A $500 billion slush fund for corporations with almost no conditions is unacceptable. We have to ensure the help these companies receive goes to their workers — not their CEOs.
It's time for President Trump and Mitch McConnell to put American families first. https://t.co/SWU2bLhCGj
— Joe Biden (Text Join to 30330) (@JoeBiden) March 23, 2020
TOMORROW: Democratic presidential candidate and former vice president @JoeBiden joins us LIVE via satellite to discuss the latest on the coronavirus pandemic, how he thinks Pres. Trump is handling it, and what’s next for his campaign amid the national crisis. pic.twitter.com/xsC0E0B6Hr
— The View (@TheView) March 23, 2020
And, of course, his shadow cabinet, working for the voters instead of Trump’s kakistocratic cronies…
THE PELOSI CASH PLAN:
• $1,500 checks for individuals
• $3,000 for joint filers
• Extra $1,500 per kid up to 3
• Maximum $7,500 per family
• Universal for those w/ taxpayer ID # (includes seniors, unemployed)
• Individuals making $75K+ in 2020 will pay some/all of it back— Sahil Kapur (@sahilkapur) March 24, 2020
Read the whole thing (it’s not long!):
How House Democrats' stimulus plan compares to the Senate GOP plan https://t.co/aqkWyCPxRA
— Caitlin Emma (@caitlinzemma) March 24, 2020
counter-argument: in the senate she can actually drive that response and she doesn't need to be on the ticket for Biden's team to adopt her policies which they're already starting to do https://t.co/b00JEUMjpM
— local jack please ban the nazis person (@pleizar) March 23, 2020
I want to be careful here. Do other Republicans agree with this? https://t.co/tJ6sOQQZSM
— Brian Schatz (@brianschatz) March 24, 2020
If we give Trump a massive slush fund and don’t hold him accountable, we are repeating his father’s mistakes.
— Jason Kander (@JasonKander) March 23, 2020
Eminence Grise in Chief:
Former President Obama is making use of his large social media platforms to address the coronavirus and posting like never before since leaving the presidency. https://t.co/9qZNp57snc
— MSNBC (@MSNBC) March 24, 2020
debbie
Trump will go off on Biden in 3…2…1…. Or at least at today’s COVID-19 news conference
ETA: Maybe even sooner. They’ve announced Trump will hold a virtual town hall at noon on Fox to answer viewer questions.
germy
debbie
@germy:
Already unavailable tweet. That fucking Paul Gigot.
WereBear
@debbie: Ermagerd. I’m guess this will be epic.
germy
@debbie: Odd, it’s still up on twitter.
WereBear
@germy: Not when I tried.
Matt McIrvin
Wait, I thought Biden was dead? I heard if you play Tom Perez’s tweets backwards it says “I buried Joe”! Maybe they replaced him with a lookalike!
debbie
@WereBear:
I even scrolled through Malloy’s feed. Nada.
germy
I remember hearing “Mr. Obama“ on the news all the time during his administration.
danielx
@germy:
Well, that didn’t take long.
WereBear
I’ve been waiting for the Death Cult admission. I think we’ve got it.
See? There is no peak wingnut!
debbie
@germy:
Pity his supporters weren’t up late enough last night to defend their man. I am loving the comments!
Baud
@germy:
ETA: The NYT is not that honest or perceptive.
danielx
Menards at 6 am to pick up Lysol spray and disposable gloves….nope, the online inventory was outdated. Ended up with another spray bottle for bleach solution and a couple of extra N95 masks for my sister in law. $6.97 for two, she paid $23.00 apiece for ten on Amazon.
OzarkHillbilly
US to cut $1bn of Afghanistan aid over failure to agree unity government
Peace in our time!
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
We’re now officially supporting the Taliban.
germy
Man dies after drinking fish tank cleaner in misguided homemade cure
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I’m pretty sure Fred Trump would be quite satisfied with how il Douche handled the money he was given, especially since he spent years helping Daddy dearest shelter his money from taxes.
What we would be repeating are tge 2006 Congress’s mistakes WRT Bush and his bailouts. No accountability, presumably the Republicans’ idea.
NotMax
A final quick mention.
Relevant to these times, TCM is showing Enemy of the People, an adaptation of Ibsen’s play about political, business and public relations efforts to distort or otherwise misdeal with a public medical crisis, Tuesday at 6 p.m. Eastern time.
Baud
germy
Perspective: Will coronavirus intimacy lead to a baby boom? Or a divorce tsunami?
WereBear
@germy: That is emphatically a death on his doorstep. If some faith healer/MLM type did this, could they be prosecuted?
TS (the original)
This is not a conversation I can imagine any family ever wanting to have. Only a republican in love with money over people would ever say anything like this – and he seems to forget that it may not just be the grandparents dying in this scenario.
debbie
@germy:
I can’t imagine chloroquine as a cleaner of any type. Perhaps the gentleman, misplacing his glasses, confused chloroquine with chlorine.
Amir Khalid
@germy:
The NYT calls all men mister in subsequent mentions, even POTUSes. (Exceptions are of course made for, say, the musician Sir Ringo Starr or the astrophysicist Dr Brian May.) It sounds old-fashioned, yeah, but that’s the house style. Surely a guy from New York would know this from occasionally reading the paper(he said innocently).
Baud
@TS (the original):
I mean, it’s only death. It’s not like we’re asking grandparents to pay a cent more in taxes.
OzarkHillbilly
@germy: What Covid misses, the stupidity will clean up.
WereBear
@TS (the original): It’s a cult. All bets are off.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I’m just surprised to hear them publicly admit it.
NotMax
@TS (the original)
How soon does Texas start manufacturing and launching fiberglass ice floes?
germy
@Amir Khalid: I know you’re right, but the facts aren’t stopping his fans:
(face = fact?)
WereBear
@debbie: According to the article, it’s the same drug, but in a form to kill algae infestations. Poison to humans.
“Don’t believe the President” has reached its highest level.
germy
Ex-Campaign Staff Suing Bloomberg For Broken Salary Promises
OzarkHillbilly
@TS (the original): As I noted in the last thread, the votes of older Americans in 2016 were pretty much a big old economic “Fuck You.” to the younger generations.
Gin & Tonic
@germy: I’m trying to be a good liberal here, but if stupid people listen to the moron-in-chief, drink caustic/toxic chemicals and die, I’m hard-pressed to view that as anything other than natural selection.
JAFD
Ms. Malloy’s tweet still on Twtr. Got a ‘not available’, but hit the ‘refresh’ circloarrow.
Received letter from Board of Elections. “We have pushed the date of School Board Election back to May, and will be doing it totally by mail. We haven’t figured out the June primary, yet… Thank you for your past services.” Waybackwhen (in February) there was GOP state legislator, on morning radio news, speaking of bipartisan bill to raise poll workers salary, from $200 for day to $300. Seems Republicans in Hunterdon County were having trouble getting people. As you have to be there at 5:15 to get set up, ready to open at 6 AM, till polls close at 8 PM, secure machine, tidy up, get results to courthouse… is not munificent hourly compensation.
Live in senior citizen’s building, no non-essential visitors allowed, no visitors showing flu symptoms, meet your visitors at the door.
Summoned for jury duty on May 14th. Am juror pool #0007, don’t know what the extra zero licenses me to do…
Got up early Sunday morn. Was at local supermarket at quarter of 8. Got carrots and onions and taters, bananas and apples and grapes, bread and eggs and milk (one gallon per person) and cookies, dried beans and peas and rice (had a pallet of 20# bags outside the door (I only got 3# bag myself…). Had some TP in stock, limit 2 rolls/person.
Got home. Took nap (Been staying inside too much. Out of shape. Gotta walk some laps round block)
Should have worn gloves. Was COLD outside Sunday, here. Got home with fingers almost frozen.
Heading to drugstore this morn, prescripts to refill.
Hope y’all are staying healthy and happy. Love, luck and lollipops !
danielx
@TS (the original):
I’m sure the two million-odd grandparents in this country raising grandchildren on their own will be willing to step right up.
Princess
Thank God. I saw the headline and I was afraid this was going to be about Cuomo.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Observation that is frequently missed – the Market isn’t just rich people and upper middle class folks with 401Ks. They’re also the backbone of every public and private defined benefit pension and many right wing Trumpy olds are soon to start hearing and feeling some shakeups in disbursements.
If you’re getting those funds now, please use them to benefit your children and grandchildren as soon as you can – spending creates velocity, which can benefit markets and blunt the downside.
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: There’s no pay off for being a “good” liberal.
TS (the original)
@germy:
Strange that no-one complained the billion times they called President Obama, Mr Obama.
Cannot believe the “poor me” that continually comes through Trump’s twitter. In future times this will surely be a study in how a president should never behave. I just can’t believe that the media do not call him on this b.s. every day of the year. When children act like this they are told in no uncertain terms it gets them nowhere and nothing.
OzarkHillbilly
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’m not looking forward to my next pension statement.
NotMax
Hoping folks are making decisions now to not hold regular Passover seder gatherings this year and keep attendance limited to the household.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
You’re pension isn’t a fixed sum? Is it like a 401(k)?
Patricia Kayden
@debbie: Trump goes off on his perceived enemies all the dang time so how would him going off on Biden any different? I’m sure Biden can handle him.
satby
@NotMax: thanks, haven’t seen that for a long time, but it will be perfect viewing for tonight. Hope you’re doing well, glad to see yesterday that your mom still is!
PenAndKey
You know, this feels like a moment that someone should sit the courtroom scheduler down and give them a lecture on the actual timeline projections here, not the “we’ll ratchet up every week so we don’t dump it on people all at once” that so many states are doing
And wait, people actually still get pensions? I know it’s a major concern for many older Americans that apparently Texas figures should “take one for the team”, but to me and everyone I know under fifty they’re about as real as unicorns. The closest I’ve ever come to one is in my current job where I got to listen to my retiring plant manager wax on about how great his pension was because of ‘company loyalty’ and how ‘staying with one company for your whole carrier pays off’. Meanwhile, they stopped offering pensions fifteen years ago and all we’ve got is a standard 401k to look forward to. And those aren’t looking so hot right now.
MattF
Back from supermarket. No TP or towels, but otherwise reasonably well stocked. Got eggs, bread, etc. Washed hands twice once I got home, which is a bit compulsive.
satby
@JAFD: Good to see you JAFD! Stay well.
prufrock
@Gin & Tonic: It’s only natural selection if they haven’t finished reproducing.
TS (the original)
@danielx: And many of us who don’t raise them are providing both emotional and financial support whenever it is needed.
I don’t know why so many olds voted for trump or why they think the worst thing in the world is a democrat who actually cares about people above money, but it sure doesn’t happen in my family, nor among the majority of my friends who are also grandparents. We are the safety net and we take on the role with love.
debbie
@germy:
Bullshit. I was reading the NYT back in the 70s and they used “Mr.” or similar for everyone. I guess Bright Boy doesn’t know his hometown paper as well as he says he does.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Don’t you need, like, a prescription for the former?
MattF
@debbie: It’s a bit of reverse snobbery. When I was at Cornell, everyone, including professors, was addressed as ‘Mr.’ Or, for the few women on the staff, Miss or Mrs.
MomSense
We had a snowstorm last night and lost power at some point. Thank goodness the power is back on to make coffee.
I’m working reduced hours for awhile which means I’ll have time to do some shoveling.
germy
@debbie: I’d hear “Mr.” Obama on TV news, public radio, and I’d see it in the newspapers.
Trump probably thought that was the natural order of things. He probably wanted them to call Obama “boy” but now that he’s president, all news outlets apparently need to use his preferred term “His Excellency.”
debbie
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
Yes, and apparently doctors have been writing prescriptions for themselves and family members, to the point where there are shortages.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Likewise, I’ve beem wondering what we were going to do about Easter this year.
MattF
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: They had a bottle of it lying around. Was for their koi pond. Woman, after her husband died, now says one should not believe what Trump says.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@debbie: Be that as it may, I can’t imagine doctors are ordering patients to take lethal quantities of the stuff
eric
I wonder if this is pushback against mail in vote. You see, if it is okay to go back to work, then it is okay to vote. and more sane people will not go wait in line to vote, especially when polling places are limited such as in heavily democratic places.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
So definitely chlorine and not chloroquine. Got it.
MattF
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Chlorquine phosphate, it said in the news story.
prostratedragon
@NotMax: Wonder if they’ll queue up The Ballad of Narayama (either version) any time soon.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@MattF: Oh I see. Still not the immunosuppressant/anti-malaria drug. The second half of the name matters.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: No, it’s a defined benefit plan. But in ’08, ’09, 10, after the last market crash our pension fund went severely into the red because 1) the market crashed 2) half the damned carpenters in the CDC were unemployed. I was fortunate enough to work through most of the bad times but I was making higher contributions to get the fund back in the black. The only “help” we got was threatening letters from the PBGC.
I fear things will be much worse this time around. IF the PBGC were to seize the fund, there’s no telling what I would get beyond fucked.
danielx
I can hear Sean and the MAGAts (band name!*) already: Trump says it’s going to be okay! “Doctors” and “experts”, what do they know, really?
If there is one thing of which I am tolerably certain in this uncertain world, it is that Donald Trump views all issues and problems through the lens of how they affect the fortunes of Donald Trump. If people have to die to raise stock market values thereby helping his chances of re-election, well, making omelettes is always hard on a few eggs. All of a piece with the proclamation of that asshole lieutenant governor in Texas (of course Texas) – shocking but not surprising.
Trump says he may soon push businesses to reopen, defying the advice of coronavirus experts
NotMax
@satby
Must say was impressed when she told me that throughout this situation she’ll keep paying the housekeeper who normally comes once a week the same regular amount that would be paid if the housekeeper showed up. We each do what we can for one another, within our means.
As for viewing – and as breaks to take a time out from the miasma of near constant distress are necessary – although it doesn’t come to Prime until early May, the trailer holds potential for it being a romp.
Spanky
@germy: Porque no los dos?
Gin & Tonic
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: No, chloroquine. It’s used in cleaning aquariums (aquaria?)
Probably not a good sign that this supplier is sold out.
OzarkHillbilly
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: No, NOT chlorine, chloroquine
ETA And Matt F beat me to it.
Gin & Tonic
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: No, it is the antimalarial. Same chemical. Maybe you should just quit while you’re behind.
OzarkHillbilly
@danielx: If trump thinks things in the stock market are bad now, just wait until tens of thousands are dying and hundreds of thousands are filling up the hospitals. Or should that be “hundreds of thousands dying and millions in the hospitals”?
Snarki, child of Loki
Texas Lt. Gov Dan Patrick has said on Fox New that “lots of” grandparents would be willing to die in order in to save the economy for their grandchildren
Both Lt. Gov Patrick and Trump are grandparents.
Let’s see them lead by example.
Immanentize
@NotMax: Right there is Jewish irony:
Passover cancelled because of a plague.
PenAndKey
It’s the same base drug. The difference is in the dosing and % of active compound per gram, and allowable variance per pill, in the medicinal form vs the “kill all the algae” pill form. Hell, I’m a microbiologist and half of my major was in biochemistry. I wouldn’t trust myself to be able to get a workable safe dose if someone asked me to. Some yahoo listening to Trump’s sales pitch doesn’t stand a chance.
And this is why Pelosi has been, and always will be, a superior politician to McConnell. The 1400 page, $2.5T plan they released after the abomination the Senate GOP tried to ram through covers every base and angle of attack the GOP has tried the last couple days. I’m sure they’ll fight against it as much as they can, and will kill it if given half a chance, but this is why McConnell and the GOP usuals were ranting about the Democrats blocking
theirthe bill.They missed their looting window of opportunity. All we can hope for at this point is that Pelosi capitalizes on that and bashes the GOP over their heads with the House plan. If we even get half of what the House proposed we’ll be in a much better position as a country moving forward
NotMax
@debbie
Stories I’ve seen mention there has been a gigantic spike in orders from and shipping to parts of Africa, contributing significantly to the sudden shortage. Same stories report deaths and severe ill effects among people there ingesting it in quantity.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Well played, sir.
Immanentize
@PenAndKey: All spending bills must originate in the House. Pelosi wins if the House passes her bill.
Betty Cracker
In case y’all missed this from last night:
Hahaha!
Spanky
The Washington Post Editorial Board goes for the grand prize in understatement:
PenAndKey
@Immanentize: I’d love to agree with you, but you and I both know how much the Senate can muck things up. I’ll consider anything over half to be a win. I’m hopeful for more, but I don’t trust McConnell any further than I can throw him. If there’s a way to sabotage it he’ll do it out of spite alone.
@Betty Cracker: So their plan is no oversight and maximized looting. I’m glad they could clear that up for us.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
PST
This may have been discussed in a thread I missed, but I just saw it and it is one more thing driving me crazy. Rand Paul’s excuse for exposing everyone around him is that he didn’t think he would test positive because he was asymptomatic and had no known contact with anyone positive but used his position to get a test anyway because he’s special and wanted to be on the safe side. From TPM:
Words fail me. He thinks he can excuse himself for his selfish and immoral endangering of others because it only happened because of his selfishness and immorality in jumping line to take a rationed test despite not meeting the criteria being used to ration it.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
First order of business will be overseeing the changing of Mnuchin’s title to Secretary of Baksheesh.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@germy: The NYT style guide calls for using the title the first time the person is mentioned and then Mr., Mrs. Ms, after that.
He’s such an idiot. And a crybaby.
OzarkHillbilly
@ImmanentizeYou mean “WHEN the House passes her bill.”
MattF
@Dorothy A. Winsor: He wants to be a special case. And he wants all-caps and color, i.e., PRESIDENT TRUMP.
PenAndKey
@MattF: Nah, he’d settle for everyone calling him “Mr President” in reverent tones and a tear in their eye. Nothing else could possibly do.
danielx
@OzarkHillbilly:
It was 100 deaths yesterday. By next week, if not sooner, it will be 500 a day. But people’s lives are an abstraction to him – I mean, he’s the walking definition of a sociopathic narcissist, what would you?
But if/when your scenario comes to pass – and I’m afraid it will be when rather than if – it will be somebody else’s fault. Obama for choice, but somebody/anybody else will do. Because by definition, Donald Trump does not make mistakes. Therefore if bad things happen it will be because his orders were misinterpreted or bungled by lesser beings. Therefore, again, it won’t be his fault and he won’t be responsible.
I admit I’m engaging in snark, but I’m also completely serious. Shorter version: Trump doesn’t give a fuck what happens to anybody else as long as he comes out okay. Never has, never will.
Betty Cracker
As someone (Baud maybe?) noted yesterday, Biden does well in interactive settings like “The View” and town halls. Maybe he should stick to those as much as possible between now and the election. He’s not really great at speechifying, and he doesn’t have to be if it’s a referendum election, which it most definitely is.
Biden has a pretty good ad team. Maybe the campaign should use that to create explainer videos (like the one featuring Klain on C-19 the other day) to criticize Trump’s handling of the job. Meanwhile, Biden does events where he comes across as an empathetic person with a baseline of competency, which all by itself creates a gigantic contrast with Trump.
NotMax
@MatF
“Where space is a consideration, GPE* Trump is acceptable.”
*Greatest President Ever
//
danielx
@Betty Cracker:
What could possibly go wrong?
Dorothy A. Winsor
I lay awake in the night worrying about COVID19. We watched both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow and I suspect that’s what set me off. I need to do something else in the evening–read a novel or work my puzzle.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Gin & Tonic: Dude, it states right in the article that formulation is toxic to humans. The chloroquine is the active component of both the prescription medication and the fish tank cleaner, but it isn’t the only thing in either and needs to be correctly dosed. And one isn’t available for purchase without a prescription.
Even if they had a formulation fit for human consumption, say an old prescription was lying around, it should only be taken as directed by a doctor.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@MattF: @PenAndKey: “Sir” would be acceptable too.
Amir Khalid
@PST:
Rand Paul is a physician. (We may differ with him over whether he is an opthalmologist.) He of all people should know better than to make that silly argument.
danielx
Arthur Laffer is still around, and still dispensing advice. No financial help for you, proles!
“I had a very serious conversation with [President Trump] and with [top economic adviser] Larry Kudlow and with [Treasury Secretary Steve] Mnuchin as well,” relayed Art Laffer, a longtime conservative economist, who said he had three missed calls from Trump on Thursday night before the two connected. During the phone call, Laffer says he advised the president to back a payroll tax-cut waiver, to guarantee liquidity for successful companies, and that “we should not be bailing out insolvent firms right now. I also advised him against ‘helicopter money.’”
“The president understood exactly what I was saying,” Laffer said.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
OzarkHillbilly
I saw no snark in all that. I still wonder if anyone is telling him what the DJIA will look like once/if these scenarios come true.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Gin & Tonic: No, it’s not the same chemical.
They took C18H32ClN3O8P2.
The drug is C18H26ClN3.
There’s no phosphorous or oxygen in the drug.
Ohio Mom
I was able to refill my Plaquinel (brand name for Hydroxychloroquine and a lot faster to type) prescription without any trouble. I’m good for three months.
I don’t expect it to do any more than the usual, which is keep my RA in check and give me heartburn every now and again, still hunkering down at home, washing my hands like crazy, wiping down the doorknobs, etc.
PenAndKey
@OzarkHillbilly: They likely have. That’s why he’s panicking and backing out of his “pause everything” advisory just a couple days into it. The moment bad news starts, and for him that means stock market declines or insults thrown his way, he acts like a lifelong narcissistic used car salesman and tries to change the plan and deflect the blame.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Thank you. I didn’t think “fish tank cleaner is not medicine” would be a controversial statement.
MomSense
@danielx:
Hasn’t Laffer done enough damage? Does he have to insert himself in public policy again only to make things much worse?
OzarkHillbilly
@PenAndKey: Yeah a few probably have. we’ll know who when they hit the unemployment lines.
OzarkHillbilly
@MomSense: You still have some disposable income. So, no.
bk
@debbie: I remember a review of a Meat Loaf album where he was referred to as Mr. Loaf. Seriously.
MomSense
@OzarkHillbilly:
I swear that man has been ruining my personal economic situation my entire adult life.
I guess the only good news about my reduced work hours is I won’t have any disposable income for that a$$hole to mess with.
Sab
@Ohio Mom: Well that’s good news that you got your Rx. I got mine also, though it’s not as urgent.
I paid the pharmacist in cash but told him my cash had been laundered. He asked how, and then laugherd when I told him I had run it through the washer on hot with soap and then through the dryer.
PST
@danielx:
Very, very true! The original remark implicitly assumes the kind of privilege and security that make rearing of children by grandparents rare. Just think of the families of all races and ethnicity in which incarceration, addiction, the need of parents to relocate to find work, etc. put the full burden on grandparents. And I suspect there are even more families in which paying for daytime child care is an impossibility, so grandparents are sharing indispensable childcare duties. What a stupid, bigoted thing to say!
danielx
@OzarkHillbilly:
Wouldn’t matter. Foresight, long term planning, future scenarios – all foreign concepts to a man whose idea of thinking ahead extends no further than tomorrow.
Gin & Tonic
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Since I went to great lengths to avoid taking chemistry in college, I’ll take your word for it.
PST
@NotMax:
My wife had already made and frozen most of the meal to take to her elderly mother’s out of town for the seder. We ate it last night.
MomSense
@germy:
Yes.
danielx
@MomSense:
His ideas, like conservatism, cannot fail; they can only be failed. And never mind that unpleasantness in Kansas with Sam Brownback putting all his ideas into practice.
Gin & Tonic
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Dude, I’m worried you’ll strain your back moving those goalposts around. Here’s what I recommend for back pain. Unfortunately still only available in Europe, which is a little bit of a problem.
MomSense
@PST:
He’s a selfish and immoral onion- layers and layers of selfishness and immorality.
Uncle Cosmo
@Gin & Tonic: Maybe he should strike the “formerly” from his newish nym. Truth in advertising & all that.
MomSense
@danielx:
To make matters worse, his stupid idea wasn’t even original. He just managed to put it in graph form on a napkin or some such fuckery. The more honestly named “horse and sparrow” economic theory screwed my grandparents.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Gin & Tonic: Wrong again. It is available by prescription. Maybe you should take your own advice and quit while you’re behind.
joel hanes
@danielx:
It was 100 deaths yesterday
Doubling time is maybe five to six days.
The lockdown/distancing mitigations will help change that, and we should be seeing the results in a few weeks.
Still, we’re looking at 200 deaths/day on 1 Apr, probably 400/day 15 April, and a thousand per day sometime in May.
I wish we had better data on the number of people whose immunological assay shows that they’ve been infected, recovered, and sero-convert — I’d really like to see the math for the logistic curve that will result when herd immunity starts to become a significant factor. Of course, that’s all worked out (based on inadequate data) in the British report that spooked Trump into sort of behaving for a couple days, sorta.
PAM Dirac
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: The top formula is the phosphate salt of chloroquine. Generally salts have different physical properties that may or may not result in different pharmacology. Once it gets in the body, the active ingredient is the same. I spent a career working with chemical databases and there are many such databases set up such that all salts of a given parent are considered the same compound. It can cause trouble because as you note the full chemical formula is different, but since the active ingredient is identical it makes activity comparisons a bit more clear.
joel hanes
@Ohio Mom:
able to refill
All good news is welcome. I’m very glad to hear this.
Betty Cracker
@MomSense: I have a theory that throwing Laffer, Kudlow and Trump into an active volcano would eradicate the coronavirus. No data on it yet, but I feel it “very strongly” and think we should test it right away. At the very least, it would stimulate champagne sales.
PAM Dirac
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: The actual form of the drug people take is the phosphate (Aralen). There is no phosphate in the active ingredient, but there is in the medicinal formulation and apparently in the fish tank cleaner.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Showing off your understanding of the correct tense again, I see.
RobertB
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: IANA chemist, but I know there are different ways to get to a certain molecule, with different precursors. Or that the ‘leftover’ molecules could be fatal, and would need to be removed for a pharmaceutical-grade result. So the fit-for-human-consumption version can/will be made differently than the version for cleaning out your fish tank, and the differences between the two products could be (and evidently are) fatal.
Uncle Cosmo
@NotMax: I’d settle for an initial characterization of
followed by “the arsehole squatting in the White House” for all subsequent mentions.
As Sir RIngo most eloquently almost put it:
Mr. Mack
Just returned from a supply run. Adequate amounts of meat available, zero paper products. But what struck me this morning were the faces of the other shoppers. People look scared. Very few smiles, though I tried to give everyone who I locked eyes with a smile or nod. Some older man standing in front of the canned meat/soup aisle was just looking….defeated. I so wanted to ask him what he needed, but old guys can be very proud, too proud to admit they need help. I left feeling very sad.
Jeffro
@Betty Cracker: win
There’s a long list of people to toss in behind them, too
PST
@danielx: I doubt the president knows what “helicopter money” is. You have to know a little economics to have heard of that.
Immanentize
@bk: I remember that! It was famous but it was just in a headline about a movie he was in ++ maybe a joke? Who can tell with the NY Times.
Here is a good article/interview describing many of the Time’s style choices.
Including the Loaf episode. Mr. Loaf indeed!
Immanentize
@Sab:
When I was a public defender in the late 1980s it was said that a test of any paper currency would show traces of cocaine. That was a lot of rolling and snorting! But the money launderers I knew never would waste water or soap on their bills.
Stay safe!
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@PAM Dirac: I’m looking for information on other components of both products. Inactive ingredients in the oral medication and perhaps an MSDS for the fish cleaner.
Sorry if I got a bit over my skis, but I was just trying to make the point that one component of something being the same does not make them equivalent.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Immanentize: I can’t help it. I grit my teeth every time my aerobics teacher tell us to lay down on our mats.
@Mr. Mack: That does sound sad. We’re planning to go for groceries in the senior 7-9 am time slot on Thursday. I think people are worn down.
Quiltingfool
As for the stock market affecting pensions, I’d say it depends on how the folks managing the fund decided on investing strategies. I am a retired Missouri teacher, and we have some smart people managing the money. They send an email describing how this situation would affect everybody in the system, and I think they have a pretty good handle on things. We have defined benefit that is not affected by market swings, so my check doesn’t change, good economy or bad. Well, we do get COLA, but only if certain economic criteria is met. We didn’t get one this year, but last year the COLA amounted to an extra $90 in my check each month. I think the Mo teachers retirement is one of the best in the country – and they have had to fight tooth and nail to keep it out of the hands of the Mo state employees pension. I will say this, to people who think retired teachers are getting a handout; I paid 14 % (roughly) of my income into the system, more than I would have paid into social security. I didn’t pay into social security at all, but did pay about 3.5% Medicare.
Immanentize
@joel hanes:
Science is still out on that issue, I think.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
Just to be sure, we may need to throw Dimon and Blankfein in, too.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: I feel good about that plan. And it would be the first time anyone had ever tried it. The Chinese don’t think of this, hard working Americans did. It would be done like nothing ever before.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker:
It must be time for my weekly comment to say I ?Betty Cracker. I try to hold back, I really do, but some things are just not possible.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I love you truly. Don’t change, but maybe take a little lie-down occasionally?
PS. I read your blog post. I liked it a lot, all good suggestions and insights, but like the old you, I do not believe in “writer’s block.” As one author I heard read part of her novel put it — “My husband is a surgeon. He can’t just get up in the morning and say, ‘Oh no, I think I am suffering from Doctor’s block'”
jeffreyw
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: H2O and H2O2?
PAM Dirac
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
From the link for Aralen the inactive ingredients are Carnauba Wax, Colloidal Silicon Dioxide, Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Polyethylene Glycol, Polysorbate 80, Pregelatinized Starch, Sodium Starch Glycolate, Stearic Acid, Titanium Dioxide. Looks pretty standard for pills. I have no idea where to get detailed info on the fish cleaner product and I assume the oversight on exactly what goes into it is shall we say lacking. Which certainly makes it amazingly dumb to use the fish product medicinally, but the dumbness is not because the active ingredient is different.
Immanentize
Old nerd joke —
Two chemists go onto a bar, the first one says, “I’ll have a glass of H20.” The second chemist says, “I’ll have a glass of H2O too.”
And died.
OzarkHillbilly
@Immanentize: Ouch.
Uncle Cosmo
@MomSense: I agree with Laffer that we shouldn’t be throwing money from helicopters. We should hand it out on the ground to the folks that need it. And save the helicopters to carry would-be MOTUs like Laffer a few hundred feet up & then throw them out where their worthless corpses won’t hit anyone or anything of value, even if they bounce like dead cats.
MattF
@OzarkHillbilly: OTOH, I’d offer a word of caution to anyone who would frequent a bar that serves up H2O2 on request.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@PAM Dirac: Huh. Mea culpa. I was expecting that formula to be the active ingredient in the pill, not the chemical that it becomes in the body.
Had to do some digging to get to the actual formulations, but the pills do contain the phosphate. Looks like human dosage is 1g of the salt for the initial dose, and usual aquarium treatment concentration is 50/mg per gallon. The only aquarium supply store I could find that still had it listed sold it in 10g bottles. They must have mixed up a lot of it.
As a side note, I’m finding a lot of articles on how to treat chloroquine overdoses. Looks like it was popular as a suicide method at one time.
OzarkHillbilly
@MattF: Some bartenders just aim to please.
Uncle Cosmo
@Sab: We should keep in mind that the filthiest (& most germ- & virus-ridden no doubt) item most of us put our hands on regularly nearly every day is ca$h. Disinfecting that is going to be one hell of a problem.
Since copper seems to have some deleterious effect against pathogens, I wonder if a bit of proactive currency redesign might not be helpful – we might consider getting rid of pennies (as too small a unit to count, also worth more as metal than as specie) but how about recasting nickels, dimes, quarters, & even dollar coins in copper alloys? With variations in color sufficient to distinguish the various denominations, if the cupric (cuprous?) remains effective?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@PAM Dirac: The fish cleaner product is (was?) typically 95-98% pure chloroquine phosphate.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Yeah, thank you for the clarification. Sorry, again, if I got a little ahead of myself.
PAM Dirac
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Yes, keeping track of exactly what is being referenced can be a huge pain. And usually the formula for a salt is written like C18H28ClN3.2PO4 to make it clearer that there isn’t a covalant attachment. Gee, I haven’t had to deal with this is almost 2 years. I’m glad I retired :-)
Kristine
@Betty Cracker:
I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@PAM Dirac: Makes me really glad that I didn’t follow through with making this kind of thing a career. I have enough chemistry to be able to follow the real experts most of the time, but I hated organic with a passion. (And that’s only partly because the prof I had assumed we were all pre-med and hated us for it.)
PAM Dirac
Just to get on a soapbox: people should realize that lots of small details are very important when dealing with medicines. Similar to the hospital architecture post, if you have never had to deal with these details it can be tempting to think that the experts are making things more complicated than they need to be when in fact the experts are usually skeptical because they have seen things go horribly wrong when the small details aren’t attended to.
PAM Dirac
Ugggh. More bad memories :-). When I was in grad school we half seriously thought of going down to D level in the library the night before the O Chem final and yelling “Medicine had been socialized!” and seeing how many dropped out.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@PAM Dirac: Just so I can express myself better in the future, would I be safe saying that a single ingredient is not enough to identify something? That prescription meds should only be taken as prescribed?
gwangung
Actually saw some sanitizer and disinfectant wipes on the shelves this morning, in suburban Seattle. They won’t last long, but maybe we’re getting supply chains worked out?
PAM Dirac
That gets a bit complicated. At one level, the action of a drug is considered to be due to its active ingredient and only its active ingredient. When you look at the details, there are plenty of examples where formulations, pro-drugs, dosing schedules, routes of administration, etc. etc. have very significant effects on the utility of a drug. There are people on this site that will tell you all insulin is insulin, “minor” changes in the structure or formulation of a useful drug are just ploys to extend patents for no useful reason, etc. and those ideas are reasonable if ONLY the active ingredient matters, but the fact is there are many other “minor” factors that need to be dealt with. As I said in another reply, you need to pay close attention to the details. If you don’t know the details, you should be cautious about stating conclusions.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@PAM Dirac: Thank you. This is pretty much why I lean on the talk to your doctor part.
SteverinoCT
Why is this year different from all other years?