We wanted to share a message from campaign manager @RogerLau about our path forward. https://t.co/f9bV1F4Ko1
— Team Warren (@TeamWarren) March 4, 2020
I have this consolation: Elizabeth Warren will still be my senior Senator, even if the rest of the country doesn’t appreciate what they’re missing. But I’m not giving up on her Presidential campaign until I hear it from her.
OK this is my one ride or die tweet about this:
Warren is the best candidate for President by far and it's really fucking depressing to live in a country that (for 2 elections in a row) is falling apart bc men are threatened by women who are smarter than them.
Have a nice day.
— Mikel Jollett (@Mikel_Jollett) March 4, 2020
My wife has spoken: “@ewarren should stay in, cause it’s possible that both of these dudes will have a heart attack during their next debate.”
— Elie Mystal (@ElieNYC) March 4, 2020
Also, she really has no great exit ramp right now. Quit and endorse Bernie, who called a her a liar and has no respect for her? Don't see a Biden endorsement either. Just quit? I don't see it. Warren's brand is she persists. So keep on doing so.
— Tom Watson (@tomwatson) March 5, 2020
I also think she's a terrific symbol for winning back the Senate and then leading it into battle. Staying on this stage longer helps with that.
— Tom Watson (@tomwatson) March 5, 2020
You can tell me and you can tell me and you can tell me — but let me tell you: There's not a lie I haven't heard about what a woman can and cannot do. At my age, every act of sexism and misogyny is an encore production. https://t.co/wj23KDTPkp
— Connie Schultz (@ConnieSchultz) March 5, 2020
… I try never to lead with my injuries, but it’s one thing to work hard to get over a disloyal love. A heart can heal, after all. It’s something quite different when the betrayal never comes to an end.
Once again, it seems, we will have to wait at least another four years to see a woman sworn in as president of the United States.
“It’s not because she’s a woman,” people tell me.
“It’s because she’s that woman,” people tell me.
“It’s because of Hillary’s loss that it feels like a woman could not win,” people tell me.
You can tell me and you can tell me and you can tell me — but let me tell you: There’s not a lie I haven’t heard about what a woman can and cannot do. At my age, every act of sexism and misogyny is an encore production…
If you had told me 20 years ago that we’d still be having this conversation about the limitations of women, the only thing I would have allowed you was a running start to get out of my way…
Personally, I'd like @ewarren to stay in at least through the March 15 debate. Both those guys could use some spark. But if, as is being reported, she drops out, I hope she doesn't endorse. Let's see where this race is going.
— Joan Walsh (@joanwalsh) March 5, 2020
And FWIW, Howard Dean thinks Warren should stick it out past the next race, noting the volatile race has been full of twists and turns and things could still change. “If I were Elizabeth, I don’t think I’d drop out until next week.”
— Liz Goodwin (@lizcgoodwin) March 5, 2020
A reminder that Elizabeth Warren already had an opportunity to endorse Bernie Sanders for president. In 2016. She endorsed Hillary Clinton.
— Kimberly Atkins (@KimberlyEAtkins) March 4, 2020
IOW the people futilely plugging away in DC jobs they once loved, but now feel stuck in, feel *seen* by her. They don't think there's any way to move forward without acknowledging then breaking the "norms" that no longer work. This is a really small group, but it's real/v. online
— Meredith Shiner (@meredithshiner) March 2, 2020
Baud
If I recall correctly, she was neutral until the primary was locked up.
I hope she says something today. Her supporters are understandably upset.
Steeplejack (phone)
A note about Connie Schultz’s piece—she later tweeted that because of a typo one paragraph should read:
MJS
There’s a clip of her (not sure where I saw it) saying that we absolutely need unity after the primary is over. She should stay in as long as she wants, and I’m hoping that if she can’t win any primaries, she can come in second to Biden in some, but if she drops out, I hope she endorses Biden. That is the only way to get anywhere close to “unity.” It will tick the Bernie supporters off, but they’re going to be ticked off, regardless.
Baud
@Steeplejack (phone):
The lesson of 2016 should have been how much of an international effort it took to keep a woman from winning.
But that would let Hillary off the hook, and there’s a segment of people (and a whole lot of the press) who simply can’t have that.
PsiFighter37
@MJS: I have trouble believing Warren finishes in second anywhere, TBH. Folks are going to treat this as a two-way race, and I would be surprised if she breaks 15% anywhere.
I too would like to see her get more support – and I think she should stick it out past the next debate – but if there is no impact from that, I think it’s going to be game over.
SFAW
My in-box gets the Boston Glob headline dump. In it, there was a link to an op-ed, wherein the (unnamed, for the moment, because the Glob is trying to get clicks) author talked about why college-educated women allegedly don’t like Warren.
Much to my non-amazement, it was penned by the Always Clueless Joan “I Never Met A Strong Woman I Couldn’t Hate On” Vennochi. It’s titled “Is it a woman thing, or a Warren thing?” [No, I won’t read Vennochi, nor give the Glob clicks, because fuck John Henry and his Herald-lite newspaper.]
As (I think) Shakespeare said: Christ, what an asshole.
OzarkHillbilly
About what?
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: The primary results so far, especially Tuesday.
SFAW
@Baud:
The media coverage reminds me of how the Politburo would airbrush out pictures of Party leaders who had fallen from grace. Except in this case, the media did it before she committed any transgression.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
True.
Also: good morning! ?
MJS
@PsiFighter37: I agree that it’s unlikely she comes in second anywhere – I’m just hoping it happens. One or two results of Sanders finishing third effectively ends his campaign. Not likely, I know, but I can dream.
Baud
@Steeplejack (phone): Good morning.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud:
I thought the lesson of 2016 was that she did win, just not in all the right places for the American oddity that is the electoral college.
debbie
@PsiFighter37:
That may be, but her presence at a debate offering concrete responses rather than empty flourishes and foolish slogans will show the two Bs that they need to get a lot better. She could act as the moderator in place of the actual moderators who only ask empty questions.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
If only she had gone to Wisconsin …
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
A thousand things had to happen for the election to come out like it did. The electoral college system was one of them.
Steeplejack (phone)
@SFAW:
LOL. Good one.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: OK, I thought you were referring to something to do with the last 2 surviving Bs.
At this point I am resigned to it, not sure which stage of grief that is.
Ohio Mom
I stop by Connie Schultz’s twitter every morning. For those who might not know, she’s married to Sherrod Brown, so she hasn’t made an endorsement, but it’s been obvious for a while she’s pulling for Warren.
I said this in s thread yesterday: I feel like a beloved family member is in the hospital and it doesn’t look good. I am waiting helplessly, waiting for the call that they passed.
SFAW
@MJS:
You ain’t the only one.
I wish he weren’t (almost) as much of a narcissist as the Traitor-in-Chief. Of course, that would imply some self-awareness on his part.
Anya
@Baud: The press worked extra hard to create the narrative she was not a viable candidate. On primary night, they put up a graphic for only Biden and Bernie.
I kept yelling at my screen: “SHE IS STILL IN THE RACE YOU FUCKERS”
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Me too. Well before Super Tuesday, I didn’t see a path for her. Still, Tuesday was worse for her than I would have imagined, and it had to have been devastating to her supports who had held out hope.
Warren’s a leader and a team player, so I’m sure she’ll say something about her plans soon. She knows letting sadness and grievance fester is not good for our side.
gene108
This election isn’t about Hope and Change. It’s about the all consuming fear of a Trump second term.
A lot of candidates, with potential, didn’t get the support they needed because of this.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: If only I had gone to WI…
@Baud: Yep, it was a true black swan event. Still, I don’t think it’s wrong to point out she got 3 million more votes than trump in that election, especially to people who say a woman can’t win. Misogyny is not dead, but Hillary proved a woman most certainly can win.
Sab
I am scheduled to canvass for Warren on Sunday, and unless I hear otherwise from the campaign I will turn up and do 2 shifts.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
We’re approaching the stage of acceptance: We are a nation of assholes.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
debbie
Last night, on the little bit of TV I watched, there were two ads for Warren and one for Bloomberg. Sigh.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
Steeplejack (phone)
I think Elizabeth Warren should stay in the campaign at least until we get a better idea of the shape of the COVID-19 crisis. Maybe I’m just in a dark mood, but part of accepting the probable scope of the thing is to acknowledge that old male politicians (some not in the best of health) who travel a lot and are out in public a lot are prime candidates to get the disease.
My personal nightmare scenario is that Biden succumbs to the disease and Sanders becomes the presumptive nominee because he’s the last man standing (so to speak).
Silver lining: A certain Republican candidate who doesn’t think the “corona flu” is that big a deal is also at high risk. Just sayin’
ETA: And of course Warren could get the disease as well. I’m just saying that having options is a good thing.
debbie
Will Gaetz show up wearing his gas mask today or will he scamper off to his next giggly adventure?
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I’m back on the fence of where to put my vote. I desperately want to vote for her, but if the MO polls are close between Bernie and Biden, I’ll have to vote Biden I guess.
Baud
@debbie:
I think the current White House occupant already proved that we have a surfeit of assholes in this country.
Steeplejack (phone)
@rikyrah:
Good morning. ?
rikyrah
Betty Cracker
@OzarkHillbilly: Is it likely to be close in MO? I would have guessed MO is Biden country by a long shot!
Baud
This will probably never happen, but it would be nice at some point to have an honest and critical look at the current state of liberal/progressive culture and attitudes. It’s easy to hate on Bernie, but like Trump, he is a symptom of something deeper. It’s relevant here because Warren put herself squarely in that lane. That worked for a lot of us here on BJ, but obviously it didn’t work overall.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’m working on a post on that topic! I keep straying off on tangents, though. It might not be ready until June. :)
Baud
@rikyrah: She looks great.
Biden’s strength is that he has a high EQ. It’s not intellectually satisfying, but it’s a real thing.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Steeplejack (phone):
To lighten the mood, must-see video at the link:
Baud
@Betty Cracker: Oh, that’s excellent. You’ll do a great job. Can’t wait to see the final product. I can understand how that’s a topic that would be hard to condense into a blog post.
Baud
@Steeplejack (phone): It’s hard not to touch your face. I’ve been trying.
rikyrah
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
As one commenter said: dog cones for everybody!
Betty
I don’t get to vote until next month, and I want to vote for Warren. Those two old guys are so vulnerable on multiple levels.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I’m optimistic: I think the progressive movement will thrive once Sanders is no longer the face of it, which he has been, for better or worse (worse!), for quite some time.
Xentik
I hope sincerely she stays in until the end. I donated again to hopefully get that across to her. At the very least we need her in the next debate standing next to the two finalist old white dudes.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: I hope so, but I’m not so confident. Partly that’s because the reason I’m at BJ instead of still at Kos was how that community responded “from the left” to Obama’s first two years. That was well before Bernie entered the national consciousness.
rikyrah
Voter Suppression ???
johnnybuck
@Baud: I think if the the economy overall was worse, circa 1980 or 2008, and the current occupant of the office of President wasn’t an existential threat to democracy itself that the happy warrior progressive message of Elizabeth Warren would resonate more.
I don’t oppose many of the issues Bernie Sanders espouses, just the messenger. “i would gladly vote for a socialist… just not him.” I’m voting for Elizabeth warren today because I live in GA and Joe will have no trouble with Bernie here.
AnonPhenom
I wish no harm to befall anybody.
But this country now has 3 men just shy of 80 years old running for president during a pandemic where the fatality rate for men of that age is close to 15 percent.
Hell yes, Warren should stay in.
SFAW
@Baud:
I get that same comment from a lot of people, about my own face. But they always seem to be speaking some foreign language when they say it, because they talk about my “Backpfeifengesicht.” If only they would tell me what that word means …
Xentik
@Baud: There will always be a perpetually disappointed, borderline-toxic part of the left, and they will always be super vocal.
The thing to look at isn’t them, it’s the population as a whole. During Obama’s term we were fighting for a bare minimum of healthcare and the far left was screaming “No public option? Kill the bill!”. Now here we are and the democrats as a whole have come up with some truly great public option plans that make huge improvements and are widely accepted in the party. The far left, on the other hand, has decided that anything less than M4A is a sign democrats are corrupt.
Unlike the far left, the real progressives are doing what they’ve always done: make progress wherever, whenever and however they can.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Words just fail me fail me. What is the difference between Sanders and Trump? All I see is out of touch, conspiracy believing, narcissistic, racist, sexist scold who should be sitting in his luxury mansion and yelling at the kids to get off his gate. Come on you Berni Supporters, tell me that Bernie just isn’t a left wing version of Trump.
I think Warren should stay in the damn race just to show the public that there is an actual viable progressive agenda and not pack of the slogans and wishful thinking of likes of Sanders.
E
@Baud: 53% of white women voted for Trump. Men didn’t force them to do that.
OzarkHillbilly
@Betty Cracker: I really don’t know. Anecdotally I know a lot of Bernie folks across all ages. I went to a county DEM meeting a month or so ago. It was a real mixed group but I think half were at least favorably disposed to Bernie and I saw no one definitely on team Biden. Same for among my friends.
I think my “circle” is an outlier. That’s why I need to look at the polls.
Cameron
@Anya: I think it was NBC that I was watching on Tuesday where they did have her up, but misspelled her name. AFAIK, “Warrren” is only a valid spelling in Pirate Pidgin.
Chyron HR
@E:
“BUT THE FIFTEEE THREEEE PERCENT!!!!”
So, what, if it had been 49% everything would be cool?
OzarkHillbilly
@Betty Cracker: Sooner than that I hope. I hope. I hope.
charluckles
My MSN aggregator includes a prominent article about Carter Page and the FISA court that includes this sentence: “It was Steele’s unsubstantiated and largely debunked dossier that played a key role in the FBI’s warrants to surveil Page…”
That link goes straight to FOX News lala-land.
WTF
Baud
@Xentik:
That’s all great and true until you get down to election results this year.
The other thing is, it’s no good talking about most progressives if the majority of progressives can’t stand up to the “disappointed, borderline-toxic part of the left.” Think about how we feel when people talk about how there are reasonable Republicans out there. We demand that they prove it by actually standing up to Trump.
If you’re silent in the face of the loudest voices who purport to speak for you, those voices become your voice.
I think the problem is we are deathly afraid of splintering progressives because we understand the importance of unity. But that leaves us vulnerable to being taken advantage of by people who threaten to walk if we don’t “bend a knee,” to use an apt phrase.
zzyzx
@Baud: yeah that’s where I am. He’s an old school rolodex politician who can empathize with people and can get things done that way. Seems alien to our times but it seems to still work.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Chyron HR: Hilary would have gotten elected. Hilary would own the woman vote was the bases of her strategy.
Baud
@E:
Sure. The racial divide in this country is the top reason things are the way they are.
Lapassionara
@Baud: This. The 2008 election was between Obama and McCain, not between Obama and some perfect leftist transformative energizer bunny. But the left acted as if the country had picked the wrong candidate to be president, when we very clearly chose the better of the two candidates. I don’t mind constructive criticism, but some people seemed to be unable to appreciate the gains that were made because those gains were not precisely what they would have chosen.
E
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: What an ignorant statement to make. First of all, Sanders is not a wannabe authoritarian and I do believe he happens to believe in the rule of law. Also, to take the man that saw a sea of white supremacists chanting Jews will not replace us and refer to them as very fine people, and equate that man as no different to the first ever Jew who has a realistic chance to win the Presidency and who also had a good chunk of his family wiped out in the Holocaust is disgusting. Maybe you should look in the mirror and ask how am I really any different than Trump?
Sab
Warren has a high IQ but more importantly a high EQ. I’m trusting her on this and just waiting.
At least she is stil in the Senate.
Baud
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
I think she thought she would do better with white women than she did. I don’t think she thought it was the basis for her strategy.
Matt McIrvin
@Xentik:
They’ve decided M4A with a concrete phase-in plan is a sign Democrats are corrupt.
Frankensteinbeck
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
The difference is that Sanders, whatever the personality motives, mostly wants to help regular people. Trump actively wants to hurt everyone who is not his supporter, kill everyone brown, and merely is passively happy to watch his supporters suffer. Both Trump and Sanders are narcissistic, incompetent assholes. Only Trump is a Nazi.
Lapassionara
@Xentik: You said it better than I did.
Cameron
@Betty Cracker: He’s the face of the ‘progressive’ movement because he hijacked it. I think he really believes that ‘revolution’ horseshit – only problem is, revolutions are usually led by a cadre or vanguard party or some shit, and assume that followers are foot soldiers, not fellow citizens (no matter what flowery rhetoric they put up to the contrary). Maybe I’m just sour because I’m a former lefty (DSA, etc.), now a pretty conservative Democrat. I voted for Warren; I don’t regret it; and I hope she stays in as long as she wants.
Chyron HR
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’m pretty sure Trump claims he’s here to help regular people, too.
artem1s
Warren has a tough choice to make. Unfortunately the politics of that choice are more important than the reality of it. I for one hope she sticks around for at least the next debate if only to finish the job she started at the last debate. Kill off the remaining candidate that would mean a sure loss in the general. Help the party avoid a brokered convention. Help the party take back the Senate and keep the House. Keep Biden from having to deal the death blow to Sanders. And make sure Biden doesn’t have to make any stupid concessions to someone who wants to destroy the party he doesn’t belong to. Warren’s going to get blamed for Bernie’s ruined campaign anyway. And her votes are more valuable to Biden than Bernie’s are. Biden’s people were able to orchestrate that magnificent passing of the baton right before Super Tuesday. I can’t believe they aren’t already talking to Warren. Pete declared himself against the billionaires who want to buy the party nomination and the ones who want to tear it down. Warren needs to also declare and send a strong signal about what she will deal for. Banking reform? Tax reform? Health care reform? all of the above. I DO NOT believe for one minute that she won’t lead the charge no matter what her title is. Bernie won’t do anything but sulk no matter what concessions he gets. If Biden is the real deal and is serious about rebuilding the trust in the government, his first move is to offer that job to Warren in whatever fashion she wants to do it. Commerce Sec? Treasury? Fed Chair? whatever. Make it happen Joe. Let her take out Sanders in the next debate and then offer her her pick of cabinet position/s or whatever she wants.
I love Liz and I will probably vote for her in the primary no matter what. But I never believed she was really interested in being a figurehead. She doesn’t want to be bothered by the trappings of the WH. I think she will decide it’s time to get back to work in the Senate and make sure they are ready to undo the worst damage of this maladministration.
gvg
We don’t want to divide the field and end up with a flawed candidate like Bernie nor do we want festering resentments the republicans and Russians can exploit after the election, however…it really is concerning that all the top candidates are old men in a pandemic which targets their demographic. somehow I want her to thread the needle to stay relevant if something happens to joe. I’d actually prefer she had the 2nd most delegates and Bernie couldn’t benefit from Joe getting sick. I wanted more votes for her, so that if it came down to it, we could argue that people would vote for her absent Biden. There were polls showing she was 2nd choice for many, but not proof in votes. Debate after polls didn’t net her votes.
I have accepted she won’t be the nominee under normal progression, I am just worrying it’s not going to be normal. I don’t even know how to add in Russian interference on top of Corona Virus.
SenyorDave
It is obvious that misogyny is a huge factor in Warren’s inability to get traction. Misogyny on the art of the media and the electorate. But it should be remembered that at one time she was polling high, I believe about 30%.
IMO the turning point was M4A and the elimination of private insurance. In one of the debates she answered yes to both. At that point she moved from being the progressive with sensible solutions to Bernie-lite in the eyes of many people. I think she lost some centrist support and some of her support might have switched to Bernie, thinking why go with an imitation when I can have the real thing.
Bernie starts off with 20% n matter what, so for her to get to 30% of the total was impressive, because that is almost 40% of the remainder. But the M4A and private insurance elimination was a major mistake, and I think she knew it.
I also think that Pete becoming viable hurt her a lot. He drew from some of the same pool (I think some people perceived him as more progressive than he really is).
Warren has always been my #1 choice, and I’ll still vote for her if able (I’m in MD, which is very late), but I still think she made a terrible choice that night, because staking out a fairly radical Bernie position (elimination of private insurance is a BFD) could only cost her.
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
@Chyron HR:
My somewhat more nuanced take is that Sanders doesn’t care about people directly, but he cares deeply about his ideology, which happens to be an ideology that helps people if it could be implemented effectively.
OzarkHillbilly
One of these is not like the other. I suspect that like me, you are a pragmatic Democrat. ;-)
Baud
@SenyorDave:
I noticed she stopped using the term “Medicare For All” when talking about health care in the debates and publicly.
Xentik
@Baud: Agreed, but how?
The media generally loves amplifying the voices screaming the loudest. There have been plenty of people speaking out against the toxic side of the Bernistas, but does that get any coverage?
Look how hard the media worked to exclude and attack Warren. She absolutely was the voice of reasoned, rational progressives, and they went out of their way to attack her for doing the homework while letting Bernie skate by with a heart attack and a bunch of empty slogans and promises that basically relied on green-lantern-style wish fulfillment.
I’m at a loss for how we’re supposed to deal with that beyond just persisting.
OzarkHillbilly
@Chyron HR: That’s why his tax breaks slew to the rich and corporations. That’s why he wants to end healthcare for regular folks. That’s why the DJIA is the real victim of the corona virus.
schrodingers_cat
@gene108: Agreed.
joel hanes
@Anya:
The press worked extra hard to create the narrative she was not a viable candidate.
The media (can’t call talking heads “press” or “journalists” when they’re neither) began to disappear Warren from their narrative well before Iowa.
Chyron HR
@Baud:
“And when you think about it, well why not do
“One or two of the things we promised to?”
Frankensteinbeck
@Chyron HR:
We know the policies the two support, and we always did. I will take two of Sanders’s worst issues: Sanders might well have made the immigration process more difficult. He would not have instituted a Muslim ban, separated families, or run concentration camps. He might have damaged the ACA in fits of petulance. He would not be telling the DoJ to support anti-ACA lawsuits, or telling states to come and get it with work requirement waivers. In almost all other areas, the policy difference between Sanders and Trump is even more stark.
Baud
@Xentik:
I don’t have all the answers. Persisting is a good first step. I suppose one thing I’ve done is to stop participating in toxic cultures. As a liberal, I am enticed by some of the snarky comments and hot takes on Twitter and even by some of Bernie’s rhetoric. But it can be like a drug if you drown in it, not to different to what Fox News has been able to do on the right.
And if you find out a person or an outlet is consistently engaging in misleading spin or lies, stop following them. I’ve cut out a lot of progressive voices because they’ve lost their credibility with me.
Personally, I’ve also started to put less weight on ideology and speechifying and more on the practical aspects of leadership and governance.
But all that is just how I’ve handled things. YMMV.
Cameron
@OzarkHillbilly: I am actually a very conservative Dem in that I’m much more interested in state-level solutions to problems than federal-level ones (which in FL I suspect makes me pretty conservative). But to me she is so clearly the runaway best presidential material (including all those no longer in the race) that I couldn’t vote for anybody else in the primary. So….a long-winded way of saying I’m a pragmatic Democrat? I guess…
Chyron HR
@OzarkHillbilly:
Yes, Trump is a con artist, just like a certain other presidential candidate I could name. You have correctly interpreted the meaning of my comment.
Betty Cracker
@Lapassionara: In 2008, Obama was sort of a blank slate as a candidate, if you didn’t bother to read the book he wrote that described his governing philosophy in detail, which most voters didn’t. Campaign rhetoric is aspirational, and I think a lot of progressives projected their own views onto Obama.
I call myself a progressive too, but I did read Obama’s book, so I wasn’t surprised or disappointed by how he governed. I was surprised by how complete and ruthless Republican intransigence was, as was Obama, I think.
Don Beal
Republican lite Biden will lose to Trump. I will vote for him if he wins the majority of delegates. I love Elizabeth Warren and I hope she agrees to run as Sanders VP/Treasury Secretary. I could see her being President after Sanders leaves with one term because of age and health concerns.
Biden means no climate action. Biden means Obama care and the morally corrupt notion of health care as a business. Biden means the billionaires continue to run the country into the ground (just look at the stock market yesterday). Biden means a sustained perception that voting is a choice between “tweedle Dee and tweedle dum”. In short he is the corporate arm of the Democratic Party. No problem in your world as I have noticed here, but I strongly disagree.
I would bet big money that Elizabeth Warren has more integrity than to cast her lot with Biden.
joel hanes
@Betty Cracker:
I think the progressive movement will thrive once Sanders is no longer the face of it
This.
If BJ had upvotes …
JMG
Warren will wait until the race is pretty well decided and then endorse Biden, just like she did in 2016 with Clinton. That shouldn’t be so hard to understand. Were I her, I’d stay in the race through next week to see how Bloomberg’s votes shake out, with the understanding they probably won’t shake out to her.
Geminid
I voted for Warren Tuesday. I was disappointed Wednesday in her poor showing, but I was happy because I had been anxious about a potential Sanders nomination and it now seemed we had dodged an astroid. But for my friend Joan, the lack of support for Warren was a punch in the gut. She is a 68 year old lesbian, and has borne the brunt of misogyny all her life, and seen it frustrate the aspirations of her sisters. I can only guess how that feels.
joel hanes
@SenyorDave:
IMO the turning point was M4A and the elimination of private insurance. In one of the debates she answered yes to both.
This matches my perceptions.
Also, fsck the overweening vanity of Chuck Todd and his “raise your hand” question.
Baud
Here are the rest of the March primaries
The next debate is on March 15.
ETA: Corrected with better information.
Cameron
@Don Beal: Bless your heart. (Ms. Cracker, did I get the Southern nuance right? I’m a transplanted Pennsylvanian.)
OzarkHillbilly
@Chyron HR: The question was, “In what ways are they different?” You pick out 2 personality traits they share and then say “See? They’re exactly alike!” while ignoring all the ways they are different.
As to what your meaning is, I couldn’t give a rat’s ass because it is meaningless.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: You hit the nail on the head. There is a thin dividing line between progressivism and populism.
The deference to the BS wing of the party did not sit well with those in the cross-hairs of the said populists.
Betty Cracker
Now for some REALLY important political news:
I know, polls schmolls, but this is encouraging, comrades!
Frankensteinbeck
@Cameron:
As a Southerner born and bred in the briar patch (South Carolina) I would also have accepted “Christ, what an asshole.”
Baud
@Betty Cracker: That’s excellent news.
joel hanes
@Don Beal:
Consider the idea that Biden is not particularly ideological, and tends to reflect the consensus within his party. The Democratic Party of today is considerably to the left of the Democratic Party of just six years ago, and I think that Biden will surprise you on e.g. climate change. Warren will be one of the voices helping him see the necessity of that, just as she called out Geithner.
If we take the Senate, Congress will set the tone, and Biden will go along. That’s not as good an outcome as Warren setting the tone and Congress trying and sometimes failing to enact her agenda. It is a quarter loaf, but we’re starving here.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Betty Cracker:
Excellent! And maybe Steve Bullock in Montana will help too.
Soprano2
Same situation for me. I want to vote for Warren more than anything, but I also don’t want Sanders to win MO.
Eric S.
@OzarkHillbilly: The one before chocolate icecream.
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes: Biden also took the lead on same sex marriage, so he’s not a complete troglodyte.
Betty Cracker
@Don Beal: I am so not a fan of Biden and am disappointed that it’s coming down to him, but I think you’re wrong about the inevitable outcome. Yes, Biden is a flawed candidate with tons of baggage, but my god, look at the other guy! That wasn’t enough last time, but this time, the orange carbuncle is a president with a record. An awful record.
So, I think we’ll win the election, and if we have to do that with Biden, our job as progressives becomes to maximize our influence in the coalition that will be necessary to defeat Trump. My guess is Warren is trying to figure out the best way to do that.
Billcoop4
I was in conversation with two women of my acquaintance, mother and daughter, 84 and 55. They both didn’t like Warren because she was “too angry”.
I had to mansplain to them. Not really.
I honestly don’t get the description of “angry”. She’s firm, forceful, forthright, f…well, I’m informed “feisty” is sexist, but it sure sounds like a compliment to me … And she’s clearly enjoying the campaign despite not having spent a lifetime doing it.
I hope she will persist until she decides that persisting will do more harm than good.
(I have just made a separate one-time contribution to the Warren campaign; I’ve been on monthly since June ’19.)
Chyron HR
@OzarkHillbilly:
Okay, fine. Bernie’s going to give us the biggest most beautiful health care anyone’s ever had, believe me, and is therefore nothing like Trump.
Another Scott
@MJS: I see no reason for her to endorse Bernie – especially not anytime soon. She’ll endorse the person who has the most delegates, or the person who has the unassailable path to the most delegates – and it won’t be Bernie.
She’ll thank Bernie for his passion in
yelling and finger waggingadvocating for big ideas that they all share, but she knows that unity among all Democrats and a demonstrated ability to get things done is the path forward. And she’ll probably do so in the summer.Cheers,
Scott.
eclare
@Betty Cracker: Yay! Good news indeed.
joel hanes
@O. Felix Culpa:
Some of Biden’s bad rep among progressives, the “Senator from MBNA” thing, arises from his support in the Senate of Delaware’s corporation-centered politics. It’s much the same thing as Klobuchar’s support of the mining industry (bet you didn’t know about that — she’s from Minnesota’s iron range), or a Wisconsin Senator’s unwavering support for the dairy industry, or an Iowa Senator’s support for soybean exports.
I have some hope that Biden’s ambit is now centered on the national interest, rather than the interests of the state of Delaware.
JMG
There is absolutely no way for Warren to win any of the March 10 primaries or even to finish second in one unless somehow the Sanders voters see her as a means of stopping Biden, and Bernie’s voters aren’t exactly tactical voters. I say that as a Warren supporter. Regretfully, my fellow Democrats have not made their best choice. They do seem to have made one, however.
Anya
@joel hanes: I stand to be corrected. Yes, the MSM
Immanentize
Under what theory, at this point, would it be wise for Warren to endorse Sanders?
The only person that would benefit would be Sanders and only a little. Warren wouldn’t at all. Sanders is now going to lose the nomination to Biden (barring any really crazy twists). Sanders people have gone out of their way to alienate Warren supporters and even if Warren endorsed Sanders, I doubt it would bring him many votes anywhere. Don’t Sanders supporters constantly point out how poorly she is doing with voters?
But I guarantee you — Warren will be one of the scapegoats for Sanders’ crushing defeat (again). Regardless if she endorses him or not.
Immanentize
@Baud: That schedule suggests if Warren stays in until the next debate, she will stay in until the next big primaries two days later.
Vhh
I think Elizabeth Warren would be a far better Pres than Bidden, Bernie (or Trumpov, ). But stating that she would just eliminate price health insurance was fatal political malpractice. Other countries show thatv is possible to achieve near universal coverage in a variety of ways. For ex, in France and Australia (where I have lived), there is a mix of govt funded and private insurance, and that works heaps better than what we have in the US. Politics is the art of the possible, not the ideal. Warren should stay in the race as long as she wants and push her ideas. Maybe she runs as VP. And if the Dems win the WH, she could play a big role in the executive
Spanky
@Betty Cracker: Susan Collins’ furrowed brow is going to collapse in on itself.
I do hope there will be video.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@E:
Citation needed. He appears to believe that he can get things done by intimidating Congress via rabble-rousing. “Do what I want or I’ll unleash the Terror on you” sounds pretty authoritarian to me.
Beyond that, yeah, I’m seeing about as much overlap between Bernie the Cult Leader and Trump, and the Bernie Cultists and the MAGAts, as I see between the white evangelicals and the Taliban. The people supposedly behind the conspiracies are different, the targets are different, but that’s just filling in the MadLibs with different words.
Baud
@Immanentize:
I don’t see it either. Any “pressure” she is facing is really an implied threat that she will be persona non grata among progressives if she doesn’t endorse Sanders. And even though she may share Sanders’ views on a lot of policies, I doubt she think he would be able to successfully implement them.
Ivan X
I’d been with EW from the beginning, and when she shines, she shines, and I certainly agree with most of what she wants, and I believe that she wants what is good for American citizens in her heart, first and foremost. But I agree with SenyorDave’s comments above regarding M4A as a turning point at which she became permanently in the “Bernie flank,” beyond the pale for many voters. And she didn’t start punching hard against her competitors and distinguishing herself with corruption as a theme until it was too late. (And yes, the media sure didn’t help either with their studied lack of interest, just like they torpedoed Kamala Harris.)
I also started to have my doubts as to whether she could succeed when I went to a rally and I heard the repeated cry for “big, structural change,” and reading the statement above that concludes with it gave me the same feeling. It’s just not a winner for the masses. I don’t even feel charged up by it. “Structural” is just not a good word for a campaign slogan. It’s not emotional, it’s intellectual, and furthermore, it’s frightening to people who fear change, which is most people. (Obama’s “Change” was sufficiently abstract to not be threatening, and also softened by “Hope”.) Intellectualism is on brand for EW, but, IMO, just doesn’t win elections. Emotion does. “No More Corruption!” (for example) would have been clearer and more powerful, and broadly appealing.
I am sad about the choices we have left, and I think she ran the best campaign she could given who she is, but she (to her credit, but not to her success) is not a born politician, and she made some political errors.
I also think we need to come to grips with the fact that while many people in this country are passionate about wanting our government to be better and fairer, we are still, certainly by European standards, a pretty right-wing country. And in the big tent of the Democratic party, we have to accept the reality that many voters are going to go with who makes them feel safe, and makes them feel good, and candidates who reach too far in terms of wanting to “fix the broken system” may be rejected as a result. It sucks, but I can’t think of a national-level D candidate who has succeeded with that kind of message.
Anya
@Baud: I wish someone had the courage to say: “I will not raise my hands to a single yes or no answer for complicated topics like healthcare.” These are complicated issues that require nuanced answers.
Zinsky
I live in Minnesota and voted for Warren on Super Tuesday. If this were a job interview, Elizabeth is clearly the most qualified and has the most detailed and thoughtful plans for moving America forward. A nice but senile old man and a grouchy and unlikable curmudgeon are somehow considered as better job candidates?? I don’t think so…
Old, White, ostensibly Christian, men have messed up this country and this world so badly, they shouldn’t be allowed near the levers of power for many generations!
Don Beal
@joel hanes: Very reasonable response. Thank you for that.
Baud
@Anya: Or simply respond by raising a finger.
PAM Dirac
@Baud:
Very much this. Good governance is hard work and a lot of the work is tedious and thankless. Good ideas are a dime a dozen, the problem is all the work that needs to be done to figure out which of the good ideas actually work. I suspect I’m especially aware of this because I spent a career in cancer research, where good ideas are not l all in short supply, but things that actually work are very much in short supply. It is also a field where grinding out small advances over time does give you progress, but there are always people shouting that their idea will solve everything quickly and why is it being suppressed by the establishment. I just don’t trust anyone who thinks all they need is a good idea.
Matt McIrvin
I hope that, if/when Warren bows out, she promises to support the nominee and doesn’t endorse either of these guys.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
I agree with this. Except I don’t identify as a “progressive.” And never will. It has as many good connotations to me as “conservative” does now. I am what I have always been: a very liberal Democrat. Although I don’t have the same visceral negative reaction to Biden than you do, I do have much more liberal ideals than he does. But he’s fine to me this time around. Warren would have been my first choice, but it’s not going to happen and I really don’t see an upside to her staying in much beyond next week. I’m just curious as to why you seem to despise Biden so. I mean, you’re quite a bit younger than I am and I’ve lived through his many gaffes and Anita Hill and the bankruptcy bill, so I get all his awful baggage. But he’s a genuinely happy warrior, he seems very kind and empathetic and he truly loves and respects America, its people and its institutions. He’s not a monster nor is he a narcissist nor is he unable to grow (see his support for same sex marriage). I’m curious as to what is so horrible about him that I can almost see your lip curling in disgust every time you type his name.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize:
I don’t want to raise a sore subject and you’ve probably already answered this somewhere, but what’s the status of the trip?
danielx
@SFAW:
Possibly the most famous example – Nikolai Yezhov, aka the bloody dwarf.
Sab
@joel hanes: Didn’t know that about Klobuchar. My late father in law was an Iron Ranger. Cool but very tough guy. I admired him immensely.
zhena gogolia
@geg6:
I was all in for Harris and was very disappointed in her early departure, but man, I don’t think I have anywhere near the bitterness of the Warren supporters. My focus is on getting rid of Twitler. I don’t really care who does it. Sanders can’t do it and he’s also a Russian asset, but I guess I’d vote for the less evil Russian asset. But it’ll all be over by then.
Frankensteinbeck
@Immanentize:
Ain’t that the truth. Every Twitter thread I’ve seen on the topic is filled with venom and we’ve had an air lift troll in this very thread supply the condescending “Are you with us or against us?” take that is their more polite alternative. Attempts to reach out with respect have been basically nil.
Then again, I have always believed that the crossover Warren-to-Sanders vote was basically nil. Warren is the favorite of the strongly liberal economic left who think Sanders is an incompetent asshole that will do damage to their goals. Balloon Juice is what Warren supporters look like, and there is no “If not Warren, Sanders!” movement here.
PenAndKey
@E: Sanders operates his campaign by staffing it full of low quality toxic personalities, stump speeches with a combination of grievance and contrived platitudes masquerading as low-detail
plansgoals, and portrays and all opposition opposition to his candidacy as a progressive betrayal by “the institution”. All of this coming from a guy who refuses to self-identify as a democrat unless he’s running for president.You may not want to hear it, but that’s the same sort of cult of personality we’ve been dealing with under Trump and many of us have absolutely no interest in supporting a candidate like that. Will I vote for him if he manages to win the nomination? Yes, but given that the entire point of the primary is to pick who we want for the democratic nomination I think I’ll pick the actual democrat in the race, thanks
That sums me up. I’m well to the left of Biden and Warren is my preference, but given that the realistic options right now seem to be Biden, Sanders or Trump I know which of those three I’ll pick every time. It’ll be the one candidate left in the race who I actually consider a competent leader. It’s sure as hell not the bitter, narcissistic liberal who thinks the Underpants Gnomes are viable planners.
OzarkHillbilly
Who said that? Certainly not me. It appears you have an imaginary OzarkHillbilly in your head to keep the imaginary Bernie in your head company. There is no room for me in that imaginary discussion you are having so I’m gonna bow out.
geg6
@zhena gogolia:
Well, I’m a Warren supporter, but I’m realistic. Perhaps they had their hopes too high. Perhaps I’m just older and could easily see how this was going to work out in the end. I agree with those who said she tanked big time with the M4A and ending private insurance stuff, however nuanced her explanation of it may have been. But I think she was dead in the water from the start due to fear and misogyny. Fear that another woman nominee would lead to Trump’s reelection and just general misogyny, which has been ramped up to a feverish pitch over the course of these Trumpian times.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: Beside the four races you mention, I think GA, IA, KS, KY and TX are winnable if we have a blue wave like in 2018. And now MT. And Jaime Harrison has a shot against Graham in SC. I think there is an outsider vs. insider dynamic going on that hurts incumbents. The Democrats will have strong candidates in those races, many of them women. Who are still outsiders.
Xentik
FTFY.
There’s no other way to explain how it was “malpractice” for her to do so, but not for Bernie to do so. Only one of the two got punished for it, and hint hint, it’s not the one that had zero plans for how to get from here to M4A. Her plan had plenty of off-ramps that could have been taken at any point if it became politically untenable to go further at any point. But the media doesn’t do nuance, doesn’t do education, and had a hankering for “Bernie vs the Establishment” as their horserace theme.
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes:
Huh, and did you know that John McCain was a POW? For realz.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Sigh…
Viking is being a little obtuse about what’s going on. I understand that they feel like they are in a perilous position, but they are just playing it too close to the vest. Lombardy and Veneto are level 4 (no go) advisory and that is where Milan (where we fly back from) and Venice (last two day port) are. And it looks like Tuscany and the Time area will be next. But they have not given any alternate route….
They have offered a voucher for cancellations. But I put a lot of money down on this and that is a really bad result for me, tying up all that money. And it is unlikely the Immp and I will ever have three weeks together again like we have right now.
So, I’ve been trying to shake info from them. We have decided that Sunday will be our go/no go decision date. But I am leaning toward no, not because of covid, but because I don’t want to be stuck on the ship the entire 3 weeks.
The consolation prize for the Immp is that he would get to see his friends who come home for the Spring break, so he is not entirely désolé about not going.
chopper
@E:
yes, it’s anti-semitism behind the comparison. sure, jan.
pluky
@Cameron: Needs a prefixed: <suck teeth> Oh chile!
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes:
Huh, and did you know that John McCain was a POW? For realz.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: What a pain. I’m glad there’s at least a glimmer of bright side for the Immp.
O. Felix Culpa
@Matt McIrvin: Seconded.
Sab
@O. Felix Culpa: Chill out.
I didn’t know that, and my first husband’s people came from there. I thought she was from Minneapolis.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m quite sad, given this is the second time that cancellation was thrust upon us.
the Conster
@Xentik:
Thank you. The left *progressives* I see are a bunch of whiny virtue signalers either unable or unwilling to make progress, since it means negotiation, compromise and the hard and frustrating work of coalition building. They tout FDR, who threw women and blacks under the bus to get Social Security and Medicare. It seems to me like the brocialists I see online would be fine with that too, to get their M4All.
O. Felix Culpa
@Sab: What? Did you miss my invisible snark tags? Back atcha.
ETA: My comment stemmed from the fact that in every speech and debate Amy referred to her grandfather the iron miner. Sorry if you missed that. I was joking and my comment was prior to yours, so not directed at you in the least. A general chill might be in order.
mali muso
@Immanentize: I really feel for you. Working in the study abroad field myself, we are having to make some really hard decisions right now. Our concern is more about students getting stuck than it is about getting sick per se. But you should definitely agitate for whatever kind of refund or voucher that you can shake loose because given the CDC warning levels, etc. you have a case to make for a valid reason to pull out. Best of luck to you and to all of us.
joel hanes
@O. Felix Culpa:
I can only reply that nearly every Klobuchar supporter I’ve ever talked to was surprised to learn of her support for the mining industry.
This is salient in northern Minnesota, where a shell company owned by a mining transnat has nearly succeeded in getting permits to mine sulphides on the western upstream edge of the Boundary Waters wilderness. The permitting process was … irregular, and the irregularities concealed.
schrodingers_cat
I come from a deep blue part of Massachusetts. This area went for HRC by more than 70% in 2016. There are five colleges in my area. It was a stop on the underground railroad and it was welcoming to Jewish immigrants last century. People with multiple degrees are not uncommon here.
EW lost to BS here with the exception of a couple of towns. The vote was split 3 ways and BS won narrowly. Also EW+Biden > BS.
So the reasons for EW not doing well
She was running for the left lane and the left lane was already occupied she failed to distinguish herself in the eyes of voters.
She won the Balloon Juice primary and the liberal blog primary but that wasn’t enough to win even in deep blue Western Massachusetts.
Immanentize
@mali muso: I feel for you! My University has cancelled all Spring study abroad programs everywhere. We have a Madrid campus that we are not closing, but students may return to Boston if the don’t want to get caught there. This thing is really huge for normal higher education practices. Feels like the post-9/11 shutdown.
A Ghost To Most
Hopefully, this is just a stage of grief for Warren supporters. Party unity is imperative to beat the fascists.
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes: Again, I was making a joke, which clearly went over like a
leadiron balloon. Next time I’ll use snark tags. People are tetchy these days.the Conster
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m from a deep blue close in suburb of Boston, also well educated and also with many professional women in a town that was overwhelmingly for Clinton.
The results were Biden (1), Warren (2), Bloomberg (3) and Sanders (4). Bloomberg was a very close 2nd to Warren.
Immanentize
@O. Felix Culpa: Did you say “tetchy?” How do you know if I’m tetchy. How dare you call me that?! I come from the deep blue town next to “Tetchy” so don’t suppose on me!
/Obvious snark tag/
Dorothy A. Winsor
@O. Felix Culpa: We are all on edge, true. And studies show it’s hard to catch tone online. Plus trolls.
Frankensteinbeck
@A Ghost To Most:
It is. I’m sure of it. This is their thoroughly owed time to feel pain that their strongly felt priorities, particularly whether obvious competence is more important than gender, are not going to win the nomination. I have been watching Balloon Juice these past couple of months, and I have seen strong signs that we will rally around whoever the nominee is, and only Sanders or Bloomberg would have required much hesitation before pulling the lever against Trump. I am sorry for the strong Warren supporters, who have every reason to be hurting.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: Thank you for this.
schrodingers_cat
@the Conster: If she struggles to win in what should be her strongholds may be just may be she may not be that great of a politician.
I have lost count of the # of FP posts on this topic since Tuesday.
Immanentize
@the Conster: my town was Sanders/Warren/Biden with the first two very close and Biden not far behind. A real three way. But we have Tufts
joel hanes
@O. Felix Culpa:
I understood the joke.
I wasn’t sure that you understood that the “bet you didn’t know” referred to AK’s support for mining, rather than her origins in the iron range.
’nuff said
O. Felix Culpa
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Not sure how my comment could be interpreted as trollish. I had hoped to be drollish. ;-p
O. Felix Culpa
@Immanentize: LOL.
Also, I’m hoping for the best possible outcome for your trip. My friend’s casita in New Mexico is still a thing. :)
jonas
As it should be. That said, you’re absolutely right that candidates like Booker, Castro, Harris and, yes, Warren, probably would have done a lot better if this were a more normal — if anything’s been “normal” for the past generation it seems — campaign that was just a debate about policy direction.
joel hanes
@Frankensteinbeck:
grief
bargaining was January
depression was February
I’m working on acceptance
OzarkHillbilly
I took my sons damned near everywhere with me when they were growing up, from Mexico to Minnesota, from Wyoming to Georgia. When they were 18 and 20 I took them to Spain for 2 weeks. Our last major trip together. That was 15 years ago. I might have one more good trip with one or the other but I’ll never have another with both.
Carpe diem.
O. Felix Culpa
@joel hanes: All good. :)
Nicole
@zhena gogolia:
I think it depends on the supporter. You don’t, for sure, but I finally had to mute some people I really liked on Twitter because they directed a lot of their rage and grief at Harris dropping out onto Warren and it was getting so mean that it started to affect how I was feeling about Harris (full disclosure: I liked her and Warren equally and gave the same monthly donation to each). I muted them because if Harris ends up Biden’s VP (a great choice!) I don’t want to have any lingering association of her with some of her toxic stans.
I’m certainly not denying what you’ve seen; we all get a different media experience and I had self-selected my sample a bit in that I probably hit “follow” on more pro-Harris accounts early on. But either way, man, bullies ruin things for everyone.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I hate Bernie’s guts and liver, as I may have mentioned, I try to keep quiet about it, but this is too much even for me. trump is motivated by greed and racism. To stick to one issue: Sanders genuinely wants people to have health care, he hates that– to borrow a phrase from a nutty poster at eschaton who found a nut– cancer is a source of profit. That makes a lot of sense. The problem is that his almost pathological self-righteousness has become contagious.
As his supporters have pointed out he has always been willing to take half a loaf, but at some point in the 2016 race, the applause and the adulation and the little birdie drew him into a feedback loop with his followers, and what was the annoying personality his colleagues griped about (“He thinks anyone who disagrees with him is either stupid or corrupt.” “I’ve never had a conversation with Bernie, I’ve only been lectured at by Bernie”) became an overriding messiah complex. All his worst traits are exaggerated like he was bit by a radioactive self-righteous spider.
Just look at the last week. He loses South Carolina due to (in part) overwhelming support for someone else in the large African-American presence in the So Carolina Dem party, and he’s on TV the next day talking about the “corporate wing of Democratic Party”. His chief surrogates declare they are not “representative” of the party (still surprised Emo Mike hasn’t left the trail due to ‘health concerns’ after that one) and that the results are due to “lobbyists” (AOC (!)). There is something toxic about him, I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise at this point. He’s a bully like trump, or at the very least he inspires bullying. He’s reductive like trump. He’s a demagogue, but his motivations are from a different planet than trump’s.
JPL
@Immanentize: I read that Pence is meeting with cruise line execs on Saturday, so maybe they’ll be a little more forgiving. Viking is a high end cruise line, and they could be in danger of losing repeat customers unless they do.
r€nato
I’m curious whether all these people wringing their hands over the expected demise of the Warren campaign would be happy if that first woman president was someone like Sarah Palin or Carly Fiorina or Betsy DeVos.
The politics are much more important to me than the gender or skin color.
One of the two major political parties does not have a diversity problem. The first black president belonged to one of the two major political parties. For three consecutive presidential elections, a woman in one of the two major political parties ran a credible presidential campaign.
In this election cycle, one of the two major political parties even had an openly gay man running a credible presidential campaign.
The time will come eventually for a woman president and even an openly gay president. The Democratic party does not have a diversity problem, so hey Democrats for once let’s stop being Debbie Downer’s.
So Connie Schultz is bummed that she will have to wait another four years for the possibility of a female president (one presumes she really means a Democratic female…)? The story isn’t over yet for Sanders but chances are, I’m likely going to have to wait another four years for the possibility of having a president who will undertake the badly needed reforms of the deeply cruel and unjust American health care system. Call me a misogynist if that makes you happy but I think that one of these two goals is a bit more important than the other one to millions of lives.
Vhh
I think Elizabeth Warren would be a far better Pres than Bidden, Bernie (or Trumpov, ). But stating that she would just eliminate price health insurance was fatal political malpractice. Other countries show thatv is possible to achieve near universal coverage in a variety of ways. For ex, in France and Australia (where I have lived), there is a mix of govt funded and private insurance, and that works heaps better than what we have in the US. Politics is the art of the possible, not the ideal. Warren should stay in the race as long as she wants and push her ideas. Maybe she runs as VP. And even ifcshe is not VP, if the Dems win the WH, she could play a big role in the Cabinet.
r€nato
@Vhh: FFS no, Warren should not be nominated to any Cabinet position and if she is, I hope she has the good sense to not accept. We need her in the Senate.
JPL
Luckovich suggested a bumper sticker for dems. BYEDON
JPL
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m so glad you asked.
Cameron
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think his problem is that he started as a bomb-thrower in 2016, went a whole lot further than he had anticipated, and decided he was a messiah. I’m down with bomb-throwing in the Senate – that’s where he should stay.
Betty Cracker
@geg6: Keep in mind that you asked! :)
The Anita Hill thing is a huge part of it. I was just out of college and in my first real job when that happened, and boy, was it ever an eye-opener, not only about how women are treated in the workplace (which I knew by then) but also about how utterly clueless and dismissive even the “good guys” are about it. It was disgraceful.
I get that Biden wasn’t an outlier on that, but that doesn’t make it okay. He displayed the casual misogyny of so many men that age and kept right on doing so in the decades that followed, coming to symbolize (for me) every smiling, patronizing old fart who ever condescended to and/or brushed off a woman who was 100 smarter and more qualified than himself.
I understand times change and people evolve, and hallelujah for that. But my god, do the same old dinosaurs have to run things forever? Evidently so! Biden has been running for president since I was a college student, and now my college student kid is going to have to vote for him! Maybe “persist” should be HIS fucking slogan since he’s persisted literally for generations now.
Then there was the bankruptcy bill, the Iraq War salesmanship (not just a defensive and cowardly vote: salesmanship), the grifty family, etc. No point in going there, but it’s a factor for me.
Where you see a happy warrior who loves America, I see a maudlin, glad-handing, grinning, shape-shifting old pol who should have thanked his lucky stars a better man elevated him to the vice presidency and then called it a career after that but could not due to his gigantic fucking ego.
So here we are, going into an election against a monster weaker and more vulnerable than we should be. I blame the media, the campaign finance system and fearful, dithering voters, but I damn well blame Biden too.
All that said, fuck yes, I’ll vote for him and even put his goddamn sticker on my car and encourage everyone I know to vote for him. But I reserve the right to be disgruntled about it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Vhh: yes and @r€nato: yes
One of the problems Sanders has created is the notion that anything less than single payer is a big corporate sell-out and “every industrialized country in the world has single payer!
and I am baffled by the people who want Warren to leave the Senate. The cult of the presidency is a big problem in our politics, and we have it worse than the right. And yes, it’s another problem that’s been exacerbated, if not caused, by Bernie-ism
Princess
@Immanentize: I’m supposed to teach in study abroad in April in Israel and I don’t know why they haven’t already canceled. It seems obvious to me it will be.
OzarkHillbilly
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nononoooooo, they’re exactly alike! No difference at all. And to say anything in contravention of that unalloyed fact means you support him in everything he does!!!
//s
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Geminid:
Amy McGrath is in the introductory round of a set of commercials that are going to really hammer McConnell at his weakest point – what he has failed to do for working class Kentuckians and how he ignores their requests for assistance. Her most common phrasing at rallies and on her commercials is along the lines of “what use is it to have a powerful senator if he is not going to do anything for us”.
It has to have been stinging him – he’s had some stalking horse journos start scattering some articles here and there about random federal projects and dollars he’s brought in recently. This is new, I haven’t seen him rattled like this in the past.
OzarkHillbilly
The warning has been heard loud and clear in these parts.
A Ghost To Most
@r€nato: what he said.
Beat the fascists, then argue about policy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
I can’t disagree with any of that, except I see him as a a maudlin, glad-handing, grinning, shape-shifting old pol and a happy warrior who loves America
and who will sign all the legislation that’s as good as Nancy Pelosi and a Democratic Senate (which he increases the odds of us getting– and which might well include not only Kyrsten Sinema but Seth Bullock– as long as he doesn’t have a stroke or start drooling during his Convention speech) will send to his desk.
Sab
@Betty Cracker: Me also a happy disgruntled supporter ( sort of. Still team Warren, This hurts.)
Orange Is The New White
@Baud: Maximum agreement. I was at Kos as well, left after watching the treatment getting dished out to New Deal Democrat (who posts here on occasion) and Bonddad for trying to help Kossacks keep their retirement funds.
That particular community, who I held out hope for a long time (until the 2016 elections) was not a representation of the entire “progressive left”, but ended up being a pretty accurate picture of them, were in your face assholes whose favorite sports were purity purging and sheer lunacy. Back then, Bernie was just some asshole from Vermont who was good at being that extra seat we needed and not much else. But even without him, they were still hateful jerks and they keep doubling down on that.
My greatest fear? A progressive/moderate split that puts us in Harper-era Canada territory, where the left splits their vote to the point of uselessness and the right wins power with 40% pluralities.
OzarkHillbilly
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’ll keep my toes crossed. Toes because I’m all out of fingers to cross.
the Conster
@schrodingers_cat:
I’ve seen this coming since her Senate run. She underperformed Hillary, and Mass. has seen more of the whole picture of her than the national press has shown. It’s not all great, at least to me. I’ve gone from being really enthusiastic about her when she first ran for Senate, to meh.
I’ve learned to wait until South Carolina votes before I know where to really lean into a candidate, although not gonna’ lie, my first serious donation and hope for the GE was Jay Inslee. I really really liked him as a candidate. A lot.
Hoodie
@geg6: This is pretty much where I’m at but, while I admire Warren, I suspected that she wasn’t quite ready for prime time, especially when you’re going up against established candidates like Biden and Sanders. She didn’t have a good idea as to how position herself within the field and got stuck in a no-man’s land between Sanders and Biden. She also had not cultivated enough connections within the party. Granted, she could never match Biden’s relationships, but Obama did a lot of that before trying to take on a party giant like Hillary Clinton.
It may also have just not been her moment. As some have observed, this election is mostly about an emergency — getting rid of Trump. You have to act as if everything else, while still important, is secondary to that. Endlessly talking about the details of health care is not the way to do that.
I can see reasons for having her stay in and would respect her decision to do so, but I find myself wishing she would bow out now and endorse Biden to send Bernie back to his lake house to enjoy the full vacation season. She really has maximum leverage with Biden now, and he’s the kind of guy who will be willing to make a deal and at least try to live up to it. It could also put her in a position to take the mantle of the leader of the “progressive” wing (I hate that term because I think most Democrats are pretty progressive) from Bernie.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: It is interesting that people here mention Anita Hill more than they mention VAWA. My s-i-l who works for a women’s advocacy group would crawl over burning, broken glass to vote for Biden for anything because of VAWA. For her, Anita Hill is an incident, but VAWA is an accomplishment that stands the test of time. FWIW it sounds like she would be about five or so years younger than you (so same general age group).
Frankensteinbeck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
McConnell is by no means the mastermind politician he is portrayed as, but he’s far from stupid and he has seen the electoral writing on the wall the last three years. In particular, he’s almost as unpopular as Bevin was. He needs to remain Senate Majority Leader if he’s going to finish burning America to the ground for daring to make a black man his boss. Yeah, he’s rattled.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@OzarkHillbilly:
The left hates her because she’s a vet who isn’t advocating M4A and free college, which makes her a warmongering neoliberal corporate shill.
Clearly, the only reason why Kentucky hasn’t gone blue is that Kentucky voters haven’t been presented with the sage brilliance of a candidate to the left of Lev Trotsky.
HRA
I have no clue whether anyone else has submitted this truth here today. In 1986 Senator Joe Biden wrote and presented a bill to Congress on climate change. Everyone have a good day.
OzarkHillbilly
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: For some people the good is always the enemy of the perfect. They would prefer us living in a box under bridge cooking sparrows on coat hangers because obviously then we would finally see the wisdom of their ways.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@HRA: I did not know that. But I do see that climate is one of the issues where the true Biden haters are convinced he will betraaaay us. It’s very strange.
Orange Is The New White
Warren’s the best candidate running. Aligns with what I want for the nation. I think she’d be a superb president. So why have I been supporting Biden? Why did I vote for him?
Polls. For two years now, Biden has not only consistently beaten Trump in them, he beats him with the needed 5%+ margin – or more – that’s needed to overcome the very real obstacle of the electoral college. (Ms. Clinton got 4.5%, and we see what that gets you).
Warren has never made those numbers. And I made a vote I’m not sorry I made, but I will never feel good about the circumstances that lead me there. Biden will get Trump out of the White House and stop the bleeding, and more than that I’m not going to ask of him. He’s not going to be that president. He’s not going to check off any item on my wishlist save for one. But he will get the most important thing done.
OzarkHillbilly
I did not know that. Thankyou.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Frankensteinbeck:
Theoretically, were he to lose his role as Majority Leader, he’d be the guy that gets the blame as the insider who led his party to electoral defeat and a long-term downhill slide by going “all-in” on Trump. He and his entire network of flunkies and political influencers (the army of staffers and lobbyists who do his bidding and lean in to members of his caucus, as well as in the House) stand to be left out in the cold for a long time to come.
He likely retires if the GOP gets pushed out, should he be lucky enough to retain his seat; he’d find it hard to get invited to so much as a cup of coffee in the cafeteria.
The biggest mistake was this – governing the country as if the median Congressional District was ideologically in sync with a rural part of Northern Alabama, Eastern Kentucky, West Virginia or Central Pennsylvania.
206inKY
@Baud: I think Hillary was clearly hobbled by thirty years of raw sexism. It was like muscle memory. But the evidence of 2018 suggests there’s clearly an appetite for electing more women.
However, I’m not hearing Warren supporters consider the possibility that lots of voters were skeptical of the leftist turn of the primary. I don’t think Klobucher, Susan Rice, Duckworth endorsed Biden because of sexism. Her decision to say “I’m with Bernie” on healthcare was a misstep when the ACA itself is still under assault.
My own policy expertise is higher education, and I think Bernie and Warren’s approach to “free college” is a stalking horse that would cripple regional comprehensive universities in red states by making then dependent on state funding. In Kentucky, Bevin could have shut down multiple universities if it weren’t for the financial independence offered by tuition. Now, if Bernie and Warren had made the case for massive increases in federal funding for higher ed, I could support that. But they haven’t framed it like that. They can’t force states to come up with enough taxpayer dollars to replace tuition. “Free college” is all candy, no vegetables, and the losers would be the universities that close up shop when funding evaporates. I suspect lots of Republicans would vote to ban tuition for precisely that reason.
I enthusiastically supported Hillary, donated to Klobucher, and will be overjoyed if Abrams advances as I think she will. They all align with my views, and we desperately need a woman to be president. But I won’t vote for someone too far to the left in a primary, and I certainly won’t vote for Nikki Haley or any Republican in a general, even if they are women. Constantly repeating the same explanation for Warren’s losses (I’d support a woman, just not that woman) closes the conversation on substantive policy disagreements and fails to explain why Klobucher beat her in NH.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Also, too (to paraphrase Sarah Palin), progressives fail to recognize that there is a deep preference in the American polity to hew to an adjustable status quo, and when people generally talk about shifting toward progressive goals, they’re not looking to upend everything in the process.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Yeah, this. The fact that some people are open to working with progressives on left-leaning policies doesn’t mean they ready to take the Long March on behalf of the Revolution.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@206inKY:
Speaking just for me as a middle-aged white dude from KY, I adored Hillary and enthusiastically supported and contributed. I thought Harris could have been just like her and was bitterly disappointed when she didn’t catch media attention, and would love to see Biden-Harris (with a Biden retirement in a year or two). I’d have happily supported Amy Klobuchar as well.
I could vote for Warren despite her endorsement of the stupid that is BernieCare, but wouldn’t be enthusiastic about it because frankly, something about her delivery rubs me the wrong way on a personal level.
I like what I like – but if that’s my reaction, how many others feel the same way?
Aziz, light!
I try to sway my Bernie-loving friends by saying that he is a good man but would be an ineffective leader. I dare not tell them what I really feel, which is growing rage that he and his surrogates are using Trump’s playbook. Slandering his rivals and disparaging their voters. Calling anyone and anything that doesn’t go his way corrupt, and feeding his followers an endless stream of conspiracy theories. Always blaming others for any misjudgments. Basking in the adoration of his base. Living in a narcissistic fantasy in which only he can fix the nation’s problems, in which solutions will not be forged by years of expertise and compromise but will emerge intact from the lofty emanations of his brain. Running to be king, not president, and believing that once he is crowned, everyone will fall in line behind him.
I’ve seen this movie before and it does not end well. I know his most toxic acolytes are not high in number but they are very loud. I fear for what will happen at the convention and to turnout in the general as Sanders drags this out to the bitter end.
Jerzy
She’s thrown in the towel, officially.
Zelma
I have been donating to Warren monthly for quite a while. I just went to her site and asked her not to throw her support to Bernie. I believe he would lose which would be a tragedy. But I also believe that if, by the blessings of God Almighty, he won, it would be bad for progressive causes because he lacks the skill set to get anything done politically.
Let me indicate why I think he would lose: it’s that term “Socialist.” He is, in fact a Socialist, a Democratic Socialist. I think a lot of people don’t understand the difference between a “Democratic Socialist” and a “Social Democrat.” I often see the terms used interchangeably, but they are not the same.
A Social Democrat believes in a representative government that provides a strong social safety net for its people. The European countries, especially the Scandanavian countries, are Social Democracies.
A Democratic Socialist believes in using democratic means to achieve socialist aims. And these aims have traditionally to bring much of the economy under government control. Think of the British Labour governments after World War II: they nationalized the railways, the trucking industry, the steel industry, etc. At the time, these were the major aspects of the British economy.
One can argue that Bernie’s plan of imposed Medicare for All is analogous to what the Labour government did from 1945-1950. That is, to bring the health industry – and it is an industry; indeed it is the largest industry in the US – under government control. To “nationalize” it.
So when Bernie embraces the label of “Socialist,” take him seriously.
Subsole
@Cameron:
Late to the thread, but just curious why you left the DSA.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: Biden has definitely done good things too, and the VAWA was one of them. He seemed to be ahead of Obama on marriage equality. He also chaired the committee that banned assault weapons in the 1990s, etc.
I was responding to a specific question, so I didn’t go into that. But after the primary concludes, and if Biden wins as is now expected, I plan to review the positive things Biden has done, not for the blog, but to remind myself of them so when I encounter other voters who are demoralized by Biden’s nomination, I’ll have something positive to say.
PS: Phone alert says Warren is out. Le sigh.
geg6
@Betty Cracker:
I’ll admit, the Anita Hill hearing was just infuriating and I had a grudge against him for many years afterward. It is the thing that turned me off him as a young feminist woman at the time. But every time I think about that, I have to consider VAWA. VAWA was a truly revolutionary piece of legislation in the gender wars and I’ll always be grateful for it and his role in it. See…growth. I can’t get too upset about the bankruptcy bill (well, I could but I won’t) because it really was about protecting an industry that is huge in his state and for which many of his constituents count on as their employers. Every politician has to work for their constituents. And the Iraq War vote is not one I’m going to relitigate. I enthusiastically voted for Hillary, who acted in no way different from Joe at that time, and I can’t hold it against Joe if I didn’t hold it against her. I just don’t get your level of vitriol toward him. He’s certainly not the worst old white man out there and it looks like the electorate is gunning for an old white man. I’m not his biggest fan, but he’s not in any way the worst one out there.
Matt McIrvin
@Frankensteinbeck: This site has the “if not Warren, Biden!” people. LGM has “if not Warren, Sanders!” Though more in the front-pagers than the comments.
Matt McIrvin
(At this point, my attitude is “let the strongest candidate win and I’ll support them.” Harm reduction. If not Warren, I don’t have a dog in the primary fight. The good candidates apart from her all dropped out long ago.)
Cameron
@Subsole: Mostly because I’ve gotten a lot more local-government/anarchist-oriented (I’ve been fascinated by the Democratic Freedom Caucus, but they have too many sketchy characters there for me to participate. Do like their ideals, though). For sure I believe that everyone should have food, clothing, shelter and health care, and that we are all part of a community of people (not tribes) and deserve equal rights and privileges. Don’t know if DSA and I have that many differences in our dream societies, but methodology differs.
Barbara
@SenyorDave: I agree that M4A was a big mistake for Warren. She was just so casual about it, raising her hand during a debate to a question about wanting to eliminate private health insurance. To me, who works in the field, it seemed one part pandering and one part impervious to reality. And I think it seemed like pandering to Sanders’ supporters — it didn’t draw any of them to her — but it drove away others, and put her in a position where she wasn’t really pleasing anyone, and perhaps just as important, it seemed to come out of nowhere with zero advance planning or strategy. And yes, I still gave money to her but I felt the air go out of the balloon almost instantly.
I think perhaps if we should have learned one lesson over the last 40 years, beginning with Clinton, is that there is a good chance you are only going to get one clear shot at something big as president and people have to agree that your energy is directed where they want it to be. I could go on and on about this, but what I would say is that although people are worried about health care there is no evidence that they want a long drawn out fight that takes us back to the drawing board. That might seem like progress to some, but it sounds like going back to square one to others.
Subsole
@joel hanes:
What makes you think it will thrive? I see a very angry, paranoid, utterly fact-free movement that is starting to look worryingly similar to some 4chan holes I almost fell down back in the day. Not so much the content, but the mechanisms.
What corrective forces do you guys see in the movement? From where would they come? Because I see a lot of Dappo Claphouse and not much else.
Maybe I just have twitter-poisoning, though.
Matt McIrvin
@Frankensteinbeck: There are poll results identifying Warren supporters as the least likely to bail on a nominee other than their favored candidate. Of course, that also meant that there was the least hostage-taking incentive to nominate her.
Subsole
@Cameron:
Thanks for the reply. So would you be more anarcho-syndicalist, or similar?
Really liked the distinction between tribes and communities. What little anarcho-prim stuff I saw left me a little leery on that front.
Betty Cracker
@geg6: I don’t agree that Biden wasn’t worse than Hillary on the Iraq War — he was WAY worse and far more powerful as a relevant committee chairman — but I don’t see any point of arguing about it here. In the general election, we’ll be treated to the videos demonstrating that point from the gigantic hypocrite Trump, who falsely claims HE opposed the war. I just hope time has defanged that issue sufficiently that it won’t accrue to Trump’s benefit. Anyhoo, I do agree with your last point; there are people far worse than Biden for sure.
Subsole
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Also, too (assuming we don’t just let the last 4 years slide out of some misguided spirit of kumbaya) Mitch may be looking at some very hard questions from some notoriously humorless Federal agencies. Lots of corruption, subverting democracy, and he sits at the center of it.
Ksmiami
@jonas: honestly to me this election is analogous to a gunshot patient (us democracy) on the operating table With multiple wounds (Trump and GOP inflicted) about to die unless the doctors (Biden/ Democratic house and Senate) can stabilize him and stop the bleeding. Once there’s some recovery, then the other treatments (like improving ACA) can begin, but this election has to stabilize our country from Republican and Trumpian madness.
Ksmiami
@Betty Cracker: I’d say being Obama’s Vice President was a BFD especially to Black voters crucial to our party base but that’s just me…
Martin
My guess Warren doesn’t endorse Biden until Biden hears her on financial corruption/bankruptcy/etc. Yes, the CFPB was her idea, but it was a component, not the whole. Biden needs to hear the whole, and give some indication he’ll advance her plans.
I’d love to see her as Treasury Sec, but I’m not sure that position can do the things she wants. Maybe. At the very least, it would be a Treasury Sec unlike one we’ve ever seen before.