Senate passes $2 trillion coronavirus relief package in effort to address economic trauma caused by the pandemic https://t.co/E7Hp1fF3A4
— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) March 26, 2020
… The sprawling legislation, which passed 96 to 0, would send checks to more than 150 million American households, set up enormous loan programs for businesses large and small, pump billions of dollars into unemployment insurance programs, greatly boost spending on hospitals, and much more.
The Senate’s most liberal and conservative members joined together to support the mammoth spending bill, illustrating how concerned policymakers have become about the health care strains and financial pain the country now faces.
The legislation’s goal is to flood the economy with money at a time of financial near-chaos, with entire states on lockdown, many businesses closed and the numbers of infections and deaths from the coronavirus quickly on the rise.
The Senate vote sends the bill to the House, where Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) announced a vote to approve it Friday morning. President Trump said he intends to sign it immediately…
The bill would extend $1,200 to most American adults and $500 for most children, create a $500 billion lending program for businesses, cities and states, and establish a $367 billion employee retention fund for small businesses. It would direct $130 billion to hospitals and provide four months of expanded unemployment insurance, among other things.
Lawmakers and the White House were bombarded with lobbyists and special-interest groups seeking assistance during the negotiations, and the price tag rose from $850 billion to $2.2 trillion in just a matter of days.
With confirmed coronavirus cases in the United States climbing swiftly to over 67,000 Wednesday with more than 900 deaths, lawmakers acknowledged that no amount of economic relief from Congress could stop the pain for the American public. In addition to layoffs, many workers are dealing with salary reductions or furloughs. And despite Trump’s push to restart much of the economy by April 12, there are growing signs that the drag on business could last well into the second half of the year….
The legislation ensures that taxpayer-backed loans cannot go to firms controlled by Trump, other White House officials or members of Congress. That would suggest that Trump-owned properties, including hotels that have been hurt by the downturn, cannot seek taxpayer assistance….
Much more at the link — which may have been updated by the time you read this!
Also of note (if they hold to it):
An important step by broadcast news organizations tonight. MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS News, and NBC all cut away from the president’s #coronavirus press briefing tonight, realizing the misinformation could risk lives. https://t.co/fswSqoYUKn
— Dokhi Fassihian (@DokhiFassihian) March 26, 2020
Baud
But her emails!
raven
An Athens gun store owner is suing the Athens-Clarke County government over its emergency shelter-in-place ordinance, calling it “an abuse of police power.”
Lawyers for Clyde Armory owner Andrew Clyde say the ordinance violates the U.S. and state constitutions.
“There is no rational basis that requires gun stores to cease their business operations,” argue lawyers Mo Wiltshire and Kevin Epps in their brief on behalf of Clyde, filed Tuesday in Athens-Clarke County Superior Court.
debbie
@Baud:
Last night, a Fox reporter interviewing Pence interrupted him twice with questions about the President’s prioritizing the economy over public heath. It was quite a surprise.
Baud
@debbie:
How bad is Trump that he makes Pence look presidential.
debbie
@raven:
Mo Wiltshire sounds straight out of Better Call Saul.
debbie
@Baud:
It’s probably very unChristian of me to dream of adapting CRISPR against COVID-19 to use against these clowns. //
Baud
The traffic reporters on the morning news are really bored.
Baud
@debbie:
Why did I think you were Jewish?
raven
@debbie: The owner sued the feds and won a case where they confiscated his money. He’s also running for Doug Collin’s seat.
debbie
@Baud:
Because I am, lol. At least heritage-wise.
ThresherK
Before 2015 I never thought we’d need to write this down in a fcking piece of legislation, but here we are.
Dr. Ronnie James, D.O.
“MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS News, and NBC all cut away from the president’s #coronavirus press briefing tonight, realizing the misinformation could risk live.”
What a world-historical disgrace.
debbie
@raven:
These guys.
Here, they’re about to start arresting business owners violating state shutdown orders. The Lt. Gov. reminded them that their competitors were also watching and would likely be happy to report on them.
debbie
@ThresherK:
Is that in the Senate bill or part of Nancy’s proposed legislation?
John S.
@debbie: Despite Adam Silverman’s protestations otherwise (which I largely agree with), I identify the same way.
I may not adhere to the Jewish religion, but being raised in a family of a Jews (some of whom later converted to Christianity) still left some obvious cultural impressions on my psyche.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone ???
Patricia Kayden
debbie
@John S.:
I gave up trying to fight that long ago. It is simply unpossible. I may not believe, but I’m still right there at the Seder table welcoming Elijah.
OzarkHillbilly
Somebody else noted, Mississippi: Hold my beer…
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Something huge dawned on me last night during my 4 am anxiety wideawakes.
The thing that terrifies people is the ability to handle their debt – already, people are debating whether to pay the mortgage, the Citicard bill, the AMEX bill or just to hang onto their cash. Given that I heard from one of my credit lines this week about them freezing all access to all accounts pending a 3 month review, I’m suspicious that the same raters and underwriters who made 2009-2011 so miserable are out there flexing their muscles and getting ready to freeze up the credit markets in order to service an already broken system.
People need cash and certainty, and markets won’t stabilize without it.
In those circumstances, use the bankruptcy power of Congress and basically declare the jubilee. My proposed text is short and sweet:
THE JUBILEE ACT OF 2020
“With the exception of criminal restitution and funds due to any person, business entity or governmental unit pursuant to a child support order or an express or implied fiduciary duty, all non-commercial debt in existence as of the date of passage of this law, whether secured or unsecured, is hereby deemed discharged in bankruptcy. This discharge extends to personal guarantees of commercial debt.”
This frees up a ton of cash, Trump understands it and can’t really bitch about it, and it appropriately allocates the risk to who held it in the first place, as bankruptcy was always a possibility. Lenders can be backstopped by the Fed and the government – plus, it is short and sweet.
Jeffro
Dems should consider getting a party leader- not Biden, not someone currently on the short list for VP – to call a prime-time press conference of their own, pointing this out and publicly imploring the GOP to weigh in here. “It’s unprecedented that the major news networks have to cut away in order to prevent the American public from being dangerously misled by their president. Please tell your president* to quit attempting to misinform the American public about COVID-19. It will save lives.”
They almost certainly won’t do it, but that’s really not the point. Box them in. Highlight how dangerous this clown is. Heighten awareness of the need to continue social distancing.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: US gun industry groups urge lawmakers to keep gun shops open
SFAW
@debbie:
“Funny .. you don’t look Jewish”
[I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember when not-so-well-meaning goyim would say shit like that.]
rikyrah
Waiting for the unemployment claim numbers to come out. Even with these muthaphuckas ? trying to grease the skids by having GOP controlled states not report, they will still be BRUTAL ??
PenAndKey
@OzarkHillbilly: I suspect he’s well aware of the fact that the federal government has already put out a comprehensive list of businesses that meet the threshold of ‘essential services’, so we’ll see if his tune changes when the bodies start piling up in the local morgues.
danielx
Blech.
Jeffro
Btw much to my irritation, Gary Abernathy (the voice of the heartland!) has yet another stupid screed up in the WaPo op-ed pages about how Congress acting to save workers and the country means that Wilmer and AOC have finally “won”.
It’s the dumbest piece he’s written yet, and that’s saying something. But what’s notable is that he feels trumpov has caved to pressure, caved to the Left, and should have just stuck with “this is basically the flu, people” and let it ride.
Yes…Mr. Abernathy has been soooo very concerned about civil liberties in the past…<eyeroll>
They’re really going to keep pushing this “but you WANT to die for capitalism, don’t you Grandpa?” line
And yet…Easter’s coming! LOLOL
debbie
@SFAW:
Oh, I remember. The best memory I have was in NYC in the late 70s, I and a fellow non-practicer met at a local bar (Raveled Sleave to be specific) with one of our high school chums whose family was known to be rabidly anti-Semitic (even though they had converted when she was a young child). A guy comes up, a real charmer, and announces he can spot Jews by just looking at their faces. He looks at me, says nope; looks at my fellow non-practicer, says nope; then looks at the anti-Semite and proclaims she’s the Jew. She was furious, and it was all we could do not to burst out laughing.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
I feel guilty that I’m conflicted about Missholes (as opposed to Massholes) wanting to increase their own COVID deaths
PenAndKey
Works for me. It’ll absolutely piss off the bankers but this sort of thing was always part of the deal with credit. It’s a promise to repay with stipulations. They’ve just gotten too used to those stipulations being “you pay no matter what, and we ruin you if you don’t”. Lenders seem to have forgotten that it works the other way around too.
satby
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: oh, but the moral hazard! //
On a more serious note, marginal wage earners in this country worry about having enough money to feed the family and pay for a roof over their heads, either rent (most of them) or a mortgage. You learn very quickly to just ignore any other creditors, if you have any to begin with. And a huge subset is cash only, or able to get a usurious loan only.
Jinchi
@ThresherK: You know the Trump family is hard at work finding loopholes in order to get their cut anyway. Of course, they’re idiots so whatever they do will be transparently illegal, but the DOJ and Supreme Court have his back, so it probably won’t matter.
SFAW
@rikyrah:
“These numbers are a Demon-rat HOAX! Employment has never been better, thanks to Dear Leader’s actions to fix the Obummer Recession!”
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Other thoughts going forward, if you want to get markets and the economy moving again:
People 65 and older, people with pulmonary issues and a type 1 diabetics are ordered to home isolation pending a vaccine. Olds need to do their part in this in order to free up ventilators and bed space for the youngers who’ve had their financial futures derailed in service of the compromised.
Immanentize
@SFAW: but state boundaries are imaginary things. The governors who act like Mississippi’s have condemned all their neighbors too.
SFAW
@Jinchi:
Their first step will be to have Mnuchin route money to people like Tom Barrack, who will then quietly send it to Shitgibbon.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
Gin & Tonic
Ukraine closing its airspace tomorrow night. No flights in or out.
germy
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@SFAW: I can’t wait for Tom Barrack to die so that I can take a huge, steaming shit in his coffin in front of his family at the public viewing.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: I mean there is no ammo so. . .
satby
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: a lot of them already are, I and many of my friends started self isolating 11 days before the lockdown started here in IN and a week before IL. But too many people of all ages ignored the advice.
And if it gets to the point Italy did, most of my friends and I already know we would be triaged into palliative care only.
Gin & Tonic
@germy: Someone should inform him that politics ain’t beanbag.
SFAW
@Immanentize:
Yes, I know. And there are non-RWMF people in Mississippi. That’s why I’m conflicted. If I thought COVID would limit itself to RWMFs, I’d be less conflicted.
To be clear: I don’t really want people to die from this. But with RWMFs, the “you reap what you sow” sentiment sometimes tests my compassion and humanity. It’s not a good look, I know, but those mofos have done so much to destroy the country, this atheist sometimes wishes that a just God existed.
debbie
@germy:
Great ad!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@satby:
Yup – the marginals know the deal, because that has always been their lot in life (you can see it in my uncollected receivables over the years, haha). The ones who don’t know are the folks who always paid their bills on time and are rocking 780 credit scores.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: Is your son out of Ukraine?
Immanentize
@SFAW: I understand. This whole thing makes me sin against charity every waking hour. And sometimes now in my dreams as well.
germy
I thought he was still in Vermont?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZoPUQEauh0
marklar
@debbie:
Debbie and John S….Funny, your font doesn’t look Jewish. Also, you can always join the denomination I created for fellow Jewish agnostics…I call it Jewnitarian Jewniversalist!
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: No. He has decided he’s better off there than in the US.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@satby: My RWNJ mom refused to really listen to me yesterday as I told her that her unnecessary bullshit job is endangering her and my dad, and putting providers in the position of triaging on ventilators.
As I said, it is your duty as someone receiving stable, guaranteed pension, Medicare and SS money to stay home so that this doesn’t get worse, and that the people whose whole futures are derailed can get ventilators when needed.
germy
(They were advocating corona virus parties, similar to “chicken pox parties”)
catclub
@OzarkHillbilly: The constitution makes pretty clear that STATES are the sovereign unit, not cities. So in terms of law, the state is tops.
Unfortunate in many cases of federalism – applied extremely unevenly.
Amir Khalid
The President of the USA shunned as a liar. Who could have foreseen such a day?
At today’s appointment the doctor told me that the U of Malaya Medical Centre was about to be closed for the next three months to all but COVID-19 cases. The period covers a follow-up appointment in May that another UMMC clinic gave me only yesterday; so the closure was decided on late yesterday or early this morning. I wound up having a bad cash-flow day at the pharmacy: I had to pay for three months’ meds at one go. And another appointment will now have to be postponed.
On the not-so-bad side, UMMC gave me a number to call to arrange for postal delivery of meds.
The news about the strain on Indonesia’s health system worries me. We’re near enough in Malaysia to catch some of any fallout.
Immanentize
@germy: Why did you make me look at him? Without a NSFD(emocrats) warning?
OzarkHillbilly
@rikyrah: Don’t hold your breath. My NOLA son reports that Louisiana is so swamped right now that if somebody has a problem and needs help with their claim, they are only taking ph #s and promising to call back.
PenAndKey
I’m not even marginal these days, but with my wife laid off and no guarantee (yet, hopefully) of sufficient unemployment pay from the state during the shutdown I did the math and have started triaging payments. My income is enough to keep paying the mortgage, car payments, and essential utilities by itself. Until we’re back to having two incomes anyone else can get in line and recognize that they’re not getting paid until this is over. If my credit takes a beating? So be it. There are worse things. And if they push too hard to the point where I have to declare bankruptcy to wipe out the remaining debts in question I have absolutely zero qualms doing so. I’ve already got my house and two relatively new cars. I’m more than okay taking the less than 10 year hit on my credit rating at this point in my life.
Immanentize
@Gin & Tonic: . He may well be. Still, I will think and send protective thoughts his way. This must be stressful for you.
Just One More Canuck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
“We now go to Manu Raju at Tom Barrack’s funeral, where a man has been taken into custody…”
SFAW
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Please, not so huge that there’s no room left for the rest of us to do likewise.
danielx
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Take a number and get in line.
OzarkHillbilly
@catclub: IAMNAL or a Constitutional scholar but even I know this, and it is totally besides my point, which is that in certain places, the STUPID is the sovereign unit, and the intelligent are just fucked.
Chetan Murthy
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Maybe this’ll help. Hospitals are considering instituting universal DNR rules. As in: “you code, and you have covid, you -die-, right there, right then.”. She needs to make sure not to end up in the hospital, or she’s dead.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/25/coronavirus-patients-do-not-resucitate/
P.S. It goes without saying, that’s true of all of us, at this point.
germy
mrmoshpotato
@OzarkHillbilly: Brain, you are horrible and should be ashamed of yourself, I can’t believe I admit to knowing you.
Ok, here goes – M-I-S-S-I-S-S-they-all-gonna-die.
Horrible Brain, just horrible. Do you think (haha) we can charge the governor with genocide now, or do we have to wait? You think about that, and what you just did.
clay
So yesterday we got a postcard from the CDC that is basically a Trump 2020 campaign flyer. The front said in huge letters PRESIDENT TRUMP’S PLAN FOR THE CORONAVIRUS or some such, and the back listed washing your hands, not touching your face, all the usual stuff.
Has anyone else received one? It struck me as borderline illegal, with using a government agency as a reelection tool.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Just One More Canuck:
“…and he is coming out to applause….”
JAFD
Re: #20 Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
May I recommend for quarantine reading
David Graeber’s Debt: The First 5,000 Years
which covers the subject pretty thoroughly
‘Twas discussed at
http://crookedtimber.org/category/david-graeber-debt-seminar
and, at that noteworthy blog, you may want to checkout
http://crookedtimber.org/2020/03/21/free-readings/#comments
Happy Thor’s Day, everyone ! (and only nine months till Boxing Day)
raven
@clay: Pence is always holding it up to the camera.
mrmoshpotato
@Jeffro: My vote is for Sen. Duckwörth to take it to the GrOPers and Cadet Bone Spurs.
clay
@raven: He’s very well trained, isn’t he?
Amir Khalid
@clay:
Trump clearly thinks that being elected President means he won ownership of the US Government.
germy
@PenAndKey:
The Two Income Trap
germy
@Immanentize: I agree with what he’s saying. I just don’t like him.
Another Scott
‘morning everyone.
https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2020/03/weekly-initial-unemployment-claims_26.html
Hang on, everyone. It’s going to get worse and be bad for a while. We’ll get through this.
Cheers,
Scott.
PenAndKey
@germy: Also known as “The default way the US economy has worked longer than I’ve been alive”. Part of the biggest reason I’ve been a major fan of Warren for years is her work on Two Income Trap and All Your Worth. As far as I’m concerned they should both be mandatory reading in every economics class in the country.
mrmoshpotato
@Immanentize:
Airdrop a bunch of Amontillado?
Quinerly
@clay: I got one.
Steeplejack (phone)
Home-schooling days:
Just One More Canuck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: “GoFundMe reports the largest amount donated to a single cause”
OzarkHillbilly
Parson requests federal disaster declaration
What a bunch of
pussiesRINOs.The truth is for a Republican, Parson has turned out to be surprisingly persuadable by reality. A big improvement over our previous
governorfuture presidential candidate.Spanky
@clay: I did. It’s from the CDC & HHS as well as the White House. Granted, it only goes over the well-known strategies for protection, but it struck me as the best the CDC could do with Trump in charge to get some facts out. Also, it points to coronavirus.gov, which is definitely more CDC than WH, although a certain fealty must be paid, no doubt in order to put anything out.
mrmoshpotato
@Gin & Tonic: Will they be punting all of the Russki invaders too?
Chetan Murthy
@Just One More Canuck: What’s the worst you could get? Disorderly conduct? Desecrating a corpse? Can’t be more than misdemeanors.
patrick II
Illustrating how concerned policymakers have become about the health care strains and financial pain when there is a Republican in the White House.
germy
@PenAndKey: You must be younger than me. My father worked a blue collar job while my mother stayed home. His salary was small, but they owned their own home, paid it off, and paid their bills. 1950-1980. By the time the Reagan shitshow started, their mortgage was paid off and they were saving a little money.
SFAW
@Another Scott:
Thanks, Obama?
Mr. Mack
This isn’t popular, but it’s important: Child support collection in this country is crippling the workforce. When I was General Manager for a large company here in Nashville, I decided to go to the local trade school to look for potential new employees. The Administrator took me into a conference room, with a white board that had roughly a hundred names of those about to graduate. Next to each name was a space for an asterisk. When I inquired about it, she said “an asterisk means they have a driver’s license.” Of the nearly one hundred names…there were four with the asterisk. I can’t hire guys without a DL. Good workers, honest guys trying to raise their new families and willing to pay in to helping their former families could fall short when an unexpected expense hit them, some of my best guys were in and out of jail behind these draconian collection practices.
You can’t legislate morality.
mrmoshpotato
@clay:
Yeah. I got one too yesterday, swore, and said I’m listening to my Democratic governor and Democratic mayor.
PenAndKey
@germy: Yup, at 35 I’m a young pup compared to most of you grey haired jackals. I was born right in the middle of the Reagan presidency so my entire life has been shaped by the policies he and the GOP have pushed through since then. If anyone asks it’s a major reason I despise the entire party and, in the words of Cole, would willingly crawl over broken glass to vote for whoever has the best chance to kick them out of power.
Another Scott
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/03/26/a-long-term-plan-to-save-the-economy-from-coronavirus/
“We’re all Keynesians now!!”
Seriously, money is free. The markets are saying that there isn’t enough demand in the economy (that’s why interest rates have been so low for so long). Spend the money. Save lives. Save jobs. Save our future.
The path forward is obvious. But Moscow Mitch and the rest of the Teabaggers will find some way to deviate from the obvious path to protect their cronies while making the rest of us suffer. Grrr…
We have to vote the monsters out. Things won’t get better until we do. Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
I saw Pelosi on the PBS News Hour last night.
Judy Woodruff told her Republicans objected to the extra unemployment payments, because they feared low-wage people would decide it was more profitable to quit their jobs and then collect Unemployment because it paid more.
Pelosi looked at Woodruff almost in disbelief and reminded her that a person can’t simply quit their job and then get Unemployment. They would have to be either fired or laid off.
And then we watched Inside Edition, and they interview a woman (fox network business advisor) who gave advice on how viewers could cope with financial challenges. She said we could take up to $100,000 out of our 401Ks.
Allrighty then. I’m beginning to suspect our media elites don’t really understand our actual… circumstances.
mrmoshpotato
@Chetan Murthy:
I believe the charge is Defecating a corpse!
Thank you. Veal is also good for breakfast, ya know.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@clay:
We got one too. I don’t what it said on the back because I saw the mention of Trump on the front and threw it straight in the trash.
prostratedragon
@OzarkHillbilly:
Problem in network flow with a bottleneck?
germy
germy
@Dorothy A. Winsor: If I get one, I think I’ll put it somewhere for safekeeping. If enough people tear it up in disgust, then someday it may be a rare collectible my grandchildren can display at Antiques Roadshow.
prostratedragon
@mrmoshpotato:
Followed immediately by loads of bricks.
Omnes Omnibus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Perhaps you shouldn’t judge the elderly based on your personal interactions with your parent. My anecdata says the elderly are sheltering in place with a good six weeks worth of groceries and only going out to get the mail (after which hands are thoroughly washed). Stop being a selfish asshole.
SFAW
@prostratedragon:
For the love of God, prostratedragon!
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
I think Le Comte was talking about his mother, and persons like her who are semi-blithely ignoring the warnings/guidelines, not applying it to the entire old fart demographic.
satby
@Mr. Mack: not honest guys if they were trying to work off the books to hide income. What utter bullshit. Child support enforcement in this country has always been far from “draconian” and often barely enforced at all. And if they don’t want to support their original children, they have no business starting another family. Fuck that complete line of horseshit.
mrmoshpotato
@SFAW: God loves cement – and masonry trowels.
SFAW
@satby:
Oh, come on. We haven’t had a good MRA discussion in awhile. It’s a topic just begging to be
ignoreddiscussed seriouslyO. Felix Culpa
@satby:
Once more, for the bleachers.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: Based on his recent output, I beg to differ.
SFAW
@mrmoshpotato:
If I thought we could wall off/in all the RWMFs in that manner, I’d go out and “re-skill” as a bricklayer/mason ASAP. I might even learn Latin.*
*Nemo me impune lacessit, of course.
Mr. Mack
@satby: Except that they were not trying to work off the books. We never paid anyone under the table, not even our subs. Every single contractor I know is hurting for help, and to a man they agree that over-reaching collection efforts have diluted the worker pool. By the way, the collection system for student loan debt is a close second.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Since I’ve been here only sporadically of late, I can’t comment intelligently on that. [“So what else is new?”] I still see his comment as a “point solution” so to speak, but won’t die on that hill.
ETA: By the way, how are things in CheeseHead land these days, and how are you doing?
Mr. Mack
I want to know how it helps to incarcerate someone who is unable to meet the demands of court ordered support? How does it help to take away his driver’s license? Don’t confuse unwilling with unable. Two very different mindsets, and a one size fits all collection system hurts more than it helps.
SFAW
@Mr. Mack:
OK, we got it the first two times.
Chetan Murthy
@Mr. Mack:
That’s a real tell there. And collection efforts are only “over-reaching” when father’s don’t support their children. Also, conflating student loan debt with child support obligations is …. misleading at best. Until this country does something about social support for children, it’s up to -families- to support them, and a father who doesn’t support his children is leaving them to suffer. There is no comparison to student debt, where the creditor is either the government or some mass of investors.
These men need to grow the fuck up and support their children.
And as I said, it’s a real tell, that these contractors are men. [rhetorical question]I wonder what women think.
SFAW
@Chetan Murthy:
“Who cares? They’re the ones screwing over their exes, just so they can go out clubbing with the CS money.”
— MRA “argument” #42
Mr. Mack
Last comment on this issue: My right hand guy here on the farm was driving home when he was stopped for a broken tail light. They found a warrant for 800 dollars in child support, so they arrested him. He was in jail for 12 days. I could not even bail him out. He is a very honest, hard-working guy who I trust completely. By the way, at the time of his arrest? His children were in the forties. FORTIES.
O. Felix Culpa
@Chetan Murthy: Women have said what they think: this whining about the poor, poor men who are cruelly *forced* to support THEIR OWN CHILDREN is horseshit.
O. Felix Culpa
Not if he has welched on supporting his children, he isn’t. Stop digging.
Mr. Mack
@SFAW: I think I’d appreciate it if you didn’t attempt to stifle me when I want to make a point. I have been a polite commenter on this blog for many years. If you don’t like the argument, rebut.
SFAW
@Mr. Mack:
Who apparently can’t set aside $40 per year* to pay off his child-support debt.
*Kids are allegedly in their 40s, I’m guessing CS for non-disabled offspring ends at age 21, $800/20 years = $40 per year.
Mr. Mack
@O. Felix Culpa: Can you not read? It was 800 dollars from back in the seventies that he did not realizre he owed. He dutifully paid his support for nearly 15 years. I know his story, you do not. Painting every guy who gets behind on support with the deadbeat dad brush is unfair.
SFAW
@Mr. Mack:
Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion. Also, please note my comment at #119, re: the allegedly honest and hard-working nature.
ETA: And re: the “he did not realizre he owed” comment: did he suddenly move and leave no forwarding address, nor tell anybody where he was going? Because I have a hard time believing that his lack of awareness came about as if by magic.
Chetan Murthy
@Mr. Mack:
Couldn’t have been -very- honest: he welshed on his obligations to his minor children. So the state came after him for it much later. IIUC, that’s partly b/c the state has to make up some of that money, and they want it back. Now, maybe you want to construct an entire system of support for single mothers and their children, so that they won’t suffer. Have. At. It. But don’t complain about poor put-upon men.
Yeah, I used to read Warren Farrell. I have copies of WMATWTA and The Myth of Male Power. Yeah yeah yeah. It’s all bullshit. There is a -distribution- of outcomes for men, and for women. And it’s clear the median outcome for women in our society, in many, many measures, is worse than for men. So yeah, some bad-luck guy got it real bad. For every one of them, there are more women who got it worse. You don’t make public policy based on anecdotes — you use -data-. And the data show that men walk away, and women care for their children without support.
satby
@Mr. Mack: child support doesn’t expire. And sorry, but “honest” guys don’t skip out on their kids. $800? He couldn’t have paid that amount over 30 or so years of earnings? Bullshit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mr. Mack: I bet he is not being asked to support his kids into their 40s. I bet he still owes from before they were 18. Want to take that bet?
Mr. Mack
@Chetan Murthy: Nope, not a gender issue. As more and more women enter the workforce they too will be expected to pay child-support. The same rules apply. I just happened to work in a mostly male dominated field…but even that is changing.
O. Felix Culpa
@Mr. Mack: I can read very well, thank you, and subsequent commenters have addressed the issue that I could read into and you, apparently, prefer not to.
Mr. Mack
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes he did. It was an old amount that he didn’t realize he owed. I paid it off for him, and he insisted on working off the debt even when I told him not to worry about it. My point is, and was, that incarcerating him for nearly two weeks is excessive for an obvious over-sight. He was not a dead beat dad. He is a good man, who still does without things while he helps his adult children.
Chetan Murthy
@Mr. Mack:
That sort of assumes that fathers take primary custody responsibility. Which …. well, color me skeptical about that one. Single mothers enter the workforce and take care of their kids, b/c many fathers don’t do shit…. and they’ve been doing that for generations at all levels of the socioeconomic hierarchy. Maybe in another generation things’ll change, who knows.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Based on the response you just got, I’m wondering if we should ask the Holy Father if he can elevate that honest, hard-working man to sainthood.
Mr. Mack
@Chetan Murthy: I am completely unaware of those books. I am not on this soapbox for no reason. It was mentioned above that child support obligations not be included in the “Jubilee.” This struck me as unfair, given that we throw guys in jail for lack of payment. If we just trashed their credit or dunned them when they earned I’d have no issue whatsoever.
Incarceration is a serious thing.
Fair Economist
Fine, fine, I’ll support pie deliveries to people who don’t pay child support.
Fair Economist
Great, now I’m hungry :-/
Chetan Murthy
@Mr. Mack:
There’s an old saying: “parents will go to incredible lengths to ensure their children are housed, clothed, and fed”. Turns out, this is important, b/c human children are much more defenseless than other mammal young. Many developmental biologists deem the first 9mos of infancy as a “second half” of gestation, b/c the infant is -so- helpless at birth.
There’s a reason that society comes down hard on fathers who welsh on their support obligations: children need to be fed -today-, not next week, not next month, not next year when I have a better job and my car’s paid off. TODAY, they need to be fed.
This “honest hard-working man” forgot about that — and somebody else had to pick up the slack for him. And then he didn’t inquire and get caught-up. Now maybe it was all innocent. But the evidence is that by and large, it’s not innocent: men just walk out on their obligations, and women have to pick up that slack.
SFAW
@Fair Economist:
Hey, it’s your own damn fault — nobody forced you into pieing anyone.
SFAW
@Chetan Murthy:
Ya know, I’m getting really effing tired of you bringing reality into this “argument.”
germy
@Mr. Mack:
It seems “lock ’em up!” is the United States motto. If they sit in jail, their earning capability reverts to zero. The punishment for deadbeat dads should be wage garnishment or some other asset seizure, including property.
A driver’s license is necessary in most parts of the country where public transit is lacking. Take it away, and the deadbeat dads can’t drive to work, and if their jobs are in delivery, they can’t work at all.
It would seem the solution should be taking their money so their debts can be paid, rather than making it impossible for them to pay their debts.
O. Felix Culpa
@Chetan Murthy: Thank you.
germy
And the children suffer.
And it isn’t just a “blue collar joe” issue. I’ve read about wealthy republican politicians who have avoided paying child support. Some men let resentment get in the way of fulfilling their responsibilities.
Jeffro
@mrmoshpotato: I think she’s a great choice to do it.
(she’s also on my short list for VP)
O. Felix Culpa
Having managed payroll, I can tell you that garnishment is a commonly used recourse, but if *honest* men somehow have no idea that they owe child support and somehow slip through the cracks, then what? I am not arguing for incarceration – I agree with Mr. Mack that it can be counterproductive – but we do need some teeth for enforcement for these honest men who mysteriously over the course of years are unaware of their obligations to their children.
Chetan Murthy
@O. Felix Culpa:
And who among us has not completely forgotten the existence of at least one chlid? Amrite? amirite?
germy
@O. Felix Culpa: Property seizure could focus a deadbeat dad’s attention.
But if cars and trucks are seized, it again becomes counter productive. And some of the blue collar guys, their truck is their biggest asset.
germy
@Chetan Murthy: Trump.
Chetan Murthy
@germy: Ba-dum-tssssss!
O. Felix Culpa
@germy: Vasectomies? /
NotMax
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
IIRC Jefferson advocated canceling all debt every 19 years (his determination of once each generation).
Omnes Omnibus
Are the child support enforcement mechanisms in the various states unwieldy? Almost certainly. Unfortunately, that is a direct result of needing to involve the court system in the process. Most men support their children and don’t get entangled with the enforcement side of child support. So we are really dealing with a small percentage of fathers. Why aren’t they paying? Income changed? You can go to court and change the amount you are required to pay. I am not particularly sympathetic here. You fathered a child, support it.
germy
@NotMax: He must have owed money!
Mr. Mack
@germy: Thank you for the reasoned response.
Look, I am not an advocate on this issue, but I have seen it’s effects and I can tell you that it often unfairly applied. I am certainly not saying that a man (or woman) should not support their offspring. I really didn’t appreciate my arguments being twisted into some kind of resentful male’s spouting off about how men have no rights.
I am, even after years here, somewhat shocked how so many of us feel so morally superior in our beliefs that we can’t even stomach an opposing viewpoint.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mr. Mack: You said in your first comment on this topic that you knew it wasn’t going to be popular. Don’t then play shocked when your viewpoint gets push back.
satby
@Mr. Mack: well at least 2-3 of the people answering you have been on the receiving end of a guy declining to support his children. So nope, no sympathy.
Wanna know who REALLY has no sympathy for deadbeats? Their children, especially the ones who grow up with completely absent fathers because the guy prioritized his bank account over even seeing them to better avoid the consequences of their lack of support. So go find other shoulders to sob your manly tears on.
Mr. Mack
@Omnes Omnibus: Fair enough. But I’m not some random troll who parachuted in here to push an agenda. Push back is fine, welcome even. The dismissive or derisive comments were unnecessary to a discussion on the matter, and it’s a bad habit here.
Emma from FL
@Mr. Mack: They’re actually trying to keep kids from starving. I am all for government assistance to children — in fact, I think they should be expanded European style — but if you have a child, they are your responsibility. I have seen women near suicidal trying to keep a roof over their kid’s head while Daddy bitches about having to pay bare subsistence amounts.
Another Scott
@satby: My mom spent some time in jail because she wrote a bad check because she didn’t have enough money to support us when we were little.
Yeah, I don’t have much sympathy for men who don’t pay their child support, for whatever reason. It’s almost always worse for the woman and the children.
Yes, there are always corner-cases, but they’re rare.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mr. Mack: Yes, it is true that everyone can calmly and rationally talk about how they raised kids without any support from absent fathers. I have a fun idea; let’s do abortion or rape next. Hot button issues are hot button issues for a reason. Don’t play the ingenue.
Mr. Mack
@satby: Whoa, slow down. Tell me a little more about how responsibility works? You mean it’s not okay to drive a Cadillac and vacation in the Bahamas instead of paying support?
Not looking for sympathy. Looking for smart, workable policy solutions that don’t jail people who are not violent.
Parfigliano
@clay: In Roswell NM got one of those CDC-TRUMP things yesterday.
Mr. Mack
@Omnes Omnibus: Thread is mercifully dead by now, but I have to ask. Who gets to decide? I have hot button issues too, but I don’t expect the world to walk on eggshells around me when discussing it.
But sure, abortion and rape would be a hoot. FFS.
joel hanes
@germy:
I think I’ve read, last time this came up, that CPAP users such as myself should take particular care never to get exposed — that it may increase the chance of the infection progressing to a serious case.
I can offer no evidence, so cum grano salis, but it can’t hurt to be more careful.
joel hanes
@JAFD:
for quarantine reading
My family are all reading Larson’s _The_Splendid_And_The_Vile_, a recounting of Churchill’s life and leadership during WWII
The parallels between the character of Goering as described by Larson, and the character of the man currently defiling the Oval Office, are unmistakable — the differences being that Goering was not abysmally ignorant, nor was he completely incompetent. But the sociopathy, the narcissism, the avarice, the lying, the obsession with gold trim and spectacle, the reliance on self-congratulatory delusion, are all there.
SFAW
@Mr. Mack:
And yet, here we are
catclub
@SFAW: contrast him with Mark Cuban:
joel hanes
@SFAW:
Yes. For the love of God.
[finishes bricklaying to seal McConnell and Trump into small crypt]
SFAW
@satby:
I think you’re being unfair. I mean, how was that honest, hard-working man to know that he owed money on his child support obligation? It’s not as if there was/were any mechanism(s) to let him know that he owed money to feed/house/clothe his kids.
And, no doubt, his shrill harpy of an ex-wife would not tell him, just so it could be sprung on him 40 years later, and really fuck up his life in the 2020s.
Wait … was I being derisive? Damn, sorry for that.
joel hanes
@Mr. Mack:
to a man they agree that over-reaching collection efforts have diluted the worker pool.
To a man you can fuck right off. I’ve raised three children whose fathers could not be arsed to contribute to their upbringing. At all. Not one dollar after the first couple years.
Miss Bianca
@JAFD: I stopped checking out Crooked Timber when they went full Clinton Derangement Syndrome back in ’16.
SFAW
@joel hanes:
I suppose it makes me a bad person for hoping for just such an event.
SFAW
@catclub:
From what I hear, Cuban is (or can be) somewhat of an asshole. On the other hand, he seems to have his head screwed on right vis-a-vis the Liar-in-Chief and Rethugs in general.
J R in WV
@OzarkHillbilly:
We already knew that many in the gun industry are nakedly fond of killers… this is merely more proof, as if we needed any.
Here locally we have both responsible gun shop owners, and not so much responsibility gun shop owners.
Edit to fix quote block, which seems to do this all the time, quote the whole comment!
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
This article lays out a good plan… but I have a problem here:
If there are “roads, bridges and airports” included, they need to specify how much $$ for each class of reconstruction, else the whole boatload will be spent on roads, bridges and airports, when what really needs fixing is the rest of the things on that list, plus fresh water supply systems, which are in as bad a shape as the waste systems.
The power grid was built mostly by the federal new deal Rural Electrification Corporation, for which my first foreman worked after he got out of the military after WW II. Rural houses (at least in WV, and I expect in lots of places in the rest of the country) still used kerosene lamps and had no electric whatsoever during and after WW II.
Then it was given to private industry after all of it was built out. We should take it back if private industry isn’t willing to invest what it takes to keep it properly maintained and modernized. And no, we shouldn’t pay them for it, we’re confiscating their assets for non-performance!
J R in WV
@Mr. Mack:
So 30 years before this event, back when $800 was real money, this “honest hard-working guy” stiffed his kids for a fortune in child support? And continued to stiff those kids for another several decades?
Methinks your idea of honest is way different from mine, wherein an honest father pays to support his kids. Deserved every second in jail. That money could have kept his kids fed and warm.
barbequebob
@clay: Yes, when I flipped it over it read “Follow my advice and die”
Ruckus
@raven:
If everyone is staying inside and their store is closed, who are they going to shoot?
Ruckus
@germy:
I am going to repeat several suggestions, some I’ve taken up, that it gets retweeted by everyone.
His own words in public, of the president, how can those be protected speech?
Ruckus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Welcome to my world.
This is my second week, I talked to my boss, told him that I planned to stay home and away from people for the foreseeable future. He understood and told me my job was waiting. I go to the grocery store only when I half to.
Ruckus
@PenAndKey:
In some ways it’s refreshing to get off the credit merry go-round.
You don’t realize it at first but after a while it becomes normal to only buy things you can pay cash or use a debt card for. And my bank has a very low limit on your daily debit card limit no matter your balance. No exceptions. My last bank had that but would wave it for reasonable exceptions. This is better. My debit card can not even be used with Apple Pay. When Target was invaded by credit info assholes a while back, my bank immediately stopped and reissued all debt and credit cards. I like my bank. It’s not like Bunch of Assholes or We’ll Fuck you banks, whose only goals seem to be holding your money as long as possible and only letting you visit it once in a while.
Jerzy Russian
@clay: Very late to the thread, but I also got one a few days ago. Pissed me off.