Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

In my day, never was longer.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

T R E 4 5 O N

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

After roe, women are no longer free.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

I was promised a recession.

This fight is for everything.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Cleaning Out Some Files

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Cleaning Out Some Files

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228Comments

  2. 2.

    Chyron HR

    “I’m still holding all the cards, and guess what: they’re all full houses! I’ve never played cards. Meaning to learn.” – Wheatley, Portal 2

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    any body else regretting even getting out of bed this morning?

    That’s me, every morning when I turn on the computer to see what’s happened in the past 24 hours.

  5. 5.

    WaterGirl

    @OzarkHillbilly: That’s exactly their goal.  Overwhelm us, fill us with despair, make us feel helpless, and win 4 more years.

    This week, for me, they have succeeded with all 3 goals.  I’m confident that I will bounce back, but at this point, I can barely even read Balloon Juice without getting frustrated and angry.

    We are collectively letting blowhard pundits and worse control the outcome of our democratic primary.  I am beyond depressed and distressed by this.

  6. 6.

    Bruce K

    “He’s not just a regular moron. He’s the product of the greatest minds of a generation working together with the express purpose of building the dumbest moron who ever lived. And you just put him in charge of the entire facility.” – GlaDOS, Portal 2

    Well done, GOP. *clap* *clap* *clap* Oh, good. the sarcastic slow clap subroutine still works.

  7. 7.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Jeff Bezos has some new digs:

    Only a handful of Beverly Hills houses have ever rivaled the Warner estate. With its 13,600-square-foot Georgian-style mansion, expansive terraces and gardens, two guesthouses, nursery and three hothouses, tennis court, swimming pool, nine-hole golf course and motor court complete with its own service garage and gas pumps, the nine-acre property was— and still is—the archetypal studio mogul’s estate.

    My 12.5 acres of hill and hollers suddenly feels so… Inadequate. Yeah that’s the word.

    Hey Jeff, I found just the chicken coop for you. It’s a steal at just a $100Gs.

    (Alas, my google-fu is lacking. I was looking for a different coop for Jeff. The one I was thinking of has a Greek Revival facade with columns, marble floors, heat and AC, etc etc. I think it’s somewhere in Tennessee and cost something along the lines of $500Gs)

  8. 8.

    OzarkHillbilly

    A Tennessee lawmaker has introduced an amendment to a resolution that would recognize CNN and the Washington Post “as fake news” that is “part of the media wing of the Democratic party”.
    The amendment read: “We recognize that fake news outlets suggest ideas without directly making accusations so that they can claim innocence from their ivory towers.”

    Republican state representative Micah Van Huss of Jonesboro introduced the measure Tuesday at the state’s capital. According to local station WREG, it amends a previous joint house resolution filed last month.

    The resolution cites instances throughout 2019 in which the Post staff or CNN personalities referred to Donald Trump’s supporters as a cult or “cult-like”. It said: “We condemn them for denigrating our citizens and implying that they are weak-minded followers instead of people exercising their rights that our veterans paid for with their blood.” Lawmakers behind the resolution also criticized the notion of a “spell Trump has cast on the Republican party” as Washington Post editor, Marc Fisher, suggested in an October editorial.

    The resolution will now be debated within the state house’s subcommittee on sentencing and protections before a vote is scheduled.

    Media outlets have received increasing criticism from conservatives and Trump followers over their coverage. CNN recently earned the president’s ire after host Don Lemon, along with guests, criticised Trump, Mike Pompeo and what they called “an administration defined by ignorance of the world”. One of the guests said Pompeo was “playing to [the Republican] base”.

    “We are NOT a cult! We are NOT morons! We just have alternative facts! Take that you ivory tower elitist coastal poopyheads!”

  9. 9.

    Mai naem mobile

    I saw this a couple of days ago and am curious as to what the folks here think of it. AOC has a new primary challenger –  Michelle Caruso Cabrera. She used to be a reporter/host on CNBC. She did quite a bit of foreign reporting stuff and then here. She quit a little while back to pursue other opportunities but you would still see her once in a while doing fill in kind of stuff.  I don’t know about social issues but otherwise she’s pretty damn conservative. She’s kind of like a Latino Maria Bartiromo except she is smarter than Bartiromo. I don’t get it though. She’s not got a Bloomberg kind of reputation where he was pretty much considered a Dem turning GOP to avoid the stiff  Dem competition(I am talking 2001 mayoral Bloomberg not current heavier scrutiny Bloomberg.)  The point is why is she running. To confuse people because they’re both Hispanic women with three names. Is she just grifting for the campaign donations? Is it a ratfucking operation? Is it to destroy AOC in some way? There are plenty of clips of her saying conservative stuff on CNBC.  She doesn’t have a chance in hell. Its the Bronx and the district is +29D.

  15. 15.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Mai naem mobile: It’s a vanity run. Conservatives are filled with the certainty that they are all smarter than AOC, that she’s a lightweight, that the only reason she got elected is because she’s a Latina with a pretty face and all that is needed to defeat her is a true conservative.

    They will throw money at her like water at a housefire and when she loses it will be because Lieberals are stoopid.

  19. 19.

    JPL

    My representative Lucy McBath endorsed Bloomberg, which makes sense considering his support for gun control

  22. 22.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Where’s the 9 hole golf course? I want my money back.

    Slightly more serious query: Any idea WTF is up with the property to the left of his? 2 basketball courts and a soccer pitch? That part next to Angelo drive looks to be reverting to the wild and the bit right next to JB’s place looks more like a construction equipment depot/junkyard than it does a Beverly Hills estate.

  23. 23.

    debbie

    Nothing like waking up to some jerk defending Barr’s actions on the Stone sentencing. By citing WaPo reporting that the decision to override the prosecutors’ recommendation was made on Monday night before Trump’s tweets, he declares that Barr wasn’t manipulated and Trump couldn’t have interfered. Really? Trump couldn’t have called him on Monday and then tweeted later?

    I don’t know which ticks me off more: That Barr did Trump’s bidding or that we are assumed to be stupid enough to buy stupid arguments like this.

  27. 27.

    The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion

    Morning, everyone.  A beloved coworker is a former Bernie Bro who’s now Buttigieg-curious.  We’ve talked a little bit about the High Sparrow’s campaign’s Russian ties, his wife’s grift, his unvetted status as a presidential candidate, and other stuff I first learned on Balloon Juice.  Can anyone recommend 1-2 good sources for the Wilmer red flags?

  28. 28.

    rikyrah

    Tucker Carlson's now straight up demanding that Trump pardon Roger Stone:"The president must pardon Stone… In one entirely constitutional act, the president could save Stone’s life, vindicate himself, and end this nonsense forever. Let’s hope he does it. We’ll be watching." pic.twitter.com/YXdU1wQ1Ls— Justin Baragona (@justinbaragona) February 13, 2020

  29. 29.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Barbara: I’d bet Misery isn’t far behind them. I think our local hospital is safe for the moment. I’m only betting my life that it is.

  31. 31.

    Gin & Tonic

    75 years ago today the Brits began the firebombing of Dresden (the Yanks continued it the next day.) Not the Allies’ finest hour, IMO.

  33. 33.

    Anne Laurie

    @Mai naem mobile: AOC has a new primary challenger –  Michelle Caruso Cabrera.

    AOC got into Congress by primarying a perfectly cromulent Democrat who’d gotten lazy after holding the seat for most of AOC’s life.  Since then, she’s pissed off some portion of her base, who complain she’s neglecting constituent service to chase media and promote leftists.  If you’re media-experienced and not otherwise employed, why *not* run against her?

    That’s the problem with the House two-year terms… Reps can never stop running, these days.  If not MCC, some or several others would be stepping up to primary her.  At the least, it’s a year of collecting campaign funds (not sure of the mechanics, but NYC has some kind of funding process for those who hit a certain threshold).  Depending on how things break in November, being a Proud Progressive Socialist-Hugger might turn out to be fatal to AOC’s career — even if one of her riskier statements doesn’t get her into real trouble.  And if you don’t defeat her, you can probably make a nice side gig out of the Wingnut Wurlitzer, explaining to MAGAt rubes how the Dems cheated this working-class Bronx/Queens community by supporting its coddled commie pet…

  35. 35.

    TS (the original)

    In my next life I am coming back as my neighbor’s cat, who looks and acts like darth’s model.

  37. 37.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Last night, my writer group critiqued a short story I wrote. Let’s just say that today I have many, many good choices for where this one needs to be stronger.

    @WaterGirl: The retaliatory firings and outpouring of vicious lunacy from the WH have left me beaten down too. It’s like being forced to watch someone torture a kitten.

  38. 38.

    satby

    Good morning all. Still lightly snowing here after starting last night around 5, but only about 2 inches instead of the higher amounts threatened.

    I had a depressing talk with my oldest son yesterday where he said he just wasn’t sure he’d even vote this year because “they all suck”. Since he and his brother spent every election for most of their childhoods helping me pass flyers door to door and running into the precinct to check in while I was an election judge, he’s never failed to vote before. I’m sure he ultimately will, at least in the general, but if our appalling media can muddy the story for someone like him it’s frightening. And yes, I’m working on him. He’ll come around.

  42. 42.

    zzyzx

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    “They will throw money at her like water at a housefire”

    And there you go. Step 1 is get money for the race, some of which you spend on fun things for yourself. Step 2 is to then become a conservative hero for taking on AOC and getting speaking gigs. Winning the seat would almost ruin it.

  49. 49.

    satby

    @Baud: the weird thing is he does NO social media and barely listens to news. He’s 37 and works 60 hours a week running a pizza franchise he’s in the process of buying. But in the bits and pieces of stuff he catches he’s heard nothing positive about anyone but Bernie (and he knows Bernie promises vaporware so he discounts it) AND he doesn’t hear the criminality of Trump (thankfully, he hates him) because our media barely notes it. My kid for the first time has become a low, almost no info voter. I’m just gobsmacked because I assumed that the brainwashing wouldn’t work on someone raised to be an engaged, rational citizen.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @rikyrah:

    Two are former GOPers

    If that includes Warren, she changed in the 1990s IIRC, and much of her good work has been as a Democrat.  Other than that, I agree it’s a shame that so many of our voters don’t care about this issue.

  53. 53.

    rikyrah

    The Culinary Union healthcare plan has no premiums or deductibles and covers dental, vision and prescriptions, so replacing it with whatever government thing Joe Manchin will allow probably freaks them out a little.— DSA Pinkerton Caucus (@agraybee) February 12, 2020

  54. 54.

    satby

    @debbie: that’s not my point because he ultimately will, and against Trump. My point was that the puke funnel of bullshit wears down even people who I wouldn’t have expected.

  55. 55.

    WaterGirl

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Just think how much better your story will be! :-)

    For decades, but particularly while I was in school, I wondered how the world could possibly have allowed Hitler and Germany to do what they did to the Jews.  And others.

    And now, our particular hell/purgatory is living through this – watching our democracy be willfully and deliberately destroyed – while feeling powerless to stop it.

  56. 56.

    Baud

    @rikyrah:

    Rachel asked Amy about that last night.  She said she has support in the black commmunity in MN, and that people in other places don’t really know her yet.

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @satby:

    I’m not surprised.  It’s why I get angry thinking about the negativity that the Bernie people directed towards Hillary in 2016.  That stuff seeps down into the general cukture and affects people who aren’t even paying attention.

  60. 60.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    There’s an interview with General Kelly in The Atlantic.  Too little, too late, but he lets loose on Trump.

    When Vindman heard the president tell Zelensky he wanted to see the Biden family investigated, that was tantamount to hearing “an illegal order,” Kelly said. “We teach them, ‘Don’t follow an illegal order. And if you’re ever given one, you’ll raise it to whoever gives it to you that this is an illegal order, and then tell your boss.’”

  61. 61.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: Rachel interviewed Klobuchar? Will have to check that out! I couldn’t bear to watch the news last night. The corruption of the DOJ and muted response to it is wearing me down.

  62. 62.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: I think this is our last blast of winter, not that we’ve had much winter to speak of. We’ve had a fair number of “snow events” but only 1 or 2 added up to more than 2 inches. Last nights started out like gangbusters but most of it melted before temps got below freezing. As far as cold goes, iirc we haven’t had any below 0 temps this year (tonight we’re supposed hit 2) or any sustained cold spells and by Sunday we should be sittin’ pretty for the Dawg parade at 59.

    Last week I killed 2 very sluggish skeeters. It’s gonna be a buggy year.

  63. 63.

    WaterGirl

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Is that General Put-Kids-In-Cages Kelly?

    He’s complicit in everything Trump does.  He was in a position to call it out before all this damage has been done, and continues to be done.  Too fucking little, too fucking late.

  65. 65.

    satby

    @rikyrah: I get that you hate Pete because you share shit on him tweets and hit pieces all the time about his lack of black support (and constantly ignore links of black supporters I provide).  But if you want the nominee to be a Democratic party member, and if black support seems to be swinging to Bloomberg from Biden, I’m not sure what the point is. It doesn’t appear we can have it both ways, but I’m waiting till Super Tuesday.

  66. 66.

    WaterGirl

    At least we have some snow. if we have to have winter, I want to have snow.

    I am not, however, speaking of snow that covers all your doors and windows.  Just looking at photos of that a few weeks ago gave me the willies.  :: shudder ::

  68. 68.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Nelle: When I went to sign up for a library card, I asked about writing groups because they sometimes have them. Turns out the Barrington Writers Workshop has met there for something like 30 years. And the library is right next door.

  69. 69.

    satby

    @Baud: it does. The same kid voted for Clinton last election but told me yesterday the “Clintons were corrupt”. He’s 6’5″ , so too tall for me to deck. But he was behind a counter when he said that just to be sure I wouldn’t try.

  70. 70.

    WaterGirl

    @satby: I don’t understand how or why the black vote would be swinging to Bloomberg.  Why is the audio of that racist piece of whatever talking about stop-and-frisk not being played everywhere, all the time???

    I am mostly staying away from BJ right now because I am filled with white-hot rage, and despair, and I don’t see what I can possibly contribute that is constructive.

  71. 71.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: He’s not brainwashed, he’s busy, and tired of wading thru a cesspool of bullshit in an attempt to sift out a nugget or 2 of truth. I know the feeling.

  72. 72.

    gvg

    @satby: I think it might be significant that you say he works 60 hours a week.  That is one of the things that contributes to the low voter turn out in the working class poor, working multiple jobs that add up to a lot of hours.  Becoming disengaged and low info because there is no time.  Historically some of the time the elites tend to encourage those conditions so they can run things to their liking.  Remind him of that.

    Tell him to just vote straight Democrat in November and that the discouragement is intentional on the part of bad faith actors.

    I get that he might be considered too prosperous to be called working class, but 60 hours a week is a big deal in a lifestyle.

  73. 73.

    WaterGirl

    @satby: Social media rules all.  Even if you’re not on it directly, you’re steeped in it all day, every day, if you read anything, talk to anyone, or watch any kind of news.

  74. 74.

    Joey Maloney

    @satby: You said it yourself, the boy works 60 hours a week. That’s the beauty of trying to survive late-stage capitalism: it keeps people too busy and exhausted to be engaged citizens.

  75. 75.

    Bruuuuce

    @Mai naem mobile:  As a constituent of AOC (in the Queens portion of her district, rather than the Bronx), I saw this in the news, took a quick look at the challenger, realized that she was (1) a relative Blue Dog by comparison, with no especially redeeming qualities, and (2) probably propped up by the Democratic machine in the city, which has issues with AOC (including the Amazon HQ2 incident). I personally have no intention of voting for the challenger, and from what I can tell from local news sources, AOC isn’t in serious trouble.

  76. 76.

    rikyrah

    The current stop-and-frisk discussion is supremely frustrating. The idea that “it was stopped”(passive voice)insults the thousands of young Black & Brown men who were victims; the grassroots activists who organized, & the civil rts attys, including @NAACP_LDF who sued to end it.— Sherrilyn Ifill (@Sifill_LDF) February 13, 2020

  78. 78.

    rikyrah

    @rikyrah:

     

    The Mayor didn’t “end it” when he found it was being overused. Lawyers, led by @theCCR, sued him. The Judge, Shira Scheindlin, was brilliant, fair and would not take any mess. The Mayor fought aggressively against the suit. The judge was frustrated by the 2nd Circuit & the City.— Sherrilyn Ifill (@Sifill_LDF) February 13, 2020

  79. 79.

    Jinchi

    @Baud: If that includes Warren, she changed in the 1990s IIRC, and much of her good work has been as a Democrat.

    I honestly don’t get this attack on Warren. She was registered as a Republican 30 years ago, when it was worth exactly one vote because she was not in politics. Her entire political life has been focused on policies that put her to the left of most of her Democratic peers.

    This simply does not compare to Bloomberg, who switched to the Republican party for the explicit purpose of getting elected mayor, spoke at RNC in praise of George Bush, fought to preserve “stop and frisk” in NYC, contributed millions to Republican politicians, and only switched back to the Democratic party in order to run for president.

  80. 80.

    JPL

    Today show just covered John Kelly’s defense of Vindman.   I won’t know what to believe until trump tweets.

  82. 82.

    rikyrah

    Isn’t it amazing how the @GOP suddenly doesn’t seem to care at all about Hunter Biden or Burisma? Almost like it was all complete bullshit—feigned outrage to create a false equivalence that somehow excused Trump’s crimes. And now that he’s “acquitted” they can stop pretending.— Andrew Wortman (@AmoneyResists) February 13, 2020

  83. 83.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @debbie: My older brother and I go back and forth on the “burn it all down” sentiment. The last time we talked politics I pointed out that that was exactly what trump was doing. He didn’t like it. Not because he had voted for trump but because he was pissed at being associated with trump. Then he realized it was true.

    He still dislikes politics but he no longer says he wants to burn it all down. At least not to me.

  86. 86.

    satby

    @Baud: the same answer applies to Pete. But the Berniacs correctly identified Pete as a threat early on and started the negative tweeting and mud-slinging, with great effect. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    It was also funny to read an entire thread about private vs M4A as epitomized by the unions in Nevada and see no one mention the guy currently first in delegates who specially stated M4A who wanted it as a consideration.

    There’s reasonable objections to his age and relative lack of experience that I can understand, but he keeps surprising you guys because you ignore him while he’s obviously resonating with a sizable chunk of voters. He may fade after super Tuesday, if he may keep surprising us. And then what do you all do if he’s the last regular Democrat standing?

    Edited for clarity.

  87. 87.

    Geminid

    Why I pay attention to the thoughts and actions of African American voters: 1) they do a whole lot of heavy lifting for the Democratic Party.  2) they have their feet on the ground in a way a lot of white liberals and “progressives” do not.

  88. 88.

    Jinchi

    @rikyrah: Isn’t it amazing how the @GOP suddenly doesn’t seem to care at all about Hunter Biden or Burisma?

    I know there have been 5 new scandals since Sunday, but Lindsay Graham literally just told us that Bob Barr is creating a direct line for Rudy Giuliani to funnel Burisma dirt to the DOJ. And Barr confirmed it.

    Republicans don’t care about corruption, but they’ll keep pushing Burisma-Biden until Biden’s campaign closes up shop.

  89. 89.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @WaterGirl: Last week I realized that even tho most of our snow has been in the 1-2″ range, it had been over a month without at least some snow on the ground (not full coverage)

  90. 90.

    rikyrah

    Biden is losing supporters to Bloomberg bc of $ & that’s f*cked up. Look, Bloomberg spent a lot of $ helping flip house districts across the country, & we’re grateful.But on what planet does a billionaire represent most of us? Haven’t we learned anything from the last 4 yrs?— Katie Hill (@KatieHill4CA) February 12, 2020

  91. 91.

    WaterGirl

    @rikyrah: All you have to do to see how awful that was is to watch the video you posted yesterday (I think) of the young man talking about stop and frisk and the total impact it had on his life, and still has.

    They did a great job of filming it, too, because those police cars were omni-present.  I’m sure it feels like a police state to young black men in particular. All those police cars everywhere. Everywhere!  That video was high impact.  It gave me just a glimpse of its awfulness, which can’t be a tenth of what it’s like to live it.  I hate these people so much.

  93. 93.

    Bruuuuce

    @Baud: I don’t have hard evidence. It’s a million little things that largely go by without notice. If I find something concrete that’s more than suggestive, I’ll pass it on. Until then, treat it as my firm gut feeling based on years of experience and observation of the city’s Dems and the various reactions (as for example, to the defeat of the strong liberal Queens AG candidate in the last Dem primary, the Amazon incident, and even the original defeat of Joe Crowley).

  94. 94.

    MomSense

    I got out of bed this morning and immediately regretted it.  Headache and feel ugh so I’m staying home and watching the snow fall.

    I think the thing that bothers me most about the way the primaries have gone so far is that the best candidates were out before the voting started.

    Part of the problem is that in the aftermath of the 2016 election the punditry and too many voters (we all consider ourselves pundits now) believed the loudest voices about what went wrong.  The loudest voices were white, male, and full of grievance.  They framed it as economic insecurity, not running progressive enough, too much identity politics, and DNC rigging the process.

    None of those things were true but the media encouraged that framing and a lot of candidates bought into it.  Even after the 2018 elections proved all of those lessons of 2016 wrong, we still followed the wrong lessons from 2016.  Warren foolishly thought the energy in the party was with the Bernie wing and that they they were policy and not personality driven.

    Meanwhile, the focus has been who can beat trump but not with enough focus on the electoral map or down ticket races.  The lack of strategic thinking about this election is inexcusable. This is not the year to test out whether Americans will get past the fear mongering about socialism that started early in the last century.

  96. 96.

    Kay

    @rikyrah:

    He’s pouring money and people into this. Last night I went to a candidate forum and debate and after there was an argument between 5 rural county chairs. They cooperate – act like a kind of regional, so they do stuff together. One of the 5, the most rural and smallest county, had invited a Bloomberg rep to be the keynote at the 5 county dinner. They don’t do that- if you invite one campaign to speak you invite all of them and one would never be chosen as the main speaker. My sense listening to it was the offending chair didn’t know it’s not done- I also suspect he doesn’t know what “keynote” means, so they spent 10 minutes talking past each other, but anyway. There’s only 19,000 people in his county- maybe 3 thousand Democrats? He’s getting this kind of personal attention from the Bloomberg campaign that they wrangled to be the only speaker at our dinner?

  99. 99.

    Jinchi

    @JPL: His policies on guns and his hatred of trump are things I support.

    Me too. But this doesn’t really distinguish him from the rest of the field.

  101. 101.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: @Baud:  You’re both correct. I’ve been saying a very long time that a number of people in this country are brainwashed by the propaganda put out by the media, both right wing and corporatist. And it’s frightening to me to see it work so well in one who should know better.

    Mom has already started countermeasures.

  103. 103.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud:  Bullshit. His opinion is the equivalent of no opinion. He’s saying “I don’t have time for this crap.” and it is crap. Reading one comment thread here proves that fact.

  106. 106.

    Avalune

    This marks the fifth Thursday of this week.

    It should have been Friday, two Thursdays ago.

    [WTB] Weekend [PST]

  107. 107.

    mrmoshpotato

    @satby:

    I had a depressing talk with my oldest son yesterday where he said he just wasn’t sure he’d even vote this year because “they all suck”. 

    How long did you stare at your kid with a “Are you fucking kidding me?” face?  I mean seriously.

  108. 108.

    MomSense

    @Jinchi:

    The problem is trying to understand it based on a left right continuum which is usually defined in a white-centric, economics based way. BIPoC, LGBTQ (in different ways), and other vulnerable communities are rightfully asking where these candidates have been on issues of their daily survival.  Even the all important economic issues cannot be assessed or addressed fairly without understanding how determinative race and racism have been.

  109. 109.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @Baud: He did learn a lesson just not the one she wanted him to learn. It’s like when a toddler holds his breath until you buy him that toy…and thinking “he’ll never do that again because holding your breath for that long is really unpleasant! He really learned that lesson.” Instead of, if I give in the lesson he’ll learn is that this is how he can get what he wants.

  111. 111.

    Immanentize

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Reading one comment thread here proves that fact.

    Now you hurt my feeling.  My last one.  I gave all the rest to the Snowy Holler Feeling Relief Fund.  I heard it was a worthy cause….

  115. 115.

    satby

    @debbie: agreed, it’s a huge trigger for me. As my kid well knows. It was an opening gambit in an enlightening discussion I hope. I will be doing the enlightening.

  117. 117.

    mrmoshpotato

    @WaterGirl:

    Is that General Put-Kids-In-Cages Kelly? 

    Yes, yes it is – also “foster care or whatever” for kids kidnapped from their desperate parents by the US government.

    Where will he be sitting in the dock once the American Nuremberg trials begin?

  119. 119.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us

    @rikyrah: Well, that may be a problem. Then again, African Americans may be like other voters. Right now they’re with Biden because he’s the guy they know, just like NH voters were with Biden a few weeks ago, because he’s who they know. Then they get a closer look at the alternatives AND a closer look at Biden and decide the alternatives are OK. Unless they’ve done or said something that’s far beyond the pale I don’t see why Mayor Pete or Amy can’t win them over.

    The alternative is they stick with Biden but everyone who has gotten a close up look at him has decided “no” so far so…that’s not inevitable. Or they go to Sanders but he has his own issues with them including saying nice things about George Wallace. Do Buttigieg or Klobuchar have anything that bad in their background? Or I guess Bloomberg or Steyer add blitzes could work but that’s not a sure thing. I have not been following the primary with all that much intensity but I haven’t heard anything about either of the top 2 centrist leaning candidates that would actively turn off African American voters. It could be out there and I haven’t seen it but it seems like either candidate could potentially win them over.

  122. 122.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Immanentize: I had all my feelings surgically removed. Except for one that the quack missed. And no, I’m not telling you people where it is cause then y’all will just stomp all over it.

  123. 123.

    Kay

    @mrmoshpotato:

    He “opposed” Trump in the most cowardly way possible. He sets the bar incredibly low. He will allow, for example, that “not all” immigrants are criminals and rapists. Put him down as “opposed” on that. In addition, he is opposed to government employees following illegal orders.

    These are givens. It is the lowest possible standard, he’s barely meeting even that, and they applauded him for his “bravery” at that event.

    That’s what happens when you lower standards. They’re lower. Even General Kelly can now crawl over the bar that is an inch above the dirt.

  124. 124.

    satby

    Well, I have to go to the market. Which will be dead, dead, dead. I’ll pick this back up in an hour or so. Everyone have a good day!

  127. 127.

    Soprano2

    @debbie: I heard that interview too.  The problem is that the reporter doesn’t feel like she can ask him “It’s been shown that people in the Trump administration lie frequently.  How do we know all of this isn’t a lie, and that Trump and Barr hadn’t already spoken about it before Trump tweeted?”  Did you notice that she didn’t even ask him about the four prosecutors who resigned, and what he thinks that means?  Until the press feels they can challenge people who support Trump’s actions with the fact that he and his administration lie all the time, you’ll get interviews like that one.

  128. 128.

    MomSense

    @Baud:

    It does though.  Her conversion was because of economics, especially her work understanding the causes of bankruptcy- very valid reasons.   People want to know  why the Reagan administration cruelty when the HIV/AIDS epidemic happened didn’t move her.  Why didn’t the Reagan dog whistling and attacks on the poor that were so obviously framed in a racist way enough to move her?  The point is that we as white people are moved to act when it affects us and the fact that we are oblivious to problems when they don’t affect us directly does not inspire a lot of confidence for the communities who are dealing with issues of survival daily. She should have at least had a good answer to that question that acknowledged her privilege.

  130. 130.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: Kay, that bar is actually way down in a pit that they dug just for Trump.  Even then, most Republicans can’t get over it.

  131. 131.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @satby: Mom has already started countermeasures.

    LOL. I’d love to be a fly on the wall to watch that. Mom is formidable.

  133. 133.

    Immanentize

    OT.  But has anyone else been getting the clear sense that search engines are getting worse at actually finding things?

    I know that there is a Henry Miller short story about a restaurant in a small Italian village (post WWII?).  I googlize to find it and the first several entries are for Henry fucking James.  I even got links to Herman Miller furniture.  Still can’t find the Henry MILLER short.

  136. 136.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us

    @satby: The media is obviously trying to keep this Dems in disarray narrative going as long as possible. I mean, first Buttigieg wins Iowa (at least the delegate count). Klobuchar, from a neighboring State, loses big there. Then she comes back and finishes a relatively distant third behind a near tie for first between Buttigieg and Bernie and everyone is like “the centrists can’t decide!!!” Buttigieg has been virtually ignored in the news media I consume since Klobuchar finished in third in NH – which granted I read the Washington Post and listen to NPR.

    The narrative right now could easily be this is a two person race between Mayor Pete and Sanders. If Klobuchar had finished third in both Iowa and NH maybe she’s in the mix too. But, she didn’t. I don’t have a problem with Amy, and really Warren is my first preference, but the fact that Buttigieg is not being talked about as a co-front runner is pretty mind boggling. Yeah, he’s relatively young and inexperienced, but…look who the F’ing President is!!! He’s far more qualified than that guy.

    I really don’t have a problem with Bernie’s platform but think he would be a terrible President and not get anything done, and we need someone capable of fixing shit, not just yelling about revolution and hoping that does the trick. If we can follow up 4 years of fail with successful governance our chances going forward are good. If we follow it up with 4 more years of fail the R’s are right back in charge…that’s what worries me about Bernie.

  138. 138.

    debbie

    @MomSense:

    Or that economics was more in her “wheelhouse” than other issues. Lots of people of all political bents were slow to understand there was an AIDS crisis. I’m not sure that’s a far bar to raise.

    If there’s going to be a purity test, can everyone please agree on just what it is? Too much hindsight, and that’ll be the only direction we take.

  141. 141.

    Betty Cracker

    @MomSense:

    Warren foolishly thought the energy in the party was with the Bernie wing and that they they were policy and not personality driven.

    Similar framing is expressed often here and by a number of people. I think it’s wrong.

    Warren has a decades-long history of consumer and anti-corruption activism and opposition to corporate conglomerates of all types, including pharma and banks. Issues like that have been her hobbyhorse for many years, inside and outside of politics.

    No one has to agree that those issues are the most pressing facing this country, let alone support Warren’s candidacy. But can we maybe credit her with having personal agency and convictions that don’t spring from Bernie Sanders?

    I mean, maybe Warren is an actual progressive who believes in progressive policies and thinks progressive Democrats can be an animating force in the party? It’s not crazy talk; progressives — not Berniacs, progressive Democrats — are a significant constituency in the party, after all.

    It just seems vaguely insulting (and borderline sexist sometimes), the repeated insinuations that Warren glommed onto Sanders’ policies and is making a play for “his” people.

    That’s an article of faith among some of the more obnoxious Sanders people. I wish the view wasn’t so prevalent here.

  142. 142.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I hope to god that Bloomberg isn’t the guy I wind up having to vote for, but this twitter exchange with Trump makes me laugh.

     

    Mini Mike is a 5’4” mass of dead energy who does not want to be on the debate stage with these professional politicians. No boxes please. He hates Crazy Bernie and will, with enough money, possibly stop him. Bernie’s people will go nuts!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 13, 2020

    .@realDonaldTrump – we know many of the same people in NY. Behind your back they laugh at you & call you a carnival barking clown. They know you inherited a fortune & squandered it with stupid deals and incompetence.
    I have the record & the resources to defeat you. And I will. https://t.co/fO4azmZaUg

    — Mike Bloomberg (@MikeBloomberg) February 13, 2020

  144. 144.

    Immanentize

    @mrmoshpotato: It’s true — I love Herman Miller furniture, but can’t really afford it.  But I can read short stories in the public domain!  I couldn’t even pull up a friggin list — like IMDB of all Miller short stories. Ok, I got frustrated and quit.

  145. 145.

    A Ghost To Most

    We’ve had a couple feet of snow here after a snowless January. I’ve been amused by the nativess complaining about how long the snow has stuck around (two weeks!). They would lose it if they had to endure a Michigan or WNY winter.

  147. 147.

    Baud

    @MomSense:

    People can ask about her past as they can with anyone, but I don’t think the answers will be very informative, especially since she wasn’t even in politics during that time and Republicans weren’t as uniformly extreme as they are now.

  149. 149.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: And, tying a number of threads together here, when she was a putative Republican, Warren was also a single mother trying to go to school, get her degrees, then compete at the highest level in a pretty rigorous and cut throat academic community to achieve tenure.  She was Satby’s son.  Exhausted.

  151. 151.

    Immanentize

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I started down that road, but the guy has fifty or more books and collections, anthologies, etc.  Like I said, I folded. But that will be my next avenue.
    Maybe it was a New Yorker piece? Ugh. I kinda wish I hadn’t half remembered it at all.

  153. 153.

    WaterGirl

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Where will he be sitting in the dock once the American Nuremberg trials begin?

    I think he should be made to stand in a cage, but that’s just me.

    As long as we get there.  We have got to win in November, with a turnout so ridiculously high that we will win in spite of their cheating.

  154. 154.

    TS (the original)

    @Immanentize:

    I always use the google advanced search – so would put “Henry Miller” in the exact phrase option & whatever other words you want to search for in the “all these words” options. I also find the options for specifying the site/domain & the time frame very useful,

  155. 155.

    Immanentize

    @Baud:
    Thank you!, But I looked at Henry Miller dot org (The Henry Miller Memorial Library) and it is almost useless when trying to find a short story.  They list all his books (40 books, collections and letters) but do not have a good list of book contents.  It was frustrating.

    I will just read some Nin and wonder about Monroe, I guess. ?

  156. 156.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Betty Cracker: But can we maybe credit her with having personal agency and convictions that don’t spring from Bernie Sanders?

    Thank you. Elizabeth Warren is brilliant and she came to her political philosophy through her own path, namely her academic research on bankruptcy in the US. That’s what woke her up and I don’t think it’s fair or reasonable to say she should have been illuminated in some other way than the one that affected her. People have different “conversion” triggers. She’s also a fundamentally decent human being, which shone through her speech the night of the New Hampshire primary. It’s worth watching.

    ETA: Also a shout-out to Imm’s comments about Elizabeth’s focus on sheer survival in her early (and even middle) adult years. I was raising two children in a bad marriage in the 80’s and paid nearly zero attention to politics (or, for example, to the AIDS crisis) because I was exhausted and had no emotional or head space for anything but survival. I voted Democratic because I always had. I don’t hold Elizabeth’s Republican roots against her, but rather applaud her embracing enlightenment when she was ready. I wish more people could/would do the same.

  158. 158.

    Immanentize

    @TS (the original): Thank you.  I haven’t used that function much — I will report back.

    Thanks All!  I remember when early search engines could quickly pull up really esoteric stuff based on vague descriptions.  But as MomSense says: CREAM.

  159. 159.

    Geminid

    Re Michelle Cabrera’s challenge to AOC: in the June 2018 14th NY Congressional primary, AOC won with 17,000+ votes to Crowley’s 14,000. By contrast in the June 2018 Va. 7th district primary, Abigail Spanberger pulled in 35,000 votes to the nearest of four competitor’s 20,000. The NY establishment’s strategy of separating congressional from statewide primaries to reduce turnout came back to bite them on the ass. I don’t know much about the district residents’ politics. Local reporting breaking down voting by precinct showed AOC and Crowley running even in mostly Hispanic and African American districts, with AOC’s margin of victory coming from whiter, “gentrifying” areas like Astoria (NY14 straddles SE Bronx and W Queens). I think AOC will win, but she’ll have to work a lot harder than Crowley did. Should be good debates.

  160. 160.

    Immanentize

    @O. Felix Culpa: I agree.  Warren’s speech was kind AND was a major anti-corruption statement.  Any wonder why it wasn’t carried live?

    I do not want purity or even slavish ideological consistency in a candidate. Rather, I want someone who is honest, genuinely concerned about people, curious and willing to learn. Her life is proof of those qualities.

  163. 163.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think she believes in the policies she is proposing. OTOH, her poltical strategy hasn’t worked for her yet, and I think it’s fair to say she hasn’t separated herself enough from Bernie to give enough non-Bernie voters a reason to look at her.  Hopefully, she can turn that around in the next few primaries.

  164. 164.

    geg6

    @satby:

    I go and vote for him, like I have voted for candidates all up and down the ticket about whom I wasn’t crazy since, oh, about 1977.

  165. 165.

    Baud

    @Dupe1970:

    That’s why Obamacare is the way it is.  But people have told themselves that corruption was the sole factor, so everything else can only be talked about in quiet rooms.

  167. 167.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: Winners and losers. Nobody wants to be a loser but it is certain there will be some. I still miss my carpenters insurance, always will.

  168. 168.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Immanentize: I do not want purity or even slavish ideological consistency in a candidate. Rather, I want someone who is honest, genuinely concerned about people, curious and willing to learn. Her life is proof of those qualities.

    Same here. Elizabeth has become such a fierce – and kind – warrior on behalf of progressive causes. She’s also been effective (see: CFPB) and I think she would be an effective President, if we can take the Senate and hold the House. That’s the same reason I would happily support Amy, even though she’s more moderate/centrist than I am.

  169. 169.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    Similar framing is expressed often here and by a number of people. I think it’s wrong.

    I do too. It doesn’t take into account that a lot of “Biden people” pick Bernie as a second choice, either. It also ignores that both Warren and Bernie picked up Castro’s immigration position, which doesn’t fit with the theme that they’re exclusively focused on economics and in some kind of rigid “lane”.
    I don’t know what’s going on but the contradictions to what we thought was going on are piling up. Biden didn’t carry white working class areas in NH. Bernie did. Bernie’s vote share with younger voters in NH exceeded that of all the other candidates combined. Pete is supposed to be the generational change candidate, or that’s part of his pitch.

  170. 170.

    MomSense

    @Betty Cracker:

    I heard it from my son who heard it from his close friend and classmate who works closely with Warren and her staff because he is a lawyer for a big union in Mass.  Before this he worked on two presidential campaigns in 2016. They thought her path was to bring the leftists and the liberals together and that if they threw enough “red meat” (primaries were rigged, M4All) at the berners they would come around.

    Make of it what you will, but it looks like she tried the non-aggression pact with him and adopted his Medicare for all even though his plan didn’t have the same quality of detail as all of her other plans. She defended it for a long time until people expected her to be accountable for the details and gave him a pass.  She even stayed quiet about his comments on a woman not being electable.

  172. 172.

    Fair Economist

    @Kay:

    It doesn’t take into account that a lot of “Biden people” pick Bernie as a second choice, either.

    The polls showed that, but when people actually switched from Biden they mostly went elsewhere. I think the truth is that most people, even now, know little about any of the candidates – but they still form opinions when they learn.

  173. 173.

    MomSense

    @Betty Cracker:

    This is why I really don’t like discussing politics here.  I didn’t say she glommed onto his policies.  I didn’t say anything remotely sexist about her. I said she thought the energy in the party was with him and because of the media coverage, the social media popularity of the squad, etc that was an understandable perception.

    ETA why the hell would it be sexist to think she would make a play for his supporters?  Aren’t candidates going to try to get people who support other candidates to switch their support?

  175. 175.

    Kay

    @Fair Economist:

    I don’t think it’s as Bernie-centric as you-all are making it. It’s all evaluated thru this Bernie lens and it keeps crashing into contradictions and it will continue to do so. Pete attacked Warren and Bernie in Iowa- I have no problem with this- he wanted to win Iowa, saw huge weakness in the center lane (true- it is fractured), so he hit Left. Warren isn’t magically excluded from that because we hate Bernie and like Warren. Amy K hit Pete to cut his support in NH. The most dedicated Bernie people saw that as good for Bernie. It didn’t have anything to do with Bernie. Amy K, all by herself, wanted to win.

    It’s all the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” thinking. I don’t believe in it. I don’t think it works.

  176. 176.

    Kay

    @Fair Economist:

    This is just one poll, but it’s recent:

    Among all registered voters, Democratic candidates lead President Trump in general election matchups by between 4 and 9 percentage points, with Bloomberg claiming the biggest numerical lead against Trump:

    • Bloomberg tops Trump 51 – 42 percent;
    • Sanders defeats Trump 51 – 43 percent;
    • Biden beats Trump 50 – 43 percent;
    • Klobuchar defeats Trump 49 – 43 percent;
    • Warren wins narrowly over Trump 48 – 44 percent;
    • Buttigieg is also slightly ahead of Trump 47 – 43 percent.

    The same people who put Sanders ahead also put Bloomberg ahead. I think this has to be reckoned with, in some fashion, if only to say “we might not know what these people are thinking and doing”

  177. 177.

    MomSense

    @Immanentize:

    That would be a great answer.  Say that then.  Turn it into a statement that shows you understand the struggle and why people would need reassurance that you will be there for them.

    Its not like she is the only politician who has to go back and explain things from the past.  Obama has to respond to claims he was angling for the presidency in kindergarten.

    When we ask candidates about support for the crime bill they will have to explain it, that it was supported by the Congressional Black Caucus at the time and that even though it addressed some of the problems that existed then, it caused terrible harm. We have to take responsibility for those consequences and learn those lessons as we try to reform the criminal justice system now.

  178. 178.

    Kay

    @Fair Economist:

    The pro-Bernie people won’t do it either. They’ll crow about his general election polls but ask them why Bloomberg and Bernie might be 1st and 2nd – if perhaps there’s some possible error in the operating assumption that it’s all about Bernie- and see how far you get with that. They omit it.

  179. 179.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: I think your previous theory resonates — and made me rethink.  People want the person who will beat Trump.  It has not much to do with ideology, but a whole lot to do with “electability.”. And specifically, who can crush Trump.  I really dislike Bloomberg with a hot passion.  More than the hot passion with which I dislike Bernie.  But Bloomberg recognizes that beating Trump is what people want.  More than plans, more than economic revolution.  Who will beat Trump?  The answer looks like “everybody” but we found out about that in 2016.

  181. 181.

    Immanentize

    It is so far from being humorous now — The dead tree version of the NY times literally! has a sub-headline on the front page:

    “Democrats in Disarray”

    I shit you not.

  182. 182.

    rp

    @Betty Cracker:

    I mean, maybe Warren is an actual progressive who believes in progressive policies and thinks progressive Democrats can be an animating force in the party? It’s not crazy talk; progressives — not Berniacs, progressive Democrats — are a significant constituency in the party, after all.

    This is a bit of a strawman. I don’t think anyone is arguing that she adopted progressive policies in a cynical attempt to attract Sanders’ voters or that her views and proposals aren’t a genuine reflection of who she is. The argument is that, as a political strategy, she decided to frame her candidacy as being closely aligned with Sanders and as something of a Democratic outsider. Hence her refusal to draw clear distinctions between herself and Sanders and her (extremely half-hearted) endorsement of the view that Sanders was somehow robbed in 2016. I think it was a mistake to position herself as Sanders’ heir instead of Clinton’s heir; i.e., a more progressive version of the woman who was robbed of the Presidency in 2016. That’s a question of framing, not ideology.

  183. 183.

    Hoodie

    @Betty Cracker:  True, and there’s nothing wrong with going for some of Bernie’s supporters, but I think Warren’s problem is more that she brought a knife to a gun fight.  Bernie discredits progressive policies with his refusal to answer practical questions, his shady leftist origins, weird campaign staff and cultish followers.  She waited too long to take him on and did it in an ineffective, ham handed way that does not attack his weaknesses.  No one has made any inroads by attacking his racial and gender insensitivities.  The way you attack him is by showing that he’s a bullshit artist.   By way of contrast, Klobuchar is much more subtle at putting a knife in her rival, hitting Pete’s “earnest young man” schtick by making him seem like a dilettante.  It was a cheap shot, but it worked because it’s kind of true, i.e., Pete does seem to be a bit of a contrived product of McKinsey market research. (Is that true? Eff if I know.)

    They might not admit it, but a lot of people like their presidential candidate to be capable of being cold-blooded or mean without being a total monster.   Presidents sometimes have to do unsavory shit.   Remember that moment in 2008 when Obama hit Hillary with that somewhat nasty “you’re likeable enough” comment? It was a cheap shot, but it both showed his ability to be mean and highlighted her self-consciousness about owning the hardass label, which is related to that largely nonsensical inauthenticity label that has dogged her for years.  I sometimes think she would have done better against Trump if she went total asshole towards him because, god knows, he warrants it and a lot of people would not have viewed it as out of character for her.   So, for example, when asked if there was anything positive to say about Trump, say “nothing jumps to mind” instead of some weak nonsense about him genuinely caring about his nimrod kids, which probably isn’t even true.   Look how Bloomberg talks about him.

  184. 184.

    bemused

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I want to scream when I hear or read people who say “burn it all down”. Glad you pointed out it’s been the goal of trump and his mafia. I always want to ask what people what’s the plans after the everything is burned down. They have no plans to rebuild a better America other than to enrich themselves with money and power.

    When trying to teach our kids about consequences when they had hare brained and possibly dangerous ideas, I’d ask “then what” and eventually the wheels started turning.

  185. 185.

    Betty Cracker

    @MomSense: If it wasn’t clear in my response that I was talking about more than just your comment but rather a persistent theme around here among the anti-Warren commenters, I made my point clumsily, and I’m sorry for that. Of course Warren is aiming at some of the same voters as Sanders — everyone running is, to greater or lesser extents — and there’s nothing sexist about pointing that out.

    But it is at least borderline sexist, IMO, to call Warren Sanders’ “mini-me” (a common refrain) and insinuate that she adopted Sanders’ policies in a cynical attempt to co-opt his supporters rather than because she believes what she says. At the very least, it suggests she lacks agency and convictions of her own. I heard that echo in your comment. If that’s not what you meant, I apologize.

  186. 186.

    Immanentize

    @rp: I think you are giving people too much credit, because how I read B. Cracker’s comment was as responsive to the “Warren was a Republican” thread in this discussion as it was to her strategy.

     

    As I understand the complaint, it is that Warren is just a calculating empty suit who chose her positions solely in a Sanders tactic.  That is the best  argument the Sanders people have against — that Warren is just a derivative also-ran.   This Sanders- centric view of Warren’s core is what I find offensive and yes, perhaps includes more than a whiff of sexism.

  187. 187.

    Immanentize

    @Hoodie:

    They might not admit it, but a lot of people like their presidential candidate to be capable of being cold-blooded or mean without being a total monster.

    Trump and Bloomberg both understands this. Hell, it is part of the job description. Remember Hillary’s 3am call commercial against Obama? It was so widely discussed, argued about, mocked because it resonated deeply

  188. 188.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    That’s my local, anecdotal impression. I’m hearing the targeted Bloomberg ads too and they will be appealing to Democrats here- a huge focus on investing in infrastructure and a promised huge (money) investment in education. The ad I hear is specifically about “small towns”. Unlike on the national scene, both Democrats and Republicans support public education here. Higher income Republicans especially.

    Trump, IMO, made a huge error not doing a giant first term infrastructure push. It is wildly popular. He’s too mean-spirited and small and he hires stupid people to have pulled it off and he much prefers his bellowing bullshit to something big and bipartisan, but Democrats would have been in an absolute box if he has put forth something good. I am going to hear “infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure” from Bloomberg here and that’s smart. I think he may surprise us with white working class.

  190. 190.

    Immanentize

    @bemused:

    When trying to teach our kids about consequences

    Having a child (or several) seems to be one of the most humanizing acts. Now not everyone becomes a better human. But I can tell you that my instincts toward “burn it all down” pretty much disappeared when I held the wee Immp in the hospital on April 20, 2001.

  192. 192.

    Nelle

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Thank you!  The wind is strong and current windchill is -38.  I have a sleeping heater on my chest in the form of my granddaughter,  who in about two hours, will be one year old.  What a smiling antidote to the foul political scene she has been.

  194. 194.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: Also, Trump is so vulnerable on DeVos.  I am certain he had to pay back Amway, but I don’t know anyone, including the Trump curious I know, who gave anything but contempt for DeVos.  People involved at all levels of education — kids in elementary to being in grad school — they all hate her for making their lives and the lives of the students they love more difficult and more uncertain.

  195. 195.

    MomSense

    @Betty Cracker:

    She adopted a vague ass Medicare 4 All plan because the leftist wing definitely made that a litmus test. Harris made the same mistake.  She dropped it a little earlier, but still a big mistake.  I think most of them endorsed it before the midterms when it became clear that it didn’t have nearly the support they thought.

  196. 196.

    Kay

    My middle son, who is a reliable Democratic voter, had what I thought was a good question about “green jobs”. He’s an industrial electrician and he is doing a huge factory expansion and part of the expansion is a switch to 40% alternate energy. Now, obviously, they train to install the newer systems but he pointed out that they train THEM. Him. The same people who used to put in the old systems. Obviously that’s easier than just pulling someone in and starting from scratch. He thinks Lefties are not understanding the gradual and really organic nature of this- they’re rolling the old brown energy workforce into the green energy workforce. Same people. When one declines the other rises, but it’s a replacement, not an addition.

  197. 197.

    Mai naem mobile

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    @Baud:

    @Anne Laurie: if you’re doing an vanity run wouldn’t you just do it just as a  Republican? It’s less work in a blue district and you still get the publicity  from debating AOC. I think  MCC may be trying to take AOC off the road helping GOTV efforts  around the country or they’ve got some ratfucking plans.

  198. 198.

    Immanentize

    @rp: I do think, like Ms. Cracker points out, that some have fallen into the lazy? ‘mini-me’ description of Warren vis a vis Sanders.  Now that you are aware of it, you might see it more here?  Like seeing the car you just bought suddenly everywhere on the street.

  199. 199.

    bemused

    @Immanentize:

    At least most kids do absorb there are consequences to their actions on other people from parents or mentors and they figure out they want to be decent people and not assholes.

    Trump and his gang are irredeemable and not only don’t care who or how many they harm, they enjoy being cruel

  200. 200.

    Served

    @Kay: Bloomberg is the only candidate running daily ads on a very inside baseball state politics blog here in Illinois.

    He’s carpet-bombing the zone, more effectively than Steyer ever did, and it’s working.

    I think what that says about our democracy is troubling, and the media treatment of him so far is very hands-off in a way that is reserved for the “successful” (wealthy), but it’s working.

    We currently have a very successful and very effective billionaire governor who self-funded to beat our previous self-funded megarich Republican governor who also hijacked the state GOP via funding during his time in office.

    I’m extremely conflicted around the entire state of affairs.

  201. 201.

    Kay

    @Immanentize:

    My favorite thing! DeVos!

    There’s this fascinating thing happening in Ohio. Okay, the DeVos aligned lobbies pushed thru a really big private school voucher bill. But they’re dumb and they’re ideologues so they didn’t consider existing systems at all. 

    Half the public school superintendents in the state went bananas because they were in the path of this budget disaster, and they have to PLAN. The GOP majority legislature panicked and stayed the law while they scramble frantically to fix the big fucking mess they made, and the GOP leader yesterday came out with what sounded like an Elizabeth Warren-ish defense of the school districts. Cats and dogs! It’s zany. And DeVos is behind the whole mess.

    I’m delighted.

  202. 202.

    The Moar You Know

    .@realDonaldTrump – we know many of the same people in NY. Behind your back they laugh at you & call you a carnival barking clown. They know you inherited a fortune & squandered it with stupid deals and incompetence.

    I have the record & the resources to defeat you. And I will. t.co/fO4azmZaUg

    — Mike Bloomberg (@MikeBloomberg) February 13, 2020

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:  Bloomberg can do something nobody else in this race can do – and it’s not something that makes me want to vote for him more as I’ve got no real interest in it but it’s fun to watch – he can humiliate Trump.  Personally.  Strip the skin right off his fat ass.  So I hope he stays in for a good long time.

  203. 203.

    Kay

    @Served:

    I’,m not conflicted- I’m opposed- but like you I see this happening and I’m well aware of my limited ability to “stop” things. I can’t really “stop” Michael Bloomberg.

  204. 204.

    Immanentize

    @MomSense: I think you might be half right on this.  I think that Warren believes deeply in universal health care and that the best way to deliver on that is through government insurance (which by the way is market based). Ok, great position.

    But as you say, she fell into the M4All black hole of despair where only Sanders need not provide any details because he has been saying it for years.

    So yes, I think that was a huge mistake, but one not necessarily trying to beat Sanders, but rather trying (and not succeeding) at using a shortcut phrase that used to resonate with voters (check the 2018 polling) but now is toxic for all. (Which is why Harris put up her hand, too) Even Sanders has pretty much quit talking about M4All.

    It was only a bad strategy because the ground shifted dramatically on the use of that shorthand. And the ground shifted because of massive media and powerful rich folks pushing an all-out against it. And we are now judging people’s past decisions based on the present understanding, not the then. That’s fine. But it wasn’t a mistake until it was in the past

  205. 205.

    Served

    @Kay: I shouldn’t be conflicted, honestly.

    All it takes is one “bad” billionaire ruler, and the entire thing is disrupted. We got semi-lucky with a benevolent one after the bad one nearly destroyed our entire human services infrastructure. The next bad one won’t mess it up.

  206. 206.

    The Moar You Know

    Where will he be sitting in the dock once the American Nuremberg trials begin?

    @mrmoshpotato: Nuremburg was essentially a set of show trials for public consumption.  12 people were executed for war crimes.  12.  Does anyone think only 12 people ran the entire Holocaust?

    The vast majority of those guilty of the genocide went on to serve in the West German government and died, wealthy and successful, in very comfortable beds.

    We need some form of actual justice here, not show trials.  I’ll be the first to admit I have no idea what form that should or could take.

  207. 207.

    Nelle

    @Immanentize: In my experience, reference librarians, particularly at university libraries are quite keen on the hunt for answers to questions like yours.  If you go fo Wkipedia, there is a list of places that have his papers.  With the onset of googling, they often don’t get enough chance to flash their prowess.

    Somehow, my husband has gotten great results from this.  He, who was in Vietnam with the American Navy, was trying to help our neighbor’s father, who was fighting with the Vietnamese Navy, go find more info on a particular campaign.  It took  several research librarians at several institutions to find the report these two vets wanted.  The librarians were quite triumphant.  (Seceral friends are archivists..they live for this stuff.)

  208. 208.

    Kay

    @Served:

    I’m disappointed that Bloomberg is a liar. I know he’s a Republican and I know he’s an economic conservative, but his claims on stop and frisk are just lies. I think the most corrosive part of Trump is the lying. I wish Bloomberg had made a commitment to not do that. Especially him, because he is demanding that Democrats trust him at his word that he will be even nominally a “Democrat”. But I can’t “stop” a billion dollars so I just have to hope.

    I don’t know if he’ll even back Democrats in congressional races, let alone have “coattails”. Why should I l believe him?

  210. 210.

    Geminid

    A small but illustrative point ( I hope) about why I like E Warren: in her green new deal plan, instead of an abstract call for green agricultural practices, she calls for a tenfold increase in the Soil Conservation program. Not trying to reinvent the wheel. Understands the wheel we have, and how to improve it.

  212. 212.

    Immanentize

    @Kay: People in higher education were certainly exasperated by Obama’s regulations.  (I can’t really speak to primary Ed).  But in the end, all the people most affected institutionally — bursars, financial aid people, comptrollers, admission professionals, title IX officers; you know, the people who actually run universities — were glad for the clarity of previously really vague rules and understood that Obama’s regs were always intended to help students. They missed the mark sometimes or made new problems, but everyone accepted that they were being enacted to improve student lives.

    Now it’s the opposite. It’s just chaos and they hate it.

  213. 213.

    artem1s

    @Kay: “we might not know what these people are thinking and doing”

    I am highly suspicious of national polls.  GOPers can’t be trusted to tell the truth and many more will say undecided when they really aren’t.

  214. 214.

    Immanentize

    @Nelle: I will get my school’s research librarians on it.  They do love such a challenge.  They have to station a research desk at the library in shifts and these requests are like high quality drugs for them.  But I like trying myself, too.

    The story is amazing because it is about a peddler who comes into this restaurant on Friday night and observes all of the traditional of the Jewish Sabbath, although he is Catholic.  I must find it again, I probably even have a hard copy somewhere….

  218. 218.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Mai naem mobile: I brain farted on the “primary” aspect of it, so most of my “analysis” makes little sense and what’s left that does make sense is pretty generic stuff that could apply to any race.

  219. 219.

    Geminid

    I don’t think Michelle Cabrera is on a vanity trip. She’s had plenty of recognition for a career as a reporter and anchorwoman. I think she has sincerely held economic beliefs that differ from AOC’s, and wants to debate them. Like, was the Amazon deal good or bad for the people of the 14th NY district. As for tying AOC down to prevent GOTV efforts, AOC will have plenty of time to campaign for people after the June primary, just like she had in 2018. Of course, she used some of that time to try to defeat Sharice Davids in Kansas….but that’s a different story.

  220. 220.

    Kay

    @debbie:

    least pandering of all of the candidates.

    I love her and I think she’s a tad pander-y. I also wish she would stop using the same intense emphasis on every word and everything she says. I feel like it weakens her points.
    What I have learned that surprised me is I’m more temperamentally suited to Amy K. – I’m comfortable with the way she speaks and I admire that she has decided to not pretend she’s “warm” if she’s not, and she’s not. I think that’s risky for a woman. Not everyone has to open a vein and share. Not all people are like that. We can have a variety of types of people :)

    Obama was sometimes a little cold, which I liked.

  221. 221.

    Mai naem mobile

    I had only seen a couple of Bloomberg ads on teevee here. I saw the Trumpovs America  one on Twitter yesterday  which is very well.done. I watched a lot of the others yesterday. Jeezus, they’re really well done. I would like to know why the other Dem candidates doing this stuff? It does not look expensive . It’s basically clips put together from teevee and stock footage

  222. 222.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @satby:

    then what do you all do if he’s the last regular Democrat standing?

    If he’s the nominee, then we fight like hell to put him in the White House!

  223. 223.

    Kay

    @debbie:

    It’s hard to explain why I so connect with Amy K’s manner of speaking. I’ll give you an example. She was telling a story about having a baby- ok, nothing is as sort of soft-focus Hallmarky as having a baby, but having a real baby is NOT actually like that. I want the having a real baby story.

    In this story she said “so we had the baby and we thought it would be great” and I just think women aren’t allowed to say that, but she did. It wasn’t “great” because the baby was sick and she was subject to stupid health insurance and hospital policy, so that’s the policy point, but to say that so bluntly? Women aren’t allowed to. She did.

  224. 224.

    Geminid

    @Mai naem mobile:  making the ads is relatively cheap. Buying the TV time is a different story. But I agree the other candidates’ ads seem less effective. Maybe because they are trying to draw distinctions between themselves and their competitors. Bloomberg is running just against Trump, for now. Once his opponents have knocked enough of each other out, I expect Blomberg will start stomping on the survivors. While still running ads against Trump.

  227. 227.

    Mai naem mobile

    @Geminid: i rarely watch CNBC since Trumpov won but I used to watch it semi regularly before. It’s a free country and she can do what she wants but from what I’ve seen Michelle Caruso Cabrera is a better fit for the GOP then the Dems. Her views on social stuff might be liberal but that’s expected from NY Repubs anyway. Why not just run against AOC in the general?  Just FYI I am not any big AOC backer. I think she’s got some great raw poltical talent but she needs more experience just like any newbie would.

    Re: the Bloomberg ads. If the other Dems had done similar ads I think the ads would have gone viral.  Sure you aren’t going to get the same exposure as teevee but its enough and the right people i.e. the base voters .

  228. 228.

    debbie

    @Kay:

    I admire that she has decided to not pretend she’s “warm” if she’s not, and she’s not. I think that’s risky for a woman.

    Pretending is never good, but that is a risky thing.

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