Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

A Senator Walker would also be an insult to reason, rationality, and decency.

It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

“Squeaker” McCarthy

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Let there be snark.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

You are here: Home / Guest Posts / Medium Cool with BGinCHI / Medium Cool with BGinCHI – The King (2019)

Medium Cool with BGinCHI – The King (2019)

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Tonight we kick off our first episode of the weekly Guest Post series: Medium Cool with BGinCHI.

In case you missed the introduction to the series last week:  Culture as a Hedge Against this Soul-Sucking Political Miasma We’re Living In

BG sent me this last night:

“Fresh off re-watching The King, and am doubly, triply amazed by it. I have tons to say, and will do so in comments as the thread unfolds.”

Without further ado, I bring you Bradley Greenburg on The King:

This week’s Medium Cool takes a look at “The King” (2019, dir. David Michôd). The film showed up on many people’s radar because it stars Timothée Chalamet and features Robert Pattinson. As I said in the comments of last week’s introductory thread, this past fall I taught a grad Shakespeare seminar devoted to the Henriad (Richard II, 1 & 2 Henry IV, Henry V). So, when “The King” came out I was dreading seeing it, and held off til the end of the semester.

Watching it, I was floored by its smart, insightful interpretation of its source materials. Especially interesting is its portrayal of filial & fraternal relations, its keen attention to the brutalities of power, a reinvigoration of Falstaff’s character and relationship with Hal, and a savagely confrontational Catherine.

Let’s use this thread to discuss how the film tells the story of Henry V, the so-called “mirror of all Christian kings,” who united England after many years of civil unrest and beat the French against all odds at Agincourt.

What works? What doesn’t?

Reader Interactions

196Comments

  2. 2.

    HinTN

    Having not seen the thing, who does Timothée Chalamet play? He’s gonna steal the scene, guaranteed.

  4. 4.

    oatler.

    Medium Cool is a tough movie. Part was filmed in front of a real Chicago police riot. Plus a bunch of Zappa music.

  5. 5.

    K488

    Enjoyed it immensely, but missed Shakespeare’s language (I know; it’s a completely different thing, but some of those set-piece speeches in Henry V are hard-wired for me).

  6. 6.

    zhena gogolia

    @K488:

    I haven’t seen it and probably won’t (no Netflix and low tolerance for beheadings), but I’m curious what Bradley thinks about the absence of Shakespeare’s language. It was what the critics I saw complained about.

  8. 8.

    Wag

    I haven’t yet had a chance to watch the movie, but look forward to seeing it soon.

    last summer we visited England. One of the highlights was staying with friends who lived in a charming town, Market Bosworth. Their backyard overlooked the site of the Battle of Bosworth, where Richard II was killed by the army of Henry IV. It was a beautiful pastoral place. Walking the battlefield in a light rain was very nice.

  9. 9.

    JPL

    PBA Atl has been replaying Masterpiece Theater’s version of Les Mis and although I though Anne Hathaway was fabulous there are parts of this version that I like the most.    Dominic West was excellent as Valjean.    Les Mis is such a tragic story since it ends as it begins with a lot of deaths in between.

  10. 10.

    Omnes Omnibus

    I’ll leave almost all the historical inaccuracies aside since most of them were committed by Billy S., but I can never really get past that Hotspur, Hal, and the Dauphin were NOT of a similar age.  Hotspur was older than Henry IV and the Dauphin was about 10 years younger than Henry V.

    One of the things that I found interesting was where Falstaff (the professional soldier version) talks Henry V out of killing the French prisoners by telling him he is not that man.  Henry then goes on to prove that he is indeed that man by ordering the killing of prisoners immediately following Falstaff’s death.  Would he have spared them had Falstaff still been around or would he have revealed himself as that man to his friend? *

    *Henry V historically did kill French prisoners.  He was a bit of an asshole and a religious fanatic to boot.  But he was successful in war so medieval history sees him as a good king.

  11. 11.

    Brachiator

    Sadly I do not have Netflix, but am curious about the reaction to this film.

    And a work somewhat inspired by Shakespeare without Shakespearean language? Interesting.

  12. 12.

    MattF

    Watched it over the past week. Was struck by how it was taken for granted that killing a lot of people was how a king demonstrated his power. And Hal was not particularly reluctant to do it.

  13. 13.

    HinTN

    @BGinCHI: Which makes perfect sense and means he doesn’t have to steal the scene. Hal’s growth into Henry V is magnificent as-is.

    ETA: Good casting, I think.

  17. 17.

    BGinCHI

    @zhena gogolia: It’s probably an occupational hazard, but I didn’t miss the language at all. I’ve read the plays so many times, and seen quite a few productions, plus there’s Welles’ Chimes at Midnight, the Olivier and Branagh films of Henry V. The recent BBC series The Hollow Crown did all 4 plays, with amazing casts, but they left me cold.

    If you want a film of Shakespeare’s plays of these events, this is not the film.

    But then again, in a different way, it is. It takes the historical material, considers what Shakespeare does with it, then offers another interpretation of power, kingship, father-son relationships, and so on. Thrillingly so, and in a way Will would have liked. In no small part because it’s very keen to press on motives, which all of Shakespeare’s plays are deeply interested in. What motivates a character to do what she or he does? Can they admit it to others? To themselves? What happens when they deny it? See King Lear for that one…

  18. 18.

    HinTN

    @Brachiator: They’re doing that all over now. Mrs H and I saw The Taming of the Shrew staged as a western last summer in Vancouver and two wonderful plays (Midsummer and Cymbeline) sans (perhaps with modified) language this past month.

  20. 20.

    BGinCHI

    @Wag: Richard III and Henry VII, though at the time the latter was just Richmond (who became the first Tudor monarch).

  21. 21.

    HinTN

    @WaterGirl: Yes, I think that is possible. However, it’s geometrically more difficult to exceed the expectation written into your character. /pedant. ;^)

  22. 22.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: Good points.

    The film is good at exploring the way a man (Henry V) who wants to avoid war gets drawn into it, and who was probably afraid all along that he wanted it a bit more than he was willing to admit. Catherine’s scathing speech to him is interesting on this subject as well.

  25. 25.

    Omnes Omnibus

    An interesting historical note:  Within a little over 20 years after Agincourt, the English under one of Henry V’s younger brothers lost all of France but Calais to Charles VII (one of the Dauphin’s younger brothers) with the aid of Joan of Arc.  Henry’s conquests were personal and unsustainable.  And Henry VI’s mental instability could very well have come through his French mother.  And thus The War of the Roses.

  26. 26.

    BGinCHI

    @MattF: Yes!

    Here’s the epilogue to Henry V:

    Chorus
    Thus far, with rough and all-unable pen,

    Our bending author hath pursued the story,

    In little room confining mighty men,

    Mangling by starts the full course of their glory.

    Small time, but in that small most greatly lived

    This star of England: Fortune made his sword;

    By which the world’s best garden be achieved,

    And of it left his son imperial lord.

    Henry the Sixth, in infant bands crown’d King

    Of France and England, did this king succeed;

    Whose state so many had the managing,

    That they lost France and made his England bleed:

    Which oft our stage hath shown; and, for their sake,

    In your fair minds let this acceptance take.

  27. 27.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: Shakespeare covers all this in his Henry VI plays (parts 1, 2, & 3). These were written and performed earlier (early 1590s), and made his bones as a playwright.

    They’re not nearly as fun to read as the Henriad. Even geniuses get better.

  28. 28.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI: Again, there is the contrast with history.  Part of Hal’s actual conflict with his father was that he was the leader of the pro-war party within the council.  Sometimes, with the Henriad, it is best not to connect it with the actual events and people.

  29. 29.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    I saw it a couple months back. I was expecting it to be a Netflix series and was surprised when it kept going after about 50 minutes and then realized it was a movie.

    Chalamet was very good in the lead role and Pattinson’s portrayal of the French Dauphin was dementedly condescending. Very enjoyable. I was a little disappointed that it didn’t cover much more of Henry’s life than the Shakespeare play, but then I was expecting a series not a movie.

    Did Henry fight in many battles as a prince before the period portrayed in the movie? I almost got the impression from the movie that his carousing was a coping mechanism for dealing with PTSD from earlier battles. I liked it although it is pretty grim of course.

  33. 33.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: Exactly.

    There’s this interesting tension in 1 & 2 Henry IV between the historical record (which Shakespeare knew well) and the play.

    In the former, Hal took over his father’s council when the king became ill, and it was rumored he was impatient for his father to die so that he could take over. There’s not of this in the play…..except there kind of is. Late in 2 Henry IV, when the king is on his deathbed, and Hal has come in and walked off with the crown to lament how it has stolen his father’s life, the king wakes up and accuses Hal of wishing him dead so he could take over. This doesn’t square with the plays, really, as he’s clearly been berating him for doing the opposite: not caring about his princely duties, etc.

    This is one of the things that makes these plays so much fun to learn and teach and re-read.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    I don’t have Netflix and haven’t seen the movie, so I will absorb all the culture and history through you guys.

    Thanks for hosting, BG.

  35. 35.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI: The Henriad does the father-son thing well with the three pairs of fathers and sons, Henrys IV &V, Charles VI and the Dauphin, and Percy and Hotspur.  There is a lot of time with a therapist needed among those six.

    Also, Henry and Catherine seem to show a much more modern, not to say anachronistic, view of statecraft than is seen in the other characters.

  36. 36.

    BGinCHI

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: I’m just going to drop this into the thread as a deeper contextual dive. Yes, Henry grew up fighting against rebellions, mostly in Wales. My only complaint about The King is that they might have attributed his anti-war ideas to his earlier experiences.

     

    Shakespeare
    In the Henriad, Hal’s prodigal routine begins in scene 2 of 1 Henry IV, where we also meet Falstaff in an Eastcheap tavern. Hal, Prince of Wales and future Henry V, redeems himself at Shrewsbury (where he kills Hotspur in single combat) at the end of the play. At the end of 2 Henry IV, he again reconciles with his father, who on his deathbed counsels his son to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels.” Hal then becomes king and rejects Falstaff. The play Henry V covers the young king’s plans to invade France and his triumphs there. Falstaff does not appear in this play except as reported dying, then dead, in Act 2.
    Chronicle History
    Shakespeare had a thorough knowledge of this period in English history (circa 1399-1420), obtained mainly from Holinshed’s Chronicles. Historically, Hal, born in Monmouth (in Wales, on the English border), grew up leading his father’s forces in Wales against Owen Glyndŵr’s rebellion. At 16, he fought in the Battle of Shrewsbury and was badly wounded in the face by an arrow. This seasoned soldier and campaigner did not have a misspent youth, did not spend all his time carousing with Falstaff in a London tavern, nor did he kill Hotspur. These legendary tales were ginned up to backfill Henry’s life story as a war hero.
    Falstaff
    Falstaff’s character is a construction. As the fat knight who brags, borrows, and bluffs his way into favor as Hal’s boon companion, he’s entirely made up. But in Shakespeare’s first iteration of the Henry IV plays, “Falstaff” was named “Oldcastle.” After the latter’s (distant) heirs complained to the censor, this was changed to the name we’re familiar with. Oldcastle was Sir John Oldcastle, a Herefordshire knight who soldiered with Hal in Wales. They were clearly friends. This becomes clear later, when Oldcastle became a Lollard, whom Henry V begged to reconcile with the church. He refused and was burned to death for heresy.

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI: What’s with usurping English kings’ henchmen and their horses?  During the War of the Roses, Warwick supposedly turned the tide of a battle by killing his horse in front of his men to show that he was not going to flee to safety.

  41. 41.

    Mnemosyne

    @mrmoshpotato:

    It was okay. Too French. I still can’t figure out how the inspector magically solved the mystery just in time to catch Jeanne Moreau. I can see why it made her a star, though.

  43. 43.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: What’s worse are the French nobles the night before Agincourt, composing verses for, & bragging on, their horses.

    Super arrogant and silly.

    English mockery of the French knows no limits.

  47. 47.

    Wolvesvalley

    Thanks for hosting this series, BG!

    I haven’t seen the film, but I have read a review that describes a scene in which Henry IV threatens to disinherit Prince Hal in favor of his younger brother Thomas. Is this scene based on historical evidence? Could such a threat possibly have been considered credible, considering that primogeniture had been well-established in England since the Norman Conquest? (Unless I am misinformed.)

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @BGinCHI:

    Right. Now, when your grandkid wants to marry American actress, you can’t even throw him in the Tower without people looking askance.

  52. 52.

    MattF

    Also, I thought the business of civil strife during H4’s reign being ‘fixed’ by H5’s statesmanship wasn’t  treated in a believable fashion. It was clear that the main action was pointed towards Agincourt and it was necessary to get the Scots and the Welsh out of the picture for Hal to get there.

  53. 53.

    BGinCHI

    @Wolvesvalley: It’s not based on the history, no. There was some conflict between Hal and his brothers, but it didn’t take the form it does in the film.

    I’m guessing they contrived that to have Hal overcome his anti-war stance (by saving his brother) and also to arrange the one-on-one between Hal & Hotspur without having to actually show the Battle of Shrewsbury, which is climactic in history and in 1 Henry IV.

  57. 57.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Wolvesvalley: Ahistorical, but one the things about being a medieval king was that one had to be able to hold the throne.  And Henry IV was exactly a true believer in primogeniture since he threw his cousin off the throne and took it for himself in preference to other people with an arguably better claim to the throne.

    In the movie, there is a scene where an archbishop is boring everyone to death with a treatise on Salic law which forbids inheriting through a female line blah, blah, blah….  That very issue would end up being the legal justification for both sides in the War of the Roses, although the real issues was who could take and hold the crown.

  62. 62.

    tokyokie

    I am among the lucky few who got to see it in a theater — I think it played a week at the Magnolia in Dallas — and I went because an interest in Aussie neo-noir has gotten me to follow the output of David Michôd and the Edgerton brothers. (And I still contend that Michôd’s Animal Kingdom is one of the best movies of the last 20 years.) Anyway, I hadn’t read anything about the movie, I just knew that Michôd directed it and the cast featured Joel Edgerton, and that was enough to attract me. Because of my lack of knowledge of English history and the time it took my crappy hearing to adjust to the English accents, I wasn’t quite sure what king the movie was about for the first half-hour or so, but once that was out of the way, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I need to see it again, but alas, I don’t have Netflix. Perhaps the Criterion Collection will release it on Blu-ray in a year’s time, as was the case with Roma (the Cuarón one, not the Fellini one).

  64. 64.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: That scene is terrific response to Olivier & Branagh, in that the king just cuts it off, totally out of context, and asks why the hell the AB is telling him all this.

    I also love the addition of the AB in the litter/sedan chair contraption following the army around, with no one paying him any mind.

  66. 66.

    BGinCHI

    @Wag: It’s great you toured that battle field. Shrewsbury is similar, though it’s mostly a field you can walk around. It does have a Visitors Center.

  68. 68.

    BGinCHI

    @tokyokie: It’s worth watching with closed captioning on, since a lot of the dialogue is fast and mumbled.

    Glad you got to see it on a big screen.

  70. 70.

    Barbara

    @BGinCHI: We visited Flodden Field, where there doesn’t seem to be much more than a marker. I ended up putting off The King because my other half started reading Hardy’s FFTMC and wanted to watch one of the several versions. I will watch The King sometime this week.

  72. 72.

    senyordave

    Ot, there goes another feel-good memory.  From an article about a reunion of the 1980 US hockey team, aka “Miracle on ice”.

    Many members of the team were in Las Vegas over the weekend to celebrate the 40th anniversary of their shocking upset of the Soviet Union and attended a campaign rally Trump was holding the night before the Nevada Democratic caucus. But they didn’t just attend — they appeared on stage, with every present team member wearing a red “Keep America Great” hat.

    They should all go fuck themselves with the blunt end of a hockey stick.

    I hate older white males.

  74. 74.

    BGinCHI

    @Barbara:  Good! Report back!

    I like walking battlefields, for whatever reason. Civil War, British, Welsh, French.

    I grew up very near the site of the Battle of Tippecanoe (Tecumseh, the Prophet, Wm Henry Harrison), on which I played a lot as a kid, so that’s probably why.

  75. 75.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    They reran it here last year. I watched it, then got the DVD from my library the next day, and watched it that night. I think it should have gotten much more attention.

  79. 79.

    NotMax

    Was a little surprised at how overtly it suggestively implied Falstaff and Hal were (or had been) , um, more than just friends.

  80. 80.

    Sab

    @BGinCHI: I did my junior year in England right near the Battle of Nevilles Cross ( which in 1975 was a lovely field) that I walked by every day. The Scots invaded Northumberland and Durham, not vice versa. Which they had done before and would do later. Often with French instigation.

    Despite my Highland Scots ancestry, hard not to sympathise with the English on that one.

  82. 82.

    BGinCHI

    @NotMax: Gus Van Sant’s My Own Private Idaho plowed that field a long time ago.

    As have lots of scholars, who argue for a closer relationship than just surrogate father/son.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BGinCHI: I went to Waterloo a few years ago.  From the mound (pace Wellington), it is amazing how the battlefield is laid out within eyesight and looks just like the maps.  The battlefields of WWI, WWII, and later are so much larger that you can’t really take them in from one place with the naked eye.

  85. 85.

    BGinCHI

    @Omnes Omnibus: That’s an excellent point.

    The scale so different once major artillery and technology enter the picture. Older battles can almost seem intimate (Little Bighorn, for ex.).

  87. 87.

    Baud

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    There is some YouTube channel that examines the historical accuracy of movies, and some Russian film about Napoleon was rated the most accurate, including the battle scenes.   I wish I could remember the name of the channel and the film.

  90. 90.

    Sab

    @BGinCHI: A far as I can tell it is currently mostly ethnically Irish, because everyone local has been wiped out by their ruling classes’ wars for the last 1000 years.

  94. 94.

    BGinCHI

    @NotMax: I like the way he’s played as dying in front of us, with no idea how to get a handle on current affairs.

    It doesn’t hurt that Mendelsohn is a great actor.

  97. 97.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Did you see BG at #39?  He said he is disappointed that you aren’t running for president this year.

    Heresy!

    You are being disappeared just like Warren, and by one of our own!

  100. 100.

    Sab

    @NotMax: A lot of the lesser Henrys were interesting, and probably good rulers (conservative about spending national blood and treasure abroad to monetize the war barons.)  Henry IV and Henry VII spring to mind.

  101. 101.

    Brachiator

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’ll leave almost all the historical inaccuracies aside since most of them were committed by Billy S., but I can never really get past that Hotspur, Hal, and the Dauphin were NOT of a similar age. Hotspur was older than Henry IV and the Dauphin was about 10 years younger than Henry V.

    I have not seen the Netflix film and it’s been a while since I’ve read these plays, but I recall noting how having these characters similar in age provided the the tension in the themes of fathers and sons, kings and princely responsibility.  Hotspur and Hal were a bit like Achilles and Hector, two champions destined to confront one another. And I recall Hotspur having an aura of nobility, but severely underestimating Henry.

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    @BGinCHI

    Gut, purely subjective feeling is it would have worked even better had an additional (major) liberty been taken of including its own recurring Rosencrantz and Guildenstern type of characters to not only tie threads together and turn the page to the next set piece, as it were, but allow the audience breathing room to chew on what has been happening.

  105. 105.

    Brachiator

    @HinTN:

    They’re doing that all over now. Mrs H and I saw The Taming of the Shrew staged as a western last summer in Vancouver.

    A western? Sounds like fun.

    I still think that the movie “10 Things I Hate About You” is one of the best and most charming modernizations of “Taming of the Shrew,”

  106. 106.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    @Baud: What’s remarkable is that she was alive for the Bertie-Wallis show.  I wonder what she thinks of the almost total dissolution of the Empire during her reign.

  108. 108.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    I see Medium Cool in the title and keep thinking that someone is going to talk about the Wexler film.

  109. 109.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @WaterGirl: I fear something like this:

    Well now, the result of last week’s competition when we asked you to find a derogatory term for the Belgians. Well, the response was enormous and we took quite a long time sorting out the winners. There were some very clever entries. Mrs Hatred of Leicester Said ‘let’s not call them anything, let’s just ignore them’ … (applause starts vigorously, but he holds his hands up for silence) … and a Mr St John of Huntingdon said he couldn’t think of anything more derogatory than Belgians. (cheers and applause; a girl in showgirl costume comes on and holds up placards through next bit) But in the end we settled on three choices: number three … the Sprouts (placard ‘The Sprouts’), sent in by Mrs Vicious of Hastings… very nice ; number two….. the Phlegms (placard) … from Mrs Childmolester of Worthing; but the winner was undoubtedly from Mrs No-Supper-For-You from Norwood in Lancashire… Miserable Fat Belgian Bastards.

    Source.

  110. 110.

    BGinCHI

    @NotMax: I hear you.

    I think the pressure to cram all that info and narrative into 100 minutes made such transitions really hard to fit in.

    As a fan of 3 hour films, I would have been fine with more. Many people, not to mention distributors and suits, think otherwise.

  112. 112.

    NotMax

    @Sab

    Supposedly Henry VII was so tight with a farthing that the cooks used his bed chamber to hang meat, as the king was skimpy when it came to keeping a fire there, making it one of the coldest rooms in the castle.

  115. 115.

    Sab

    @BGinCHI: My dad visited me, and was in awe to discover Bede’s tomb in Durham Cathedral.

    I was too when I got there. You get used to the unusual when you are in your twenties.

  122. 122.

    billcinsd

    @Brachiator: Hotspur and Hal were a bit like Achilles and Hector, two champions destined to confront one another.

     

    Which is all Shakespeare, as Hotspur was killed, possibly by an arrow through an open facemask, as he led the charge to kill Henry IV

  124. 124.

    Peter

    I liked it okay. I still haven’t seen a film that visually conveyed the essential advantage that the longbows gave the English. Not Olivier’s, not Branagh’s, not this one. One volley and then it’s all hacking in the mud.

    If Hacking-in-the-Mud isn’t an actual English town, then it definitely should be. In the Cotswolds, probably, or East Anglia.

  133. 133.

    BGinCHI

    @Peter: I forget what film showed longbow devastation really well. Volleys followed by lots of dead, arrows piercing shields and armor, etc. Hmm.

    Also, LOL.

    Hacking-in-the-mud-on-Wye

  142. 142.

    ziggy

    I watched it, but I am feeling very deficient in both Shakespeare and English history at this point. So I had very little deeper understanding of the events portrayed.

    BGinCHI–do you have some recommendations for English history that would get me up to speed on that period? I do like reading history and other non-fiction.

  143. 143.

    Sab

    @BGinCHI:

     

    @NotMax: And then his son spent the place into near bankruptcy.

    Andrew Lang, scottish historian and collector of old tales, who those of us who read this stuff remember from his various colored fairy  tale books.

    He wrote a many many volumed history of Scotland. ( Oddly enough, David Hume only wrote a history of England).)

    Lang said the Scots have no Constititional law, because their kings always lived within their means. Basically they only lived on clan funds, When they went nuts and agrressive, it was when the French kings were leaning on them, with money. Usually ended disastrously.

  150. 150.

    NotMax

    Back on topic, what did you think was the most egregious and/or the most unnecessary break with history?

  152. 152.

    BGinCHI

    @ziggy: Thumbnail sketches at #36 above.

    But you could also read Peter Saccio’s Shakespeare’s English Kings. It’s very readable and straightforward, covering the kingships (historically) of all the kings WS writes about.

    Very useful. Easy to find and cheap.

  153. 153.

    BGinCHI

    @NotMax: Instead of the bullshit with the brother becoming heir, I would have played Shrewsbury straight and had Hal fight Hotspur in single combat to win the war, against everyone’s better judgement, as of course they would expect Hotspur to kill him easily.

    Shakespeare suggests this by having Hal volunteer to do just that, but Henry IV says, “No, Hal, we can’t spare you…” (paraphrase), which really meant: “Are you out of your fucking mind?”

  154. 154.

    BGinCHI

    @NotMax: They probably could have skipped the whole Cambridge conspiracy, as I didn’t think it came through clearly and it wasn’t integral to the plot they were following.

  155. 155.

    Spinoza Is My Co-pilot

    Having just read Conn Iggulden’s excellent 4 book historical fiction series The Wars of the Roses, I looked forward to watching The King on Netflix.

    Frankly, I found the film to be just ok. I understood it to be based (more or less) on Shakespeare, so I wasn’t expecting historical accuracy to be its strong suit. Nonetheless, there were two important aspects of that inaccuracy that I just couldn’t get past:

    First, Chalamet was simply physically implausible in the role of a medieval warrior king. He looked about as much of a fearsome warrior (or, really, any sort of warrior) as the ridiculously-cast minimal-physique actor who played the badass fictional warrior Grey Worm on Game of Thrones. Neither were remotely believable as someone who could keep themselves alive for 5 minutes in battle with sword or spear, let alone be some superbly-capable champion fighter.

    Second, not only did the Dauphin never meet King Hal in single combat at Agincourt (which the film portrays), he was in fact notoriously nowhere near that field of battle (but, instead, died of dysentery some months later).

    Poor title role casting, bad plotting for the climactic scene.

  156. 156.

    BGinCHI

    @Spinoza Is My Co-pilot: It has elements of history and elements of Shakespeare’s plays. Both used very freely.

    I’d have been more disappointed if the casting was some warrior with 300 abs (the film), turning it into a different kind of film. I appreciated the casting against type, making Hal an unlikely (and mostly, unwilling) fighter who is barely able to stay alive.

  159. 159.

    Amir Khalid

    @Comrade Scrutinizer:

    Elizabeth II was, like, ten years old when her uncle abdicated, and was still not a legal adult by the end of WWII. She probably didn’t have a firsthand view of that show for its first decade or so. As for the post-WWII evolution of the British Empire into the Commonwealth of Nations, the ruling elite in Britain saw it coming whether they liked it or not (and of course many didn’t). Her Wikipedia entry notes: “By the time of her accession in 1952, her role as head of multiple independent states was already established.”

  160. 160.

    NotMax

    @BGinCHI

    Yeah, a typical bruiser would have been a yawn. The whole making the most of the hand he’s been dealt motif was more consistent with the whole, IMHO.

  161. 161.

    Barbara

    @ziggy: I became entranced with this period of English history by reading the historical fiction of Thomas Costain.  A biography of Eleanor of Aquitaine or Henry II is also a good place to start and then work your way forward.  Basically, around mid-14th century, Edward III had too many sons. It took more than 100 years after his death to situate the monarchy for the future, and then only by cutting down the remaining Plantagenets. I have often thought that Henry VIII was obsessed with sons because he feared civil strife that a weak ruler would generate, as had Richard II and Henry VI.

  162. 162.

    Amir Khalid

    I don’t know that much about English history, and the only Hotspur I really know anything about is Tottenham Hotspur.

  163. 163.

    Brachiator

    @Spinoza Is My Co-pilot:

    First, Chalamet was simply physically implausible in the role of a medieval warrior king. He looked about as much of a fearsome warrior.

    I don’t know. In some of his portraits, Henry looks more like a monk than a warrior.

    And to this extent, Chalamet nails it.

  165. 165.

    CaseyL

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    In the movie, there is a scene where an archbishop is boring everyone to death with a treatise on Salic law which forbids inheriting through a female line blah, blah, blah….

    I thought the Branagh version portrayed that part rather well, making it nearly comical with the archbishop going on and on, strewing pages around all the while.

  166. 166.

    NotMax

    @Amor Khalid

    Also too,

    The Hotspur was launched on 2 September 1933 as a [boys’] story paper […]. The first issue came with a black mask as a free gift and contained an offer for an electric shock machine:

    It’s a great prize, absolutely harmless and will give hours of fun. Just watch your pal’s face when you give him his first electric shock.

    Also too too.

    :)

  170. 170.

    Emma from FL

    @Amir Khalid: She did indeed. The family stayed in London through the Blitz. She joined the auxiliary as soon as she could. She’s probably the only Sovereign in history that can strip a jeep.

  173. 173.

    Amir Khalid

    @Emma from FL:

    I think I didn’t quite make myself clear. The show I was referring to was the business with Edward VIII and Wallis Warfield-Simpson. I am aware that she stayed with her family in Britain throughout WWII.

  176. 176.

    Spinoza Is My Co-pilot

    @BGinCHI: No requirement for Henry V to be played by someone who looks like a gladiator from the TV series Spartacus or whatever, I’m with you on that. And portraying the King as a (mostly) unwilling fighter? Fine, that’s actually clever and interesting. But “a fighter who is barely able to stay alive” as you put it? That’s not at all what the movie shows the King to be; just the opposite, in fact (as, notwithstanding any contemporaneous “monkish” portraits, the real Henry V almost certainly was). In The King he’s such a badass in armor with a sword that he handily beats (however reluctantly) even champion knights. Sorry, but Chalamet is just completely absurd (physically) as that guy, and the suspension of disbelief in that was a bridge too far for me.

  179. 179.

    BGinCHI

    @Spinoza Is My Co-pilot: Hotspur not any more physically intimidating, though.

    I guess it just didn’t matter to me that much as lots of thin, wiry dudes are capable of beating the shit out of bigger guys, as all the HK (and general Asian) action films have taught me.

  180. 180.

    NotMax

    @chris

    Easy when one doesn’t use the reply button (which doesn’t function for me due to my choice of browser configuration). Have never used it.

    As Fat Fingered Man would say: “My work here is dome.”

    ;)

  181. 181.

    ziggy

    @Barbara: I put Clash of Crowns by McCauliffe on hold–about Eleanor of Aquitane, William the Conqueror and Richard Lionheart. Also The Plantagenats by Dan Jones. That should do for a while.

    @BGinCHI (not sure how to do double replies)–the local library system doesn’t have Shakespeare’s English Kings, unfortunately, as that sounds like a good one.

  183. 183.

    Origuy

    I visited the site of the Battle of Towton, in Yorkshire. It was said to be the bloodiest battle ever fought on English soil. There’s nothing there but a small marker. 50,000 soldiers took part in it, one of the major battles of the Wars of the Roses.

    Is anyone in the SF Bay Area planning to go to Cinequest? They always have a lot of things to see, but I never get around to going to any of the showings. It runs March 3-15.

  185. 185.

    Elizabelle

    @BGinCHI:   Don’t have Netflix, but will watch this when I finally acquire it.

    Very happy that you are doing these Sunday culture threads.  We need them.

    @Mnemosyne:   What a great film series.  Would love to see that.

  186. 186.

    eddie blake

    thought it was pretty funny they put harfleur on a hill and not, you know, anywhere near the channel.

  189. 189.

    James E Powell

    @Omnes Omnibus: 

    Henry V historically did kill French prisoners. He was a bit of an asshole and a religious fanatic to boot. But he was successful in war so medieval history sees him as a good king.

    He also died before he had the opportunity to do the usual stupid and destructive things that kings often do when they’ve been on the throne for too long.

  190. 190.

    James E Powell

    I watched The King in anticipation of this discussion, but I’m now too late to add much that hasn’t already been said. I thought it was well done and didn’t really have a problem with the historical inaccuracies. I took the whole thing to be historical fiction like the The White Queen & The White Princess series on Starz.

    For a rendering of Shakespeare, I’d recommend The Hollow Crown series. Even though the plays Richard II through Richard III were not written to be performed in order nor are they a single continuous work, the series more or less flows that way. The performances are excellent.

  191. 191.

    James E Powell

    @BGinCHI:

    The recent BBC series The Hollow Crown did all 4 plays, with amazing casts, but they left me cold.

    I’m kind of surprised by this. Overall, both seasons exceeded my expectations. Can you elaborate?

  192. 192.

    oldster

    I watched the linked trailer, and had doubts about Chalamet. It looked to me like he was doing the same broody, expressionless schtick that he did for playing Teddie Lawrence from “Little Women”. I mean — just a lot of blank stares and barely furrowed brows to hint at deep feeling without actually earning it.

    I don’t know. I understand he’s a good looking kid, so maybe I’m missing the volcanic smoldering passion of it all. But to me he looks like somebody who is not very good at acting, and so he keeps his face neutral instead. Like the way that Kristen Stewart has spent her entire career doing the same dyspeptic pout. Or Hayden what’shisface of Star Wars infamy.

    Or maybe the trailer just didn’t show the good bits and I should shut up.

  193. 193.

    sherparick

    @Wag: An understandable mistake, but Richard III Plantagenet was killed by Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, who by conquest became Henry VII (Henry’s mother was a Beaufort, the bastard Plantagenet line from John of Gaunt, son of Edward III and uncle to Richard II, the last direct line Plantagenet King by primogeniture).  Henry VII then married Elizabeth of York, daughter of Richard’s eldest brother, Edward IV, and sister to the Edward’s sons who Richard allegedly murdered in the Tower, Edward V and his brother, also named Richard. (All families have problems, it appears).  There second son became Henry VIII, supposedly uniting warring sides of the family in uncontested legitimacy – although even before his break with Church, Henry VIII made it a policy to eliminate any potential Plantagenet claimants he could put his hands on. With all the Henrys, one following another in the 15th century, it is easy to make a mistake. Tough times to live through, but makes for lots of great plays, movies, and books.

  194. 194.

    sherparick

    @sherparick: Just add that Henry V, was John of Gaunt’s grandson, his father being Henry IV.  Henry married Catherine of House Valois, and their son Henry VI, was technically King of both France and England and if you watch the BBC/PBS series combining Shakespeare’s History plays, “The Hollow Crown,” you know he ends up King of neither.  After Henry died, Catherine began a love affair that perhaps ended in marriage with Owen Tudor, and Henry made his half brother by that relationship Duke of Richmond.  Catherine’s brother, Charles VII, is the famous “Dauphin” of Joan of Arc saga. So went the bloody end of the Middle Ages and the birth of the modern world in northwestern Europe.

  195. 195.

    BGinCHI

    @James E Powell: In case you check back.

    It’s probably my own desire for something more than just “Shakespeare done well” that bothers me about these kinds of productions. They’re faithful, and well-acted, with interesting sets & costumes and all that, but there’s not much in the way of interpretation, in thinking about the many things the plays are doing. Fundamentally, I’m a reader and not a theater person, and so I’m not the best audience for that kind of stuff. The Hollow Crown works terrifically for the classroom, as it gives students a clear sense of the narrative and so on.

  196. 196.

    BGinCHI

    @oldster: Whoa.

    As I’ve said above, I think Chalamet is excellent in this, whatever else he’s done or not.

    And Stewart? Have you seen her films with Olivier Assayas? She’s amazing in them. With her, it’s the film, not the actor.

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