Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

There’s always a light at the end of the frog.

It’s easier to kill a dangerous animal than a man who just happens to have different thoughts/values than one’s own.

No Justins, No Peace

The choice is between normal and crazy.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Biden: Oh no. We’ve upset Big Pharma again.

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

Another missed opportunity for Jamie Dimon to just shut the fuck up.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Battle won, war still ongoing.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

“But what about the lurkers?”

American History and Black History can not be separated.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2020 / Debate Open Thread- Man, Do I Still Have the Magic Or What?

Reader Interactions

189Comments

  2. 2.

    Evap

    I’ve gotta say that I would be happy to vote for any of the candidates on the stage tonight.  Even Bernie.

  3. 3.

    download my app in the app store mistermix

    Klobuchar is the one who’s impressing me most. Pete’s answer on policing was really bad.  Just fess up that you didn’t get that right.

  13. 13.

    Mary G

    @Baud: She’s doing great tonight. Bringing up Twitler’s sad about being cut out of Home Alone 2, and blaming Trudeau for me cracked me up.

  18. 18.

    patroclus

    Good answer from Klobuchar on the trade agreement with Canada and Mexico.  When she gets a chance, she shines.  Unfortunately, she was 5th in Iowa and is probably going to run our of money soon and I’m going to have to switch to someone I like less.  I just wish the American people agreed with me more of the time.

  21. 21.

    Martin

    I think the attacks on Mike are going to backfire. Mike is going to lean into the attack – yes, I’m going to outspend all of you because I’m trying to get Trump out of office using the rules of the 2020 campaign – which is massive online media spending, whether it comes from your small donors, my pockets, or the Russian military.

  31. 31.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Liz: invest in our children. Put real money into education, housing. Raise wages of child care workers and teachers.

  32. 32.

    jl

    Good final question. I do note that achieving that feat required help from a recently deceased journalist, at least for this panel.

    Linsey Davis only one that had some good moments.

  34. 34.

    hitchhiker

    @Martin:

    Agree. To all the true believers, everything about Bloomberg is unseemly, undemocratic, and unfair. Who does he think he is, and all that.

    BUT. To all the regular citizens who start paying attention during an election year after Labor Day, the news that there’s somebody with lots more money than trump who is prepared to punch him in the face is mildly interesting right now.

    And since this isn’t a year with an exciting two-person race, or a year where one person dominates from the jump, his position in the muddle is more or less like all of theirs: Why not? Seeing the rest of them attack him just puts his name into the mix.

    Like millions of others, I got a letter from him today (that didn’t include a request for money). How did his campaign happen to have my home address? I mean, I know the answer but again, for regular people the approach he’s taking could have an appeal.

  36. 36.

    Mike in DC

    @Martin:

    You go after Bloomberg on 3 things:

    1. He’s a former/recent Republican
    2.  His record as Mayor
    3.  Aspects of his executive style

    The guy endorsed Dubya at the Republican convention in 2004!  Makes Biden’s Iraq vote seem trivial by comparison.  “Can we really trust him to enact a Democratic agenda?”

  39. 39.

    Tim C.

    Gonna say this: I can live with Bernie.  He’s not gonna be able to deliver on promises he’s making, don’t get me wrong, but he’s not the worst.

  42. 42.

    Marcopolo

    AK knocking it out of the park tonight. She should be the candidate winning in the moderate lane, not Biden.

  43. 43.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Amy: In 2016, we lost an election, but we did not lose hope. I have a plan to reduce child poverty.

    Story about FDR on the funeral train. Weeping bystander, “I didn’t know the president, but he knew me.” There’s currently a lack of empathy in the White House. But I (Amy) know you and will fight for you.

  51. 51.

    Martin

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m not advocating it.

    What would help Mikes case a lot is a promise to push for public financing of elections and related political spending if he won. A constitutional amendment if necessary to address citizens united. That could provide mechanisms to hold social media companies accountable for permitting foreign influence.

    But we’re already at the highest bidder stage – and the bidders don’t even need to be Americans. The only way through may be to get a bidder that is willing to change that. Because Trump ain’t gonna do it.

  54. 54.

    patroclus

    Very good close from Amy.  I think Warren did well tonight, but my biased view is that Klobuchar won this debate.  Clearly!

  60. 60.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Baud: There was another debate — in December, maybe? — in which Amy was widely considered the runaway winner. And again tonight. Wonder why that’s not translating into better polling numbers / financial support?

  66. 66.

    Martin

    @Mike in DC: And he endorsed Clinton in 2016 at the DNC. Those attacks aren’t going to land, any more than Petes record as mayor, Biden or Bernies records as Senator, etc.

    His executive style is going to win over voters. Not saying it should be that way, but it will. The notion that winners are assholes is well enshrined in US culture.

  70. 70.

    Marcopolo

    @SiubhanDuinne: Ingrained expectations & conventional wisdom campaign coverage.  On the other hand, AK has made a lot farther than a lot of other “rising stars.”

  73. 73.

    Another Scott

    @Marcopolo: He also helped reelect Snyder in Michigan:

    Washington – — Former New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg donated $3 million to Gov. Rick Snyder’s re-election campaign — the most he contributed to any candidate as part of a $40 million effort.

    The billionaire majority owner of the media conglomerate Bloomberg LP, backed five Republican winners including Snyder, though many Democrats he backed lost. Bloomberg also backed U.S. Rep. Gary Peters, D-Bloomfield Township, who won his race for U.S. Senate.

    Bloomberg told Politico Snyder is “an extremely competent guy who took on the unions to get Detroit and Michigan going in the right direction. And he was re-elected despite being attacked by the unions.”

    Snyder signed “Right to Work” legislation in December 2012 following an unsuccessful bid by unions to enshrine collective bargaining rights in the state constitution. Unions also worked aggressively to try to defeat Snyder in his re-election bid.
    […]

    Bloomberg isn’t our friend.

    He may hate Trump, but so does about (number picked at random) 78.365% of the planet…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  74. 74.

    jl

    @SiubhanDuinne: I think Klobuchar is by far the best centrist on policy. I hope by some miracle she can do better than before and stay in the race. I think she’s had problems because

    really horribly mistaken idea about how to pitch her message, a lot of ‘hard choices’ and kind of downbeat message that sounds like ‘look you ordinary people can’t get much right now’ I’m glad she mostly ditched that tonight.

    Absurd and toxic sexism of US politics, and corporate media

    She’s not slippery or ‘cooperative’ enough on policy to be high on corporate world’s list of desirable centrist candidates. Beto and Pete much higher on their list for support.

    I’d love for her to outperform in NH. Warren managed it in IA, and maybe both can in NH.

  75. 75.

    khead

    I’ll go with…

    Klobuchar, Bernie (shoot me), Joe, Pete….

    At the very least, Amy definitely got the inside post draw for the VP derby tonight.

  78. 78.

    Marcopolo

    @Martin: “His executive style” wtf does that mean?  I’d love for Bloomberg to let all those folks who worked for him out of their NDAs so we can learn the unvarnished truth about what it is like to work for him.

  79. 79.

    Mallard Filmore

    @Mike in DC:

     

    “Can we really trust him to enact a Democratic agenda?”

    Maybe he sees the power that Trump has collected and thinks “I want that.”

  81. 81.

    patroclus

    Klobuchar getting major props from regular voters on Chris Hayes’ round-up as well as on ABC.

  85. 85.

    PsiFighter37

    So…I didn’t watch any of it and am now just getting around to catching up on stuff. Was it more exciting? Did Andrew Yang and Tom Steyer give any reason for their continued presence in this race?

  90. 90.

    Sab

    @SiubhanDuinne: Doesn’t apply to you, but Amy’s campaign store has awesome winter stuff: wool socks, ice-scraper in a fleece mitten.

    I am hedging my bets, so sent her some bucks, and the bling has been very useful this winter.

  92. 92.

    The Dangerman

    Unless you get to 60 in the Senate, can do it via Reconciliation, or can blow up the filibuster (not saying that is a bad thing), the only Democratic agenda getting enacted is getting Trump out of the White House and getting as many members of his Family in Orange Jumpsuits as possible. Everything else is icing.

  93. 93.

    Mai naem mobile

    I think people will have a problem with Trumpov attacking a female candidate in a personal way the way he did with Hillary. I am talking about his base. I am talking about the rest of the voters. Warren and Klobuchar won’t have the 30 yr Clinton baggage . Especially attacking Minnesota nice. I don’t mean it as a female being weaker but I just don’t think being verbally abusive towards a professional middle aged woman won’t go over well.

  95. 95.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Sab: I dunno, I saw a few snowflakes* earlier today (a couple of days ago it was 70°), so maybe I should stock up on Amy gear.

    *The real thing, ice crystals, not Republicans.

  96. 96.

    guachi

    My finances are in better shape after selling my house last month. Made my first donations – to Klobuchar and Warren. Competence, knowledge, experience.

  97. 97.

    Marcopolo

    @Marcopolo: Punished for trying to use my phone.  Debate minutes for each candidate:  Sanders 18:25; Biden 17:44; Buttigieg 17:09; Warren 14:25; Klobuchar 14:24; Steyer 12:08; Yang 6:27.

  98. 98.

    Adam L Silverman

    @The Dangerman: If we’re lucky enough to come out the other side of this mess come January, we’re going to need a Truth and Reconciliation Committee with the ability not just to refer people for prosecution, but with the power to actually do the prosecutions. And everything is going to be have to be looked at. Every political appointee they transition to Title 5 or Title 10 in the attempt to have Stephen Miller’s or AG Barr’s acolytes burrowed in to the civil service so they serve as landmines to blow up whatever an incoming Democratic administration is doing is going to have to be identified and terminated. The entire first term of a Democratic administration that would start in January 2021 is going to have to be devoted to assess the damage, triage it, stabilize the government and the Republic, and then move to more long term corrections so we don’t get a repeat. That’s the only big initiatives or undertakings that are going to be possible because otherwise we’ll have won the war, again, and failed to secure the peace.

  100. 100.

    JWR

    What I don’t get is that everyone, from JMM to David Brooks, and now this guy on ABC is saying, emphatically, that this is Bernie’s! to lose. I just don’t get it.

  101. 101.

    Marcopolo

    @guachi:Long time Warren supporter here but I did give my first donation to Amy tonight. And Warren as well. Having a woman as president would be such a fucking breath of fresh air after the Orange fucker as well as a nice repudiation of him.

  103. 103.

    zhena gogolia

    I can’t watch, but — is Bloomberg in this debate? No one has mentioned him in these threads as saying anything.

  104. 104.

    Chip Daniels

    @Mai naem mobile:

    Or the other way round.

    I bet that the female candidates have a lifetime of experience with various Trump types and like Pelosi they know how to get under their skin.

  108. 108.

    hilts

    Went into tonight’s debate believing that Warren and Klobuchar were head and shoulders above the other candidates and I feel the same right now.  They’re the winning ticket.  I’ll vote for them in either order.

  109. 109.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @zhena gogolia: Bloomberg was “in” the debate as a question topic near the end – how much do you hate billionaires buying their way into the nomination? – but not physically present this time.

  110. 110.

    jl

    @hilts: “Chris Matthews loved Amy Klobuchar.”

    Why did you dash my hopes and dreams for the best centrist?

    I assume Matthews likes her for all the wrong reasons. Her ‘eat your gray boiled broccoli’ presentation (which she largely ditched tonight, thank God), and her tired bragging about being an iron workers daughter from the real America Heartland.

    She also has a hard time resisting opportunities to patently pander, but not nearly as bad a case and the two Bs.

  111. 111.

    debbie

    Twice this hour I’ve seen the Bloomberg ad that’s all about him teaming up with Obama on the local Fox/Sinclair station.

  116. 116.

    The Dangerman

    @Adam L Silverman:

    If we’re lucky enough to come out the other side of this mess come January, we’re going to need a Truth and Reconciliation Committee with the ability not just to refer people for prosecution, but with the power to actually do the prosecutions. And everything is going to be have to be looked at.

    Amen…

    …and my nature is to forgive and forget, live and let live, let my pacifistic Spiritual nature shine through…

    …but, this time, I want heads on pikes.

    This will serve as a warning not to let it happen again (whatever the hell “it” has been; I’m not sure that is completely clear with the large and diverse cast of dirty players in this thing).

  117. 117.

    Raven Onthill

    If women would turn out for any of the women in the race, she would win. So far, this doesn’t seem to be happening. Sigh.

    PS: Heck, if women were just willing to vote against Trump that would be enough.

  118. 118.

    Marcopolo

    @JWR:It is about 1) Sanders fundraising ability–he brought in $25 million in Jan; and 2) the ability of momentum narratives to sway the average very low information voter–which is about 90-95% of them.

    After “winning” (yeah, he really didn’t but that was the initial reporting from the media & his campaign) IA Buttigieg’s poll numbers in NH have jumped him into 2nd place behind Sanders. Very high likelihood Sanders wins NH & the poll bump from that (combined with the negative polling bumps that Biden is getting out of IA & will get out of NH) will help him in SC & NV.

    Sanders is the front runner atm.

    The big elephant in the room, however, is that if none of these candidates have a majority (or close to it) of delegates after Super Tuesday (around Mid-March when over 1/3 of all delegates will have been awarded) then because the D contests all proportionally split the delegates by share of vote it is pretty likely we get a brokered convention. I.e. a candidate has to win a larger and larger share of a smaller pie each succeeding contest to get to the majority.

    Guess we will have to wait to see how it all falls out.

  119. 119.

    Mai naem mobile

    @Adam L Silverman: fuck the reconciliation. I want prosecutions. I am not saying this because I am some bloodthirsty idiot. I think we.got here because Nixon got away with Watergate(he should have done time), got away with Iran Contra and Dubbya with all the issues dealing with the War and Economic Crash (people who Eric Holder  didn’t think were worth going after.)

  123. 123.

    hilts

    @jl:

    Just as a broken clock can be correct twice a day, every once in a while even Chris Matthews can be correct.

    Matthews praised Klobuchar for mentioning Romney and praised her overall forceful presentation.

    I hope Warren and Klobuchar can find some way to join forces.

  124. 124.

    Sab

    @SiubhanDuinne: What with global warming we have had several freezing rain storms this winter. Used to be we only got snow when it’s cold.

    That mitten ice-scraper is great for scraping a half inch of ice off car windows.

  126. 126.

    PJ

    I am leaning towards the theory floating around that Bloomberg isn’t running to be President, but is running as President so that he can spend unlimited amounts of his own money attacking Trump without running afoul of campaign finance laws.  But I also think he would not be happy about Warren passing a 2% tax on the wealthiest Americans.

  129. 129.

    Gin & Tonic

    @O. Felix Culpa: Th bright side of Bloomberg entering the race is that the Miguel Bloombito Twitter account is active. Sample, if you’ve been living in a cave: “Soy el onlyo billioñairo en el primario. El Steyero es runningo para el Sanderista vicepresidente.“

  130. 130.

    jl

    @Marcopolo:  I think Sanders also understands the importance of always staying on message, or maybe it is a lucky  reflex of an obsessive crank. He also knows how to squeeze in at least a few seconds of very well worn slogans from his stump speech in thing he says.

    Trump has a swindler’s understanding of the same point.

    The two have that in common, though not much else.

  131. 131.

    JWR

    @Marcopolo: Thank you for that! But I do wonder how much of that $25mil came from small donations, and how much from his Our Revolution PAC. (Or laundered from Russia, [with love].)

    ;-)

  134. 134.

    tobie

    I’ve been giving to Klobuchar on and off since she announced in February but regularly since November. I like her no nonsense style. As a President she would be fiercely effective. I was happy to hear her say in the town hall last night that her top priority would be climate change. Tonight has convinced me — not that I had much doubt — that she’d be tough enough to take on Trump.

  135. 135.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    This latest poll, the fifth of seven the Suffolk University Political Research Center is conducting in the run-up to the nation’s first primary on Tuesday, was concluded Friday night while seven candidates participated in perhaps the race’s most crucial debate, one that could further shake up the rankings.

    About a third of calling was conducted after the debate began, but it is too early to see its effects in the results, according to David Paleologos, director of Suffolk’s Political Research Center.

    “We’ll have a better picture on Saturday,” when the sixth poll in the series is released, Paleologos said.
    ***

    “Sanders hasn’t faltered at all. His support’s been rock solid, but he’s been around that 24, 25 percent all week,” Paleologos said. “He’s very strong among young voters, and really the core of his success depends on younger voters.”

    If enough millennial and Gen-Z voters turn out at the polls on Tuesday, Paleologos explained, Sanders is likely to win. But if they don’t, he could fall to Buttigieg, who is stronger among older voters.  (link)

  141. 141.

    PJ

    @Steeplejack (phone): I have no idea how any of this is going to shake out, but if it comes down to Republican billionaires spending hundreds of millions to defeat Trump, I’m with Buttigieg on this, we shouldn’t say no.

  142. 142.

    Mr. Kite

    @Adam L Silverman:

    If we’re to restore the republic and rule of law, I am not fond of creating a new extralegal committee process. Put the system to work if you want to restore trust in it.

  143. 143.

    Jeffro

    National snooze media, whenever you’re ready to give trumpov’s ‘orange circle o’ face’…or say just his mental health status…a tenth of the coverage that you gave Hillz’ occasional coughs, let us know.

  144. 144.

    Princess

    What does it mean that the oldest candidate (roughly) is the one most popular with younger voters and the youngest candidate is most popular with older voters? That seems…unexpected.

  147. 147.

    BR

    I’m watching the debate now and I actually don’t see much different — everyone was just as I expected…  If anything, they’re all looking a bit more tired than before, but other than that, they’re all fine, though some better than others.

  148. 148.

    PJ

    @Princess: The younger voters who like Bernie like him, in part, because he speaks with certainty about everything, and never changes his mind (and if he does, he is reluctant to acknowledge it.)  This kind of “consistency” is appealing to people who have less life experience, and in particular less experience of learning that certainty is often a prerequisite for disaster.  It is also appealing to people who have no idea about how electoral politics works and how laws are made.  (Had they stopped running Schoolhouse Rock when they were growing up?)

    Pete, on the other hand, appeals to older voters because he is “that nice young man.”  They like someone who seems fundamentally decent, looks good on paper, is a white Christian male, and isn’t shouting at them.

  150. 150.

    cokane

    @Marcopolo: Brokered conventions are unlikely in this era because candidates drop out. Klobuchar may drop out after NH, as perhaps will a bunch of other single digit candidates like Yang and Gabbard.

    Warren’s campaign has already announced dialing back spending. She may drop out before Super Tuesday. I think we certainly see Biden drop out if he fails in both Nevada and South Carolina. These races winnow out very quickly in both parties recently.

    There’s some weird stuff this year with both Steyer and Bloomberg, but I’m not sure either is a risk yet to hit the delegate threshold needed in many of these other states.

  152. 152.

    Jackie

    I was really impressed with Klobuchar tonight (again.) If she doesn’t get the nomination, I hope she’s offered the VP. One way or another, we’ll need someone representing the mid-west on the ticket. I’m with you is a great slogan.

  155. 155.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    So I read some of the responses below to my comments on buying a P100 particulate respirator because of the novel coronavirus. Thank you all.

    I do understand that I may be premature. I genuinely hope that I am. But I’d prefer to not be a statistic if I can help it and be prepared.

    While it is true that the virus is spread through direct contact, such as by touching the face, droplets in the air can also be breathed in through the nose and mouth.

    I do wash my hands frequently and avoid touching my face, particularly since I not only go to clinicals as a student nurse, but also because I work as a cashier, which is obviously a very public job

    I probably wouldn’t begin to wear it until confirmed cases started exponentially growing in the US and would try to avoid sick people to minimize my exposure as filters can only do so much

    To protect the eyes, I’d wear tight fitting goggles

  156. 156.

    BR

    @Barbara:

    I think that Biden and Sanders are going to get physically worn out by the campaign trail, and if Klobuchar and Warren are still in the campaign then they’ll pick up support.

  157. 157.

    cokane

    @Barbara: Warren is my #1, but the news of cutting back spending and then staffer issues has often been the prelude to dropping out.

    Hard to imagine she stays in even to Super Tuesday if she fails to come in at least second in one of these first four, and she’s not currently polling well enough for that in the remaining three.

  160. 160.

    BR

    I really want to combine these candidates — I want the folksiness of Klobuchar and Biden, the righteous indignation of Sanders, the wonkiness of Warren…

  161. 161.

    Ruckus

    @Martin:

    Isn’t vlad about twice as rich as Mike? Plus he has the added assistance of the entire Russian government, military, spy service……

    I’m going with Mike is a piker in the who’s wealthiest race.

  164. 164.

    Adam L Silverman

    @NotMax: Nope. An Independent Counsel on steroids who is then exposed to high levels of gamma radiation. Followed by legislative action to take the norms and traditions that everyone previously thought were actually rules and regulations based on laws are actually enshrined into law, given teeth, and then put into effect.

  166. 166.

    Starfish

    @PsiFighter37: Steyer went after the moderator’s nonsense at one point, and that was good. He said that every candidate on stage was better than Trump and had similar positions on major issues and needed to keep the focus on how bad Trump is.

  167. 167.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Admit to seeing very little daylight between what you said there and what I surmised above. Not arguing against what you posit, rather skeptical of what the endpoint will turn out to be.

  168. 168.

    JWR

    @frosty:

    Great analogy. That’s exactly what happened in 2008.

    Yep. I was gonna say “the Obama curse”, but Obama and Curse in the same sentence just don’t fit the bill. ;-)

  169. 169.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @NotMax:

    Like I said before, I hope it is. But then again, we are overdue for a pandemic like the Spanish flu. It’s not a question of if but a question of when. It’s good to be prepared for emergencies. If nothing else, it will provide piece of mind

    Now that we’re on the subject, I’ve only watched the 90s miniseries of Stephen King’s the Stand, but was it ever mentioned in any of the different versions of the book whether there were any non-immune survivors of the superflu? Like, for example someone living in the remote wilderness alone, the Sentinelese on North Sentinel island, or even astronauts in space? This is for anybody to answer.

    I’ve read that King wrote (very good) vignettes in the book.

    Something funny I saw on reddit today was a “shower thought” that said that because Stephen King’s stories are all pretty much connected, the Losers Club defeated It only to probably die a few years later from Captain Trips, which is, honestly, darkly hilarious and fits King’s style

  170. 170.

    Mnemosyne

    @JWR:

    Because Bernie’s been campaigning for the nomination since 2015. Everyone else only started in 2019. He should be running away with the nomination on name recognition alone, and he’s not.

  174. 174.

    NotMax

    @NotMax

    Not ignoring he’s been successful at marketing his stuff. So has McDonald’s, and I choose not to give them my time and patronage as well for similar reasons.

  175. 175.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    President Donald Trump fired European Union Ambassador Gordon Sondland Friday, in apparent retribution for testifying against him in the congressional impeachment proceedings.

    “I was advised today that the president intends to recall me effective immediately as United States Ambassador to the European Union,” Sondland said in a statement. He expressed gratitude to Mr. Trump “for having given me the opportunity to serve.”

    Sondland’s dismissal came just hours after Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman, the top National Security Council official on Ukraine who also testified against Trump, was fired and escorted out of the White House by security.

    Trump feels empowered I guess. Asswipe. Not that I feel too bad about Sondland getting fired. He wasn’t qualified in the first place.

    The security “escorting” Vindland out of the White House, I assume it’s the SS, have to know this was retribution. Vindland is a patriot who testified for the greater good of the country.

    I don’t know how these guys stand protecting such evil, corrupt people; protection they don’t deserve. At some point they have to ask themselves, “Am I actually violating my oath to the Constitution by protecting these fascists? Am I complicit?”

  176. 176.

    cokane

    @Mnemosyne: In 2008 Clinton got only a tiny percentage more in Iowa (29) and came in third despite being in a position something like what Sanders enjoys now. And Sanders may take a big win in NH.

  178. 178.

    janesays

    Is it fair to say that if Biden finishes in 4th place again in New Hampshire that his campaign is effectively over? Going back 40 years or so, there’s never been a candidate who got spanked in both Iowa and New Hampshire and then gone on to become the nominee.

  179. 179.

    NotMax

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Funny you should mention the Secret Service, as David Farenhold had a long piece in WaPo about that today.

    President Trump’s company charges the Secret Service for the rooms agents use while protecting him at his luxury properties — billing U.S. taxpayers at rates as high as $650 per night, according to federal records and people who have seen receipts.

    Those charges, compiled here for the first time, show that Trump has an unprecedented — and largely hidden — business relationship with his own government. When Trump visits his clubs in Palm Beach, Fla., and Bedminster, N.J., the service needs space to post guards and store equipment.

    Trump’s company says it charges only minimal fees. But Secret Service records do not show that.
    [snip]
    The full extent of the Secret Service’s payments to Trump’s company is not known. The Secret Service has not listed them in public databases of federal spending, as is usually required for payments over $10,000.
    [snip]
    The Secret Service is required to tell Congress twice a year about what it spends to protect Trump at his properties.

    But since 2016, it has only filed two of the required six reports, according to congressional offices. The reasons, according to Secret Service officials: key personnel left and nobody picked up the job.

    Even in those two reports, the lines for Bedminster and Mar-a-Lago were blank. Source

    Got to be additional baksheesh going on out of (over)sight.

  180. 180.

    NotMax

    @janesays

    Highly dependent on the reported differences among the four, in that case. If they are separated by only a percentage point or two, probably not a BFD. If he doesn’t meet the threshold for obtaining delegates, then triple super ultra red alert for his campaign.

  181. 181.

    jl

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):“Am I actually violating my oath to the Constitution by protecting these fascists? Am I complicit?”

    I think probably at some point, they would balk. But it would be a big hurdle. They are very very small fry in the DC power world, despite the hypocritical ceremonial, and empty praise lavished on the people who actually do the hard and hazardous work in the military and law enforcement. They have to pay rent, they need to worry about their retirement, many maybe most of them have families to provide for.

    Maybe if someone like Mattis had the guts to force the Trumpsters to escort him out, maybe then there would be protests, resignations, and more whistleblowers. But short of that, I don’t know.

    And their one job is to protect the president. That is important and anything that could be viewed as insubordination might seem like they are betraying their duty to do their one job. In one way they are right, since a successful attack on Trump’s person would be very very bad news. But in another, I think they are misguided, because they could protest in a way that would not interfere with their one job.

  182. 182.

    JWR

    @NotMax:

    Waitaminnit! You mean we’re paying him to be our president? This cannot be true, as he donates his salary to, you know, drugs. (He gives a lot to drugs!)

    ;)

  183. 183.

    NotMax

    @jl

    Not solely the president. Dignitaries of all sorts.

    When Princess Grace’s daughters attended a summer camp on the same lake where I was living (Kelly had been a camper there when she was a child) the Secret Service assigned two agents to sit in a motel room at the closest hamlet the whole time the girls were there.

  184. 184.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @NotMax:

    The Stand, along with the Dark Tower series, has been cited as his best work; his magnum opus, but it’s not everybody’s cup of tea.

    His work doesn’t usually adapt very well to visual media (TV and movies) well.

    I have to admit, McDs is a guilty pleasure when it’s fresh

  185. 185.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @NotMax:

    That’s fucking outrageous. He’s fleecing the taxpayers and his dumbfuck supporters don’t give a damn. On top of that the DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruled today that Democratic lawmakers have no standing to challenge Trump’s violation of the emoluments clause in court. If they don’t have standing, who does?!

  186. 186.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @jl:

    But in another, I think they are misguided, because they could protest in a way that would not interfere with their one job.

    Agreed. Not sure what that would look like though

  187. 187.

    NotMax

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Don’t get me wrong. No way mean to speak ill of your liking his works. Millions do. It simply doesn’t click with me.

    So old can remember when what became The Dark Tower was first serialized in one of the pulp magazines (F&SF?) under the broad title of The Gunslinger.

    Also remember the same being done with what became Dune in, IIRC, Analog magazine a decade or more before that.

  189. 189.

    Original Lee

    @Marcopolo: As a former worker bee for Bloomberg, I can definitely say he’s really rabidly about control, and his pet ideas fall on both sides of the political spectrum. Case in point, his gun control stance vs. his anti-union stance. I give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is, but the corollary to that is, he really makes sure he gets what he wants out of the transaction. It can get ugly if what he wants isn’t feasible.

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