Trump’s first Super Bowl ad last night was a good piece of political advertising. It featured Alice Marie Johnson, a black woman who was granted clemency by Trump. Unlike most of Trump’s propaganda, it was a positive ad. The clear goal of the ad wasn’t to convince black voters to choose Trump (though maybe Trump would think it could do that), but to give prospective and committed Trump voters a piece of information to counter the clear fact that Trump is a racist, and a little bit of comfort if they’ve ever worried that they’re a racist because they support Trump. Watching it reinforced my feeling that Trump will be hard to beat, and that Democrats will have to bring their A game.
The good news, in my opinion, is that almost any Democrat who will do well in Iowa tonight can beat Trump. Every one of the top tier candidates has weaknesses that Trump and his team will try to attack. To entertain the notion that one or the other of them is somehow going to be more resistant to Trump’s attacks is to engage in dangerous self-deception. At this moment, we’re all wrapped up in the minutiae of the differences in policies, and the natural antagonism of one set of true believers set against the other. After the convention, Trump will shit on whoever we nominate, and his well-funded advertising team will pump out sophistry similar to what we saw last night. The good news is that any of the top polling candidates will have one fundamental message: Trump is a cancer and we must cut it out.
Though I have preferences, in the end, I’m fairly indifferent to who actually wins the nomination, for two reasons. First, any of them are hundreds of times better than Trump. Second, much of the challenge is structural. As always, we will need to register new voters and turn out registered voters. Each candidate will appeal to a different set of these voters; none of them will excite all of them. Don’t tell me that your preferred candidate is electable, explain to me how his or her organization will be the best to get your candidate elected. Specifically, tell me how they will use modern tools like social media to excite our base the way that Trump will excite his, using ads as well crafted as the one aired last night.
So, no matter what happens tonight, I think we’re as well positioned as we can be to take on a formidable, awful, dangerous liar. If your preferred candidate wins, look at the delegate counts and remember how much of this campaign is left. If the candidate you like the least wins, look at the delegate counts and consider all the opportunities your preferred candidate has to turn this thing around.
wvng
I agree completely. Martin Longman has a solid analysis of what needs to be done over at Progress Pond, but in the end it will be all about organization and not scaring away likely voters.
Matt
There’s a shorter name for this: lies. It provided them with *lies* to tell themselves.
The only apology I’d consider honest from a Trumpkin is one that’s included in their suicide note. Fuck these garbage people.
sanjeevs
I’ve seen troll farm operations up close in the Philippines and watched them in the U.K. and US.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are massive troll farms behind Sanders (and probably Yang).
Sanders is the Jeremy Corbyn of the US. I expect him to win the Democratic nomination then get crushed in the general as the troll farms turn against him.
Kay
@Matt:
If I’m confident of anything, I’m confident of this- they’re mean spirited assholes and they will no more be able to hide that fact for 9 months than they’ve successfully hid it for the last three years. It’s who they are. It’s like asking them to be a giraffe. They see the political risk in it! But they can’t not be assholes.
rikyrah
Kay
I’m a warren supporter but I’m also a realist and if Bernie wins the next couple I will give him and his supporters credit for what is already obviously true where I live- they’re the most enthusiastic and committed.
I may not like that but it is the truth. If they come out they proved something. I would apply that to any other candidate so I will apply it to Bernie. And it matters, as far as winning the general. Warren supporters are also very enthusiastic but they’re not canvassing here, and the Bernie people are. That counts.
schrodingers_cat
@sanjeevs: And is this the trial boomlet of the above mentioned troll farm?
sanjeevs
Sorry what do you mean?
Baud
@Kay:
I agree. In the end, politics is about winning.
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: He is the candidate of the white resentment on our side. His win will cement a message that I refused to believe even after Orange Concealer became President in 2016. That I don’t belong here anymore.
ETA: Or in less personal terms, the country of immigrants is currently no country for immigrants
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I’ll vote for him if he wins, but I’ll probably also step aside from politics for a good long while. I’m not interested in getting in anyone’s way.
Raoul Paste
This trump ad is a pure appeal to emotion, which can be very effective
If the Democrats base their ads upon reason instead of emotion they will lose
A Ghost To Most
@Kay:
I think Bernie would lose to Prez Mushmelon . Even Corporate Pete would be better.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Let him win the nomination first before we have dirge/celebratory dance. I am not willing to count my chickens before they hatch.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Kay: I’m in the same boat. What gives me hope about Sanders is that my daughter’s friends, mostly women, support him. I’ve never met a real life BernieBro – their boyfriends are all gentle hipster types. So I think the obnoxious BernieBro phenomenon is a bigger deal on Twitter than real life.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: Sure. We’ll see what happens.
OzarkHillbilly
Twitter is the home of obnoxious.
Butter Emails
@schrodingers_cat:
Bernie is our resentment candidate, but I think it’s generic resentment, not racially based. Bernie has decent support among Latinos and African Americans, particularly among the younger cohorts.
schrodingers_cat
@Butter Emails: Check his senate/congress voting record on immigration. He has been fairly dependable anti-immigrant vote. He has only moderated his stances somewhat since he started running for President.
kindness
I will vote for whom ever the Democratic party nominates. Having said that I do sincerely question the cred of certain nominees who spend more time tearing apart other Democrats than they do Trump.
Kay
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Honestly, there is an annoying Lefty scold…group in real life Bernistas, but they were like that before Bernie. I think of it as “self conscious”. They have a kind of coded way of speaking that is akin to conservatives. Smaller things are proxy for larger ideas. “NAFTA” doesn’t mean the specifics of that deal, it means “the gutting of the middle class”. I can learn the language but I don’t like people who speak in code. I sort of get a kick out of violating it. I then get a patronizing, patient explanation. Yuck. I know more about NAFTA than they do. Not “NAFTA”, but NAFTA. The real thing.
Dorothy A. Winsor
February 3 is also the anniversary of the Day the Music Died in 1959. Let’s hope that’s not a harbinger.
schrodingers_cat
Here is the liberal Jesus sounding not that different from the Orange Concealer in the WH in 2007 on Lou Dobbs.
He is explaining why he is against the immigration reform bill.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Why do they support him?
NotMax
@OzarkHillbilly
The land of the twee and the home of the knave.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@NotMax: I am so stealing this.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Kay: Back when I was going to meetups with DougJ, it seemed that the DFA members were the same way. I didn’t feel they knew a lot about the substance of issues, and what they did know was mostly from reading and parroting a limited set of sites/books. But they were always willing to knock on doors and go to demonstrations. So a mixed bag.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
IMHO, that’s a good question. There may be something useful to be learned in answering it.
Richard Guhl
The hard truth about the Democratic race for the nomination is that all the declarations about what they will do in terms of policy if they are elected is mostly hot air. Whatever the differences between Sanders and Biden will be erased, because the real deciders are Nancy Pelosi and Joe Manchin. Rep. Pelosi will determine what gets to the House floor. And Sen. Manchin would be the deciding vote in the Senate, assuming the Democrats capture that body.
What this race truly comes down to is temperament.
Which candidate is mostly likely to come across as definitely not Trump?
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: Gotta stick up for Sanders a little bit here: it’s not just he who has moderated his stance on immigration. Mainstream Democrats have evolved on that and a host of other issues as voter sentiment changed. There are 2007 clips of then-candidate Obama saying he opposes marriage equality.
Kay
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
It is a mixed bag and I don’t hate them. I do find them annoying though.
This to me was the perfect example. Ohio Democrats were doing this huge push to overturn an anti-union law by referendum. I was impressed with the campaign. Really good. They won too, so there ya go. Anyway, Obama campaign latched onto it in a smart way- they passed petitions to get a voting rights issue on as a referendum. Good fit! I would hand the clipboard to the labor people and say “they won’t be able to vote for your issue if they can’t vote”. Lefties decided to have huge screaming matches with me about why they weren’t allowed to take over the whole campaign and turn it into an Occupy Wall Street event. Because it’s not your event. That’s why. I get it! They want to make a bigger argument. No. It’s not yours to take over.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
Put simply, because he’s the most liberal and they are very liberal. Some of them also like Warren (I think my daughter might have landed there but she was on the fence last time we talked politics), but other than Bernie or Warren, the rest of the field is not liberal enough. Most of her friends went to the same state college as her – it’s considered the best four-year SUNY and is hard to get into. Most of them came from middle class or lower middle class families. They have relatively low paying jobs because their liberal arts degrees aren’t going to get them one of the few decent entry level jobs around here. They’re white, brown and black, some are gay and/or trans.
They are smart and some have picked Bernie because he has the clearest vision for the world they want to see. They’re in their twenties – some of them studied political science, they know a lot about politics, both practical and ideological. They know that Bernie (or Warren) won’t be able to get most of their programs enacted. But they also know if the candidate with the most liberal views wins, that’s one step to a better world when they’re 30 or 40 or whatever.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Sanders getting the nomination would be certainly ironic after the Republicans are all set to impeach Biden over their fake scandal.
I would also argue the Super Bowl commercial was more normal politics and postive because Trump was to distracted to get involved and turn into his usual vileness so the agency got to do their job.
O. Felix Culpa
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Regrettably, the phenomenon is real, although I can’t comment on comparative size. As the chair of a county party, I have to work with (or around) a claque of BernieBros. They are every bit as odious and unreasonable in real life as they are on Twitter.
ETA: I distinguish between BernieBros and Bernie supporters. We have some of the latter too, and they are positive people who like the policy goals he articulates (which I mostly do too) and will support the eventual Democratic nominee. I’m all for people working their heart out for their preferred candidate in the primary, who will then rally around the Party in the general election. That’s the way it should work.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Dorothy A. Winsor: And I really am curious. My then 21 year old, daughter was for Bernie in 2016, except she would get mad at me when I asked her (not as snark) why. And she really could not articulate any real concrete reasons.
rp
I disagree that that was an effective ad or that Trump will be hard to beat (with respect to his actual campaign; troll farms. voter suppression, and vote hacking are a different story). That ad might give some comfort to white racists, but is it going to motivate any voters?
I also disagree that Sanders can beat trump. I think he’d lose 45 states.
zhena gogolia
@sanjeevs:
FWIW, I didn’t understand that either. I thought you were basically agreeing with her.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: I paid close attention to the immigration issues and the Vt senator was one of the stanchest and most reliable anti-immigrant votes in the Senate. He was to the right of most Ds and in line with Chuck Grassley and Jeff Sessions. He has voted against the most minor relief for immigrants like recapturing unused GC quotas from one year to the next.
schrodingers_cat
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Peer pressure.
khead
Since we are talking SuperBowl….. I’m guessing the Venn diagram of “Folks who loved the flag humping pregame show” and “Folks who hated the halftime show” is one circle.
Elizabelle
Good morning. I put up long excerpts from the FTF NY Times article about Bernie’s “grudge” towards baseball moving the Brooklyn Dodgers, in the previous thread. It’s actually a very well written and informative article, and while “grudge” might be a perjorative word, “concern” or “despair” might work as well. (It’s comment 84.)
Basically, the article says what Kent said in shorthand, and it’s true that it started off with character quotes from a film Bernie appeared in.
Mainly, it proves why it’s so awful to have the “paper of record” behind a paywall, because those who don’t want to spend a click have to take others’ words on what’s in the FTF NY Times article.
Which was way more gentle than what Kent told you and, to my surprise, Steep got it right and wrong on his debunkification. [He responds a little further down the thread.]
If you are curious or have clicks to spare, it’s a very good article and an excellent framework (major vs. minor league) for Sanders to use as a parable.
Zinsky
Good post, mistermix – Party unity is essential in this presidential race. I have many friends and relatives in Iowa and they all agree with your thesis. They also say that Joe Biden is weakest of all the candidates and one-on-one, he looks confused, frail and old. My brother-in-law has met all of them in person and he says Biden just doesn’t have the mojo to last this campaign and make a strong showing. He says if the Dems nominate him – Trump wins. Period. Biden is nothing but a liability to the Party at this point, and needs to be politely shuffled off the stage, not to reappear until after November 2020. He is fine as an elder statesman of the party, but as a candidate, he is a fossilized joke who is going to get plowed under by Trump!
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Also find me a video of Senator Obama going on TV on a show hosted by some anti-LGBT talk show host on TV to trumpet his opposition to same sex marriage.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah, one of about a dozen reasons I don’t like the Iowa caucuses(or caucuses period) , people get to try to “persuade” other voters to their candidate.
Human nature has proven time and time again that letting the loudest voices in the room prevail is not a good idea. Personally I have anxiety AND hate crowds, and if I lived in Iowa would really have to force myself to show up for a caucus…
Steeplejack
@zhena gogolia:
I took it as slightly paranoid s_c hinting that sanjeevs, or at least that comment, was part of the troll onslaught.
PST
I’m not disagreeing that this is what the winning candidate will have to do. Not at all. But I hate that this is the future of politics on both sides.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: Is that your twitter handle?
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Zinsky: One of the problems with the field is that three candidates with good chances to win: Biden, Sanders and (don’t laugh I’m serious) Bloomberg are all 77/78 years old. Nine months of hard campaigning will not be kind to any of them. It’s a real problem.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Trump’s gonna Trump, and no amount of warm, fuzzy ads can eradicate the impression that he’s a self-centered, mean-spirited asshole because that’s who he is. I didn’t watch the pre-game Trump-Hannity interview yesterday, but from all accounts I’ve read this morning, it went down exactly as expected: Trump lied, bragged about himself and childishly trashed opponents.
I thought it was interesting that the Fox network people decided to bring Hannity out of the fever swamp and put him in front of a national audience like that. Hannity is a obsequious kook, and that obviously works for the elderly Fox News rage-bot audience, but I wonder if it was jarring to regular people?
Butter Emails
@schrodingers_cat:
You’re point is taken regarding Bernie. The guy has a serious case of white privilege and an inability to see issues through any lense other than economics.
The flip side is that Bernie has altered his positions on immigration over the last several years as he’s had to appeal nationally to voters. That switch reflects his current base of support and also those voters he is appealing to for support. In other words, he dropped the anti immigrant schtick precisely because it’s on balance toxic to Democratic voters.
schrodingers_cat
@Butter Emails: I don’t trust his conversion. YMMV.
He has made recent statements (in the run up to the midterms) where he agreed with Orange’s policy of the need for expansion of detention camps for asylum seekers.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@O. Felix Culpa:
Yes – when I worked in county party politics there were always a few cranks. They’re tough to work with and I really don’t miss that part of it. But I think the supporters, who are not cranks, sometimes get short shrift around here. And, obviously, I’m biased because my daughter’s friends, some of whom I am very close to for a variety of reasons, are the opposite of cranks.
schrodingers_cat
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: The followers are the icing on the cake. I don’t like the man, his policies and his finger wagging rhetoric.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Bernie has already had one hospitalization due to a heart attack…
Spanky
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Sounds like a pretty good summary. The “if” in the last sentence is the big catch though. The track record of the most liberal candidates through at least my lifetime is abysmal, Like Oh-fer. After a few cycles of the liberal candidates getting whipped I’ve been beaten into a more pragmatic stance. I don’t think your daughter and her friends have the luxury of living through more cycles of Republican leadership.
James E Powell
@Butter Emails:
The cohorts least likely to vote and least likely to impact the outcome in the five states that will decide the election.
Barbara
@Kay: Anybody who uses Occupy Wall Street as an example of how to do activism immediately loses my respect, because ultimately I care more about whether the change happens than how it happened and whether you got an opportunity to make sure everyone knows how you personally feel. OWS was such an incredibly wasted opportunity.
Betty Cracker
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Same. It also irritates me when “progressive” is used as an insult that basically means “BernieBro.” Many staunch Democrats who raise money, canvass, register voters, etc., consider themselves progressives, and the party cannot win without them.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I don’t trust him on immigration either. I think it would require him to stand up to the white working class that he covets so much, and I don’t think he has it in him to do that.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@James E Powell:
Don’t forget that black voters in Milwaukee, Philly and Detroit are just as important as the elusive Obama/Trump white man.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@schrodingers_cat:
You don’t like the junior Senator from Vermont? Really? I hadn’t noticed that in the 47 repetitive comments you make on every post that mentions him.
Baud
@James E Powell:
If Bernie is the nominee, the election will be about white suburbia. I don’t see who else swings in that scenario.
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
She’s entitled to express her views. If you want a Bernie free thread, say so in your post.
Elizabelle
I hope Elizabeth Warren wins the Iowa caucuses. I think she’s the strongest candidate, although Wall Street will line up against her like the villains in an Avengers movie.
Tonight will be interesting.
schrodingers_cat
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Good you noticed.
Baud
@Elizabelle: That would make me happy.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Baud:
I didn’t say that she wasn’t entitled to express her views. I noted that her expressions were repetitive and dull. It is a low-grade form of trolling to take my well-founded criticism and interpret it as a form of suppression. I realize that it’s pretty pointless to engage either you, her or a couple of others on this topic, but here we are.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Thank You.
Omnes Omnibus
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Making sure that Black voters in Milwaukee can vote will net more voters than having Bernie on the top of the ticket. IOW I think that my experience in Wisconsin tells me that Black voters are plenty motivated and want Trump gone.
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Your post are pretty lame too, but I don’t complain to Cole about it.
O. Felix Culpa
@Baud: Me too.
Betty Cracker
DELETED
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Baud:
Thanks for changing the subject and not addressing my initial point, another low grade troll behavior. Again, I did not say that she wasn’t entitled to express her views, as you stated.
You’re also in such a hurry to change the subject that you made an uncharacteristic (for you) grammatical error.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Hard to say. A lot depends on whether we control Congress. I also think AOC and the other Squad members could act as a political constraint in that area.
I’m not really selecting among the candidates based on immigration, but I also don’t think there’s any reason to have any special faith in Sanders on this topic.
schrodingers_cat
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Your initial point was that my critiques of the Vt senator are tiresome and repetitive. Perhaps to a die hard fan they may seem so. Your nth post of how the Vt senator is misunderstood is hardly the stuff of scintillating originality.
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Jesus. You are a whiny bitch. You criticized her for expressing her views and I criticized you for criticizing her. I’m not a troll because you are sensitive.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
I’d be shocked if his SOTU rant was not a regurgitation of interview with Hannity. He’s going to be extra cranky with Pelosi sitting behind him and I want to watch Pelosi breathing down his neck but I just don’t know if I can stomach it even if I mute him.
schrodingers_cat
To be considered a “good” Indian woman I was told to shut up and accept the judgment of my betters. And now to be a considered a “good” immigrant I need to be silent as well.
The more things change the more they remain the same.
Betty Cracker
@bemused: Yeah, I don’t think I can bear to watch it either. If Pelosi unveils an instant classic like the fuck-you clap, I’ll just have to catch that in a clip on Twitter.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@schrodingers_cat:
This comment shows how your worldview is so occupied by hatred for Sanders that it skews the way you read and think. My original post is not about how Sanders is misunderstood – it’s about how pretty much anyone (including Sanders) can beat Trump. That includes Pete, who has a lot of flaws. But you zero right in on Sanders. Second, I have said hundreds of times that I support Warren, but that goes right past you when you say I’m a “die hard fan”.
But, yes, I did indeed say that your comments are tiresome and repetitive, and if you look at this thread, res ipsa loquitur.
Elizabelle
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: I suggest changing “Probably Not” to “Possibly — you decide!”.
I also think people should dial it down here and stop crapping on the Democratic candidates. We have an opposition party and press who do that quite well without our helping it along.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Baud:
Another low grade troll maneuver, the gratuitous ad hominem. Going through the playbook today, I see.
I criticized her for expressing her views, repeatedly. I’m fine if she wants to say she doesn’t like Sanders, noted. Same with you, noted. Just saying it a dozen times in slightly different ways is not appealing.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Elizabelle: Ha! I’ve got a change brewing but it’s in a different direction.
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Calling me a troll doesn’t make it so. The fact is, you started this. You are responsible. You can apologize or you can continue to act righteous. I don’t really care.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Nobody is telling you to be silent.
FWIW, I am not a Bernie fan either. I have my own definition of “Democratic candidates” and it is not a suit that one puts on every four years.
jeffreyw
Raven didn’t kill himself.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Baud:
“You started it”, another playbook move. Actually, I made a comment to someone else and you felt obligated to respond, so some could argue that you stepped into it. And, you really do care, because you are constantly all over the comments, which is often a good thing.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
My husband, who likes and watches sports, says they shove Trump down our throats too much. He is everywhere, Donald Trump, 24/7. He says that would get old with even an appealing and interesting person, even, but it is WAY too much Trump.
He thinks that’s the error- that they won’t fucking leave us alone with this douchebag- they put him into everything.
Partly it’s because Trump also hired his grown children and son in law, so if it isn’t one Trump it’s another. Too much. Go away.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: To be fair, you do live under a bridge.
randy khan
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
This fascinates me. On one bundle of issues it’s certainly true. On other issues (gender- and race-related, mostly, but also gun control), he’s not. In practice, he and Warren probably are in about the same place all in all.
But, to his credit, Sanders has staked out the left end of the spectrum as his place, and maintained the perception that he’s there. Some of it is his doing, and some of it is other candidates (including Warren) not *wanting* to be perceived as being there, but it is as much about perception as the candidates’ actual views.
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
SC is a decent person. I do care in that sense.
Do you really think you’re improving your credibility with this whole troll playbook thing. It reminds me how Trump blames Dems for his own actions.
BTW, this comment is derived from p. 65 of the playbook.
Barbara
Wow, calling Baud a troll is . . . startling. For the record, I think sc’s comments were straightforward and gave the basis for her dislike, which is mostly specific to her status as an immigrant from India. Yes, I get that your point was not whether you liked Sanders but whether he could win. But whether we like him or dislike him a lot does factor into whether he can win. We are in no doubt of how you feel, MM, because of your own case of repetition, but in any event, after a series of comments you stepped in and said this:
Which to my way of interpreting things upped the hostility factor quite a bit and veered into ad hominem territory. I urge you to consider the feelings of those who actually sit in quite a different place from most of us commenting here about what they feel are the personal stakes for them in the 2020 presidential election.
ETA: I notice, for instance, that you made no effort to address sc’s concerns, which seem valid to me. Others in this same thread did try to do that.
randy khan
@Betty Cracker:
I assume that the choice of interviewer was negotiated by the interviewee.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
It’s social media, too, right? Donald Trump never shuts up. He weighs in on everything.
There’s a relentless to it, a demand, a neediness. He needs to take over the Super Bowl too? He couldn’t just let people watch it without making it about him? World affairs, celebrities, sports, they’re IN OUR FACE every minute of every day. They TAKE.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
MM has a history of this childish, immature behavior. I remember the whole English Royalty flap where he made a factual error, people pointed it out and he blew them off, and changed his nym to mock them. He couldn’t admit he made a mistake
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
I think some of us just need to scroll by some posts. It’s not good for our mental health. Unfortunately these posts tend to come during the hours when I’m awake, unlike most of the other ones. But that’s just the way it is.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
Ha, I’ve been having visions of a Pelosi clap at SOTU too. If only.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Thanks that means a lot to me.
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
p.s. I love you and SC.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
Look, the fact of the matter is you acted like a rude childish asshole to SC with that “47 repetitive comments” post. You should apologize. It came across as very passive aggressive
jeffreyw
opiejeanne
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: After this little flurry of comments, I think you can remove the “not” from your nym.
JPL
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Bernie’s going to release his medical records though in a few weeks.
Elizabelle
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Agreed. With both comments on the subject.
The Harry parentage and S. Cat comments were wrong and deserve a full apology and more reflective behavior.
JPL
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: omg you got to be kidding me. We are no longer in high school. Get over it
Barbara
Also, if anyone wants a non-fan take on Sanders’ prospects, Josh Marshall wrote a fairly cogent piece last week. Source
Ceci7
“I hadn’t noticed that in the 47 repetitive comments you make on every post that mentions him” is indeed telling someone they’re not welcome to speak. It’s out of line. Barbara’s comment captured everything I’d have said were I as articulate as she.
kindness
I’m not trying to divide any of us here but I do have a reasonable amount of BernieBro friends. Recently I asked several of them if they’d support the Democratic nominee if it were someone other than Bernie. The most common response was to not answer the question but attack the premise of Bernie’s nomination being ‘stolen’ again by the DNC (and other boogiemen). Honestly my gut feeling was about 1/2 would vote for the Democratic nominee and the other 1/2 will do a Jill Stein (who ever fills that role this time) protest vote again.
I was not impressed. Too many of them are way to wrapped up in how the Democratic Party is as evil as Republicans/Trump. For a ‘woke’ group of folk they were suprisingly blind, knee jerk reactionary and dumb. Kinda like Trump voters.
AxelFoley
You really believe he opposed marriage equality? Obama was on record as being for it before the 2008 election. When 2008 came up, he chose not to let the GOP make it a campaign issue by saying he was for civil unions. Of course, we know what happened when he got in office.
Bernie, on the other hand, doesn’t politic or change his views.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: I’m guessing Trump demanded Hannity. Quite sure the Fox executives would have preferred Chris Wallace or someone more palatable to the majority of viewers.
You could not have paid me to watch that interview.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: The ubiquity, the relentless clamor for center stage! That’s as much at the core of who Trump is as the bigoted demagoguery, so it would be fitting if all those horrid qualities combined to bring the whole bunch down — if he’s ultimately rejected in part because everyone is just sick and tired of the creep and his vapid hangers-on.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@schrodingers_cat: Please don’t be silent. I value your comments and your point of view. I would be sorry to lose that.
Betty Cracker
@AxelFoley: PBO described how he evolved on this issue in a famous interview that is easily Googlable. I assumed he was telling the truth, but maybe it was all a political front, as you suggest. Regardless, I am grateful to him for his role in making marriage equality a reality.
As for Sanders, who will almost certainly not get my primary vote, maybe he secretly agrees with 2020 Lou Dobbs despite a platform specifying that he would put a moratorium on deportations, expand DACA, welcome asylum seekers, reunite families, etc., etc. I think that’s unlikely though.
@Elizabelle: You’re probably right.
O. Felix Culpa
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: Seconded.
Brachiator
Damn. I am sorry I am late to this thread.
Trump will run on jobs, low taxes, a good economy, strong national security. I have not yet seen that the Democrats have a good answer for this. Instead, so far there is a lot of emphasis on how Trump is a bad man.
I absolutely agree that Trump is vile, but the Democrats also need to show that Trump’s “accomplishments” are a sham, smoke and mirrors.
The Democrats also need to try to pick off some Trump voters.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Barbara: There are many valid reasons to think Sanders is a bad candidate, I’m fine with people expressing them, and in no way did I want or even imagine that I would censor SC (she’s uncensorable, and I grudgingly admire that). I generally ignore her but she decided I wasn’t paying enough attention so she @ me with an obvious comment that she doesn’t like Bernie Sanders. My God, every single day, the same damn thing. So, yes, I reacted with a snarky comment. I don’t think it was that far out of line.
There are a group of commenters here who, for every post I made for a period of years, would just reflexively post something in the flavor of “Bernie Bro MM is at it again.” What bothers me about this behavior is that it chases away other commenters, people who support Sanders for reasons equally as valid as the commenters’ reasons for not supporting Bernie. I get emails from people thanking me for being reasonable about the possibility that Sanders could win. Those people don’t comment – they don’t want to put up with half a dozen “go away BernieBro” comments.
Baud does engage in behavior that is sometimes the same as what low grade trolls engage in. That is, specifically and as I said above, placing himself into threads that he didn’t start, changing the subject, and using nasty ad hominems when he’s frustrated. So in this thread I chased it down and didn’t tolerate it. I did not call him a troll. I don’t think he’s a troll, he makes good contributions. But in this case, I thought he wasn’t helping, and I made my case.
My final thought on these commenters is that they “other” Sanders by calling him “not a Democrat” and then they use that othering as license to say some very nasty things about him. Now, I’ve said things about candidates that are negative, and I think some of that is healthy. But it is inconsistent to, on the one hand, say terrible things about Sanders, and then complain loud and long when I post a criticism of another candidate.
Finally, you made a major assumption about my “place”. Let me assure you, in no uncertain terms, that I have a huge personal stake in this election. She is 25 years old, and has a few months left until she is no longer on my insurance. She also has a serious, life-threatening pre-existing condition. I have a vital, deeply personal stake. Just because I don’t post about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I appreciate that your comment was reasonable, and that you expressed your opinion without rancor or ad hominem. I am trying to give you as honest an answer as I can about why I sometimes express frustration with some of the more ardent commenters here.
Just to be crystal clear: everyone has a right to post here within the commenting guidelines and I’m probably one of the posters here least interested in banning or silencing anyone.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Thank you. * I am not crying you are crying
Barbara
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: I am not going to restate anything I have said previously, but consider my last sentence: if you are going to engage, the best and most persuasive engagement is answering the objections as stated, in this case, Sanders’ record on immigration.
Emma from FL
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: He is not a Democrat except when running for President. He is registered as an Independent in Vermont.
Elizabelle
@Emma from FL: Yup. That’s determinative to me, and MisterMix glided right past it.
We need a uniter, not someone who is going to wag and shout at the party that was stupid enough to let him pull this trick (this month I’m a Democrat, next month, not so much).
Ohio Mom
Late to this thread but I think I cracked the code of the Trump Super Bowl ad.
On the surface, yeah it allows Trumpers to claim their hero — and themselves by extension — aren’t racist.
But the subtext is, this Black woman’s life and freedom depended on the largesse of a powerful white man, and ain’t that the way it should be?
Trump is signaling he’ll keep on keeping them in their place.
To free one person just underlines that all those who continued to be imprisoned is because this white man says so.
carolann
No one who’s been paying attention should, honestly. I lived in Senator Sanders’ neck of the woods for decades and he always holds the opinions that are popular for as long as he needs to hold them in order to get what’s best for a certain milyanaire who doesn’t believe in charity.
See: Immigration, gun control, equal pay, LGBT+ rights, any civil rights issue.
tam1MI
@Baud:
Unlike the many Dems I have talked to who say they will stay home if Bernie is “forced on them”, I’ll probably just leave the top of the ballot blank and concentrate my efforts downballot.
tam1MI
@Betty Cracker:
Other Dems haven’t made “consistency” their main selling point or attacked people who evolved on an issue.
Barbara
@Ohio Mom: Obama had an entire process by which anyone who met certain criteria would be considered for early release — not a pardon — from a harsh sentence. Hundreds were released early and they didn’t need any celebrity help. They even came up with forms and guidance on how to do it. It was called the Clemency Project. Hillary Clinton would no doubt have continued the project into the new administration.
Barbara
@tam1MI: Maybe read our own MM on Biden and the AUMF. Or don’t, as you wish, but if you can name another candidate who evolved on something I can probably find you the place where they have been criticized for their original position. Bloomberg is (justly, IMO) criticize for his rather delayed evolution on stop and frisk, just for instance, here and elsewhere.
Outside this blog, Warren is routinely criticized for having been a Republican until however long ago. Buttigieg has been criticized for changing course on M4A, especially when he makes it a point of criticizing others for their own stance.
IOW, you are painting with way too broad of a brush. As for Sanders on immigration, he would almost certainly reverse what Trump started (e.g., the bans from specific countries and so on). But it is not clear (or I just haven’t heard) what his affirmative policies will be, e.g., will he try to pass DACA. My sense is that it isn’t a priority.
My main point is that if you can’t come here and make concrete defenses of Sanders and what his policy positions are, what are we supposed to do with that?
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Barbara: I was responding to the comment directed at me:
This is the kind of thing that is constantly re-stated in the comments by the Sanders haters, it is the attitude that drives away reasonable non-bro Sanders supporters, and it is why I responded the way I did.
It’s fair to ask for an examination of any of Sanders’ positions, and I will be happy to give them the same critical eye that I did when Kerry trotted out his lame defense of Biden’s AUMF vote. Luckily, Biden himself cleaned that up and improved his messaging. One of the roles of party loyalists criticizing candidates is to help them realize that their rhetoric falls short.
I think Sanders had gotten a pass from the other candidates and the media because nobody thinks he can win. I don’t think he’s a lock for Iowa tonight, but if he does win then he’ll get a lot more scrutiny and you can bet that I’ll link to good critiques.
Barbara
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: It’s too broad of a brush, I agree, but the behavior of some of his highest profile supporters is a significant reason for why I find it hard to support him
ETA: Calling them Sanders “haters” is itself somewhat inflammatory. Sanders detractors or doubters would be fairer.
Ohio Mom
Barbara @125: Yes, Obama was strategic in doing the right thing.
Trump got the woman in the commercial out of jail as a personal favor, that’s his style.
And now is using this event as a dog whistle.
low-tech cyclist
No, what I’m going to tell you is that I have no idea which of the top few candidates is the most ‘electable,’ but once we win 2020, we have to get megashit done in 2021 to save the Republic and save the climate.
Warren’s the only one of the leaders who seems to have a realistic understanding of what she’s up against and what it’s going to take. Biden thinks he can schmooze Mitch McConnell; Sanders believes in a revolution. I think they’re both nuts.