Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

If America since Jan 2025 hasn’t broken your heart, you haven’t loved her enough.

Cancel the cowardly Times and Post and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.

At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

When I was faster i was always behind.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

Anne Laurie is a fucking hero in so many ways. ~ Betty Cracker

We are learning that “working class” means “white” for way too many people.

The words do not have to be perfect.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you do not.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

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Monday Morning Open Thread: Of All the Februaries During Which Nobody Wants An Extra Day…

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200Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    I’m just glad that in this polarized time in America, we at least have bipartisan consensus that Democrats suck.

  2. 2.

    Baud

    If Bernie does win the nomination, it’ll be some bit of irony that his path was made easier by two billionaires who decided that it was their responsibility to rescue us from ourselves.

  4. 4.

    Soprano2

    Yep, Bloomberg could have been spending his millions telling everyone how much Trump sucks rather than on a vanity run for president that sucked support away from real Democratic candidates.

    I heard India filled a 100,000-seat stadium for Trump. They sure know how to suck up to him

  5. 5.

    debbie

    Every other candidate should hit BS on that 60 Minutes interview and demand he answer questions about his past, his health, and how he’s going to pay for his programs. That interview was a disgrace.

  6. 6.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I think I’m gonna go back to bed and see if I can catch some of that sleep that kept running away from me all night.

  8. 8.

    Jinchi

    @debbie: … and how he’s going to pay for his programs.

    I have no problem with candidates going after Bernie, but could we stop engaging each other with Republican talking points? Trump has just set the deficit to exceed $1 trillion a year, thanks largely to his billionaire tax cut. Any Democrat can go a long way to paying for their programs by just, you know, cancelling that.

  10. 10.

    Chyron HR

    Bernie isn’t going to win a majority, so It’s time to start letting the Superdelegates know we don’t want Sanders as nominee.

    Yeah, sure, as soon as it looks like Sanders is winning, let’s validate every single one of his lies about Democrats and the 2016 primary.  That’s a great look for the party.

  16. 16.

    different-church-lady

    Do you know how fucking hard it is to read these tweets and not just constantly flap my yapper about how they’re all just whistling past the graveyard?

  18. 18.

    germy

    Harry Reid: Nevada Should Be First in the Nation, Time to Move to Primaries.

    “I firmly believe that Nevada, with our broad diversity that truly reflects the rest of the country, should not just be among the early states – we should be the first in the nation.”

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) February 24, 2020

  19. 19.

    TS (the original)

    Markets in Australia went down 2.5% today. Rest of the world is heading the same way. Trump will probably get a chance to celebrate the Dow at 25000 again shortly.  Deficits when a recession is due will not be kind to the economy.

  23. 23.

    different-church-lady

    @debbie:

    He was evasive and didn’t want to go into anything.

    This is different from every other moment of his life how?

  26. 26.

    JMG

    Sanders is ahead now. He might win. His chances are better than those of the other candidates — this morning. That’s not over. He might be in the driver’s seat next Wednesday morning and he might not be. To borrow from baseball, it’s a long election. Let’s try not to get too high or low in the top of the second inning.

  28. 28.

    germy

    There is something…deeply creepy about the Heartland Institute, a group of mostly geriatric men who publish climate denial propaganda, being so obsessed with Greta Thunberg they went out of their way to conscript a look-alike as their new mouthpiece. t.co/Y5OEDdh1Wr

    — Maddie Stone (@themadstone) February 24, 2020

    Heartland got its start shilling for the tobacco companies. They’ve moved on to “protecting” the environment.

  31. 31.

    rikyrah

    Been trying my DAMNEDEST to stay positive about this primary process, but the 60 Minutes interview tonight was troubling.If a major candidate cannot explain how a major change to Healthcare will be paid for, or how much it costs, that's a MAJOR problem.It's disqualifying.— BrooklynDad_Defiant! (@mmpadellan) February 24, 2020

  32. 32.

    Betty Cracker

    Whataboutism seems to work pretty well for Republicans, so maybe swing state congresscritters could say “Why does Trump exchange love letters with the horrifying dictator Kim Jong-un, and why is he so obsequious to Putin?”

  33. 33.

    rikyrah

    Nevada relook First, first alignment is what a primary vote would look like. 34 Bernie, 18 Biden (roughly). Second, as votes come in, Biden over 20; others falling further behind. Suggests a stronger second than first reported. Also, if you are Steyer or Klobuchar, you bombed.— Jennifer Rubin (@JRubinBlogger) February 24, 2020

  35. 35.

    senyordave

    Is Trump worse than we think? It is hard to imagine give what we know about him, especially since post-impeachment the “real” Donald Trump is emerging.

    In my working life before I retired I was a financial analyst. What I spent most of time on was “what if analysis” for corporate processes. I worked for Nielsen and much of my analysis was how to optimize the costs of producing TV and radio ratings. A very basic “what if” might take the form of “we currently pay every household that contains an 18-24 year old $5 per person for keeping a radio diary for a week, what would happen to total costs if we give them $10 per person”. An immediate reaction is that total costs go up because the diaries cost more. But that may not be true. We sent out diaries to households that agree by phone or mail to keep them, but a relatively small percentage actually followed through and returned them. Postage and materials cost a lot. If a higher percentage of those who agree to keep a diary and return it ACTUALLY do what they agreed to because of the increase from $5 to $10, total costs may decrease.
    As a financial analyst I found being cynical to be a useful trait. I learned over time that the ceiling is one hell of a lot higher than floor. If we had a start-up venture and we were given assumptions about certain metrics, there were limitations on how good they could be. There was always far more room on the downside than the upside. A new process may cost $500k if the metrics turn out as planned. If they are better it might cost only $400k, but no way would it be $150k. But if the metrics were much worse than anyone thought, it might be $2 million.
    How does this relate to Trump? We have evidence that Trump is a corrupt, racist, amoral pig. This is an objective view of Trump, not subjective, based on things that are factual. Now it is in the realm of possibility that some of what we don’t know about Trump isn’t really all that bad, but if that were the case he would still be horrible. My hypothesis is that what we don’t know about Trump and his people is much worse than we think or even can really believe possible. If you think he is twice as bad as what we know, it might be safer to assume he is ten times as bad. His ceiling for badness is almost unimaginable. I don’t know about others, but if you had told me ten years ago we would have a POTUS who does one tenth of what he has done I would have said that was crazy, it couldn’t happen. And it would be laughable to think a branch of the government would be complicit.
    I was trying to imagine all that the shit he and he and his people have done that we don’t know about. I’m guessing large amounts of theft, because Trump is a thief at heart.  I have assumed for a long time that he has betrayed allies numerous times, and that if he were to be re-elected most of our alliances will be severely weakened or even dissolved.
    Bottom line is that if something is bad but you don’t know the whole story, it is probably much worse than you think.

  37. 37.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Happy Independence Day to Estonia!

    Anniversary of the Estonian declaration of independence in 1918, after which they fought a war with Russia which was ended with the Treaty of Tartu in 1920.

  38. 38.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @JMG: The way Ds allocate delegates (proportionally) makes it hard to catch up if someone builds a lead. You can’t win by just winning. You have to win by a margin big enough to cover the already existing spread and then add some. So if something is going to change, it needs to start happening soon.

    The Obama bros say this is how Obama became the 2008 candidate. He took a small delegate lead in state after state, and HRC could never make up the difference.

  41. 41.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @rikyrah:

    Having participated in Iowa caucuses, I somewhat disagree with the folks who say first round voting is what a primary vote would look like. My experience was that going into that first round, you vote your heart even if you know your candidate isn’t likely to win. Second round is when you get serious. Maybe a primary is likely to be somewhere between those two?

  42. 42.

    mrmoshpotato

    @germy:

    Activist Ginni Thomas 

    Does it strike anyone else as beyond wrong to just refer to the wife of a Supreme Court Justice as an activist – especially a RWNJ like Ginni Thomas?

  43. 43.

    JMG

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: That was a two person race. Now we have six more or less viable candidates. So leading in the early stages does not equal winning majorities. As the candidates dwindle, and we could be down to three by the end of next week, then leading can equal majorities. It remains unclear if Sanders can translate his 25-35 percent of the votes into majorities when the field gets smaller. I have no opinion on whether he can or not, but it’s not a settled issue. Just the comments on this board make it clear he has a ways to go in creating a Democratic party consensus he can lead it.

  44. 44.

    SFAW

    @germy:

    Activist Ginni Thomas plans new conservative supergroup

    Not sure how she’s going to do it without Ginger Baker and Ric Grech.

  46. 46.

    JAFD

    For those who want a revolution…

    Sir John Eliot Gardiner leads the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique in Beethoven’s 8th and 9th symphonies, broadcast live from Carnegie Hall at 8 PM EST tonight, Monday, on WQXR.org
    Now all we need is to have them double-booked with The Orchestra of The Age of Enlightenment for a truly epochal Battle of the Bands

  47. 47.

    Chyron HR

    Do you think Bernie weeps at night, knowing that John Lewis might pass away before he can be beheaded at the convention coronation in July?

  49. 49.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Baud: Brave_writing isn’t a bot.  She co-hosts (or at least used to) the A Humorless Fem podcast with Elizabeth Rogers.

  51. 51.

    senyordave

    Why I loathe Bernie Sanders:

    1.  The most important reason, by far, is his kneecapping of Hillary Clinton in 2016.  He spent the whole primary season whining about how the existing rules were unfair, and then implying that Clinton cheated to win.  Clinton treated him with kid gloves the whole time.  When the Sanders camp used a data breach within a DNC database “inappropriately” (they basically stole data belonging to the Clinton campaign), they acted like they were the aggrieved party.  When Sanders finally accepted defeat he made it very clear that he was not backing her enthusiastically, if at all.  Studies showed that significant number of his supporters did not vote for Clinton; in fact, it was estimated that as many as 5% of his supporters voted for Trump.  IMO Sanders’ attitude was one of the major reasons Trump won.
    2. The attitude, exemplified by his tweet last week about the Democratic, that non-supporters of sanders who are Democrats, are the enemy.  What fucking nerve!
    3. For all his bluster about being an outsider, in some ways he is the worst type of professional politician.  Been in office forever and gets nothing done.
    4. In many ways he is becoming like Trump as a politician.  Promised the moon, and either has no plans to accomplish and pay for things, or has ridiculous assumptions like 3.5% economic growth over the long term.  In fairness, it is smart – the worst thing Warren did was give details on how to pay for things.  Americans like lofty promises, and actually do not want to bothered with details.  That is largely how Trump won.

    I’ll hold my nose and vote for him for sure (I’d crawl over broken glass to remove Trump), but I’ll be damned if a give a cent to the top of the ticket.  Besides, with Jane Sanders around I don’t trust what will happen to any money he has direct access to.  She is very lucky she wan’t prosecuted for the land deal at Burlington College.

    I do wonder whether their are Clinton supporters with enough resentment to vote third party.

  56. 56.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I just accidentally threw all the email in my inbox into the trash, including stuff that’s been sitting there for a year. I retrieved three things. The rest has gone to email heaven, I assume, since I don’t see it. It’s for the best.

  58. 58.

    Baud

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Ok. Thanks.

    My view is, if another candidate can gain a plurality or majority  of pleged delegates in the second round, fine.  If the Bernie people can’t live with that, than we’ll just have to let them go.

    If supers are decisive, everything is much more difficult.

  59. 59.

    Warblewarble

    Picture with John Lewis shows”Democrat Establishment” Sandernistas are out to destroy with Rethug help. The questions for Bernie write themselves ,and when the time is right captive media will hammer them again and again

  60. 60.

    satby

    @JAFD: now, that I would enjoy.

    Drove to the western suburbs of Chicago yesterday for a friend’s birthday, leaving in 10 minutes to drive to Chicago today to meet up with my son. Our beautiful day yesterday has faded into a cloudy, soon-to-rainy into snowy day and by Thursday it’s supposed to amount to between 3-6 inches. Glad all my long driving will be over by this afternoon when I get home.

  61. 61.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Betty Cracker:

    “Why does Trump exchange love letters with the horrifying dictator Kim Jong-un, and why is he so obsequious to Putin?” 

    Or, to put that another way, “Why is Trump Kim Jong-un’s and Putin’s bitch?  Why is Trump all ‘Mr. Gorbachev, build up this wall?'”

  62. 62.

    Baud

    @senyordave:

    Hillary will once again step up and do the right thing for the country if it comes to that.

    I don’t know what middle class white suburbanites in the Midwest will do, however, and that’s where the election will be decided if Bernie is the nominee.

  64. 64.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Hospice: “Loathe” is a pretty good description. Wouldn’t be the first politician I’ve voted for that I loathe, if it becomes necessary.

    Don’t be a Trump and demand adoration along with the vote.

  66. 66.

    Bruce K

    Y’know, I get the impression that the nominating process is a marathon, not a sprint, and we’re only partway into mile 2 of 26. It’s a little early to declare the process over now.

    That said, while Bernie Sanders isn’t my top choice for candidate, or even second or third, if he ends up as the nominee, he’ll get my vote in the general, because the alternative is the bastard offspring of the John Birch Society and the Ku Klux Klan, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before I ever consider voting for them.

  67. 67.

    different-church-lady

    @senyordave:

    I do wonder whether their are Clinton supporters with enough resentment to vote third party.

    I’d like to think we’re all a hell of a lot smarter than that. What I worry about more is minorities watching Sanders pander to the white “economically anxious” from the liberal side and deciding it’s not worth turning out.

  68. 68.

    mrmoshpotato

    @satby: ?As long as we endure this shitshow, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow?

    (checks forecast)

    Tuesday – 6.6 inches of snow?!?!

  70. 70.

    Baud

    @different-church-lady:

    His coalition so far seems to be sufficiently diverse. I don’t know if GE minority voters will feel the same way.  I personally think immigration will be his most difficult issue in the general because of the racial divide among working class voters.

  73. 73.

    Spanky

    I’m stretched on the couch with a cat on my lap, a cat on my shins, and two cats on/at my feet. Retirement is good  but, uhhhh, I really do need to get things going this AM.

     

    Or maybe not.

  76. 76.

    BC in Illinois

    @germy:

    Three points about “Activist Ginni Thomas plans new conservative supergroup to “protect President Trump”:

    1. The original article is from June 2019.

    2. “Activist” is an unusual title for the wife of Supreme Court Justice.

    3. This is the last sentence of the article:

    “We all have guns and concealed carry,” Thomas said, “to handle what’s coming.”

    And I thought that her husband, Clarence Thomas, was already a part of a conservative supergroup to protect President Trump.

     

    ETA: Credit goes to mrmoshpotato for comment #2. And credit to one of the comments to Thomas Edsall’s tweet for the final comment.

  84. 84.

    Azhrie139

    @Baud: Not sure I understand the question. However, I was more underlining the community vibe of this post and some commenters and equating it with folks behavior from around this time in 2008.

  85. 85.

    Shalimar

    @debbie: If Sanders is president, then Warren will still be a senator.  That is where financial details of big legislation are usually negotiated anyway, so we can start with her plans.

    Obamacare was not like what Obama proposed on healthcare during the campaign.  These things change when you actually have to govern.  Lack of detail isn’t in the top 10 of things that suck about Bernie.

  86. 86.

    Baud

    @Azhrie139:

    PUMAs are people who wouldn’t vote for Obama after he won the nomination.  Almost everyone here will vote for Bernie if he wins the nomination.  So analogizing us to PUMAs is slanderous.

  89. 89.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Azhrie139: I’ll say it again.

    Don’t be a Trump and demand adoration along with the vote.

    BTW, one of the marks against Sanders to a lot of people here is that some number of his supporters actually were PUMAs in 2016 and refused to vote for Clinton in the general, and he then hired those people to run his current campaign. Looks a lot like he approved of that behavior, yanno?

  90. 90.

    Chyron HR

    @mrmoshpotato:

    A cursory examination of Twitter shows that the Sanders campaign has pivoted directly into “settling grudges against the Democratic establishment (with guillotines)” mode.

  91. 91.

    Azhrie139

    @Baud: Let me be clear, this is not a complaint about anyone in this thread saying “it isn’t over yet”. Anyway, do you not really remember much from 2008? PUMA’s were also saying stuff like “loathe” but I will vote for the nominee pre-super Tuesday when things seemed less dire for Clinton. That quickly changed as the campaign went on and the “grievances” were racked up. Fine I’ll call it pre-PUMA behavior if it will make you happy.

  94. 94.

    Shalimar

    @Chyron HR: They do seem breathtakingly ignorant to the fact that the Dem “establishment” is all the people they will have to work with to pass legislation if he wins, don’t they?

  95. 95.

    Baud

    @Azhrie139:

    What makes PUMAs infamous is the post-nomination behavior. 2008 was a close contest until the very end.  Same with BermieBros.

    You can say what you want about us.  If you want to be David Brooks of the left, have at it.  I’ve been slandered by better.

  97. 97.

    Betty Cracker

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Yep, that’s one of my main concerns — too many incompetent, Stein-voting staff and surrogates. Candidates tend to govern the way they campaign, so it’s a legit worry.

    On the other hand, we do have regular commenters who are utterly deranged on the topic of Sanders, and they are rarely challenged for their loopy comments. And some anti-Sanders people on Twitter are quickly becoming what they allegedly despise — one is showcased in the original post, so there’s that.

    Le sigh. Can’t wait for this primary to be over.

  100. 100.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Cheryl Rofer: I have fond memories of Tartu, and the lovely little Oru Villa where I stayed, and the kids coming back to university, and the quick look-in at the old university observatory & its Frauenhofer Great Dorpat Refractor.

    What I saw of the rest of Estonia (other than the Tallinn tourist circuit) unsettled me – too many jobless Russians too poor to return to the Motherland after ’91. Of course that was in early September 2001, about a week before 9/11 (which I passed in Kaunas, Lithuania). One hopes things have improved for everyone.

  101. 101.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @rikyrah: And that’s been my problem with M4All since the 2015/2016 election season.  To implement a huge change to the healthcare delivery and payment system in the U.S is going to take massive changes to current systems and to how private insurance works.    We saw that with the implementation of the ACA.  Many people benefited from the ACA (before Trump and his cronies started taking an ax to it)   but it had problems, as any big change is going to have.   Bernie seems to have no idea, nor care, about all the pesky details.  And if we don’t at least hold the house and maybe flip some Senate seats, he may find it very hard to get anything major past Congress.

  102. 102.

    Mr. Mack

    I’ve been avoiding make any public declarations about who I support, largely because I wasn’t totally sure until very recently.  Just to get it out of the way, it’s Warren.  I like her combination of smarts and decency.

    I have been agonizing over the whole “broken glass” sentiment, and while I generally agree, with Sanders, I just can’t.  I’m not going to list all the reasons, they have been pointed to here (and other sites I frequent) and I believe we haven’t seen the worst of what’s to come by way of revelations.

    For me, I cannot trust him.  I do not like his proxies, and I do not like many if not most of his online supporters.  The Tea Party gave us Trump as a nominee.  I can’t stand to see my beloved Party dumbed down in a similar fashion.

    I’m in Tennessee so my vote will probably not matter.  I will still vote down-ticket, because people fought and died to make sure i could cast a vote.  I will honor that.

  104. 104.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Betty Cracker:

    we do have regular commenters who are utterly deranged on the topic of Sanders, and they are rarely challenged for their loopy comments.

    If we’re lucky, it’s because a lot of us have pied them for being boring. Can’t challenge what you don’t see.

    Hell, I feel utterly deranged on the subject of Sanders a lot of days. We no longer have the societal structures in place to keep his damage to a minimum. I chalk that up to PTSD from a toxic workplace; he reminds me a lot of a particularly horrid coworker.

  106. 106.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: True, especially online. I know some zealots offline too, but most people I encounter in real life mainly just want to get rid of Trump and get on with their lives. I am hoping that brand of sanity prevails, regardless of the outcome of the primary!

  107. 107.

    Baud

    @Elizabelle:

    I’ll vote for him over Trump.  I like to practice what I preach.  I’ll probably stop commenting on U.S. presidential politics, however. I don’t want to be dishonest, but I don’t want to be destructive.

  108. 108.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud:   Because what you want is a bunch of lifelong and committed Democrats who can no longer bear to watch politics, and are checking out.

    Yeah.  That’s a winning recipe in a country where the media is wired for Republicans (tax cuts for the megabucks owners!) and controversy.

    No thank you.

  110. 110.

    different-church-lady

    @Chris Johnson: Don’t pretend you’re new here. “Economicially axious” is quite well known to be media code talk for “people who are too polite for us to call racists.”

  112. 112.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud:   Not you personally.  I should have said “me” or “us.”

    I cannot just “oh well, I guess things will turn out all right.”  Luckily, we still have several weeks to support a better candidate.

  114. 114.

    Baud

    @Elizabelle:

    I feel you.  But young Dems really like Sanders, so if it comes to it, I’ll move on to other interests and get out of their way. It’s their future more than it is mine.

  115. 115.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mr. Mack: @Elizabelle:  It’s nowhere near over yet.  Why paint yourself into a rhetorical corner now?  Do you remember how everyone talked about Stein voters and those who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for HRC as effectively voting for Trump?  Can you explain exactly how it would be totally different if you fail to vote for the Democratic nominee this fall?  Have the stakes somehow gotten lower?

    I am voting for a Democrat in the primary, and I am voting for the Democratic nominee in November.

  117. 117.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @Elizabelle:

    And I think he is going to be the death of this blog, if he gets forced upon us.

    Sanders is certainly the reason I haven’t spent much time at LGM since 2016.

  122. 122.

    Elizabelle

    @Omnes Omnibus:   It just can’t be Sanders.  I cannot see our field of Democratic candidates come down to this.**

    Hot air is not going to get us into the White House.  That only works for Republicans.

    ** Although it hasn’t.  Yet.  Still more primaries to come, and EW was picking up steam in the later voting in Nevada.

    I really try to stay away from the media, because they’re just there for eyeballs and clicks, and they’re not particularly honest or insightful on what is actually happening.  WRT politics, anyway.

  123. 123.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @different-church-lady: What I worry about is a repeat of 2016  in swing states, where some majority-minority communities had what appear to me to be deliberate successful attempts to make voting harder ( fewer polling places, fewer working voting machines at polling places, more voter ID laws more strictly enforced. )

     
    Voter suppression

  124. 124.

    zhena gogolia

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    Since I’m being called “utterly deranged” by one of the front-pagers, I think I’m going to have to break my BJ addiction. I hope you all do well during Trump’s second-fourth terms.

  125. 125.

    Mr. Mack

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hi Omnes.  I get that it is not over.  If my choice is not the nominee, I will support any other candidate besides Mr. Sanders.  As I said, I will vote down ticket and I would rather take back the Senate and keep Trump than the other way around.  Trump was and is who he is, the Repub Party had their chance to do the right thing at several intersections, and did not.  Not enough of them anyway.

    For me, and of course YMMV, this is how I choose to support the Party.

  126. 126.

    different-church-lady

    @EmbraceYourInnerCrone: That’s a given, inarguably.  The logical qustion is why would minorities run that guantlet for a guy whose position seems to be “If I forgive the student loans of the white lower middle class that will solve systemic racism”?

  128. 128.

    Chris Johnson

    @different-church-lady: You’re mad. Economically anxious is a reality that cuts across a wider range of demographics than you could believe, and on the lower end of things economically DESPERATE is more accurate.

    Blaming everything on racism is propaganda talk and deeply untrustworthy. Obama won twice. Clinton won the popular vote. Your talk of racism serves propaganda purposes and I won’t stand for it.

  130. 130.

    zhena gogolia

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    So it’s “extreme” not to want the Democrats to nominate a Russian asset to run against another Russian asset. Got it. It was nice knowing you. Bye.

  131. 131.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @zhena gogolia:

    Bozhe moi! (Can’t bring myself to do Cyrillic.) Please take a spa day or timeout if you need it and come back. We need you!

    I’ve been feeling that way myself. This primary season and the Trump regime in general are driving us all nuts.

  132. 132.

    Chris Johnson

    @Omnes Omnibus: That, and it’s a known tactic for vote suppression consistent with being actually a Trump supporter.

    I’m not gonna be told who to like by a Trump supporter trying to put on a ‘caricature hopeless Dem’ facade. Seems like the actual Dems tend to have strong favorites and like to argue the merits of the worldviews they like. I’ve even seen some people who I think legitimately lean in a Bloombergy direction and genuinely think no people are poor, struggling, or economically screwed by the last 40 years or so, and those people argue for the folks they support, and more power to ’em (but not enough to win, please. But representation, sure)

    Some folks who post here seem to be solely dedicated to depressing turnout, and depressing/alarming Dems.

    It’s a living.

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Chris Johnson: Okay, dumbass. there are people who are economically anxious, and there are people who are “economically anxious.”  There is a difference.  The second group get scare quotes because they used their alleged economic anxiety as a cover for their racism.

  134. 134.

    Cacti

    @Chris Johnson: Blaming everything on racism is propaganda talk and deeply untrustworthy.

    And if we just start paying a $15/hour minimum wage, cops will stop shooting black people for no reason.

  135. 135.

    zhena gogolia

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    Nobody needs me. They think I’m “deranged,” “extreme,” and (from thread above this one) “not a Democrat.” And these accusations are coming not from random trolls but from frontpagers and regular commenters. So I think I had better join raven and kay in the ether.

  136. 136.

    different-church-lady

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for saving me the trouble.

    I mean, for fuck’s sake I’m constantly financially anxious, but that doesn’t make me dumb enough to not see the difference bewteen the wealth gap and systemic racism.

    P.S. You too, Cacti

  139. 139.

    Immanentize

    @Elizabelle:

    Just a factoid to consider — I find it hopeful given how early we are in the process:

    Sanders lost Nevada to Clinton in 2016 with a higher vote average than he won Nevada with this year.  I know there are more candidates, blah blah blah.  But it does not suggest a big Sanders revolution.  To that end, it doesn’t look like Nevada was up vote wise that much over 2016 — even with 75,000 banked early votes.  I still think there is a Sanders ceiling which he has not yet cracked anywhere.  We will see — Sanders got about 26% of the vote in Clinton’s blow out in South Carolina in 2016.  I predict! he will not get above that % in South Carolina next week.

  141. 141.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @Chris Johnson:

    You know, especially with your previous commenting history, maybe occasionally you should consider that you don’t always have a solid grasp on what you’re talking about and just shut the fuck up. The idea that zhena gogolia is a “Trump supporter trying to put on a ‘caricature hopeless Dem’ façade” is preposterous. Add to that your cluelessness about “economically anxious” as a dog whistle and you’re pretty much 0 for Monday.

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @zhena gogolia: On the scale of opinions about Democratic candidates, yes, I think that your position would probably be on the edges of the bell curve.  So calling it extreme is not unwarranted.  I am not sure what you want from us.  I don’t support Sanders in his quest for the nomination, and I think he would be one of the worst choices we, as a Party, could make.  That being said, I think he is a better choice than Trump, and, if that is choice I have come November, I will vote for him without hesitation.

    It that is too much for you, then I with you well.

  144. 144.

    zhena gogolia

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    He is the primary candidate supported by Putin. Trump is the GE candidate supported by Putin. And Americans are too stupid to see it. I am not going to vote for anyone who is promoted by Putin. I will vote down ticket.

  147. 147.

    gwangung

    @Chris Johnson: Blaming everything on racism is propaganda talk and deeply untrustworthy. Obama won twice. Clinton won the popular vote. Your talk of racism serves propaganda purposes and I won’t stand for it

    Mighty white of you.

  149. 149.

    Immanentize

    In happier news, I see that Sanders just nailed down the critical Marianne Williamson support.  Woooo!  (no “T”)

  154. 154.

    zhena gogolia

    @Cacti:

    ONE LAST COMMENT: I wanted to thank you for trying to defend me today. I note in the thread above that the blog host, whose blog I have been supporting both spiritually and financially for many years, has stepped in to attack you. This truly is the last straw for me. It is wrenching, because I have made good friends here. But I can’t deal with this on top of the coming fascist regime. I’ll have to find new friends.

  156. 156.

    Shalimar

    @zhena gogolia: I’m right there with you in thinking it is more likely than not that Sanders is a Russian asset.  On the bright side, if he really is, they won’t try to sabotage his campaign.  And even though he could be as bad as Trump on foreign policy, he will still be 1000 times better domestically.

  158. 158.

    Shalimar

    @different-church-lady: I would say useful idiot if not for Tad Devine.  Sanders hired Devine in 2015 despite him having been out of US election politics for over a decade at that point.  His recent experience had been working with Manafort for Ukrainian oligarchs with Russian intelligence ties.

  159. 159.

    Emma from FL

    So now saying that Sanders is  either a Russian asset or a Russian puppet is reason for ritual defenestration in this blog? When the bloody buggering hell did we turn into Republican-style cultists?

    Kay was one of the most valuable members of this group, just from the point of view of the information she provided; Raven was cantankerous but fun; and I disagree vehemently with Zehna in some issues but she was always clear about her reasoning and motivation. On the other hand, I keep seeing people whose names I barely recognize dictating to everyone in the passive-agressive mold of those who don’t want their own ideas examined closely.

    I am one of the least of this community; I lurk most of the time. But I have been taught a great many things by the dissenters. And now we’re actively chasing them out?

  160. 160.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @senyordave:

    Besides, with Jane Sanders around I don’t trust what will happen to any money he has direct access to.  She is very lucky she wan’t prosecuted for the land deal at Burlington College.

    Given Victoria Toensing’s son was responsible for trying to get Vermont to investigate Jane and Bernie Sanders on that issue, and he’s now working at DOJ, I’m assuming opening an FBI investigation into them in mid-July if he’s the nominee is ready and waiting in the Republican toolshed.

    Had Bernie gotten ahead of that issue–and many others— with the voters it might not have the kind of impact they want. But that’s his Achilles Heel: not being transparent, and always stubbornly putting his ego first.

    Judging by Twitter and other media posts out there, I’m thinking we’re going to see a whole lot of Never Trumper’s who are terrified of a Sander’s loss to Trump taking on his weaknesses and exposing him to criticism pre-nomination.

  162. 162.

    Cacti

    @Emma from FL: So now saying that Sanders is  either a Russian asset or a Russian puppet is reason for ritual defenestration in this blog? When the bloody buggering hell did we turn into Republican-style cultists?

    I predict the BJ cool kids club will look back at this moment with the same amount of pride as they now do about their prior support of Assange/Greenwald/Snowden.

  164. 164.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma from FL: Oddly, enough Kay and z_g left for completely opposite reasons.  Kay left because she thought that the blog had become reflexively anti-Sanders.  z_g obviously saw things the other way.

  166. 166.

    Geminid

    I was a lurker here long before I posted. I always appreciated the earnestness of expression and breadth of experience of the posters. It’s sometimes saddened me, though, to see the jackal-on-jackal snarling and back biting. Like a lot of problems, I blame much of this intolerance on Trump. He is making us all more or less crazy, and our anger towards him is boiling over onto each other. I hope people can step back and see that we are not each others’ enemy.

  167. 167.

    Emma

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yep. And guess what? I wish both of them were still around. For personal and political reasons I am nearly as anti-Sanders as Zhena and I needed people around me to point me at alternative views. Being wedded to one single thought in politics is about as useful as being monolingual; either way you miss a lot.

  169. 169.

    J R in WV

    @mrmoshpotato:

    Does it strike anyone else as beyond wrong to just refer to the wife of a Supreme Court Justice as an activist – especially a RWNJ like Ginni Thomas?

    Of course it is wrong. Clarence should have resigned as soon as his wife took a job in politics, failing that, he should have been/be impeached for being complicit in her right wing nut job… employment!

  170. 170.

    J R in WV

    @senyordave:

     

    Besides, with Jane Sanders around I don’t trust what will happen to any money he has direct access to. She is very lucky she wan’t prosecuted for the land deal at Burlington College.

    I expect that prosecution to resume immediately after the convention if Senator Sanders is the nominee. He’s a dammed fool for not expecting that, and actually I expect him to be indicted along with Jane. Good luck winning an election from a federal pen.

    What exactly is now holding Trump back from indicting and arresting leading Democratic politicians at will? AG Barr?? HAHAHAHheh…

     

    ETA:

    I despise everything about Senator Sanders. His attitude, his arrogance based upon his supposed “superiority” when in fact he is the prototype failed politician, never had a major idea enacted, ever. Unable to even get a cosponsor for anything more important than renaming a post office!!!

  171. 171.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma: The problem is that no one is wedded to a single view.  As far a pro-Sanders stuff goes, the vast majority of commenters do not support him in the primary but would, with varying degrees of reluctance, support him in the general if he is the nominee.

    And fwiw I think the blog is a better place with both Kay and z_g here.  That being said, no one chased them out, and they are both very intelligent adults who can make their own decisions.

  172. 172.

    SenyorDave

    @Ella in New Mexico: I’ve  read several articles on the subject and I believe Jane Sanders is lucky she wasn’t prosecuted.  She helped to run the college into the ground and walked away with a $200k golden parachute.

  173. 173.

    A Ghost To Most

    Everybody should just pie everyone else, and be done with it. It brought cliques.

    Now, can someone get the real Democrats to come together on one candidate, before BS runs away with it?

  174. 174.

    Betty Cracker

    @zhena gogolia: If you’re referring to my “utterly deranged” comment above — which did not specify any particular commenter, BTW — I was thinking of #47 and similar comments.

  175. 175.

    Emma

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think that we shall have to disagree on the operating values of “chase them out.”  I remember a time when commenters who stepped over the line towards other commenters were summarily given time outs. Maybe that happened then because their approach wasn’t passive-aggressive but direct verbal assault and their opinions near-universally disliked. Maybe it’s true, as others have pointed out, that there is a lot of free-floating rage in the political culture.

    Oh well. It ain’t my playground, I just visit here.

  176. 176.

    J R in WV

    I miss Raven, and Kay already. I will miss zhena gogolia a lot too, who provides an insight into the affairs of Ukraine and Russia and Georgia, etc we don’t otherwise have.

    I guess it was Hillary who spoke of an unnamed soviet  Russian tool running for president whereupon Tulsi Gabbard instantly proclaimed that Hillary was out of line for calling her a Russian tool – even tho Hillary never mentioned her name. Revealing, that.

    My point here is that no one called zhena gogolia anything, she just erupted — I believe all these folks have been affected by the looming political catastrophe that is ongoing in the nation. There appears to be no limit to what Trump and his minions will do already, let alone if he gets reelected.

    I’m hoping that most of the Republicans who failed their constitutional duty to expel Trump from the White House and who are up for reelection this fall all lose, continuing the tradition set when no one who voted to acquit Andrew Johnson back in the Reconstruction days ever won election to any office ever again. No one seemed willing to point that historical fact out to the Senators voting to acquit Trump.

    But I’m an old guy, with no kids to suffer from Global Climate Catastrophe… I’ll miss all my Baloon Juice friends, tho!

    GUYS, COME  BACK!

    I MISS YOU GUYS!!!!

  177. 177.

    texasdoc

    @Hospice: What, you think there aren’t people who loathe Bernie Sanders? I’m one of them, for exactly the same reasons Senyor Dave lists, with Sanders’ kneecapping of Hillary Clinton in 2016 at the top of the list. And, as a physician, I think the idea that a 78 year old who had a heart attack so recently (and undoubtedly didn’t complete cardiac rehab) should be in the running for the most stressful job in the world is just absurd.

  178. 178.

    dww44

    @J R in WV: Wow, I didn’t know that Raven and Kay had departed these pages.  When did that happen?  I want them to come back and for Zhenia Gogolia to return as well.  I actually mostly agree with her and one of my biggest reservations re BS is his openness to Russia?  Something about his pushback on that tarmac came across as very defensive and bit late.

    My sister, who lives in another nearby state, has turned into a real Bernie supporter and when I pushed back (cause I’m for almost anyone who isn’t named Bernie) this weekend she got very defensive, emotionally so.  In the interests of family comity I backed off and talked about non-political matters, like the standing water in my front yard. It gave both of us some space.

    That’s also why I appreciate all the front pagers who do the non-political posts and those who post about the real enemy.  Our primary season is just too too long.  I don’t think it serves any of us very well.

  179. 179.

    dww44

    @dww44: Also made the mistake of stepping into an LGM thread yesterday that was very much pro Bernie.  I got slammed quite viciously and told that I was dumb, ignorant, and knew nothing and this by folks who were mostly 2 to 3 decades younger than I.   I made the mistake of saying that Bernie could lose as bigly as McGovern in 72 and was told told that I knew nothing about how much the country had changed since 72. and that such a loss was mathematically impossible. When I departed there were close to 800 comments on it.

  180. 180.

    zhena gogolia

    @dww44:

    thanks for your kind words. I don’t know if I can live without BJ — clearly I keep checking the threads, so I guess I can’t. I’m going to just have to keep silent about the great Sanders, because this is turning into a Bernie blog. I don’t know where else to go. Jennifer Rubin’s twitter feed, maybe?

    I’ve been a Democrat since about 1965, by the way

    ETA: raven and kay left for entirely different reasons (Kay in fact thought the blog was too hard on Sanders), but it’s very sad nonetheless. Something has changed.

  182. 182.

    dww44

    @zhena gogolia: Well, don’t give up on BJ.  I’m optimistic that it will survive.  It is way better than LGM with regards to how commenters are treated. Again, we have to give all of us, including ourselves, more recovery space and we will make it through this.

  184. 184.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:   Pie people, at least for the time being.  It helps.

    There’s  a “toggle” command, so you can peek under the piecrust, if you like.

    But I think a few days away might be good for you and for all of us, at different times.  Too intense.  Still lots of time ahead to make a difference, so work for it, in whatever way you can.

  188. 188.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:   Some time away is really good.  Do something cool IRL.

    And work for what you believe in, politically.  Step back from the media environment.  There is another timescape out there.

  190. 190.

    sgrAstar

     

     

    @zhena gogolia: GBCW posts are a feature of pre-election jitters. I think Krugman has the right idea- Let’s just chill out. I’d like to add one more comment, to wit- not casting a vote for president is just sending a big Fuck You to every American who depends on the ideal of an equitable justice system. Roe? Brown? Obergefell? All on the table. Our personal views do not outweigh the community’s expectation and need for justice. Securing and defending the welfare of our community is the moral imperative of the Democratic Party. We can’t lose sight of that.

  191. 191.

    SFAW

    @zhena gogolia:

    ETA: raven and kay left for entirely different reasons (Kay in fact thought the blog was too hard on Sanders), but it’s very sad nonetheless. Something has changed.

    Kay left? I completely missed that. She’s been one of my favorite commenters. Damn!

  195. 195.

    Ruckus

    @zhena gogolia:

    What has changed is that our politics went from serious to extremely life threatening. In one day.

    There are few who aren’t affected directly or won’t be if this bullshit continues. We have gone from a somewhat dysfunctional political situation to major disaster and the effects are catastrophic or getting there. It has made some very nervous and some have lost their minds. Our politics have been a mess for about 4 decades and while they get better every so often the amount of damage that the republican party has done to this country can only be fixed so far, so fast by a democratic majority. And the last deep dive into republican bullshit has gone far, far deeper than it has in the past that it may not be recoverable. And people screaming  for an old acerbic politician with an extremely weak political record and unsuitable, at his age, health record, have not made this any better. The fact that so many unsuitable people have been running for president, I think because of the above and considering who is in the office now – the bar for eligibility has been not just lowered but buried Marianas Trench deep, and everyone is scared out of their socks.

    This does not make political discussions easier, better or comforting.

  197. 197.

    Julia

    I’m basically a lurker, but I read the blog religiously, and I miss Kay and Raven. I wish they would come back. Don’t go, Zhena! Love your comments. Can’t we all just get along?

  198. 198.

    zhena gogolia

    @lurker3000:

     

    @Julia:

    thank you, I’m in major withdrawal since I have nowhere else to go, so I think I’ll just try to stay silent about BS for the time being and hope for the best.

  199. 199.

    joel hanes

    Three times since I started reading this blog (around 2003, IIRC) I’ve walked away for a couple months.  (I found the Little Boots infestation almost unbearable.)

    Back when Joe from Lowell was commenting on LGM, it only took him one thread to drive me out of the LGM comments for almost a year, and I still can’t read some types of Loomis threads.

    My advice:  when it starts to make you crazy, stop doing it for a while.   Go outside.  Read a novel.  Clean out your closet.  Back up your devices.  Cook a tasty meal.  Call a friend you haven’t talked to yet this year.

    Then, if the day comes on which you’re no longer stressed at the idea of reading BJ comments, lurk a bit.

    My other advice, which is worth what you paid for it:  never respond at all to a comment that attacks you.

    OTOH, if the reply you get points out a defect of fact or reasoning that you feel is valid, thank them for helping you be less wrong.

    I hope that raven and kay will come back, eventually.

  200. 200.

    Archon

    @dww44:

    I don’t support Bernie AT ALL in the primaries, I think it’s extremely risky having him at the top of the ticket. Having said that there could be video of Sanders singing the Soviet national anthem at Lenin’s grave and he wouldn’t lose as badly as McGovern did in 72.

    For all of Nixon’s flaws, Trump PALES in comparison in the matter of politics.

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