Last night’s was the first debate I watched this cycle. I really wanted to wait until the field was winnowed down to those who could actually win. Here are a few thoughts:
David Muir, who did the bulk of the questioning, was terrible and foreshadowing of the garbage Democrats are going to have to wade through this Fall. His foreign policy (i.e., for him, war) questions were especially awful. They could all be summed up as “are you wimpy Democrats going to actually give me some wars or not?” I watched the debate on ABC’s streaming service, and it was all house ads. One ad I saw multiple times was David Muir riding in a Blackhawk, David Muir putting on his bulletproof vest — basically, studly David Muir looking studly. You’d think he was a special ops soldier, instead of a guy anchoring a newscast that exists only to sell hemorrhoid cream and diabetes test strips to old people. The good news is all of the major candidates were able to turn his questions around and give answers that weren’t dodges, but didn’t buy into his villager framing.
Though she had more time at the end, the moderators called on Yang and Steyer more that Warren in the early going. She was good as always. Her passion when she looks into the camera and talks about the issues is just riveting, to me. She’s also very good on her feet and unruffled. My only critique, is mild – her answers are a little information-dense, but they got better later. I wish she would catch on.
Pete was uneven. He had some platitudinous, fluffy answers. But he also did really well on a couple, like the ones about war and his defense of Biden. I heard one answer that really concerned me – it was to Linsey Davis’ question about why South Bend had an increase in arrests of people of color under Pete’s leadership. His first answer was a dodge, but since she’s apparently a real journalist, she drilled him again. Then, he went into an explanation of how terrible some of the gang infested neighborhoods in South Bend (pop 100K, home of Notre Dame, really?) are, so as part of his law enforcement strategy, those neighborhoods were targeted for more enforcement. I heard this as: we rousted young black men and hung bullshit weed charges around their necks. I don’t think that answer is getting full coverage, but I can’t imagine he gained any votes in the black community last night, and that’s a real problem for him as a candidate.
Amy Klobuchar is a really good debater, clearly the best on the stage last night. She’s also tough, and you can tell she hates Pete. He might remind her of the young full-of-shit staffers that she’s crushed under the heel of her sensible pumps over the years, without even getting her perfect haircut mussed up. Anyway, she went at him, hard, a couple of times. Towards the end she just basically took over from Steyer, who was blowing hard on race, and gave a really touching replay of her story coming up from nothing in Minnesota. There was a lot of emotion in that response, which is a great balance to the toughness she exhibited earlier. She’s the full meal deal. I think if she were the candidate moderates coalesced around, she would be very effective.
Biden was a little word-salady, as usual, but overall he did fine. There were some flashes of Joe, the guy underneath that everyone loves. His praise of Vindman, and having the audience stand up to honor him, was a great example of what I mean. I think fighting for his political life agrees with him.
Bernie was Bernie. As he was walking on, I noticed that he was wearing the uniform of every business traveler in the 80’s – grey poly/wool blend pants, a blue sportcoat, cheap shirt and tie. He probably bought it off the rack at the JC Penney in Burlington, and before the debate I can see him telling someone “these clothes are perfectly fine, they still have a lot of life in them.” He’s such a total character, and it’s part of what makes him hard to touch. He is shouty and pointy, but I just can’t imagine Klobuchar trying the same kind of attack on him that she did with Pete. I don’t think anyone did any real damage to him, and the response to the question of whether anyone likes him brought out good responses from Biden and Amy, and were a plus for him.
I had heard that Yang has a sense of humor and is pretty good at the debates. He seemed nervous and maybe a little deflated. He had to lay off staff this week, so I think maybe this thing just got real for him. I wasn’t impressed, and I came in expecting more from him.
Steyer could have spent his money better, but rich people wasting money is apparently what our politics have come to.
I think we get lost in the weeds of the fighting between the different candidates, but to me, the unity question at the start made everyone look good, there was no nasty infighting (Klobuchar landed a couple of punches on Pete, but they were all fair game), and it didn’t spend more than a few minutes on the intricacies of health care policy. Overall, a good night for Democrats. Any of the major candidates could beat Trump.
One more thing: A couple candidates mentioned “debating Trump”. Not gonna happen, in my opinion. Trump doesn’t need debates – they’re a risk – so he just won’t do it. He has Fox and Facebook on his side, the networks will all cover his Nuremberg rallies, and his Twitter feed will drive election coverage.
debbie
Wasn’t this also Obama’s problem in the beginning? It’s a better problem to have than other problems.
MattF
Agree about Trump blowing off debating Democrats. Why would he do that? Geniuses don’t debate.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@debbie: Yes, both law profs, both used to packing in a lot of information into answers for law students.
Klobuchar, a prosecutor, is used to making arguments in a way the jury could understand, and it shows.
Both are excellent candidates, it’s just interesting to see their different strengths and how that flows from their backgrounds.
debbie
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
Whoever ends up as the candidate will have my vote, but I’m really interested in seeing how they adjust and pivot from primaries to general. Which of course leaves BS out. He gets the nomination and we might as well stop trying.
Jeffro
Agree that trumpov will do rallies and Fox call-ins in lieu of debating.
why not? Let’s call it the (Stephanie) Grisham strategy.
germy
Yes, that was my reaction as well. Drumpf will agree to debate only if it’s hosted by Fox News and moderated by Hannity.
Betty Cracker
I scoffed at first, but I’m coming around to the idea that Trump won’t debate the D nominee. He’s already laying the groundwork by whining about unfair moderators, etc. If he does dodge the debates, I hope some benevolent billionaire will run nonstop Chicken Trump ads.
I thought Klobuchar won this debate and the last one too, but I doubt it will be enough. Was hoping for a stronger showing from Warren. She did okay, but she was a bit stump-speechy in places, and she didn’t get the time she deserved, partly because Steyer and Yang are inexplicably still wasting everyone’s time.
Biden’s “clap for Vindman” moment was good, but he was shouty throughout in a way I found annoying. Like some staffer coached him to display “fire in the belly” and pointed out how Sanders’ shoutiness seems to work, so Biden yelled answers he would have normally delivered in a conversational tone. It fit for the Vindman moment but not anodyne policy pronouncements.
Scout211
Trump’s people have already signaled that he won’t debate unless the process is “fair.” It will be interesting to watch how the networks respond to that. Will they bend over backward to coddle him, turning each “debate” into a typical Trump rally? Will they nix all debates? Will they let the Dem debate an empty chair?
I am okay at this point in time with nixing the debates. They really aren’t as valuable as they used to be in the past. But I would not be okay with bending the format to fit what Trump needs. That would be a travesty.
So that’s probably what will happen. Sigh.
Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine
Buh-dee, yooziz speaking to a blogfull of hemorrhoid cream and diabetes test strips subscribe & savers.
The Dark Avenger
I’m not in favor of the staple thrower, as one abusive person as President is enough for this century.
germy
A truly fair debate process would be hosted by the League of Women Voters.
Scout211
Mail in ballots have arrived in California. There are 20 names on the ballot for the Dem nomination. There are several names I have never heard of and it appears, all of the candidates who have already dropped out. What?
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Scout211: I think the most likely outcome is no debates, but it’s possible that it will be a “save Trumps feefees debate” which might be worse for the Democrat.
JMG
Trump knows he got clobbered in the 2016 debates. But that must be balanced against his deep love of being on TV and his absolute inability to ignore being called chicken by the Democrats. It’s practical politics vs. So far in this presidency, id is undefeated.
zhena gogolia
ola, izzat yew?
Dennis Croskey
I did enjoy Steyer’s “Can we drop the endless repetition of the same old talking points on healthcare, and figure out how we’re going to beat Trump?” rant. Should have been said by somebody three debates ago.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
All good people everywhere will regale him with cries of “Pussy!”
Citizen_X
@Betty Cracker: “Afraid to go to Vietnam. Afraid to debate his opponents. And most damning of all, afraid to testify under oath in his own impeachment trial.”
Yeah, that could get his goat.
Mai naem mobile
@Betty Cracker: if he refuses to debate we should crowdfund or have the Dems pay for 30 mins or an hour of Alec Baldwin playing Trumpov vs the real Dem candidate .
I think he will either be shamed into debating or his numbers will be bad enough that he will risk a debate . The networks are not going to want to give up the eyeballs of a Trumpov debate .
Dorothy A. Winsor
Thanks for the useful summary.
Spanky
@zhena gogolia: Nah, just some kid who got bored with calling stores and asking if they had Prince Albert in a can.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Dennis Croskey: To be fair, you’re right about that. It annoys me that he bought his way onto that stage. He (and Yang) are completely unqualified. Pete is a grizzled old pol compared to them.
RandomMonster
I think Democrats could still run a live debate, only inserting video clips of Trump’s worst statements (who am I kidding, they’re all bad) as his responses to questions.
Spanky
@Mai naem mobile: SNL would kill for that as a cold opening. They could make it be the whole show, but NBC wouldn’t allow it.
delk
Don’t worry, I’m sure Barr will come to the rescue with an excuse for trump to pass on debating.
Jinchi
I’d be happy if there are no one-on-one debates with Trump. The man is vile. On any given day his opponent should simply pick a topic (corruption, treason, violence against women, putting children in cages) sit down for interviews with local newspeople and simply hammer the point home all day long. Then start on the next issue on day 2. There is no value to standing on a debate stage, pretending to listen respectfully to his lies or react to his childish taunts.
Jinchi
@Mai naem mobile: Trump will never be shamed, but he could easily be humiliated. A smart opponent should be able to have him melting down on a daily basis.
Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine
In case you missed it, the absolute bestest performance of the night occured post-debate:
https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/1226006644225650689
dimmsdale
I haven’t even articulated my preferences out loud, until now. Watching the collected sound-bites since the start of the primaries, I’m stunned that Elizabeth Warren isn’t everyone’s runaway favorite. She’s been doing the work, evolving those “plans”, for years, starting with the CFPB, and can talk about her positions (and handle tough questions) with aplomb, passion, and a visceral drive that carries (at least to me). She’s been evolving her thinking about what the country needs while Joe was still waffling over whether to run or not, and “Mayor Pete” was still trying to figure out who the hell he even IS, to get elected (sorry, the Presidency is not a beginner’s job, and that’s what he is). Feel free to disagree, and my mind is not closed to anyone right now.
I’m fine with any of them against the talking anus, however. He will NEVER debate. He will release carefully edited bites that make the most of his telegenic gifts (like it or not, he’s a visually and energetically compelling presence on a subconscious level, and THAT is one of the criteria I think we need in a Dem nominee almost above anything else).
Ultimately, whether the chosen candidate reflects all my pet issues with 100% accuracy doesn’t matter a whit. (I don’t care for stapler-throwers either, but the time when I could afford to discount Klobuchar for that is done & gone.)
So here’s a question I’m curious about. Which of the candidates, last night, seemed to have the biggest “presence” / magnetism on stage? Leaving “positions,” language, and rhetoric aside, which of them made the biggest overall impact? Did any of them leave you going “Wow, THAT was impressive!”
germy
@Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine: He imitates Bernie’s accent and seems very agitated. Why is he still on TV?
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine:
Steve M has a good post on that, and the issue with “liberal” media in general.
Jinchi
@Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine: I’ve always known Chris Matthews was a hothead, but that was disturbing.
Mai naem mobile
I haven’t bothered turning into a debate in a while ..I listened not watched it yesterday. They all did fine except for Yang who needs to drop out. He is just out of his depth . Even Bernie who I can’t stand . Nobody had a horrible night . I think it’s the media’s decision to make AK the flavor of the next few days and thankfully for her she had a solid performance. .
Spanky
@Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine: Wow. Looks like Chris Matthews should be getting some of Trump’s drugs.
Josie
“He might remind her of the young full-of-shit staffers that she’s crushed under the heel of her sensible pumps over the years, without even getting her perfect haircut mussed up.”
Loved this description of Amy, MM. It’s one of the things I like about her. I can just imagine the misogyny she has waded through over the years. I wish her chances were better.
germy
@download my app in the app store mistermix: Matthews is the guy who thought it was great to have the racist Andrew Sullivan on his show week after week.
Another Scott
Good summary, MM. I enjoyed CommieGirl1’s liveblog as well:
Yup.
I don’t know why Yang is in it. I assume his support will mostly go to ex-Mayor Pete.
I don’t know why Steyer is in it. I assume his support will mostly go to ex-Mayor Mike. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Bloomberg doesn’t make the Nevada debate. Then what?
I don’t see Amy having a breakout. She seems to me to be campaigning for the HeartLand™ and (almost) against the rest of the country. I don’t see why people in, say, California, would find that appealing. She’s great at knifing the lightweights, and ex-Mayor Pete needs to have a response other than running out the clock with word salads (the SB arrests question) when someone lops an arm off. I assume her support will split. Those “moderates uber alles” will probably mostly go to ex-Mayor Pete and/or Uncle Joe. Those who really want a woman will probably mostly go to SP Warren. Those who buy the “I like Bernie” shtick will potentially go to him.
Ex-Mayor Pete showed that he has a glass jaw and feet of clay. He does not have a response when he’s sharply questioned or challenged on his statements about other candidates. If he continues to have significant support outside the south (I can’t see him doing well in SC), then he will be subject to more intense criticism. I assume his support will split among those remaining.
Someone pointed out that Biden’s support was around 50% before he announced and has done almost nothing but decline as time has gone on. He’s had trouble with fundraising as well, even with happily taking money from PACs and the like. He’s got a compelling story about what he’s done in the past, and how he can return the country to a better time, but as Adam points out, there’s no going back. What’s Joe’s path forward for the country? And his harping on OMG it would COST A BAZILLION GIGANTIC SCARY NUMBER!!!11 when talking about other’s health care plans is off-putting to me. A BAZILLION GIGANTIC SCARY NUMBER!!!11 is going to be spent anyhow – the question is, what we get going forward and how to bend the cost curve and wring the excesses out of the system. Feeding GOP memes isn’t a good look. I see his support splitting roughly similarly to Amy’s.
Agreed, Bernie is Bernie. I’m suspicious of continued dark money feeding his campaign. (OurRevolution donates almost nothing officially (according to OpenSecrets) to him or any other candidates.) Unless his health takes another turn for the worse, I assume he’ll be in it until the Convention. Grr…
SP Warren did well. The total time was less than the leaders, but she wasn’t able to contribute to many of the questions. Her voice was bothering her, and I’m sure that contributed to some people being off-put by her “performance”. She had good, sensible, well-rehearsed answers. Unfortunately, the press looks for “NEW!” at these things, so she isn’t getting any increased coverage. If she drops out, who gets her support? Dunno. It depends on who’s left.
Bloomberg might end up being a non-issue if he can’t make the Nevada debate.
In other words, it’s still early. We’ll see what happens.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Frankensteinbeck
Trump will debate. He’ll do it for two reasons. First, if he starts seriously threatening not to, cable news will start asking if he’s afraid, and he can’t endure that. Second is the reason he issued the ‘transcript’ and that absurd letter to Erdogan. He actually thinks he’s a negotiating genius. He’s too stupid to put together that Hillary whipped his ass because he’s pathetic, not because she’s a Nasty Woman.
zzyzx
@dimmsdale:
“I’m stunned that Elizabeth Warren isn’t everyone’s runaway favorite. ”
If you tell me that she will magically win, I’d be all about it. I just worry that she also depends too much on the concept that all of these non-voters are secretly progressives and they’ll come out with the right candidate.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@germy: Hysterics of a feather, flock together. Both of them are insufferable drama queens.
Also, what’s so typically Chris Matthews about that clip is that he doesn’t even know Bernie’s positions. Of course he doesn’t, why does he need to do any actual research or work? It’s the laziness of these big dollar pundits that really gets to me. I mean, most of the people reading this blog, and those writing for it, spend a lot of time reading up on candidates, trying to get it right. Here’s a guy with a fucking room full of researchers, paid an immense amount of money, and he just emotes. The last time he did research is when he asked what Tip and Ronny drank when they got together at the White House.
Frankensteinbeck
@zzyzx:
I think her best shot is a brokered convention. Polls show she’s everybody’s second choice. There’s a history of that working when nobody’s first choice gets through.
germy
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
It’s the David Brooks Syndrome. Just blather off the top of their heads, without facts. Just a vibe they’re feeling or something.
Don’t these people have assistants? I know Brooks had one because he ran off with her.
dimmsdale
@zzyzx: yeah, that’s fair. I’ve heard it said though that when a liberal position (e.g. on healthcare) is presented to voters versus a “conservative” position, WITHOUT LABELING, voters tend to prefer the liberal position, even if they consider themselves conservative.
Maybe that’s magical thinking, I dunno. That’s partly why I asked which of the candidates seemed to have the most visceral appeal; I just don’t know anymore, or don’t consider myself a good barometer.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@Another Scott:
Good point. Also, there are some “we can’t say that” positions that Democrats reflexively avoid that I think they should just fucking say. Examples:
Bernie said “litmus test” last night. Finally! Christ, that needed to be said long ago. Of course Republicans use litmus tests, Jesus Christ. Why can’t we?
On the “bazillion dollars” point: Someone should have said “We can just cut the defense budget a bit, and avoid stupid wars, and we’d have plenty of money to fund any program on my list.” David Muir would have collapsed in his chair. It’s not that radical a position.
On the “can you compromise with Republicans” trope. Someone should just say: “Look, in the old days, we all compromised with Republicans. But now they’re just Trump humpers who won’t compromise on shit. So we’re just going to win the Senate and ram through our fucking agenda. Don’t ask me a question that stupid again.”
Another Scott
@Frankensteinbeck: Gotta disagree. I said months and months ago that he wouldn’t debate and I see no reason to change. Remember he was afraid of that Fox anchor woman. Remember he complained that the 3 hour debates were too long, so they cut them down to 2.
He’ll hold one of his Nuremberg rallies, or go on some junket to meet his tyrant buddy Kim or Erdogan.
He won’t debate. He’s a coward, he has no stamina, and his health is going to crap. It’s too risky.
Of course, my record for predicting these things is pretty bad, so who knows…
Cheers,
Scott.
Cacti
I’ve doubted that Trump will debate the Dem nominee for a while now.
In which case, they should still hold a debate, and at Trump’s podium, put an orange rubber chicken there and refer to it as Donald Trump throughout the event.
Nothing gets under the skin of a narcissist like mockery.
dimmsdale
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
“Don’t ask me a question that stupid again.”
Gawd, I would LOVE for a candidate to hand this back to one of those smarmy, smirky poseur pundits. Unfortunately, the candidate would blow up their own campaign in so doing, because they’d never get a fair shake out of the media for the rest of their LIVES. Gotta say, though, that comment had me sitting here gleefully applauding my laptop.
Another Scott
@download my app in the app store mistermix: Yeah, being willing to – finally – refuse to accept the framing that GOP positions are obviously correct and that any change to the “perpetual war/taxes are always bad/entitlements are unsustainable” conventional wisdom is like kissing a HV power line, well it’s far past time to get out of that mindset.
But, on the DOD budget – the problem isn’t the amount of money. It’s actually too little. The problem is the missions and what the Pentagon is for. Too little? Yup. Remember the ships colliding and sailors getting killed. They’re over-worked and understaffed. There are all kinds of stories about AF planes not having spare parts, so they have to cannibalize parts from other planes. Etc. We’ve got the Pentagon doing far too much and not supporting the effort sufficiently. And that doesn’t even address the needs of the VA and all the support that veterans and retirees need.
I’m sure SP Warren has a plan for that. I’m sure St. Bernard will just feed his id and cut the budget 50% and not think about what that means. Slogans don’t need thinking… SP Warren’s comment about bringing troops home shows that she knows that actions like that are good and necessary and the only sensible way to cut the DOD budget as well as make the world a better place.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
James E Powell
@Betty Cracker:
This makes sense, but Trump doesn’t always make sense. I am certain that if you asked him he would tell you that he won every debate with Hillary Clinton and that those debates were the key to his victory.
JMG
It is fascinating if depressing to me that this week the Washington CW has shifted to “Trump a big favorite” for re-election because of three things. He wasn’t convicted in the Senate. He gave the State of the Union speech. One poll came out showing his job approval rating at 49 percent. Oh, and because Iowa Democrats screwed up their caucus results for a couple days, they are doomed. Honestly, a flock of chickens jumps to fewer conclusions that Washington political observers, and that includes the data crunchers. Their consensus is Sanders heavy favorite to win nomination because of Iowa tie. I’m well aware Trump can win. I’m aware he can lose, too.
dimmsdale
@Another Scott: think you’re right, for this reason above all others: if reports are correct, he’s in a STEEP cognitive decline, and I’m sure his advisers know it. They’d never even let the guy out of the WH except under carefully controlled circumstances where he and his handlers are totally calling the shots.
Bill Arnold
@Betty Cracker:
F that, it’s weak. If he doesn’t debate it will be because he cannot debate due to mental decline. If Joe Biden is the nominee (or perhaps Bernie Sanders) he/his team/his flying monkeys will do the projection routine[1] with out-of-context clips, but they would/will lose a gloves-off side-by-side. If the Democratic nominee is somebody who can speak in complete paragraphs, they won’t have any direct defense. To be clear, this card should have been played with Reagan in 1984, and he was more coherent at the time than D.J. Trump is now.
[1] The claim was that Hillary was dying of ‘subcortical vascular dementia”. It turned out not to be the case. Hillary Clinton Medical Records ‘Leaked’ – Right after the name of Hillary Clinton’s physician appeared in the news, suspect medical records attributed to that doctor were “leaked” online. (Snopes, 10 August 2016)
Mai naem mobile
@Spanky: I don’t believe NBC owns Alec Baldwins character so he could take it wherever you want to do this. Trumpov does so many things that are not in the norm there is no reason the Dem candidate cannot do this somewhere . HBO/Comedy Central/Online. Whatever . You know it would automatically go viral.
Van Buren
@Another Scott: I’d tweak that a little by saying it’s too little for the actual military, but way too much for the contractors. They don’t seem to be having problems.
Frankensteinbeck
@James E Powell:
He would say it, but he knows he lost, and it hurt him. He was humiliated on a national stage by a woman. It’s one of the big reasons why from that moment on she’s constantly in his head and he can’t get over her.
However, he’s too fucking stupid to extend that to the future and debates with other people.
satby
So as a resident of South Bend, can we let the bullshit about “home of Notre Dame” finally fucking DIE in this blog? Notre Dame is it’s own incorporated area and is very separate from the city though a great many residents work there. They have their own tax base, their own police and fire department.
As far as gangs, yes there are both Hispanic and black gangs here as well as a branch of the Hells Angels. I live in a poorer working class area southeast of downtown and there was a shooting at the end of my block and a stabbing murder around the corner from me. It’s not on par with larger cities, but it’s definitely not the bucolic college town you yahoos keep insisting it is.
MomSense
The problem is that a debate is a terrible way to evaluate the strength of a candidate, let alone the ability of that person to do the job. I’m convinced that the things that “win” debates aren’t actually that appealing to voters.
Cacti
@satby: So that makes it okay for the SBPD to target black people for marijuana arrests, and to do so with Pete’s blessing?
mountain granny
@Scout211: Yeah, and Warren’s name was top of the list, which I hope makes it really easy for more people to vote for her!
zhena gogolia
@Be BernieAPOSTROPHEs Valentine:
Chris Matthews is absolutely right.
WaterGirl
@satby:
I really appreciate that you can speak to South Bend issues from on the ground.
I listened to the Pod Save America podcast this morning, and everything they said about what we have to do in order to beat Trump made me think about Balloon Juice.
We are a microcosm at Balloon Juice – generally better informed and more involved than average people – and if we can’t do here what Democrats need to do in order to not let Trump win, we are well and truly screwed.
They are clearly in Bernie’s corner (I think) but what they said overall makes a lot of sense.
They also had a good interview with Pete Buttigieg at the end, and I am unable to match up the Pete that I hear about with the Pete that I see when I listen with my own ears.
If anyone has an hour this weekend, it’s worth listening to the podcast, for their thoughts on what we need to do to win and for Pete’s interview. If you don’t have an hour, then listen to Pete’s interview in the the last third of the podcast. And to the 5 minutes or so right before that where they lay out exactly how Trump can win, if we let him.
delk
Instead of using an empty chair if he won’t debate, they should use a teleprompter in his place.
Jinchi
Right. If he debates Sanders, Trump will shout “Communist” and Chris Matthews will babble on about the time Fidel Castro tried to kill him. If he debates Biden, Trump we’ll get moderator questions asking just how corrupt Hunter truly is, and if he debates Warren or Klobuchar, we’ll discuss how angry and shrill they are. If they ask about policy, Trump will simply make something up on the spot. You cannot debate a man who is not bound by facts.
zhena gogolia
@WaterGirl:
I can’t watch the debates, but when people on here are live-commenting, they always talk about how boring Pete is. I never find him boring in any of the interviews or town halls I’ve seen.
Jamie
@dimmsdale: This is my conclusion as well. Now, his handlers don’t have the best control over him, but they’d be nuts to let him on stage across from even a halfway coherent Democrat.
Spanky
I didn’t watch last night, but apparently the WaPo team of Matt Viser Michael Scherer, Chelsea Janes, and Cleve R. Wootson, Jr. watched some other debate:
Scout211
@mountain granny:
They mix the ballot order to be fair to all the candidates, so on my ballot, Andrew Yang is listed first. Elizabeth Warren is listed #19.
Jinchi
She’s in the middle on mine. I think California shuffles the order from ballot to ballot so no candidate gets the top spot advantage.
MomSense
@Jinchi:
I don’t think we should do them anymore. Just have town halls and don’t let the candidates choose the attendees.
satby
@Cacti: that’s not what I said and I can’t speak to the debate since I didn’t watch it. And the high school mean girl recaps from last night were no help.
I addressed MM’s (and others) who keep conflating an insular college campus with a city. The perception that South Bend isn’t all that safe for its students is why Notre Dame is trying to restrict the students (even seniors) to it’s own residence blocks. Plus, all the sweet sweet housing cash ND can suck up.
debbie
@James E Powell:
It might be amusing to see Trump try to creep behind Amy during a debate.
Frankensteinbeck
@Jinchi:
You can. You bait him into spouting lies that sound stupid and uncontrolled and make him look like an ass. His base loves that, but it’s part of why the suburban moderates have turned harshly against the GOP the last three years.
@Spanky:
The MSM’s belief that Iowa and New Hampshire reflect the rest of the nation is idiotic, bigoted, and predictable.
download my app in the app store mistermix
@WaterGirl:
I don’t think they are. I think they are committed to giving every candidate a fair shake, and talk about their appeal, while being honest about each candidates’ shortcomings.
I do agree that people should listen to PSA, they know a lot about politics.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
From talking to blacks I have meet, that’s policy is likely popular among his black voters. Those gangs are more likely to victimize other blacks than whites; whites are the customers of drug dealing street gangs and who shoots their customers? Other blacks are potential rivals.
EDIT I see someone from South Bend talking about Hispanic and Black gangs, Those two groups are waging a race war, so bet the minority voters just love any politician who is trying to put a stop to it.
J R in WV
@Scout211:
That seems fair, right? Right?!!
Shouldn’t they at least indicate the candidates who are no longer actively running for the office? Just asking, for a friend…
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The whole ethnic cleansing thing like in South Oakland? People don’t get minorities have their own racists thugs like us whites.
NotoriousJRT
Split screen with Dem fielding questions in a serious way and Baldwin watching on a bed surrounded by junk food wrappers, filling his face, and spewing nonsense. Or from out of his tanning bed. Or on the phone with Vlad. Bring gargoyle Rudy in…@Mai naem mobile:
NotoriousJRT
@download my app in the app store mistermix: I stopped listening because of the bro fest atmosphere and Lovett’s inability to resist making a “joke” nearly every time he gets the mic. He is a smart guy, but not an irresistibly funny one. When he speaks seriously, it’s valuable insight. It’s just too rare for me. I don’t have time for the bro bullshit. I tune in to get informed. I don’t feel they respect my time as a listener.
Another Scott
@Van Buren: One has to be careful. There are contractors, and there are CONTRACTORS. E.g. the contractor workers didn’t get paid during the government shut down (WaPo link).
And for people who are concerned about $12B aircraft carriers and the like, things are expensive these days. The Silver Line Metro to Dulles airport is costing around $6B.
To be clear, there is a lot of waste in the DoD and associated contractors. But less than one might imagine simply looking at GIGANTIC NUMBER OF DOLLARS without considering what gets bought (and what is needed and doesn’t get bought for lack of funds).
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@download my app in the app store mistermix:
I agree with that, and they have been excellent about reminding us that we all need to get behind the democratic candidate, no matter who it is – and they have been doing that for months.
I still think, though, they they give Bernie the benefit of the doubt on things where they wouldn’t do that for another candidate.
In the podcast I listened to last night, they said that Bernie has been the best of all the candidates at unity and being clear that we all have to get behind the nominee. In the next breath they said well, yeah, Bernie’s peeps are doing the exact opposite. Acknowledging the one thing while saying Bernie is the best at unity is laughable, and I think it showed their bias.
That’s my take, anyway.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
A lot of military spending is on redundancy and effective readiness. Ship I was stationed on, every system had a redundancy back up. Navigation, 2 completely separate gyrocompass and backup battery systems and magnetic compasses as back up to that. Three different systems to communicate ship’s operating needs if one failed, etc. All of that costs money, all of it requires more people to operate and maintain. Airplanes/helicopters are highly maintained and have parts replaced often, to insure long service life and operational readiness as well. And losses do occur of course and have to be replaced. Repair parts at sea or on far away bases have to be delivered now if not carried in inventory. And all the means to do that have to have the same backups and readiness.
That’s just one piece of the high cost of the military.
The real question is, do we need to be the world’s police, be around the globe, pole to pole, or do we do this because it insures that we are effectively in charge of the world, or at least were considered at one time to be that?
NotMax
@Ruckus
Knew someone who was stationed in Spain when he was in the Air Force. Part of his job entailed typing and sending up through channels requisitions for parts.
One day he was summarily called into a superior’s office and curtly asked, “Is this what you intended to order?” Turns out he had gotten a digit wrong (or maybe transposed) in the part number and had mistakenly submitted an order for the landing assembly for a C-5A.
dnfree
@satby: the same is true of Evanston, Illinois, home of Northwestern University. Plus Northwestern doesn’t pay taxes—does South Bend have that problem also?
One of our children went to Bradley University, which is in Peoria. Also the same urban issues around the campus.
Sab
@satby: I was initially charmed by Mayor Pete when I heard him being interviewed on Cleveland local NPR about a year ago right after he announced. He seemed very bright, articulate and thoughtful. He still does.
I do have a problem with him as mayor. I can’t tell how much of that is on him, and how much of that is on his situation.
I live in a somewhat larger midwestern city (Akron, OH). We are about twice as big as South Bend. We have a university dominating downtown, but it isn’t old and illustrious like Notre Dame.
Our successful mayors for the last 50 years or so have been working class guys who grew up in mixed-race neighborhoods. They can and do work well with black community leaders. I don’t know how much of that was the mayors and how much of that was the black community leaders. I suspect it was solidly both. We had a black city council president for decades who could always work with the mayor and get things done. (Big contrast to our neighbor to the north, Cleveland, that had the mayors and city council at perpetual loggerheads since forever.)
Anyway, I feel that South Bend is more like New Haven CN than Akron. There seems to be a sharp town/gown divide (which we don’t have) and Buttigieg was born on one side and can’t reach over. That may be his fault, that made be the townies fault, but there it is.
That’s why I am skeptical. How far off base am I.
Also too pedants. When to use “which” v “that”.
NotMax
@Sab
Grammarly speaks.
Geoduck
Add me to the “he’ll do the debates if he gets called chicken enough” crowd. I hope the eventual Dem nominee hammers on that every time a microphone gets shoved in hir face.
satby
@Sab: sorry for the late reply. Akron would be closer, and there was an article I shared from the New Yorker only last week that talked about how frustrated citizens of South Bend felt when outsiders assume that it’s not more rust belt than college town.
There’s an entire YouTube channel of South Bend Stories where people from the town talk about the former mayor. I’m just going to point people at that since no one listens to me when I say he’s generally popular here. And yes, it’s supporters, but it’s a cross section of people who keep getting drowned out by Bernie trolls online.
Sab
@satby: So MSM or whoever are just rummaging around looking for black leaders who say they don’t like him?
That could be done in Akron, but they would have to dig hard.
Cleveland in the old days they didn’t.
Akron in the old days before the Rust Belt, the mayor was annointed by the tire companies, and they didn’t care about anyone else in the city.
satby
@dnfree: I think that Notre Dame incorporated as it’s own town to pay taxes to itself, and as a “religious organization” it gets enormous tax breaks anyway. So my impression is that with traffic and rowdy student problems, it’s more of a drain than a benefit, but a lot of people do work there and live in the city, so it’s maybe indirectly a net plus.
Sab
@satby: Thanks. Useful to know.
I actually kind of like our political intra party fight threads if they don’t get too vitriolic.
They help dispel a lot of myths.
I have been following E Warren since she was writing on the bankruptcy bill in 2004 at Talking Points. These other guys are new to me.
I have a much better opinion of Harris, Buttigieg and Klobuchar than I did before. The initial assault was all the MSM covered. Jackel locals came in with actual info, not just spin.
Sab
@NotMax: Thanks. I may have stumbled into the correct usage.
satby
@Sab: like any politician, you can find both white and black folks who don’t like Pete either. My point is that my black and Latinex neighbors who are supporters are being erased because it doesn’t support the memes put out by the same people who also put out the “Kamala was a cop” memes. Pete would (and has repeatedly) taken responsibility for not getting better accountability and diversity in policing. But that’s a problem nationwide, isn’t it?
Sab
@satby: Connie Schultz hates the use of “rust belt”. I don’t. Scotland has “Irn Brew” soda pop, celebrating Glasgow’s industrial roots: flavorless but sweet and carbonated, and very orange in color.
Sab
@satby: That is what I thought you were saying. Mayoring is hard. You can always find people who were disappointed or just not in the in crowd, and MSM did just that.
I am still all in for Warren, but very comfortable now with Buttigieg.
Also, him being young: Founding Fathers said 35 for President, which is a lot older than the 21 they set for the House, or the 30 they set for the Senate. He hasn’t spent those years just trying to get sober like some other Presidents. He has done a lot.
janesays
All of that makes sense, but I’m not quite ready to jump on the “there’s no way he’ll do the debates” train quite yet, since there were a gazillion people who said in 2016, “there’s no way he’ll do the debates”, and well… they were wrong. He may or may not do the debates, but I don’t think either choice would be particularly consequential. It’s been clear since at least 2000 that winning the debates is a really bad predictor of who will win the election, since the Democrats have won pretty much all of them by most accounts, and yet… we’ve only got two Electoral College wins under our belt in that span.
Basically I’m saying the debates don’t really matter anymore, and if Trump does do them and does as horrible in them as everybody assumes he would, it won’t have any meaningful impact on the election. More precisely, if he does the debates and then loses the election, he still would have lost even if he hadn’t done the debates
This election is 100% going to be decided by turnout. We know his people are going to show up in full force, and we know there are more of us than there are of them. The question is… are we going to show up? Yes, I realize most voter suppression involves people literally being prevented from voting , but straight up apathy on our side was probably enough to swing MI, PA, and WI in 2016. And I think we can win if we show up in full force, regardless of what obstacles they throw at us. I think there were a lot of people in 2016 who didn’t really like either candidate but marginally preferred Clinton over Trump, but chose not to vote because they assumed Clinton had it in the bag and their vote wouldn’t be necessary. I am convinced that if America had the chance for a do-over a week after the 2016 election, Clinton would have won because a lot of the folks who sat it out because they assumed the outcome was already set in stone would have gotten off their asses to prevent Trump from actually winning
I hope to God that everyday between now and November 3rd, we’re reminded that Trump can actually win this contest if we don’t take it seriously and decide to sit it out.
Morzer
@Frankensteinbeck: If Warren gets the nomination via a brokered convention, the screaming from the Sandernistas is going to be heard several galaxies away.
artem1s
No way Trump will debate. He’s going to claim he’s not afraid but the election is going to be fixed and witch-hunt….blah, blah, blah…trying to overturn the will of the voters.
Fox news will give him free air time anyway and then the other networks will do the same.
cminus
As a South Bend native born and raised, I echo what @satby says. When Mayor Pete took office in 2012 the murder rate in South Bend was actually higher than that of Washington DC. Even with the murder rate rising in DC and falling in South Bend, murder rates were still basically comparable as recently as 2017 (16.67 per 100,000 in Washington DC, 14.73 per 100,000 in South Bend).
Notre Dame historically hasn’t had a lot to do with the city, and it’s a much smaller university than people realize besides.
bk
bk
FYI…Klobuchar did not come up from nothing. She’s the daughter of a famous sportswriter in the Twin Cities. That’s not nuttin.