.
How I’ve come to terms with his possible nomination is that his vast knowledge and experience will allow him to rebuild the institutions that IMPOTUS has decimated.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@eclare: Abrams, I expect – and heartily endorse!
Stacy Abrams on the ticket could really help in Georgia – where we have two Senate races that we should absolutely be fighting for!
With enough voter turnout, we can win Georgia in 2020, despite Republicans’ voter suppression and barriers to voting.
tobie
@Bobby Thomson: Cruz is hated in general but liked in TX. Go figure. Beto did manage to get more votes in TX than any previous Democrat (4.025 million) and did so in an off-year election outpacing both HRC in 2016 and Obama in 2008 and 2012. That’s something. I know it’s fashionable to mock him, and the press and BJ did so in spades, but he created a movement in Texas which is paying off dividends for the party in the state There’s a special election for a TX state House seat on Jan 28 which Dems now have a chance of winning, though it’s been in the hands of Republicans for years. A small donation would go a long way…
OzarkHillbilly
I’m not cheap, but I can be had.
zhena gogolia
Oh, Gawd, Bret Stephens is sh–tting the bed again.
zhena gogolia
@tobie:
I was open to Beto but he didn’t distinguish himself in the primary season or at the debates. His best moment was “WTF.” I still like him but didn’t think he was ready for the presidency.
mrmoshpotato
@zhena gogolia: Oh do tell! What’s Bretbug being stupidly offended about now, and is he going to tell our moms on us?
James E Powell
@JaySinWA:
It’s similar to the Trump pass because the press/media figure, “he’s pissing off everyone who we don’t like, so we’ll let him go.” That’s my guess, anyway, because I can’t believe the same press/media who savage everyone else to left of the Wall Street are letting a socialist off the hook.
tobie
@zhena gogolia: I missed the first debate which I gather he bombed but in the next two I thought he did very well and that he kinda stole the show in the Houston debate. If we measured candidates on debate performances HRC would have been President. Heck, she might have won the nomination in 2008. She’s the best debater the party’s had, probably because she understands how government works better than just about anyone. This year’s primary has not been about debates or really policy, proposals notwithstanding. It’s been about the hype you could generate, and Beto’s campaign was not good at that at all.
dnfree
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@tobie: we first saw Adam Schiff on PBS several years ago. After the third time or so, we said “He should run for President.”
James E Powell
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The press/media, led by the NYT, will treat each and every one of these things as ten times more important than Trump’s lunacy or his daily criminal activities.
germy
rikyrah
@trollhattan:
He had a HEART ATTACK.
WON’T release his medical records…
and, I’m not supposed to be concerned..
sure.
PS-where are the mofo’s tax returns
germy
rikyrah
@Kay:
He has limited Black and Latino support, Kay.
I don’t get why folks don’t grasp that, and why, after 5 years running, THAT should be a HUGE issue.
rikyrah
@zhena gogolia:
why?
Rivers
If Bernie is the nominee, I will vote for him – because I will vote for any sentient being over Trump. However, he comes across to me (a woman) as an angry old man who yells. I neither like him nor trust him. However, he is a sentient being.
germy
@rikyrah: Quoted a white supremacist in his latest nyt essay.
Some really nasty stuff:
Kay
@rikyrah:
It is a huge issue but Biden has huge issues too-
he’s the kiss of death with young people, for example :)
If it’s B v B we have to look at the whole thing.
Kay
@rikyrah:
Conversly, Biden is very popular with 65 and up and since they vote in higher rates we care about them more. We do. They get more attention because they come out.
And it’s not my fault that young people have such low turnout. It’s their fault. If they would vote at 60% they’d have a lot more power.
Baud
While I agree with everyone else that it’s hard to not see this coming down to Biden and Bernie as the top two, you add up their poll numbers and they barely get to 50%. Lots of voters our there who still have to decide or switch who they support.
Baud
@Kay:
Most young people are simply not that political yet. I’m sure it’s frustrating to the ones who are.
Martin
I still don’t like this answer. You comply with the subpoena, but you aren’t required to answer. I don’t mean invoking your 5th amendment right, but you don’t need to acknowledge the question is valid.
I don’t think there’s any circumstance where a subpoena shouldn’t be complied with.
MomSense
Well my neighbor just dropped off two tickets to see the Classical Mystery Tour: a symphonic tribute to the Beatles. Cool.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: According to polls cited in an NPR article I read the other day, Sanders has pulled ahead of Biden among Latinos, and that could help him because CA and TX are voting earlier. I can try to find the link if you’re interested.
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: So does this one.
PenAndKey
It absolutely is. I’m in my early 30s and have been heavily engaged politically since I was about 17. To this day I can count the number of classmates and childhood friends who pay any attention to politics on one hand. And those that do? Half of them are country bumpkins who get all their news from Fox, or did until I cut most of them out of my life for being batshit insane.
It gets into dangerous territory, but we’re rapidly approaching the point where entire chunks of our government are, at their core, illegitimate and run by revaunchist insurrectionists. The question isn’t if there’s a circumstance where a subpoena should be ignored, but if we can acknowledge we’re in the middle of a crisis of legitimacy situation.
Mary G
@Baud: I agree it’s still wide open. Normal people are still not paying that much attention.
Kathleen
@zhena gogolia: I’m with you. I don’t want to put a lot of energy to the idea, however. It would depress me more than I could bear.
Kathleen
@Emma: A. Freakin’. Men. And Women! I so agree with you.
Mary G
O/T this guy is out of control:
mrmoshpotato
@MomSense: Wow. That sounds really cool. (Sorry this sounds sarcastic. It’s not.)
Kathleen
@MomSense: I don’t do dystopia. If I can’t flush it or plug it in I’m screwed.
Brachiator
@jc:
I posted this in a previous thread in response to a similar comment.
It’s odd. Trump is dishonest and a crook. But he is adamant about pushing the the idea that Joe Biden is the one who is dishonest, not the president. Trump wants to destroy Biden’s “Good ol’ Joe” image. And so, Trump may overrule Moscow Mitch’s ideas about how this should go.
Consider: this whole Ukraine nonsense is about the transitive property of a smear. It goes from Hunter Biden did something illegal to Joe Biden is corrupt. Even though this is obviously a lie, and Biden was not involved in anything, and certainly had no control over his son’s decisions.
So people can choose whatever aspect of this they don’t like, nepotism, kids of the famous using their parents’ names to their own advantage, conflict of interest, influence peddling. It is all vague and amorphous, but designed to always lead to the conclusion that “Joe Biden himself is corrupt and did something (we don’t know what) wrong.”
mrmoshpotato
@Mary G: Racist Bretbug is telling all of our moms on us! LOL what a POS.
Barbara
@Martin: Are you kidding? Here is an example: I represented a researcher who was subpoenaed by the government because she had interviewed Islamic extremists and they wanted to use her research to launch an investigation. I guess she was just supposed to turn it all over. When researching this, I found lots of similarly outrageous examples of abusive and burdensome subpoenas.
No, it is not imperative that every person comply with every subpoena.
Baud
@Brachiator:
You’re the
puppetcrook!Kathleen
@WaterGirl: Context is very helpful. I never thought of our national plight in terms of Maslow’s hierarchy but it rings true.
Fair Economist
@clay:
Cenk Uygur knows what’s up. He’s funded by Republicans, and he’s spewing BS to try to discourage and confuse lefties. Real lefties like Noam Chomsky support mainstream Democrats as necessary to keep out the neofascists, and know that Pelosi is not the block to progressive policies and indeed has gotten quite a laundry list through the House this term.
James E Powell
@Brachiator:
What’s worse is that they all seem to believe that the only reason Bernie doesn’t win in a landslide is that he is being sabotaged by the Evil Democratic Establishment.
pablo
Unfortunately the crappy answer will live in infamy.
Kraux Pas
@The Moar You Know:
I disagree. I think he’s the biggest risk to lose the general. He has supported policies his entire career that favored finance over labor, incarcerated various minorities for no good reason, dumb as fuck wars, and he lies about his fellow candidates.
He’s been enabling the worst elements in our politics for years. He doesn’t seem to have learned either, arguing that Rs will have an epiphany if Trump loses. Please.
Sure he polls better now. That changes and has a lot to do with the media propping him up. Every time we go with the media’s annointed safe choice, we lose. Biden will lose. And he’ll give the GOP an opportunity to make inroads with younger voters.
Kathleen
@Mike in NC: Excellent book. I read it several years ago.
mrmoshpotato
@James E Powell: Hillary beating Wilmer like a rented mule is proof the primaries were rigged against him!
Kathleen
@debbie: The Cincinnati Germans eat sauerkraut and mashed potatoes on New Years Day.
MisterForkbeard
@James E Powell: I have some problems with Bernie as a candidate, but he’d be okay. Certainly much better as President than Trump.
But I’m adult enough to realize that a huge portion of my dislike of Bernie is that I really, really hate his supporters I speak with online. They’re just about as deluded and entitled as Trump voters, and stick to a similar level of totally nutso and debunked claims. Bernie himself isn’t bad, but the people he enables are fucking awful.
I suppose the biggest difference between the BernieBros and Trump voters is that the Bros mostly have their hearts in the right place.
mrmoshpotato
@Kathleen: No encased meats?! The heathens!
Kathleen
@James E Powell: Don’t you find that curious? My personal opinion is that media love him because he hates Democrats.
debbie
@tobie:
I can’t remember if you were around when people were talking about it, but did you see Hillary being interviewed by Howard Stern? It’s well worth watching/listening to. It’s at youtube, about 2.5 hours long (broken into five parts). Avoid the comments. Most people regret they hadn’t seen this side of her during the campaign or they might have voted differently. Very few MAGAts commented, though, which was a relief.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kraux Pas: With all due respect, I think that you reacting to a caricature of Biden pushed by the left. There is a reason he is supported by labor and AA voters, and it isn’t that they are dumb.
Betty Cracker
@Barbara: I’m not a lawyer, but isn’t the proper response in that scenario to contest a subpoena (or have it quashed or whatever the proper terminology is) rather than just refuse to comply? The former is following the rule of law, and the latter is, well, Trumpian.
Kathleen
@mrmoshpotato: OMG I left off the encased meats! Yes they eat those also! Thanks for the reminder!!!!
debbie
@Kathleen:
My mother’s family came from Germany, and that’s what she made every New Year’s Day (plus a pork roast). Invariably, the sink got clogged up from all the potato peelings, but it was all very tasty.
Kraux Pas
@Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, did I call anyone dumb?
And is it a caricature or his voting record? PATRIOT Act that was full of things he had wanted to do for years, the bankruptcy bill, wars of choice during the Bush years, the tough (dumb) on crime 80s and 90s, his own damn words about being able to work with Rs thisnelection cycle (cuz they’re so damn reasonable). The one thing I prefer about him to other candidates is his approach to healthcare and he even managed to fuck that up by getting up on stage and lying about Harris’s plan. And he’s just generally inappropriate.
I’m sorry but he’s our worst viable option as I see it. Can you tell me the last time Dems nominated the safe choice and won?
James E Powell
@debbie:
Vepro knedlo zelo – Pork roast, dumplings, sauerkraut with caraway seeds. Some say Czech but my grandmother always called herself and her family Bohemian.
James E Powell
@Kathleen:
Agree completely. Slamming Democrats has been the best way to get positive press/media attention for over 30 years.
raven
@debbie: Collards and black-eyed peas.
tobie
@debbie: thanks. I heard it was a great interview and I’ve been meaning to watch it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kraux Pas: I didn’t accuse you of calling people dumb. I suggested that labor and AA voters have reasons beyond name recognition for supporting Biden.
It is clear that you don’t care for him, but I don’t think he is the awful person some do.
Villago Delenda Est
@James E Powell: It can’t possibly be that Bernie is simply an asshole, now can it?
Dorothy A. Winsor
Mr DAW is watching Myth Busters. I assume it’s a rerun, but if it’s new, these guys did not learn their lesson the time they shot a cannon ball through some guy’s house.
debbie
@raven:
I’ve been eating collards for the last few New Years and still haven’t found wealth. I think I’ll try lentils this year. On New Year’s Day.
Kraux Pas
@Omnes Omnibus:
You may want to reread your post. And I didn’t say it was name recognition. The media is constantly promoting him as the safe, electable choice and people are afraid. I get it, but someone gets that electable designation every four years. The Dems usually choose that person. That person seems to lose the GE pretty damn routinely.
Martin
And I think that the way to handle this is to not join those who are rendering the government illegitimate by ignoring their right to subpoena, but to comply and call them out during the hearing.
The current approach is not working – it’s only making it worse. I mean, the President committed a felony on Twitter today, and there are no repercussions or even outrage about it.
jeffreyw
For New Years we went with hoppin john after watching Chalky White wanting a batch on Boardwalk Empire.
mrmoshpotato
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Mythbusters ended a few years ago. ? So yes, it’s a rerun.
JPL
@Mary G: Morning Joe will gladly have him on.
Martin
@debbie: We always ate it eve. The superstition is that you have lucky years, so you want to build up your luck when the new year starts and that’ll carry the whole year.
debbie
@Martin:
Okay then. Back to NYE!
JPL
@Martin: A felony on twitter? wuh! tell me more without going to his feed or skimming today’s comments.
Yarrow
@tobie:
I apologize that my comment came off as condescending. That was not my intent. Tone on the internet can be challenging. I can’t speak to what you’ve read or who you’ve spoken with, but I have seen nothing to indicate that a path to the Democratic nominee winning the presidency would go through Texas in 2020. The path still goes through the rust belt states and if Texas flips (unlikely) those states will have voted Dem.
Beto certainly isn’t the guy who would turn Texas blue in a presidential race. You are correct that he increased turnout and got closer than any statewide Dem candidate in years. However, looking at his Senate race he did not turn out voters in the areas and demographics needed to win the state in a presidential race. The reaction in Texas to his presidential candidacy, even among people who were very big Beto for Senate supporters, was generally some version of “Huh?”, “Why?” or “Well, I guess we’ll see what happens.” The big enthusiasm for him as a Senate candidate was not there for him as a presidential candidate.
Texas is turning purple but the state turning blue is another cycle or two or three off unless there is a massive blue wave as some reaction to Trump. Could happen but it’ll be because of some outside issue like that. The real action in Texas now is at the district level, both statewide and federal. Districts were flipped in 2018 and several more are possibilities in 2020. Beto is now focusing on the state legislature, which is great because if that flips Texas will be that much closer to turning blue. It’s also key for redistricting.
sab
@debbie: We are having baked saurkraut and regular mash potatoes for luck, and also because we like them. We have them on other days in winter just because we like them. My mother always used to put pork chops on top to bake with the saurkraut, but we don’t eat pork.
My late father in law always used to look for an auspicious small stone in the neighborhood. Late on New Year’s Eve he would bring the new stone into the house, and put the old stone outside in its place, for luck. Lovely weird custom.
I can never remember which stone (usually a large pebble) was last year’s, so I don’t always get the correct one back outside.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
I think they should add that as a new article of impeachment.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Yarrow: Even if our pres candidate doesn’t win Texas, the coattails from a serious contest could really help flip the state leg. That would be so critical for redistricting and voter rights.
Barbara
@Betty Cracker: It depends. You can also decide to force the other party to compel compliance. Which one you do depends a lot on circumstances. If I were Biden I would do what he did, which is to call a political stunt exactly what it is.
Yarrow
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Yes, but the person to do that isn’t Beto. It never was.
James E Powell
@Martin:
Can you say what that’s about? I’m not going to read his twitter.
CarolPW
@James E Powell: Not sure what Martin meant, but it could be that the fat one retweeted the whistleblower’s name.
zhena gogolia
@James E Powell:
He outed the whistle blower.
@mrmoshpotato:
Sorry I missed you. He’s doing some meditating on why Ashkenazi Jews are so smart.
NormsDoNotEnforceThemselves
@Betty Cracker: Betty is right that Biden’s initial refusal to comply with a subpoena undermines the effort to maintain the rule of law and to compel Trump officials to testify. In general, I believe Biden’s instinct to be aggressively combative when questioned about Ukraine is a tremendous vulnerability when trying to persuade members of the public who have not been paying close attention. Instead of acting as if he had something to hide, he should seize the opportunity to set the record straight: most notably, his actions as VP vis-à-vis Ukraine – unlike Trump’s requested “favor” – were part of considered US foreign policy in coordination with the EU. I agree with Biden that the Republicans only want him to testify to create a ridiculous sideshow. Refusing to appear, however, can be portrayed either as proof of assumed guilt (adverse inference) or as evidence that the Democrats are not willing to allow Republicans to call their so-called “witnesses”. Thus, instead of refusing to appear, the solution is to insist that the rules for the Senate trial permit witnesses, the House Managers, and other interested parties the right to object to lines of questioning that are not germane to the Articles of Impeachment – i.e. Trump’s actions.
mrmoshpotato
@zhena gogolia: I see. I also see that Bretbug did tell our moms on all of us.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Mary G: He’s a real bedbug.
dimmsdale
@CaseyL: This is from someone who hangs onto stuff far far too long (“well, someday I’ll download the user manual and fix it all up like new”) but my understanding is that when you “donate” your car, the next stop for the tow truck is the crusher. If it were me, perhaps I’d check at my church & see if there was a less well-off parishioner who could use a relatively reliable vehicle. Friend of mine got one too many parking tickets in Manhattan and GAVE his Honda to a busboy at the restaurant we were playing at. GAVE. Busboy was beyond thrilled.
Barbara
@NormsDoNotEnforceThemselves: A subpoena, even a grand jury subpoena, is a request for information that invokes a specific set of procedures for enforcement or quashing. You can ignore a subpoena without breaking the “rule of law.” If you are a party to a case it is generally a bad idea to ignore a subpoena, but a third party, especially one who isn’t even a witness, might very well force the issuing party to go to court to prove the need for compelling testimony. Having researched this extensively as noted above, many subpoenas are issued as a fishing expedition, and it is no small matter to hire lawyers to combat a clearly abusive request for collateral information, and in this case, one that is motivated by political gamesmanship not a search for facts. The rule of law is not a slave master. People do have rights and I say good for Joe Biden for pushing back.
J R in WV
@Martin:
I’m sure he did, he does it so often. But I missed today’s felony, so could you spell it out for a guy who had to go get food today, rather than staying connected to the innertubes all day???
thanks in advance!
J R in WV
@dimmsdale:
We donated an F-150 to a local “good news garage” which had the brakes frozen. They sent out a flatbed, took it back to their garage, and 2 or 3 months later got a great card from the beneficiary who got that truck to drive to work every day. There was even a picture of the family standing in front of the repaired truck.
I used to make good use of a PU truck, but I’m past all that now. Retired, disabled. Can barely take care of me and the wife, let alone do work you need a truck for.
But we both got a warm feeling when we got that thank you card with the picture of the family who benefited from our donation. To us it was a junk truck in the way, that would cost us to get rid of. Thanks to the Good News Garage for their good work!
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
I see in other comments that Trump allegedly identified a person as the “whistleblower” — in which case that should be Article of impeachment #3, added to the two already passed by the House.
That list can keep on growing as long as Moscow Mitch keeps on holding off on an agreement for the Senate Trial.
NormsDoNotEnforceThemselves
@Barbara: You are right that anyone can seek to set aside a subpoena or have it limited to a reasonable scope relevant to the proceedings at hand. This is not, however, what Biden said he would do: he said he would not comply. That position gives Trump and his minions an excuse not to comply either.
Biden is completely right that the only “witnesses” who should be called are those who can testify to matters germane to the Articles of Impeachment. Given the deference that Courts traditionally give to Congress in this area, however, I am not sure if Biden can have a Congressional subpoena quashed (… by this Supreme Court). Thus, I think the best solution is to commit to compliance – while also stressing, as Ozark Hillbilly advocated, that Trump must also be willing to appear. For me, the key is to ensure that the Senate trial rules only permit lines of questioning relevant to the Articles of Impeachment (Trump’s conduct). If the rules allow the presiding officer to quash a subpoena that is clearly going to an irrelevant “witness” (like Biden), I would support that too.
My main point was that I believe Biden’s emotional refusal to engage the issue of Ukraine will hurt him (especially when the lawfulness of Biden’s actions on behalf of the Obama administration stands in damning contrast to Trump’s renegade effort to use his foreign policy powers for his political benefit). For context, even though I come from a conservative part of the country, most of my relatives atypically voted for Hillary or a third-party candidate because they could not vote for Trump. In recent weeks, however, I have had repeated arguments with them about whether Biden should testify – even when I say that he is not a real witness to the issue at hand (Trump’s abuse of power), they maintain that Biden should testify if he has nothing to hide. As I said in my first post, I am afraid that Biden’s refusal to confront the false allegations directly will backfire for those who are not paying close attention.
Barbara
@NormsDoNotEnforceThemselves: It is impossible to game this out, and it is inherently a political calculation at this point. IMHO, Biden should not be the first one down the rabbit hole and I don’t mind him saying so.