If pressed to extract a single overriding ‘message’ from the text, it would be this:
Perform your calculations for everything liable to calculation, but also think very deeply about what people are capable of. — (from the Amazon link)
Notable misinterpreters of The Art of War—including Trump—view it as a treatise on how to crush one’s enemies rather than as a manual on converting enemies to your point of view https://t.co/2tr0kvWceU
— GEN (@GENmag) January 7, 2020
This might be the book that finally convinces me to download Kindle, even though I find reading more than two pages of text on a screen exhausting:
… Michael Nylan, a professor of early Chinese history at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of a few academic books of history and criticism, has completed a fresh translation of The Art of War — fresh both for the fact that she is the first woman scholar to do so and also because she has worked to move the reader’s focus away from the book’s brute military elements, which comprise only two of the 13 chapters, and toward its psychological and peacemaking ones…
GEN: How is your interpretation of “The Art of War” fundamentally different from previous ones?
Michael Nylan: The people who’ve been interested in The Art of War are, of course, not only men, but [most] tend to be interested in the war part of it when, actually, The Art of War is pretty much an anti-war treatise. It’s only if you haven’t been able to outmaneuver your enemies by various means and you’re attacked that The Art of War will tell you how to conduct a war as ruthlessly as possible — but that’s about two chapters’ worth out of 13, and most of the rest is far more interesting…Throughout the book, there’s unusual concern for those at the lowest rungs of society. There’s unusual concern that you don’t kill innocent civilians. There’s unusual concern that you consult people as widely as possible and that when you have to calculate going to war, you do so in the hopes that you will be killing as small a number as possible…
What’s a significant, specific divergence between your translation and previous ones?
For one, many of the previous translations treat it more or less like Machiavelli — all about deception and duplicity when, actually, deception and duplicity are pretty much [confined to] a single chapter that is usually translated as “spies.” For instance, the same word that means “spies” means “a gap that has been introduced,” so a lot of that chapter should not specifically be about spies but rather about how to introduce a division within the enemy’s population while keeping no division within the home forces…Was your translation a collaborative process?
I had three students fairly well along in their PhD program, all of whom had a specific interest in Sun Tzu, so we formed a little working group. Since one of them had done two tours in Iraq, he brought quite a bit of expertise that the rest of us lacked. I believe that none of us, no matter how smart, is sufficient unto a good text. People will have insights that would simply escape me…
Iran Fires On US Airbase
Kamala.Harris.2020
Yea for women!
Woodrow/asim
There’s a Hardcover version listed at that Amazon link, as well.
Unless I’m missing something?
And thanks for this. As someone who’s read up on Daoism, it’s always a pleasure to point out to folx who think of it as Chinese Clausewitz that Art of War is seen by a number of scholars as a Daoist treatise, and that the elements Prof. Nylan appears to be foregrounding are how I’ve always approached the text.
Martin
Yay for California!
SiubhanDuinne
How very timely.
Patricia Kayden
Bill Arnold
An excuse to read “The Art of War” for the first time. Kindle edition bought.
Adam L Silverman
I don’t mean to be contrary, but almost no modern/contemporary translation takes this approach. The traditional/older translations did, but none of the versions I’ve seen translated since the 1990s do this. So while she is absolutely correct, this is not actually something new. I have over a 1/2 dozen translations of The Art of War in either traditional print or as ebooks, and with the exception of one of the older/classic translations, all of them emphasize that Sun Tzu, or the collection of people whose writings have been attributed to Sun Tzu, is seeking to focus on how not to make war, rather than how to make war. My two preferred translations, which I used excerpts from when teaching The Art of War in Seminar 12 for four years at USAWC during the core course Theory of War and Strategy and as part of my elective on Culture for Strategy and Policy, focus on Sun Tzu not preaching war, but preaching how to develop and implement strategies to avoid war. My actual preferred translation, which is not the better of the two, is preferred because the translator’s introduction dives deep into this and, because this translator has also translated most of the major extant Taoist canon, is able to both situate The Art of War and tie it directly into the larger Taoist teachings on the use of violence and war. In many ways The Art of War is Taoism’s equivalent to a just war theory in addition to being a treatise on strategic development and implementation. And the Taoist canon makes it very, very clear that:
So while I look forward to reading this translation, what is new here is that we have a female translator and commenter, not that we suddenly have a properly contextualized translation.
Anne Laurie
Selfish admission: I’m $10 kindle-interested, but — given the stacks of unread hard-copy books overcrowding our house — more dubious at spending $25 on yet another aspirational volume!
geg6
My memory on this is hazy, but Sun Tzu was touched on in a philosophy class I took in undergrad and it seems to me that the professor had a similar take on the text overall. He said it was more about ways to avoid war and only counseled war as a last resort after careful counsel and planning. He said people who called it a treatise on war hadn’t read it.
Adam L Silverman
Before someone asks, this is my preferred translation not because there aren’t better translators, but because of the translator’s having translated almost all of the extant Taoist canon and his ability to situate The Art of War within it. This is very evident in his “translator’s introduction”:
https://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/1590302257/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=the+art+of+war+cleary&qid=1578451284&s=books&sr=1-2
You can find Cleary’s translator’s introduction at this link:
https://www.bestjudo.com/review/01172/art-war-sun-tzu-cleary
jl
@Woodrow/asim: ” Nylan appears to be foregrounding are how I’ve always approached the text. ”
I don’t know ancient Chinese, or any Chinese. So, I am at the mercy of translators. But I don’t remember The Art of War as a text devoted to ruthless destruction, and I certainly remember reading commentaries that said very differently. It wasn’t just a ‘Drive your enemies before you, and rejoice in the lamentations of their women” book. From reading the link, and some examples given there, looks like done very carefully and thoughtfully, so I’m eager to read it.
Similarly, I’ve read commentaries on The Prince that argue that it contains a lot of snark. It isn’t consistent with many of Machiavelli’s other writings on politics and history which show a sympathy for early democratic impulses in Italy at the time. it was written in odd circumstances, IIRC. Machiavelli was trying to get some local tyrant to spring him from prison? Anyone know?
Anne Laurie
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks!
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks for the link.
@geg6: “He said it was more about ways to avoid war and only counseled war as a last resort after careful counsel and planning. He said people who called it a treatise on war hadn’t read it. ”
That is consistent with how I remember the book. But some people with fixed mindsets find it easy to completely misconstrue a text. Or ignore anything that they don’t like or don’t find useful for their own hobby horses.
Adam L Silverman
@geg6: That has been the prevailing view of The Art of War since as far back as I can remember engaging with the text, which is the early 90s. Those initial engagements were because I was a martial artist. Ultimately they gave way to engaging with the text for professional reasons. There’s a lot of material in the Bin Fa (Art of War) literature, and a lot that isn’t Sun Tzu or even a response to him, but The Art of War has not been presented in translation and/or taught as pro war for as long as I can remember.
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: I’m not sure if this is mansplaining or Taosplaining or both, but you’re welcome.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Nerdsplaining.
As for the book, maybe recent misinterpretations stem from BS business tycoon pro-tip vulgarizations that interpret the book as a guide to how to get everything your way, one way or another. With total war as last resort.
Barbara
@Adam L Silverman: She seems to be merging the translations with the dominant contemporary reaction to the translation.
I’m sick of war. I am so angry and dispirited right now I would like to scream. So I don’t think I’ll be reading any translation anytime soon.
Anne Laurie
Yup. Nylan actually argues specifically, in the Amazon extract, that Machiavelli was a specific person arguing to a group of people who could be expected to understand what we call ‘snark’… including understanding what could and could NOT be written under their shared political system. Art of War, on the other hand, is a treatise passed down in manuscript form from a semi-mythologized past; every individual who wrote out a new copy of the ‘original’ text would’ve made amendments, intentionally or not, during the process.
Martin
Trump tweets that all is well, so far so good!
Maybe we can get some PhDs to translate his tweets into something sensible.
Adam L Silverman
Basically, as long as you don’t read this guy’s version of The Art of War, almost any modern translation is good.
Also, that’s a four banger, automatic mustang. And despite those unit crest stickers, the Blue Footed Booby of Budapest has never been assigned to USSOCOM, nor was he ever a Green Beret/US Army Special Forces.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: I’ve avoided the business school takes on Sun Tzu because I basically try to ignore the business school takes on everything if at all possible.
Martin
@Adam L Silverman: Don’t be mean to cosplayers, Adam.
Adam L Silverman
@Barbara: I understand. That said, I still highly recommend reading Cleary’s translator’s introduction. I think you’ll find it full of good analysis.
Anne Laurie
@Adam L Silverman: It’s sincere! I haven’t read even a translation of the book (just extracts, over the course of 40 years), so I’m genuinely grateful for feedback from someone who knows what he’s talking about.
Martin
@Adam L Silverman: Go for the video game takes.
Steal their hats.
jl
@Anne Laurie: Don’t want to get off track from Art of War, but I do remember a few passages like that.
One, paraphrasing, went something like “Try to keep the common people out of your fights, for they only want for the powerful to stay out of their way and let them alone, so that they can prosper”
I can’t remember specific passages from the Art of War, but my memory of the spirit of some of them is ‘Don’t be dumbshit, look before you leap”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Leadership and shit
“So for, so good!” He’s alone and tweeting.
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: It is also, without almost any doubt, not actually written by the historic Sun Tzu, but is a collection of teachings that were attributed to him for publication purposes. And the best translations come with the five commentaries.
I also highly recommend the Japanese Art of War – Cleary has done a translation of that as well. Takuan Soho’s Unfettered Mind: Letters from the Zen Master to the Sword Master is also excellent.
Adam L Silverman
@Martin: Every time I see that picture I hear in my head:
“It’s just a jump to the left…”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman:
Wise decision.
Barbara
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks. Since you mentioned a Mustang, let me take this opportunity to mention OT that the Mustang that was driven by Steve McQueen in Bullet is being auctioned off on January 10 on tv, one of those Mecum auto auctions. Turns out, it’s been parked in a barn in Tennessee since 1980, after being driven by the guy who bought it from the production company more or less as a family vehicle.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: “Damnit Janet”.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@jl: Correct (well, I don’t remember on the bit about getting sprung out of prison, but it definitely wasn’t sincere). In fact Machiavelli “dedicated” The Prince to the Medici family, who had imprisoned and tortured him. The idea that he meant it sincerely is not supported by little known writings such as literally everything else he ever wrote. Discourses on Livy is a good overview of Machiavelli’s actual beliefs.
While I’m at it, the Marquis de Sade is also frequently misinterpreted by English-speaking readers. He is not endorsing the depravity of his characters; he is using them to condemn inequalities within society. Politically, Sade supported a property-free utopia and was appalled at the violence of the Reign of Terror, making him almost a prototypical anarcho-communist, but his political writings are rarely read by the English-speaking world, to the point where his name, like Machiavelli’s, has become synonymous with a form of behaviour he was writing to condemn.* Then again, so has Orwell’s, and he was English.
Regarding The Art of War, this translation seems quite apposite to our times, even if it’s not as unprecedented as it’s being made out to be. I’ll have to give Sun Tzu more attention.
*I should note that Sade was also accused of monstrous personal conduct, though, which if true would certainly make him, perhaps least amongst other things, a massive hypocrite, but due to the nature of the French justice system at the time (people were assumed guilty until proven innocent), it’s difficult to know whether some of those accusations were fabrications by political opponents. Some of them seem so outlandish that I lean towards thinking they almost have to have been, but others seem plausible. A deeply problematic figure, but one who nonetheless does not wholly deserve the reputation he has in the English-speaking world.
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: On a related note, I highly recommend Lars Martin Fosse’s introduction in his translation to The Baghavad Gita. When I taught the Gita as part of my Culture, Strategy, and Policy course I assigned his translator’s introduction, but had the students actually read from The Baghavad Gita According to Ghandi:
https://www.amazon.com/Bhagavad-Gita-According-Gandhi-ebook/dp/B00J96VLCM/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=Ghandi%27s+baghavad+gita&qid=1578452615&sr=8-1-fkmr0
You can find Fosse’s introduction here:
http://library.umac.mo/ebooks/b17771201.pdf
Another Scott
@jl:
Not that one in particular, but I like this one:
Cheers,
Scott.
Raven Onthill
@Anne Laurie: doesn’t have to be Amazon (I hate doing business with any firm which runs unsafe workplaces.) Google and Apple also have it available.
lamh36
I believe reports are that there are Iraqi casualties. I gotta say not surprised by Chump co doing this, but I am taken aback by the seemingly inadvertent dismissal of those casualities by folks who should be more fair and balanced!
Smh…
jl
@(((CassandraLeo))): “Discourses on Livy is a good overview of Machiavelli’s actual beliefs.”
After I read commentaries that agree with you on The Prince, I read most of that book, which shows a completely different mindset.
Adam L Silverman
@Barbara: I saw an article about that. Are you going to bid?
Adam L Silverman
@?BillinGlendaleCA: She’s got a lot of explaining to do right now.
jl
@Another Scott: More likely that the Iranians have read The Art of War than Trump has.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks, kindle edition bought ($1.99).
I’ll buy paper for the one I like best.
Splitting Image
I don’t know how much snark was intended, but the basic thesis of the book is that a ruler will always either die in power or be murdered on his way out of it. Assuming the first is preferable, a smart ruler will devote just about all his time to making sure he stays in power. On the other hand, he also thought that the best way to stay in power was to keep the public sufficiently on your side that they would fight your opponents for you instead of taking their chances with the other guy.
Machiavelli developed his political theories at greater length in The Discourses, which are mostly a discussion of ancient Roman history. He makes no bones about preferring the Republic era to the Empire, and he thought the Romans did better in the early years when they gave conquered people Roman citizenship rather than later when they treated them like subject states.
lamh36
Ok…a respite…tonight’s Finding Your Roots episode was really good.
This was one of the best moments tonight:
Only 5th great grandparent in, “Birthplace of father, Africa. Birthplace of mother, Africa”
Which would make Sterling K Brown ancestors “recent Africans” in terms of the slavery trade. Unlike 99% of African Americans who by the same time as when his ancestors were documented, had already had multiple generations of enslaved ancestors…wow.
Such a great show. If you’ve never seen it, do yourself a favor and check out some old ep and tune in for new ones on PBS!
(((CassandraLeo)))
@jl: It’s likelier that the Iranians have read any book than that Trump has. Including The Art of the Deal. Maybe especially The Art of the Deal.
Adam L Silverman
@(((CassandraLeo))): Similarly, Rousseau put all the really radical and interesting stuff in his discourses in the footnotes because he figured the Calvinist Masters of Geneva wouldn’t read it and order his execution for heresy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Martin
@lamh36: Was really pleased to see Henry Gates in Watchmen.
Kent
@lamh36: There were an estimated 460,000 Iraqi casualties as a result of Bush’s Iraq war. We didn’t get much reporting about them either. No sure why you would expect the media to start now.
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: Enjoy!
Adam L Silverman
@Bill Arnold: You saw my post last night? To answer your question about reading material?
Another Scott
@jl: Indeed!
Another good one:
Hmmm….
Very wise dude, that Sun Tzu. Would have voted for conviction in the Senate, no doubt. No wonder Donnie hasn’t read him.
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: We’ve sent a wing of B52s to Diego Garcia. So that part is accurate.
Martin
@Adam L Silverman: Can’t imagine we wouldn’t have done that regardless of what happened tonight.
Barbara
@Adam L Silverman: I would be way too nervous that I would accidentally spend my life savings.
Jay Noble
The Art of War was recommended reading for an Advertising degree at UNL back in the 80’s. The long time head of the department was a prototype MadMan
jl
” 6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged
warfare. ”
From The Art of War
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/132/132-0.txt
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Another Scott: Donald Trump is trying to do as much of all five as he can!
Ceterum censeo factionem Republicanam esse delendam.
Don
@lamh36: that was a moving moment, I agree.
patrick II
All of this discussion about the real meaning of the “Art of War” isn’t about was makes me think that either the book has an incorrect title or. the word we are translating as “War” in the title has some shaded meaning in the original Chinese.
jl
” 12. There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:
(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and
trouble. ”
So, by Sun Tzu logic, we’ll be lucky if Trump Excellent Iran Adventure avoids a real mess. Trumpsters and GOP don’t have any problem from (5) all by itself. But I saw a line that said you shouldn’t treat them like disposable tools either (though lost where it is now). So, worrisome on all five counts.
Butter Emails
@Adam L Silverman:
Even in the off chance that Trump orders an attack on the refineries, does Hannity actually believe that the tactics utilized would involve simply sending in the B-52s?
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
I have to admit that I was also a bit skeptical. I take nothing away from the translator, but did not quite believe that this interpretation of the book only became clear in this new translation. I would want to know how Chinese scholars, and military people, viewed the work.
Apart from this, I am interested in knowing if the translation is lucid, elegant, readable, as well as its interpretative bent.
Adam L Silverman
@Martin: They were repositioned to Diego Garcia over the weekend.
Barbara
@Jay Noble: It drives me mad that any business person could think there is actually some kind of correspondence between war and business. While working on a dispute between two rather large companies, I happened on an email from one senior muckety muck to another at the other party, asking for an agreement for all the employees in both companies to dial down the animosity because the dispute was only about money. If your dispute is only about money, you should not be making analogies to military conflict.
Kent
There must be some lesson from Tzun Tzu involved here. Ignore your enemies like they don’t exist
Martin
@Adam L Silverman: My understanding is we do this as a precautionary measure with some regularity. I would take it as ‘these might be more useful over there right now’ rather than ‘let’s go bomb some stuff’.
debbie
@Patricia Kayden:
She and her compatriots need a new schtick.
Adam L Silverman
@patrick II: The point is actually to win without fighting. To leverage all other forms of national power to achieve one’s objective other than the use of force. That war is politics with other (military) means to use the Clausewitzian formulation. And to try to constrain the strategist, the general, and the decision-maker (prince, king, emperor, etc) from actually waging war by demonstrating just how damaging it is even to the victor and, therefore, how much better it is to achieve one’s objective by means other than military. It is very much the ancient Taoist equivalent of:
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Well I don’t think we have to worry about #5 with the President.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Trump will never bomb the oil he says he wants to take.
Adam L Silverman
@Butter Emails: We’re not going to attack their refineries. I’m sure Hannity would love for it to happen because he has no actual understanding of the problem set and its complexities, and he thinks that if he says it on air he can get the President to do it, but the reality is it won’t be on the targeting options that the President is presented with. And after the fallout that we’re living through from last week’s inclusion of the extreme outlier targeting option, which I’m convinced was included because Pompeo and Pence pushed for it knowing they’d been pushing the President about it for months an that GEN Milley most likely did NOT know they’d been doing that, GEN Milley is going to go through any military option selection list with a fine tooth comb before it is briefed to the President for his decision.
Adam L Silverman
@Martin: Pretty much.
Bill Arnold
@Adam L Silverman:
I did not see them, oops. They look good, studying now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
amazing, and a huge relief– I wonder if the Iranians gave the Iraqi gov’t some kind of heads-up
Barbara
@Kent: The only clips of Meghan McCain I like are the ones where she can’t get a word in edgewise. Warren is so impressive.
Brachiator
@jl:
Was it Trump who said something stupid like “Iran has never won a war or lost a negotiation?”
zhena gogolia
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m about to go to bed so I won’t see your answer until morning, but you have respect for Milley?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Barbara: God grant me the self-confidence of a dimwitted trust-fund baby with double membership in the Lucky Sperm Club and actually negative levels of self-awareness.
jl
I hope Trump’s ‘All’s Well’ tweet means that someone marched some central casting generals into his office to tell him the Iran strike with (from what we know so far) little damage and no US casualties means that he won, and won big, the biggest most beautiful foreign policy victory ever.
Though apparently some Iraqi casualties, which might be a problem in Iraq, and should be to normal people, but not Trumpsters, GOP or US corporate media.
When this news first broke a commenter in an earlier thread said that such a small strike could really be all there is too it. That thought has been circulating through my mind.I assume some of the competent IC and military leadership are not assuming that this strike is all the retaliation there will be from Iran.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
Good clip. Good for her.
Another Scott
The US FAA warned American planes away from the region today.
Now Al Jazeera is reporting that a Ukrainian plane has crashed near Tehran according to Iranian media (just a headline for now).
I hope they’re not related… :-(
Cheers,
Scott.
geg6
@Adam L Silverman:
I was in college in the early 80s, so it goes back at least that far. He had contrary views about Machiavelli, too. Or at least, contrary to the popular understanding, not the academic understanding.
Adam L Silverman
@zhena gogolia: I don’t know him personally. But one of the now retired general officers I’ve known and worked for for years, and still do consulting for, thinks very, very highly of him.
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
I love that show. I still remember when John Legend found out that his family had been at the center of one of the biggest antebellum court cases over Black people being re-stolen back into slavery and he had NO idea.
jimmiraybob
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m reading Martha Nussbaum’s The Cosmopolitan Tradition (2019) and there’s a section on Hugo Grotius and the development of modern theory of international law and just war. There seems to be some interesting parallels with The Art of War. Looks like I’ll have to buy another book.
Any insight?
Mnemosyne
Also, having a fever of 102 degrees is way less fun than you’d think. Stupid useless flu shot. ?
AJ
@Adam L Silverman: I preferred the Calvinist Masters of Geneva in their electro-funk era.
Adam L Silverman
@jimmiraybob: Grotius is very interesting and worth reading.
Adam L Silverman
@jimmiraybob: By insight, what exactly are you asking?
jl
@AJ: “I preferred the Calvinist Masters of Geneva in their electro-funk era”
They really took off after they changed their name from the Tower of Dour.
Martin
Not sure if I should go for the Iran Air 655 joke or the Boeing 737 joke here or the Putin owning Trump joke here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
not to hang crepe, but…
this thread makes depressing sense to me
I suspect trump will not be able to resist this “off-ramp”, and within less than twenty-four hours, won’t be able to start declaring victory in increasingly obnoxious ways, especially at his next Sixty Minute Hate, and people in Iran and in their sphere of influence will notice
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep, they have their own timelines. And they will respond based on that, not on what we think is a response. Tonight was the overt, face saving necessity response. It is not the real response.
jimmiraybob
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m wondering if there’s any crossover from The Art of War to the Stoic school that Nussbaum argues influenced Grotius.
Adam L Silverman
@jimmiraybob: Conceptually yes. I’m not really sure there is an overt connection. I don’t have any information that indicates that Grotius and his contemporaries were reading even translated copies of Sun Tzu. So it may just be parallel development.
jimmiraybob
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks.
PIGL
@Adam L Silverman: I’ve only ever read that brigadier of marines’ translation.
Swords are fearful weapons. Those who will not put down Swords will be consumed by them.
Or words to that effect
Frankensteinbeck
Well, if we’re on ancient literature, I read the Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini recently, and I have to say, narcissists talked the same in the 1500s as they do today. I kept expecting the pope to break down crying and thank Benvenuto for all he’s done for Italy, Sir.
God, what an asshole Benvenuto is. Unlike Trump, however, he was a magnificent goldsmith and sculptor. He probably did not actually have a luminous halo, however.
Adam L Silverman
@jimmiraybob: You’re welcome.
Adam L Silverman
@PIGL: I’m pretty sure that is an older and less accurate translation. Though it sounds poetic. There are also (at least) two (I’m not going through the Tao Te Ching at this hour) related teachings in the Tao Te Ching on this. One is “shiny weapons are instruments of ill omen, use them only as a last resort” or some variant thereof depending on who is translating. The other is a bit longer:
It may be that the quote you’re remembering from the Brigadier of Marines’ translation is of this latter passage.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
good to know sound stable minds like Rudi and Newton LeRoy have virtual walk-in privileges in the president’s brain
PIGL
@Adam L Silverman: The version I read and studied was the 1982 reissue of Samuel B Griffith’s tanslation of the 13 chapters & commentaries. And yes, the language is somewhat poetic perhaps even orientalist. I enjoyed it enormously at the time.
ETA: With a forward by Liddell Hart
Adam L Silverman
@PIGL: Liddell Hart for the win!
Keithly
@Adam L Silverman: FWIW, Cleary’s is my preferred translation too. I appreciate the contextualization that his extensive familiarity with a broad corpus of texts brings to his work.
Adam L Silverman
@Keithly: That is why I like it too.
fedupwithhypocrisy
I thought Sarah Palin was the first woman scholar to translate The Art of War, haha.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I wonder if Trump will blame Rudy for this mess. It can’t be his own fault, obviously.
Anne Laurie
New Open Thread now at top, if anyone’s been looking for one.
Matt McIrvin
@debbie: Trump is a complete fool and I’m not sure any logical extrapolation from things he’s said in the past can be trusted to govern his actions.
jimmiraybob
@Adam L Silverman:
Just in case this might find it’s way….
I did some Googling and apparently The Art of War wasn’t introduced to the west until an 18th century Jesuit, Father Amiot, missionary did a translation into French (1872).
Thanks to Anne Laurie for the intriguing post and Adam and others for their insights.
jimmiraybob
@jimmiraybob: Oops. Translation date should have been 1772.