I agree with the tweet Anne Laurie posted below, that Warren is being ignored, mainly because the media likes to focus on a fight between the top two candidates, who at the moment in New Hampshire are Buttigieg and Sanders. I just did some searching for Warren news and there’s not a lot of it, and most of it is negative. Apparently some shitty volunteers (all campaigns have them, some more than others) treated six women of color in Nevada badly, so they quit. Luckily, Politico was there (not linking) and it made it to CNN.
Anyway, not gonna dwell on that, but just to say that there’s a pile-on of one kind when the media thinks you’re a loser, and another kind when they think you might win. She’s experiencing the former. Is a lot of it because she’s a woman? Hell, yeah. If you think that women aren’t treated like shit in politics, just look at the fact that Trumpers run around with “Trump That Bitch” bumper stickers, and it’s not treated with the same seriousness that other slurs would receive.
Franklin Foer isn’t someone I usually think is very good, and I disagree with some of this piece, but he may be on to something with how Warren can distinguish herself from Sanders:
If Warren wanted to define herself in opposition to Sanders, she wouldn’t need to tie herself in knots. Where Sanders talks about revolution, her description of the American economy amounts to a restoration. She wants to return to another era, when the economy (and government) was less captured by Big Business. Her scourge is corruption, and embedded in her incessant denunciations of it is the hope that the system can be salvaged by extrication of that tumor. Where socialism imagines greater concentrations of power—greater state planning, greater public provisioning of goods—her vision ultimately points in the direction of a more decentralized, more competitive economy. Sanders’s keyword is equality; her best speeches have extolled liberty.
Foer goes on to cast Warren as a traditionalist who wants existing institutions to work better. Read the piece if you want to see how a “moderate” would change Warren’s campaign.
I’ve always thought that focusing on how we’re getting screwed by corporations, and proposing reasonable solutions should be right in the wheelhouse of a winning Democratic Presidential candidate, and nobody does it better than Warren. I think she still has a chance to catch on without changing much of her message.
JMG
The American news media are profoundly sexist, but that’s only part of Warren’s problem (I am a supporter of hers). The Democratic electorate itself is suffering from what golfer Ben Hogan called “the paralysis of analysis.” As a group, we are so captured by the “who can best beat Trump” frame that we cannot go back to first principles and say, “which of these talented people would make the best President?” I expect indecision to be the leader of the nomination contest for months to come.
Betty
The piece you quote is confusing. He starts by saying that Warren could distinguish herself from Sanders and proceeds to explain how she already has been distinguishing herself from Sanders. As you say, the big problem is overcoming the gender bias. Another aspect is that her very competence is a negative to the big corporate bosses who control the MSM.
Jeffro
She is a fantastic person and I like her very much. If she was running on just a more general ‘end Trumpovian corruption + we’re getting screwed by big corporations’ message, that would be one thing, but I think between her M4A position and her anti-bank/anti-finance/pro-regulation stances (all of which I personally agree with, btw – I’m just sayin’) some significant portion of Dem voters seems to be spooked. I think she would have found a lot more traction with the more general message.
And honestly, we are going to need every last Dem Senator come January 2021.
I’d now like to retreat to my safe space of ‘let’s see how Super Tuesday shakes out’ ;)
Served
There are so many lenses the view this primary through, and trying to see through all of them at once results in a horrific sense of vertigo. There’s the desperate need for decisive action on various crises (both systemic and existential), the mortal threat to our democracy that four more years of Trump represents, safe and return to normalcy candidacies v transformational visions, and so on.
I realized last night I support Warren because I assume she would govern like Obama, but a little to the left. Basically, a left-of-center technocrat who approaches problems from a systemic perspective. Maybe that’s running back to the “idea” of Obama, but it appeals to me. I will add that I assume she will have some of the drawbacks as Obama, some degree of naivete when it comes to dealing with Congress and frustration in dealing with the “Washington” of it all, but her CFPB experience may lend her a better edge.
I think people don’t put enough consideration into how effective an executive/administrator a candidate will be and over-emphasize small nuances in policy positions. I think Warren would be best at that, and I agree with her policy vision overall.
As far as her campaign, I think she is right to focus on corruption, but it isn’t landing and tying back to the Trump family well enough yet. She’s got to call out the Trump children hard. Her early ‘I have a plan for that’ messaging was very effective, and the corruption message as framed now isn’t connecting with voters as well.
glory b
@Betty: I think she spent too much time beating the “I’m with Bernie” drum. If she had done more to point out where she differs from him, where she thought he was wrong, it would have been a better start for her.
I feel like she made the Hillary mistake, she wanted to woo his voters, so she tried not to p*** them off.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Betty: Yeah, he’s not very good, but I wanted to see if what he said spoke to people here. There are people who think that Warren’s problem is that she allied herself with Sanders too closely. I think she’s just pretty liberal, so is he, but he got a huge pass as a known quantity, male, nobody thought he could win, etc. But Foer thinks she should distinguish herself, so I posted that piece.
There really is a dearth of material on Warren right now, it is like she’s fallen off the edge of the world.
BR
Sanders would be an ok candidate if he picked better people to be around him — I like him just fine by himself, but it’s his team that pushes me away. It’s what Obama had and what Warren has that Sanders doesn’t seem to. And I’m also worried about how his wife’s longtime nemesis from Vermont now works in Barr’s DOJ, if I remember right, and I’m sure is busy compiling every piece of dirt from within the federal government’s vaults. (And reading about Jane Sanders’s tenure as a college president, it’s a mess.)
My hope is that Warren sticks with it, Sanders stumbles, and then Warren picks up his support (and even maybe his endorsement).
Bnad
Her embrace of M4A had a halo effect of making her positions seem indistinguishable from Sanders. That was the start of her drop in the polls. Funny how the media noise about the M4A litmus test abated as soon as she changed her position, almost as if it were a trap laid just for her. This is a place where Obama would have stayed steady and weathered the temporary unpopularity.
Villago Delenda Est
My nym, again and again.
Wipe them out. All of them.
Elizabelle
For those of us who support Elizabeth, let’s just continue to work really hard. Make those calls. Canvass.
It ain’t over until it’s over, and I do think she’s the best candidate. She unnerves Wall Street, for positive reasons, and who do you suppose owns the media?
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Bnad: This is where the media is really bad – any hint of wavering and they’re all over it. Sanders just says, “Fuck yeah I’m raising taxes to pay for M4A”, and they all dutifully write it down. Trump baldly asserts crimes, for god’s sake, and they dutifully write it down, because he asserts them boldy and without hedging. Also because she’s a woman, of course.
zhena gogolia
I’m feeling so terrible for Alexander Vindman, who’s about to be canned. And I feel fear — what I really hate is the fear that Drumpf makes me feel. They’re going to follow the Putin playbook right down the line. It took Putin 3 years to start really doing bad stuff like arresting Khodorkovsky, and the murders of journalists and opponents started after about 6 years.
Xavier
@JMG: right, except the word “captured” might be replaced by the word “panicked.” Panic over beating Trump seems to be driving the big poll swings we’re seeing.
schrodingers_cat
I am in agreement with most of Warren’s agenda but just like the Vt senator she seems to think that all our problems have economic solutions. In the age of the Orange Concealer who has weaponized white grievance this is delusional. I have watched most of the debates and EW’s answers always begin with huge multinational corporations .. While they may huge and evil that is not the existential crisis before us right now. It is about what kind of country do we want to be. Both EW and BS seem to agree with the isolationist stance taken by the Orange King in addition to being in agreement with his anti trade tirades which include tariffs.
As an immigrant who has spent more of her life in this country than any other, I always felt at home here in a way I didn’t in the country I was born in, India. But since 2016 campaign I have been questioning those assumptions. Neither BS nor EW make me feel sanguine. Although EW is better than BS because she has actual policy chops and she does not just blow hot air.
Baud
@Bnad: Warren’s problem is she had to win over Sanders voters completely, or she had to assemble a different coalition with some people who are skeptical about M4A. It’s hard to split that baby.
schrodingers_cat
@Bnad: She has crappy political instincts. She should not have taken the DNA test either. She gives in to bullies. Not good.
WaterGirl
@Served: How about “Trump has a scheme for that”?
WaterGirl
@Bnad: Am I the only person here who sees the nym “Bnau” and reads it as “Baud”?
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: He is an LTC in the army. it isn’t like he is going to be unemployed. The army will find a good slot for him in the Pentagon where he will continue to work on national security.
D Gardner
One advantage of the corporate-takeover-of-governance theme is that almost everyone can see it fairly objectively in one form or another, regardless of specific ideology. Since corporations are NOT people (despite SCOTUS’ proclamation), it seems this emphasis would be inclusive and not focus on denigrating or downplaying another candidate’s ideas. It also leads nicely into efforts to rein in the unlimited spending on lobbying and campaigning.
Xavier
@schrodingers_cat: yes, both Sanders and Warren focus on economic solutions, but mostly I think because that’s an area where government policy can be effective. And, I’m getting less and less sympathy for globalism. In practice it clearly involves a lot of exploitation for all parties except multinational elites.
Salty Sam
The Foer piece linked clarified something that I would like to hear from Warren (and I’ve been a staunch supporter since she jumped in- had a hard time choosing between her and Harris until Harris dropped out).
Rather than emphasizing her “(traditional) modernized version of Brandeisian liberalism“, I would like hear a focus on what a radical perversion of healthy capitalism that right-wing Masters Of The Universe have instituted in the last half-century, and rather than return to something from the past, articulate a vision of a capitalism that works for all.
Actually, she HAS been saying that, but we are so poorly served by horse-race coverage and right-wing (and misogynistic) bias in the MSM that that message doesn’t come through very well or often. I agree (much to my chagrin) that her window to differentiate herself from Wilmer is closing, but even if she gets the nomination, we’ll probably hear the Pocahontas shit ad nauseum.
Elizabelle
WRT MM’s thread topic: Los Angeles Times this very moment. Big Mark Barabak story on Cambridge, MA. The headline:
Thanks, Mark and LA Times. LOL. Haven’t read it. Might be a good article. But wow, that headline. Which is most that anyone without a subscription (paywall!) ever sees.
Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray
@zhena gogolia: Adam can probably explain, but Vindman is an Army officer. He’s just leaving the NSC for another assignment. Whether that’s part of normal rotation or not, I have no idea.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Okay, that makes me feel better. But still. This wave of retaliations is not reassuring.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray:
I just hope all the good people can keep their heads down and keep doing good work until we can eject this evil emperor.
Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray
@WaterGirl: You are not.
Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray
@zhena gogolia: As do I. This move isn’t helpful to Ukraine, though.
Juice Box
I thought it was an interesting article. It helped me understand why I prefer EW to BS, even not taking the misogyny and recent history into account. Any Democrat (or quasi-Democrat) will be called a “socialist” by the Rs anyway
I really wished that she hadn’t biffed on M4A. I used to be a big single payer fan, but for the last ten years or so, I’ve decided that universal health care should be the goal and the precise choice of plans is far less important. The European countries with single payer healthcare seem to have more healthcare system problems than the countries with other systems.
Mandalay
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
This. Although the Politico article was surprisingly heavy on detail, it glossed over an important point:
Warren has teams in 31 states, and she has acknowledged problems in Nevada, but that means that there are 30 states without any issues being reported.
The real failing of the article is to provide a context for the extent of the problem. Six people of color on Warren’s campaign reported issues with how their concerns were handled in Nevada, but nobody else has “within her large, 31-state organization“.
And how do I know that? Because it is absolutely certain that Politico would be there like a rat up a drainpipe if there was a hint of discord in any of the other 30 states.
Politico: It’s not our job to provide context. It’s our job to suggest a white woman isn’t up for the presidency.
khead
I’ve been down with Warren for a while. Just going to point out that she has to overcome the fact that no one likes it when Lisa Simpson tells folks they have to eat their vegetables and pay for it too. The entire country wants a free fucking lunch. Not sure how Warren gets around that.
VOR
You know, I had the same thought. But who benefited, at least on the Dem side? Trump saw that he could get through the R primary and the general election by saying nothing more than “I have a great plan, you won’t believe how great it is”. Details are only a problem on the Dem side, where we eat our own. Campaign proposals ought to be seen as aspirations, not concrete actionable proposals. Campaign in poetry, govern in prose.
schrodingers_cat
@Xavier: The current system is not perfect and favors capital over labor but junking the international trade system which was put in place by the United States largely by treaties like GATT (which became the WTO) gives us the United States an advantage over China, Russia etc. We should reform it but retreating from global affairs (military, diplomatic and economic) just gives a free rein to our adversaries.
Chinese and Russian led world order is not going to better than the current status quo, it will be worse.
germy
@Salty Sam:
I never understood that particular scandal. She said she’d been told by family she had some Native American ancestry. She took a DNA test and learned she had some Native American ancestry.
Josie
@Baud:
This is true. She also had to overcome the PTSD of Democrats, who nominated a woman and lost, to their great shock and dismay. This would be a tall order for any woman.
germy
@WaterGirl:
Baud/Bnad 2020
germy
Betty Cracker
@Salty Sam:
Exactly right. She’s proposed legislation and issued policy proposals that directly address the “radical perversion of healthy capitalism,” as you rightly call it.
There’s a debate tonight, God help us. Maybe Warren can break through. I don’t know if she can, though. That douchebag Donny Deutsch was apparently on MSNBC just this morning saying Warren can’t win because she’s “unlikeable” and “strident,” and no one pushed back on that sexist bullshit.
Warren scares people like Deutsch because she would made them .0001% less wealthy, and he and other media douchebags on ALL the networks will do anything they can to stop her, including 24/7 M4A scaremongering when everyone knows she can’t just enact it by fiat so it’s not really relevant.
Salty Sam
Because it was not really a scandal, it is manufactured fauxt-rage…
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic, Duke of Tanqueray:
When I think about Ukraine my blood boils. I hate my fellow citizens who are going about their business, paying no attention to how we’ve abused this country that needs our help, happy as clams as long as their 401(k)s are all right.
zhena gogolia
@Juice Box:
Michael Bennet had a sensible approach based on improving the ACA. But he got no attention.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Mine does too. Also his non-stop demonizing and outright lies about immigrants is so normalized that doesn’t even get a peep from the so called liberal media.
balconesfault
@glory b: Agree with this.
Early on, I think she did attract some 2016 Bernie supporters – but by and large they’ve all gone back to him as the Bernie Bros beat them up over not being pure enough.
But that seeking of Bernie supporters led her into some policy cul de sacs that I think have really hurt her because they departed from her essential message of pragmatism.
Talking about rapidly eliminating private insurance, for example, just scares people. And talking about banning fracking is just plain stupid – ban fracking from public lands, put much stricter regulations on impacts to local water supplies, liability provisions for seismic effects, and create a stiff tax on flaring and fugitive emissions on natural gas in the wellfields, but the unintended consequences from a rapidly implemented ban would be a death knell for whatever party implemented it in the near term.
schrodingers_cat
@glory b: Giving in to bullies never works. Another example of crappy political instincts. That she thought she could win over the cult members.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
she knew she was going to face sexism, but she also seems to think that unpopular ideas will become popular if she calls them big and bold
and she is unfortunately not the only Democrat, candidates and voters, who seems to think winning the primary is more important than winning the general
khead
@Betty Cracker:
Gonna disagree slightly here. It’s not necessarily about sexist. It’s definitely about selfish though. Her plans require raising taxes. I’ll admit it COULD be both – but see my previous comment about a free lunch. Everyone wants one.
Xavier
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not recommending isolationism. But let me quote Keynes who said it better than I:
“I sympathize, therefore, with those who would minimize, rather than with those who would maximize, economic entanglement among nations. Ideas, knowledge, science, hospitality, travel–these are the things which should of their nature be international. But let goods be homespun whenever it is reasonably and conveniently possible, and, above all, let finance be primarily national. Yet, at the same time, those who seek to disembarrass a country of its entanglements should be very slow and wary. It should not be a matter of tearing up roots but of slowly training a plant to grow in a different direction.”
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/interwar/keynes.htm
glory b
@khead: Remember, Lisa Simpson was president right after Trump in an episode of the show.
The writers said they tried to think of the most ridiculous person possible to be president, and they picked him.
NotMax
A candidate should try to distinguish her/himself from the rest of the slate?
Gee, why hasn’t anyone thought of that before?
//
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
I see a whole bunch of people who think the President rules by fiat.
glory b
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah. She talks about fighting, but didn’t fight when it came to the Sanders attack.
I was mad at her when I saw the picture of her with her arm inside his during the Alabama March. He just finished brushing her off on camera!
Z. Mulls
I was listening to NPR reporting the partial Iowa results (when the first batch was put out, the day later). They talked about Buttigeg and Sanders being tied, their organization, their ground game, their differences. Then they talked about how disappointing Biden’s showing was, what it meant for NH, etc. I waited and waited and they did not ONCE even MENTION Warren — at the tie, Bernie and Pete were around 25% each, and Liz Warren was 20%, with 40 per cent of the vote still to come in. And they couldn’t even MENTION that she was 3rd and had a decent showing. Female hosts! On NPR!
I was sitting with a very liberal, young, female friend last week, and she mentioned casually that she was concerned about the Native American stuff, and that Warren hasn’t always been honest. Which is a terrible misreading of her biography. It was very saddening to me how much the superficial media message has sunk in, even with people who would be her natural supporters.
I’m obviously leaning hard to Warren. She has the best organization and the most practical approach to governing. I think that once “middle America” voters have a chance to see her clearly, they will see her more as an Okie girl who grew up hard and learned a lot before heading to Harvard. But I don’t know if we will get to that point.
I think she needs to stay in till Super Tuesday, at least. If Biden fades, there is going to be a realignment of supporters.
germy
The lady who does the voice of Lisa Simpson wasn’t happy with Pompeo invoking her character:
Butter Emails
@balconesfault:
I really don’t think it’s the Bernie Bros who caused them to fall back in line. Everyone credits Warren’s M4A position as bringing her down, but realistically what caused her downfall was rising above Biden briefly in the polls. The flood of negative coverage, including on M4A descended on her and the Billionaires started girding the loins to get into the race personally.
Those attacks drove the Bernie supporters back, because Warren no longer looked like the stronger of the two candidates plus he has the advantage of being the larger middle finger. Moderates fled to other not Biden candidates.
ziggy
I’m not happy with Politico and their pot-stirring, and most campaign stuff makes my eyes glaze over, but I found this interesting. I think I agree with here based on my limited experience. Also a bit more optimistic for 2020.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944
Betty Cracker
@khead: Calling a woman candidate “strident” and “unlikeable” is sexist garbage. Period.
schrodingers_cat
@Xavier: Your @me Keynes quote does not contradict my comment at all. I agree with EW that the capital markets need more regulation.
EW wants to bring back all the troops home, she advocated against the TPP and is too ideologically close to BS and Orange’s isolationism for my liking. YMMV.
khead
@Betty Cracker:
Really? Trump is pretty strident and unlikeable too.
Gravenstone
@Served: I don’t know how anyone who has been paying attention could be remotely naive as to how Congress might behave. As long as Republicans hold any form of power there, it will be obstructionist at a minimum, adversarial at worst.
schrodingers_cat
@glory b: If she won’t stand up for herself. Is she going to stand up for me. Who both BS and the President have given their followers a permission to hate?
Betty Cracker
@khead: So is Bernie Sanders, but Donny Deutsch isn’t calling him that. If you can’t see how some insults land differently on women than men (or mean one thing when applied to [insert minority group here] and another when applied to whites, etc.), I’m afraid I can’t help you.
taumaturgo
@Served:
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: BS can keep his damn finger wagging out of my face. He is rude and shouty. Is this a NYC thing? Because even DeBlasio was shouting and interrupting a lot in the debates he was present.
Baud
Since we’re dissecting Warren’s campaign, I’ll briefly reiterate that I think it was a mistake for her not to directly address the anger of Hillary supporters with respect to how the 2016 general election went down. She wouldn’t have had to change one word of her policy stances to do that successfully, but she left that strategy on the table.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
I have a feeling that’s what lay behind Nancy ripping up the speech, more than anything else.
NotMax
It’s glib and it’s beyond shallow but I do wish Warren would change to a different style of glasses. The ones she is generally seen wearing come across on TV too much as projecting a stereotypical ‘officious spinster librarian tsk-tsking while looking down her nose at you’ look.
khead
@Betty Cracker:
Don’t get mad at me because Donny Douchebag didn’t insult Bernie as much as you would like. All I am saying is that there are quite a bit of folks out there who think Warren is living in economic fantasyland. I don’t think that’s true, but it is a real legit concern – and it’s not about sexism. I’ll leave it up to you to take up the charge against dumbasses on cable being mean to Warren. I’m cool with that. Just please don’t go confusing me with them.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Bloomberg will do it more quietly and subtly.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax:
Oh-oh, you’re going to reap the whirlwind for that comment!
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: I wish Nancy Pelosi could become President. She has the right attitude and policies and knows how to get things done.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Sadly, she’s too old. I also think she’s not really interested in that kind of position. She’s not big on all the pageantry and b.s. (standing for the word so eloquently used by the “President” in the East Room of the White House on national television, not the senator from VT).
I wish Schiff could be unilaterally declared president right this minute. But I don’t think he’s interested either.
schrodingers_cat
@NotMax: Also she needs a better wardrobe. She is skinny, fit and tall. Yet her wardrobe does her no favors. It is boring. She dresses and speaks like a woman in the academia. Not that there is anything wrong with it but not a winning look for a presidential candidate unfortunately. You can all jump on me for being superficial but we do judge people based on what they wear. We all do.
JMG
There is no such thing as a “winning look” for a Presidential candidate. The incumbent’s “look” is a bad rug, spray-on orange tan and ties that go down to his ankles.
schrodingers_cat
@JMG: Oh I agree. He is unpopular and barely won and his wardrobe and makeup is an object of ridicule. Unlike many other factors its something the candidate controls. And looking your best is all a part of putting your best foot forward. They are easy points to score.
YMMV.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
I like the way Harris dresses.
Betty Cracker
@khead: I’m not mad at you; I’m pushing back on your comment that questioned whether or not calling a woman candidate “strident” and “unlikeable” is sexist. It is. Period. Full stop. End of story.
Also, I don’t want Deutsch to insult Sanders more — what I want is for rich, entitled, sexist media creeps like Deutsch to have a less prominent role in shaping political narratives. But failing that, I wish people of good will who hear the tales he’s spinning would recognize how insidious it is. Especially since this is the second fucking election cycle in which people like Deutsch are peddling sexist narratives against a female Democratic candidate. THAT’S what I’m mad about.
As for people who think Warren is “living in an economic fantasy land,” sure, I’m well aware they exist, especially since they exist right here on this blog, and they’re entitled to their opinions. Either Warren will break through or she won’t. I’ll vote for the Democratic nominee who eventually does. Everyone should.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: Me too. Her smile is infectious.
NotMax
@JMG
We may not like it, we may rightfully decry it, but different rules continue to apply when it comes to women.
schrodingers_cat
@NotMax: Yep show me an elected woman who is disheveled, wears rumpled clothes and doesn’t comb her hair.
sherparick
This is a reminder that you won’t see on any cable news shows are read in NYT, WaPo, or Political about what is at stake in the election. If you are poor and Hispanic/Asian in this country, you are already living in an authoritarian regime that can take you and throw you into a camp at any time. Also, if you are just Black.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/02/how-many-hidden-thresholds-of-soft-authoritarianism-have-we-already-crossed
Mandalay
@NotMax: Randy Rainbow has a solution for that problem:
dww44
@Betty Cracker: I’ve never thought Warren was living in economic fantasy land. If one has really listened to her her proposals seem to me to be actually doable.
What I most appreciate about Warren is her decisiveness and clarity about what’s right and what’s wrong. She’s the first politician that I recollect who, upon reading the Mueller Report, came out and called for impeachment. IMO, I believe that she will be the best executive among all the candidates, including Bloomberg.
Aardvark Cheeselog
Just dropping by to say, it’s an indictment of our discourse that she is somehow presented any other way.
Jay
Betty Cracker
@dww44: I agree, but her glasses are school-marmish, and her wardrobe choices are unexciting, so…
Chyron HR
@taumaturgo:
All things wrong with America are the fault of a stupid lazy ni**er! Bernie says it, so it must be true!
Baud
Warren should smile more.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jesus, the Berniebot is telling us Obama lost the West Virginia legislature
Neldob
Warren pushed through the CFPB which was a big deal for me. They were the ones that brought WF to heel I believe.
Martin
@glory b: I agree. Warren is in many ways the most opposite of Bernie in the field, but she doesn’t highlight that. So the media tends to lump her in as a kind of socialist-lite, when she’s really a committed capitalist. The problem has become we don’t even recognize capitalism any more thanks to the GOP distorting this kind of oligarchy/corporatism and calling it capitalism for so long, so it’s easy for the public to accept that narrative, and she hasn’t found a way to break through it, mainly because the capitalism=bad association is reflexive among young people.
I just don’t know how she threads that needle.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Neldob:
What is WF?
kindness
Super Tuesday will tell us where everyone really stands. Till then it’s just a pissing contest.
Martin
@schrodingers_cat: And appears perpetually angry and yells at you constantly.
schrodingers_cat
Chris Johnson: @Betty Cracker: So unless we can offer fulsome praise we should just shut up?
schrodingers_cat
@Martin: Don’t put words in my mouth I never said that.
Crashman06
@Martin: Yes, this. My dad, who’s voted Republican as long as I can remember, deeply detests Trump and desperately wants him out of office but he lumps Warren in together with Bernie as “socialists” and claims he’ll consider abstaining or voting third party if either of them are the nominees. It’s concerning to me because his disgust for the current president seems otherwise so limitless.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What else are they going to do? Talk about their victories in places that aren’t already deep blue? That would be a pretty short conversation.
Jay
@schrodingers_cat:
TPP sucked dog ass, which is why it’s dead.
Once the US pulled out of what was “their” trade deal, everybody else very quickly made a deal, because all of a sudden, for some strange reason, the deal was “fair” to everybody, including labour and the environment.
CPATPP is a great trade deal that China will join long before the US does.
It’s very much a “tell” as to who is controlling the narrative when being against TPP is raised as a negative about Warren.
schrodingers_cat
@Steeplejack (phone): Wells Fargo, I think.
theturtlemoves
It is awfully convenient that the masters of the universe seem to be deathly afraid of Warren taking their money but are not crying on TV about how Bernie is going to, in spite of the fact that his wealth tax was, as I recall, more aggressive. So, a fairly calm professorial woman talking about a wealth tax is shrill but a shouty old fart isn’t? Yeah, that’s sexist as hell.
Chris Johnson
@Chris Johnson: Actually hang on: Balloon Juice deals with this sort of thing, sort of. Not my place: anyone wanting to delete parent comment who can do that, go for it. I too quickly assume people don’t see what’s happening (even after the Mueller report and our own experiences underscore it)
tam1MI
The Village did the exact same fucking thing to Kamala Harris.
khead
@Martin:
This. We don’t do subtlety or shades of gray anymore in this country.
Citizen Alan
@khead:
Worse, the entire country wants a free lunch consisting entirely of rich desserts that are somehow zero calorie.
Jay
@Martin:
Warren wants to fix Capitalism.
Bernie wants to burn it down.
The US MSM loves the kaikistocracy that late stage Capitalism has become.
NotMax
@Martin
A major, dragging weight on the whole universe of political discourse and coverage in the U.S. is that if it cannot fit on a bumper sticker it is virtually ignored.
Dunno what an effective, lasting counter to that is.
Citizen Alan
@germy:
They believe that she somehow used her “fake Native American” status to get a fancy Harvard job that she wasn’t entitled to. Because apparently, Harvard was reserving that job as a Bankruptcy Professor as a minority set-aside until she came in and stole or something.
Jay
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: No, but like everyone else who opines on an occasionally argumentative political blog, you should maybe expect that people will disagree with and make comments in response to your comments. That’s my understanding of how it works, anyway.
schrodingers_cat
EW is running in the primaries like a typical MA politician. You run to the left and win the primary. Because the primary is the real election in the Common Wealth for many if not most positions. For example in 2018 many Ds ran uncontested for statewide and local seats. Unfortunately for us that is not representative of the country.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Fair enough but CJ was arguing that criticizing primary candidates is a no-no because Russia.
Martin
@Xavier: That’s really not true, though. We’ve lifted more people out of poverty in the last 10 years than the previous 100, and that because of globalism.
The challenge it introduces – which can also exist without globalism – is when an economy changes faster than the workers in the economy can adapt. That’s happened multiple times in the US before globalism, once contributing to a war, and is certainly happening now.
For all Trumps efforts with tariffs to slow the process down, it’s actually sped up. For instance the energy sector is not in turmoil because of China – they’re among the nations still using coal. It’s in turmoil because of California and other parts of the nation that are going full-bore into renewables. Has any part of the US economy outside of California adapted to that? Why aren’t workers in Ohio making solar panels and wind turbines?
It has much more to do with US industry believing they can lobby their way out of changes to the economy than adapting to them. Just look at the utter shitshow that is the fuel mileage standard battle with the EPA and where the US automakers are positioned relative to global automakers. California’s mileage standards are comparable to the EU as well as Chinas. So why are automakers rejecting 20% of the US market, plus a market twice the size of the US market, plus another market twice the size of the US market? If they sided with where the majority of the global market is going they could be exporting vehicles from Ohio rather than closing plants. That’s what BMW is doing.
Jay
Immanentize
@kindness: agree. It’s all dust in the wind until mid March.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: I actually agree with Chris.
MM was dreadful in how he dealt with you last week, but enough with the constantly bashing Elizabeth Warren. (I know he was getting after you about bashing Bernie. Which I have no problem with because — leap year Democrat. And thank you for that.)
But: Do you want to be left with Bernie or Bloomberg? Or Mayor Pete? Why can’t we have a well-qualified woman in the mix too?
You bash her enough that I find it really tiresome. There are candidates I find underwhelming, but I don’t feel the need to dump on them, constantly. Better to say something good, or just listen to what others have to share.
Martin
@theturtlemoves: I think it also speaks to their relative competencies. Part of what I dislike about Bernies policies is that I don’t think Bernie has the ability to implement them. He’s a terrible coalition builder. But Warren is a great coalition builder. She’ll actually get some of her agenda implemented and probably will get the rest implemented at least in part. So even if her policies are more modest, their likelihood of implementation is much higher, making her more of a threat.
Immanentize
@NotMax: Chomsky once said something like, I don’t go on TV shows because there really is no value in an idea that only gets two minutes to discuss.
Leto
@Jay: Just wanted to respond to this by saying that people who are saying, “Sure Vindman is a LTC, he’s just being “reassigned” to the Pentagon, don’t worry” don’t know what they’re talking about. Being “reassigned” to the Pentagon like he is (he was fired) is a death blow for any officer’s career. It’s the polite way of them saying, “File for retirement. You’re never going to be promoted.” (Personally seen this with a few O5/6s) If he has already has 22 years in, he has one more chance to make it. But as long as Trumpov is sitting in office, he realistically has no chance.
Some quick reading material about officer promotions: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Officer_Personnel_Management_Act
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: I definitely do not subscribe to the theory that candidates can’t be criticized! :-) I also think some of us see Russians in our cornflakes, and that makes us too skittish.
@Leto: I’m sure you’re correct in general, but is there perhaps hope that once Trump is out of office, Lt. Col. Vindman’s career can get back on track since it was a blatantly political hit job?
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: My disagreements with EW are substantive except perhaps agreeing with NotMax and comments about her wardrobe.
I have also pointed out where I agree with her. She is lagging in polls so I am not the only D that has these concerns. I disagree that I was as you say “dumping” on her.
I will vote for her without any reservations if she is the nominee something I can’t say about BS. But I have concerns and the primaries are precisely the time to air those.
terry chay
Warren had a very strong showing in Iowa and you people are acting like her campaign is trash. ?
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Fair enough.
I am guessing she is lagging in polls because people might doubt a woman’s ability to win. Which is why I think we should all push back WRT Hillary’s 3 million plus vote margin. Truth is truth.
Elizabelle
@terry chay: Not all of us, terry. She’s got some serious support here.
And Iowa was a clusterfuck. And an unrepresentative state.
Jay
@Betty Cracker:
Dumph has/is “filling” through appointments and “loyalty tests” the US Civil Service with Deplorables.
There will not be any Purge or Truth and Reconciliation Commitee post Dumph. The rodents will continue to ruin the house from the inside.
Careers/lives that have been ruined/are being ruined will not be repaired.
GBVA
@Chyron HR:
I don’t know why this shit is allowed to go on in here but it shouldn’t be. I know the overwhelmingly white constituency represented by this comment section has somehow come to the consensus that Bernie is a crabby old racist, and I guess believe what you want to believe. But ascribing this hateful bullshit to the candidate overwhelmingly preferred by the only nonwhite Americans who’ve actually voted so far in this primary season is an incredibly bad look, and one almost certain to be interpreted by said nonwhite voters as in enormously bad faith. Also stop using the n-word sarcastically to call other people racists. It’s fucking racist. I don’t care about the fucking stars.
Elizabelle
@schrodingers_cat: Thinking more about this: if our very sad experience with Hillary taught us anything, it is that even a strong candidate cannot withstand a constant barrage of negative criticism, even if a lot of it is nonsense. It’s out there. You swim, you swim, you swim, you swim and eventually the wave just overtakes you.
I honestly don’t know what the benefit is in constantly tearing down someone that one professes one will eventually support. Really?
You mentioned upthread that you, as an immigrant, do not think Elizabeth Warren will fight for you.
Really? I’m serious. I mean, can that fucker do ANYTHING right?
glory b
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, yeah, because he’s black, duh.
Chris Johnson
@Betty Cracker: I see that in myself, don’t mind admitting it. Events have made me full-on ‘Red Dawn’ and I do see Russians in my cornflakes, and I try to shut up about it more often than not.
The thing is, Russians ARE in our social media and not all of them are stupid obvious idiots, and the value of moles is really high, and the gloves are off. But I have no way of realistically spotting them other than by message (or, yeah, really CRAP DIALECT which also shows that it’s a known tactic to try and adopt an ‘uncriticizable’ persona), and half the trick is getting that message re-amplified by American voices.
These are the messages Russia needs to push, so that’s what makes me suspicious. (and I am incredibly suspicious of any claim that America is racist and sexist after how hard it was to beat Obama and Hillary) I keep saying governing decently is not THAT hard, and it’s not. Beating Russia, beating Trump, are likewise not that hard. That’s why the narrative is ‘OMG it’s so hard’, because it’s a propaganda war and it’s already going all out, 24/7, everywhere.
I’m sorry for the times I lose patience and start accusing folks of being working-Putin’s trolls. I’m not sorry at all for calling out the existence of that sort of thing, because it’s central to Russia’s whole strategy and it’s documented. (I would add that Putin’s methods are to arm and fire up all the factions at once, against each other, so it’s possible for both the Berniebros and the most passionate antiBerniebros to be Russian-directed: in fact, that’s what happened.)
We don’t have to lose control of our process. We’re just doing it during wartime and the process (in every respect) is being attacked. Plain stubborn American determination to do some kind of right thing, can win out in the long run.
Steeplejack (phone)
@schrodingers_cat:
Thanks.
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
In a lot of ways those big corps are indicative of the problems that face a major industrialized nation. They run for the most part unchecked and change the structure of the economy. And yes they provide jobs but the reality of lots of those jobs and the structure of the companies themselves change how we live and how we focus our energy, on say infrastructure repair and replacement or on equality.
At the end of the day it changes the way we govern and the way we respond to threats to our lives that everyone has. An example would be the opioid crisis. It’s not illegal imported drugs, it’s a problem of not regulating the actions of big corps looking to become wealthier, and of not paying people or providing reasonable healthcare to them. And good government is necessary for those controls to happen and that is what the republicans have been fighting for the last 75 yrs. One of the things that Regan was know for – breaking the air traffic controllers union. It was not the start of their war against any regulation, of getting out of the way of any way to make money, but that’s part of what that did. It shouldn’t be any surprise that republican administrations have been the worst for the countries economy, every single time in the last 100 yrs, but that’s because they want to make all the money and don’t care about anything else.
trump is their god, because he doesn’t give a fuck about anything but his personal gain. And will do/say amazingly stupid things when anyone gets in his way in the slightest.
WaterGirl
@Leto: Ah. It’s like being assigned to a special project in the academic world. Kiss of death. Thank you
Mandalay
@Elizabelle:
That’s fine, and well said, but I don’t see you making the same argument about (say) Bloomberg or Sanders.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Baud: Would have been nice if she hadn’t agreed with the bullshit Donna Brazile said about the 2016 primaries being “rigged” against Bernie. I am a Warren supporter but that pissed me right off. Warren is now getting slammed with some of the same crap that got thrown at Hillary. This is my shocked face /s
I like a lot of what Warren has to say but falling for the M4A bait was a huge miss-step.
Another Scott
Haven’t read all the comments yet.
I like Warren. I agree that the buzz about her seems to have decreased greatly.
I assume and hope that she will do well in the debate tonight. I expect her to become more compelling as the field shrinks.
An example of the coverage bias MM mentioned is in this Warning – Politico piece. Warren and Biden each had 1 hour town halls in NH. Most of the piece is about Biden…
Cheers,
Scott.
Elizabelle
@Mandalay: I think Bernie Sanders is unelectable. Do you see Hugh Hewitt begging Republicans to vote for Elizabeth Warren or Joe Biden in the South Carolina primary? Neither do I. Republicans are not the only ones who think Trump can defeat Bernie.
WRT Bloomberg, just watching and waiting.
OldDave
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Including the current occupant of the White House, sadly.
Baud
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: The “rigged” thing was incredible offensive, but it was over two years ago, and she hasn’t repeated it or built a movement based on that lie. I’m willing to look past it.
GBVA
@Elizabelle: I mean, Democrats were eager to face Trump in 2016. Republicans wanted to go toe-to-toe with Obama instead of Hillary in ’08. We are, all of us, not historically all that good at picking our opponents.
terry chay
@Elizabelle: it is true that Iowa is unrepresentative, but looking at the numbers, it is the Biden and Sanders campaigns that should be worried.
Elizabelle
@GBVA: I don’t feel like you and I lived through the same 2008. Curious, that.
Davis X. Machina
How many times has she called on us to expropriate the expropriators?
Not. Even. Once.
How can I vote for a neoliberal like that
GBVA
@Elizabelle:
https://www.usnews.com/news/campaign-2008/articles/2008/05/02/gop-prefers-to-face-obama-rather-than-clinton
I mean I remember it pretty vividly and it made sense. Republicans projected their deep and abiding racism onto the rest of the country and assumed that a black man with a funny name would be easy pickings for their propaganda machine.
schrodingers_cat
@Elizabelle: I don’t trust her. I have given reasons why in the comments above. I have had the misfortune of meeting women like her who talk a good game but are not reliable allies and never have your back.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Baud: So am I, I was for Kamala Harris until she dropped out, but was Warren-curious even then. I just find it funny that she seems surprised that she is getting some of the same treatment, from the press and from some Bernie-leaning people that HIllary got in 2015/2016.
Xavier
@Martin: That “we” in your first sentence is doing an awful lot of work. I’ll go back to Keynes for a counterargument:
Advisable domestic policies might often be easier to compass, if the phenomenon known as “the flight of capital” could be ruled out. The divorce between ownership and the real responsibility of management is serious within a country, when, as a result of joint stock enterprise, ownership is broken up among innumerable individuals who buy their interest to-day and sell it to-morrow and lack altogether both knowledge and responsibility towards what they momentarily own. But when the same principle is applied internationally, it is, in times of stress, intolerable–I am irresponsible towards what I own and those who operate what I own are irresponsible towards me. There may be some financial calculation which shows it to be advantageous that my savings should be invested in whatever quarter of the habitable globe shows the greatest marginal efficiency of capital or the highest rate of interest. But experience is accumulating that remoteness between ownership and operation is an evil in the relations among men, likely or certain in the long run to set up strains and enmities which will bring to nought the financial calculation.
Same citation: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/interwar/keynes.htm
Tarweed
@glory b: I agree, by seeming to be on Sander’s “team”, Warren failed to distinguish her own brand and her own capabilities. I kind of see her needing to “grow into” her leadership role find that handle like Nancy Pelosi has of being fierce and direct and astute but not wasting time or energy on any sort of foolishness. If you’re in an emergency act like it.
schrodingers_cat
Elaborating and clarifying #143
I don’t think EW is a bad sort but I also don’t think that she has the NP’s nerves of steel. She doesn’t have great political instincts. So when she runs into political trouble immigrant issues will probably get a short shrift. Since she is trying hard to win over left wing populist base.
She doesn’t inspire my confidence. YMMV.
Ruckus
@theturtlemoves:
They are pretty sure that the crusty, shouty old fart is not going to be the next president. Look above you at #97. If the conservatives who likely voted trump in office will only vote to elect someone who is a very conservative dem or better yet a republican light then we will never get out of this liberalism is the end of the world bullshit. We will always be stuck either in the mushy middle or in the trump end of the spectrum. None of the dem candidates except BS are all that far left. Warren actually isn’t she just sounds like it and is portrayed that way by the MSM, which is all owned by conservatives of one stripe or another. And that is because she wants government to actually work. To do it’s job fairly and equitably. To spend our money reasonably rather than as a country that spends a massive portion on warfare, rather than welfare. And I’m using those two words specifically because of the first half of each, war and well.
Ruckus
@Martin:
You need to come to my end of CA. On my walks out and about and to work I see that there are almost more newish to new pickup trucks, big tires, often 4×4 being driven about town with a single occupant. I don’t live in the sticks I live in the eastern end of the San Gabriel Valley. Vehicles are mostly what are now termed compacts or full sized pickups. Electric is rather rare. Gas is typical socal prices. And I see a lot of newish/new pickups with full replacement suspensions, jacked up a lot of inches, we are talking $40-70K in truck. CA is not all solar panels and Teslas.
Neldob
@Steeplejack (phone): wells fargo
Neldob
@Martin: Yep.
Leto
@Betty Cracker: I’d like to say yes, but honestly it’s a no. Trumpov is in office for another year, he’ll have this firing as the most current OPR (Officer Performance Report) for the promotion board to see, and the DoD/Army Sec will not push back on Trumpov if push comes to shove. He will have a good pension, good retirement benefits, and he will have his integrity/honor. And that last one is no small thing.
@WaterGirl: Exactly.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Elizabelle:
Shorter Elizabelle: mix was terrible for criticizing you for bashing Bernie. Now stop bashing Warren.
No contradiction there, nope.
Mandalay
@GBVA:
Well said. It’s ironic that in a thread where folks are discussing Russian trolling that post would be a classic example, yet you were the only one here to call out that vile post.
Right. I think some people are just dying to use the word even when it isn’t remotely relevant to the discussion, and so they dress it up with sarcasm and asterisks. Both spineless and racist.
Villago Delenda Est
@NotMax: The Village awaits you, particularly NPR. That’s right out of their book of tut-tuts.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jay: What will be needed is a truth and retribution commission.
No quarter for MAGAts.
NotMax
@Villago Delenda Est
Bent over backwards to preface it as being superficial, yet denying such things as that (a) exist and (b) can produce an affect surpassing their triviality is intentionally donning blinders.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: When I was in my twenties, I had a friend who thought makeup was bullshit but she was a waitress and when she wore makeup her tips literally DOUBLED.
So she wore the makeup when she waitressed but she didn’t do it because she liked it.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
BTW, did you happen to see this, about additional FYWP/site eccentricity?
WaterGirl
@NotMax: Was it the “shift-enter” spacing looks one way while you are creating but effectively turns into “enter” after the comment is posted?
If so, if you edit the existing comment, does it appear during edit with the look of shift-enter or enter?
NotMax
@WaterGirl
I don’t have the edit function (my choice). And I just use a single Enter for single spacing as I have always done, which shows up in the published comment as single spacing EXCEPT for the final line.
WaterGirl
@NotMax: So you can type:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
and you get the spacing you want between everything except 6 and 7?
NotMax
@WaterGirl
Testing.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
NotMax
@WaterGirl
As #163 above shows, the answer is yes.
If you look at J R in WV’s comment slightly above the one I linked to earlier, same thing happens to him both prior to and after using edit.