Senator Chris Murphy assesses the situation:
Pompeo just said “Americans in the region are much safer today”.
That’s obviously not true. We are immediately evacuating all Americans from Iraq.
At this perilous moment, the Administrarion must be truthful about what they did and the consequences.
This isn’t a good start. https://t.co/MLcC6wqXZn
— Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) January 3, 2020
I don’t know much about Iran, except that the country is a horrifying theocracy (as is Saudi Arabia). I don’t know what they’re likely to do in response to the U.S. assassination of the Iranian general. But if they’re smart, the Iranians will use Trump’s reputation as a belligerent idiot to paint the U.S. as a rogue state, undermine any remaining support for sanctions and strike trade deals.
Iran has vowed “harsh revenge,” and people are understandably spooked by the prospect of terrorist attacks and the U.S. being drawn into a wider conflict, with proxies joining the melee. Maybe the Iranians really mean it.
But while we know we in the U.S. don’t have rational leadership at the moment, the question is: does Iran?
On The Road – Wag – The Wilson Group, Part 2
Baud
Much like Republicans here, my guess is that Iran’s leaders first priority will be to use this opportunity to silence dissent from reformers and rally the population to the government’s cause.
crm114
Iran has a habit of electing sane leadership, who the US goes out of its way to humiliate, whereupon they get replaced by hardliners.
germy
reader comment over at LGM:
germy
Jacob Wohl said he’ll enlist if Trump ever invades Iran.
Elizabelle
I think this looks like a good day to stay off the internet.
Spanky
@Baud: Right. Then the next question is, will the inevitable harsh rhetoric that they’ll employ spur Trump to do something really stupid?
I wish that question wasn’t rhetorical.
wjs
Have we been greeted as liberators yet? Why are gas prices surging? Why aren’t any of these enthusiastic Trump supporters enlisting in the military?
It’s 2003 all over again, and I wonder when all the liberals on my teevee are going to be fired.
Immanentize
@Baud:
And they will be successful because they were attacked, not the attackers (this time)
germy
We’ll be greeted as liberators?
Baud
@germy: Aren’t we still waiting for Sean Hannity to be waterboarded?
@Spanky: The sun rising in the morning makes Trump do something really stupid
germy
Wow. I didn’t know actual footage existed of Trump’s Nostradamus act:
Immanentize
@Spanky: Trump has his name on soft targets all over the world where Shia and pro-Iranian people/men with battle experience live and work. I fear an age of retaliations. Sinn Fein and the troubles writ large — like ‘global’ large.
Chyron HR
@wjs:
REPUBLICANS START ILLEGAL WAR? WHY DA EVIL WIBBAWULS DO THAT??
Oops, that probably violates Mistermix’s demand that we be respectful to the followers of Bernie at all times or else.
Betty Cracker
Not long after Trump was installed in the Oval Office, valued commenter Le Comte, etc., observed that Trump properties worldwide would be an excellent target for groups that wanted to goad the U.S. into catastrophically stupid military action on foreign soil. I sure wouldn’t park my ass in Trump Tower Istanbul today (well, any day, but you know what I mean…).
germy
I just wanted to check in with a lunatic, to get his point of view. Always good to consider all viewpoints:
Spanky
From WaPo. Leaving us to wonder what “escalation” would look like.
Fair Economist
If you discuss this with persuadables , remember to phrase it right. Trump’s foolish attack has forced us to retreat from Iraq, with this call for all Americans to leave.
Another Scott
Latest from AlJazeera:
Grrr….
Cheers,
Scott.
khead
It’s going to be kinda fun watching the Trumpies I know wrestle with the idea of war in Iran while reading their 401K statement from 2019. I mean, an actual war isn’t the kind of “We’re winning the trade war with China” bullshit we’ve been seeing. There might be some actual consequences. This is not a fucking reality TV show.
bemused
@germy:
That is just mindblowing.
WaterGirl
@Chyron HR:
I saw the Bernie threads yesterday, but I must have missed that. Do we have a link?
Roger Moore
@Immanentize:
If the worst thing that comes out of this is attacks on Trump-branded properties worldwide, I will count us extremely lucky.
Barbara
Iran is a theocracy, but unlike Saudi Arabia, Iran has a long tradition in the wider world of commerce and education that makes their population more amenable to western updates, e.g., democratically elected representatives, rather than being ruled by a single family (House of Saud). Saudi Arabia is basically a tribal society that found itself on top of a money bomb that has allowed it to perpetuate a medieval social and religious structure that is largely impervious to outside influence. Whereas, Iranians who are younger than 30 are among the least religiously active Muslims in the world. One thing Obama understood was that the antipathy between Iran and Saudi Arabia was largely a theological power struggle that we have no interest in.
hells littlest angel
Is there a stupider, less rational, more dishonest world leader than ours? I can’t think of anyone.
Too bad it won’t be only Trump supporters who get hurt in days to come.
Cheryl Rofer
@germy: Roses and baklava
Cheryl Rofer
@khead: They are probably invested in defense stocks and cheering
WaterGirl
I knew 2020 was going to feel like a long slog, but I thought yesterday was the 3rd. So on day 2, the year already felt like day 3. From that I conclude that 2020 has already felt 50% longer than it really is. :-)
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: It’s his front-page post of 10:16 am yesterday entitled “Under the Radar.”
grubert
“Horrifying theocracy”
We get stories of awful things that happen there.
They hear stories of awful things that happen here.
Not making a lazy equivalence, just cautioning against throwing stones.
lee
We targeted a cabinet level administration official for assassination.
Hasn’t that been against our policy for quite some time? Against international Law?
Killing him in Iraq would be comparable to killing our Sec Def in Canada, right?
I really wouldn’t want to be an administration official right about now.
CaseyL
Oh, I’d say the US has been a rogue nation since 2003, at least.
The Obama years were an interregnum, nothing more.
kindness
TrumpCo obviously thinks assassinating leaders around the world is great for their re-election. No doubt their base believes that (those saps believe the most unbelievable stuff out there (Q Anon)). The rest of us? We pray the Iranians don’t start killing people here as payback. How our MSM plays this out will probably determine what most oblivious Americans think. I have a bad feeling…….
germy
@Gin & Tonic:
I didn’t see anything here to disagree with:
khead
@Cheryl Rofer:
The folks I’m talking about aren’t out betting on Raytheon this morning. They don’t have that kind of cash. Just saying they have been living in a bit of fantasyland with our reality TV IMPOTUS.
PeakVT
You don’t even know that.
Foreign countries are never as simple as we want them to be.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
On another note, Kangaroo Island on the South Coast (not far from Adelaide) is going to completely burn out. It’s the home of an invaluable wildlife preserve.
The Southern Ocean Lodge is gone, and the remaining staff that evacuated guests and tried to stave off a bit of fire retreated to a safety bunker and has now completely out of communication.
This was named the best hotel in Australia – wife was just there a few months ago and is really devastated – this was a showcase property that she booked often.
https://southernoceanlodge.com.au/
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@germy: I just lost brain cells reading that.
Barbara
@PeakVT: I second this. Iran is so different from Saudi Arabia that calling them the same is basically an exercise in not caring to investigate or consider the many, many ways in which they are vastly different. For one thing, Iran has at least three times the population, and its “theocratic” orientation is very recent. If you watch the movie Persepolis, try counting the number of scenes in which any of the characters’ actions could have taken place in Saudi Arabia. They are not the same.
MattF
My guess is that Trump sees this as solving his Bolton problem. As for what will happen in Iran, no one knows. Bear in mind, though, that the ‘Fountain of Blood’ is a landmark in a Tehran cemetery.
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I visited Kangaroo Island in 2010 (post-Worldcon tour of Australia). No words.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Ah. Yes, I read that thread. I didn’t interpret that as mistermix demanding that we be respectful to the followers of Bernie at all times or else.
As 13-year-old WaterGirl said to WaterGirl’s mom: “Respect is given where respect is due.”
Looking back, it is a bit of a miracle to me that 13-year-old WG ever made it to 14.
Another Scott
Kaine.senate.gov:
Good, good.
I’m sure Moscow Mitch will get right on that at noon today when the Senate returns.
Grr…. :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
Matt McIrvin
Iran’s different from Saudi Arabia: instead of a theocratic absolute monarchy, it’s a theocratic semi-democracy. Power is shared between elected officials and religious authorities. My impression is that in recent decades, the religious authorities have actually been less likely to want any trouble.
WaterGirl
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Fuck.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Can you imagine a commenter here exaggerating something for dramatic effect? I mean, really…
Lapassionara
@WaterGirl: And it’s a leap year, so we have an extra day!
So so much winning.
WaterGirl
@PeakVT: @Barbara: Betty didn’t say the two countries are the same. She said they are both horrifying theocracies. I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin:
Agreed. Iran is also better for women than KSA. I have come across many Iranian graduate students and undergrads who were women in STEM but not a single female student fromSaudi Arabia.
Iran is Shia dominated and Saudi Arabia is Sunni.
WaterGirl
@Lapassionara: Who knew we would get the extra day on day 2! Surprise!
chris
The last two cords of winter wood arrived yesterday afternoon, dumped unceremoniously in front of the hovel. I’m going out to stack it now. If someone could restart this decade while I’m out that’d be great.
Betty Cracker
@WaterGirl:
That’s because he made no such demand.
Starfish
@Cheryl Rofer: If they do not bring sohan and halvah, they do not like you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
Why’s he waiting? his ‘god-emperor’ (as he’s apparently called on pro-trump sites) has increased troop levels in KSA, Afghanistan, Syria and now Iraq. They’ll find a place for him.
MattF
@Matt McIrvin: I’ve gathered that Iran’s ruling class is multi-centric, driven by ideologies and by personal likes or dislikes. It’s unlikely that even the insiders can predict what will happen now.
ETA: And I’m quite sure that Trump doesn’t get this. He would assume it’s like KSA.
Kelly
Xeni Jardin expressed my feelings better than I can
https://twitter.com/xeni/status/1212945105838960640
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: That comment upthread seemed pissy to me. Or, as the dictionary defines it, arrograntly argumentative.
I don’t see the value of throwing gasoline on what is already a hot fire at balloon juice. Stirring the pot is not my thing.
It didn’t seem right to let it stand. Or, alternatively, if mistermix had indeed said that, I wanted to be aware of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
this sounds like the kind of thing they should have planned more carefully for…
Get out now. We blew up the aiport. We can’t help you. You might wanna hotfoot it down to Kuwait and hope for the best.
OzarkHillbilly
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He’s waiting for it to start hoping it’s over by the time he gets out of basic. He’s not too good at math either.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@hedgehog the occasional commenter:
As I understand, koalas are now functionally extinct in the wild – their primary habitats are burned out and there aren’t sufficient numbers to replace or extend. Human overpopulation (shoutout to Reagan conservatives, JPII and Saudi Arabia for killing off those contraception and family planning efforts worldwide) and overconsumption doomed them.
At this point, braying Sydney energy speculators probably would be guffawing over their financial prowess in yachts in Sydney Harbour even as flames lick at Circular Quay.
We are a profoundly stupid race.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: More like this, please. (Meaning more senators and statesmen like Kaine.)
edit: It’s almost unbearable to contemplate the world we would have had with Clinton and Kaine, as compared to the cesspool that is the current timeline.
lamh36
Lordt…
When we got Geraldo as they voice of reason…
https://twitter.com/psddluva4evah/status/1213124042657599491?s=21
Another Scott
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, it’s a mess. But last I heard, the airport isn’t closed. (The attack was limited to his vehicle(s).)
It does look, though, like some flights are delayed.
https://flightaware.com/live/airport/ORBI
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Shorter:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
remember, Republicans are the Constitution-Respecters
mrmoshpotato
@Baud: Yeah. I was just thinking about Hannity’s promise to be waterboarded for charity.
cain
@grubert:
We are in a grips of a horrible theocracy ourselves.. that allows the caging of children. We have a strain of “christians” that is basically fucking us all over because they show up to vote and are willing to get grifted.
MattF
Oklahoma man heads for Florida.
gene108
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Kuwait, Dubai, UAE, are my thoughts of how to get out of Iraq by land, and then get a flight to wherever it is you want to go.
Gin & Tonic
I’m thinking it sure would be nice to know what Trump and Putin talked about on Sunday. Or what Pompeo talked to Bibi about on Monday.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: But don’t bother to make sure US citizens are safe.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl:
I have a colleague at work who writes emails. And we say that in every email is a “fuck you, idiot.” 15 flush MM guy uses the same technique — may be the same fellow for all I know. He says he doesn’t support Bernie, but he sure likes to throw fuck you advice and ad hominems against those who oppose BS. Actually makes me dislike Bernie more and work against him harder. Which may be interpreted as a ragegasm….
Citizen Alan
@kindness:
Seriously, at this point, does anyone doubt he’d be assassinating domestic opposition leaders here in the US if he thought he could get away with it?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: Christ, I thought it was just me.
cain
@Barbara:
Fuck, the reason they are a theocracy is because of us and British Petroleum. It always gets me that our foreign policy is why we are in trouble all the fucking time. Almost always that foreign policy is due to some American asshole companies and their right wing executive staff. We need to stop listening to companies as they are only worried about short term anything.
Citizen Alan
@germy:
The people who like Bernie are just left wing Teabaggers. Ignorant people with childishly simplistic views of economics and politics and who blame all the world’s problems on The Other. The only difference lies in which Other the demagogue wants to demonize.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: I read what you just wrote, and for the second time in a week I have found myself wishing I could use one of John’s favorite phrases, only one off from John’s own initials.
I shudder to think of the fear the nuns put into us that would leave a grown woman unable to utter a phrase because of teachings in Catholic school during grades 1-8.
mrmoshpotato
@Spanky: We truly live in the stupidest timeline!
Can we just evacuate Hill Valley and let the Trump trash crime family take it over?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Another Scott:
Amazing to think a nation state has a chain of command that includes succession.
Want to make a bet that’s why the US military up to this point didn’t kill this guy, because they knew another Iranian would take his place, they knew how Suliman thought and could anticipate his action.
germy
@Citizen Alan: Well, one of his supporters was caught mailing pipe bombs to Democrats.
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize:
I think that’s what email was invented for.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@germy: I can seriously picture when the diplomats and the generals started discussing consequences over this with the Trump and his buddies the reply was “you’re all fags”
Burnspbesq
@Chyron HR:
He knows what he can do with that demand.
germy
@Citizen Alan: Greedy billionaires and DINOs?
cain
Don’t worry, global warming will fix our population problem soon enough. As Agent Smith said, we are a virus. We spread from one place to another multiplying till there is nothing left. This planet will survive after all, we’re only a blip in its geological age. But our children, and the animals wlil suffer.
khead
@MattF:
Fuck Dan McLaughlin.
Roger Moore
@MattF:
Of course this kind of thing is true everywhere. We talk about absolute rulers, but there is really no such thing. Even an absolute monarch like Louis XIV or a dictator like Hitler can’t do everything themselves. They rely on a whole system under them to do the work, and the people in that system have their own interests. If the ruler just gives orders and ignores what his subordinates want, he’ll discover himself out of office (and usually dead) in a hurry. Instead, the ruler has to play the groups off against each other and, to a considerable extent, cater to their interests to keep them from rebelling. Even when there’s a ruthless secret police to enforce order, the ruler needs to cater to the secret police so they don’t turn on him. Whoever gives the ruler power- whether it be military, secret police, propaganda ministry, oil money, or what have you- has a measure of power over the ruler, since they always have the potential to turn that power against him.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: by all observable evidence, Down the Toilet MM uses every tool a good embedded troll uses to sow anger and dissent.
FIDO is my response to his posts. It don’t mean nothin’.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: It is truly a skill. Even when something has nothing to do with another, the guy will somehow twist his email into a shape that allows him to complain about ancient slights and enemies (read “Deans he didn’t like”).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Citizen Alan:
Harsh, but accurate, I think
Immanentize
@cain: In college I protested Apartheid and the Shah. .500 is excellent for a batting average.
15 flush mistermix
@Chyron HR:
My suggestion is that a few commenters stop being total assholes, but apparently it was lost on you.
Another Scott
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Who is Esmail Qaani:
(Emphasis added.)
So much for decapitating the leadership… :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Immanentize
@Citizen Alan: Well, his strategy (not personal, but staff-wide) has been to attack Warren whose policies are both more left and certainly more achievable (health care excepted) than the waggert’s proclamations.
15 flush mistermix
@Citizen Alan:
We’re talking about 20% of the Democratic electorate, you realize, don’t you?
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: Actually, email has a few purposes. Twitter was made for the fuck you.
Gravenstone
@germy: When did the syphilis eat your brain, Randy?
Joey Maloney
@Citizen Alan:
I have no evidence at this point that he doesn’t think he can get away with it. I hope Nancy Pelosi has good personal security.
StringOnAStick
@cain: Well said. You could even refine it down to “asshole oil companies”.
Citizen Alan
@15 flush mistermix:
Yes. Hence my despair over the future of this rotting corpse nation we live in.
15 flush mistermix
@Immanentize:
Pot, kettle.
Immanentize
@Roger Moore: See, e.g. Ceausescu. A ruthless ruler can keep it going until he can’t. (also, too, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi)
Felanius Kootea
Betty, if you haven’t already, read Marjane Satrapi’s graphic novels (Persepolis, etc.) about fleeing Iran as a teen after the Shah was deposed and the theocracy began. Many Iranians were very westernized.
I was fascinated by the scenes where she depicted women who had worn the shortest miniskirts now hiding under chadors – a change of clothing doesn’t change a person’s thinking or education level.
I fear that Trump mistakes Iran, a Shia “democratic” theocracy with Persian people as being similar to Saudi Arabia, a Sunni/Wahhabi monarchist theocracy with Arab people. They could not be more dissimilar. Vali Nasr’s book, “The Shia Revival” is very relevant still for understanding the rivalry between Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Iraq is a majority Shia country that was ruled by a Sunni minority until George W. Bush and Dick Cheney decided in their infinite ignorance to shift the balance of power. The Shias in Iraq have every reason to align with Iran and the US shouldn’t make the Cold War mistake of assuming everything Iraqi Shias do that the US doesn’t like or understand is orchestrated by Iran.
Immanentize
@15 flush mistermix: ha ha ha!
You know nothing!
Crashman06
@15 flush mistermix: I’m primarily a lurker, and have been for ten years or so, but I just have to chime in to say that it’s stunning to me that we literally cannot have a reasonable discussion about Bernie without a number of commenters completely devolving into total invective. I think what you said makes perfect sense; some folks around here really need to start thinking about dealing with the chance that he might secure the nomination. I understand why some people don’t like, or even hate him or some of his supporters, but we have to address his candidacy on realistic terms. Sure, this is just some blog on the internet, but the inability to talk about this worries me deeply.
Citizen Alan
@lamh36:
That clip is astounding. I never imagined in a million years we’d see anyone as staunchly pro-GOP as Geraldo Riviera openly yelling on Faux News that Bush lied us into the Iraq War.
Starfish
@lamh36: That broke my brain. The dude who was giving away the location of US troops by drawing a map in the sand is the voice of reason.
Barbara
@cain: Right. Theocrats were the only opposition force left standing in the wake of the Shah’s repression.
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: 20% of poll respondents isn’t the same as 20% of the democratic electorate. We’ll be lucky if 20% of the democratic electorate even votes in the primaries.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Crashman06:
okay: trump wins thirty-plus states in the EC and probably a solid popular vote, and we can kiss any hope of retaking the Senate goodbye
Mnemosyne
@15 flush mistermix:
Doesn’t matter now. Biden will be the nominee because he’s the only one who has any substantive foreign policy experience, and Trump just picked a fight with Iran.
15 flush mistermix
@Citizen Alan:
I was hoping that I didn’t have to be so clear about the irony of someone Othering 20% of the Democratic electorate by making some far-out claims about how ignorant they are, so let me be more clear: The only benefit of saying that Bernie supporters are “ignorant people with childishly simplistic views of economics and politics” is to give somebody a dim little feeling of moral superiority. Most of Bernie’s positions are similar to Warren’s, plus or minus some details, so saying that those positions are childishly simplistic is like saying that ~35% of the Democratic primary voting population are simpletons. It is also very similar to a Republican talking point, so there’s that.
sab
@Barbara: Yikes! Betty Cracker said that? I hope another FP posts something. Not everyone reads the comments.
15 flush mistermix
@Eolirin:
Sorry, should say 20% of the primary electorate, i.e., 20% of the most engaged Democrats who we need to keep engaged.
Citizen Alan
@Crashman06:
I hate him more than any non-Republican alive today and I’ll continue hating him until I die. He knew what was at stake in 2016. He fucking knew that we would either have the first liberal SCOTUS in 50 years or we would have an entrenched ultraconservative judiciary for generations to come. And still his monumental ego and selfish spite would not permit him to do anything other than undermine the Democratic nominee and the Democratic party at every opportunity. And he will do it again … unless, of course, the Democratic Party surrenders to him and his know-nothing cult, nominates him for President, and stands by as he loses to Trump in a Mondale-esque romp.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: funnily enough, FP is one of the areas I agree with Himself on, but his views would probably be even more unpopular than his health care and other domestic proposals.
StringOnAStick
@Felanius Kootea: Many years ago I had a friend who taught in Kuwait after having been some of the first westerners to do so in China in the 70’s. He spoke fluent Arabic and his wife was an OT who worked with 0 to 4 to babies there. He noted that while they were in Kuwait there was an obvious turn to religious conservatism and you could see it in the sudden lowering of hemlines. I’m poor women you could see the old creases fro! Their prior height. That this was leaking over from Iran even though Kuwait was dominated by Sunni’s was interesting.
Citizen Alan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You’re not pessimistic enough. Bernie will cost us the House too.
sab
@WaterGirl: At least Kaine is still in the Senate.
Mnemosyne
@Crashman06:
Bernie is not going to be the nominee. He doesn’t have the foreign policy experience that will now be required to do the job.
Betty Cracker
@Felanius Kootea: My paternal grandfather was career USAF, and after he retired at a relatively young age, he took a job with Bell Helicopter and lived abroad for several years, including a few in Iran. He was on the last plane out (or one of the last, we could never be sure) when the Shah regime fell. He had some interesting stories!
Betty Cracker
@sab: For fuck’s sake.
Another Scott
@Mnemosyne: Bill Clinton didn’t have any foreign policy experience to speak of.
Just sayin’.
Cheers,
Scott.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne: I wonder what Buttigieg will say about this in days to come. Will he go all Seth Moulton as the Man in a Uniform? (Shoot shoot).
If it comes down to the three B-Boys, as it looks like many people are really aiming to crush Warren, I may go with youth over death rattle. I am not happy how this is going.
Ocotillo
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hell, Eric Trump deleted a tweet that showed he had an idea of what was coming.
I wouldn’t be surprised if DT consulted the war criminal Gallagher for input since he would have better input then the intelligence professionals.
15 flush mistermix
@Citizen Alan:
I think this is a very telling comment, because for the commenters who really hate Bernie, he’s getting the blame for Clinton’s loss. To me, this is ridiculous. First, the whole 2016 primary indicated that the Democratic Party had a problem. Nobody was willing to step up and challenge Clinton other than no-chancers like Bernie, so the primaries weren’t the vibrant clash of ideas and personalities that we’re seeing this cycle, which would have been much better for the party, imo. Then, Bernie, who was basically a vessel for more left-wing views that Clinton, did pretty well, mainly because those views are attractive to a broad swath of the Democratic primary electorate. He was also pretty soft on Clinton, but any attack he made was treated as a crime against the party by Clinton supporters. Finally, in the general, Clinton was done in by a variety of factors, but most notably Comey’s intervention and the media’s incessant negative coverage, driven in part by their belief that Clinton was a sure winner.
If you want to blame Bernie for Clinton’s loss, that’s your right and privilege, but you’re dead wrong and narrow minded if you do.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@15 flush mistermix:
and when she loudly embraced his most ambitious program, she lost her momentum. Harris never recovered from her back-and-forth over private insurance. There might just be lessons to learn from that
Betty Cracker
@Another Scott: Nor did President Obama, but he had the good sense to oppose the Iraq War, so Democratic primary voters in 2008 trusted his FP instincts over Clinton’s.
Immanentize
@StringOnAStick:
When I was in Jerusalem in 2007, my friend there made the same observation. She pointed to a woman in full cover burka and said that no Palestinian woman would have dressed like that even five years before.
PenAndKey
@Mnemosyne: He’s not going to be the nominee, but the simple fact remains that he does have fans who vote, they’re (mostly) fellow Democratic voters, and going out of our way to piss them off and insult them as many commenters seem to be trying to do lately accomplish worse than nothing. It’s actively derailing legitimate conversations online and, more specifically, here on BJ.
The raw hostility by some commenters lately, and in this thread alone, to even the idea of keeping things civil is ugly. I try my best to ignore it and the subthreads it generates in the comments but I have no doubt it’s driving people away.
Another Scott
@Immanentize: ex-Mayor Pete seems to be sleeping in – nothing about this stuff on his Twitter feed yet.
Cheers,
Scott.
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: Given that we have really solid evidence that Sanders has been, and likely still is, being propped up by GRU, I would go with heavily propagandized rather than ignorant, but the assessment that a Sanders nomination would be a disaster for the country, even if he wins, is not unfounded.
And this blog is going to have absolutely zero measurable impact on anyone’s engagement. The concern trolling is dumb and misplaced. This is a place where people who are justifiably angry at Sanders are venting, not a place where organization and coordination of electoral strategy is occurring. No one here is running anyone’s campaign. Nothing said here on this topic matters.
Immanentize
@Another Scott: He has an opening if he is subtle. No evidence of that yet — except maybe waiting is good.
Baud
As I said in the earlier MM thread, if the FPs want to adopt general rules of civiliity and debate equally applicable to all candidates, I’ll play along. What I’m not going to do is treat one faction as more special or valuable than another, even if it’s the faction with which I’m more aligned as to policy.
Barbara
@WaterGirl: It plays into the idea that the two are equivalent for purposes of foreign policy when our policy has virtually nothing to do with whether or not they are theocratic in orientation.
PenAndKey
@Eolirin: You’re not wrong about Bernie, and I’ve had my own thoughts on how much he’s benefited from hostile campaigns for a while now, but “concern trolling”?
Alright, I’ll be blunt. Some of the commenters here are acting like rank assholes to anyone who they even perceive as disagreeing with them. They’re angry, they’re taking it out on community members, and as a long time reader, commenter, and occassional lurker when life gets busy it pisses me off. I’ve been here for years in large part because we. are. better. than. that.
If you don’t have a problem with hostile trolls and pile-ons take it to Twitter.
Crashman06
@PenAndKey: Thank you for saying this.
Baud
@15 flush mistermix:
There were many factors that led to her loss and Bernie isn’t the highest on the list, but I disagree that the way he conducted himself didn’t contribute.
Citizen Alan
@15 flush mistermix:
I blame Comey more than anyone else, but I will never forget as long as I live the 2016 Dem Convention. In which the HRC campaign picked delegates based on who would show the best face of the party in a carefully staged television event that would be seen by most of the country and the Wilmer campaign almost exclusively picked pampered white children who were willing to boo the nominee every time her name was mentioned. They booed civil rights icons when they spoke about Hillary. They booed the BLM mothers when they spoke about Hillary. They booed Wilmer himself when he said nice words about Hillary. And every night including the last one, there was always some lily white cosplay socialist who was eager to be interviewed by the media about “Now that Bernie’s out, I’m still trying to decide between Hillary and Jill Stein!” I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle them! Bernie created that monster and then recklessly unleashed it and we will pay for it the rest of our lives.
Mike in NC
@Gravenstone: Hasn’t Randy Quaid been on the lam for a number of years, hiding out someplace in Canada for assorted criminal activities committed here? Too lazy to Wiki.
15 flush mistermix
@Eolirin:
Point me to the real evidence that Bernie’s campaign is propped up by the GRU.
Yes, I agree that it doesn’t matter in the broad sense of things, but it does matter, to me and to some others who have de-lurked to say it, that for 2 years on this blog a bunch of commenters who I enjoyed interacting with have been chased off by persistent Sanders haters. There’s nothing enjoyable about “fuck Bernie” a thousand times.
I used to think this blog had some of the smartest commenters around, but smart people don’t want to hear “fuck Bernie” over and over, which is what the most persistent anti-Bernie trolls like to do. We’ve lost quality and quantity of comments, in my opinion.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@15 flush mistermix:
If you say it’s all Bernie’s fault, you have a point. I’m more willing than most here to point out HRC’s mistakes. And I guess you can’t blame Sanders for his dumbed-down politics being found “inspiring” by a bewildering number of people including many who should be old enough to know better. But if you deny that Bernie’s self-righteous bellowing, his harping on WALL STREET SPEECHES (one of the mistakes she made, but his harping on it was bullshit and pissing in the pool) and whining about the primaries being rigged hurt Clinton, your head is so far up your ass it comes back out your neck again.
Remember when he blackmailed the party into putting that asshole Cornel West on the platform committee, then West loudly endorsed Jill Stein a week after the convention? Because he was still mad that Obama didn’t sufficiently kiss his ring. Good times.
zhena gogolia
@Citizen Alan:
I agree with every word you’ve said. You left out booing Warren and also a Marine general.
zhena gogolia
@15 flush mistermix:
I asked you the other day if you’d read the Mueller Report. Did you answer me? If so, what was the answer?
Crashman06
@15 flush mistermix: This also needed to be said.
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: Oh, here’s another one! Remember the moment when one of the states (Mass, I think) picked an elderly woman who was born on the day the 19th Amendment was ratified to announce that state’s votes for Hillary? And the whole time she was trying to speak, some bearded hippy insisted on holding a Bernie sign in front of her face? No, do not sit there and tell me that the Bernie campaign (if not the man himself) was trying to sandbag Hillary and give us Trump.
Another Scott
@Immanentize: I have no doubt that he’s being careful in his response.
The fact that it’s taking so long is of some concern, though. A real CiC wouldn’t have the ability to wait 12+ hours before saying anything, especially when the rest of the world is commenting and talking about war.
UN.org:
Not even something as anodyne as that from ex-Mayor Pete yet?
Cheers,
Scott.
15 flush mistermix
@zhena gogolia: If you have a specific passage of the Mueller report you’d like to cite, please do it.
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: Yeah this is super revisionist. Sanders continued to campaign long after he was mathematically eliminated and began leaning heavily into right wing attack lines that were then carried forward by Trump in the general. His supporters disrupted the convention incessantly ffs. He was a vehicle for Russian propaganda efforts, even if unwittingly, and his stubborn resistance to conceding earlier or shutting down bullshit like the DNC rigging the primaries allowed those propaganda efforts to carry further and longer. There was an absolute consequence to the rhetoric he was using and allowing to get signal boosted, and it was absolutely damaging.
He’s not solely responsible for Clinton’s loss, the Russians are the primary culprits there, but he helped. More than a little.
Immanentize
@Another Scott: That is worrisome. But the speed of a response will not long be remembered. I am NOT a fan or current supporter of Buttigieg, but I am interested in how the ‘generational voice’ comes out on this. Yang too for that matter.
ETA -+ shall we start calling him “Grand Duke Soleimani”?
Another Scott
@Eolirin: Bernie refused to release his taxes, also too, giving Donnie cover when he also refused to release his.
Bernie wasn’t a benign actor in the 2016 race. Not at all.
Cheers,
Scott.
15 flush mistermix
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This is another species of the complaint that a primary opponent picking on a serious weakness of a candidate is somehow more detrimental to the candidate than a general election opponent launching the same attack. The point of a primary is to vet a candidate. Clinton – who ran a historically terrible campaign against Obama in 2008 – rightly lost that because she failed the vetting in the eyes of Democrats. Unfortunately, she didn’t have any good opposition in 2016, so she was able to run a slightly better campaign and get a nomination that, in hindsight, she shouldn’t have gotten based on the merits of her campaign.
She lost to Trump. She didn’t lose to Romney, or Bush, or McCain, all better candidates. It was Donald Fucking Trump.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s too late. We can’t punch Iran in the face and then duck behind Bernie saying, “You can’t hit us, we’re isolationists now!”
There’s no point in even continuing the argument, because he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell now.
Baud
@15 flush mistermix:
They weren’t better candidates. They could never have activated the base the way Trump did.
Mnemosyne
@15 flush mistermix:
She lost to Trump because of voter suppression and vote switching in the firewall states that gave him an Electoral College victory. Or did you actually think that Jill Stein just happened to win way more votes in Michigan than she did anywhere else?
You can keep your eyes closed to the truth, but Hillary didn’t lose the Electoral College because she was a bad candidate. She lost because the Republicans fucking cheated. And they get to go on cheating because people like you keep refusing to see it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@15 flush mistermix: Right, and Ted Kennedy didn’t hurt Jimmy Carter and Pat Buchanan didn’t hurt Poppy Bush and Ralph Nader didn’t hurt Al Gore.
Even people who say they’ve quit the cult (“I don’t support Bernie this time, but…”) can’t quite let go. I don’t get it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: and they wouldn’t have been allowed to say they were going to protect and expand the social safety net, one of the keys to trump’s victories that the pundit class can’t see because of the VSP blinders about “entitlement reform”. Another of the political cults fucking up our politics and enabling trump.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
We would have been better off with a literal coronation in 2016, with white doves and a red carpet and a crown and everything.
Citizen Alan
@15 flush mistermix: Who should have run against HRC in 2016 that didn’t even though he or she would have beaten her and Trump? Name names and show your work.
Chyron HR
@15 flush mistermix:
Are we seriously going to have a frontpager screaming “I’M VOTING FOR TRUMP TO PUNISH THE DEMOCRAT FILTH” this time around? Wild.
Baud
What’s most frustrating about Bernie in 2020 isn’t even really his fault. It’s that this time we have a strong progressive woman who largely mirrors Bernie but without his baggage, and she’s not dominating the progressive lane.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
barely a week ago the old fool was bellowing about the “Democratic Establishment”, putting it on a par with trump and Republicans. And still we get the “how dare you say BERNIE! is divisive!”
15 flush mistermix
@Baud:
Well, she didn’t activate our base as much as Obama did, especially in the urban centers of MI, PA and WI, and we lost by a hair in those states.
Whatever her faults or strengths as a candidate, one thing that Hillary Clinton (and Bill Clinton) have in abundance is excuse makers, and these excuse makers seem to like Bernie as a target. Look, Sanders is far from perfect, as I’ve said repeatedly, but the person at the top is the one who should take the blame for a loss, not some also-ran. I refuse to make excuses for either of the Clintons, and frankly, I’m glad that they are gone from Democratic politics. I never really understood the love that the base had for them.
WaterGirl
@sab: Betty didn’t say the two countries are the same. She said they are both horrifying theocracies.
Do you disagree with that statement?
Baud
@15 flush mistermix:
Bernie is a target because he’s running in our primary. It’s not like Comey or Putin or anyone at the NYT is looking to get our votes.
I don’t care whether you like Hillary. She was wronged in the worst way and, through her, we were all wronged. Progreseives spent a decade complaining about the Dean Scream, but what was done in 2016 was far, far worse, and were told to just put it behind us. No thanks.
Archon
From the day the California primary ended to election day, Bernie Sanders undermined Hillary Clinton’s chances of winning.
Bernie Sanders has shown he’s not tied to or particularly loyal to the Democratic Party, which is fine since he’s an independent. Then again it is strange that’s he’s running for President as a, you know Democrat.
Immanentize
@Baud: Also, I don’t recall JEB, Romney or McCain (or Cruz, Perry, etc.) Beating the poor candidate Trump, either. But maybe that happened and I forgot.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
I completely agree with you, and it’s clear that I am not the only one who does.
The trick is that not all front pagers agree on that, and they never will.
The first time I saw Elizabeth Warren on Colbert (whatever show he had at the time) he tried to bait her to complain about Obama not supporting her to lead the institution she had created, and about other Democrats letting her down.
She said, and I believe this is a direct quote: “I am saving the rocks in my pockets for Republicans”.
I wish we could all be as smart and as disciplined as she was there.
15 flush mistermix
@Chyron HR:
So this is what I mean by stupid comments from Bernie haters. It is of a level of stupidity that one would normally find at places like Breitbart. We’ve gone from “let’s take it a little easy on Bernie supporters” and “I’m not happy with the quality of Clinton’s campaign in 2016” on my part, to this idiotic response. And unfortunately your stupidity is coupled with persistence. You post short, stupid, thoughtless comments like this one over and over.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud:
and still encouraging delusional purity tests that damage our prospects in swing states
Eolirin
@PenAndKey: MM isn’t addressing that because that’s not limited to anti Bernie sentiment. That’s why I’m calling it concern trolling. I’m fine for calls to civility and toning things down if they’re getting too out of line, in general.
But a post urging people to be nice to Sanders supporters because he’s got 20% support isn’t that. It’s telling people not to be angry. We have a right to be angry. Posts like that are going to make us more angry. How we express that is on us, and I’m certainly making an effort to be reasonable here.
But it’s absolutely concern trolling, especially when, as MM has just said, this is really about the tone of the blog and who does and doesn’t post here anymore and not about whether we’ll be able to come together as democrats post nomination, which was the framing of the post he made.
If you’re unhappy with how people are behaving in the comments section, just say that. It’s fine to say you know I’m getting pretty tired by how much fuck Bernie is going on can we maybe tone it down a little? Some people will tell you to piss off even then, that’s just what we are here. But don’t make it an argument about the election. It’s disingenuous.
WaterGirl
@Barbara: We will have to agree to disagree on that.
tam1MI
I said it in the earlier thread, and I’ll say it here:
I was called a c*nt to my face by a Bernie supporter when I stated I intended to vote for Hillary – IN THE GENERAL. I know people who were hounded off of social media and blogs by the unending tide of harassment and abuse they received from Bernie supporters. Not a single Bernie supporter- certainly not the man himself – made the slightest effort to get those horrible people to back off. Instead, they egged them on.
So, I when I hear Bernie apologists NOW decrying “hostility” and “ugliness”, I laugh mirtlhessly. Where was your concern about such things when Hillary supporters were getting death threats?
News flash: Your high horse was shot and eaten in 2008.
Mo MacArbie
Heavens to Betsy, Remember Iran? Trump? Why is it so easy to troll everybody with the mere mention of Bernie? He pissed and pisses me right the fuck off too, but jeez. Do we need a new code name that that not even we know? How about “Rapunzel”?
WaterGirl
@PenAndKey: I agree with your paragraphs 1 and 2. I’m not quite sure what you are saying here:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@tam1MI: it is simply amazing that snarkers on a barely top-ten thousand political blog are held more responsible for “tone” than the man who hired David Sirota and Nina Turner, and who endorsed Cenk Uygur.
Also, ol’ honest and authentic Bernie lies constantly about his support of Obama. He called for a primary challenge in 2012. He spent a good chunk of 2017 saying the Democratic Party is a failure.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@15 flush mistermix:
There was quite a bit more voter suppression in POC communities in those states than there was in 2012.
(I’m borrowing Mnemo’s hobbyhorse. Cause she’s right.)
Bill Arnold
@Roger Moore:
The Iranians have a well-deserved reputation for being capable of being very patient about revenge. This means that people considering visiting Trump properties will have to consider whether they want to accept the risk of being a potential target of a revenge attack. The Iranians need not do anything for this to be true.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Mnemosyne: Must agree — my husband and I were saying the exact thing last night. Not just the experience, but as a known entity on the international scene, he has the best shot at de-escalation.
waysel
I propose a new Balloon Juice policy wherein every morning a fresh post labeled “Bernie Sanders, Devil or Angel” is put up, and all BS arguing is relegated to that post alone. All day. Until the next mornings fresh post. Lately it seems every post derails to that topic. Do not like. I was so disappointed that Chyron had to chime in cuz I knew his comment could not stand without complete derailment.
15 flush mistermix
@Eolirin:
This is reasonable and maybe I should have said that.
But, the reason I wrote the post referencing both Bernie’s support in the polls and prodigious fundraising, was not “concern trolling” about the election in general or B-J’s role in it. I was trying to humanize the Bernie supporters, some of whom comment occasionally and some of whom lurk, as not part of some crazy fringe but part of a real and important piece of the Democratic primary electorate. A few have poked their heads up in this thread and in the other thread. Normally they are beaten down by the overly nasty comments around here and stay away. I’m not asking for special treatment, just regular B-J treatment for Bernie supporters.
15 flush mistermix
@waysel:
I was hoping we could have one mega thread about this (yesterday) and move on. I spent the whole morning responding to people in that thread. But it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation with these haters and I’m sick of it, even though I don’t post about Bernie at all, or even about the primary very much.
Immanentize
@WaterGirl: ?
We all know how that tag line ends!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@15 flush mistermix:
hmmm…..
Eolirin
@WaterGirl: I took it to mean that he was taking my view that MM was concern trolling to mean that I was happy with people being aggressively abusive and should go be on Twitter instead of here. Which is… well, not particularly in the spirit of the rest of the post.
I’m not okay with people being aggressively abusive, and my annoyance at MM’s posts on this topic and view that they’re counter productive at best is not a statement of support for that.
And to be clear, I don’t actually think MM is intentionally concern trolling, it was really more intended to be short hand for how flimsy the framing of the comments were; a sort of, this is indistinguishable from what someone who was concern trolling deliberately would post.
15 flush mistermix
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You really do live up to your name. Find another post about Bernie, except for the obvious one I wrote yesterday, first time I mentioned his name in months IIRC, and we can talk.
brantl
@WaterGirl: Cheer up, I have a 23-year old son, living at home, with the same attitude problem……
MisterForkbeard
@15 flush mistermix: Honestly, I think your post yesterday made a lot of sense even though I would have phrased it fairly differently.
Bernie has a LOT of supporters. At least 20% of the Dem voting base. He also gets a lot of donations. Even from a very cynical perspective it makes sense to try and figure out what those people see in him to try and absorb them or prevent the sort of antics we had in 2016.
From a less cynical perspective, we’re a big tent party and we shouldn’t be shitting on people inside the tent. Hategasms are really satisfying but don’t help anyone. We have mostly the same goals and aims – we should work together.
The primary problem I have right now is that most of the Bernie supporters I know aren’t willing to extend that hand of friendship. I’ve seen a lot that are convinced the DNC is somehow controlling the whole primary and that things are being stolen from Bernie again. I’ve seen several others regurgitate right-wing propaganda against Warren and Biden with very little self-awareness.
I’m not really sure how to integrate with those people. They really do seem motivated by a standing hatred of ‘establishment’ democrats without understanding what that actually is.
CindyH
@Citizen Alan: Here here
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@15 flush mistermix:
Read the Mueller Report.
Why hasn’t Bernie addressed how his campaign was used by Russian Intelligence to damage Clinton and elect Trump?
If he won’t acknowledge and address what happened, what’s to prevent from happening again?
Yutsano
Are we gonna fucking near T-Bogg over Bernie AGAIN???
I still stand by my statement: a man who refuses to work for the good of the party has no business becoming the head of it. That’s my objection to Sanders.
Josie
@15 flush mistermix:
This little diatribe against Clinton gives me a big clue as to where all this admiration for Bernie fans is coming from, and it is not a pretty picture. You should be careful to hide your feelings about her a bit better.
Mnemosyne
@15 flush mistermix:
Yeah, Hillary just happened to not “energize the urban base” in a state with massive, race-based voter suppression. ?
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/voter-suppression-wisconsin-election-2016/
Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.
Chyron HR
@Crashman06:
It’s funny how the guy polling at 20% in the primary who is actively contemptuous of the other 80% of us doesn’t need to consider the possibility that he might need our votes if he “secures” the nomination.
Betty Cracker
@Barbara: Ironically, I mentioned Trump’s precious ally Saudi Arabia in the OP to underscore that very point — that U.S. policy toward Iran isn’t motivated by a concern for human rights. I get that they have different histories, faith traditions, etc.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Chyron HR: Bernie and his supporters are pure of heart, thought and deed. The rest of us are corrupt, corporatist, neo-liberal sell-outs who care about things like “winning elections” and “passing legislation”.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Well, perhaps pointing out these facts and suggesting a little accountability is too negative for you vicious jackals.
Oh wait – there’s a primary campaign happening RIGHT NOW and this dangerous character is in 2nd place!
Shit, maybe I need to actively campaign against Bernie in the primary a little harder. If that hurts your feelings, then too bad. This election is too important.
15 flush mistermix
@Josie:
I think she was a great Secretary of State, a good person, smart, funny, etc. I also think she was a mediocre candidate. I voted for her in the general, and would do it again if she were the candidate. But she isn’t going to be, and I’m going to feel free about criticizing her campaign, as I have in the past after the election.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
To get back to the actual topic of the post, I do sort of wonder if Saudi Arabia is going to end up on the pointy end of the retaliation over this idiotic action. There were already drone strikes on their oil fields, and they don’t have much of a military to speak of, unlike Iran.
I think idiot rich boy MBS may find out the hard way that his money can’t buy him the kind of pissed-off Iranian soldiers that will be blowing up his shit.
15 flush mistermix
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
I’m absolutely fine with substantive criticisms of Sander’s campaign. I’m sick of “fuck Bernie” “he’s a GRU agent” “he said mean things to Hillary” blah blah blah.
If you’re going to convince people that Bernie has problems, come up with better critiques. That 330 comment thread yesterday had a few good ones, mostly contributed by Kay, Betty and other smart people, not the trolls we hear from every day.
Bill Arnold
Back to Iran and a possible emerging war, mildly amusing:
Putin Can Cautiously Enjoy the Iran Drama From the Audience – From Moscow’s point of view there must be a quiet sense of relief that this time it is in the audience, not center stage. (Mark Galeotti, 2019/01/03)
(center left, anti-Putin)
Jinchi
Anybody who made that wager in early 2003 would have been in for quite a surprise.
“Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn’t going to last any longer than that” – D. Rumsfeld (November 2002)
J R in WV
@Barbara:
Saudi Arabia has never been a nation, just a bunch of tribes in a stark desert.
Iran is a new English name for an ancient kingdom, really called Persia, which has fought wars with Greece for eons. We shouldn’t forget that Persia is the oldest, most experienced nation in the world. They invented writing and math and astronomy and … lots of things. Including mythology, which they seem to be really good at using today.
When we visited New York city some 14 months ago, we met lots of Persians, but no one from Iran. They were all good friendly interesting people. Persians. Every one.
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: If that was your intention it didn’t come across well.
And you’ve got a hard case to make given that much of the anger here is driven by actual, and intensely negative, interactions with Sanders supporters outside of the BJ comment section, both online and in meatspace. You can’t call for humanization by demanding the erasure of people’s experiences in favor of civility. That doesn’t really work. That Sanders has the poll numbers he does doesn’t change the dynamic that exists with him or his supporters. You want to address the dynamic it can’t be on the basis of that.
Though honestly I think trying to address that dynamic is beyond the ability of this blog.
brantl
@15 flush mistermix: She lost to Trump. She didn’t lose to Romney, or Bush, or McCain, all better candidates. It was Donald Fucking Trump.
Mnemosyne
@Eolirin:
I had my own brief Twitter run-in with David Sirota and his bottomless dishonesty last year so, yeah, telling people that they need to forgive the assholes who insulted and demeaned them while the assholes stand behind them still smirking at us and giving us the finger is … a bit rich.
zhena gogolia
@15 flush mistermix:
It doesn’t sound as if you’ve read the Mueller Report.
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: Also since you asked the relevant passage from page 23 of the Mueller report demonstrating that the Russians were actively supporting Sanders:
Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary Clinton and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them)
Ceci7
@Eolirin: “You can’t call for humanization by demanding the erasure of people’s experiences in favor of civility.” This, exactly. I’m thinking in particular of a friend who was doxxed, threatened with rape, had photos of her child and her house emailed to her, had strangers phone her employer to try to get her fired. I don’t see any substantive effort by the Sanders campaign to change that culture. And it is frustrating to hear his supporters talk past those experiences: “I’ve never heard of anything like that happening.” Agreed that this dynamic can’t be effectively addressed on this blog. But fuck, it’s THERE and it’s hard not to be sarcastic when folks ask us to be nicer when we talk about the Sanders campaign.
Jinchi
The overwhelming majority of Bernie supporters voted for Clinton against Trump in 2016. About the same as the number of Clinton supporters who voted for Obama in 2008. Don’t define an entire block of voters by it’s worst trolls.
Personally, I read mistermix’s post yesterday as an appeal to Democrats to ask: How does a rumpled 78-year old man like Bernie inspire so much passion in the party’s youngest voters?
It’s may be worth it for Joe Biden to figure that out.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Hell, plenty of people would probably offer to drive him to the recruiters office. He’d have to sit in the bed of the pickup, and not say a word, but still, a ride!
Ruckus
@MattF:
You think he knows what KSA stands for?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
How does a rumpled 78-year old man like Bernie inspire so much passion in the party’s youngest voters?
this isn’t really a mystery. He tells them that politics are simple (“There is no reason! we cannot have [leftist fantasy X] in this country!”) and that everyone agrees with him even if they don’t know it yet, the exact rhetoric that drives much more likely voters to say, “well I don’t like trump, but I don’t want to take a chance on losing my doctor/having to pay more taxes…”. Then he tells them that anyone who disagrees with him is as bad as trump.
Jinchi
Unfortunately, his foreign policy experience includes supporting the war in Iraq. This latest event is just another consequence of that.
Mnemosyne
@Ceci7:
Just last week, @magi_jay on Twitter had to temporarily take her Twitter account private because the Sanders trolls descended on her when she said that she didn’t feel safe around his supporters. Because, of course, the best way to prove to someone that you’re safe with them is to harass them until they go into hiding. ?
I do think that that specific faction of Sanders supporters are the former Ron Paul supporters who switched to Sanders when they saw their cause was hopeless. Unfortunately, that also means that they’re far more interested in damaging the Democratic Party than they are in getting rid of Trump, with whom they agree on things like immigration and Islamophobia.
Mnemosyne
@Jinchi:
Given that the “pacifist” left decided in 2004 to let Bush have free reign in Iraq rather than elect the “warmonger” John Kerry who was going to withdraw troops, I have no doubt that the “pacifists” will shoot us all in the foot AGAIN with their short-sighted and stupid grudges that bring the exact bad results they claim to be against.
15 flush mistermix
@Eolirin: Thank you. I read excerpts/summaries earlier but I didn’t know if there was anything more damning than that. The question is whether – like Trump – Sanders coordinated with the Russians. No evidence he did, IIRC. Certainly nothing to support the contention that he’s a GRU agent.
Eolirin
@Jinchi: Unfortunately, while there are definitely differences in what young people care about versus what older people care about, and you can probably make some headway by appealing more towards those issues, a large part of the answer is very likely a factor of the same closed bubble media environments that make Fox so successful. The left is no less susceptible to it than the right.
Young people exist in a different and isolated media environment from older people. There’s at least three separate and barely overlapping media environments now, and they’re sorting people generationally. It’s leading to huge disconnects in how we collectively view the world.
And given how easy those systems are to hijack, disinformation campaigns play a large role.
Jinchi
It’s easy to infantilize a group of voters, especially younger ones. But college age voters (and younger) do not think life is simple. They are in the streets marching because they have a series of catastrophic problems coming at them and most of the established politicians are scolding them for being impertinent when they demand something be done about it.
15 flush mistermix
Also, for all of you talking about Sanders supporters – it sucks to be harassed by assholes. But do you all remember PUMAs? It stood for “Party Unity My Ass”. It was a set of Clinton supporters who refused to unify after Obama beat her in the primary. They were really nasty. This was pre-Twitter but they were active in the comments here for a time. I’m sure many of them supported her in ’16. Is that a justification for hating Clinton?
Mnemosyne
@15 flush mistermix:
So you’ve seen the evidence that the Russians actively cheated on Sanders’ behalf, but it doesn’t count since Bernie and his campaign merely accepted the help and amplified their propaganda, but didn’t ask for it?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@15 flush mistermix:
Bernie: He Was Only A Useful Idiot
I see nothing to argue with there. Well, “useful to whom?” gets to be problematic.
Jinchi
Honestly, what universe do you live in?
PenAndKey
@WaterGirl: “I agree with your paragraphs 1 and 2. I’m not quite sure what you are saying here”
My apologies, that didn’t turn out as clear as I’d intended. It was an angry attempt to say, “if you’re going to troll, do it elsewhere”.
Honestly the whole post was a rage response to seeing multiple commenters piling onto someone else in a way that, in this thread (since I’ll be honest, I don’t get to read every thread), was needlessly belligerent. It was conduct I expect to see on Twitter, not here. And, sadly, it’s not the first time I’ve seen it happen. Hell, about a year ago I was subject to it myself for making the mistake of offering a personal anecdote in sympathy for another commenter who, for whatever reason, took that as an excuse to attack me and who did so long enough they got a number of fellow commenters to join in without understanding what started it. Their attacks actually drove me away from commenting at all for a number of weeks because of how upsetting it was. Ever since then my tolerance for that sort of attack has been… short.
As for Sander’s getting GRU aid? Based on what I’ve seen online I’d be shocked if he didn’t. Do I think he did so intentionally? Likely not, but he’s conceited enough and prideful enough that if he wasn’t intentionally accepting their help he was certainly their useful idiot. Still, that doesn’t change that, right now, he enjoys a double digit percentage fan base in the Democratic party. Why that is is something the party needs to come to grips with, but we can’t deny it just because we consider his followers ignorant, or naive, or whatever. It is what it is. Accepting that and trying to both figure out why it’s there and how to educate and court those followers isn’t something we can ignore because his trolls piss us off.
Mnemosyne
@15 flush mistermix:
Again, see my comments above about people being harassed and doxxed by Sanders trolls LAST WEEK.
We’re telling you about CURRENT EVENTS and you’re bringing up 2008 as a comparison. What the hell?!
Mnemosyne
@Jinchi:
The universe where “leftists” decided to punish the Democrats for their bad votes on Iraq by sitting on their hands and letting the Republicans do whatever they wanted. In other words, the real world.
What magical land do you live in where their strategy worked and we all live in a better, more peaceful world today?
zhena gogolia
@15 flush mistermix:
I don’t think anyone here has called him a GRU “agent.” “Asset,” yes. I haven’t gone that far. But he is the favored candidate of the GRU. Have you ever asked yourself why?
zhena gogolia
@15 flush mistermix:
You might also benefit from reading this, about the oppo research that has been held back about Sanders:
https://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044
Jinchi
Right. That never happened.
In this universe, 2004 looked more like this:
Eolirin
@15 flush mistermix: Agent? No. Useful idiot…?
And that being said he is the only Senator on the left that’s refused to vote for sanctions on Russia. And he keeps down playing their role in the 2016 election. And his 2016 campaign manager was involved with Manafort. I think it’s just as easily answered by old Marxist leanings, ego, and poor judgment, but it’s problematic.
It’s hyperbole, and unsupported, but I get people going there even if I don’t agree with them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
I don’t see a lot of Democrats, even the dread “Establishment” ones, scolding the youth (Yeah, I know Biden does do this, and I wish we had a different front-runner) like the Parkland activists or Greta Thunberg (sp?). Hillary Clinton– the embodiment of all that is unholy to BernieWorld, worse than Obama!– embraced BLM and the Mothers of the Movement. But it’s precisely because of those coming catastrophes that I have no patience with the rhetoric of “no reason!”. There are lots of reasons. From middle-aged, middle-class voters who risk-averse when it comes to issues like health care, to the structure of our Constitutional system. Even if Bernie were elected (which I think is bloody unfuckinglikely), he is not going to pass single payer. He is not going to pass the Green New Deal. Intrinsic in virtually all pro-Bernie arguments (and most of the criticism of Obama from the same crowd) erases Congress (and increasing, the courts) from the discussion. That’s what I mean by dumbing down politics, and the toxic oversimplification that Bernie and his noisiest supporters are unfortunately very successful at selling to mostly but not exclusively young people. Hell, I think Mixie is almost as old as Susan Sarandon.
MisterForkbeard
@Jinchi: I’m defining my experiences with them by the voters I know personally.
He has a lot of very good, very reasonable supporters too. People like my brother and my sister-in-law liked him very much and voted for him in the Primary. I’m not worried about them.
I’m worried about the vocal people Mistermix is talking about. Those are the people we need to be concerned with – the die hard fans. They have the potential to cause a lot of problems and trying to de-fang/co-opt them is a good idea. I just don’t have any idea how to do it.
Mnemosyne
@PenAndKey:
You are not an unreasonable person, so I will try to put this in a reasonable way:
We are being told that we need to put the events of 2016 behind us while we are trying to explain that the harassment and bullying never actually stopped and has continued on to this day.
So, yes, people get upset at being told they need to “let go” of things that are still happening right now.
The fact that we’re not even allowed to bring up the ongoing bullying and harassment is what’s making people so angry.
And, yes, when you got yelled at last year, that was also the base cause — people took it badly that you were assuming they were still angry about 2016 when they were angry about ongoing bullying and harassment that keeps getting minimized and waved away.
MisterForkbeard
@Jinchi:
I think this is broadly correct, actually. It’s not a knock, particularly – it’s what Trump did too, and it’s very effective. “We have $100 billion in the bank – why can’t we spend $50b on health care” sounds simple and makes sense until you start diving in and realize what your costs really are.
The problem is that it isn’t true and politics aren’t simple. If you don’t have a cultish base (like Trump) this comes back and bites you hard. Obama had this issue too – he was all about hope, bipartisanship and getting things done, and the Republicans wouldn’t co-operate at all. And Obama got blamed for it by a lot of people who aren’t terribly into politics.
The Bernie supporters I know that are really into him don’t see to recognize the difficulties in his positions, and really do think that electing him means we’ll definitely get M4A… unless the Democrats sabotage him somehow.
It’s a dangerous place to be.
Mnemosyne
@Jinchi:
Tom Daschle and John Kerry are the same person? Weird.
Maybe you can try to address my actual contention that is specifically about John Kerry and people on the “left” declaring they would never vote for him?
chopper
@15 flush mistermix:
20% of every population is nuts, you know that.
MisterForkbeard
@15 flush mistermix: Ugh, the PUMAs were terrible. And they were also basically kicked out of the party after 2008. That hasn’t been the case with the more virulent bernie supporters. They actually got many of the wishes, including more representation and many of their policy planks pushes hard, like the GND and M4A.
That said, I entirely admit that some of my problems with Bernie are colored by interactions with his supporters. Of course, some of my problems with Bernie are about how he encourages those same supporters. His behavior prior to the 2016 convention is a very public example of that – rather than trying to help the party and get everyone on board, he stoked grievances right up until the convention and his people rebelled at the convention. It was completely foreseeable and he failed.
So while it’s not fair to judge someone by their supporters, you can absolutely still learn something about Bernie from how he deals with them.
MisterForkbeard
Also, everyone DOES need to calm down here. It’s a contentious subject, but jesus – we’re all on the same side here. Deep breaths, folks.
chopper
@15 flush mistermix:
that ‘some’ is doing some heavy fucking lifting.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MisterForkbeard: as somebody who thought HRC held on too long and got bitter and weird at the end of the ’08 primary (remember the RFK thing? and the MLK thing? and…), compare the way she conducted herself from the convention onwards with Himself in ’16, and ’17, and ’18, and…
Mnemosyne
@MisterForkbeard:
I’m trying to be reasonable, I really am, but it’s more than a little maddening to be told (not by you!) to not believe my lying eyes when it comes to the ongoing harassment and bullying.
If everything had come to a halt in 2016, I would be way more amenable to joining hands and singing “Kumbaya,” but I feel like I have pretty good reasons for believing that Sanders supporters will spit in my eye while I get scolded for making them do it by not being “nice enough” to them.
Sorry, but I’m not ready to make nice with people who are still doing their best to punch me in the face at every opportunity.
ETA: If I were more hip, the message I would be giving to mistermix is “Come and get your cousin.”
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: Thank you for posting this. I’ve often thought that Hillary’s single biggest mistake was in not going Scorched Earth against Wilmer and completely expose what a horrible candidate he’d be in the general.
Eolirin
@MisterForkbeard: As a group? You can’t. You have to marginalize them. The best outcome is that they stop talking. If you bring them into the fold so to speak, they don’t suddenly stop being toxic. It’s bad, and there shouldn’t be any place for them in a serious campaign.
This is one of the big differences between Clinton and Sanders since MM brought up PUMAs; Hillary was very active in supporting Obama once she lost and had nothing to do with the PUMA movement. She actively and full heartedly campaigned for him, was willing to join his cabinet, and through her actions disavowed any conflict between them. The PUMAs consequently either got over it or were marginalized and so by the time 2012 came along there wasn’t any real pro Clinton anti Obama sentiment. Consequently being a Clinton supporter in 2016 didn’t require a tacit acceptance of PUMAs as part of the bargain.
Sanders on the other hand has put people like Sirota into his campaign apparatus and has continued to rail against the democratic establishment. He’s tacitly embracing that toxicity by presenting the opposition as inherently corrupt. There’s more toxicity with Sanders supporters because he’s letting them stay there and no one else wants them.
And it’s continued the rift that got opened in 2016. You can’t support Sanders without tacitly supporting Sirota and people like him. Lots of people can do that and not be monsters, but people are being harmed by toxic Sanders supporters still and Sanders isn’t changing anything to make them less welcome. So if you’re informed, you have to somehow either ignore that, justify it, or be okay with it to be on board. It makes an ask of a supporter that shouldn’t have to be asked. It creates a line of attack for opponents that shouldn’t exist.
You bring those people in, you own them. You do not want to own them.
Professor Bigfoot
@15 flush mistermix:
That “20% of the Democratic Electorate” have certainly evinced hostility towards the staunch backbone of the Democratic Party, *black people.*
To the point where Sanderistas can kiss my entire fat black ass, y’dig?
Jinchi
@Mnemosyne: Tom Daschle was Senate Majority leader running for re-election in the very year John Kerry was running for president.
And Tom decides to run campaign ads with him hugging George Bush.
John Kerry lost because he was running against an incumbent who had just “won” the war on terror and had a 55% approval rating. And Kerry’s party leader was hugging the opposition in a desperate attempt to win his own race.
Pacifists didn’t lose the 2004 election for Kerry. Establishment Democrats were the ones who gave Bush his war, gave him cart blanche to run it as he saw fit, okayed most of the power grabs that he declared were vital for national security.
Their support for Bush’s policies made it really hard to run in opposition to them. And it told the country that W. was a swell guy who was keeping us safe.
It’s a bit absurd to put the blame the people who were vocally opposed to all of that, especially since virtually none of them were in a position of power themselves.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: I am not hip enough to know what that means.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@zhena gogolia: Thanks, I knew most of this(chapter and verse). It’s something to keep in mind going forward.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
Nope. Republicans had majorities in both chambers from 03-07, and majority of House Dems voted against the Iraq AUMF, including such “Establishment” figures as Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy and Dick Durbin. Even old Bobby Byrd. And I think most of the Dems in the Senate and House who did vote for it are gone.
Yes, HRC and Biden were for it. It cost HRC the presidency twice, IMHO, and its one of the many problems I have with Biden.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@WaterGirl: I’m tragically unhip.
WaterGirl
@?BillinGlendaleCA: oh yeah? Well I’m probably so un-hip that I don’t even know how un-hip I am!
Jinchi
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
AUMF was voted on in October 2002 (before the midterm elections). 29 Democrats in the Senate voted for it. 21 voted against it. Daschle was the majority leader at the time and he voted for it.
I’m sure they thought it was politically smart at the time, but a lot of those who voted for it went on to lose major elections because of it.
Mnemosyne
@Jinchi:
As Jim just pointed out above me, er, not exactly. Either your memory or your history is distorted.
But thanks for confirming that you were happy to have Trump in power as long as it meant you could continue punishing Hillary Clinton for one stupid vote she made in 2002 that she apologized for repeatedly.
Oh, and remember why we were not allowed to support Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court and had to stay silent while McConnell killed his nomination? That was because of one (1) “bad” vote on Guantanamo. So thanks for that, too, assholes.
Your obsession with punishing Democrats for their wrongthink EIGHTEEN YEARS AGO has basically ruined the country, and you’re going to self-righteously tell me it was justified because of Tom Fucking Daschle? Take that weak shit somewhere else.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi: huh, you’re right, I had March ’03 in my head
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
Assuming that I’m getting it right (and it’s entirely possible that I’m not), it basically means, “Someone you’re close to is saying/doing something stupid, so you’d better come stop them before they get hurt.”
Jinchi
You do an incredible amount of projection in your head. Maybe instead of fantasizing that I somehow punished Clinton, you could show me any evidence at all that pacifists cost John Kerry the election in 2004.
BTW, an anecdote about a college roommate doesn’t count.
Jinchi
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah. It was strange that they needed to vote a month before a midterm election, but Bush could sit on the war authorization for another 5 months.
chopper
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
he spent the better part of the last 30 years saying the democratic party is a failure. seems crazy that the democratic party isn’t super interested in putting him in charge, don’t it.
Mnemosyne
@Jinchi:
Is Antiwar.com good enough for you, or will you declare that Fake News, too?
https://original.antiwar.com/scott-sutton/2004/07/31/john-kerrys-pure-wind/
WaterGirl
@brantl: I don’t think I was the one who needed cheering up. Perhaps you should take it as a sign that one day your son will be able to see his actions in a different light.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: I kind of like that. Even the Urban Dictionary doesn’t seem to know that one.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
I may be phrasing it wrong and inadvertently sounding like Steve Allen quoting rock and roll songs, but hopefully I’m close enough that someone can tell us the correct phrase. ?
chopper
@15 flush mistermix:
considering that clinton, upon losing, robustly supported and campaigned for obama, and then took a position in his cabinet whereby she spent years singing his praises, i’d say that there’s a bit of a difference.
that aside, i personally still felt some anger towards her back in 2010-2011 over the PUMA shit, yeah.
WaterGirl
@PenAndKey: Thanks for the explanation of where you’re coming from!
The thread is likely dead and probably no one cares what I think about this anyway, but I’ll type in out anyway in case you return.
Personally, I am not a fan of people exaggerating, taking things out of context, presenting information in the worst possible light.
I guess it harkens back to my mom saying you’re not really winning if you cheat to win.
Whoever you are, If your arguments aren’t good enough to make your case – with embellishment or any of the things listed above – then either work on doing a better job of making your case, OR perhaps you should consider that maybe you’re on the wrong side of the argument.
Hatefests aren’t my thing, and my eyes eventually glaze over. I hope BJ burns through this particular phase pretty quickly.
I will say again how much I admire Elizabeth Warren’s “I’m saving the rocks in my pockets for the Republicans” line and that I wish that more of use here on BJ would learn to live by that.
I am trying to, anyway. But sometimes it feels like the house is on fire, and we are all so busy fighting to get out of the house that we are trampling one another in the process.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: LOL. I (belatedly) realize that I think I heard that line on a TV show recently but at the time I thought they were literally asking someone to come get their cousin.
If it was on Stumptown, I can completely believe that it was the phrase you are using and not about someone’s actual cousin.
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
And since I have to wander away from my own argument, let me clarify one thing:
Do I think that self-proclaimed “pacifists” were the sole cause of Kerry’s loss in 2004? Of course not. There were a huge number of other factors, including cheating by the Republicans in states like Ohio, just like there were at least 5 factors that all intertwined to give Trump a technical victory in 2016, of which Bernie and his supporters were only one.
My beef is that they seem to have learned NOTHING in the intervening 15+ years and insist on shitting in the Democratic punch bowl over and over and over again. They may be in the Sanders camp now, but it’s the same assholes. Which means that “learning nothing from past experience” is in their DNA now.
Mnemosyne
Oh, and just in case I needed any proof that people are still whining about Hillary’s Iraq vote to this very day …
https://mobile.twitter.com/SaltyProfessor/status/1213146523074211841
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: Until I see some kind of proof that Wilmer wants to lead the party he’s trying to become head of, I’m not supporting him. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.
Daddio7
@Fair Economist: Isn’t that exactly what most of you want? I know I do. Every..single..American. Let Iran occupy Iraq, let Iran get nuclear weapons. I don’t live down wind from any large cities.
satby
@Citizen Alan: thread’s way dead, but quoting this for absolute truth.
Jinchi
I’ve never declared anything “Fake News”. Seriously where are you getting this from?
That said TheSaltyProfessor tweet you link to has a total of 5 likes and 1 retweet.
Your evidence against “pacifists” is an editorial on a little read web site, by an author who wrote a total of (one) post.
Antiwar’s twitter account has 54K tweets and only 43K followers. My guess is far fewer people read that post and even fewer were convinced by it. Kerry lost by about 3 million votes. For comparison, AOC has 9K tweets and 6 million followers. If someone with her reach had rallied against Kerry, you might have a point.
But you don’t, because it didn’t happen. Anti-war liberals didn’t boycott Kerry in 2004. Unless you use a very restrictive definition of pacifist, in which case, there weren’t enough of them to affect the outcome anyway.