This is a thing of beauty.
I went ALLL the way off on #WokeAF Daily yesterday about the #IvotedforHillaryClinton. Listen and Subscribe: https://t.co/C3Nnzc6JcD pic.twitter.com/IkE5mmE9Zo
— DanielleMoodie-Mills (@DeeTwoCents) January 9, 2020
Open thread
The Thin Black Duke
I need a fucking cigarette.
Msb
I. Love. This.
thanks!
SiubhanDuinne
Excellent ringtone. I would love to be in meetings with you.
(I actually thought you were going to share the “quacking duck” ringtone, which I’ve used for years. Don’t know how to link audio, if that’s even possible for BJ plebeians.)
TaMara (HFG)
@SiubhanDuinne: You have a quack ringtone? I must have.
Nicole
Not only do I want it for a ringtone, whoever calls me is going to have to wait because I’m going to let the whole thing play out before I answer.
Barbara
I know this has been said, but it’s hard for me to understand why Trump is surprised that he isn’t getting credit for killing an Iranian commander. It is definitely the case that Bush successfully capitalized on people’s fear of terrorism, and his administration definitely manipulated those so called terror alert levels. But I always thought they had a certain awareness that the goal of the exercise was to persuade people, even fearful people, that Bush would keep them safe.
I am not interested in arguing whether it was a big charade, of course it was. But Trump doesn’t seem to understand that at this point, people are more afraid of what he’s going to do than they are of being attacked by Iranian terrorism. His actions are impulsive, ill-judged, erratic, not capable of rational explanation and altogether frightening the bejesus out of a lot of people. Can they really be that stupid? Of course they can, but it really is kind of crazy.
trollhattan
Damn well said, Skippy. She did warn us and was right down to each minute detail.
Baud
Baud!/Danielle Moodie-Mills! 2020!
trollhattan
@Barbara:
“I killed a Bad Man whose name nobody heard of before today. Aren’t I great?”
Yup, that needed a little more work.
West of the Rockies
Man, no damn lie told there! Misogyny (among white women, too) in support of the patriarchy, Russian interference, GOP gerrymandering and voter suppression, and white supremacy backlash because of the verwy scarwy black man who had been president.
satby
That was so awesome I shared it on FB and eagerly look forward to butthurt comments about the language from my righty stalkers.
lollipopguild
@Barbara: And his cult followers are just as stupid and deranged as he is. He knows nothing and he understands nothing.
Baud
See, this is the speech I would have liked to see Warren give. Wouldn’t require her to change one whit of her policies.
trollhattan
@West of the Rockies:
How many versions of “I want a woman president, just not her” have we all endured?
Me in 2020: “Okay, prove it.”
Ella in New Mexico
At the risk of repeating myself, from an earlier, less applicable thread:
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/01/09/where-is-petes-support-coming-from/#comment-7538966
Ok I admit it. I’m down for a Clinton/Warren 2020 ticket. Or a Clinton/Harris 2020 ticket. Or a Clinton/Booker 2020 ticket. Or a Clinton/Castro 2020 ticket. Or a Clinton/Whoever She Thinks Is Good 2020 ticket.
Jeffro
The guy just wants to be worshipped for, well, basically anything and everything. And why not? Everything good that has ever happened, anywhere*, came about because of His efforts.
*But most especially, after the black guy f***ed it all up
Dems, you are obviously being way too partisan by refusing to prostrate yourselves.
lollipopguild
@Baud: I would really like Warren to say the same in a public speech, without the cursing, because the cursing would cause the snowflake right to clutch their pearls and demand their fainting couches.
Baud
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
Fell? Or was pushed?
zhena gogolia
Did somebody put a microphone in my bedroom?
WaterGirl
I couldn’t have the whole thing as my ringtone or I would fly into a rage every time my phone rang.
But the closing? Oh yeah, I could listen to that:
Omnes Omnibus
@Kamala.Harris.2020: Voter suppression. It was, for example, the first election the voter ID law was enforced in WI.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: hahaha
zhena gogolia
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
Oh, yeah, let’s blame the black people.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
As long as we’re doing ringtones, that could be one, too.
Hoodie
@Ella in New Mexico: You could also say that we would have been better off if Clinton had won the democratic nomination in 2008. Obama would have been running for his second term in 2020.
Baud
@TaMara (HFG):
Oh, I thought that was an OT comment.
TaMara (HFG)
@Kamala.Harris.2020: I just trashed my reply. Let’s consider this a troll and don’t let them derail the thread.
Kamala.Harris.2020
@zhena gogolia:
Obviously not. We need to blame the white women!!!
Didn’t you listen to the audio in the OP
I mean I think the single most important project as we approach 2020 is deciding exactly which part of the democratic coalition we need to be hating on.
Yutsano
@TaMara (HFG): To be fair, this commentator has made decent comments before. But yeah this is not their shining moment. Hell you have the ability to remove it. I would honestly.
TaMara (HFG)
@Baud: Maybe…if it’s an honest discussion of why and not just blame.
Frankensteinbeck
@Barbara:
“A black man did it. It can’t be difficult.” I could go into a lot of detail, but that’s what it boils down to.
James E Powell
@trollhattan:
If our candidate is female, we will hear them all again, with a few new ones thrown in for the hell of it.
zhena gogolia
@Hoodie:
Oh, God, I can’t deal with sad counter-factuals today. I was just remembering meeting Al Gore on a plane and going into such depression. What if he had been president?
Barbara
@Ella in New Mexico: I say this in the nicest way, but counterfactuals are mostly a waste of time.
Baud
@TaMara (HFG): No, you read it correctly. My bad.
Cacti
Anyone remember the “immigration activist” who got in Biden’s face in Greenwood, SC back in November?
You’ll all be shocked to learn that he’s a Bernie-bot.
And now officially on the payroll.
Patricia Kayden
TaMara (HFG)
@Yutsano: I think they are going to get dragged, which is fine, but I’d rather the thread be productive. But I’m thinking that’s too much to as of BJ these days. Sigh. Sad face.
Baud
@Cacti:
Liar.
Ella in New Mexico
@Hoodie: Actually, I’ve played that same scenario over in my mind many times. He’s also have been a bit more weathered and maybe not have been so susceptible to the whole “bipartisan” influences that often were a part of his worst decisions.
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: @TaMara (HFG): TaMara is not the only front pager who suspects this person may be a troll. There are others who think that, as well.
edit: For me, the jury is still out.
SiubhanDuinne
@TaMara (HFG):
Yes, it’s one of the standard iPhone ringtones.
zhena gogolia
@Ella in New Mexico:
I hate to tell you, but the President of the United States is supposed to at least attempt to be bipartisan. Obama knew exactly what he was doing. He was doing his job. I know we’ve forgotten what that looks like.
Elizabelle
I am going to bring a troll down on me, but got to say:
I am not comfortable with all the complaining about 53% of white women who did not vote for Hillary Clinton. Because white women, particularly educated white women, are an enormous part of the Democratic base and a huge source of its volunteers.
If it were 85% or something, yes, you would have a point.
My spidey sense goes up when I hear this again and again and again and again. Because it’s a good way to (subliminally) dismiss the next white woman candidate — look! She’s one of them — it’s a white woman! (And the leading one used to be a Republican — did you know that?!) — and to look funny at those who are your allies.
I find it very divisive. I really feel like it’s slapping your friends in their face to keep bringing that up here, because it’s not like this blog is Red State.
Do not forget how effectively the Kamala is a cop! meme was deployed.
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: I already pied the fucker on their second comment here. Yes, this person is a troll, yes, they are up to no good here.
Use that damn pie filter, kids. It’s super useful.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ella in New Mexico:
I’ve heard this a lot for over a decade now, but I’m not sure what he was actually supposed to do differently. Stuff like how the ACA and the Stimulus turned out were negotiations within the Democratic Party, not negotiations with Republicans. In budget negotiations where he did not have the upper hand, it consistently turned out that he’d swindled the GOP and gotten a slightly better deal than status quo. I guess he appointed a couple of Republicans, but in Obama’s position I certainly would not have predicted Comey’s actions.
Martin
@Frankensteinbeck: That’s part of it, but Trump also thinks he’s living in the immediate post-political state from 9/11, and not the post-political state of nearly two decades in Iraq and Afghanistan with a deteriorating domestic state and fuck-all to show for our foreign adventurism.
Know what’s attractive about a nuclear treaty with Iran? It’s cheap as fuck and lets us focus our government on shit at home. People like that. A lot.
Kattails
@Ella in New Mexico: unfortunately a bit long for a bumper sticker but I could make it work.
@Hoodie: That is a recurring, alternately painful and wistful, thought in my head. SIGH
Ella in New Mexico
@zhena gogolia: bipartisan meaning trusting the R’s would care as much about our country and solving problems as Dems did? Cuz Merrick Garland to ya.
No, seriously I totally agree. It would be great if we could go back to those days before a McConnell could vow to make a completely decent and sincere Pres like Obama a one term POTUS no matter how destructive it was for the country and over any legislative efforts to better the lives of our citizens.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
I agree with you about the risks of stereotyping. OTOH, not even 85% of working class white men support Trump.
We really should consider figures that exclude the South. The South is in uniquely divided on race beyond all other factors, and tend to skew the national picture, I think.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Barbara:
None of the admin seem to understand this. They all expect to be believed and obeyed by the public but most people don’t believe them anymore because they literally lie all the time and are incompetent. Mnuchin announced that Trump’s travel expenses won’t be released until after the election. How can that be spun as anything else but trying to protect Trump? It’s like they don’t care about appearances anymore, which is precisely what’s going on. Yet they still feel entitled to be taken seriously
Mnemosyne
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
So weird how preventing Black voters from being allowed to vote caused a sharp drop in the number of Black voters! The drop was inexplicable … for morons like you.
https://thinkprogress.org/2016-a-case-study-in-voter-suppression-258b5f90ddcd/
Martin
Then why did so many vote for Trump?
Black ?? women ?? show ?? up. Every goddamn time.
Ella in New Mexico
@Barbara:
I know. I’m just emotional lately,
Dry January came at a really bad time this year. ?
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Nah, Black people in Wisconsin decided to stay home in droves because Hillary didn’t campaign there! I heard it on the intertubes! ?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Voter suppression is something the MSM never talks about in their horse race narratives, at least none I’ve ever seen.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: In Massachusetts, HRC won every demographic. Even the much maligned white men.
Mnemosyne
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
Um, given that 53 percent of white women voted for Trump, I’m not sure by what stretch of the imagination you would call them part of the Democratic coalition.
But, hey, keep blaming the people who had their voting rights involuntarily stripped away. It’s a great look for you.
(Okay, TaMara, I’ll stop now.)
zhena gogolia
@Ella in New Mexico:
So what could Obama have done about Merrick Garland? I’m interested to know.
We all should have gone out to protest that one. The “Million Woman March” was a little too late.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
That was a righteous rant and everything about it was correct. It was like a BJ FPer/commenter said it
Elizabelle
@Martin: OK. I don’t belong here any more.
See you.
WaterGirl
@The Moar You Know: Yep. We are collectively gonna need to be a lot smarter or at least more restrained about not responding to trolls, because troll activity is already picking up and it’s gonna get uglier as 2020 goes on.
With the new pie filter, you get the choice of a picture, a dessert saying or nothing at all but the person’s nym and comment number. You can click on Toggle if you ever want to see what a pied person has said, and then Toggle again to hide it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Elizabelle:
Don’t go! I can’t speak for everyone here, but I always enjoy reading your comments. You belong here.
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Yes, you do belong here, Elizabelle!
We need people here who care, who are willing to speak up and say the hard things even if it’s not popular.
You are important, please don’t feel like you don’t belong.
James E Powell
@zhena gogolia:
One the reasons I struggle to deal with 2016 is that I never really got over 2000.
Kamala.Harris.2020
@Elizabelle:
Exactly so
Please ignore the self-appointed thread hall monitors around here.
They imagine they are scoring big social media points or something. They’re useless.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@WaterGirl:
Couldn’t a dedicated troll just keep changing their nym/email address to get around the pie filter?
Mnemosyne
@Elizabelle:
I’m currently watching Romance Writers of America collapse in on itself because a small group of Nice White Ladies can’t accept that they aren’t in the majority anymore, so they’re spitefully destroying the whole thing rather than leaving or adapting so that those of us who want a more diverse membership can have it.
So, yeah, I’ve seen way too much recent bad behavior from white women for me to think that they will be our saviors this year, and I AM a white woman.
zhena gogolia
@Elizabelle:
I don’t see why this is a deal-breaker. We can agree to disagree about it. I can’t understand why any woman of whatever ethnicity would vote for this rapist, but there you have it.
Baud
@Martin:
White women are more divided than they should be in our view. So is the “working class” as a whole.
Frankly, it’s a sign of the unhealthiness of our democracy that people of color and especially black people vote for Dems as much as they do. They deserve to have political parties competing for their vote just like white people. But with most white voters gravitating to the GOP for racial reasons, what other option is there?
WaterGirl
@Elizabelle: Elizabelle, you understand better than most how trolls sow discord and attempt to get us to turn on each other.
We cannot let them win.
zhena gogolia
@James E Powell:
Me either. And I’m not so sure what happened in 2004 either.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Mnemosyne:
The collapse, referring to this?
Mnemosyne
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Yup. It’s a giant mess, and a huge part of the problem is a small core of racist white women who have decided that if they can’t be in control, they would rather destroy the organization. It’s really sad.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: Elizabelle isn’t saying that white women are the saviors, or need to be seen as the saviors.
But if 53% were for the Dumpster, that’s 47% who weren’t, and a lot of those people work their butts off for candidates. Elizabelle is one of them. So why wouldn’t she take that personally? All white women do not suck. A lot of them do – about half the country does – but turning on one another is not the answer.
I do not understand why we continually do this to one another.
I get so frustrated with the boomers need to die off before we can have anything good crap. You know what, some boomers suck and a lot of boomers are active on this blog.
Why do we have to shit on each other? We are all on the same side.
Mnemosyne
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
And your response to the evidence that Black voters were massively suppressed in 2016?
Crickets.
Lovely victim blaming, by the way. Very on brand for you.
Kamala.Harris.2020
@WaterGirl:
Well, given that you are I are saying essentially the same thing in this thread, you might want to think sharpening your definition of “troll.”
Here’s what I said.
Baud
It was a good try, TaMara.
WaterGirl
@Kamala.Harris.2020: What I do know is that you came really hard out of the gate, with what seemed to be your very first comment on Balloon Juice, attacking democratic candidates in a way that was very divisive on Balloon Juice.
And there’s discord in a lot of the threads you are active in.
You and I may have agreed on one point in this thread, but there is no match between us as to what I said in my first 2 paragraphs here.
JPL
@Baud: The real joke is one those that think Wilmer cares about immigrants.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
I have had to grow a thick skin recently because of this whole RWA mess. If it’s not about me, it’s not about me. If I’m not the one who did those things, then I’m not the one they’re talking to or upset with.
Taking offense every time someone points out that white women often suck as a collective is honestly a waste of my time. All I can do is not take it personally and try to do better if I can.
And it’s especially bad because the troll is deliberately trying to foster this by leaving out EXTREMELY vital facts about voter suppression in 2016 to sow division and claim that Black voters were really to blame. ?
Baud
@JPL:
I hope we never find out, but I’d be curious to see how a President Wilmer deals with immigration while chasing the approval of “former” working class white Trump voters.
Mnemosyne
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
So have you already forgotten what you posted at comment #18, or are you and Dmitri accidentally using the same pseudonym at the same time again?
Msb
@ Mnemosyne
Good News: RWA leadership, sitting in the smoking ruins, has resigned (https://www.rwa.org/Online/News/2020/Announcement_from_the_RWA_Board_of_Directors.aspx). Not that removing one or two of the leading sh*ts is going to clean this Augean Stable, but it’s a start.
BruceFromOhio
@lollipopguild: what irks me no end is that these twobit ratfuck soulless motherfuckers are still allowed to vote.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne:
I try to stay away from “you always” and “you never”, which can be like a red flag with a bull for a lot of people.
Elizabelle works her ass off – didn’t she go to Virginia and elsewhere to work in 2018? Her point is valid – why do we tar everyone with the same brush?
boomers are this, millennial are that. even if it’s 55% who are, there’s still 45% who aren’t. old people are awful, they support trump, i can’t wait until they die off. NOT HELPFUl.
We’re not outside the tent pissing in, or inside the tent pissing out, we are inside the tent pissing on each other.
We need to be smarter about this.
MJS
@Kamala.Harris.2020: So now people who voted for someone other than the Democratic candidate are part of the “Democratic coalition”? I’m not sure you understand the definition of “coalition.”
JPL
@WaterGirl: As the election nears, folks are on edge and will lash out. That’s all it is though, and we need to ignore some of it.
Also if Hillary doesn’t jump into the race, I’m staying home.
?️
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Mnemosyne:
That really is sad. Reminds me a bit of the sad puppies who tried to derail the Hugo Awards a few years back for their preferred pulp scifi
kindness
I am impressed with that tweet. It pretty much says it all.
Mnemosyne
@Msb:
I’ve seen a LOT of complaints about the Executive Director, so I’m really glad that she’s gone. I know Damon slightly since I’ve taken a couple of classes with him. He’s a great teacher and a good guy, but I think he shot himself in the foot by trying to be too clever.
There’s going to need to be a housecleaning of the permanent staff, because that’s where a huge number of the roadblocks seem to be. The Board of Directors is all authors, so they don’t have a lot to do with the day-to-day stuff that’s become such a huge problem, like the members-only message boards that have become a sewer of racist bullshit.
JPL
Since I’m on an antenna, I tend to watch local channels, and I have to say that I’m so sick of Bloomberg’s ads. Geez give it a break. It must be a boon for local stations though.
Duane
@The Moar You Know: I couldn’t spot a troll under a bridge, but I saw that one quick enough.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Barbara: Trump was elected to POWN the Libertards by breaking things, Suddenly since breaking like a but-hole means a real war it’s not longer fun and games for even his base who realize it will be their grand-kids who will die it in it.
Kent
@James E Powell:
@zhena gogolia:
Yes, and for my mother it was November 22, 1963 and what might have been
And then June 6, 1968 and what might have been.
Why is it always like that?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@JPL: He’s always got an ad during the sports segment on the local news here in LA(NBC).
germy
Damn. I think I’m running out of toner.
Kamala.Harris.2020
@MJS:
Srsly?
Are you actually saying that democratic candidates should not try to appeal to white women in 2020 because only 47% of them voted for Hillary?
If not, then what is your point?
If you are actually saying that white women are not part of the Democratic coalition, then I ask: Is Hillary Clinton part of the democratic coalition?
Democrats need to work for every vote they can get.
trollhattan
@germy:
Heh. :)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@germy: LOL
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Baud: We know what’s he’d done recently.
He voted for Dump’s racist wall. He repeatedly voted against immigration reform. He went on the racist Lou Dobbs show and blamed Latinos for stagnant wages.
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
I think the key difference between Bush and Trump on this point is what they’re after. Bush was a conventional politician who was interested in this stuff for political reasons. Obviously he was gratified if people liked him, but he mostly cared about getting reelected. Trump, though, is a narcissist. He cares deeply about what people think about him. Trump desperately wants not just to be reelected but to be publicly adored. Because of that, he’s trying to replicate the things that other presidents did that got them public acclaim. But those things depended on their particular circumstances, so Trump’s attempt to replicate them is doomed to fail.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
I’m hoping that Elizabelle will cool off and come back in a day or two, especially since she was reacting to someone who’s been kind of a dick here lately who was reacting to a troll who is transparently trying to sow division (loved how they tried to draw you into being on their side — not transparent at all!)
The audio didn’t bother me because I didn’t think at all that it was aimed at all white women. It was specifically aimed at the people — including but not exclusively white women among them — who refused to vote for Hillary for bogus reasons. The Jill Steins and Susan Sarandons who still think they have some kind of moral high ground after inflicting Trump on us. I definitely didn’t hear it as a blanket condemnation of all white women, but YMMV.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
I was watching ESPN and it was a little boring, so I changed the channel to MSNBC to see what was going on and I completely forgot Chuck Todd is on this time of day and, predictably, I caught him doing his “Dems in Disarray” routine. Click. No wonder his show is being cancelled.
opiejeanne
This morning I looked at my checking account and discovered that I had signed up for a senior dating site, for $31. Also, I bought groceries from a place in Marina de Rey. about the same total. The dating site refunded my money while I was on hold with my Credit Union, so that was nice.
The CU said we’d get our remaining money in a couple of weeks. @$34, not too worried.
Picked up a new card at the brick and mortar CU in town, but I’m still wondering about being signed up for a dating service. I’m quite married and yes, I’m nearly 70 so that makes me the right age, but I am so not interested in another husband, especially when I’ve gotten so comfortable with this one.
opiejeanne
@WaterGirl: Hear, hear!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
Damnit Janet!
John Cole
well that earned a follow from me
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@trollhattan: Have you been keeping up on the recent trades: Ohai to Chicago, Sonnett to Orlando, Stengel to Houston. Wow.
waysel
53 % of white women showed up ‘en masse’ to vote for Trump. They have no regrets. They don’t feel ‘responsible’ for anything wrong or problematical. It’s a misguided rant. The sad news is, most Trump or Stein voters won’t be swayed by current realities to regret their past choices. The Trump women are happy, the Stein voters will be no more savvy next time around. They’ll fall for the same crap from some Seinish character.
Yutsano
@opiejeanne: What, no Denobulan marriage for you? :P
The Dangerman
Can we get Ms. Moodie-Mills as one of the townhall questioners when we get there?
jeffreyw
@opiejeanne: Well, a little additional help around the place would be nice.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@opiejeanne:
What don’t you want an open marriage? ; p
Honestly, that’s pretty bizarre for a hacker to buy
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: The audio didn’t bother me, either – perhaps I am wrong, but I got the impression that Elizabelle’s comments weren’t directly aimed at that audio as much as it was aimed at all the dismissive talk we have on BJ about white women.
I am beyond angry at all the people I know who voted for Trump, voted third party and stayed home. All but one of those people is a white woman. But subsets of them are also evangelicals, racist, sexist, etc.
Statistics are useful, but I don’t like that they get used as weapons here sometimes.
I’ll say again that I think we would be much better off on BJ if we would learn to not paint with such a broad brush. Sure, we fight about stuff here, but this kind of conversation is different than that.
We’re attacking huge swaths of people, and some of those people are us.
JPL
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Yup in GA. We wouldn’t be bombarded if we lived in Iowa or NH cuz he’s a coward and know he’d lose. blech
WaterGirl
@opiejeanne: That’s what they do. Charge small amounts, and if no one notices, they go for the bigger haul. Good for you for catching it right away.
Mnemosyne
@opiejeanne:
That does seem a little weird. I know that there are certain types of “test” sites that scammers use to make sure that the card number they got was valid, but I didn’t think that a senior dating site would be one of them. Though I suppose it might be fertile ground for scamming money from lonely seniors?
MJS
@Kamala.Harris.2020: Seriously, you missed the point. I’m not saying the Democratic candidates should not try to appeal to every single voter they can. You were the one who made reference to a “coalition.” I just point out that, by definition, when the majority of a demographic votes for the other fucking candidate in an election, then for at least that election, that demographic is not part of the Democratic coalition.
And why are you so focused on such a small part of the OP anyway. She doesn’t blame “white women.” She blames the 53% of the white women who voted for Trump. She states that, specifically. She then also blames all people who 1) didn’t vote or 2) threw their vote away on Stein, etc. What exactly did the OP get wrong? Are you mad that she singled out white women? A good majority of white women voting for Trump sticks out like a sore thumb, given that 90% of black women understood that Trump would be a disaster, doesn’t it?
JPL
@WaterGirl: I don’t even bother speaking with a former friend who didn’t vote for Hillary although it wasn’t the vote that drove me away. She’s black but what finally drove me away is her excuses about trump’s love of Putin and the caging of babies on the border. Friends for thirty plus years, but it was no longer worth the effort.
Ruckus
@Barbara:
Are we assuming that the rabble is any smarter/less assholish than the dipshit not in charge?
I just assume they are his equal until proven otherwise. And they won’t be a lot higher on any scale or they would have deserted him far sooner.
germy
My wife has bad insomnia.
She finally consulted a physician who prescribed blue blocking glasses. But he told her to wear them in the morning.
This confused me, because I thought they’re supposed to be worn at night. He also prescribed a light box for SAD, but he told her to use it in the evening. Again, I always thought light boxes should be used i the morning.
Am I wrong to worry she’s getting bad advice?
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
The civil war started in 2016, and a whole lot of us are freaked out that the same civil war will cause us to lose this election because the “other side” refuses to admit to any fault whatsoever. So I think folks are on edge and will be on edge until we have some caucuses and votes under our belt to see what reality is. ?♀️
MJS
@Kamala.Harris.2020: You seem to have edited your comment while I was responding, so here’s another response. Since at least one person of every race and gender voted for Clinton, is the “Democratic Coalition” everyone?
Or, put another way, since there’s every possibility that a white male will be the Democratic nominee this year, does that make “white males” part of the “Democratic Coalition.”
I think you need to list the groups that comprise the “Democratic Coalition” or your original post makes absolutely no sense.
debbie
Hell, I’d go out and buy a phone if I could get that for a ringtone. No one I know would notice it, though; what she said is pretty much what I say every day, yelling at the radio, a stupid driver, or someone foolish enough to bring up politics in my presence.
zhena gogolia
All the person in the original tweet said was that the 53% of white women who voted for Drumpf bear some responsibility. Don’t they? I find it a shocking statistic.
John Revolta
@germy: Hmmmmm………………..he isn’t by chance selling her these gadgets is he? That might be a tad hincty.
Brachiator
Sorry I missed the fun of these comments. I was mentioning the other day that this lie about Hillary Clinton still bugs the shit out of me. I have no idea what people based this on. You could not say that it arose decidedly from anything that Bill Clinton had done during his presidency, for example. But people slinging this crap felt with absolute certainty that they knew what Hillary would do.
And a good chunk of these dopes are still unrepentant.
Ella in New Mexico
@zhena gogolia: that was more an example of how ruthless McConnell was, and how someone in Obama’s administration needed to play some Nancy Smash hardball with the bastard and make him squirm way more than he did.
Look, I’m not in any way shape or form wanting to go back and critique Obama’s decisions and what he had to deal with right now, believe me.
But there’s something to be said for idea that he might have been a bit more of a challenge to the Republicans with 8 extra years of experience being a powerhouse in the Senate before he became President.
But that’s for another day…and like Barbara said, counterfactuals are mostly a waste of time. :-D
WaterGirl
@JPL: It’s so strange. I am not a grudge holder, I’m sure I forgive people for stuff when almost everyone else would have walked away, etc.
I still love my extended family, but since the election, I no longer feel the same warmth I used to have toward them. I don’t see them the same way. What kind of person can help put that disgusting creature in office? Not the people I thought I knew. So now I have this coldness, even though I still love them.
Trump has destroyed so many things. He cannot win again.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
I’m an old white male and I’m pretty damn liberal. And I hear all the time about old white men are the problem. A lot of us are problematic as citizens, but we are not all the same. Any more than any group of humans larger than 2 .
zhena gogolia
@MJS:
You said it better!
Cheryl Rofer
I just came back and skimmed this comment thread, and I would like to say
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS
To echo WaterGirl, that’s what we have the pie filter for.
Arguing will not convince a troll, and it spreads the dissension and division that the troll is trying to provoke.
Is Kamala.Harris.2020 a troll? I don’t know. I do know that threads containing that nym seem to have more fighting than other threads. We’re pretty generous around here about people’s bad behavior, but we also have banned a very few people. My sense is that if it walks like a troll and quacks like a troll (sorry, TaMara!), it’s a troll.
As WaterGirl said, it’s going to get worse, so we have to get smart.
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: I completely agree that we are all on edge! We are living a nightmare and real people are dying, and worse.
I just want us to be smart enough to not turn on each other. BJ, even the snarling jackals that we are, should be more a place of refuge than a place to get beat up.
Your friends can hurt you way more than your enemies can.
germy
@John Revolta: He wrote down what brand of glasses to get. She ordered them online. Don’t know if he gets a kickback.
Am I wrong to think his advice is backwards?
Nicole
@Elizabelle: Hey, lovely commenter (I, like many others here, also enjoy your comments and suspect we’d get along great in person, too)- speaking as a fellow white woman who was an enthusiastic Hillary voter-
The 53% thing used to really upset me, too, but what I realized is that my upset was a reaction to being stereotyped, because that’s not something white people are accustomed to. Women are, of course, but specifically this is a white woman stereotype and we don’t usually get that. Or at least we weren’t aware of it until recently- thanks, social media #karen! And white folk are not accustomed to being stereotyped, certainly not the way people who are not white are stereotyped. It was a lesson for me in how it feels to be stereotyped, and how hurtful it is (and, by extension, why I should never do it in my life ever again and should feel bad about the times I did in the past, even if it was just ignorance).
And the thing is, we did vote for Trump. Not as much as we usually vote for the Republican candidate (and Clinton even won college educated white women, yay education), but we did. And I say “we” even though, no I, individually, have never voted for a Republican in my life, but I still say “we” because it reminds me the work we whites have to do is with other white people. I’m working up my nerve to have that conversation with a relative who I adore who lives in a swing state and who voted third-party last time because she couldn’t bring herself to vote for Trump, but also wouldn’t vote for Hillary, to tell her that anything other than a vote for the Democrat is a vote for Trump. And it’s going to suck and she’ll likely be super pissed at me, but if I’m going to be pissed about 53% white women being tossed around in rooms full of enthusiastic Hillary voters, then I need to do the work with my own fellow white women to try to move more white women to vote the sisterhood instead of the skinhood.
And you know, now the 53% stereotype doesn’t hurt me anymore, because I know it doesn’t apply to me, but it reminds me that I have a lot of work to do on the women it does apply to, and it’s my job to do it. Some days I do better than others, but I’m trying.
My two cents, for what it’s worth.
zhena gogolia
@Brachiator:
Oh, she was a “centrist,” so that includes all the sins.
When I walked into class the morning after Drumpf “won,” the first thing a student said was, “This shows the failure of neoliberalism.”
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl:
I have very little family left, but there are a couple of friends who fit this category. One who was yelling, “National security!” at me about why he couldn’t vote for HRC, and another who exclaimed, “She had Black Lives Matter at her convention! Why didn’t she have any police at her convention?” I cannot erase the coldness I feel toward them.
zhena gogolia
Frankly, the biggest troll around here in the last couple of days has been Mistermix, I’m not sure why.
zhena gogolia
@Nicole:
I don’t see why a statistic is viewed as a stereotype. It’s a fact, no more, no less. A fact we should acknowledge and deal with.
MJS
@zhena gogolia: Thank you, but given that yours was more succinct, and not in response to an obvious troll, your comment was significantly better.
Another Scott
I’ve been very skeptical of “exit polls” for a long time, because there seems to be so many ways that they could be non-representative. So I did some poking around.
Pew seems to have tried to make a decent one, but note all the caveats in their Methodology:
With all of that said, here’s what their report on 2016 validated voters says:
(Emphasis added.)
Even though they try to make the sample representative, and it probably is a decent proxy, there are error bars – 48/45 is not the same as 48/46. That’s a number – based on the measured total vote – that’s easy to check. It’s hard to know the error bars on the various subcategories because there is no measured data of the same specificity.
My big takeaway from this isn’t that, somehow, White Women are the Enemy, it’s that Democrats left a lot of votes on the table (by not appealing enough to them, by not fighting voter suppression hard enough, by people who support Democrats not donating enough time and dollars to the parties and organizations to GOTV, etc.).
Eyes on the prize.
Cheers,
Scott.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Brachiator:
Doubly ridiculous because a lot of the same idiots thought Trump wouldn’t start a war. He hasn’t yet, but he’s done something worse: destroy democratic institutions and our alliances
West of the Rockies
@WaterGirl:
Well said. I also get tired of the memes: all white men are terrible, all black people are homophobic, all boomers suck, all young voters are lazy and don’t show up…
Not every person in each group is horrible OR magnificent.
trnc
What makes the Garland issue difficult to second guess is the fact that Hillary was almost sure to win (EC as well as popular), so attempts to go around the senate may have been more dangerous than riding it out. In hindsight, or if that happens to a dem president again, I’d say that dems should have made it clear that there is no Biden rule (which they should have done anyway), and I’d like to have seen Obama swear in Garland at the beginning of the term and state that the senate’s abdication for 6 months is tacit approval. Let the republicans try to explain their legal basis in the ensuing court battle.
JPL
@zhena gogolia: Before we know it all the front pagers will be trolls, because we disagree with them.
?️
randy khan
@zhena gogolia:
It’s unfortunate but true that people often don’t recognize danger, particularly political danger, until it’s too late. In 2016, in particular, there was so much out there about how Trump couldn’t win that a lot of people got complacent and figured things would be fine when Hillary was elected, so they didn’t need to worry so much about what McConnell was doing to jerk around Obama. (That said, it would have taken massive protests to move the Republicans on Garland, which seems unlikely.)
I am really not a fan of the “heighten the contradictions” crowd, but it is clear that Trump’s election galvanized a huge chunk of a previously apathetic population, and that the energy has continued for a long time. I really, really hope it persists through Election Day 2020.
Brachiator
@waysel:
This is one of those oversimplifications that just won’t die. This figure is based on exit polls and total vote, but the national vote total does not determine the president. There are many states in which a majority of white women voted for Clinton. But more to the point, from a Time article:
But it ain’t 53 percent.
And education is still a much more important indicator:
And of course the elephant in the room is the number of white men who did not vote for Obama or Clinton.
But no matter how you slice it, it does not make sense to continually bash white women without looking at accurate numbers or other factors.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
You underestimate the amount of Clinton hate in the country at the time of the election.
I was surprised at the comments on youtube for Howard Stern’s interview with Hillary. I’d bet 90+% of them were about being shocked at how likable she actually was.
NotMax
@opiejeanne
There are husbands and then there are husbands.
:)
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: I think it’s because they aren’t just statistics – we turn them into labels.
Fucking white women! I am so sick of old, white men! Boomers just need to die off and everything will be better. Millenials are this. Generation X is that.
I try not to do it, but I know I’m guilty of “I’m so fucking sick of old, white men”. I don’t think we mean to do it, but we use the statistics as weapons, instead of as useful data.
So when I see Elizabelle feeling like she doesn’t belong here because of things we say without thinking, it makes me feel sick.
germy
Litany
@Cacti: I’m not sure “all the passionate young activists on the left edge of acceptable politics in America are flocking to the incredibly popular candidate on the left edge of acceptable politics in America!” is the devastating own you think it is.
Kamala.Harris.2020
@MJS:
That is as far as I got in the audio before I shut it off.
With this post from you, I think we are on the same page. I just think that “white women” are part of the democratic coalition – even if _only_ 47% of them voted for Clinton.
It is baffling to me why a white woman – or any other sentient being – would ever vote for Trump over Clinton but we need to keep that 47% and work on getting as much of the 53% we can. I can’t conceive of any scenario where dragging “white women” helps us do that.
Nicole
@zhena gogolia: I don’t disagree with you. It is a fact-a majority of white women voted for Trump, just as white women usually do in a Presidential election. I’m saying that the emotional reaction from white women who voted Clinton is rooted in the sense of being stereotyped. It’s the same thing that drives the #NotAllWhitePeople that so many of us white folk feel driven to proclaim at any instance of racist behavior. I’m saying that when white women can recognize the emotional response is based in hurt at being stereotyped and grouped with people who look like us but don’t vote like us, it makes it easier to recognize the hard work that we have to do going forward.
Same as us white folk needing to get it through our heads that the effects of systemic racism are far worse than being called “racist.”
(I didn’t say the response is rational. ?)
WaterGirl
@Another Scott:
That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to say for the last hour, but couldn’t seem to express. It’s not just a statistic – I suspect that’s what Elizabelle is feeling. Whether it’s white working class or white women, or gun owners, or whatever. We don’t have to cozy up to the ones in MAGA hats but we shouldn’t shit on the ones who share our values.
We need a coalition that includes black people who are 10x smarter about voting than we are, and the white women who work their assess off for candidates, and the gun owners who want reasonable limitations, and the old white men who are on our side.*
*And a boatload of other people. Those are just a few examples.
Brachiator
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Oddly enough, I thought that Trump might be reluctant to start a war, not because he is a man of wisdom, insight, or principle, but because he is a coward and fool who would be too afraid to deal with any negative reaction to the death of American troops. He is a man who craves praise and approval for all his thoughts and actions.
However, people are not real to him, and every day he believes more and more of his own bs. This makes him dangerous and more likely to do something foolish.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Hey Scott, are you still here? I have a question for you.
debbie
@Roger Moore:
It must kill him that after all these years of getting away with it, he’s being treated just like he’s treated others. This is the only thing that gives me any comfort these days.
Mnemosyne
@Another Scott:
I’m too lazy to dig into it myself, but did Pew ask the non-voters WHY they didn’t vote? Because otherwise we may have further proof of deliberate voter suppression based just on those statistics.
trnc
I tend to give people a pass on that single demographic bashing because old white men have primarily ruled the world by a large margin and have screwed up a lot. Non-white men and women have certainly screwed up quite a bit, too, but it’s especially difficult to see that old white men still have so much control in our supposedly enlightened democracy.
Mnemosyne
@Kamala.Harris.2020:
And yet you still don’t understand why it was assholish of you to blame Black voters for being blocked from voting.
Huh.
germy
Chyron HR
@Litany:
I realize that over on the BernieisLord.com message boards, his long history of white nationlist gun humping is viewed as “leftist”, but normal human beings tend disagree with that assessment.
(I’d also point out that 20% isn’t “incredibly popular”, but then you’d probably just resume shrieking that letting blacks vote is “rigging the polls” and nobody wants to listen to that.)
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
You were kind of right — Trump thought that he could assassinate Sulemani (I know, spelling) with no penalty and everyone would love him for it.
All of his fans now think that we managed to punch Iran in the face and get away with it, but I think that the sick look on his face yesterday meant that his staff managed to get through to him that shelling on American base was just the start of the Iranian response. He started this, but they’re planning to end it.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
You have described my immediate family, though I’m not sure I still love any of them. I do know I will never forgive them.
debbie
@germy:
A quick Google turns up more than a few sites that show they are worn at night. FWIW.
WaterGirl
@debbie: It’s very sad all the way around, isn’t it? On so many levels.
opiejeanne
@Yutsano: Haha. Not just now. I haven’t the energy for it.
I just started injecting insulin this week and I’m feeling much better already, but it’s going to take some work to get those numbers back where I had them in March, when everything was nearly normal.
opiejeanne
@jeffreyw: If I wanted I could find someone on my own, thank you very much. I’ve seen the way the old coots eye me when they think I’m single. The problem is that I doubt any of those guys is helpful around the house, and none of them was a prize.
debbie
@WaterGirl:
Yep, missed a niece’s high school graduation last year. ?
Mary G
@germy: I’m not a doctor, but I know blue light in the evening keeps you awake, so the glasses blocking it should seem to be worn then. The SAD light might help her wake up and hit the day instead of being sluggish in the morning. But call the doctor and ask, or get a second opinion.
Mnemosyne
@opiejeanne:
Did you say that they told you it was Type 1.5? I was reading about that a few years ago and it’s kind of freaky. It’s way more similar to Type 1 and requires similar treatment but doesn’t show up until adulthood, so it gets misdiagnosed a lot.
Mnemosyne
@germy:
Since the advice seems to be the exact opposite of normal, is it possible that she misheard him?
I guess it’s possible that he thinks she has a delayed sleep phase onset issue and needs to do things backwards for that reason, but she should probably call back and clarify.
You’ll have to fight for it, but you may want to have her get a sleep study. That would be able to pinpoint the actual problem much better.
Litany
@Chyron HR: I was referring to the polls indicating that Bernie remains the most popular politician in America in terms of approval rating. I’m not sure what you’re going on about, but it sounds incredibly normal and cool actually!
I don’t know what you’re really talking about when it comes to “letting the blacks vote.” I agree that Bernie did a bad job talking about racial justice in 2016, which is why I’m so glad that he’s taken that lesson to heart and come out with a much better platform this time around! It’s why he has a voting block that’s majority black and brown in 2020, including a clear majority of young minority voters who will be our party’s future! Plenty of more centrist Democrats like Buttigieg and Warren can’t say the same and are primarily buoyed by the political ambitions of affluent whites, so I’m sure you’ll be just as incisive and ruthless in highlighting their shortcomings.
In the same vein, I think Sanders could have done a better job threading the needle on gun rights. It’s hard to win elections as an outspoken socialist to begin with (let alone one who’s going to take away all the guns), but that’s no excuse for triangulation or political expediency! Why, I’m sure you’d be just as outraged at a hypothetical, nonexistent candidate who complained that Republicans weren’t tough ENOUGH in implementing their racist War on Drugs, made it a personal mission to reach across the aisle by cutting social security, or even voted for the abominable war crime that was the Iraq War! Democrats have a duty to take difficult stances even when it costs them elections, and this is a stance that we all of course apply judiciously and fairly to all the candidates in this important race.
trollhattan
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
Scrambling to try and keep up!
Everybody’s tired of getting their arses kicked by NC, and now it’s on.
2020 expansion is off the table, with two new teams probably in 2021.
Kathleen
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): That’s because the only “Real Voters Worth Talking About” (trademark) are white.
Kathleen
@zhena gogolia: Vote rattenficken in Ohio. John Conyers went to Columbus, held hearings, and wrote a book about it.
zhena gogolia
@Litany:
If nominated, he will lose in a crushing landslide. But then that’s the plan, isn’t it? Why else are they holding back on the oppo research?
https://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044
opiejeanne
@Mnemosyne: They’re looking at type 1.5, did some tests and one came back with the right markers, but the others weren’t in yet on Tuesday. The doc says it’s very rare and she’s never seen it; maybe 1% have it.
I’m still on Metformin and I do believe the very small dosage of insulin is helping. Ramping it up from 5 to 7 tomorrow. And I’m doing my own injections, because I’m so brave! Not. They don’t hurt but I’m really surprised that I’m not afraid to jab myself. Dave was going to be my backup plan for injections, but I’m relieved that I don’t have to make him do it for me.
I also have that little patch thingie that lets me scan my glucose any time I want. I thought having a needle stuck in me for two weeks would be less than great, but it’s really not annoying. It’s much better than stabbing your finger several times a day.
zhena gogolia
I don’t think I can survive the replay of Berniebro hysteria this election year.
opiejeanne
@zhena gogolia: I feel the same way but I’ve noticed a lot of pushback, more than in 2016 when women for Hillary voters felt so threatened they retreated into closed groups on Facebook to avoid the BerniBros. They were very busy on Twitter this morning again, behaving badly, and people were telling them why they were full of it. The red roses on Twitter are helpful because if I’m not in the mood I can just block them when I see the rose. (Why a rose? Why not a little bird?)
zhena gogolia
a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio
@WaterGirl: My only concern is that the GOP will find someone who sees that bit as a challenge.
Mnemosyne
@opiejeanne:
Yeah, it’s so rare that I think they only figured out that it existed about 10 years ago when someone noticed that there was a group of diagnosed Type 2 patients that didn’t respond to treatment. I’m glad they seem to be getting it figured out for you, though!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ella in New Mexico:
if he’d had more experience, he would have found some Constitutional magick beans?
The only “hardball” McConnell will respond to is losing his Senate majority. All this “Obama should have gone on TV and called McConnell a fuckface!” is nonsense.
Also, if you think Mitch McConnell is squirming right now, you must have some pretty big insights into Republican Senators and their coming rebellion the rest of us lack.
But there’s something to be said
I’ll bite: What is there to be said?
Mnemosyne
@zhena gogolia:
The poutrage when he loses the nomination — again — is going to be epic. Turns out that they weren’t opposed to the idea of a candidate being coronated ahead of time, they were just mad it wasn’t theirs. ?
I have to admit, I honestly didn’t think that Biden would make it this far, but he’s been surprisingly dogged and he’s getting better and more focused as time goes on. He’s still not my first, second, or third choice, but I could live with him.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: After a delay, yeah, I’m still here. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
opiejeanne
@Mnemosyne: Yes, I may be the zebra among the horses, when you hear hoofbeats.
I’m working with a physician who is also a pharmacist, and she’s good at listening and I feel so much better now
UncleEbeneezer
Oh good lord the fragility in this thread is just bonkers.
Look, the numbers don’t lie. 53% of white women who voted in the election, voted for Trump. My wife didn’t. My sister didn’t. All the amazing women (mostly white) in my Indivisible group who are doing the hard work of the Resistance, didn’t. But for every one of them there are slightly more than one out there who did vote for Trump. That’s called reality, and it’s been the reality in this country for a long time. Reality sucks, it hurts, it’s not fun, but ultimately we are better off facing it and trying to do something about it rather than lamenting the fact that someone dared bring it to our attention.
Read Mothers of Massive Resistance by Elizabeth Gillespie McRae. Read Out of the House of Bondage by Thavolia Glymph. Part of dismantling White Supremacy means taking a sober look at everyone involved in perpetuating it. The only reason the 53% or Old White Men would make us uncomfortable is because we have been allowed to be ignorant of just how shitty our race has been (and still is). As TheRoot’s Michael Harriott just wrote today “The greatest privilege that whiteness affords is the ability to overlook racism, hate, and inequality.” But we need to see ourselves as we are seen by those that we oppress if we ever want to be good partners/allies in the fight to end those oppressions. Asking people not to point out the factual truth doesn’t help that cause, it only hurts it.
Litany
@zhena gogolia: Am I supposed to take this article seriously? Head-to-head polls in 2016 showed Sanders beating Trump, and they show the same today. This argument about “opposition research” has been tried time and again, mostly by people who want to run the same type of candidate and pretend THIS time will be different. But all these stories which supposedly would have sunk Sanders are already all over corporate media, as well as many false smears from the right (Stalinist wannabe dictator) and the center (traitorous Russian stooge). He’s a strong candidate because he’s spoken out with a clear voice about the War on Drugs, US imperialism, healthcare, education, and poverty in America for his entire career. If we accept that these inscrutable scandals which horrify the nation’s pundit elite can sink a candidate Trump should have never won higher office, and yet here he is. Have you learned nothing from the last election?
I agree that it’s stupid that people voted third party, but in 2008 25% of Hillary primary voters stayed home or voted for McCain. Bernie primary voters decided not to vote or defected to Trump or Stein in much smaller numbers, which is even more impressive when you remember that many of them were non-traditional Democrats who would not have voted for a normal D no matter what took place in the primary.
I told people in 2016 that the moment was ripe for a resurgent left wing but that voters would prefer a sincere right-wing populist to a disingenuous left-wing technocrat; I was called hysterical, unhinged, etc etc. Insert your favorite TBogg hippie-punching screed here. Once the die was cast I did my time in the trenches for Hillary: making calls, knocking on doors, voting for her in the general.
I wasn’t surprised that Hillary lost the general election, but I WAS surprised at how little everyone learned from that instructive lesson. I take the people who still think that a triangulated campaign of appeasement towards the capitalist class is a winning strategy about as seriously as I take the people who think that THIS time war in the Middle East will go differently. Both groups have fundamentally failed to learn from history; they have spun self-serving narratives of lies and half-truths to excuse their complete humiliation in the political sphere and thus justify further failures. Hillary was supposed to be the best possible candidate; we were told she was the most qualified, the most intelligent, the most electable, and the most prepared for the weighty responsibilities of the office. She clinched the nomination against Sanders, then proceeded to eat shit against a racist, senile reality TV star who had never held public office in his life. The fact that the same people who cheered on her candidacy in the primary still have the guts to show their face on national TV and warn the left about the electoral dangers of flying to close to the sun is laughable.
UncleEbeneezer
@Nicole: Very well said. Thank you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Litany: pro tip, nobody’s reading your shit
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: okay, STILL hear? I want to be sure before I pose my question.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Okay, that’s kind of funny.
I got to your comment right after reading approximately one line of that person’s comment and thinking “nope, not gonna read that one!”
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Still!
Cheers,
Scott.
zhena gogolia
@UncleEbeneezer:
I agree.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
When you continue to cite debunked “facts,” people stop talking to you.
This doesn’t mean that you “won.” It means that we’re ignoring you going forward because we know it’s pointless to try and have a discussion with someone who keeps repeating falsehoods and half-truths as though they were gospel.
Good day.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Okay, great. I am trying to figure out something related to searching Balloon Juice comments in Flipboard, and I was going to download the app and experiment.
But then it occurred to me that you are often able to find old Bj comments that others aren’t, so I wondered if maybe you already use Flipboard and might be able to save me the trouble.
Just checking in before I reinvent the wheel.
Another Scott
@Mnemosyne: I haven’t read the piece closely, but the reasons why people haven’t voted didn’t jump out at me (if it’s there).
The Brennan Center is probably the go-to place for information on voter suppression.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: I’ve never used Flipboard.
I either use Google like so:
if I’m looking for a comment mentioning Captain Kangaroo from January 2012.
That actually returns 5 hits, but the oldest is from 2017…
If I know the timeframe for an old post or comment, then I’ll go to the Wayback Machine (archive.org) and look around there. But I don’t know of a way to do a text search there, so I just pick captures near or after the time I’m interested in.
I have also used the site search here a couple of times, but given the state of the dB issues, I haven’t wanted to break the blog until the issues are resolved.
HTH a little.
Cheers,
Scott.
Mnemosyne
@Another Scott:
Yep, the Brennan Center has been very clear since 2016 that Trump “won” by strategically suppressing the vote in selected states.
I was just curious about that specific poll, but I’m too lazy to actually dig into it myself.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Thanks. Yeah, I do the google searches, too. But you and Steep both seem to have better Google Fu than I have!
Litany
@Mnemosyne: Which facts particularly? I’ve picked out two claims that I think are particularly contentious in democratic establishment circles, but if there are any others you have problems with I can show sources.
I could also throw this back at your side: during 2016 I was told over and over again that Hillary would win against Trump in a landslide, that voters could never sink to electing a racist, senile celebrity to the highest office as if Reagan never happened, that Hillary’s weaknesses as a candidate didn’t exist and that even asserting otherwise was sexist. All lies.
Sanders base majority black and brown, Sanders second most popular candidate with minorities behind Biden: https://www.vox.com/2019/3/7/18216899/bernie-sanders-bro-base-polling-2020-president
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/sanders-shakes-staff-campaign-enters-new-phase-n1054821
Clinton voters going to McCain at a rate of 1 in 4:
https://sites.duke.edu/hillygus/files/2014/06/hendersonhillygustompsonPOQ.pdf
Ruckus
@John Cole:
Agreed.
Gotta like someone who speaks their mind and is right.
Ruckus
@debbie:
There are ringtone makers, programs you can get, some for a small price, that will take pretty much any sound and turn it into a ringtone for your phone. If you have an iPhone use the App Store icon, you will find plenty. I’d bet there is a way/place to do this with an Android phone as well.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
I was pretty sure this was it in a nutshell. However it seems that he ordered the killing of the Iranian so there must have been some evidence that he heard that allowed him to overcome his chickenshit persona. As well as pardoning the military criminals that he has. Something is slipping me thinks. It could be dementia, it could be rage, it could be he’s being egged on by the assholes he’s surrounded himself with…..
Felanius Kootea
@germy: Is he trying to reset her body clock maybe? I use blue blocking glasses at night and a full spectrum light early morning in winter but I know other usage times are appropriate for night-time shift workers, people with jetlag, etc. There may be a reason for the seemingly weird timing – maybe she should speak to a second doctor to be sure.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
From page 9 of your link, which is the same page that includes the table that has the “25%” number on it:
And that “25%” is not 25 percent of everyone who said they voted for Hillary. It’s 25 percent of the 30 percent cited (read the table header more carefully next time).
Please go back and study percentages to correctly understand why 25 percent of 30 percent is not the same as 25 percent of 100 percent.
And this will be my last response, because life is too short for me to have to go through each of these links one by one to show how you are misrepresenting them. I do not have the time or the patience when I already know that you’re going to deny any evidence I provide you anyway. Good night.
Litany
@Mnemosyne: Respectfully, you’re the one who has misread the study. I’ve read the header (as well as the rest of the article) and the results don’t establish what you want them to! The 30% refers to all surveyed voters who voted in a Democratic primary. This group is selected for because the analysis addresses non-primary voters and Republican voters. Of those 30%, half (or 15% of the total) were Hillary voters in the primary, and of those Hillary voters one in four (or 25%) defected to McCain in the general. You can see this is the case later in the article on page 21, when the authors conclude that “As it turns out, a large majority of Clinton’s primary voters (71 percent) cast their ballots for Obama in the general election.”
The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/) agrees with my interpretation of the data, writing that “Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election. An analysis of a different 2008 survey by the political scientists Michael Henderson, Sunshine Hillygus and Trevor Thompson produced a similar estimate: 25 percent.” The article they cite for the 25% is… surprise surprise, the exact same article I sourced the claim from!
I expect more breathtaking analysis of how all my claims are wrong, but as you wrote earlier it’s not worth my time to rebut.
StringOnAStick
@germy: All of that is exactly opposite to everything I’ve read on that topuc, and I’ve read multiple sources. The blue blocker glasses are used after sundown and the SaD light first thing or at mid morning. It sounds like the doctor has read about these things but remember s them exactly backwards. This I do is available online.
Litany
@Mnemosyne: I’m curious why you thought that Hillary voters lined up for Obama with such discipline: do you remember 2008? Hillary surrogates shared racist imagery implying Obama was Muslim. Hillary herself justified staying in until the bitter end by implying Obama might be killed. It was a clusterf*ck of epic proportions.
I WILL say that my claim on minority Sanders voters was poorly worded and thus incorrect. It’s more accurate to say that the average minority voter is more likely to support Sanders than the average white voter, rather than that his base being majority black and brown (which given the demographics of the Democratic Party is almost impossible for any nationally viable candidate). That said, he has the second most diverse base in the election after Biden with Warren and Pete trailing faaar behind.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
Respectfully, the WaPo article you just linked to says that voters who switched from Sanders to Trump cost Hillary the election, which seems pretty different from what you guys love to claim with the “25 percent” number:
But, hey, as long as you’re now willing to admit that Sanders cost Hillary the election in 3 states because Sanders voters switched to Trump, I’ll cede you the 25 percent Hillary to McCain voters who didn’t actually make a difference in the 2008 election because enough Hillary voters did switch to give Obama the victory. Because it’s not the actual percentage that matters, it’s the effect that those switchers had on the final election.
I’m glad we had this little talk.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
Again, you may want to re-read your own WaPo link, since it specifically says that the Sanders-Trump voters made their switch based on race.
And again: which vote-switchers flipped the election to the Republicans, and which ones had a null effect? I realize that you would rather argue percentages than outcomes, but outcomes are the base of the argument.
Your own article seems to indicate very clearly that, yes, voters who switched from Sanders to Trump gave Trump his victory. The voters who switched from Clinton to McCain did NOT have the same effect.
So, congratulations. You have proven that disgruntled Sanders voters handed Trump his victory. I hope you guys are proud of yourselves.
Litany
Litany
@Mnemosyne:
You’ve moved the goalposts, but since you’ve already conceded that your first critique of what I wrote was basically bullshit I’ll allow it.
Moving onto the next one! The Post does NOT agree with your conclusions. They write “In short, it may be hard to know exactly how many Sanders-Trump voters there were, or whether they really cost Clinton the election. But it doesn’t appear that many of them were predisposed to support Clinton in the first place.” A political scientist who studied this exact question came to a similar conclusion with this chart, indicating that over half Sanders-Trump voters were independents or even Republicans.
You write that I “would rather argue percentages than outcomes, but outcomes are the base of the argument.” My objection is that outcomes have tons of variables, whereas the percentage of jilted voters have relatively few. Obama was a uniquely strong candidate and Hillary was a uniquely weak one; because of their different profiles and campaigns, more factors are at play than the extent to which their primary opponents brought along voters. If Hillary had won independents by even half the margins Obama did, unhappy Sanders voters wouldn’t have mattered.
Like I said earlier and like the data suggests, past behavior indicates that most of these Sanders voters wouldn’t have voted Hillary even if Bernie never ran. The meaningful fact here (for me) is that Bernie voters were almost twice as likely to vote for their preferred candidate’s fellow party member than Hillary voters, despite Bernie voters in 2016 identifying as Democrats at faaaar lower rates than Hillary voters in 2008. This is actually a great argument for Sanders’s strength: his ability to attract voters who don’t typically go Democrat. if Sanders held onto his primary voters at a typical rate in the general, Hillary voters would have to defect from him at pretty high rates in order to throw away the election. As Jeff Stein puts it:
“I’ve seen some people who are using your new finding to trumpet that “Bernie Would Have Won,” because the number of Bernie-Trump voters is greater than the margin of difference between Clinton and Trump. And then there are others who say that this poll proves that Bernie voters cost Hillary the election, because his supporters stubbornly flipped to Trump in the end. And it seems like for one claim to be correct, so does the other one.”
I basically agree with that assessment, with a caveat that lots of factors play into an election’s outcome. 12% is pretty low in the broader history of party defection rates. Candidates should and do win elections despite much bigger betrayals from primary voters, and I’m not sure why you’re holding Sanders voters (who held the party line at record high rates) responsible for Hillary’s losing strategy. I AM glad that you’ve come around to team #Berniewouldhavewon though, unless you’re prepared to admit that Hillary primary voters would have abandoned Sanders at significantly higher rates than Sanders voters abandoned her.
But honestly, I’m not interested in re-litigating 2016. Hillary won the primary, partially because of deep relationships to party elite and media but mostly because Sanders never found a way to overcome her overwhelming name recognition advantage and aura of inevitability. He didn’t run a campaign that spoke to the concerns of Democratic primary voters, and while there might have been some ratf*cking on the periphery he obviously lost fair and square. But Sanders built off of his past failure and is obviously doing a better job of it in this race, and when you look at the rest of the field AND past history I think it’s clear that he’s the best choice to defeat Trump in 2020.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
EXCEPT … Bernie Sanders would also have lost to Trump, probably by an even larger margin, because those Sanders-to-Trump voters didn’t have any actual loyalty to Sanders or to the Democratic Party. They voted their racism — as shown in the article you provided — and would have voted for Trump anyway, especially once they saw Trump’s anti-Bernie ads.
It does kind of crack me up that you guys are 100 percent convinced that Trump would not have used the same anti-Semitic attacks he used on Hillary against Sanders. The man was running an openly white supremacist, anti-Semitic campaign, and you think that he would have politely refrained from anti-Semitic attacks on the first Jewish candidate? Sure, Jan. ?
Litany
@Mnemosyne: I’m sorry, but that doesn’t follow at all. The same analysis which showed 25% of Hillary voters switching to McCain also shows a full 10% of Obama primary voters ultimately voting McCain. That happens to insurgent candidates: they bring in undecided voters who wind up having second thoughts or may have only joined the primary to vote tactically for the weaker candidate (not as many open primaries in the US, so more of a moot point here). That 12% of voters who switched in the general are only a small part of Bernie’s support, and the population of primary voters aren’t even a representative sample of actual voters (as they tend to be more politically engaged). Most importantly, the evidence also does not show that these voters were “voting their racism.” More likely to be racist? Sure, that seems to be the case. But correlation isn’t causation here, and you’re making some leaps to arrive at this conclusion. These voters aren’t caricatures in Klan robes: they have other concerns and priorities, and at least some of them could be persuaded to vote for Sanders on the merit of other policies like M4A.
It’s also worth pointing out that Bernie’s success with minority voters in 2020 would be impossible if his core base was as racist as you claim. Bernie voters consistently polled as *less* likely to hold racist attitudes than Hillary supporters (source). Even in the states where Sanders decisively lost with minority voters he still retained a high approval rating, indicating that primary voters were voting for Hillary rather than against Bernie. I think a lot of this comes down to electability: most political scientists agree that minority voters have more to lose than white people in American elections, and tend to be risk-averse as a result. Even in 2008 Hillary won with black voters right up til the Iowa caucus, where Obama silenced his doubters by demonstrating he could appeal to white voters even when his opponent employed the usual dogwhistles.
None of this is to imply anything stupid like “minority voters actually preferred Sanders but just thought he would lose,” but I know that for my family at least Hillary’s supposed electability was a huge part of her appeal. The fact that she lost so badly despite her alleged inevitability *has* changed perceptions outside of the Wonkette/Proud Democrat bubble, and I think there’s a growing awareness this time around that the old rules may no longer apply when someone like Trump can win the White House.
Litany
@Mnemosyne: I know Trump would have run an anti-Semitic campaign against Bernie in 2016 just like he actually WILL run it against him in 2020, and I trust Bernie to handle it. He can actually make the class warfare case which Hillary never could, and I think that does a lot to mitigate the dangers of this attack. Hillary’s “Donald gives a bad name to billionaires” isn’t a winning line, but “billionaires shouldn’t exist” is.
Also, since when do centrist liberals do this sort of thing? By this logic, shouldn’t we all just elect straight, Christian, white men with 1.5 children and .5 dogs all the way down ticket since they’re the most electable? Unless you were actually warning Kamala Harris fans that her race and gender made her candidacy impossible and urging them to unify behind Biden or Bloomberg I’m going to hazard a guess this critique is made in bad faith.
Chris Johnson
@Litany:
I get all that, more than most people around here, but YOU have to take into account the truly intense voter disenfranchisement, the Russian meddling, the full-on informational war and total election subversion without which Trump would NOT have seized the electoral college.
In many ways Clinton was who you rail against, but history has validated her Russia-hawkishness more than I would have believed possible, and to say she ‘ate shit’ is like pretending it was a real election. It wasn’t. You’re partly correct but don’t fucking ever come around acting like ‘the American people voted for Trump’, because it took an astronomical amount of cheating and force to even have the luxury to pretend that.
Just because there were many things not good about Clinton doesn’t mean the election wasn’t STOLEN. The only defense against cheating of that magnitude is the same as the defense against gerrymandering: total overwhelming popular blowout. Few would be capable of that (Sanders certainly wouldn’t have been capable of it) and Clinton was not capable of that kind of overwhelming blowout win against Trump and a full-scale hostile war against our electoral systems.
Mnemosyne
@Litany:
Oh, sweetheart. Your naïveté is adorable. It really is. I almost hate to disabuse you.
People who are racist and anti-Semitic care MORE about that than they do about class struggle. They will happily cripple themselves rather than have non-whites or Jewish people be their equals.
Sanders never would have won the general election, because he would have been blabbing about class and money and Trump would have been saying that it’s just like a Jew to always be talking about money, har-har. Sanders would have talked about raising taxes and Trump would have highlighted that without needing to comment further about what anti-Semites think about a Jewish man taking their money.
I mean, did you sleep through the actual general election in 2008? Did you miss all of the race-baiting and anti-Semitism? Or did you just assume that your candidate is so pure and so saintly that Trump wouldn’t have dared attack him?
Archon
@Mnemosyne:
The “class warfare” political argument in America disintegrates every time it goes up against somebody making an implicit or explicit racial argument.
It’s bewildering to me that AFTER Trump leftists think it’s different this time.