Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

In after Baud. Damn.

In my day, never was longer.

The willow is too close to the house.

No one could have predicted…

The snowflake in chief appeared visibly frustrated when questioned by a reporter about egg prices.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

So very ready.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. do not congratulate. this is not business as usual.

Fear or fury? The choice is ours.

Stay strong, because they are weak.

He really is that stupid.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2020 / Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Keep Hope Alive

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: Keep Hope Alive

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Meanwhile:


(Yes, I too wish Harris was still in this race. We can dream… )

Reader Interactions

238Comments

  4. 4.

    NotMax

    Holy moly. Can’t speak as to whether the upcoming movie will be any good or a hot mess but that’s one hellluva impressive cast as shown and listed toward the end of the trailer.

  6. 6.

    Betty Cracker

    All the research I’m aware of says personal voter-to-voter outreach is the most effective voter mobilization method. That squares with advertising principles for any product: people trust peers more than organizations peddling a pitch.

    I wonder if there’s ever been a study comparing the effectiveness of door-to-door canvassing vs. handwritten postcards from voters? Quick Google search turned up nothing.

    Personally, I’d rather receive a postcard than a knock on the door, and I’d rather write postcards than canvass. But I’m sort of a hermit, so my preferences may not be widespread.

  7. 7.

    tokyocali (formerly tokyo expat)

    Good evening, from the other side of the globe.

    Sent my ballot in to California today. I hope Customs does a little better with official ballots. When the post office hears I’m sending mail to the US, they always let me know that I should expect it to take 10 days to 2 weeks. It used to take a lot less.

    Happy to read that Nevada turnout has been up. Over 50% of Saturday’s voters were new voters. I hope that trend continues.

  12. 12.

    Chyron HR

    Bernie supporters, including those who’d made up their minds for Sanders, were almost universally complimentary about Warren. And all were courteous. A disheartening reminder that this website is not the real world he’s going to be carried to the nomination by people who have no idea what an evil old bastard he actually is.

  16. 16.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Betty Cracker: Good because now he can answer for all of the sexist and racist comments he has made as well as explaining why he supported the “stop and frisk” policy as late as last year. He has a whole lot of explaining to do.

  17. 17.

    OzarkHillbilly

    A long read, but worth the trip:

    I have come to Moria on the hunt for hope. It began with a letter to the Guardian from an aid worker there. He was concerned that the notorious camp’s portrayal in the media was relentlessly negative. But working there, he said, was an amazing experience; every day, he witnessed acts of kindness by extraordinary people. It gave him faith in humanity.

    You will have heard about the desperate conditions, the overcrowding, the fires, the riots, the unaccompanied minors, the trauma, sexual exploitation, rape and murder. I am here to see if there is another, more positive side to Moria.

    Bloody hell, that looks unlikely. “Moria no good,” is the chorus to my time at the camp. The same issues come up again and again: the fear and the cold at night, freezing showers, the unreliable supply of water, no electricity, queueing for hours for food, for months, years or for ever for permission to leave the island. Then there are the fights that break out among the frustrated, angry, bored young men who make up a high proportion of those living here. Just before my arrival, a 20-year-old Yemeni man was fatally stabbed, the second death this year. No one came here for this.

    Moria is hell, a stain on 21st-century Europe, where bureaucracy, politics and simply not caring enough have left tens of thousands in limbo – people fleeing war and danger, looking for a future for themselves and their children and not finding it. Moria’s existence is a disgrace, a failure of morality.

    Yet, somehow, a sort of life goes on; humanity survives in hell. I am here for three days – two alone, then another with the photographer Byron Smith – and experience so much goodwill and humour.

    I am offered warm flatbread fresh from one of Moria’s many ovens, sunflower seeds from kids, shisha from a bunch of Iraqi lads standing around a fire. Language is sometimes a problem, but it turns out it is possible to discuss the demise of Manchester United through sign language. There are more people here from Afghanistan than from any other country and I end up talking to more Afghans than anyone else, but I also meet people from Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, South Sudan, Nigeria, Burundi, Zimbabwe and even Myanmar.

    These are the people Republicans fear and hate.

  18. 18.

    Patricia Kayden

    Thanks Obama!

    Unemployment rate Bush’s last full month: 7.2%Unemployment rate Obama’s last full month: 4.7%Current unemployment rate: 3.6%Times US hit 4% quarterly GDP growth under Obama: 4Times US hit 4% quarterly GDP growth under Trump: 0 t.co/npaj0xDopV— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) February 17, 2020

  21. 21.

    debbie

    I’ve decided to vote early. I want one candidate and nothing will change that. Should that candidate drop out before the primary, my vote still would not be for any of the candidates I don’t want.

  24. 24.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kraux Pas: I mean, since we live in a Citizens United-compromised democracy, kudos to Steyer for supporting a lot of great Democratic candidates over the years and building support for impeachment with an expensive ad blitz. But his presidential run has been a pointless vanity campaign. Instead of setting those millions on fire, I wish he’d supported the viable candidate he agrees with most or invested in GOTV efforts or down-ticket races. He wasted our time.

  26. 26.

    Baud

    A heartening reminder that this website is not the real world and most Sanders supporters sound nothing like Bernie Twitter.

    Many Trump supporters are perfectly cordial if you meet them on the street.  That real life doesn’t mirror the internet doesn’t address the criticism.

  28. 28.

    wvng

    I made the mistake of going to Twitter to read President Obama’s tweet, and found it followed by “you lie” responses by trolls. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised, but still. It really shouldn’t be impossible to admit to the clear statistics.

  30. 30.

    debbie

    @debbie:

    Yep, it bothered him bigly.

    Did you hear the latest con job? President Obama is now trying to take credit for the Economic Boom taking place under the Trump Administration. He had the WEAKEST recovery since the Great Depression, despite Zero Fed Rate & MASSIVE quantitative easing. NOW, best jobs numbers….— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 17, 2020

    ….ever. Had to rebuild our military, which was totally depleted. Fed Rate UP, taxes and regulations WAY DOWN. If Dems won in 2016, the USA would be in big economic (Depression?) & military trouble right now. THE BEST IS YET TO COME. KEEP AMERICA GREAT!— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 17, 2020

    Whatever it is he has for breakfast, I hope he chokes on it.

  31. 31.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @JPL:You mean the ones that are pro life…

    I mean them all. Every last one of them share trump’s xenophobia.

  32. 32.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @debbie:

    I just went and checked and there are tweets saying Obama was trying to take credit for the “Trump economy.” They were too literate to be written by Trump but I’m sure they capture his reaction!

    ETA: I see you looked too. The use of “depleted” was what made think Trump didn’t write those, but as you said, he’s not happy.

  35. 35.

    different-church-lady

    A heartening reminder that this website is not the real world and most Sanders supporters sound nothing like Bernie Twitter.

    Unfortunately Twitter is the only reality the media cares about now.

  38. 38.

    Immanentize

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Ha!  Dershowitz is now a fake news source in the fever swamp.

    PS I don’t think Dersh would ever attack Soros. But maybe he has even lost his semitic protection focus.

  40. 40.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: I mean them all. Every last one of them share trump’s xenophobia.

    Yes, they do. They’re deeply uncomfortable with white people who don’t think exactly like them or go to the same churches, so not-white people worshipping in different languages is frightening.

  43. 43.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Betty Cracker: It is good. I think the main reason Bloomberg’s doing so well all of a sudden is that the only thing most people know of him is his ads, which make him out as forthrightly anti-Trump and not much else. Beyond that, he’s a cipher that people can project anything onto–his awful recent past just gets buried. He needs to be up there on the stage with the knives out for him.

  44. 44.

    Baud

    Steyer would have a better billionaire than Bloomberg.

    I’m really out of tune with Democratic voters.

  45. 45.

    schrodingers_cat

    If BS-is-my-friend Warren doesn’t get the highest number of delegates does she throw her support behind the Vt Senator?

  48. 48.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: I really think Dem voters just want to beat Trump.  No matter who it is, as long as Trump is gone.  What happens the day after doesn’t matter much at all.

  49. 49.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: Did you see Bloomberg ad about the bully in the WH ? It says what all of us are thinking. Yesterday’s ad about the BS cult was pretty good too.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @Immanentize:

    I agree.  That’s the only reason Bloomberg is doing as well as he is.  A lot of people who aren’t in the Bernie camp don’t have confidence in the Dem candidates.

  56. 56.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    I’m really out of tune with Democratic voters.

    No-one has yet voted for Bloomfield, the media & the ads are ramping him up but I’m waiting for the votes.

  57. 57.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: It is interesting — 2/3 don’t have confidence in Sanders.  But they don’t have confidence in anyone else yet.  Lots of casting about.

  60. 60.

    Baud

    @TS (the original):

    I agree. But unless he bombs the debate tomorrow, I doubt his poll numbers will collapse.  Some significant set of voters find him interesting, and I assume most of that is lack of confidence in the other candidates.

  64. 64.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Bernie seems to have won the hearts of about a quarter and a third of our voters, which is no small feat, and it benefits him in a fractured field. It does seem like the other candidates have decided not to challenge him directly, which has also helped him.

  65. 65.

    Immanentize

    @Kraux Pas: who knows?  It’s not my recipe for success, certainly.  But it is possible that Dems really mean it when they say, “Anyone but Trump.”. Which means maybe anyone can beat him, including a nasty richy rich like Bloomberg.

  68. 68.

    Princess

    @Immanentize: It does. And someone made that point on twitter, and the Boston Globe’s Michael Cohen came back and said it was Warren’s own fault because of her poor fourth place showing in Iowa. You can’t make this up.

    (She came third and outperformed her polls)

  70. 70.

    schrodingers_cat

    Someone has unearthed a video of BS praising the Soviet Union. Democratic Socialist my ass. He was a Communist sympathizer during the Cold War. Must say that Putin is thorough. Heads he wins tails we lose.

  71. 71.

    Baud

    @Immanentize:

    I don’t predict losses.  But with Bernie, I think the entire election turns on the Midwest Obama-to-Trump states and Iowa and Pennsylvania.  I don’t see Florida in play, if it ever could be, or any of the emerging purple-y states.

    I haven’t seen polling, so that’s just my guess.

  72. 72.

    Immanentize

    I am off.  Immp gets his post op. CT scan for residual cancer today.  No reason to think there will be any, but I never imagined he would have any at all in the first place.  Best to worry about what one knows rather than what might be possibly wrong.  So, trying to tamp down both our anxiety until Thursday.  Try not to kick anyone else off the site this morning, ‘K?

  77. 77.

    schrodingers_cat

    America loses with a BS candidacy. D politics will become a mirror image of R politics if he is the nominee. You can take it to the bank.

  80. 80.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    At the minute he seems to be the Biden substitute for white folks, but I doubt he’ll get much of the non white vote. I trust the polls at the minute rather as I trust Trump – not at all.

  83. 83.

    Sab

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I was reading one of your books last night. That’s why I am so tired today, because I was up too late last night. I would have stayed up to finish but I have to go to work today.

  85. 85.

    Baud

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Credit where it’s due.  Obviously having money helps, but a lot of people with money would squander it running a poor campaign.  He’s used his money to run a good campaign (so far).

  87. 87.

    gvg

    @TS (the original): Yes, it’s notable that polls haven’t been matching voting results.  I fear that is more of the difficulty of polling in a cell phone world among other things. What worries me is that makes it difficult to tell if a vote has been messed with.

  89. 89.

    germy

    #BernieSanders lavishes praise on Communist Russia, preferring the Soviet Union to the American way of life#NevadaCaucus pic.twitter.com/1YdMFtQuzI— Lindy Li (@lindyli) February 15, 2020

    this tweet is a lie. if you watch the whole 1988 event, Sanders praises the Moscow metro and the USSR's cheap universal healthcare, but notes it has poor quality housing & hospitals, and is not a democracy t.co/u3LsYoB4M4 t.co/YhW57a46my— ryan cooper (@ryanlcooper) February 16, 2020

  94. 94.

    Kraux Pas

    @schrodingers_cat: America loses with a BS candidacy. D politics will become a mirror image of R politics

    But with Bloomberg D politics will simply become R politics. No need for any mirror.

  95. 95.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, …

    Disturbing escalation by Russia-backed rebels in Donbas. Attacking multiple positions and using weapons banned by the Minsk agreement

    This aggression must be condemned by US and EU, and Putin must understand that only path to better West/Russia relations runs through #Ukraine— AndersFogh Rasmussen (@AndersFoghR) February 18, 2020

    (via nycsouthpaw)

    I’m sure Donnie and Mikey P. will get right on that. I’m also sure we’ll hear questions about it in the debate tomorrow.

    Right? Right??!

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  102. 102.

    Kristine

    @Betty Cracker:

    Personally, I’d rather receive a postcard than a knock on the door, and I’d rather write postcards than canvass. But I’m sort of a hermit, so my preferences may not be widespread.

    Very much the same. I won’t phone bank–I have spam blockers on my phone, so most of the canvassing calls never get through, and I won’t do something to someone else that I won’t put up with myself. I’ve hated going door to door since they made us sell candy in grade school.

    But I will happily write postcards.

  103. 103.

    schrodingers_cat

    When I am on my laptop I will put up the two videos of BS in the Soviet Union. In one he is shirtless singing songs with Russkie women

  106. 106.

    Kraux Pas

    @schrodingers_cat: then defeat them both.

    If only it were up to me. Unless you’re talking single combat.
    Alas; I, too, am way out of line with most of the D electorate. I consider it a minor miracle we got Obama.

  107. 107.

    zhena gogolia

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I was reproved by G&T for posting the one where he’s all ga-ga over chandeliers in the subway. What a joke. I’m serious, the chandeliers in the subway are an actual joke for anyone who’s spent any time in the Soviet Union. I mean really, a joke to think that chandeliers in the subway are any kind of indicator of quality of life.

  109. 109.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @germy: Sadly, voters don’t do nuance.

    It would be the height of irony if past words of praise for a few aspects of USSR life were deemed more disqualifying than aiding and abetting the former KGB agent’s goals in destroying American democracy.

  116. 116.

    Soprano2

    Someone has unearthed a video of BS praising the Soviet Union. Democratic Socialist my ass. He was a Communist sympathizer during the Cold War. Must say that Putin is thorough. Heads he wins tails we lose.

    I saw that. I believe that somewhere there is tape of him praising Fidel Castro, too.  Things like this are why I’m once again feeling full-on panic listening to NPR talk about their poll showing Sanders with a double digit lead in all the states.  The Bernie people think “well we can just put it in context and then it won’t matter”, as if they haven’t paid any attention to any political campaign in recorded history.  Sure, the Trump campaign is going to play that clip in context for them. /s Do they honestly think context is going to make a difference when there is video of their worship object praising the Soviet Union?  Do they really think putting that “in context” is going to make a difference to voters in WI, MI, PA, OH, FL,  AZ, and the other states we need to win?  To Trump supporters Obama will forever be the guy who called them “bitter clingers”, even though the context of the quote shows he wasn’t doing that at all.  They think Hillary called them all “deplorables”, even though the context shows that’s not what she did. The only good thing about a Sanders’ candidacy is that it might once and for all shut them all up about how we would have won in 2016 if he had been the candidate, but the tradeoff in two more Trump-appointed Supreme Court judges, having half the federal judiciary be appointed by Trump, and the destruction of all the mechanisms of justice in the federal government, not to mention the total trashing of all our alliances with Western countries, is way too high of a price to pay just to prove them wrong.  I’m in a pretty dark place this morning, and really pissed off that Iowa and New Hampshire seem to have caused Sanders’ support to accelerate.

  119. 119.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    Do people really forget – or did they never take any notice.  Maybe everyone likes rich old guys?? But I have zero faith in polls in recent times.

  125. 125.

    Kraux Pas

    @Baud: Maybe we made a mistake telling ourselves that the GOP was strong and we need to be more like them to succeed.

    I didn’t know Bill Maher posted here. I personally recommend against using the contemporary* Republican party as a role model in any way.

    *I refuse to say modern

  126. 126.

    gene108

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Video’s of him praising the USSR after his honeymoon have been around, but nobody has given them much attention.

    They are saving it for the general, should he win the nomination.

    I think his supporters are blind to the damage this video, and other things from his past, can do to him as a candidate. They really think everyone will love socialism, once they see it in action. Even the better behaved ones seem very naive.

  128. 128.

    OzarkHillbilly

    From the FTFNYT:

    LOS ANGELES — For the past three years, Henrique “Hicu” Motta, a rowing coach, has created unlikely success stories in a sport long associated with the privileged. He has taken his team of high school girls from working-class families to the national championships and sent several of them to Division I colleges on athletic scholarships.

    “I’m Latina, little and had never been on a sports team,” said Isabella Soto, 17, the daughter of a nanny and a machinist who hopes to row at an elite college next fall.

    Isabella, who was accepted onto the RowLA team despite being only 5 feet 2 inches tall “on a good day,” is a first-generation American whose parents are undocumented Mexicans. Kassie Kim is the child of Korean immigrants, a cashier and a fire-alarm installer. Samadhi Dissanayake, a Sri Lankan-American raised by a single mother in subsidized housing, rides two buses to practice.

    “I hated sports before coming here,” said Samadhi, who is also considering rowing in college. “Now I love rowing and the sense of community.”

    But Mr. Motta, 39, a Brazilian who is in the country on a work visa, has been notified that his petition to remain in the United States has been denied. In order to stay, U.S. immigration authorities said, he must prove that he has “extraordinary ability” to do a job that might otherwise go to an American.

    In a sport dominated by athletes who are white and wealthy, RowLA under Mr. Motta’s leadership has long made a point of enlisting those who normally would not have access to rowing. Neither build nor athletic acumen determine who gets to compete and succeed. “He can take a girl, regardless of size and ability, and turn her into a serious rower. That’s rare among coaches,” said Liz Greenberger, a retired international security analyst who founded the team a decade ago and brought Mr. Motta in as their second coach in 2017. “It’s Hicu’s philosophy that is perfect for our program,” she said.

    Mr. Motta’s philosophy is simple: “I try to make something special out of any girl who wants to give rowing a shot,” he said.

    The question is, does that amount to extraordinary ability?

    …………………………………..

    In a five-page letter, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services agency, which is responsible for approving residence permits, outlined reasons why Mr. Motta did not meet the criteria for someone with “extraordinary ability.”

    The agency’s decision referenced a training handbook developed by Mr. Motta for RowLA, which it conceded was “an original contribution,” but it said he had offered no “objective evidence that this innovation is being widely utilized by others in the field beyond his employer, clients or customers.”

    Mr. Motta also had not proved that he performed “in a leading or critical role for organizations or establishments that have a distinguished reputation,” the rejection said. What stung the most: It said that the evidence did not show that Mr. Motta had received a “major, internationally recognized prize or award” for his team.

    As a competitive athlete and coach, Mr. Motta said, he obviously wants to win. But maybe, he said, victories should not be counted by medals alone.

    “At other clubs, it’s all about performance. The objective here is to get the girls on the right path, into college,” he said. “Rowing is a tool.”

    It’s a good story with an ending that is yet to be written. For some reason or other I don’t have much hope for a happy ending.

  129. 129.

    germy

    On FRONTLINE tonight:

    Amazon Empire: The Rise and Reign of Jeff Bezos
    An investigation into how CEO Jeff Bezos came to build Amazon, the company’s rapid success, and its global impact.

    I wonder if they’ll mention Bezos asking Bloomberg to run for president.

  133. 133.

    Betty Cracker

    @gene108: I talked to some young Sanders supporters this weekend, and they seem convinced that he’ll bring new voters off the sidelines to make up for those his platform scares off. I am…skeptical. But they are convinced it will happen.

  134. 134.

    donnah

    Dorothy A Winsor, do not despair. Lots of writers have literally papered entire walls with rejection slips. Stephen King wrote about his sixty rejection slips stuck to the wall before finally being published. And I’m thinking that JK Rowling had a stack of them, too.

    Small comfort, I know, but you’re in good company.

  136. 136.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Soprano2: Prediction: if Sanders is the nominee the campaign against him is “Bernie Sanders hates America.” And I honestly don’t know what he does to counter that. He is terrible at the kind of patriotic hope that Obama and Bill Clinton perfected, and that everyone liked about the 2016 Dem convention. He’s cranky and dour by nature. It’s going to be a huge problem.

  137. 137.

    Don Beal

    I know this would be anathema to you, but as someone who supports Sanders and Warren (slight preference Sanders) I really like D.D. Guttenplan’s piece in the Nation. He suggests they combine their campaigns but reman separate on the ballots. Then whomever gets the most delegates when the primares are over would assume the no. 1 position while the other would run as V.P. in the general. The best way to be sure Republicans like Bloomberg are not “selected” by the DNC.

  139. 139.

    gene108

    @Baud:

    Maybe we made a mistake telling ourselves that the GOP was strong and we need to be more like them to succeed.

    Republicans have gotten away with catastrophic shit, but still have a strong following. It’s tempting to think shameless arrogance is the same as strength.

    The bigger problem we have is forgetting we won big in 2018, and 2019.

    We have PTSD from the 2016 election, and there doesn’t seem to be a way to deal with it. Flipping the House, state governments, etc. wasn’t a cure.

    I don’t know what can make us see good days ahead, instead of the utter dread of Trump-4-ever.

  141. 141.

    Baud

    @gene108:

    The bigger problem we have is forgetting we won big in 2018, and 2019.

    Not me. I entered the primary with a lot of hope and optimism.  Then people I liked fell by the wayside or have been coming up short.  There was a time I would have been disappointed with Biden as the nominee.  Now I’m hoping against hope that he can pull it out.

    It’s the primary and only the primary that has me down.

  143. 143.

    Betty Cracker

    @Don Beal: Aside from the almost certain fact that neither candidate would be amenable to that deal, Sanders is 78 and had a heart attack recently, and Warren is 70, though she seems in robust health. Would it really be a good idea to put two septuagenarians on the same ticket?

  144. 144.

    Bostondreams

    @Betty Cracker:

    and they seem convinced that he’ll bring new voters off the sidelines

     

    He likely WILL bring in new or usually non-voting folks off the sidelines to vote for him…but he is just as likely to bring as many or more out to vote against him. It’s not likely these folks will suddenly stay home.

  145. 145.

    germy

    @donnah:

    And I’m thinking that JK Rowling had a stack of them, too.

    And Rowling, after her great success with Harry Potter, tried submitting a novel under a different pen name.  It was rejected by a few publishers.  Which proves, I guess, that it isn’t what you do, but who you are (or who knows you).

  146. 146.

    gene108

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Trump admin has been nitpicking over exact wording of immigration law, in order to make it harder for people to legally immigrate here, and to extend visas, if they are here legally.

     

    They very quickly went beyond  “we’re only opposed to illegal immigration” to finding ways to eliminate forms of legal immigration.

  147. 147.

    Chyron HR

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Prediction: if Sanders is the nominee the campaign against him is “Bernie Sanders hates America.” And I honestly don’t know what he does to counter that.

    “I only hate America because it’s so awful!”

  148. 148.

    Betty Cracker

    @JPL: I pointed that out, and they had answers! They said most people are disconnected from the political process altogether and many think it’s a rigged game anyway. (They are not 100% wrong here, IMO — lots of people DO think that.) Their theory is that if these disillusioned folks see Sanders winning the nomination (not getting “screwed again,” as they put it), they’ll become engaged.

  149. 149.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Betty Cracker: As you know, there’s no evidence so far showing those new voters have come off the sidelines. For what it’s worth, data from Iowa and NH seem to indicate the opposite. (ETA: Or what JPL said at #141)

     

    @donnah: Very true. If you can’t take rejection, don’t be a writer.

  151. 151.

    Chyron HR

    @Don Beal:

    He suggests [Sanders and Warren] combine their campaigns but remain separate on the ballots.

    Have… have you not heard about the snake thing?

    The best way to be sure Republicans like Bloomberg are not “selected” by the DNC.

    Yes the dastardly DNC might “select” the candidate that gets a plurality of delegates.

  152. 152.

    germy

    Socialism is a scare word they've hurled at every advance the people have made. Socialism is what they called public power, social security, deposit insurance, and independent labor organizations. Socialism is their name for anything that helps all people.
    –Harry Truman, 1952

    — Robert Reich (@RBReich) February 18, 2020

  153. 153.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    not getting “screwed again,” as they put it

    I’d just like to point out that these are presumably not “Bros” who have bought into the lie that Bernie was screwed out of the nomination in 2016.

  155. 155.

    germy

    The rot goes from the top all the way to the bottom:

    The chair of the Hopewell County, VA GOP stood outside the home of a Democratic congressman brandishing an assault weapon. He says it was "a protest." This is an indicator of just how radicalized the GOP has become at the local level. t.co/pluS4Q2bgK— Seth Cotlar (@SethCotlar) February 17, 2020

  161. 161.

    Baud

    @WaterGirl:

    Ha! Thankfully, I’m nowhere close to joining the Republicans.

    Sadly, I’m closer to understanding why some people do than I ever have been.

  163. 163.

    topclimber

    @Baud: I for one will keep supporting Warren and pray that she has the money to stay in the race. I hope she either turns it around before the convention or arrives with a few hundred delegates at a deadlocked one.

    If it comes to a choice between a probable Sanders flame-out in the general or being completely punked by Mayor Mike (R-Lite) when it comes to advancing Democratic ideals, EW is going to look mighty attractive.

    BTW, has all of Mike’s ad blitz moved the dial any on Trump vs. Dems in any of the markets he has inundated?  My guess is no. More likely it has depressed mainstream Dems and intrigued a few others. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

  164. 164.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker:Their theory is that if these disillusioned folks see Sanders winning the nomination (not getting “screwed again,” as they put it), they’ll become engaged.

    My first reading of that was “they’ll become enraged“.

  165. 165.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodingers_cat: Huh? (I know what guillotine memes are, but I don’t understand the connection to my comment.)

    @Baud: Nope, but they say the disaffected voters they’re talking about who have given up on politics — their peers — believe that.

  166. 166.

    gene108

    @Betty Cracker:

    talked to some young Sanders supporters this weekend, and they seem convinced that he’ll bring new voters off the sidelines to make up for those his platform scares off. I am…skeptical. But they are convinced it will happen.

    Naive is the term, I would use for a lot of Sanders supporters.

    I was hopeful and optimistic, after Obama’s election that saving the auto industry, increasing health insurance to people, etc. would get people’s attention, and cement a Democratic majority for years.

    When none of that materialized, and right-wing fear mongering won out, I learned a bitter lesson.

  168. 168.

    Kraux Pas

    @mrmoshpotato: It’s more a subconscious thing. Like “this is something that happened.

     

    @schrodingers_cat: God, too much work. They wanted an e-mail address. Fine, I gave them an old one I don’t use anymore. Now I have to verify it? No thanks.

    Sorry.

  172. 172.

    gene108

    @Baud:

    I was excited. Record number of women contesting the presidency.  A diverse field.

    Then Biden gets in the race, and displaces other candidates, without the name recognition.

    And I go from feeling excited about the prospect for the first woman President, second AA President, etc. to – not just an old white guy being President – but the oldest white guy ever being President.

    Just took the excitement out of it.  Plus the fact it’s a year plus campaign, we won’t have an official nominee until July, as well as Trump getting exponential worse, and I’ve gone from being excited to wanting the primary to end.

    The primary feels superficial, when all I want is someone to beat Trump.

  183. 183.

    germy

    @Kraux Pas:

    My experience is the guillotines are coming from a unique Sanders/Gabbard cross-section.

    Yes, the GOP side prefers marching with assault rifles to get their point across.

  184. 184.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Don Beal: Because the DNC is made up of secret Republicans?

    I have an idea, why don’t people just vote for the person they think will be the best president and see how it shakes out?  Don’t fucking overthink it.

  187. 187.

    Kraux Pas

    @WaterGirl: Yeah, but if everybody stands up, regardless of how much power they have, we can reach a tipping point where right matters again

    Sort of like a revolution? Maybe renaissance is better.

  188. 188.

    Kraux Pas

    @mrmoshpotato: I wanted to see it. I broke as a joke these days so don’t make it to as many movies as I would like. Worse, someone stole my Xbox so I have nothing to watch rentals on.

  191. 191.

    Soprano2

    @mrmoshpotato: You’re welcome.  I heard something the other day that I don’t think Sanders’ supporters take seriously enough – theirs isn’t the only side whose supporters would be fired up to come out if Sanders is the nominee.  Also remember, Trump doesn’t actually have to get voters in the swing states to vote for him – as we saw in 2016, all he has to do is get them to either stay home or not vote for president at all.  And to whoever said it, naive is a kind word for most of Sanders’ supporters – my preferred word is delusional.  They’re as much part of a cult as many Trump supporters, and they behave in exactly the same way.  They are in total denial about how big of a problem Sanders branding himself a socialist is going to be in the general election, especially in the states we need to win, never mind those tapes of him praising Russia and Fidel Castro.  Plus, the drag on the down ballot races will be something to behold.  IMHO there goes any chance of us retaking the Senate if Sanders is the nominee, and the House might even be in danger.  I’m not kidding when I say I see a 40-state Electoral College wipeout if he’s our nominee.  But at least we’ll be able to say to his supporters, “See, we told you what works in Vermont won’t work in the rest of the country”.  That won’t be much consolation to the people who would be really hurt by a second Trump term, though.

  192. 192.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Kraux Pas:

    Worse, someone stole my Xbox so I have nothing to watch rentals on. 

    WTF? :(

    I checked it out from the library, so you might be able to see it for free once you can get a new DVD player.

  194. 194.

    Kraux Pas

    @mrmoshpotato: It sucked, man. The result of a huge string of bad decisions on my part after a breakup. I was on full tilt.

    To this day, losing the Xbox still hurts more than the two-months-long fat lip I got in the process or the cash I lost which would have been enough to replace the damn thing.

  198. 198.

    Chyron HR

    @Soprano2:

    I’m not kidding when I say I see a 40-state Electoral College wipeout if he’s our nominee. But at least we’ll be able to say to his supporters, “See, we told you what works in Vermont won’t work in the rest of the country”.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha no.  The worse Bernie loses, the louder his circus freaks are going to scream “He lost because he was forced to run on the neoliberal shitlib ticket!”  And then he’ll run as an independent in 2024 to prove that his 2020 loss was all the “Democrat” party’s fault.

  199. 199.

    WaterGirl

    @OzarkHillbilly: Well, even if the worst happens in November, god help us if it does, we can’t just lay down and die.  We still have to fight for our country and the people who are living in it.  And for the world, aka climate change.

  200. 200.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Chyron HR: Just a sec.  Let me get a chair to sit in so I can fall out of it.

    “Berrrrnie didn’t fail.  Everyone failed Berrrrrnie! Waaahhh!”

  202. 202.

    Kraux Pas

    @Chyron HR: The worse Bernie loses, the louder his circus freaks are going to scream “He lost because he was forced to run on the neoliberal shitlib ticket

    And even if that doesn’t happen to any meaningful degree, someone will find two deranged people who think that and raise it to the level of a national emergency.

    And then he’ll run as an independent in 2024 to prove that his 2020 loss was all the “Democrat” party’s fault.

    Seems out of character. If he was gonna do that, he woulda been had done it.

  203. 203.

    mrmoshpotato

    @WaterGirl:

    And for the world, aka climate change. 

    When did it become “climate change?” I thought the rest of the world was still “here be dragons.”

  206. 206.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Chyron HR: They’ll say “shitty liberals couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Bernie because they hate The Left THAT MUCH. It’s all their fault, as usual.”

  208. 208.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I think the “rigged” framing is bigger than a specific lie about the 2016 election, unfortunately. A lot of people believe American democracy is a sham, that the outcome in both parties is rigged in favor of the rich and powerful and against them.

    That’s why they’re drawn to populist outsiders on both fringes, I guess. But Trump’s example refutes the Sanders’ supporters’ theory that appealing to disaffected voters generates massive turnout. Trump really didn’t, did he? IIRC, he got about the same number of votes as Romney…

  209. 209.

    Kraux Pas

    @FlipYrWhig: Ah, that explains it. Just early enough in my voting career to not have cared about a primary yet.

    @Omnes Omnibus: Geez, I’m sorry I tried to make light of the situation. Even more sorry my joke apparentky fell flat.

  210. 210.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker: 

    I agree that “rigged” is larger than the 2016 election. And there are contexts where it is accurate. But that’s all the more reason we should be intolerant when “rigged” is falsely used as an excuse for an unwanted outcome, because it discredits the sentiment across the board, and psychologically encourages people to be receptive to propaganda.

  211. 211.

    satby

    @Kraux Pas:  Bernie is not doing cardiac rehab or particularly following his doctor’s advice, so chances are better than even he’ll be dead by 2024. Harsh but true. Even if he was doing those things at his age with cardiac issues he’s not likely destined for a long life, and dementia from cardiac complications is no prettier than whatever the fuck Trump has. He shouldn’t be running at all now.

  213. 213.

    Immanentize

    @Kraux Pas:

    then he’ll run as an independent in 2024 to prove that his 2020 loss was all the “Democrat” party’s fault

    Vote for the living dead! Vampires for socialized blood distributions.

    As one of my sage mentors once said, “You cannot repeal the actuary tables.”

  214. 214.

    Kraux Pas

    @satby: You don’t have to tell me. I didn’t claim he would run in 2024; as a Democrat*, Independent, or otherwise. Frankly, he’s one of three people I seriously wish sat out this election. We’d be in a much better place.

    *Except for the possibility of reelection, should he be elected this year

  215. 215.

    mrmoshpotato

    @satby: If you will, allow me to add my usual “He should’ve fucked off in May 2016 when the race was effectively over.”

    Sunday Sunday Sunday!  Wilmer vs Dump!  Will they both still be alive on Sunday!

  217. 217.

    Immanentize

    @Kraux Pas: I know who you were replying to, this is a free flowing conversation.  It was just easier to copy from you than go back.  Mellow out, happens all the time here, let it slip into your unconsciousness.

  218. 218.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kraux Pas: It’s a sore point with me.  It is also one of the reasons I have been harsh on you in the past.  Voting isn’t a form of self-expression; it is a right and a responsibility.  I think we owe it to those who have bled and died trying to get it to respect it and take it seriously.  And to always do it.  I will be going out of my way to day to vote in a primary election where the only people on the ballot are the judges who will be running for the Supreme Court in the April election.  Here endeth the lecture.

  219. 219.

    Kraux Pas

    @Omnes Omnibus: It is also one of the reasons I have been harsh on you in the past.  Voting isn’t a form of self-expression; it is a right and a responsibility

    Wait, I’m sorry, did I use my vote in a way you disapprove of? Please explain.

    Immanentize: Oh, I’m mellow, it was just weird.

  221. 221.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I don’t disagree, but “rigged” covers a lot of ground. To name just one example, I don’t think I understood sufficiently in 2016 how much and how many people resented the alleged dynastic angle of Hillary Clinton’s run.

    I knew that criticism was out there, of course — I argued with my husband about it during the primary! It pissed me off (still does) because there are sexist implications along with ignorance of how women access power in a misogynistic society, etc., etc., that I won’t bother preaching to the choir about in this forum. But I think that may have been part of it.

    The Sanders supporters I was talking to are registered Democrats who are somewhat involved in the political process aside from just showing up to vote, so I have hope they’ll eventually learn that the “establishment” is us. But I don’t know how you reach people who aren’t even listening anymore.

    My sense is, either a) we’ll get our shit together, defeat Trump and discredit the Republican Party that enabled him by revealing their crimes and taking the country in a different and better direction, or b) we WON’T get our shit together and Trump and Republicanism will become more entrenched, which would destroy OUR party.

    It’s like a steel cage death match. No pressure!

  222. 222.

    Don Beal

    @Betty Cracker:  Their political philosophy is more aligned than any of the others in the field. I recall that Sanders team looked at Warren as a VP/Treasury Secretary and Warren has called Bernie a close friend for years. Their differences are mostly in the minds of the anti Sanders people. They bring very complimentary  assets to the ticket. Sanders leads a grassroots movement that understands today’s problems will not be solved by government as it is now constituted. Warren has policy chops and less baggage for those who do not understand (or care to understand) what being a democratic socialist means. As for the age/health issues, I have the same heart problem and it is very manageable.

  223. 223.

    Soprano2

    @Chyron HR: Ugh, I can totally see that happening, unless he dies of a heart attack first.  I find myself wishing he’d have another heart attack his week, just to bring that back into the news.  It’s like the press has completely forgotten about it!

  224. 224.

    Don Beal

    @Betty Cracker:  Their political philosophy is more aligned than any of the others in the field. I recall that Sanders team looked at Warren as a VP/Treasury Secretary and Warren has called Bernie a close friend for years. Their differences are mostly in the minds of the anti Sanders people. They bring very complimentary  assets to the ticket. Sanders leads a grassroots movement that understands today’s problems will not be solved by government as it is now constituted. Warren has policy chops and less baggage for those who do not understand (or care to understand) what being a democratic socialist means. As for the age/health issues, I have the same heart problem and it is very manageable.

     

     

    @Chyron HR: Super delegates= DNC selects the candidate

  225. 225.

    Soprano2

    @Don Beal: The biggest difference between Warren and Sanders is also the most important one:  There’s no video of her calling herself a socialist, or of her praising the USSR, or (I’ve heard it’s out there, anyway) of her praising anything about Cuba or Fidel Castro.  Now, its true that Republicans might throw all of that at her, but with Sanders they can actually play video showing that it’s true!!  If you think that won’t influence the casual voter in Wisconsin or Michigan or Pennsylvania, well that’s just delusional. None of the Sanders people seem to have any plan to fight back against that other than “hope” and  “once people hear what he has to offer they’ll love him like I do”.

  227. 227.

    Chyron HR

    @Don Beal:

    Friendly reminder that the only candidate in the history of the Democratic party who has ever tried to get superdelegates to overturn the results of a primary was… Bernie in 2016.

  228. 228.

    Chyron HR

    @Soprano2:

    I find myself wishing he’d have another heart attack his week

    You know if that happens his demented worshipers are going to claim he was poisoned by the EEEEVUL DNC, right?

  229. 229.

    Chyron HR

    @Kraux Pas:

    Wait, I’m sorry, did I use my vote in a way you disapprove of?

    Reminder: We know who you are.  I know Bernie tells you that Democrats are the dumbest people to walk the Earth, but I assure you we fucking know who you are and how you used your vote in 2016.

  230. 230.

    Kraux Pas

    @Chyron HR: I voted for Hillary Clinton. What’s wrong with that?

    I mean according to you. I know plenty of people I expect to tell me that was wrong.

    Also you’ve been in serious contention for the first person I ever use the pie filter on, having posted here since 07 or 08. Like you’re a serious dickhead to a lot of people.

  231. 231.

    Betty Cracker

    @Chyron HR: Okay, that’s borderline creepy, even for someone with your history of deranged and baseless accusations inspired by visions of Sanders in your yogurt cup. Consider dialing it back several notches. Please and thank you.

  233. 233.

    TC

    @Don Beal: That’s an interesting idea, but that article was written in Jan.  Allot has happened since then including Warren’s terrible decision to go negative on Sanders and try to paint him as a mysoginist.  She continues beating the identity politics drum and just can’t see it’s a loser for her campaign.

    Fast forward to today with NH approaching and Warren looks increasingly irrelevant.  Her party unity message isn’t working. Her support will continue bleeding off to Sanders for those progressives where policy is most important, and to Klobuchar (if she remains) for those who just want a woman elected.  I’m sure mayor Pete will garner some but his campaigns long-term outlook is uncertain now that we move to more diverse states.

  234. 234.

    Bill Arnold

    @schrodingers_cat:
    FWIW, here’s full[1] video of that snippet circulating about Bernie Sanders praising the Moscow subway system, very low cost high-quality cultural events, youth programs.
    Bernie Sanders on the Soviet Union Press Conference 6/13/1988 (Starting about 2:20)
    In the bits that are not being circulated (who did the editing?) Sanders says he was surprised about the honesty of [soviet] officials about Soviet Union shortcomings in the areas of Democracy, health care and housing.
    So the context mostly ameliorates the propaganda snippet being circulated. Unfortunately, aggregated American voters do not do context. This is a test of Sanders and his campaign, and he will need to spend a lot of effort fending off these attacks. So far he’s not done well, and his supporters have been inept(to be polite), unless their intention is to election Republicans.
    F-in attack DJT and top Republicans, not Democrats, and yes, out-of-context stuff will be necessary[2] (if reasonably honest) because it means that DJT has to explain context. (His surrogates will try too.)

    [1] Full-er – there is at least one cut (didn’t listen to the whole thing).
    [2] I’m a tit-for-three(+)-adjudicated-tats(strikes) person.

  235. 235.

    Soprano2

    Yes, this video that’s circulating is a true test of how the Sanders’ people can fight this off.  I also saw something on Twitter about him supporting the Ayatollah in 1979 and saying the American hostages might be spies!  Good Lord, if that’s true then it’s even worse than the praise of anything in the USSR!!!  Sanders has never been truly vetted by a hostile campaign, that’s for sure.

  236. 236.

    Elizabelle

    Bernie is unelectable in the general.  The sooner he is out of the picture, the better.

    @Soprano2:

    Sanders has never been truly vetted by a hostile campaign, that’s for sure.

    Exactly.

  238. 238.

    Procopius

    @tokyocali (formerly tokyo expat): I’ve been living in Thailand since 1982. My memory is that the mail took a serious hit after the Anthrax Letters thing after 9/11. First Class mail used to take about a week. After post offices world-wide adopted (undescribed) measures to prevent bombs and anthrax spores from being sent through the mails it started taking two weeks. Currently seems like my absentee ballot takes about ten days to get from here to Michigan.

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