Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

Glad to see john eastman going through some things.

The choice is between normal and crazy.

This country desperately needs a functioning Fourth Estate.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Bark louder, little dog.

We still have time to mess this up!

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Let’s show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

No Justins, No Peace

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

The Supreme Court is corrupt. Democrats must win in November and force court reform.

Can we lighten up on the doomsday scenarios?

Not all heroes wear capes.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Consistently wrong since 2002

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2020 / Monday Morning Open Thread: Gonna Be Another Long Week

Monday Morning Open Thread: Gonna Be Another Long Week

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Something about those faces… the bright-eyed curiosity on the left, the blissful superiority on the right…

Elsewhere…


Iowa caucus-goers want a candidate who’ll offer them a bag of magic beans. But they must be artisanal, free-range, responsibly-sourced magic beans!

Think positively:

Mandatory Bolton content:

Reader Interactions

188Comments

  5. 5.

    JPL

    If Bolton wanted to, he could go on the Today show this morning. There is nothing and no one to stop him. Since he’s only interested in book sales, he probably won’t though. Rumor has it that the repubs want to put a restraining order on him, to prevent his free speech.

  8. 8.

    glory b

    @Chyron HR: I have seen a VERYsmall number of stories that followed African American reps through their neighborhoods. Everyone they speak to mentions impeachment first and foremost.

    Kasie Hunt of msnbc said she spoke to people during her maternity leave, and they’re not interested, they want to talk about kitchen table issues. Maybe these folks need to go where those issues are more important every now and again, just to see what the folks on the other side of the racial divide think.

  9. 9.

    MagdaInBlack

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    My parents had a little log cabin north of Emo, Ontario. Occasionally a bat would find its way inside; my father would turn off all the lights, open the door and out it would go ?

    All bats are cool.

  12. 12.

    Baud

    Iowa caucus-goers want a candidate who’ll offer them a bag of magic beans. 

    Iowa caucus-growers want what most white Democrats want: progressive outcomes without making their white majority-Republican social network uncomfortable.

  15. 15.

    Kay

    Less engaged voters don’t pay attention to impeachment, but they also don’t pay attention to anything else going on in DC- they’re not that engaged. If they were engaged in “kitchen table” issues (or anything else) people wouldn’t have to launch billion dollar advertising campaigns to get their attention.

  16. 16.

    Patricia Kayden

    @JPL: 
    Republicans don’t have to do anything in regard to Bolton because he refuses to do the right thing and speak out. So what happens if the White House kills his book based on “Executive privilege” claims? I suppose he’ll just continue to be silent about relevant information which could put pressure on some Republican Senators to convict Trump. Sigh.

  18. 18.

    Kay

    These books are going to be the death of us. They’re an absolute racket. We paid John Bolton to do a job and that job includes responding to lawful inquiries about what happened on the job during his workdays. Instead of delivering the services we already paid for him, he is now going to sell us that over again, in his capacity as an author. The books are yet another racket, and that includes the journalist books. They’re holding back information and then repackaging it and selling it under their own brand, and that’s ALL they’re doing. They’re selling you the same service twice.

  19. 19.

    satby

    @Betty Cracker: one of my favorite things to do on an evening in Michigan: sitting on my covered deck and watching the air show, first the swallows and later the bats. With the deer showing up at dusk to graze at the far end of my acre lot. Very peaceful.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    The problem is Republican judges.  Dems can’t have confidence in the court system to enforce their lawful subpoenas.

  22. 22.

    Kay

    @germy:

    I love the “tell all” books by currently employed reporters. Didn’t we already pay them once for this reporting? They only gave us half and then repackaged the second part under their own brand instead of the newspapers? They ripped off the first set of readers in order to keep the best stuff for their personal, premium subscribers.

    Racket.

  24. 24.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Betty Cracker:

    I live in a 3rd floor condo facing an inner greenspace with lots of trees. Now and then, (very) late at night, when Im sitting on the balcony, I will see a few flit past. Not many bugs for them in our insecticide soaked northwest suburbs.

  27. 27.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    They’re all operating under the assumption that the standards go back up when Trump leaves office, but that isn’t how standards work. You can’t pick and choose when it’s convenient to have them. We’re already seeing this- Bloomberg is running a news organization that covers politics while running for President. It’s a fucking joke.

    The standards will have to be actively and painfully raised, probably through legislation and rule-writing. The “norms”won’t magically reappear. That’s what “norm” means- it’s a voluntary standard. Once it’s no longer followed that’s it- it’s over.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    Agree.  We’ll need to figure out how to enact legislative standards and then how to enforce them effectively.

  30. 30.

    debbie

    NPR just reported that an unnamed Republican Senator scheduled to be interviewed this morning has postponed the interview because he needs more time to evaluate the Bolton leak.

  33. 33.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: I can identify a number of bats when they are hanging on the ceilings of caves. When they are flying? Fuhgeddaboudit. Like you, the best I can do is estimate their size and make an under educated guess about the species.

  34. 34.

    gene108

    I try to remind people of all the winning we have been doing, since 2017, but people still feel Trump is unbeatable.

    A lot of that is from how the media only runs stories about Trump’s unshakable support among Republicans, instead of mad as hell Democrats, and even Republicans, who are now voting for Democrats, because of Trump’s corruption.

  36. 36.

    Baud

    @gene108:

    I agree. The amount of pessimism I see in real life is mind boggling.  Victory is not a sure thing, but we’re in a good position.  Maybe it’s a protective mechanism.

  38. 38.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Democratic primary voters should vote out of optimism, not out of fear.

    I”m optimistic Wilmer would loses a minimum of 45 states.

  40. 40.

    Kay

    Less engaged voters are the voters who respond to media themes about “clouds” and “questions”. They don’t approach this like engaged voters. They’re not picking and choosing policy- they’re picking and choosing general themes, things like “trustworthy” or “strong”. Trump knows this which is why he attacks Biden not on policy but on “sleepy Joe” or “corrupt Joe”. Media also know this which is why they spend 16 months on email management instead of health care. Email management isn’t a kitchen table issue. The general theme they were promoting there was “untrustworthy”.

    Democrats can do that too. It’s permitted.

  41. 41.

    Baud

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I get tired of us whipsawing between irrational optimism and dystopian peesimism.   There’s never a steady state.   I can’t blame voters for tuning us out sometimes.

  42. 42.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: Steitz’s optimism is from comparing apples and oranges. 2018 was a midterm; the party not holding the White House has an advantage in those. 2020 will be a presidential election with an incumbent President running for reelection; historically, the incumbent party has the advantage in these, other things being equal. The wins in off-year and midterm elections are absolutely not an indication that 2020 will go better than 2016.

  45. 45.

    rikyrah

    I see some of you who claim to be “allies” of Black people looking to transact away our humanity to win an election. Let me be clear: the humanity of Black people is not expendable.— Midwin Charles (@MidwinCharles) January 26, 2020

  46. 46.

    Baud

    @Matt McIrvin:

    We’ll see.  It’s not just that we won the midterms but did so with historically high turnout on both sides.

    We’ve also never had a president like Trump so I don’t know how much of a guide history is.

  47. 47.

    Kay

    @gene108:

    IMO, and this applies outside elections too, is the people who are the most doomsaying and pessimistic are often protecting themselves from being disappointed. They’re so crushed when they lose they insist they never win or will not or cannot. They’re not the most realistic- they’re the most invested in unrealistically good outcomes, hence the self protection.

  48. 48.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Trump to meet Israeli leaders as doubts over ‘peace plan’ grow

    Donald Trump is set to disclose details of his much-delayed Middle East “peace plan” during meetings with Israeli leaders in Washington on Monday, amid a rising global chorus of doubt about its timing and substance.

    The choreography between the US and Israel has been interpreted as a convenient distraction for both Trump, who faces an impeachment trial, and Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who faces three criminal corruption indictments and an uncertain election campaign.

    Netanyahu has sought to play up his cosy relationship with Trump domestically and to promote himself as uniquely able to extract concessions from the US.

    Now there’s a tell.

    Israeli media, citing unnamed Israeli officials, have reported that the measures would be extremely favourable to the country, allowing it to annex much of the Palestinian territories, including Jewish settlements, and all of contested Jerusalem. The Palestinians may be granted some form of self-rule but under tight restrictions.
    ………………………………
    The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, said last week that the Palestinian leadership had a “clear and unwavering position” to reject any Trump-led initiatives. Palestinians fear the plan is an attempt to bully or bribe them to relinquish long-held demands for a state and a resolution for Palestinian refugees. They anticipate the plan could be implemented by the US and Israel whether they agree to it or not.

    Peace in our time!

  49. 49.

    Kay

    Bolton doesn’t really contradict the GOP argument because the GOP argument is either – the offense didn’t matter or the offense mattered, but doesn’t rise to impeachment.

    They know he did all this and the smarter ones among them knew more would come out. They adopted a broad approach that allowed for additional revelations.

    If they change their approach on Bolton it will have nothing to do with facts or information, because their original position had nothing to do with facts or informations. It was tactical. Either it remains tactical or it changes to include facts and information, but “Bolton” and “what he wrote” aren’t the important part of that.

  50. 50.

    JPL

    @debbie: His tweets are easy to read  so I presume he is not the author.   It wouldn’t surprise me if they heavily sedated him, and he’s walking around like a zombie.

  54. 54.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Do you think the impeachment has been effective as a messaging vehicle? I hear some folks saying it will all be forgotten by November. I don’t think it will. It was important for the Democrats to do it regardless to assert that it’s not okay for a POTUS to extort foreign countries for domestic election assistance. But it has underscored the fact that Trump is focused on his own needs above the national interest too, even for folks who are only casually watching. At least, I hope so.

  55. 55.

    Kay

    When Democrats started fighting voter suppression they made an argument- the argument relied on voters and stats and what restrictive voting laws actually do. They won a bunch of them in court – they won over and over in courts, they had an absolutely stellar winning streak in courts, and they persuaded the D base, but they didn’t persuade any R politicians because voter restrictions were never based on facts anyway. 

    They have overwhelming evidence Trump is guilty of this. If Bolton changes anything he changes their political calculus. There is no factual calculus.

  56. 56.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: That’s a good point about turnout. I was listening to the Obama Bro podcast this weekend, and one of them noted that polls show interest in the election is off-the-charts high for this far out. Like you said, these aren’t normal times, so history may not be the best guide.

  57. 57.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think it has been effective in the sense that it adds to general sense voters have of Trump, and it’s negative. That’s what they respond to. NOT his base, but the vast group of people who don’t follow any of this closely, and by “any of this” I mean ANY, including “kitchen table issues”

    They all know this is what voters respond to! That’s the whole “clouds” bullshit they do. That’s the voters that is directed to. Those people who say to you “I just don’t LIKE him/her”. That’s 20%. It’s a huge group of people.

    But we aren’t going to get some definitive, dramatic “he’s guilty!” verdict with the strike of a gavel and then his support collapses. Democrats want that, but they aren’t going to get it. I think the only thing that would do that is an economic slide.

  58. 58.

    JPL

    When Pompeo accepted the NPR interview, apparently he thought he could control the situation.    I wonder when he found out about the book and it’s implication that Pompeo caved to Guiliana.

  59. 59.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    All those people who said impeachment was political? They were right. It’s not a process that will satisfy the D base. They’re acting as if it’s definitive with a clear set of rules and it just isn’t. I knew a lot of them would be disappointed when it started because they were looking at it as akin to a criminal trial and it’s just not. It sucks as a process. It’s a mushy mess. The only reason I backed it (and still do) is because if Pelosi hadn’t have done it impeachment would be dead letter. If it doesn’t apply here it doesn’t apply anywhere. But it still sucks as a process.

  60. 60.

    Princess

    I think the one big wild card in all of this is Trump himself. If McConnell were playing all of this on his own, he could probably shut it down easily. But Trump doesn’t just want to get away with it, he wants to be publicly vindicated and his enemies publicly crushed into the dust. It isn’t enough for the GOP senators to vote to acquit. They all have to say out loud that there was never any there, there. I see that trump is now calling Bolton a liar. That’s not a smart move and makes McConnell’s job harder.

  61. 61.

    MattF

    War, pestilence, etc. Personally, I need to see my dentist— a front tooth veneer came off yesterday. Advice— if a dentist offers to put a veneer on a tooth, don’t.

  62. 62.

    JPL

    @Princess: So are you saying that Adam Schiff hasn’t paid the price yet?      trump is a vindictive old man and will stop at nothing if someone hurts his feelings.

  63. 63.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Miami Will Be Underwater Soon. Its Drinking Water Could Will Go First It’s a long piece, about the many threats to Miami’s supply of drinking water:

    Hypothetically, most of the challenges climate change poses to Miami’s drinking water could be solved with money. Homes with septic tanks could be connected to the sewer infrastructure, a process Yoder estimates would cost from $2 billion to $3 billion. The soil at Superfund and other industrial sites could be dug out or better encased. Real-time monitors could be installed to warn of unexpected seepage. Still more advanced technology could be installed at water-treatment plants. But those projects would need funding. And there’s already a long line.
    …………………………………………..
    Asked if the state would help Miami-Dade protect its drinking water from climate change, Governor Rick Scott’s office directed questions to the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, which said in a statement that it “continues to work to protect the resiliency of our coastal ecosystems and shoreline communities.” But José Javier Rodríguez, a Democrat who represents Miami in Florida’s Republican-held senate, says his city is unlikely to get bailed out by the state. It’s not a question of believing in science. “The massive political and institutional resistance to taking action, in my view, is not largely ideological,” he says. “It’s not largely even political. It’s a question of being intimidated by the price tag.” As the low-tax state struggles against a revolt among school districts protesting meager budget increases and a $28 million prison funding deficit, there’s no appetite for funding the solutions to future crises, even when the future is almost here.
    …………………………….
    That leaves the cruelest lesson of climate adaptation: The costs of saving Miami will mostly fall on the people who live here—testing how much they’re willing to pay for the privilege, a sort of free-market Darwinism for the life of whole cities. “There will always be drinking water here,” says Virginia Walsh, a hydrogeologist with Yoder’s department. “It’s just a question of how much you want to pay for it.”

    Stoddard, the South Miami mayor, says the people who already have homes here will accept almost any price to stay. But those who would otherwise come to South Florida will start looking at the growing cost of protecting it—measured in water rates, in property taxes, in insurance premiums, in uncertain future home sales—and go elsewhere.

    “People will hang on with their fingernails to keep what they’ve got,” Stoddard says. “But who’s going to move here? And that’s what’s going to kill us.”

    Anna Michalak said, “Invariably, we discover that we’re not quite as clever as we thought.” which is just another way of saying, “They’re fucked.”

  64. 64.

    MattF

    @Kay: The fact that impeachment is political lays a trap— Republicans can argue ‘Trump is our guy, so we’ll support him’. The opposing argument is that Trump’s unfit, an asshole, a liar, a bully, and a career criminal, and therefore should be removed from office.

  65. 65.

    Baud

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Asked if the state would help Miami-Dade protect its drinking water from climate change, Governor Rick Scott’s office directed questions to the Florida Department of Environmental Protection,

    Old article?

  66. 66.

    Steeplejack

    Can someone bring me up to date on Dershowitz speaking at the impeachment trial? Is that on today? Last I heard, he could not speak because (a) he’s not an official member of the defense team and (b) there will be no witnesses (at least so far).

    ETA: Quick Google dive is ambiguous about whether Dershowitz is actually on the defense team.

  69. 69.

    JMG

    If Trump had gone to one of his golf courses on January 20, 2017 and just stayed there, doing nothing, saying nothing, he’d have a 60 percent approval rating and be cruising to re-election due to the perceptions of the economy. Even now he should be leading Democrats by 5-12 points if he wasn’t such a jackass. The people who say, “oh, it’s close and Trump could win” are right up to a point, but it shouldn’t be cause for pessimism. They should be thinking “it shouldn’t even be close, and he’s behind.”

  70. 70.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker:
    The only way I see impeachment making an impact on the election is if the evidence of corruption continues to fill the airwaves between now and Nov. If DEMs can make the case that the entire GOP is criminally corrupt it will hit the GOP across the board.

    I am fairly optimistic about the former. When it comes to the latter, we are at the mercy of the media. If they both sides it, it will probably get tuned out by much of the electorate.

  71. 71.

    Cheryl Rofer

    I hate to be that person, but yeah I’m gonna do it.

    The best information so far is that the new coronavirus jumped to humans from bats. So as adorable as you may think those two in the first tweet are, DON’T MESS WITH WILDLIFE.

    Also, I am suspicious of that 41 Strange account. I don’t retweet it and others like it. I’ll write a post on why in the next week or so. I’m running a little late because I had my own run-in with a norovirus over the weekend.

    Stay safe, y’all.

  72. 72.

    Baud

    If in fact Bernie’s poll numbers reflect progressive Warren supporters unifying under Bernie, it’ll be interesting to see how Buttigieg and Klobuchar supporters react.

  74. 74.

    Kay

    @MattF:

    I think impeachment is an unsatisfying process, and it you believe like I do that process is as much about the public as it is the litigants, it disappoints. Trials are shows, literally, and not in a bad way. The public needs to see some kind of accountability and transparency working, and trials provide that. I can live with a poor outcome. What I can’t live with is no process at all.

    We have an older Democrat on the county committee and I think he summed this up perfectly- prior to the impeachment he stood up at the meeting and said “I read about all these Trump crimes and nothing happens”. 

    They know they are entitled to a process. It’s just that THIS one is a mess and can be manipulated. But it’s all we had so I was for it. I still am for it, no matter the outcome. I think you had to let go of the outcome when you backed it- you’re either in or out at that point. There’s no point in second guessing.

  76. 76.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Baud: I saw reports that it came from snakes early on, but the last couple of days I’ve seen bats identified as the reservoir. They are reservoirs of other nasty diseases as well. Either way, my admonition holds.

  77. 77.

    Kay

    @MattF:

    I think we got away from a basic civic bedrock and we need to go back to it. The People are the injured party. That’s why it’s State of Ohio v Jones, or The People of California v Jones. We got away with it with this nonsensical thing where there was an idea the actual victim could say “no harm, no foul, case dismissed”. The offense is to the people, so only the people can acquit. The Trump Administration saying “no one cares about Ukraine” is this fucked up, wrong thinking. The People of the United States are the injured party.

  80. 80.

    MattF

    @Kay: I supported impeachment, if only to get the facts out and to force the Trumpies into the most uncomfortable positions possible. And also the ‘support Nancy’ imperative. The next step is to make use of these results.

  81. 81.

    Betty Cracker

    @Cheryl Rofer: I don’t follow 41 Strange, but it gets retweeted into my timeline a fair amount, and it seems to be all “look at this cute animal” and “check out this weird medieval painting.” Seems harmless from the sample I’ve seen.

  82. 82.

    Steeplejack

    I had a very nice outing yesterday. Braved the terrors of the Tysons Corner mall on a weekend with a friend to see Weathering with You (somewhat unsatisfying trailer here*) and have lunch at Seasons 52, a “new American” restaurant that was pretty good.

    The movie is visually stunning—highly recommended to see it on the big screen. But that’s not all it has going for it. There are a lot of threads woven in: climate change, of course, but also teenage love, family dynamics, homelessness in the big city. Even some cat humor! The occasional pop songs (featured in the trailer) didn’t do much for me, but the incidental music is excellent.

    ———

    * The trailer makes the movie seem more “amped up” than it is, and it layers those damn pop songs over parts of the movie where they don’t occur.

  83. 83.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    One critique I have of our side is that we tend to overemphasize tangible programs and policies at the expense of these meta-principles. The latter are treated as pedestrian and someone else’s responsibility.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    @MattF:

    Ukraine is not a party to this action. Ukraine didn’t have to be harmed at all- they’re the victim but victims aren’t parties.

    The offense is to the people of the United States.

  85. 85.

    montanareddog

    Naturally, there is much coverage of Kobe Bryant’s death but another legendary sportsman died, last Friday.

    Rob Rensenbrink was a member of the great “total football” Dutch team that reached, and lost, both the 1974 and 1978 World Cup Finals. He went off injured at half-time in the 1974 2-1 loss to West Germany in Munich.

    But he is more famous for the 1978 Final against Argentina in Buenos Aires where, with the score at 1-1, he hit the post in the last minute of injury time. If his shot had gone in, the Netherlands would have been world champions. But it didn’t, and Argentina scored twice in extra time to win.

    Rob Rensenbrink paal 1978

    RIP, Rob.

  87. 87.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t know anything about 41 Strange, but there was an article about the Russians using seemingly non-polical Twitter accounts to attract followers to whom they could later push propaganda.

  89. 89.

    Another Scott

    Good morning everyone.

    Excellent thread.  Kay’s on fire!

    I don’t know what impact Bolton’s book draft will hold this week, but it’s clear that the Teabaggers don’t care about facts and evidence.  What matters is public perception and votes.  The SoS trying to gaslight NPR and its listeners, and Donnie threatening NPR, may have more of an impact.  They really don’t want enraged Totebaggers rising up, do they??!

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  90. 90.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I’ve assumed Buttigieg and Klobuchar supporters would migrate to Biden if their first choices tap out, but who knows? Had to give my kiddo (Warren supporter) a pep talk yesterday because she’s worried Warren won’t still be viable by the time we get to vote in March, and she was fretting over the Bernie vs. Biden dilemma. Too soon, I said! Poor kid. It was probably a shitty parenting choice to encourage her to be interested in politics.

  91. 91.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    we tend to overemphasize tangible programs and policies at the expense of these meta-principles. The latter are treated as pedestrian and someone else’s responsibility.

    100% agree. Funnily enough I think the older generation of Democrats get this much better than younger people. It’s how Biden talks. Younger Democrats dismiss this as “vague” or “not policy” but it’s what people respond to.

  92. 92.

    Kay

    I’m having this running argument with my youngest because I feel the Bernistas are leading him astray, not on policy, which I’m fine with, but on reality. He vehemently argues that consistency is the most important attribute, so I asked him “well, then why would people bother to learn anything? Why would anyone bother to persuade them? If “consistency” is the gold standard well Barry Goldwater was pretty fucking consistent”

    This is just wrong headed. It’s bad thinking. I feel like it’s a clue to why they don’t reach out at all, although they are supposedly selling something to voters. But it’s dumb. It doesn’t make any sense. He knows it too- he goes storming off in a huff.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    It doesn’t look great but if past primaries are any indication, it is too soon to give up hope. Tell her there’s a whole blog full of people who shares her pain.

    If it ends up being Bernie vs. Trump, I’ll do my duty in November, but I call see myself withdrawing from political talk and focusing on other things in my life.

  94. 94.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    We’re in a time when people are obsessed with achieving status over others.  For young progressives, that takes the form of valuing consistently or authenticity or purity, whatever you want to call it, over other positive attributes. It’s their way of looking down on us, and thereby elevating their own status.

  95. 95.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Baud: I agree. The amount of pessimism I see in real life is mind boggling.

    It’s the press, it’s all disaster porn now. That’s why so many people are disengaged.  We finally got my father to stop watching broadcast news and he has been commenting on how  happier he is.

  96. 96.

    ChristianPinko

    @Baud: They want a realistic, down-to-Earth show that’s completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots.

  98. 98.

    Nelle

    @Kay: There weren’t many in my college Shakespeare class. We were trying to talk the professor out of one more exam. She said, ” I always give 8 exams in Shakespeare.”  Some idiot quoted Emerson to her, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”  Can you imagine my horror when I realized that had fallen out of my mouth??  But we didn’t have that exam.

    Ask your son, consistent for what purpose?  I love reliability but if it is stiff-necked and without considering evidence that may have come to light or changing conditions, it is like scream-singing “Tradition” at the sky, as in Fiddler.

    Betty, here is one old woman in Iowa who hasn’t committed yet but is leaning Warren.my hesitation is in wanting to follow the lead of the majority of the black voters and the TV machine is telling me that they are saying Biden.

  99. 99.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @Betty Cracker: My explanation is too complicated to fit into a comment. Sweet, innocuous, feel-good accounts build followership to support propaganda networks. I don’t know that that is what 41 Strange is doing, but I am suspicious of all accounts that are not clearly identified or that I don’t have personal knowledge of.

    I see it in my timeline a lot too. Other people are not as suspicious as I am.

  100. 100.

    Zzyzx

    @Baud: I usually hang out in the Phish fan world and it’s amazing how none of them are aware at all how Sanders is viewed in the rest of the party. They’re the Bernie people I like at least, frustrated but believing that they found someone who finally stands for their values, not the angry cranks.

  102. 102.

    gene108

    We have an older Democrat on the county committee and I think he summed this up perfectly- prior to the impeachment he stood up at the meeting and said “I read about all these Trump crimes and nothing happens”.

    This is what discourages my mom from time to time.

    Trump has no redeeming qualities as a human being, but gets away with so much anyway

  103. 103.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: Were other times really different though? Performative status elevation, I mean? The Sanders die-hards sound exactly like Naderites circa 2000 to me — THEIR candidate is authentic, consistent, rumpled suit, blah blah blah. The ability to recruit people into competing versions of “reality” via social media and information sources is different. Like you said, it amplifies the effect.

  105. 105.

    MattF

    @Kay: Ambiguity and uncertainty are painful. You have to observe events, think about them, and try to identify and name what’s happening. Putting a name to it is a big deal, it is difficult to do it well.

  107. 107.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Kay: I would think the Impeachment has been a pretty serious effort that way.  It sure seems like everyone who can be persuaded about Trump already has going by his polling numbers.

    You can read 50% of the country doesn’t care about the Impeachment because they don’t care or 50% don’t care about a fixed trial were the prosecution has been muzzled.

  109. 109.

    Zzyzx

    @Baud:

    I know some of those too but I don’t talk politics with them. There is a subset of people who are legitimately inspired for the first time by someone and they just assume that if they like him, and their friends like him, everyone else will too.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think the big difference nowadays is that it’s easier to avoid dealing with different groups of people because of the Internet and the plethora of media that segments viewership.

  111. 111.

    germy

    Why do the Democrats need a perfect, walk-on-water, candidate when the Republicans pulled a booger out of their nose, stuck a red cap on it, and called it President?— Sveta for Democracy ???? (@SlavicLady88) January 17, 2020

    Our standards are higher?

  112. 112.

    Matt McIrvin

    I think a lot of my own pessimism comes from the fact that so many of the people I’ve come to respect for non-political reasons have become these angry lefty purists who hate liberals and the Democratic Party with an almost Reaganite intensity, but from the left. I don’t see them pulling together as a solid coalition to beat Trump, any more than they did in 2016.

  113. 113.

    Zzyzx

    @Baud:

    exactly. And since 1% of the US population is 3 million people, it’s so easy to live in that world, see all of the people who agree with you, and not get that 99% of the population has different views. It’s a danger that I don’t know how to overcome.

  114. 114.

    bjacques

    The week’s just started. That’s plenty of time for more damning, lurid, memelicious evidence to emerge that’ll make the kangaroo acquittal even more of a farce than it is, and light up the Apple Watches and iPhones the GOP Senators aren’t supposed to have with them. Also, don’t underestimate Trump’s ability to blow whatever advantage he gets from acquittal. He can’t shut up and just let McConnell stage-manage it. He wants to be un-impeached, which is impossible.

     

    I don’t care if people get bored at what goes on inside the Senate chamber as long as they’re not bored by the evidence dumps happening outside it.

  116. 116.

    gvg

    @Kay: It can be a way to tell all when the editors and owners are not printing what they write. I don’t think that is the case now, but it can be.

  118. 118.

    Betty Cracker

    @zhena gogolia: Bingo. In fairness, an incumbent president has real advantages, particularly a corrupt one who openly uses domestic and foreign policy levers to rig the contest in his own favor. But 2016 really was an entire flock of black swans, so it’s a shame people are scarred for life by it (in an electoral decision-making sense), understandable though it is.

  119. 119.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    It’s upsetting. Him: “Warren used to be a Republican”. Me: “you’re converting people, correct? Consider her a success”- or, me, “Bernie isn’t a Democrat either”. I could say “well, you’ve only been a Democrat for 15 minutes so don’t start kicking people out” but it’s too mean so I don’t say it.

    I feel like he’s hanging around dumb people online. I really do.

  122. 122.

    Suzy

    @Kay: I agree. And this could be a good explanation of why many voters who like Trump like Sanders too. Because Sanders, like Trump, has based his campaign on anger at the “elite”. His campaign is basically “I’m mad. They’re all corrupt. And I’m your savior; I will revolutionize the place.”

  124. 124.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Kay: Sanders isn’t even all that consistent—witness his stances on guns and immigration, for instance, or his big legislative achievement being reforming the VA by adding “choice,” which the bros would excoriate as a horrifying neoliberal betrayal had it been done by anyone else.  His BRAND is consistency/authenticity and it comes from being ornery and rumpled.  Furthermore, AFAICT, “establishment” functions in exactly the same way “blow-dried” used to.  I’m finding it incredibly frustrating to watch.

  125. 125.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: That’s what I find so laughable about Wilmer’s supposed consistency:

    He’s not a DEM.
    He is a DEM.
    He’s not a DEM.
    He is a DEM.
    He’s not a DEM.
    He is a DEM.
    He’s not a DEM.
    He is a DEM.
    He’s not a DEM.
    He is a DEM.

    I guess one could say he consistently waffles.

  126. 126.

    bemused

    @Kay:

    I had to smile because he’s been raised by a parent that cuts to the chase with clear, common sense logic and he knows it.

  127. 127.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: It’s originally a horror/suspense short story enterprise.  Some one around here sees Russians everywhere and it’s getting a bit worrisome.

  129. 129.

    Kay

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    I think it’s ok to admit that a lot of people don’t pay attention. They don’t have to couch it in this careful “they WOULD care if you talked about THIS”. They pay attention to other things, and that’s fine. Just start there. Of the 50% who vote, 20% don’t pay that much attention. I’m fine with them having other interests. Political media, the industry, isn’t fine with it because that reflects on the relevancy of their work, but I’m fine with it.

    They proved this themselves in 2016. Was email server management a kitchen table issue? No, it was not. They spent 16 months on it. It was a “clouds- I don’t like the cut of her jib- vague unease” issue. That’s how we’ll use impeachment.

    If this were an actual complaint of political media, bored voters, then it should apply to the Trump campaign too. When they set out to win 2020 they didn’t focus on “kitchen table issues”. They set up an elaborate conspiracy to invent dirt on Joe Biden. Are people bored with Trump et al smearing Biden? Why not? Supposedly they are desperate for a policy discussion. Why would it only apply to Democrats?

  130. 130.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: Well, from S-Cats post you can ask him whether Bernie is consistent on immigration.  Or guns, or crime bills.

  132. 132.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Betty Cracker: A lot of people just want the world to work logically and if it doesn’t are prone to looking for explanations that hold together.  They can turn to candidates with simple easily stated views and solutions or they can decide that the Dems (always the Dems) never really wanted it* anyway.

    They can’t accept that doing things in a political system is hard, that issues are, in fact, complicated, and that there are always going to be trade offs.  I really first became aware of them in my first year of law school – people who wanted an answer to all the question and couldn’t accept that sometimes the answer is “it depends.”

    *Whatever it is varies from converstation to conversation.

  134. 134.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Suzy: I may be skewed because a person I’ve known for 20 years, the quintessence of hipsterism from before the term came back into use (beard, obscure band fandoms, etc.), is such a raving Bernie Bro on every level… but it sure seems like what he’s contemptuous of is not “elites” but “normies” or what used to be called “squares.”  He doesn’t like that uncool khaki-clad men and wine-sipping yoga moms often vote for Democrats.  So much of the Bernie subculture is like that:  vacuous and superficial yet with stylings of superiority and depth. I find it repellent.

  135. 135.

    cmorenc

    Agreed, John Bolton is a coward – a greedy coward with respect to the book v voluntarily testifying dynamic.

    NEVERTHELESS, if his book, when it does come out, does help undermine Trump’s electoral viability with a meaningful fraction of voters, well…he can turn out to be a useful slimebag after all, regardless of his cowardly, dishonorable, avaricious motives.  These motives also include a feral self-defensive recognition that Trump’s foreign policy is on self-destructive course that will eventually bring down whomever was on-board with it, and Bolton wants to finesse remaining viable with some future GOP administration while minimizing alienating the GOP base.

  136. 136.

    Kay

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m meeting him at the bd of elections this afternoon because he registered online and that makes me nervous. The deadline is drop dead. He doesn’t have any wiggle room. I would be crushed if a member of my household had his vote suppressed by bad faith or incompetent GOP work. I AM glad he’s paying attention and I completely get loving a candidate at his age. My oldest loved Al Gore and I don’t think he has ever recovered from that blatantly unjust shit show. I don’t think it’s a coincidence he lives in Denmark.  If your political life began with Bush v Gore, included the Iraq invasion, and culminated in Trump you’d be hopeless too.

  138. 138.

    OzarkHillbilly

    The email exchanges obtained by the Post, between Kelly and Pompeo press aide Katie Martin, were sent a day before the interview and clearly show Pompeo’s office was told he should expect questions on the issue.

    “Just wanted to touch base that we still intend to keep the interview to Iran tomorrow,” Martin stated. “Know you just got back from Tehran so we would like to stick to Iran as the topic as opposed to jumping around. Is that something we can agree to?”

    Kelly replied: “I am indeed just back from Tehran and plan to start there. Also Ukraine. And who knows what the news gods will serve up overnight. I never agree to take anything off the table.”

  139. 139.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: Actually, I am going to use your “He’s getting worse” argument.  I was convinced by your status quo versus change argument.

  142. 142.

    Immanentize

    @zhena gogolia: I know that, of course.  But please let’s not go all McCarthy without some high quality evidence. That turned out poorly the first time.

  143. 143.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: I hear you. My poor daughter cast her first vote four months after turning 18 in 2016 and is probably scarred for life too. That explains why she’s so jumpy and fearful this year. As a grizzled old Dem, I’m trying to gently convey that heartbreak and compromise are just part of the deal.

  145. 145.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Betty Cracker: I honestly don’t know what to tell my daughter about how politics works, because I think it might have fundamentally changed. We could already be in the regime where losing doesn’t mean heartbreak and compromise, it means you get rounded up into camps and shot.

  146. 146.

    Betty Cracker

    @Matt McIrvin: Well, I meant “losing” in the sense that your favorite doesn’t win the primary, but your general point about the stakes is a good one. I hope we’re still a ways off from camps and murder, but we’ve definitely skipped a few chapters ahead in the authoritarian playbook!

  148. 148.

    Marcopolo

    Good morning folks. This is a great thread. Lot’s of good thinking & analysis. Betty, I’m with your kid in regards to what happens if I need to choose someone other than Warren. I have to admit one of the issues (perhaps the most serious one) that makes me like Sanders less is just the relationship his campaign has with his supporters. I don’t like personality cults & I see some of that with Sanders and it worries me. Some of that is probably related to the number of folks new to politics that support him (they haven’t yet had the experience of being disappointed by a politician they trusted) but I also think it has to do with the whole identity of Sanders as “outside” the Democratic Party. Anyways that is probably the single biggest thing that bugs me about him—it reminds me so much of Trump & his supporters. And dog knows if you’ve followed Sanders for any length of time you are aware that the campaign hagiography of him is totally disconnected from the reality of who he is. It is just so much healthier to acknowledge that people running for office are human like the rest of us.

    Okay, now it is time for me to call my two R Senators. I’ve decided, in light of the Bolton news & the leaked Trump/Parnas/Fruman tape & Josh Hawley’s ridiculous “I’m drafting a motion to require the Biden’s testify” from two days ago that I’m just going to flat out tell Sen. Hawley he looks like a sycophantic idiot and it’s a bad look. I’m also recalling Roy Blunt said something dumb & sycophantic at some point over the weekend but I need to refresh my memory before I call his office.

    In the meantime, everyone have a great day.

  149. 149.

    zhena gogolia

    @Immanentize:

    I assume Cheryl has some evidence or she wouldn’t have said it, but I don’t know.

    I got a weird feeling from that account (unlike Paul Bronks) and have stayed away from it, but I have no evidence!

  153. 153.

    Bill Arnold

    @debbie:
    No, he (or somebody controlling his twitter account) is calling Bolton a liar. Here’s the text of the tweets on his account. (Calling Bolton a liar is a serious desperation move IMO.)

    I NEVER told John Bolton that the aid to Ukraine was tied to investigations into Democrats, including the Bidens. In fact, he never complained about this at the time of his very public termination. If John Bolton said this, it was only to sell a book. With that being said, the…
    …transcripts of my calls with President Zelensky are all the proof that is needed, in addition to the fact that President Zelensky & the Foreign Minister of Ukraine said there was no pressure and no problems. Additionally, I met with President Zelensky at the United Nations…
    …(Democrats said I never met) and released the military aid to Ukraine without any conditions or investigations – and far ahead of schedule. I also allowed Ukraine to purchase Javelin anti-tank missiles. My Administration has done far more than the previous Administration.

    Since the book has not been made public, there is still the possibility that Bolton will walk it back or that it is misinformation. It doesn’t seem likely to me but Bolton has skillz.

  154. 154.

    NotMax

    Not trying to derail thread with it but got the news yesterday that step-sister’s husband has been diagnosed with ALS. Doctors telling them to sell their three story brownstone and move to a wheelchair accessible domicile ASAP.

  158. 158.

    Just Chuck

    Here’s a thought: maybe the rest of the country should stop giving a shit about what anyone in Iowa wants or thinks.

  160. 160.

    Just Chuck

    @Kay:

    If “consistency” is the gold standard well Barry Goldwater was pretty fucking consistent”

    Not really.  Goldwater mellowed out quite a bit in his later years.

  161. 161.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: I am in Boston, y’know.  Three story brownstone sounds like the N.E. to me.  Is there anything I can do to help from here?  My Uncle died of ALS in Danbury, Conn. area.  He wasvtiedvin to all sorts of groups.

  162. 162.

    Bill Arnold

    @Betty Cracker:
    The 41strange twitter links to https://41strange.com/ which has a couple of bios and poking around for a minute or two the backgrounds are found elsewhere like wikipedia. If it’s a construct it took some effort.
    My non-suspicious take is that they are simply trying to boost spirits because they have a talent for it. My suspicious take is like Cheryl’s but it’s low probability for me ATM. (e.g., they also have the talent for crushing spirits and are waiting for the proper moment to strike.)
    For images that are sometimes nightmare fuel but often interesting, https://twitter.com/archillect
    (There are also some good microfiction accounts on twitter.)

  163. 163.

    glory b

    @Immanentize: Yep, sometimes you have to shake them out of it. My sister and I did the same for a few of the Bernie curious youngsters in my family.

    Don’t soothe their fee fees, let them know that they are wrong.

    Of course, African American family dynamics are different. I think there is more respect for the opinions of elders, but that’s just me (and millions of black folks, along with some (Hispanics).

  164. 164.

    NotMax

    @Immanentize

    Thanks. Chi chi neighborhood in Brooklyn. Not sure of their age except younger than I, so probably in their early sixties.

    They travel a lot and have a big trip to Paris set for this spring, which they fully intend to continue with.

  165. 165.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: they must dooo eeet!  Travel now!  Dance, make love, drink, take drugs.  It is a pernicious disease, but good life still is there to be had.  Seriously.  If I can, I will.  Let me know after Paris?

  166. 166.

    NotMax

    Just me or has raven/Raven/RAVEN been noticeably quiescent? Dude, your pointed punctuation amongst the often repetitious politiical hairshirting is missed.

  167. 167.

    Betty Cracker

    @NotMax: That’s terrible news.

    @Marcopolo: Facing a similar dilemma of coming up with new material for my daily calls to Senators Rubio and Scott. I don’t put much effort into it, tbh. I just call in hopes of doing my bit to create a ratio that has to be considered.

  169. 169.

    Immanentize

    @glory b:  From my time in the South, I would say there is just as much respect/ignoring elders views in all communities.  But there is certainly more public backtalk in the white community (as opposed to the Black and Hispanic communities I have been in).  This is a high quality ‘something’ that should not be underated.  Respect also sometimes means not missing an opportunity to be quiet.

  170. 170.

    Betty Cracker

    @Bill Arnold: I struggle with the question of how to address the scourge of Russian trolls (as a citizen, I mean). Specifically, I have a hard time coming up with a response that isn’t: “don’t be such gullible wank-monsters.”

  172. 172.

    Immanentize

    @NotMax: He has been missing.  And I miss him.  I am in occasional touch.  He is taking a break as the whole banning of a commenter for perhaps a suspicion gone astray pissed him off.

  174. 174.

    Immanentize

    @Betty Cracker: I agree.  It’s an odd thing, but I am not on social media much at all.  When the Immp was diagnosed, I made a conscious decision to not put it up on the Book of Faces because I didn’t want to manage the responses.

    My son, nerd boy, also does not do social media outside of YouTube nerd viddys and gaming with his buds. So there is less exposure for us? But it never is pulling me this way or that. At least I don’t THINK it is!

  176. 176.

    Aleta

    @NotMax: I’m very sorry to hear that. My good friend developed ALS.  Before that she was an activist professor who did early work on disability rights for children.

  177. 177.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Matt McIrvin: I honestly don’t know what to tell my daughter about how politics works, because I think it might have fundamentally changed. We could already be in the regime where losing doesn’t mean heartbreak and compromise, it means you get rounded up into camps and shot.
    * * * *

    1. During the administration of the ur-liberal Franklin Delano Roosevelt, my then-teenage aunt – and many other Americans of Japanese ancestry – were rounded up into camps.

    2. People of color living in this country have a long history of being shot on the streets by armed agents of government as well as by civilians.

    3. Native Americans have been on the receiving end of round-ups, displacements, shootings, forcible assimilations, etc., for more than 4 centuries.

    [NOTE: Items 1 through 3 are great shames to our country.]

    4. Politics works by showing up:  to vote; to volunteer; to bring hope to others.

    5. In any volunteer experience one meets people who are different from oneself:  in age, personality, skin color, family background, educational level, etc. It’s useful – and heartening – to notice the variety of people working for the same goal.

    6. Here are a couple of options for would-be volunteers (there are many more):  Get in touch with your local Democratic party – it may be easiest to find the state Dems online, and go from there – and/or find an organization whose aims you admire, and ask how you can help.

  178. 178.

    Ruckus

    @NotMax:

    Maximum damn here.

    Sorry to be a downer here but it is a very hard go for all concerned and pulling punches doesn’t help.

    I worked with a man who got ALS, Tony. It isn’t pretty. His son made it his life’s work to help his dad. And he managed to get him something resembling a life, for a bit. Tony lasted longer than most, wheelchair at first, but was bed ridden in not all that long, needed a computer to talk for him and had to be fed by tube. This is common to ALS. It’s an extremely tough road for all concerned.

  179. 179.

    Shalimar

    @Baud: I can’t speak for everyone else, but my pessimism is because of the polls.  I know the election outlook is good for next year.  I know it should be like 2018, with a few more points of movement towards Dem.  But damn it seemed like at least some people should have had enough of the massive incompetence and corruption but it doesn’t show up in the national polling at all.  He has been relatively steady his entire presidency, a few points down with each scandal, then gain them back a few weeks later.  Every single time.

    If so many suburban women have abandoned the raping racist piece if shit, why is he still polling 40+ instead of low to mid 30s?

  181. 181.

    Another Scott

    @Cheryl Rofer: +1

    It’s good to be cautious, especially about things that are “free” and play on our emotions.  Especially these days.

    (I don’t like The Dodo for that reason, also too.  YMMV.)

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  182. 182.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    EXACTLY!

    The major difference between the parties. Facts and tactics.

    Facts are reality and tactics are for people who want to overcome, overturn, ignore facts.

  183. 183.

    Ruckus

    @JPL: Well, trump’s feelings is all he has.

    Intellectual ability? Who are we kidding!

    Curiosity about the world? Again with the kidding!

    Facts? He can’t even make those up or lie about them realistically.

    History? There’s those fact things again.

    That actually sort of describes a vast majority of conservatives……

  184. 184.

    Baud

    @Shalimar:

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote after three years of the Depression. It’s hard to go below that mark.   Mondale and McGovern and Goldwater also got 40% of the vote in what were rout elections.

  185. 185.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:

    Isn’t this exactly why moscow has basically closed off the entire thing from the public, to control as much as possible what is seen, heard, and that actually happens?

    I mean it’s complete partisanship and fixing the outcome as much as he can because he knows exactly what trump is and has done. It’s exactly the opposite of what he is supposed to be doing.

  187. 187.

    No One You Know

    @Kay: Making money they don’t need from the change we do need, which they wouldn’t make possible.  I’m not surprised, but I am disgusted.

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