Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.

Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

Consistently wrong since 2002

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

The republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Let me file that under fuck it.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

“woke” is the new caravan.

In after Baud. Damn.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.

Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

The words do not have to be perfect.

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

He really is that stupid.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about its history.”

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2020 / NH Debate Open Thread: Early Reviews

NH Debate Open Thread: Early Reviews

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Despite the Blogmaster’s fears, it seems like Buttigieg is getting pretty good reviews. In fact, at this moment in time, it seems like all the best people (my faves) did well, and the spoilers and also-rans… did themselves no favors.


Sidebar: I’m getting a distinct impression that Klobuchar is pitching to be somebody’s VP — perhaps, especially, Buttigieg’s. In a campaign where the most important factor is GET TRUMP OUT OF THERE, her ‘cruel’ reputation could be a strong point. Pete/Amy 2020: Don’t make the nice young man send Amy down to deal with you, Repubs. She would also be a good fit for Biden: Kindly Uncle Joe might forget your slights, GOP, but Amy? She holds grudges.

Small blessings:

Reader Interactions

65Comments

  1. 1.

    jl

    Thanks for interesting tweets and links.

    Warren far outperformed expectations in Iowa, so I hope she can do the same in upcoming races, so she can compete in super Tuesday.

    Some Bernie fanatics are muttering that Warren should get out now to consolidate progressive support for Sanders. But not at all clear to me that enough of Warren’s support will go to Sanders to help him compared to the centrists.

    I want a progressive for the general election, and I really really very very strongly prefer Warren over Sanders. If Warren drops out, I’ll probably go kick a hole in a wall someplace for a while.

  2. 2.

    Jerzy Russian

    Speaking of Star Wars, much of the dialog can be improved if you use the word “pants”:

    I find your lack of pants disturbing.

    General Tarkin, I recognized your foul pants when I was brought aboard.

    I used bulls-eye womp rats in my pants back home.

     

    And so on…

  4. 4.

    Jerzy Russian

    @jl:   Lock the door—and hope they don’t have pants.

     

    Related:  You look strong enough to pull the pants off a Gundark.

  5. 5.

    Yutsano

    Checking in from Addison, TX! Been too busy having fun and hanging with friends to pay too much attention to politics. But it sounds like nothing is going to get settled in New Hampshire and President Toadface is on a dictatorial tear. We gotta vote these fuckers out. As many as we can.

  6. 6.

    jl

    This is a touchy issue, but I think Biden is looking, or maybe behaving, frail. in some way. I think he started to stutter at least three times in tonight’s debate. I wasn’t worried as some were earlier, about Biden being in some troubling way more ‘out of it’ than previously. If you look at old clips of Biden, he’s always been ‘out of it’ in some ways, though very sharp in others.

    But, now, definitely, he seems frail in some vague way to me. But I didn’t see anyone here or in media and twit commentary mention it. Am I seeing something others aren’t?

    I’ve been extremely disappointed by Biden’s campaign, so I am probably biased. But I don’t think I am biased in that way. Maybe what I am seeing is just his dismay at his last chance slipping away.

  8. 8.

    NotMax

    @Jerzy Russian

    “In my experience there is no such thing as pants.”
    – Old Ben Kenobi

    Have long stipulated one of the alternate audio tracks on the DVD ought to be Outrageous French Accent. Friends and I got into the habit of tossing out lines from it in just that manner. Never not humorous.

    :)

  10. 10.

    Kraux Pas

    @jl: If Warren drops out, no way do I move to Bernie. I don’t even know what I’ll do. This may be the first time I skip a competitive primary.

    The women in this race have gotten a raw deal. It’s seriously starting to piss me off.

  11. 11.

    jl

    @Kraux Pas:  The major women candidates, across the ideological spectrum, are all better than the men (I say ‘major’ to rule out a couple of others who are no longer on the stage).

    Warren and Klobuchar have not gotten nearly the coverage they deserve in the news, and some coverage of Warren and Harris has been definitely, IMHO, obvious sexist garbage.

    The corporate media does like Klobuchar for sittings on the Sunday talkies and interviews. But I think she has too many principles for big money to have much interest in supporting her as a new prospect. That went to O’Rourke before he flamed out with shallow gimmicks, and is now going to Buttigieg.

  12. 12.

    Kraux Pas

    @jl: It doesn’t help that I’ve managed to convince myself that Bloomberg has a chance. I should wait til he wins some actual votes before I panic.

  13. 13.

    Manxome Bromide

    @Jerzy Russian: This is a also an excellent thing to do to the spell list from Dungeons and Dragons.

    Protection From Pants.

    Wall of Pants.

    Speak With Pants.

    Pants, 15′ Radius.

    Leomund’s Secret Pants.

    Tasha’s Uncontrollable Hideous Pants.

    Teleport Without Pants.

  14. 14.

    Eljai

    @Kraux Pas: It drives me nuts when people assume Warren’s supporters automatically go to Bernie.  I think that Warren and Sanders occupy the same progressive lane, but I’m a Warren supporter and Bernie was never my second choice.  I look for a lot of important qualities in a presidential candidate at this time in history.  As far as second choices go, I’d be fine with Amy Klobuchar.  I was open to voting for Biden, but I’m worried about his age.  It’s a demanding job.

  15. 15.

    Kraux Pas

    @Eljai: Klobuchar was tied for my third with Booker until both he and Harris dropped out.

    And yeah, Warren and Sanders may occupy the same progressive lane, but one would think that her knowledgability and ability to cooperate with people would distinguish her in a very positive way.

  17. 17.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Chris Matthews: “God I fucking hate socialists like Bernie.”

    Chris Hayes: “I think he means Denmark-style social programs.”

    Matthews: “How do you know he doesn’t want to line up people like me in Central Park and shoot them?”

    Hayes: “Wut?”#DemDebate #MSNBC
    — Santa Claus, CEO (@SantaInc) February 8, 2020

    This is why Wilmer would lost 49 states.  Instead of a referendum on Dump, the media would spend the next 10 months asking if Wilmer would be as bad as Chavez.

  20. 20.

    Kent

    I missed the debate because I took my daughters to see Dear Evan Hansen tonight.  It sounds like Klobuchar was really tough.  Three thoughts.

    1.  Only ONE candidate on the state is actually in the prime of life and with the experience to tackle the most important job on the planet.  And that’s Klobuchar.  Perhaps Warren with a stretch as she is an energizer bunny. But she would be 81 at the end of her second term.  Is it too much to ask for a president with the appropriate life experience who is still in the prime of their life?   This isn’t a part-time job.
    2. I’ve said this before but I think Trump is uniquely terrified of strong women.  He has spent his entire career beating up men in business and politics.  He has that male dominance thing down cold as he went through the GOP primary like butter and has the entire GOP Senate and everyone who has ever worked for him cowed.  He has gotten rid of all the strong women near him in positions of power like Janet Yellen and hasn’t appointed a single women to any real significant position, the Supreme Court, the Cabinet, anywhere.  Pelosi has him terrified and off his game.  I think either Warren or Klobuchar are the two toughest candidates against Trump for that reason.  I read somewhere that Trump has spent more on online ads against Warren than any other candidate.  Money talks.  Trump has a feral nose for identifying threats.  I think he is most afraid of Warren and I think Klobuchar who has been off the radar would be the toughest for him to beat.
    3. Klobuchar is probably the best VP candidate for all of the men.  If Warren wins the nomination I think 99% chance she picks a man.  But if any of the others win then I think Klobuchar.   If Sanders wins the nomination he is really going to need to pick a more unifying VP and that would be Klobuchar who might give comfort to a lot of centrist types.  Especially with a near 80 old guy with a heart problem.   Bernie Twitter would melt down but fuck them.  If Sanders wants to win and not tilt at windmills he needs a VP like Klobuchar or someone similar who can balance him out and tone him down and make the centrists more comfortable.

    Eventually this is going to come down to Bernie against someone else. Two weeks ago we thought that might be Biden.  I’m feeling more like it might end up being Bloomberg.  If the anti-Bernie keeps getting split 4-ways between Warren, Buttigieg, Biden, and Klobuchar then Bloomberg might have an opening when this shifts to a big state media campaign.  I’d be hard pressed who to vote for if it came down to those two.  Probably Bloomberg with my nose held.

  21. 21.

    Kraux Pas

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: This is why Wilmer would lost 49 states.  Instead of a referendum on Dump, the media would spend the next 10 months asking if Wilmer would be as bad as Chavez.

    I would consider this more a mark against the media than against Bernie. Also, too, they’ll pull out roughly this script no matter whom the Dems nominate.

  22. 22.

    mrmoshpotato

    @jl: Baud! 2020! Pants? We ain’t got no pants. We don’t need no pants. I don’t have to show you any stinking pants.

  24. 24.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Kent:

     then Bloomberg might have an opening when this shifts to a big state media campaign.

    Bloomberg has been on the TV here in California for the past month(along with Steyer and Bernie).  His ads are really polished, top notch ads.  The one that’s been running the past couple of days had clips of President Obama saying nice things about Bloomberg when he was working on gun control.

    I disagree on several points, Trump has no fear of women because he doesn’t consider them to be his equal.  The exception is the Speaker, because she has real power.  Opposing candidates have no power as far as Trump is concerned, he’ll do the same thing he did with Hillary.  Second, Bernie will not choose a mainstream running mate if he’s the nominee, he’ll go with one of his people(maybe Nina Turner).

  27. 27.

    Kent

    @Eljai:@Kraux Pas: It drives me nuts when people assume Warren’s supporters automatically go to Bernie.  I think that Warren and Sanders occupy the same progressive lane, but I’m a Warren supporter and Bernie was never my second choice.  I look for a lot of important qualities in a presidential candidate at this time in history.  As far as second choices go, I’d be fine with Amy Klobuchar.  I was open to voting for Biden, but I’m worried about his age.  It’s a demanding job.

    I’m a Warren supporter and Bernie would be my last choice of the top 5.  I’d probably pick Bloomberg over Bernie.  The actual job of the next president will be 49% traveling the world to pick up the pieces of our international policy, alliances, and leadership on climate change and democracy/human rights.  That will be hard work and require the gravitas of an Obama or Clinton.  I don’t see Sanders as equipped for that.   I think Warren is as is Klobuchar, and probably Biden.  Pete could grow into it like a Justin Trudeau but he would need the most training wheels.

    The next 49% of the job will be putting back together the executive branch from the EPA to the State Department to HHS.  Trump and his people have left absolute wreckage in every corner of the government that will be immense work to root out with all the obscene regulations and horror from turning the EPA over to polluters to mining in national monuments.   That is going to require a consummate administrator who is going to pick the absolutely toughest and most experienced leaders for every agency who can step in and get shit done.  Bernie is also not that guy.  Warren is for sure, also Klobuchar.

    If we take back the Senate than maybe 2% of the job of the next president will be pushing big legislative proposals through Congress.  That will mostly be on Pelosi an Schumer.  Obama barely lifted a finger on Obamacare, at least overtly.  His people spent a ton of energy on it obviously, but it was mostly Congress.  Of course if McConnell is still there then we are talking zero legislation anyway.  90% of these debates is focused on big legislative proposals and parsing the differences between them when that is going to be the smallest portion of the next president’s job.

  30. 30.

    Kent

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: If Sanders wants to actually win he’ll pick a centrist from outside the Northeast.  Someone very mainstream.  If not a Klobuchar then a Harris or someone equivalent.  He will have to put together a Democratic unity ticket of some sort to actually beat Trump. He’s older than Biden FFS and has actually already had one heart attack.

    Bernie winning the nomination is my worst nightmare because I think he is the least electable and the only chance to turn that around is some sort of serious unity ticket.  He will be under INTENSE fucking pressure to do so from every single big player in the party.  His twitterati aren’t going to be in the room when he’s taking the meeting with Obama and Clinton and Pelosi and all the big guns to talk this stuff through.

  32. 32.

    Eljai

    @Kent: Yeah, I was thinking along those lines as well.  I remember reading about how President Obama and Hillary as Secretary of State had to travel the globe to convince everyone it was safe to work with us again after the Bush administration.  I can’t even wrap my head around the kind of cleanup we’ll have to do domestically and internationally to recover from this, but I hold out hope.

  33. 33.

    hitchhiker

    Bernie, born Sept 8, 1941.

    On election day in Nov 2020, he will have just turned 79. He’d have his 80th birthday during his first year in office.

    Biden is just a year younger, born in 1942. He’d have his 80th birthday during his second year in office.

    People, this is ridiculous. Of course they look frail. This is old age! These guys are not even boomers; they’re Silent Generation people.

    Warren was born in June, 1949 — still old in 2020 as presidents go, though as we know women tend to live longer than men. She’d be taking office around the age Reagan did; he was not quite 78 on the day he doddered off the stage.

    What are Biden and Bernie thinking? Who would think they’re capable of one of the toughest, most mentally demanding jobs in the world at age 80, when the stakes if they fuck it up are so high?

  34. 34.

    206inKY

    @Kent:  Couldn’t agree more with your first two bullet points. As for the third, I think Stacey Abrams remains the best VP for anyone, including Amy. My dream ticket is Klobucher and Abrams.

    I suspect a brokered convention might nominate Amy as the candidate least objectionable to the most delegates. There are many who casually lump Sanders and Warren together as the socialists, and they are hostile after the accusations of lying. Biden’s mind is slipping. Everybody on that stage kind of hates Pete. And Bloomberg will look too unconventional to win a brokered convention. Klobucher has a pretty progressive record but has successfully branded herself as a moderate, and she won’t arrive with enough delegates to make the heavy hitters feel like they are folding to a rival.

    That said, I can’t stop thinking about this article:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-2020-disinformation-war/605530/

    How the hell are we going to compete with a billion dollars in dark money for digital disinformation? Maybe Bernie’s online army can pull it off pro bono. But it’s conditions like this that make Bloomberg’s billions look good. He could easily drop $5 billion on the general.

  35. 35.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Eljai: I can’t even wrap my head around the kind of cleanup we’ll have to do domestically and internationally to recover from this, but I hold out hope.

    A job that requires Hillary to be SoS and President. :)

  36. 36.

    Kent

    @mrmoshpotato: Now there’s a unity ticket.  Sanders/Clinton and turn Clinton loose with a fucking bulldozer and flame thrower to purge the government of Trumpism.

    The man is dottering and has a weak heart.  His VP is likely to be president before 2024.  It would rub  hell of a lot of people the wrong way to have her take 2nd chair but for the sake of the country you couldn’t have a better VP and president in waiting.

  37. 37.

    Kent

    @206inKY:@Kent:  Couldn’t agree more with your first two bullet points. As for the third, I think Stacey Abrams remains the best VP for anyone, including Amy. My dream ticket is Klobucher and Abrams.

    I’m Stacey Abrams curious but honestly, being out here in the Pacific Northwest I just haven’t had that much exposure to her.  Yes, I know 2018 but I was working the WA-3rd race and following a shitload of other things so I don’t think I ever really saw her speak if at all except I think her non-concession speech.  But I trust you all when you say she is the real deal.  We knew that about Obama too from the point of the 2004 Convention onwards.

    If we are talking about southern black women then I also have to put Val Demings high on that list.  Especially if she can possibly put FL in play.  She is a serious badass and I think would have very wide appeal with her background if she were properly introduced to America.

  38. 38.

    Mart

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: I was channel flipping – assume MSNBC was replaying post debate talking heads. Mathews waxing poetic about Klobuchar being presidental, that she brought up socialism, that he has seen socialism in Cuba? and Vietnam?? and it just does not work. Rest of the panel smiled. Hayes cut to commercial. WTF is wrong with that fucker? Retire and let someone who has been to Germany and Norway, and seen the US military, sent their kids to public schools, honored Fireman and Policemen, tipped their mailman and garbage collector, collected a social security check, or received subsidized ACA healthcare talk about fucking DEMOCRATIC socialism. What a fucker. These old media pigs are gonna let the fascists win, just cause that democratic socialism is so fucking bad.

  39. 39.

    Kent

    @Mart:@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: I was channel flipping – assume MSNBC was replaying post debate talking heads. Mathews waxing poetic about Klobuchar being presidental, that she brought up socialism, that he has seen socialism in Cuba? and Vietnam?? and it just does not work. Rest of the panel smiled. Hayes cut to commercial. WTF is wrong with that fucker? Retire and let someone who has been to Germany and Norway, and seen the US military, sent their kids to public schools, honored Fireman and Policemen, tipped their mailman and garbage collector, collected a social security check, or received subsidized ACA healthcare talk about fucking DEMOCRATIC socialism. What a fucker. These old media pigs are gonna let the fascists win, just cause that democratic socialism is so fucking bad.

    Chris Matthews was in the Peace Corps in Africa in the 1960s and was Tip O’Neal’s Chief of Staff during the Reagan years.  He was once young, smart, and worldly.  I don’t know what fucking happened to him.  He got old white man’s disease I guess.  But he didn’t start out like a Limbaugh or Hannity having done nothing else in his life but vomit garbage on TV.

  40. 40.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Kent: Whoever the nominee is, they don’t have to take meetings with Obama, Clinton, or Pelosi, they can(and often do) choose whoever they feel most comfortable with to be their running mate.   Considering the bad blood between Bernie and the Democratic Party, I doubt he’d talk to anyone if he was the nominee(Buad help us).

  43. 43.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Kent:

    Sanders/Clinton 

    But seriously, how many Wilmeristas’ heads would explode?

    “I get to vote for Vermont Jesus for President!  WTF!  He picked that corporate whore as VP!”

  44. 44.

    NotMax

    @BillinGlendaleCA

    Also has the weird conviction that Philadelphia of the 50s, 60s (and even the – ugh – Frank Rizzo 70s) was Eden on Earth and the ideal template for how the rest of the country should be.

  46. 46.

    Mart

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Sorry, I got a job today and vowed to stop paying attention to cable news so I can get work done. Twenty seconds of Mathews and my head exploded. Yes, I do have Trump derangement syndrome, and it is no good for me.

  49. 49.

    opiejeanne

    @jl:  I think he started to stutter at least three times in tonight’s debate.

     

    You do know that Joe Biden has a stutter, right? This is not old age or anything new, and he’s volunteered with children with speech impediments for years. One of the RW asshole women, was it Lara Trump?, made fun of his stutter a couple of weeks ago and got shredded for it.

  51. 51.

    NotMax

    @opiejeanne

    He does evince, though, that less than healthy looking old man papery skin pallor. No way to tell from any view I’ve seen whether or not his elevens are up.

  52. 52.

    Betty Cracker

    I laughed out loud at the notion that Klobuchar was angling to be Buttigieg’s VP. Her contempt for him was palpable. Not saying she wouldn’t accept the job. But I didn’t see any angling. I saw a more qualified woman looking at a younger colleague who got the promotion she deserved and thinking, “You? Really?”

    Hope Weigel’s right about this being Steyer and Yang’s last debate. They are sucking up way too much oxygen at a critical time.

  54. 54.

    satby

    @Betty Cracker: I agree that a Klobuchar /Buttigieg ticket in either order is not happening. And Sanders has already stated that if he gets the nomination he’s selecting a VP who “shares his worldview” so that won’t be anyone we would like as VP. It’s a helluva thing that as a result of Bernie’s poll numbers and the ratfucking in his favor we know is happening that Bloomberg is looking like a lesser evil.

  55. 55.

    Betty Cracker

    Our small-town newspaper is so unintentionally hilarious. Here’s a quote from a person whose property was damaged in the storm on Thursday:

    “I’ve never had to deal with this before,” she said, noting no one got hurt in the ordeal. “But you’ve got a very tired postal worker who’s freaking out, and a scared cat, Stripes. He pulled up the outdoor carpeting and curled up in there like a ball.”

    Poor Stripes!

  57. 57.

    Chris Johnson

    Bloomberg is never gonna be a lesser evil. I guess wait and see. And take whatever personal opportunities you’ve got to be sane and human and in favor of whoever you prefer (for me, still Warren) because I think a lot of people are checking out of the madness. When half the candidates and all the media are raving stark madness it does not make you want to get in there and argue with them. Especially when some of ’em are getting paid by Russia just to mess with your head. No thanks. No comment. Waiting to cast actual votes, not responding to any polls (just another vector for fucking with people at this stage), let’s see how this one unfolds.

  58. 58.

    dnfree

    @jl: dead thread, but my husband said immediately that Biden didn’t look good. He never looked good through the whole thing.
    For comparison purposes, when my husband said my mother didn’t look good (and I argued with him), she was dead in a month of a heart attack at age 80.

  59. 59.

    debbie

    @dnfree:

    Boy, I saw a clip of him last night and I guess it was the first time I was really paying attention (I usually just listen), but I couldn’t believe how much he’s aged in the last three years.

  60. 60.

    Mo MacArbie

    @Manxome Bromide: More dead thread action, but thank you for this.
    cure critical pants
    Tenser’s floating pants
    phantasmal pants
    pantswrack
    purify pants & socks
    find the pants

  61. 61.

    Princess

    @dnfree: Death takes a lot out of anyone but the death of your child when you are old takes things out of you that time is not going to be able to put back. I’ve seen it with others.

  62. 62.

    WaterGirl

    @Jay:

    “Let me assure you, the Department will not tolerate any act of retaliation or reprisal against” Col. Vindman. t.co/iIUJQkaX8B— Neal Katyal (@neal_katyal) February 7, 2020

    I wish you guys would share some context when you post tweets by people who are not well known to everyone.

    There’s no way to know whether it’s someone with a particular knowledge base or someone with an axe to grind; whether the person has ties to a particular candidate, party, or country; whether the person is being snarky or serious.

    Please please please, you guys who post tweets here, give us the context we need to evaluate what is being said.

  63. 63.

    WaterGirl

    @Betty Cracker:

    I laughed out loud at the notion that Klobuchar was angling to be Buttigieg’s VP. Her contempt for him was palpable. Not saying she wouldn’t accept the job. But I didn’t see any angling. I saw a more qualified woman looking at a younger colleague who got the promotion she deserved and thinking, “You? Really?”

    My reaction exactly!

  64. 64.

    J R in WV

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Is….is Chris Matthews alright in the head?

     

     

    Simple answer to simple question — No! Hasn’t been for years! Shouldn’t have a podium at all, let alone be allowed to make absurd accusations about mainstream candidates!!

  65. 65.

    Miss Bianca

    @Kent: that is literally (yes, Steve in the WTF, literally!) the only scenario in which I could see myself actually happy to vote for Sanders.

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