Mistermix thinks he is cynical, the piker. My very first thought when I heard Bolton was willing to testify was “That motherfucker will perjure himself all day long if Trump promises to keep killing Iranians.”
McConnell could pretend that he allowed some witnesses, call Bolton and some other inconsequential folks, Bolton would lie his ass off, McConnell would deny witnesses to impeach Bolton’s testimony, Democrats would be forced to sit and fume or be put in the position to release classified information that shows Bolton is lying, Republicans will all vote to absolve Trump, and we go to war with Iran, setting up an election with Trump as a wartime President.
That’s how fucking cynical I am.
You are not wrong.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Do Republican senators in general actually want war?
I guess a better question is, are there enough Republican senators capable of figuring out that war will be the consequence of keeping tRump in office, AND who give a shit about that, to make any difference?
Never mind, I think I just answered my own question.
Ah, well. There’s always 2024.
@yellowdog: It’s a gift and a curse knowing how these motherfuckers think.
I see it the way you have written it here, John.
Bolton as Olly North? I could see that.
Am I more or less cynical than you if I think this assassination could have been a “fuck you” to Bolton because he advised against kicking over that particular hornets’ nest and had a different pet plan?
That might not be as good a look as it was for GWBush.
Trump does not have the popularity ( and Karl Rove) that GWBush had in 2002-3.
@trollhattan: The Walrus as North? That has me giggling fits.
And all the Democratic Senators can do is feed questions to the House managers. They can’t directly question anyone. Man I want Schiff doing this now.
MediaMatters pointed out that Jeh Johnson was on the news shows, but said news show did not mention he is also on the Board of Lockheed Martin. And he is basically a centrist Democrat. So I think your self-answer was correct.
I blame Pelosi for demanding that the Senate call witnesses. #UpcomingTwitter
Yeah, and it’s not like Bush ran away with it in 2004.
every president since at least 2001 has been a wartime president. I don’t think it means as much as it once did.
I am with you, and I don’t think it’s cynical as much as realistic. A cynic would have such skepticism against people in general, but it is not out of character for the recent history of lies and scofflaw and scoffconstitution (we need that new word) Republican attitudes generally. And more specifically for Bolton, the timing stinks. We seem to be headed towards fulfillment of his deepest desire, a war with Iran, and at that moment he volunteers to testify about the man who may be fulfilling his wish. The opposite of cynical is trusting, but in the current circumstance would not say we are trusting, but dupes.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Nah. Dumbasses showed the Occupant a Powerpoint, one of the slides said “big go boom!”, and he pointed at that one and grunted. Anything more is overthinking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: I have been enjoying all the people– left, right and center– admitting that Pelosi was right and they were wrong
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Never underestimate a narcissist’s desire to get back at someone that s/he feels made them look bad.
@Baud: Further, if the wartime president meant anything, McCain would have crushed Obama in 2008. As I recall, that was a big part of their playbook.
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: It doesn’t mean Dolt45 came up with it. He doesn’t make plans. He just gets the stuff fed in his ear and grunts yay or nay. It’s entirely possible Mulvaney dropped the suggestion.
James E Powell
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Did any Republican senators lose their jobs because they supported the Iraq invasion? Makes their campaigns pretty simple: my opponent is objectively pro-terrorist and hates the troops. This has been working for them for years now.
@WaterGirl: That’s a Harlee pupper!!! He actually belongs to my mom but yeah. I actually got him posted last night.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Yutsano: Never mind, I’ll take him out then.
Super cute pup!
@WaterGirl: LET’S DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN!!!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@WaterGirl: Oh my goodness, what a cutie.
@Mnemosyne: By all accounts there are two tribes inside govt right now. Those with a boner for war with Iran, because all of the other wars these dipshits fucked up need to be blamed on someone else, and those that recognize just how badly this is likely to blow up.
We have no idea who is assembling the powerpoints. I’m not sure anyone else does either. By all accounts nobody is in charge of jack shit in the WH right now.
That’s cynical? Way to realistic a possibility to be cynical.
I just read that again – repositioning troops within Iraq got interpreted as withdrawal.
NPR has a non-withdrawal interpretation. Also CJTF-OIR is not necessarily all US troops in Iraq.
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Maybe I should put him back anyway so people won’t be confused.
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
My Apple word of the day screensaver was giving me “Gadarene” on Friday, as in people who rush headlong off a cliff.
How kind! I’m sure the little pup needs a bathroom break and a nice walk.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
Good points. I’m just not at all confident that Twitler, regardless of his desire for vengeance, could make even the relatively simple calculation required to piss off Bolton by accepting a Mulvaney suggestion re Soleimani. Are Mulvaney and Bolton on different teams? I can’t keep up with who-hates-whom in this pathetic excuse for a White House – it’s a bunch of malevolent toddlers in a nuclear-armed sandbox.
Mr. Pierce shares your point of view, Mr. Cole.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I suspect you’re right, but there might be a possibility of “you’re doing it wrong” as far as Bolton’s opinion on Trump. The worst thing for Bolton is Trump screwing up this opportunity to bomb Tehran, and god knows he likely will given past experience. For example, he may fear that Trump will chicken out and cave at the next escalation when shit gets real. Remember, Trump is a guy who went bankrupt running a casino, and Bolton knows that Trump is an idiot and a coward and that the people around him are equally bad. Bolton seems to have had a working relationship with Fiona Hill, so he may value competence, even if he is a nutjob. He may not trust Trumps willingness or ability to not fuck this up, especially since he doesn’t have John Bolton to tell him what to do.
I’m saying, don’t underestimate the role of Trump’s personal animus against Bolton or players to named later in Trump making the assassination decision. Narcissists are simple machines that run on spite, and they think that doing shit that other people don’t do because it would break the social contract makes them smarter than everyone else.
I don’t know that I am that cynical, but I do think we need to consider that just because we know bad things happened and the Bolton saw a lot of it, doesn’t mean he will confirm all/any of it or that he will be candid. He is a savvy enough DC player to get around the questions without getting caught out in a lie.
He knows the likelihood of getting called up are slim because he has likely already talked to Senate staff who told him so.
@Mnemosyne: Oh, yeah. That’s the only game here – Trumps unpredictability and who gets to exploit it in any given hour.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
On the one hand, John Cornyn is arguably the dumbest Senator not named Marsha, on the other hand, if the fix is in, he would know, and might well forget it’s a secret.
I’m assuming Bolton back-channeled with the Turtle to make sure he didn’t get subpoenaed.
That way he preserves a strong hand without having to testify against the ruler of the GOP and fucking up his grift.
Sure, Bolton would lie as best served his purpose and just out and out call for war crimes and even worse as a point of national and christian/western civ pride if it came down to actually talking to the Senate Cheering Squad. I’d imagine there’s also going to be a lot of flourishes and dramatic statements trying to make the Dems and House the inflexible, non-cooperative ones in the eyes of the media et al. Why else stand up and triumphally announce (to the tune of the stars and stripes forever) that you will obey the law?
@Mnemosyne: Trump loves to twist the knife in people. Remember how he kept Sean Spicer from his dream of meeting the Pope? It would very Trumpian to fire Bolton and then start a war with Iran.
but Bolton already demonstrated he’s not willing to go to jail for the Orange Dumbass over Ukraine bribery. So there’s no reason to believe he would perjure himself now. The only way for Bolton to get back in the Iran action is if Trump is out. Bolton is a malignant narcissist too. I think he sincerely believes he can manipulate Pence all he wants. He will be all in for being the hero who took down the Orange Menace.
There are two tribes all over the earth right now, both hell bent on slaughtering The Other. Planned obsolescence of the human race ?
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
Given how narcissists are, just Bolton or someone on his team saying in a meeting, “Mr. President, I don’t think that’s a good idea” would be enough to trigger Trump’s instinctive You’re Not The Boss Of Me reaction. Even dumb narcissists never forget what they consider to be a slight, like being told in a meeting that their idea was bad.
Perjury was my thought, too.
But was giving Bolton more credit. That he was willing to perjure n exchange for being invited back to run the war with Iran.
@James E Powell:
I’m not sure that routine is going to have the same impact as it did in (?) 2004: for a number reasons:
First and foremost, we have the Iraq experience in our past: the public soured on that commitment pretty quickly, and I don’t think there’s really much political mileage to be gotten flogging a new, bloody MidEast war.
Secondly, GW Bush had the public behind him: a public still wallowing in the Great National Freakout over the 9/11 attacks: he and his Admin squandered that goodwill, of course, but he had it for a while anyway: I really don’t think the dishonest and mendacious Trump is going to get quite the same leeway.
This may be their plan but,really, it’s too complicated to work. Leaks could kill Bolton’s perjuries, crazy stuff could happen in Iraq Iran Syria Yemen ….., and other witnesses or other crimes could be exposed.
Any penalties for perjury in an impeachment trial?
I’m not as cynical. I don’t think Bolton will perjure himself (if it comes to that) because he values his own ass a lot more highly than Twitler’s, or even than a war on Iran. Self-sacrifice from a Republican? Don’t make me laugh.
Are these the same Republican masterminds that had their asses handed to them in 2018 and 2019, in a number of special elections, and,so far, the impeachment inquiry that has seen support for impeachment and removal nearly double from 6-8 months ago? Because it seems to me that, “Bolton perjures himself, we say ‘that’s that’ now let’s start a war” may not be a winning strategy. Throw in the real possibility that Trump’s tax returns will be public knowledge in the not too distant future, and you have a recipe for the Republican candidate for president being the least popular major party candidate ever. People are waking up to this shit. They’re not going to go back to sleep based on another transparent ruse.
Is there no consequence for perjuring? So when Bolton lies during the Impeachment trials, perjury means nothing?
The Moar You Know
Bolton is going to testify against Trump. Here’s the quid pro quo (and there assuredly is one):
Bolton gets his war.
Trump gets testimony from Bolton that Trump is the most competent, aboveboard, brave president ever, and that, in addition to that, Donald J Trump has a 13 inch dick.
That’s how this will go, folks.
@Jay C: If I’m not mistaken, 2004 was the election that saw high Republican turnout in key states due to referendum questions near and dear to their shriveled hearts, e.g , gay marriage bans.
I don’t see it. Bolton is a POS and a nut when it comes to Iraq, but I don’t think he has actually done anything illegal. Ollie North had already committed illegal acts so perjury was just another day at the office for him. I don’t see a guy like Bolton risking jail for Trump. Bolton is many things but I don’t think he is stupid, and he doesn’t owe Trump anything
@ElegantFowl: William Barr’s DOJ will come down on him like a ton of bricks. right?
I disagree with this only in as much as I think it exaggerates how much of a bump Shrub got from the war in Iraq. His big bump in popularity came in the wake of 9/11, but even that bump dissipated over the next year or so. By the time we invaded Iraq, he had lost almost all of his post-9/11 popularity bump. The invasion gave him another bump, but it was smaller and dissipated very quickly. If Trump thinks getting in a war with Iran will help his popularity, he has another thing coming.
A few republicans have been sacrificing pretty much everything for trump. OK sure they might feel that they will or do benefit from that, but they are still standing up for him and in the face of ridicule for it. They sure aren’t doing this for party unity and the good of the country…….
Neal Katyal is strangely optimistic.
Obama. Trump did not get the same praise for Bagdhadi that Obama got for OBL. He didn’t get yelled at for it, either. So, someone said Suleimani was a big deal, and Chimp went “This time for sure!” He is currently in the tantrum phase of it blowing up in his face, and will soon try to move to the pretending it didn’t happen phase. Except he’s screwed this pooch so badly he’ll keep getting yelled at.
I find it very easy to believe that Bolton had, as you say, advised against kicking that particular hornet’s nest. But I also would expect that Trump had totally forgotten that advice by late December. After all, Bolton left during the summer and there isn’t enough room in Trump’s brain to remember things from a week ago, let alone several months ago.
Trump really doesn’t have a good handle on how the war president thing works. He was so confident after they killed the ISIS guy that he would be hailed as a hero that he decided to go to a World Series game, where he promptly got booed (and you could see from the video that he was perplexed by it). Presidents have to convince people that the war is necessary – sometimes easy, as it was on December 8, 1941, sometimes more difficult and time consuming, as in Iraq, and sometimes impossible.
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Never apologize for saying something that brings a puppy pic back into a thread!
Only one of those tribes has the power in government. And it isn’t the one who thinks anything they want is a bad idea. Now could that branch with the idea that somethings are just bad on their own merits just not do as they are told? Sure they could but how can you be sure that the people in a position to do that are of that mindset? No one in the military has or is even supposed to follow an illegal order. Which one(s) of them do you think is going to say anything?
@The Moar You Know: Well that’s depressing!
Cole thinks he is cynical, the piker. I am more cynical.
I don’t think Bolton will perjure himself. He’ll tell the truth, which will be as bad for Trump as humanly possible. Bolton wants to get bumbling goofballs like the Trumpsters out of the way, in hope of later getting real neocons in who will follow though on a war with Iran, or ruinous sustained bombing campaign.
Bolton is not as stupid as Trump. Bolton is crazy and vile, but not stupid and ignorant in the same thorough and complete way that Trump is. I think Bolton knows Trump is way in over his head, and is a coward, so will blink if the Trumpster crimes and blunders lead to a face off, or the Iranians retaliate in a clever way that leaves Trump confused and clueless.
Also, the Iraqi parliament resolution to oust US troops seems symbolic, now that more information has come out. But Trump started threatening Iraq asap, before he know what the hell was going on. If any one could screw up Iraq during a crisis badly enough to really get kicked out, or turn the US presence there into a disaster, it is Trump. Bolton wants a robust and influential US presence in Iraq.
@Ruckus: I think both of those tribes cross political boundaries. You find both tribes within the professional military/foreign policy classes under all administrations.
Normally those individuals are empowered when their views align with those of leadership. Sometimes you can push things a bit one way or another. But Trump is the absence of leadership, so it’s a free-for-all down there.
@catclub: This, this, this.
George W. Bush rode us into the Iraq War following a midterm election that his party won, despite the historical trend that the incumbent president’s party almost always loses the first midterm. Bush’s approval rating in Spring 2003 (when we invaded) hovered in the high 50s to the low 60s. Donald Trump’s approval rating has consistently hovered between the high 30s to the mid 40s. He’s never had even a bare majority of the American public behind him, much less a double digit net positive approval rating like Bush had for the entire first three years of his presidency.
We all keenly remember how awful Bush was and how he left office with a record low approval rating in 2008. What I think we often forget is that the guy was actually a pretty popular president for most of his first term – he still had a roughly ~50% approval rating when he was up for re-election in 2004. I think we also forget that the Iraq War – which wound up being the most disastrous foreign policy decision in any of our lifetimes – had fairly broad public support at its outset. Most Americans were totally behind the invasion when we first went in. It was only in hindsight where a lot of this country realized what a monumentally bad decision that was.
Different times. Trump doesn’t have a 9/11 to leverage his way into war. America won’t fall in line – especially for a guy who explicitly ran on the promise that he would get us out of all wars in the Middle East
Another one of the best people quits or is fired:
@Comrade Colette Collaboratrice:
As mnems pointed out, a narcissist will remember any personal slight against them, especially if aimed directly at them, and Bolton didn’t miss.
J R in WV
Really cure puppy !! Thanks for adding him to the thread, we need more kitten and puppy pictures as our renegade government careens toward WW III…!!
@janesays: I agree. Polling indicates that 75 percent of US public doesn’t want a war with Iran, and think the recent problems with Iran are mostly Trump’s fault. Not the same situation as immediate aftermath of 9/11 at all.
Also, I’ve heard and read military experts worry that US troops are already overstretched, US troops and other US missions in Iraq are vulnerable.
And Trump follows up his blundering assassination with immediately, and explicitly threatening war crimes (going after civilian targets and population as punishment for its government’s actions), and issuing absurd and insulting threats to Iraq because of the symbolic gesture of protest from its parliament.
US is not going into the Trumpster Iran crusade in a position of strength. If things get ugly with far more than half the population skeptical, Trump may find that being a War President is not an automatic gimme.
Are dumbfucks going to buy champagne and mustard to destroy this time around too?
Jesus Fucking Christ.
Good Dog Almighty, looks like the letter to the Iraqis saying our troops were leaving was “just a draft.” However:
I wonder if this was accidentally on purpose by Twitler – “you can’t fire me, I quit!” or just another incompetent low quality personnel fuckup.
Mostly I’m thinking is that this is a power play so that he’ll get hired back into the administration so he can lead the Iran war effort. He’s itching to get back in there and kill him some Iranians. But the Iranians aren’t dumb, they are going to go for the subtle approach. It won’t be flashy forcing Donny Dumbhands to respond so he can get accolades.
I would also watch Trump properties, because something is probably going to happen there. I doubt that destroying a Trump tower is going to lead to an act of war, even if Donny wants to. It will drive him crazy though. (I also hope that if they do such a thing that they give advanced notice so that no civilians are harmed)
In related news, the man really is the quintessential asshole:
This violates a 1947 Headquarters agreement requiring foreign representatives be admitted to attend UN sessions, naturally.
@J R in WV: That’s the pup that Yutsano’s parents got at Christmas. I was just getting the photo out there since he mentioned the twitter feed last night.
Bolton could also have a deal with Pence. Bolton takes out Trump. Pence brings Bolton back. Bolton gives Pence his pre-rapture war.
@MazeDancer: Alright that’t the ticket. And I thought I was more cynical than Cole. I’m a piker.
J R in WV
All the best people are fleeing the certainty of being right there when the major war crimes are ordered and/or being executed after being kidnapped by Muslim terrorist cells.
There is no telling which fear drives a particular resignation, most resignations could be dual driven. No one wants to be convicted by the next Nuremberg Trial~!!~ Also no one wants to be decapitated by a dull knife on network TV…
I’m not truly disagreeing here. I’m just saying for someone, say in the military, to say no to him, even if they believe that to be 100% correct is a big stretch. And they know that if they do and get fired there will be someone else who is more than willing to carry his water. IOW anyone with the, well in this case, the balls to say no, will not prevail and they know it. That UCMJ code that does not allow them to follow an illegal order is never clear on what exactly is an illegal order. Most of the time you really have no way to know who is right in any situation. And with the rather vast range of what a president can and can not do with the military these days, that is a tough call. And no I don’t think anyone else in this maladministration will say shit.
@Ruckus: A bad order and an illegal order are not the same thing. Also, when refusing an order because it is illegal, you better be damned sure that it is illegal because the consequences for getting it wrong are pretty severe.
@jl: I agree with you. Bolton is a neo-con. He has no interest in going down with this shop. He may want his war, but he knows these folks will fuck it up.
Thank you. He is a cutie.
J R in WV
Yes, adorable, so cute, so fuzzy and cuddly looking. I think we should take every opportunity to include a puppy or kitty photo into threads dealing with war crimes and political criminal behavior, which is nearly all threads now. And thanking you again!!!
I took a nap early this afternoon, and two puppies landed on the bed, one for the first time. She was right on top, and had to be shown gently the way to cuddle in bed isn’t right on top, but beside. Probably around 115-120 pounds of happy dogs.
@J R in WV: Bring on the ducks! (No, not ‘dicks’ autoincorrect!)
Guess I’m in the minority. I think Bolton’s so pissed off he’ll sing like a birdie about Trump. He’s seen a lot of what’s gone on and is not stupid enough to think Trump would keep whatever word he gave him.
Exactly. Thank you for simplifying my ranting.
It is possible but think about the repercussions for Bolton if he does this. He’s never going to be accepted on the Dem side and if he does this he’s shutting the door on any current republican who might want his war for fear that he’ll turn on them. Bolton is 71 so his time to strike is now, not in 4 yrs.
If he’s 71, he should either retire or join a think tank where he can codify all of his rantings and ravings.
@patrick II: yes, but doesn’t Bolton want to WIN his dream war? Is he competent enough to see that Trump would screw up a simpler war than this, and if Trump screws it up, chances are this country is going to get more isolationist anti involvement. Any other President we have a choice of of either party would try to have a plan to win any war but Trump only knows how to fight in the media and has the attention span of of a fruit fly but he thinks he is so smart.
Blatant violation, not even arguable (at least not obviously, to me), assuming it hasn’t been amended in this area.
No. 147. AGREEMENT1 BETWEEN THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA REGARDING THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE UNITED NATIONS. SIGNED AT LAKE SUCCESS, ON 26 JUNE 1947
 Note the State Department (www.state.gov) reorganized their web site AND appears to block search engines so it is very hard to find things such as any amendments. I assume that this is deliberate and malicious.
I don’t think that’s cynical at all, John. Seems like the obvious play.
@Immanentize: AND every president since 2001 has been reelected…
Oh I agree I was just pointing out that his time is limited and basically if we get a dem elected he’s going to be out of being a political entity for a while is why, if he’s going to do anything that remotely resembles actual helping himself he’s got to do it right now. He’s not going anywhere with trump, that ship has run aground. And the only way he’s helping himself is actually being a good guy, and the chance of that happening is quite possibly less than zero.
Well , they ARE the GOPerverts .
@The Moar You Know: Alternatively, Bolton tells just enough truth to get revenge on Trump for kicking him out before starting a war with Iran without him. Pence might have agreed to bring him back to run the war with Iran.