TPM is live-blogging the Roger Stone sentencing here. I hope Judge Berman Jackson throws the book at Ft. Lauderdale’s most enthusiastic Batman villain cosplayer, but she’s made some noises about sentencing guidelines that could be interpreted as not encouraging? Hard to tell. Anyhoo, I’ll pop back in with the final word when available unless someone beats me to it.
ETA: Sentence: 40 months, $20K fine.
Meanwhile, if you’re up for another debate hot take, mine is below the fold…
Debate Hot Takes Part Trois
Take it with a grain assault* because I’m a fan, but I think Warren won by a mile. She curb-stomped Bloomberg, especially on the NDA issue, ably providing a preview of what it would be like to watch her punt Trump into the sun (if Warren’s the nominee and the cowardly bully agrees to debate her).
Warren stood up for Klobuchar, making Buttigieg’s attack on Amy look small, then landed a zinger of her own on both of them. She elbowed everyone at one point or another, even dinging Sanders for the hand-waving about his M4A plan, his team’s attacks on anyone who has the temerity to ask for more specificity and subsequent shrugging off of Bernie’s version as a starting point.
That won’t be enough to satisfy Warren’s critics on that score. Nothing will be. Ever. But maybe she knows what she’s doing? We’ll see.
Poor Klobuchar. Things went badly for her all night, but it could have been worse. Klobuchar’s performance was like one of those days when your car won’t start and your phone bricks and you’re digging through your purse but can’t locate your card at the grocery store while a long, angry line of people grumbles behind you in the checkout line. But Bloomberg’s night was like when your Learjet crashes into a nuclear reactor, causing a meltdown that overheats the earth’s molten core and triggers the simultaneous eruption of a thousand volcanoes.
I’ve got to think Bloomberg’s terrible performance will deflate his poll numbers considerably because his rise was 100% an ad buy-fueled fear reaction. Last night he was disastrously revealed as NOT the safe Daddy Warbucks he told us he was. Perhaps Klobuchar’s sub-par performance will slow her momentum too, though her numbers weren’t great in upcoming states anyway. Where will those voters go?
Lots of pundits say Biden did well – a breakout performance even, according to some. I didn’t see it. It’s like several weeks ago, desperately casting about for a way to reinvigorate a lackadaisical campaign, some genius told Biden to emulate Sanders and yell a lot because voters read shouting as conviction. Yelling seems to work for Sanders, and maybe it works for Biden too, judging by the positive reviews.
But I just see two old men shouting on my TV. If I wanted to hear codgers declaim in outraged tones all evening, I’d drive over to The Villages Denny’s and Sharpie a “1” in front of every price on the early bird special menu insert.
I thought Buttigieg had a good moment when he took on Sanders over the Bernie Bro thing, linking the snowballing problem to leadership at the top. But he (and all of them) missed an opportunity to underscore that it’s not just the internet randos: Sanders hires toxic people.
Just yesterday, Sanders’ godawful press flack falsely claimed Bloomberg had a heart attack, then made a breathtakingly dumb comparison between the press clamor for detailed medical records from Sanders and birthers hounding Obama for his birth certificate. If the latter was mentioned at all, I missed it. But the by-turns venomous and amateurish nature of Sanders’ team and surrogate crew are a legit issue.
I feel like I’m forgetting someone. Oh well. If so, that’s a take in its own right. Open thread.
*Years ago, someone wrote “grain assault” when she meant “grain of salt” on a message board I used to read, and I’ve been trying to popularize the malapropism ever since. Sorry.
Playing to Win: An Introduction
germy
Shocker: Trump’s live tweeting the Stone sentencing.
Baud
I thought Biden was better than he has been. maybe not as good as he needs to be and certainly not as good as Warren.
The Moar You Know
from last thread, because it’s important: So, when the fuck is the party going to get a clue and close our primaries? Both my GOP co-workers were sniggering this morning about how they’ve filled out their ballots (I’m in CA) and both voted for Bernie.
Patricia Kayden
Omnes Omnibus
I think that a lot of opinions on this debate are very colored by where people stood going in. If I try to sort through the debris and edit out the preferences of the observers, this is what I get: Warren’s performance was, at the very least, good. Bloomberg’s performance was, at the very best, terrible. Bernie was red. The rest is commentary.
germy
The Moar You Know
@Baud: I have been on Team Biden since day one, because general election poll numbers, but Warren made a case for saying fuck the poll numbers and vote for her last night. Still got a few days to fill out the ballot. I have some thinking to do.
Betty Cracker
@germy: Oooo, this seems significant:
Get him, Judge!
Chyron HR
@Patricia Kayden:
It’s shameful that Bernie and AOC want to murder 68,000 people a year by settling for a public option.
Baud
@The Moar You Know:
My personal preference is Warren, but Biden’s maintaining high matchup numbers despite everything is impressive and tempting. I think I’m basically down to those two, unless Pete makes a miraculous run and becomes the lead non-Bernie.
MattF
There’s no way around the current spectacle of Trump opponents bashing each other— at least Warren is good at it. One can hope that Trump doesn’t understand that name-calling won’t daunt her in a debate.
BGinCHI
@Betty Cracker: I don’t think ABJ is going to suffer this fool and give a lighter sentence. She doesn’t seem like the type to let political pressure sway what she thinks is the proper application of the law.
Stone will get a real sentence.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Tomato red and flushed. That man is sick. He needs healthcare. Retire already, Lake Champlain is nice during summer.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Those are my top three right now, but I go Biden first. I think the rebuilding our standing with other nations is vital and Biden is best positioned to do that.
Betty Cracker
@BGinCHI: I hope you’re right. As we know, he’s angling for a new trial on specious grounds (a biased jury foreperson, whom his lawyers inexplicably failed to exclude when they had the opportunity). Does anyone know the likelihood that he’ll remain free to pursue that bogus action or if he’s off to the hoosegow today? Is that up to ABJ?
MattF
@Betty Cracker: Stone makes the odd argument that he’s innocent because no one takes him seriously. De minimis non curat lex, and all that.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Biden, Amy K, Pete B, are my top 3 now. If BS wins the nomination I will be registering as an independent and resigning from my town D committee.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I was Amy curious, but she needed to be near perfect to have a shot, and she has been far from it lately. Absent a remarkable showing in NV, I going to cross her off my list.
waspuppet
@The Moar You Know: If everyone who wants Trump out of the White House votes for the Democratic nominee, Trump will be out of the White House. That’s what matters. I’m with Warren because she’s the only one left who fully realizes that the GOP is not a party but a criminal gang (it was a tossup between her and Harris for me). But Biden would be fine I guess. Do what you think best.
As for
Our six- and seven-figure political media will not allow Trump to be punted into the sun. If she does it, they will say she didn’t. They can say Bloomberg got mangled last night because saying a Democrat got mangled is OK.
SenyorDave
I would like to see a sentence of 6 years and 364 days. Then people could say well it’s not like she gave him 7 to 9 years.
David Hunt
japa21
@Omnes Omnibus:
That has been my biggest argument for Biden all along. The domestic policies will all come from the House and Senate. He won’t veto any progressive legislation.
Plus, I do think he would have the biggest coattails and bring us the Senate.
Omnes Omnibus
@japa21: Bingo.
germy
@MattF:
No one takes me seriously, and I’m guilty as hell.
trollhattan
@MattF:
You just know she has a death blow in her hip pocket* for the day he unloads “Pocahontas” on her in person (“Hardy-har, that’s the end of Liz.”) May we yet see that day unfold.
*i.e., There’s a plan for that.
Truthfully, I doubt he’d agree to debate her any more than he’d debate Nancy Smash.
Baud
@David Hunt:
“I wear my sunglasses in court….”
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: She had a terrible debate yesterday. I too am waiting for Nevada and SC before I cast my primary ballot.
trollhattan
@David Hunt:
I’m picturing a phalanx of Stone’s goomba lawyers looking at one another “You gonna take yours off?”
JPL
I’d be fine with Biden if Harris were on the ticket with him. Normally VP’s don’t matter, but in his case, it would.
pamelabrown53
@Omnes Omnibus:
I agree with both your and japa21’s reason for supporting Biden. Plus, he has the experience needed to rebuild and reconstitute our faith in such institutions as State and DOJ…to name the 2 most obvious ones.
Mandalay
Live twitter update from CBS correspondent Bill Rehkopf here.
VFX Lurker
California offers same-day-registration, so your GOP co-workers can become “Democrats” any time they want.
Here’s hoping the easy access to voting in California drowns out the noise of your co-workers.
JPL
If the judge stays with the guidelines, it looks like six to eight years, but all of this is meaningless.
Kelly
moved up from below
My wife and I watched our first debate of the season last night. We both support Senator Professor Warren so it was an enjoyable evening.
I give Buttigieg a few points for an early dig at Bloomberg and Sanders being Democrats of convenience. Didn’t actually name them but it was clear who he was talking about.
JPL
@Mandalay: 5.8 to 7.25 according to CBS
MattF
@trollhattan: I also doubt that Trump would ever debate Warren, but the real reason, his usual toxic brew of narcissism, resentment, and self-pity, won’t go over well, IMO.
The Moar You Know
@VFX Lurker: But they don’t have to. Every Republican in this state can and most of them will vote in the Democratic primary. Why the fuck should some goddamn Nazi get to pick who my candidate is?
I would hope the problem with this idiocy would be obvious.
trollhattan
@The Moar You Know:
Also decline-to-state, who now outnumber registered Republicans in California.
JPL
I don’t think she’s not happy with the new prosecutor.
ABJ: With respect to the second filing — you signed it. Did you write it? Crabb: I’m not at liberty to discuss the internal deliberations in DOJ. ABJ: Were you directed to write it by someone else? Crabb: I can’t say
Exregis
@Patricia Kayden:
The article does not say that a single-payer system would save 68,000 lives. It only says that a single-payer system based on foreign countries’ data would save lots of money, if we assume Medicare payment schedules (sometimes paying as little as 5% of what physicians and hospitals claim). Universal health care is what saves lives. The gold-standard Harvard and Johns Hopkins studies of Americans show a smaller number of saved lives, based on 25%-40% increase in mortality rate for uninsured and under-insured people. That’s not much individually but resulted in 30,000-45,000 deaths a year before the Affordable Care Act. (If you have a 1% chance of dying this year, being uninsured increases that to 1.25 or 1.4% — still small.)
Currently, Medicare does not cover dental care or long-term care. Medicare has a relatively small deductible and a 20% co-pay, making Medicare for All a misleading term and more expensive than Medicare. The study in the Post seems to assume that companies will increase pay as they eliminate coverage benefits. Believe that at your risk.
@Patricia Kayden: Analysis: A single-payer health care system would save more than 68,000 lives and $450 billion a year, new research shows t.co/AGHlS54sIX— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) February 20, 2020
JPL
LAO if you are luring, you want to chime in.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Omnes Omnibus: Biden is not best positioned to do that.
There’s multiple issues to this. The big one is that if the crimes of the past get swept under the carpet Yet Again nobody’s going to buy it any more. As I said to some Dem on twitter a while back who was claiming that Trump was an aberration, “No. W was an aberration. Trump is a pattern.” The world wants to see the US deal with its elite impunity problem, because until it is dealt with, the US simply cannot be seen as a reliable counter-party… and I’m pretty sure Biden’s just not going to do that.
Sanders isn’t that guy either; his crankiness will not play well when dealing with peers. I also personally think that the bureaucracy will defeat him.
The Clinton and Obama eras are over. The veracities wrt your place in the world have changed fundamentally over the last three years. It’s going to take a lot more than three years to repair the damage that your country’s reputation has suffered, because as I said earlier… W was the aberration. Trump makes it a pattern, and given the actual obvious criminality of both those regimes (torture, graft), unless the world sees the people responsible punished for their parts in the criminality nobody’s going to really buy the idea that it’s been fixed without a very long period of non-criminal behaviour.
Kent
When I lived in TX I voted in all the GOP primaries when there were no competitive races in the Dem primary (often the case). I distinctly remember voting for Ted Cruz because he was by far the least electable of the two candidates. The other was a mainstream republican. Oops.
glory b
@trollhattan: Everyone stop fantasizing. Trump will not debate.
mrmoshpotato
A friend yelled some The Big Lebowski lines at me over text earlier, so all I can think is “Jesus.”
Elroy's Lunch
Amy Berman Jackson is a childhood friend of my wife. Judge ABJ will be fair, prepared and not intimidated. I’m confident that the sentence will be appropriate.
Cacti
It will take about a week for any change in poll numbers to reveal themselves, but I’m skeptical this moves the needle much for Warren.
I said before the debate even happened, the people most eager to see her stick it to Bloomberg were liberals already favorably disposed toward her.
Meanwhile, she continued to give the Marxist in first place the kid gloves treatment. It’s like she has battered wife syndrome with Bernie and his supporters. No matter how bad they are to her, she thinks they can be reached.
Kent
Yet, had Bill Clinton or Barak Obama (or George Bush) been on the stage last night, any one of them would have been the second youngest man in the debate after Mayor Pete. Somehow people think we can go forward by going backwards?
TaMara (HFG)
@glory b: I think they should still have the debates – and empty podium for Trump and our nominee talking about everything they believe in, all their plans and randomly trashing the orange circus peanut.
Kent
Is Stone one of these defendants who potentially faces state charges? Or is does he totally go free when Trump pardons him, which he will do?
Baud
@Cacti:
At some level, if none of the other candidates feel confident enough to really make the case that Bernie shouldn’t be the nominee, then maybe he should be the nominee. I don’t like it but people aren’t going to wait for leadership forever, and the clock is ticking.
JGabriel
Betty Cracker @ Top:
I thought Biden made some good points on his foreign policy experience, but I suspect that only carries weight with people who already know that the presidency is primarily about foreign policy, and already know that Joe has extensive FP experience and is generally well-regarded by foreign diplomats.
In other words, he probably didn’t convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced of his viability.
That said, I thought Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg all came across as old.
And Buttigieg came across like the “Democratic” “centrist” on a Fox News opinion show, consistently attacking Democratic values as polarizing and too far left. I’m honestly beginning to wonder why Buttigieg doesn’t just join the GOP if he thinks it’s the Democrats who are polarizing. Fuck him.
That leaves Warren and Klobuchar as the only acceptable candidates left. Obvs., I’ll vote for whoever gets the Democratic nomination, but I really hope it’s one of those two (and I really, really, hope it’s Warren).
Ksmiami
@schrodingers_cat: I’m back to strong Biden then all except Bernie
KithKanan
@The Moar You Know: They have to be registered (or re-register as) Democratic or No Party Preference to vote in the CA Democratic primary. It’s not open to voters registered GOP.
Chris Johnson
@Cacti: I think it’s fascinating how the Russian trolls in dirtbag left haunts, insist that Warren is a treacherous snake who hates Bernie and lives to serve the banksters and party elite, whereas here you get ‘she is trying to be Bernie’s veep, she won’t attack him, therefore she is only supporting a cult of personality and has no identity of her own’.
A bunch of the Bernie crowd is there because of his stump speech. He’s been bitching about billionaires (used to be millionaires! :D ) and the total capture of the American system by oligarchs, for years and years and years. He is right. We dodged that very bullet with Bloomberg, thanks mostly to Warren.
Warren AGREES with hating the damage that has been done by vulture capitalism. She’s seen it in her work, also for years and years, and she is righteously outraged. These are the same values, much like multiple Dems could be passionate about fighting the damage of climate change, because that’s TRUE and a very serious thing.
We are not gonna get ‘the climate change Dem, and the anti climate change Dem: choose from these two equally valid whims!’. By the same principle, we are not gonna get the ‘economically left Dem trying to give regular citizens a break, and the economically left Dem who’s pushing for max globalization and the highest possible stock market score by any means possible’, because some of this is antithetical to being a Democrat in 2020 and observing the world around us.
If Bloomberg and Steyer aren’t wake-up calls, I can’t help you.
So, there will never be a Warren who full-throatedly objects to Bernie’s platform. The problem is that he is not the person to do it. Even if we’re so fucked that we end up with the paper tiger of a President Sanders, we’re gonna have to use him as a rubber stamp and put the screws to him to make him go along with what real Dems are prepared to do, because we have no choice: we MUST save our country (and in the case of climate change, join in saving the world, in myriad ways).
Omnes Omnibus
@polyorchnid octopunch: You are free to vote as you choose. Oh wait…
No one’s election or administration is going to fix everything. I think Biden is best placed to start the process.
mrmoshpotato
@japa21:
And a shrubbery? :)
Cacti
I agree. That’s why she’ll lose.
Marcopolo
I thought Biden did well enough to place second in the debate. But he totally fumbled the response to Bloomberg on Stop & Frisk. Stop & Frisk activities did not fall dramatically in Bloomberg’s final year as mayor of NYC because the Obama Admin sent in monitors (I mean wtf), it was because a federal judge ruled the practice was unconstitutional. Unfuckingconstitutional! And the kicker to this was the Bloomberg Admin was in that court arguing up until their last breath that they be able to continue the practice. Bloomberg never had some aha this is wrong moment as mayor.
I really would have loved for this information to have come out during the debate but once Biden gave his odd inaccurate version of events the moment was lost. And yes, just as bad, the fucking moderator who asked the fucking question should have known this information and done a follow up with Bloomberg when he lied so that pissed me off as well.
Betty Cracker
@polyorchnid octopunch: You make good points. It’s also a fact that Biden was one of the W-era Democrats who helped sell the Iraq War, though he downplays it now (to the point of being misleading, IMO). Time and his association with Obama have taken the edge off that charge. Clinton was pilloried for it when she ran in 2008, but Biden was much more of a key actor in that horrendous mistake than Clinton ever was.
Hoodie
@Ksmiami: I have to agree. I was hoping that Klobuchar might have potential, but she gets too easily flustered.
Partially reposting from dead thread, but there is a general failure on the part of all of the candidates to talk up this being a team effort. Obama didn’t have much in the way of detailed plans, but more of an inspirational message, a cool managerial temperament and solid organizational skills. This is an executive job, not a legislative one. Laugh at him, but Bloomberg is right about that (otherwise, he’s just another rich asshole).
Sanders is the only one getting even close to doing this, but he isn’t believable. The one good line Bloomberg got in was the one about the world’s most famous socialist having three houses. That kind of thing will be exploited mercilessly in the general election and, if we get into a campaign where we’re arguing about socialism vs. capitalism, we will lose. Most Americans don’t even know what socialism is and haven’t been to Denmark.
I think on balance, Biden still is the best option unless Warren can grow past talking about her plans. Her strongest virtues are her earnestness and smarts, not the specific details of her plans. Those smarts are better deployed towards building an organization and ties with other Dem pols, like Pelosi.
The Dangerman
Put me down for Biden/Warren or Warren/Whomever. In the latter “whomever”, if there is someone that hasn’t been on the debate stage that can flip a key swing state, that works for me. IIRC, Kaine came from the weeds to be on the ticket.
Also, put me down as Trump will never debate. He had trouble with “Gentleman, start your engines” the other day. I wonder how long they can pull off this Weekend at Bernies routine with him?
schrodingers_cat
@Ksmiami: Pretty much where I am.
Can Kamala Harris jump back in the mix? I sure do miss her in these debates. Even Inslee and Bennet were better than some of the B’s we have left.
rp
Warren doesn’t have to object to Sanders’ platform to attack him. In fact, she can fully embrace his overall views while arguing that he’s not a democrat, not healthy, hasn’t accomplished anything, not collaborative, etc. That’s not easy, but it certainly can be done.
Jinchi
@schrodingers_cat: Wait. Isn’t Bernie an Independent? He might see your party switch as an encouragement.
The Moar You Know
@Kent: No state charges. He walks.
Marcopolo
I gotta run but the one glaring fault I had last night with the moderators & the candidates is that no one, but no one, mentioned all the crap that is going down with Trump & Barr basically making the DOJ into another arm of the Trump organization. Where was that issue last night?
Y’all have a nice day.
schrodingers_cat
@Hoodie: Since I am a cynical curmudgeon her earnestness and overwrought voice grates on me. I miss me No Drama Obama.
schrodingers_cat
@Jinchi: Indeed. With BS all the options seem to be heads he wins, tails I lose. Besides I am too insignificant to matter to the “Revolution”
PST
Judge Jackson is back from her break. During argument, she acknowledged that many people regard the sentencing guidelines as too strict and would prefer a more individual approach, but for now, the guidelines are the guidelines. Good. She accepted all but one of the arguments for “enhancement” of the sentence, including the critical ones involving threats to a witness. Also good. So I would expect a sentence just slightly less than the first recommendation.
JPL
@PST: trump is not going to be happy with her. If the republicans retake the house, I assume he’ll call for her impeachment
It goes without saying that if the retake the house, trump also wins.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: Note that ‘grain assault’ may be an ‘eggcorn’ so you could propose adding it to the eggcorn database.
Hoodie
@The Dangerman: Trump refusing to debate is not a bad thing. At least you don’t have to waste time trying to filter through his gibberish and deal with his monkey man act in a debate setting, where the forum creates an implied obligation to try to make sense out of stuff that is fundamentally nonsensical. Outside of debates, e.g., in ads or rallies, you can just cherry pick the copious bits of awfulness he puts out, kind of like Bloomberg has been doing in his ads.
Betty Cracker
@Hoodie: That’s a good point. I don’t know if Trump will show up at a debate or not. He’s certainly made a lot of noise about “fairness” that sounds an awful lot like the groundwork for avoiding it. But it’s such an overtly chickenshit move.
randy khan
So, one interesting thing from the Stone sentencing hearing is that apparently the first recommendation never was formally withdrawn. I wonder if that was a mistake on the part of the new guy or a “mistake,” if you know what I mean.
sdhays
@Betty Cracker: If a woman is the nominee and beating him or neck and neck in the polls, I don’t see how he could handle the humiliation of being scared of debating a woman.
The Moar You Know
Trump won’t debate a woman.
He will leap at the chance to debate any of our male candidates. Snuff up a couple of rails of Adderall and go out screaming whatever bullshit comes into what’s left of his brain. His base will eat that shit up.
gwangung
@Chris Johnson: So much nonsense from some Bernie fans. Claiming Warren got so much money from the healthcare industry, and cited Open Secrets as their “proof.” Wouldn’t believe me when I pointed out these donations were from individuals, even when the website itself printed out where they were getting its figures.
Mandalay
Stone’s counsel seems really desperate to come up with any reason for the judge not to throw the book at his client:
Betty Cracker
From accounts I’m reading of Judge ABJ’s remarks, it’s like she’s laying out a case that would maximize the political damage for Trump to pardon him. Good for her.
randy khan
@sdhays:
I feel like it could go any way – he could agree to debates, or say he won’t do them, or say he will and make it impossible to have them, or do one debate and blow off the other ones, or something even stranger that hasn’t occurred to me. It’s all dependent on his whims, and actual strategic calculations won’t be important.
I mean, he almost certainly thinks he beat Clinton in the debates, so you know he doesn’t think about them rationally.
Chris Johnson
@Cacti: Well, then, you’re being an asshole: Bernie’s platform has never been the problem, in fact it’s the only lifeline stopping us from being no better than Russia. It’s Bernie the person, and Bernie as a spoiler being pushed by Russia, and they don’t give a shit about the platform and don’t believe anything of the sort themselves.
If there wasn’t a profound resonance with these grievances Trump would not have run on the economically populist platform he did, and lost so narrowly that he got awarded the Presidency. If these were not fundamental concerns that rightfully belong to the Democratic Party, Bernie would be doing about as well as Bloomberg.
It’s like saying you think Warren should leave the job creators alone, and that the rich aren’t hurting anybody. In theory that MIGHT be possible but right now? Feh.
Warren will win, much like she won over Scott Brown when Bloomberg was backing him.
Another Scott
@Marcopolo: That exchange struck me as well. Biden kept stumbling over mediator/moderator/whatever-m-word-he-was-trying-to-say and getting the story all wrong. S&F wasn’t stopped by talking-it-out, it was stopped by lawsuits and other concrete actions.
Biden does really badly when he’s rushed and trying to cram too many things into 75 sec. He ends up sounding confused, and his continuous short tangents are confusing to listeners. He needs to lay off the RedBull.
Cheers,
Scott.
Gin & Tonic
Today marks six years since forces commanded by then-President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych opened fire on peaceful protesters on Institutska Street in Kyiv. Dozens were killed, and within two days Yanukovych had fled the country and his government collapsed. Since then Ukraine has held two Presidential and two Parliamentary elections that were generally adjudged to be free and fair.
Unfortunately, there have been no criminal consequences for the several commanders involved.
Butch
Grain assault makes me think of a young niece’s “swore nenemy.”
The Dangerman
@Mandalay:
Hmmm. The Trump Administration in 8 words.
Hoodie
@Betty Cracker: Which is what is great about it. I’m all for giving him shit about being afraid to debate, but I would be secretly happy if he didn’t do it. I don’t think you gain much of anything by debating him because he doesn’t debate — he acts out. Therefore, being a rapier-like debater doesn’t do you any good. I suspect the real reason he wouldn’t want to debate is that he’s lazy and addicted to staged rallies full of deadhead-like cult followers that travel across multiple states to see him, where he can do his stream of consciousness rambling without preparation.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
They all seem to “suspend” their campaigns, IIUC so they can clear up the financials using their campaign funds. Am sure it’s messy and complicated.
No, there’s no Harris campaign organization and frankly, no opening for anybody to enter at this point. She does not, for example, appear on the California ballot.
randy khan
@Hoodie:
I think one way to be effective against Trump is to do what Warren did last night with Bloomberg (and Clinton did to him towards the end of the first debate) – hammer him with something. No rapiers involved, so to speak, just blunt force trauma. When someone is forceful and completely non-deferential, he doesn’t know what to do.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: Sure am glad that I’m not in front of her, and I hope that Stone and his family listen to her words carefully.
schrodingers_cat
Thought for the day
How many people in the Orange King’s orbit would even be eligible to get a Green Card if they were immigrants.
trollhattan
Just noticed that one of the Libertarian Party 2020 candidates is Vermin Supreme.
“Pony Up, America”
Mandalay
@The Dangerman: Just now:
piratedan
i really don’t understand the concept that Warren has to attack Sanders platform… have you looked at them? Sanders platform is incredibly close to what Warren’s platform is… the difference?
The difference is Warren has gamed out how to try and get said platform into some semblance of reality, sans the magic of a “revolution”. She cites taxes and who will be taxed and at what rate in order to generate the revenue necessary to at least show how the plan could actually work. She is realistically presenting it as a heavy lift, indicating that it has to be created thru legislation and compromise to actually build it.
My biggest concerns about BS has always been, great skeleton of ideas, where’s the meat and sinew of how the actual body works, where are the organs that make it function? Plus, his purity pony brigade of online goons and who have been ratfucking Dems in his name and who refuses to believe he is someone’s catspaw in this political process. Zero self-examination.
So, Warren attacking the Sanders platform is attacking her own fucking platform, why do it? She has to address Sanders via character concerns, not policy concerns because their policy comes from the same place, Liz’s is based on a realistic approach to legislation and implementation, whereas Sanders takes an idealistic approach which appeals to folks because they can insert their own narrative into his framework and believe that their framework is his framework, projecting their own ideas into believing Sanders “understands” them.
That being said, he’s not 45, and gawd forbid, if he’s the nominee, he’ll get my vote because he’s not 45.
JPL
@Mandalay: I wanted life in prison, but I guess that was to much to expect. I hope at least five.
TaMara (HFG)
@Cacti: I’m just gonna have to pie you. I have never seen one comment from you that is not negative and divisive. Maybe try some different keys on the piano.
Bruuuuce
@Mandalay: Oh, such a straight line. It’s a shame Judge ABJ didn’t tell him, in so many words, “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.” Or would that have set him and his supporters up to bitch that he’d been Shafted?
patrick Il
If Warren was a man she’d be up by a thousand points. If she was a man with money, she’d be up by more. She has the most personality. campaigns the hardest, has the relevant successful experience. We should all vote for her, women especially.
Cacti
If that was actually true, why aren’t the disciples of Bernie winning elections anywhere but the deepest blue districts?
The electoral record of the “Justice Democrats” is hot garbage. When Dems flipped the House in 2018, it wasn’t on the promise of Bernie-style Democratic Socialism.
53% of voters say they won’t support a socialist candidate. But all of the above facts notwithstanding, you insist that there’s some great groundswell of support for a Democratic Socialist platform, outside of Bernie’s true believing faithful.
Feeling that it’s true is not the same as it being true. And electoral reality to date has in no way resembled your hypothesis of what voters really want.
Amir Khalid
@trollhattan:
If you want a POTUS who wears a rubber boot on his head, he’s your guy.
Cacti
@TaMara (HFG): Ouch. You’ve broken my heart.
The Moar You Know
@schrodingers_cat: Melania and family + friends didn’t have any trouble.
Betty Cracker
Via TPM, linked above:
Trump is shameless enough to pardon his goons regardless of how it looks, but the judge is making it look as bad as possible.
JPL
40 months..
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Because the US is the only nation in the world that’s suffering from this. Just ignore the UK, Brazil, maybe France too if Macron loses in a few years, oh and Australia with it’s brushfires being completely ignored by far-right leadership
Betty Cracker
Disappointingly light sentence, IMO.
MazeDancer
40 months feels light.
Maybe judge making it harder to pardon?
JPL
If Barr had not interfered, Stone would have the lesser sentence and Barr would not have a revolt at the justice department.
mrmoshpotato
@Mandalay:
???????? Fuck ’em!
JPL
@MazeDancer: CNN mentioned that she gave Manafort 3 1/2 years for lying when the prosecutors asked for 10, so it is in her nature.
germy
Geminid
The different approaches Warren and Sanders have to climate change exemplfy the difference between her pragmatic and his ideological approach. Warren’s is detailed, and uses public investment and mandates to leverage large scale private investment. Sanders’ is abstract, and essentially uses climate change as an excuse for his socialist wish list. Even if his approach could work halfway efficiently, which it can’t, it would not be politically sustainable, and if you want a sustainable planet you have a politically sustainable program to achieve it.
Hoodie
@Cacti: Yeah, the message and the messenger are both flawed. A lot of people hear “socialism” and think of incompetent bureaucrats in some Kafkaesque tableau, which isn’t helped by a guy who claims to be a socialist in a country that really doesn’t have a socialist party that is basically union based with a record of accomplishment and street cred (unlike in some European countries). Instead, he gives the impression of being surrounded by a bunch of out of control grad students.
Mandalay
@MazeDancer:
It does, plus this:
Barr will take care of this now.
:(
West of the Rockies
Can’t stand the MSNBC defense attorney whining about 40 months greatly exceeding norms. Stone isn’t a normal felon.
germy
But Stone, 67, will not have to serve Jackson’s sentence of 40 months in prison yet — and possibly not at all.
Jackson suspended the imposition of the sentence pending her ruling on a request by Stone that he be granted a new trial on the grounds of alleged juror misconduct at his trial last fall.
If Jackson approves that request, the sentenced she announced Thursday is U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., will be void.
mrmoshpotato
@The Dangerman: Hot. Damn.
“You know, your Honor, isn’t the trial and guilty verdict punishment enough?”
patrick Il
@mrmoshpotato:
That’s generally how going to prison works.
randy khan
@Mandalay:
She’d already signaled that he wasn’t going to jail until she considered the motion for a new trial (which is a ridiculous motion, but never mind), and people who are out on bail often don’t get marched off to prison immediately anyway, particularly if they’re going to appeal. So this isn’t any special favor.
low-tech cyclist
Dunno if someone’s already hit this, but in his exchange with Warren, Bloomberg described the NDAs as “agreements between two parties that wanted to keep it quiet.”
NO. THAT’S A FUCKING LIE.
These weren’t agreements between parties that both wanted to keep a particular incident or class of incidents quiet. These are ‘agreements’ that were undoubtedly signed as a condition of employment (IOW, with a certain degree of coercion), and were signed before the women involved ever knew there was going to be an incident to keep quiet.
There’s no reason to believe the women involved “wanted to keep it quiet,” and signed an agreement to that effect only after the incidents in question. That completely defies common sense.
Betty Cracker
@randy khan: So it’s Jackson herself who will make the ruling on a new trial? That’s good to know. I feared the DOJ would shuffle it off to a Trump-appointed hack.
Bex
@Baud: Can you imagine Amy in a debate with Trump trying the “are you saying I’m dumb?” accusation? Pretty sure neither of us would want to.
Cacti
Or some impoverished authoritarian sewer, like Venezuela or Cuba, where everyone is “equally” poor except members of the ruling party.
oldgold
Trump will see this as a win and he will be correct.
randy khan
@Betty Cracker:
Yes, it’s up to her. Then, of course, it will become part of his appeal, although it will remain ridiculous.
tam1MI
Switch out Biden for Warren and this is where I am.
mrmoshpotato
@Amir Khalid: Answer me this, Mr. Funny Man!
Why have we never had a presidential candidate who could safely do a headstand in the rain?!
randy khan
@low-tech cyclist:
I think actually a lot of the NDAs were signed after the fact. Signing an NDA often is a condition when you settle a sexual harassment or sex discrimination case. That’s the trade you make as the person who complained – you get money and the other side gets your silence.
Cacti
Judge Jackson gave Stone a good, stern talking to. Then blinked on the sentence.
What a pity.
patrick Il
@West of the Rockies: I agree. Stone wasn’t lying or obstructing justice about stealing cars, he was lying about foreign interference in a U.S. presidential election. The underlying Crime was as heinous as you can get.
MazeDancer
@JPL: Interesting that ABJ stuck to going light form. Makes it more understandable. Not more likeable, but guess she needed to look not influenced.
takebakawashi
mrmoshpotato
@patrick Il: I realize that.
Cacti
Your assumption is on the mark. Plaintiff gets paid, Defendant doesn’t acknowledge any wrongdoing, and both sides agree not to discuss it publicly again.
patrick Il
@low-tech cyclist: It’s very possible the agreements here signed after the incident took place. You are given a choice – sign and collect $200,000 or don’t sign and enter endless litigation which you can’t afford and we’ll ruin your reputation as well.
patrick Il
@mrmoshpotato:
Sorry. adjusting my sarcasm detector meter now.
Amir Khalid
@mrmoshpotato:
I agree that doing a headstand in the rain is a crucial presidential skill. At the next debate, all candidates should be required to attempt this feat before they take their lectern. The footage should be shown so the public can judge them on it.
For what it’s worth, I think Vermin Supreme’s rubber-boot headgear makes him look a bit — how shall I put this? — Lincolnesque.
JMG
Stone is 67. Three years plus is a long time in jail at that age, at any age really, but more so when in the Medicare demographic.
schrodingers_cat
@The Moar You Know: I was talking about these criminals in his circle. A felony can get you deported even if you are on a green card.
AFAIK Melania or her parents have never been charged with a crime
Hoodie
@Cacti: . . . who will have their 3 houses, including one in the capital and a nice lake house. I don’t see how anyone thinks they’re going to get much traction with socialism when the unemployment rate is under 4%. Yeah, the jobs are inadequate, education, healthcare and housing are too expensive, but folks are not going to want to give up what security they perceive they have in the vague hope that some revolution is going to deliver a worker’s paradise. If you want to sell socialism, market it as something else, e.g., instead of saying you’re giving free tuition, just subsidize the hell out of education to replace what state legislatures have taken away so that there is a cost, but not one that’s so ridiculous. Even if they have to pay just a nickel to attend, people can feel like it’s not socialism because you have to pay for it and they retain some illusion of buyer choice. That’s what Bernie is missing in his “socialism for the rich” argument; he’s right, but people don’t perceive this as socialism and trigger all it’s negative connotations because it’s packaged as a business incentive (business=good, socialism=bad). Do the same damn thing with education, housing, etc.
catclub
@germy: Yes. We need to keep repeating that Trump is historically unpopular. Even at ‘highest approval ever’ for Trump, he is still under water. The economy is very good.
Reagan wins an election this year , on this economy,
with 46 states.
Any Democrat could beat him. The problem is to choose the best one for the country.
Villago Delenda Est
Reference “the pundits”:
My nym. Over and over again.
Wipe them out. All of them.
Mnemosyne
@gwangung:
FWIW, that’s EXACTLY the bait-and-switch that Sirota pilled with O’Rourke: he insisted that individuals who worked in the oil industry donating to O’Rourke was exactly the same thing as taking money directly from those corporations. It’s one of their favorite claims because it’s easy for them to play dumb and insist they can’t see any difference in where the money comes from. ?
polyorchnid octopunch
@Omnes Omnibus: Yep. And I’m free to have my opinion of Americans based on the results of those votes.
I just don’t see Biden as anything other than a ‘look forward not back’ guy, and if that’s the path the US takes after Trump, nobody’s going to base anything on the word of the US that they’ll do something.
tam1MI
@Mnemosyne: The Republicans tried the exact same attack line on Obama.
Lapassionara
Re, the issue of open vs closed primaries, this may be a matter of state law. South Carolina has an open primary, and I expect a lot of Republicans will vote for Sanders.
Duane
@TaMara (HFG): If Trumpov
refuses to debate, then do it featuring statements he’s made, action he’s taken, verifiable facts from his time in office and respond to that. Essentially put him on trial and show what a coward he is by refusing to defend himself.
Betty
@Patricia Kayden: That $450 billion is exactly why getting there will be so hard. It comes from the pockets of people with clout.
germy
BREAKING: Facebook balked at removing misinformation after the 2016 election out of concern it would alienate conservatives
germy
White House builds team to guide clemency process as Trump considers more pardons
The group, led by President Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has been meeting since late last year to discuss a revamped pardon system
trollhattan
@Lapassionara:
In California at least it’s the party, not the state that determines open/closed primaries. Dem primary is open, Republican primary is not.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Betty Cracker:
Yes—less than half of the minimum of the original sentencing recommendation.
mrmoshpotato
I see the damn banner ads are back, and now I want a foundation drill rig.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Yeah, well, take a look at what went down with the UK over the course of WW II and immediately after. That’s happening to you now.
You know “look at that guy over there” really says that you’ve got nothing that actually gainsays my point.
Judging by the reactions here, a lot of Americans have really no idea how they and their country are viewed by people who weren’t inculcated with American Exceptionalism from childhood. It’s different now… very different. It’s different from before Nov 16, and the change is accelerating.
America looks very much like a state in decline, and its decline is rapid.
mrmoshpotato
@Amir Khalid: Top hat? No! Top boot!
Kent
I think some may very well be happy to keep things quiet. Women are not stupid and it is easy enough for anyone to look at how public victims like Christine Blasey Ford were dealt with in the media and conclude that you want no part of that. Having your private life ripped open, having reporters camped outside your front door and outside the door of everyone you have ever known. That’s what happens to anyone with an accusation against a major presidential candidate.
That said, Bloomberg could easily blanket release these women from NDAs but still keep them secret. Or simply announce that he isn’t going to enforce them. He doesn’t have to hold a press conference and say: Here are the 10 NDAs that have been signed over the years that we are vacating. These are the women involved and the facts of each case. Go have fun reporters. In fact, doing that probably would violate the NDAs that he also has signed.
mrmoshpotato
@germy: Their feefees would be hurt over all the bullshit they believe disappearing.
Mnemosyne
@tam1MI:
Democrats weren’t dumb enough to fall for it when it came from the right, but people give it WAY too much credence when it comes from the “left.” And it ain’t a coincidence that head Berniebro Sirota is one of the main purveyors of that bullshit.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: They’ll then go into an incomprehensible gibbering about bundling…
As a three decade veteran in fundraising, my only response is, “That sounds difficult. Wouldn’t it be easier to….just ask for money?”
Mnemosyne
@polyorchnid octopunch:
It looks like a decline to us, too, but we’re the ones desperately trying to get the nose of the airplane back up, so we really don’t have time to discuss the fine points of why we suck right now.
Bill Arnold
@Mnemosyne:
Agree that it is not the same thing at all.
There is the issue of corporate coercion; since all donations are public above a threshold and attached to employer, vindictive employers can reward donations to their preferred candidates and punish donations to the opponents of their preferred candidates. I assume that’s the argument. it’s only valid if the corporations involved engage in said behavior, or more likely but even less provably, if their employees believe that they would engage in said behavior. Easy to spot the cases where donations from corporate employees match the general population; harder if the corporation is politically biased in its own self interest and employees know this, and in fact might have been selected for such bias indirectly or directly.
It might cut other ways too; (hypothetically) progressive candidates suffer a reduction in donations due to vindictive right wing (or, yes, left-leaning) employers or fear that hiring managers will look at these records when making hiring decisions.
The Moar You Know
@catclub: Simply not true, and the polls bear that out.
You need to keep in mind that in order to win the Electoral College as a Dem, your margin needs to be around 5% or so. 52-48 won’t cut it anymore.
Kent
All one has to do is fly from an airport like Singapore to an airport like LAX or LaGuardia and the decline is pretty obvious.
lee
Trump will debate whomever is the Democratic nominee. People were saying Trump wouldn’t debate Hillary last go around and he still did it.
Remember he thinks he has the ‘biggest brain’ and is a ‘stable genius’. He’ll fix up his Adderall and pseudoephedrine cocktail and fire off nonsense for 90 minutes.
Kent
@The Moar You Know:
Exactly. Elections are now brutal affairs in this country and the days of the landslide win are long over. People in a liberal bubble thought Gore was going to easily beat Bush and that Clinton was easily going to beat Trump.
The notion that we don’t need to put our most electable candidate forward because Trump will easily be beaten is wrongheaded in the extreme. He CAN be beat. There is hope. But it an’t going to be easy. Putting forward the least electable candidate is utterly insane. The Trump people are jonesing to run against either Bernie or Mayor Pete. I don’t think they are wrong.
Mnemosyne
@gwangung:
Oh, they were totally trying to imply that the people from oil and gas who donated to Beto were reimbursed by their employers, which is actually fucking illegal as hell. They only backed off of that when I reminded them that they were accusing people of an actual crime and they needed to provide evidence or STFU.
Kent
@The Moar You Know: The only polls that matter are in the swing states and they aren’t nearly that optimistic about an easy Dem win.
The Moar You Know
@Kent: Yup. Was in Scotland over Christmas. Coming back to the US was like coming back to a third world country (and I live in a damn nice part of the US, but it just can’t compare even to the UK).
Betty Cracker
@polyorchnid octopunch: Many of us do get it, I think. I was hoping for a slower, more managed decline, but about 40% of us seem hell-bent on going all Fall of Rome.
Crashman06
@polyorchnid octopunch: This right here. There’s no going back to the way that things were, whether we’re talking about international perception or the literal functionality of our supposed institutions. We are in undiscovered country.
geg6
@schrodingers_cat:
As a fellow cynical curmudgeon of a much older vintage, I couldn’t disagree more. She’s the only one I can stand to watch or listen to. The rest of them have sent me away from MSNBC for the duration because of the slobbering they do over them. And not a one of them with a 10th of the charisma or smarts as she has.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Mnemosyne: These are not fine points. They are fundamental to the problem; it started when the Iran Contra people got left alone and went on to be well-regarded wealthy people in certain circles.
If whoever follows Trump doesn’t start cleaning out the Augean stables, it won’t matter.
catclub
@Betty Cracker: but about 40% of us seem hell-bent on going all Fall of Rome.
Didn’t that take about 300 years? Which is sounding pretty good at the moment.
PenAndKey
@polyorchnid octopunch: We are well aware of this. As I’ve said before, if I could convince my wife that we need to move to Canada I’d already be applying for a Manitoba Express Entry provincial nomination to move their. As it is, she refuses to realistically consider moving so I’ve had to instead do everything in my power to convince my son that when he’s college age he needs to seek his education somewhere where doing so is a path to immigrate.
To be honest, I’m too much of a student of history to have any faith that America is anything but screwed. I’ll keep fighting against it and keep engaged, but at this point it feels more like a rearguard action to protect my family than something that will make things better.
Ksmiami
@polyorchnid octopunch: because we don’t invest in people overall
polyorchnid octopunch
@Betty Cracker: I was watching the thread on Twitter where Jamelle Bouie talked about QAnon. The existence and popularity of QAnon shows that white America has lost its mind. They are weak-willed weak-minded bootlickers. Their fear of losing their demographic advantage has them groveling for a saviour, even Trump. It shows the fundamental childishness of a huge swath of America.
Emergency “Not all white americans” invoked here.
@Crashman06: American imperial decline has entered the rapid phase. I appreciate those of you folks trying to get the nose of the plane above the horizon, but don’t fool yourselves; just winning this next set of elections will not be enough.
If you really go after the war criminals among your elites, and put them in jail, destroy the non-human persons they use to cover for themselves, and immiserate their families by taking their wealth… the rest of the world might start to believe you mean it
ETA: It will also have a salutary effect upon people who are considering emulating them.
Kraux Pas
My Trump-supporting friend, upon my argument that Bernie would have at best a plurality of delegates going into the convention and would be terrible at negotiating for the remaining delegates he needs due to inability to work with people, said Bernie was right about everything and shouldn’t have to work with others.
I said fine, then vote for him. He agreed. My mind is officially blown.
CaseyL
@polyorchnid octopunch: I don’t disagree with you, precisely, but I take @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) ‘s point differently than you do. Anglophone democracy is in decline, Anglophone society is in decline, Anglophone nations are being destroyed by their own people. It’s uncanny.
Baud
@Kraux Pas:
Haven’t Republicans generally been voting for Bernie in the primary?
Cacti
Difficult to near impossible at this point. The judiciary has been seeded with too many authoritarian ideologues with lifetime appointments.
geg6
@Mnemosyne:
Plus, based on what is going on in the UK, I really don’t feel the need to take seriously any criticisms anyone from the UK may have of the US. They watched a malignant clown take over our government and fuck it up and promptly went and did the exact same thing. Excuse me while I laugh in their faces.
JPL
@lee: Agreed. He’s just maneuvering in order to get Hannity the moderator. I’ll debate but only if it’s fair.
Kraux Pas
@Baud: He didn’t actually vote for Trump (prob libertarian) and this sounded sincere.
germy
Excellent LGM reader comment:
Baud
@Kraux Pas:
I get why some Deplorables might be for Bernie.
Libertarians for Bernie is a farce.
Betty Cracker
@polyorchnid octopunch: There was a Qanon rally in Tampa a while back. It drew a couple of hundred people, which isn’t much in a metro area of nearly 3 million but is alarmingly large for a public mass psychosis demonstration.
Kraux Pas
@Baud: He’s against the establishment maaaaaaan.
polyorchnid octopunch
@CaseyL: I won’t argue that the Anglosphere is in big big trouble. Happily, we’ve managed to avoid it in Canada, so far…
Bill Arnold
@polyorchnid octopunch:
It’s terrifyingly easy to spin up conspiracy theories that gullible weak-minded people will curate into a cult. Yes. [1] And up the level of the conspiracy a little and brighter people can be convinced. It helps though if there are underlying (actual) truths. Many cultures are prone to this, though; certainly it is not dominated by the US.
[1] I am not Q. :-)
polyorchnid octopunch
@Cacti: Then you’re going to have to figure something out. This is not really optional, not if the US wants to maintain its privileged place among nations.
West of the Rockies
Here’s hoping that once in prison, green Richard Nixon gets shivved between the eyes.
polyorchnid octopunch
@geg6: I’m not in the UK.
Kent
This is exactly it. I’m a HS teacher in the Pacific Northwest. I basically have three categories of students: (1) affluent white kids who will mostly be fine as their parents are hyper-vigilant about maintaining their privilege, (2) kids of color who will mostly be fine because they understand the world they live in, and (3) working class white kids, a large percentage of who are going to lead declining lives because neither they nor their parents understand the sands shifting under their feet.
Example, I have to fairly equivalent girls in my class from similar socio-economic backgrounds. One is an Asian-american girl who’s single mom works at the nail salon in a nondescript strip mall. She expects that her child will go to Stanford and become a surgeon. If not Stanford, worst case scenario maybe the UW in Seattle and then med school. The other girl? She’s white and her single mom works at the hair salon in the same strip mall. She hopes her daughter will stay off drugs and not get pregnant long enough to go to cosmetology school and join her at the Great Clips where she can get her a chair. It’s all about expectations. The girls are equally smart. Working class white culture has just become utterly toxic.
Baud
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Thanks, Quebecois!
:-)
Mnemosyne
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Keep in mind, my post-Brexit friend, that your airplane is plummeting as well, and for many of the same reasons. Ours is just larger and will result in a bigger hole in the ground.
Kraux Pas
@Baud: He also called Warren “not evil” which seems like progress.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@CaseyL: Not the whole Anglosphere! New Zealand and Canada seem to be doing OK. Rupert Murdoch also has no news presence in either country. I’m not saying Murdoch is the sole cause of everything wrong with the U.S., U.K., and Australia, but he’s certainly been responsible for a lot of damage to all three.
Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpublicānam esse dēlendam.
Patricia Kayden
@Elroy’s Lunch: 40 months is too short imho but we’ll take what we get. Trump sure knows a lot of sleaze bags.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Betty Cracker: I hear ya. One thing about that is… if a few hundred showed up, a few thousand are basically in but not willing to shake their ass out the door.
@Bill Arnold: Indeed. We’ve even got some of those folks up here in the great white north. Again, most of the people (even a lot of the Cons) have the same reaction as that guy at that town hall in the green shirt.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Mnemosyne: Once again, I’m not British. Don’t live in the UK, only been there once for a week 35 years ago.
So take your nativist excuse making and shove it.
germy
@West of the Rockies: Does that really happen in the club fed type prisons that white collar criminals like Stone get sent to?
It’s not like they’re sending him to Rikers Island.
Bill Arnold
@(((CassandraLeo))):
R. Murdoch, destroyer of American Imperialism.
Perhaps it has been his secret plan all along, and even his kids don’t know it. :-)
Cacti
I don’t think it’s going to maintain its place. I think inertia will keep us there for a while, due to the dollar as the default currency for international commerce.
Apart from that though, the structural limitations of our governmental system have been strained past the breaking point. I think the next great national or international crisis will send us tumbling from our perch permanently.
Leto
@geg6:
UK’s failure to ban far-right groups undermines fight against online extremism, report finds
This is just one example of the fucking cesspool of British white nationalism/fascism that’s part and parcel of the “British Empire”. Anyone from the UK trying to talk to us about how we need to deal with our issue needs to suck a bag of salted dicks. They’ve had more open ultra right wing political groups as part of their national politics than soccer clubs, at all levels. PO trying to tell us that we need to jail our politicians when not a single Tory/Labor leader who led them into Iraq has faced anything other than a mild scoffing at a tea party. He/she/they can summarily fuck right off.
Mary G
The sentence is disappointingly low when you consider all the damage Stone has done to the country from Nixon to astroturfing College Republicans to inventing crooked lobbying with Manafort and Black to the Brooks Brothers riot handing the election to GWB and pushing Twitler to run. But it’s way more consequences than he’s gotten before. If he does get locked up it’ll be a happy day.
germy
Peale
@germy: Did that defense work for those guys who robbed banks in clown masks? Inquiring minds want to know?
PenAndKey
@polyorchnid octopunch: “So take your nativist excuse making and shove it.”
And this, right here, is why so many of us are telling you that A) we fucking get that we’re screwed, and B) we don’t have time for your concern trolling.
geg6
@polyorchnid octopunch:
Can’t speak for Mnem, but I didn’t see either us making excuses, just making the point that your example of the UK after WWII would have been much better had you pointed to the current UK political situation, which is actually a better comparison for the US’ situation than post-WWII Britain.
Bill Arnold
@germy:
I so want a Mulvaney vs Miller cage match.
KSinMA
@low-tech cyclist: Thank you.
Leto
@Bill Arnold: per reporting last week, Mulvaney is on the chopping block so a death match between the two invertebrates would be a fine spectacle. But I’m sure ole Mick will land softly at his next wingnut welfare post.
Again, he’s my former congressfucker. SMFH.
Edit: since he was speaking in England, I guess he means more white people. I’m guessing his next stop is Normay…
germy
@Bill Arnold: Miller’s strength has been sapped because he lost some of his vital essence during his recent honeymoon.
catclub
@germy: I thought it was going to be his “The Gop doesn’t care about deficits unless a Democrat is president, statement. But yours is another from him saying the quiet parts loud.
JMG
Debate had audience of 20 million. Much more than last one. People are starting to pay attention.
germy
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Cacti: Three words: Pack. The. Motherfucking. Courts.
… oh, that came out as four words. I’ll come in again.
Trump is an illegitimate president*, which makes all his judicial appointees* illegitimate as well. Unfortunately, no workable constitutional mechanism exists for removing appointees* of an illegitimate president*; the votes to impeach them will never exist. Which leaves us with one option:
Pack. The. Motherfucking. Courts.
People have talked for a while about doing this with the Supreme Court, and I agree with them. But it extends far beyond that, down to every possible level of the court system. Trump only even got to nominate many of those judges* because McConnell refused to hold hearings on nominees that legitimately should have been Obama’s. It wasn’t just Merrick Garland.
This isn’t going to stop anytime soon. It’s just what the GOP does now. Which leaves us with one countermeasure:
Pack. The. Motherfucking. Courts.
As for the inevitable reply – “Republicans will just do the same once they get power again” – I would argue that they already have done it; refusing to consider Obama’s nominees was merely court-packing by another name.
And in any case, the Latin phrase I end all my comments with comprises my more substantive response to the Republican Party. (For those unwilling/unable to check on Google Translate: “Furthermore, I opine that the Republican Party must be destroyed.”) The party must be razed to the ground, the crops burned, the fields salted, its corpse shot with a silver bullet, a stake driven through its heart, the ashes scattered to the four winds.
The Republican Party is an existential threat to this country and the entire planet. We must use every tool at our disposal to defeat them. This means, at times, fighting dirty, and I know a lot of left-leaning people aren’t comfortable with that. But you’ll be much less comfortable when millions of people have to evacuate Florida because it’s sinking under the sea. Just imagine what Florida Man might do outside his natural habitat.
The reason I support Warren above all the others is she’s the only one who’s displayed a full understanding of the threat the Republican Party poses and presented detailed plans to counter it. I can imagine Biden and Buttigieg engaging in weak-kneed “look forward, not back” bullshit. Warren didn’t come to play games like that. She’s shown a better grasp of the stakes than anyone who was ever in the race except perhaps Harris, Inslee, and possibly Klobuchar. And she has more detailed plans on politics overall than any of them. (Inslee’s climate plans are basically the basis for everyone else’s, though – credit where it’s due.)
But if we don’t clean up the court system, none of these changes will last more than a couple years. Which returns me to my original point:
Pack. The. Motherfucking. Courts.
Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpublicānam esse dēlendam.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Leto: JFC you people are thick. I’m Not A Citizen Of The UK.
Leto
@Mary G:
He’s still out while his case is appealed, and if Trumpov is defeated in Nov he’ll pardon Stone in another batch of corruption. I’m a bit pessimistic today. DoJ, before revision, suggests 7-9 and Judge ABJ already indicated she wasn’t going to give that much even after all the fuckery he did during the trial, not to mention all the absolute shit he did to be convicted in the first place. Just irritated.
polyorchnid octopunch
@geg6: The reason I picked the UK after WW II is because the UK was top dog in the world before WW II. It wasn’t afterwards.
KithKanan
@Baud: Libertarians for Bernie is obviously more about temperament than policy. All policy positions aside, if there’s one thing every Libertarian I’ve ever known stands for it’s believing they’re “right about everything and shouldn’t have to work with others”
Cacti
@(((CassandraLeo))): That only works if the Dems win all of the political branches, and hold them for more than a single cycle.
What are the odds of that happening with Commissar Bernie, of the People’s Republic of Vermont, at the top of the ticket?
smintheus
@Cacti: “It’s like she has battered wife syndrome with Bernie and his supporters.”
Your hatred of Warren is getting pathological.
(((CassandraLeo)))
@Cacti: If you’ll notice, I’m not supporting him. This is in fact a primary reason why. Also, my fears that he’d just be a complete disaster as an administrator and as a general election campaigner, and his unwillingness to offer more than mealy-mouthed rebukes of the Bros, and his health problems… ok, there are lots of great reasons not to support him.
Preaching to the choir on this one, in other words.
Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpublicānam esse dēlendam.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Leto:
They rake their forest’s there…or is that Finland?
Brachiator
@Kent:
I guess that people have been debating this point since before the primary campaign began. But I am still puzzled. As far as I can tell, the most “electable” candidate is the one who people vote for. I do not know how you can designate in advance who this person might be.
Early on I was a Harris supporter. Hell, I even liked Yang. I will likely vote for Warren in the upcoming California primary.
And for the record, I believe that any Democratic challenger can beat Trump if enough voters decide they are tired of his shit. It is not about a magical “Most Electable.” It’s about what people want this country to be.
I also believe that the Democrats will have to peel off some people who previously voted for Trump. This takes something more than someone simply asserting “Vote for me, I’m an old white guy,” or “Vote for me, I’m an old, rich, white guy.”
ETA: I agree that Trump would love to run against Bernie. I don’t bother with the stories, but I do look at Fox News headlines. I have seen a surprising number of pro-Trump stories lately. These dopes are so transparent.
Cacti
@(((CassandraLeo))): Didn’t say you were. But at present, Bernie has the inside lane with only about 25% support, while the remaining 5 candidates have a food fight with each other over who should be the not-Bernie.
If they keep splitting that vote 5-ways through Super Tuesday, it may be too late.
joel hanes
@CaseyL:
Anglophone nations are being destroyed by their own people
Canada and New Zealand not so much. New Zealand in particular seems to have adult leadership.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the steepest declines are in Great Britain, the US, and Australia, the three English-speaking countries in which Rupert Murdoch’s efforts have achieved full flower.
misterpuff
@Bill Arnold: I’m assuming Mulvaney’s unspoken assumption is “white”. “We need white immigrants”.
Unless he was implying the US would take the UK’s immigrants off their hands…..not.
Betty Cracker
@joel hanes: Good point about Murdoch.
Kraux Pas
@misterpuff: Weren’t the immigrants the UK was most worried about Polish?
J R in WV
@TaMara (HFG):
I did it some weeks ago, and haven’t missed anything of importance. Love the new pie filter, the images, etc, etc.
Thanks Watergirl!!! Thanks cleek !! Thanks M^4!!! So easy to use, to look at potentially interesting comments covered by the pretty fruit pie. To skip frantic meandering crazy talk…!
Suzanne
@piratedan: Agreed. I don’t share the hatred of Bernie that much of the readership has here, because I think his policies would be for the betterment of the country. Having said that, I don’t think he is capable of making them real. He reminds me of a talented first-year architecture student, the one who has beautiful ideas and lovely renderings, but when you look closely, you see that the building could in no way actually stand up. (I should note that I also think the Berniebros are terrible, but there’s a lot of his support who isn’t terrible.)
I am supporting Warren at this point because, if she was an architecture student, she’d have an equally great idea, and would bring a full Life Safety analysis and rendered wall sections to her final review.
Hoodie
@smintheus: It’s more frustration in my case. She is hands down the most talented, but she could be a lot stronger candidate if she’d act more like the righteous crusader she was in slicing up Bloomberg’s behavior than the pedant picking on Klobuchar’s and Buttagieg’s health plans. My biggest beef with her right now is that she doesn’t go after Sanders’ character like she went after Bloomberg’s. The guy is a charlatan, not that much different from the business predators she goes after on a regular basis. Go after him on the failure to disclose finances and heath, the three houses, the silly insistence on calling himself a socialist, his creepy campaign staff.
nyrobbin
@(((CassandraLeo))):
Come sit by me. (It better be a l-o-n-g couch)
Brachiator
@(((CassandraLeo))):
I would say, three words: Win. The. Motherfucking. Senate.
… oh, that came out as four words. I’ll come in again.
Win. The. Motherfucking. White House.
And, Win. The. Motherfucking. Senate.
Nothing can happen with the courts unless the Democrats retake the Senate. And then, there might be other remedies available.
There’s also no constitutional mechanism to designate a president as Illegitimate. Just saying.
I guess this seems to be where we are. What are you going to do about people who vote Republican? Get rid of them, too? And ultimately fighting dirty may result in the demise of democracy. The GOP has set us on a dismal path with their embrace of Trump. I keep hoping for a restoration, and elimination of the partisan rancor.
Brachiator
Jesus. I was in too much of a hurry in a prior post. Corrective ETA.
ETA: I agree that Trump would love to run against Bernie. I don’t bother with the stories, but I do look at Fox News headlines. I have seen a surprising number of pro-Sanders stories there lately. These dopes are so transparent.
smintheus
@Hoodie: How is it pedantry to point out that Klobuchar and Buttigieg are charlatans with regard to health care policy? She took hammer and tongs to Bloomberg because he’s trying to buy the nomination. Everyone else on stage, whether charlatan or not (and lots of pols are charlatans), is trying to earn the nomination by presenting themselves to voters so she may feel they deserve not to be undressed in humiliating fashion.
smintheus
@Brachiator: Yeah, it was obvious what you meant so I just auto-corrected your typo as I read it.
I think the same point in reverse is also worth considering: Who do Trumplings not want to see nominated? Reading the debate assessment this morning from the stable of NYT bloviators, it seemed apparent that all the right-wingers had an exceptionally strong tilt against Warren’s debate performance. Everyone else (including Bernie-bro Bruenig) rated Warren very highly whereas the crazies like Stephens claimed that she was diastrously bad. As you say, they’re transparent.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
How is it none of the other campaigns have this problem. Warren is far more progressive and competent (by a million miles) than Sanders and she doesn’t have this problem.
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
I am put off by the essential emptiness of Bernie. I’m not even sure I approve of his policies. All he offers is a mishmash of how many advanced European countries work, with no understanding of how they built their progressive societies; nor does he demonstrate any awareness or contemporary challenges to their continued existence as progressive societies.
Worse. he and his most ardent supporters see the Democratic Party as the enemy. I do not understand why he is not challenged on this. Your observations about Sanders make me wonder how he could ever get the support of Congressional Democrats if he insists on viewing them as sell-outs to corporate interests.
Sanders supporters I’ve encountered in the real world have been a happy, diverse, enthusiastic bunch of people. Those I read about or sometimes encounter in social media, tend to be jerks and zealots.
zhena gogolia
@Hoodie:
Yep.
WhatsMyNym
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Been there, done that. A friend was required to do that at his cabin up in the Sierra Nevada. It was in a subdivision in the forest. Had to rake it to the dirt, clear brush, remove dead limbs and clear off roof. Being on a steep slope made it even more fun.
ETA: this was 25 years ago, so some folks were already taking the risk seriously even back then. If you didn’t do it, they would do it for you and send you the bill.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Brachiator: their tee vee shows have been pushing Sanders, especially Tucker Carlson. In appreciation, Sanders appeared on their Sunday news show, 48 hours before the NH primary.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti:
Well, the solution to this is obvious, is it not?
joel hanes
@Hoodie:
My biggest beef with [Warren] right now is that she doesn’t go after Sanders’ character like she went after Bloomberg’s
I think she will.
When fighting multiple foes, it’s usually best to concentrate fire to defeat the biggest immediate threat , and then move on to the next. Yesterday it was essential to discredit Bloomberg before he did more damage, and she did that.
Bernie’s next, and I don’t think she’ll wait for the next debate to initiate.
joel hanes
@WhatsMyNym:
a subdivision in the forest
Off Highway 4, near Big Trees State Park and Arnold ?
I used to spend time at a nice cabin in that one.
Ruckus
Guys,
Not one of the candidates is perfect. Several are way to far from it to be considered but we have a crisis on our hands, so they get consideration.
Ask yourself who would be the best choice for you. Next ask yourself who comes closest to that ideal. Vote for that person.
The people running, one of them will be president. They will never be an exact match to your perfect. Perfect does not exist. Perfect is a dream.
notjonathon
@polyorchnid octopunch: W was no aberration. The pattern was already set–Nixon, Reagan, Poppy, W and now T.
Nixon’s VP went to jail, three or four of his top advisors went to jail; Reagan’s AG went to jail, his VP orchestrated Iran-Contra but got elected President instead of going to jail; W’s VP got drunk and shot a man in the face but didn’t go to jail–the list goes on.
We have two political parties in the US. One is corrupt and right-wing; the other is bat shit criminally insane.
Hoodie
@smintheus: They are not being charlatans; you just don’t like what they’re offering, which is fine, but that doesn’t make them charlatans. Unlike Warren and Sanders, Buttagieg and Klobuchar are not making any representations that they are comprehensively overhauling the health care system; in fact, the whole “moderate” schtick is claiming practical political considerations stand in the way of doing that, and that incremental stuff is the best you can hope for. It’s pedantic to say they didn’t do their homework thoroughly enough for your satisfaction, when they thought that that was the homework they needed to do given their position on the issue. Warren is wasting ammunition going after them because they’re kind of throwing in the towel anyway as far as that issue is concerned. People will decide between them and Warren based on whether they agree with the general proposition that healthcare needs to transition to M4A vs. keeping the status quo with tweaks, understanding that the latter will not be as comprehensive, but may be more doable from a political standpoint.
joel hanes
@notjonathon:
You’re using a definition of “right-wing” with which I am not familiar.
smintheus
@Hoodie: Their “tweaks” would either do nothing or make the system worse. They both present that nonsense as reformist, which it is not. True reformers think about how to fix problems, rather than just tossing out some nonsense to appear to be in favor of reform. “Medicare for all who want it” is nonsense, as 1 minute of thought would have been sufficient to make clear.
Fwiw, I’m not in favor of M4A. I favor a national health service. Nevertheless Warren’s proposal is serious and substantive and would significantly improve over the system we have.