In the wake of the primary outcome, I’ve comforted my disgruntled Bernie and Warren peeps by noting that Joe Biden isn’t an ideologue. He’s been at the center of the Democratic Party consensus since dudes wore plaid polyester pants and long sideburns unironically. And sometimes, Biden senses emerging consensus and helps nudge the party in that direction, as when he seemed a bit ahead of President Obama on the marriage equality issue.
As the pandemic lays bare the horrid inequities that lurked beneath the surface of American life forever and spiked in the post-Reagan years, Biden is again embodying the party consensus, promoting some bold proposals that reflect shifting priorities. Here’s an excerpt from a recent Vox report:
Joe Biden said that the economic challenge presented by the coronavirus pandemic will be “the biggest challenge in modern history,” in an interview Tuesday evening with CNN’s Chris Cuomo.
Biden’s comments came in response to a question from Cuomo about what kind of economy the former vice president would face if he wins the White House in November’s general election.
“I think it’s going to, it may not dwarf, but eclipse what [Franklin Delano Roosevelt] faced,” he said. “We have an opportunity, Chris, to do so many things now to change some of the structural things that are wrong, some of the structural things we couldn’t get anyone’s attention on.”
The comments were somewhat of a departure for Biden, who has positioned his campaign as a way to return to normal after the Trump years. He was not the candidate of “big structural change,” a message more likely to be found coming from his former primary rival, Sen. Bernie Sanders, who announced Wednesday he was suspending his campaign. But the pandemic and the resulting economic collapse have become an opportunity for the Biden campaign to reset its messaging.
I’ll note with irritation that “big structural change” was Warren’s campaign catch-phrase, not Sanders’, but aside from that, the Vox assessment is bang-on. The next day, Biden published two proposals that represent significant structural change, via a Medium post:
Recovery will require long term changes to build a more inclusive and more resilient middle class, and a greener and more resilient economy. We have to think big — as big as the challenges we face. As we start to lay the groundwork for recovery, we have to build back better for the future.
So, as the next step in building on the progressive vision for the country that I have laid out across the course of my campaign, today I’m announcing my intention to fight for two new policies that I believe will not only help people right now when they may need the help most, but will also help people find more secure footing in the long term once we have emerged from this crisis. The first is lowering the Medicare eligibility age to 60, and the second is forgiving student debt for low-income and middle class people who have attended public colleges and universities.
Bravo. Even if Trump hadn’t bungled the pandemic response so catastrophically that tens of thousands are physically endangered and tens of millions face financial devastation, a Biden administration’s priorities were always going to be to the left of previous Democratic Party platforms because the party has moved in a more progressive direction.
Trump’s colossal incompetence and kleptocratic instincts are revealing the dangerous fallacy at the heart of Republican conceit about “small government” in real time. “Fiscal prudence” and “personal responsibility” were always a scam to disguise the instinct to strip government protection from regular people and maintain white supremacy while rigging the rules of capitalism to benefit cronies and enable Republican donors to loot the Treasury.
It would be fitting if crude, bigoted scammer Donald Trump and his gang of halfwit hucksters indelibly underscore the “CON” in conservatism for a generation. It would be a parallel irony if Joe Biden, founding member of the DLC, thoroughly squashes the Reagan mythos and wrenches his party back to its FDR roots with big structural change that is equal to the moment. It would require an electoral drubbing for Trump’s Republicans, and by dog, they’ve earned it. Now we have to give it to them.
schrodingers_cat
What exactly does big structural change mean? This slogan was a clunker for EW who finished 3rd in the state where she is a sitting senator. Let me burst your progressive bubble, most people are exhausted and just want to go back to the time when they didn’t wake up 5 times every night wondering what the deranged moron in the WH had done while they were asleep. They lack the stomach for a “big” change.
syphonblue
Actually I would like both. We’re a big country, we can do more than just “go back to normal”.
Another Scott
Yeah, he’s been out there helping to push important ideas for a while.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-congress/senate-bill/2891
It’s not a My Way or the Highway bill, but it would have been a very, big f*ing deal, important start in addressing the problems.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@syphonblue: Both things can be done at one time. Biden can go back to the Presidency performing its normal role and neither going beyond it nor failing to do things within his power. At the same time, a new Democratic majority can work to fix a lot of gaps in the system as well as fixing the stuff that the GOP intentionally smashed.
Baud
I tried to confirm this claim. I found this Daily Kos diary:
But the only support provided was this wiki entry:
The wiki entry on the DLC says it had 43 elected officials as founders, but it doesn’t name them all.
schrodingers_cat
Let me clarify that I am not against these policies or a return to Keynesian macroeconomics guiding policy decisions. But right now there is absolutely no reason for the overwhelming winner to adopt the language that attracted few voters even in the Democratic primary.
p.a.
The cvid world has exposed what in another time was called by Michael Harrington The Other America, the have-mosts, the have (tenuously) some, and the have-nots, with the latter 2 manning the frontlines of the cvid defense.
American attention span being notably short, progressives of whatever degree have to demand as an absolute nevessity free and fair elections (access too) and counting well before November, and while the public is in a positive disposition towards social justice. Before a return to complacency where concerns focus on the next Who’s Got Talent competition.
Unlike the pre-Nixon admin ’60’s, the revanchists have major mouthpieces in media, politics, and the courts, to endanger any progressive endeavours even with Dem electoral victories. Winning won’t be enough.
Cheryl Rofer
At this point, it’s kind of silly to fight over words, although I am sure that the folks who felt it important yesterday to publicly not endorse Biden, for a few, will continue to do that.
At this point, what even is “big structural change”? People would like a world in which they can go back to work and do the things they did before COVID-19, although I think most of us recognize that’s not coming back for a long time. You may not be interested in big structural change, but big structural change is interested in you.
It’s hard to believe that Joe Biden has survived in politics this long by being an ideologue, and his record supports that he isn’t. He’s genuinely interested in helping people and wants the policies that will do that.
So let’s talk about the policies that we need to get out of this pandemic and what we can do to make American society more robust afterwards. Without words that are intended to beat the other side (whoever that may be) over the head.
Tdjr
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t know about that. After all the bullshit we’ve been through in the last 4 (or more) years, I think lots of people are ready for big changes (for the better).
Splitting Image
To be honest, there is only one big structural change that needs to be made in response to the pandemic: preparing for a disaster which may not happen in the current fiscal year needs to become standard policy again.
There was a time when both governments and businesses saw the need to balance short-term profitability with long-term survival. Since Reagan took office, business leaders have completely abandoned any pretense of caring about the long-term interests of the corporations they lead, never mind their workers, their customers, or the society in which they exist. As business leaders wormed their way into government, this became the mantra of government too. I’ll be gone; you’ll be gone. Why worry about it?
This has to change. And quickly. Trump is an order of magnitude worse than any other world leader, but every other government is fighting the same problem: years of previous governments not stockpiling medical equipment which would be helpful in a pandemic because they’ve all been betting that the disaster, when it comes, will likely not happen until someone else has taken charge. Might as well zero out the budget for preparation, hand out some tax cuts, and take credit for eliminating “waste”. When the disaster eventually comes, just wash your hands of the entire thing and say “I take no responsibility”.
Josie
@p.a.:
Yes, voting rights issues should be first on any new agenda. It’s the key to positive change.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: What in the linked article or BC’s post made you think that Biden is planning on campaigning on the idea of structural changes? As I see it, BC is talking about a way to reach out to lefty voters – a way to point out to them that Biden is not the neoliberal shill of their nightmares. I don’t have a problem with Biden and I never really have, so arguments like this aren’t intended for me. Nor, it seems, are they intended for you. That does not make them invalid or ineffective.
negative 1
Both of these are great ideas aimed squarely at the voting bloc he’s trying to peel away from Trump. This is where being a smart, experienced politician (and nominating one) pays dividends.
Amir Khalid
@Omnes Omnibus:
As Obama The Wise once said, the President has to be able to do more than one thing at a time.
Honus
@Omnes Omnibus:yes, that “we just need somebody in the Oval Office who can use a pen” thing can work both way.
Belafon
@schrodingers_cat:
Sanders was never going to attract a lot of us that have been in the party he has been attacking for a long time. As for Warren, she had a lot of support up because of her plans, but I think Sanders winning contests cost her.
Biden’s big ideas are party ideas. I don’t see any of them as truly radical for the party.
JPL
Last week, I believe it was Betty who linked to the Fran Leibowitz interview. She was not a supporter of Biden’s since the Clarence Thomas hearings, but was quite excited when Biden started winning primaries. We need to win in November, not only because the republican policies are harmful to the nation, but because trump is bat shit insane.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Appeasing people who are trending how Biden is a rapist and who wanted everyone else to bend the knee when BS barely won NH with 25%, is not going to win them over but it could alienate people who don’t want a “revolution” or its milk toast cousin the “big structural change”.
schrodingers_cat
@Belafon: She had lot of support on BJ and demographic it mostly represents, but on the ground not so much. 5th in SC and 3rd in MA is not a lot of support.
MattF
WaPo: Multiple tornadoes sweeping through the South have led the Weather Service to declare a rare ‘tornado emergency’ which occurs when an ordinary ‘tornado warning’ isn’t sufficient.
Biden is right about our needs, but I’m wary about dealing with them via executive power, given, e.g., the current administration. We need democratization. I’ve been reading lately about the French Revolution, so the idea of starting with a blank page is not so appealing. No, I don’t have the answer.
raven
@MattF: Swept
schrodingers_cat
@MattF: We need to win the Senate so McConnell will no longer be the senate majority leader.
low-tech cyclist
I hope that Biden sees and takes advantage of the possibility of major structural change. But the two examples here, while in the right direction, are really weak tea, IMHO.
Lowering the Medicare age to 60 is great…as a first step. If this is being done with an eye to continuing to lower the Medicare age over time, then that’s a first step I can get behind. But if this is intended as a one-and-done proposal, then it really IS weak tea.
And I’m all for forgiving student debt for students who’ve attended public colleges and universities. But why not make it universal, rather than means-testing it? The higher up the income ladder one goes, the more likely the parents are to send their kids to private colleges: they’re shooting for Dartmouth and Oberlin, not U.Va. or U.Mich.
So the added cost of making it universal can’t be all that great, and you get the benefit of the much stronger support that programs get by being universal rather than a program that upper middle class folks who reliably vote won’t support because it’s got nothing to do with them.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
We need to win in November because 4 more years of Trump will kill even more of us than it already is.
We need to win big in November and we need to work on ANY Senate (or House) seat that can be flipped, any Governorship that can be flipped. Any state house seat or school board seat that can be flipped. The Presidency is important but it is not the only thing we need to work on. All the down ballot stuff is equally important. We need more Dems because amoungst other things, abortion right in this country are evaporating as we speak.
I want a Dem in the White House so Trump doesn’t get to replace any more judges.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Also, defeat McConnell in KY.
low-tech cyclist
He’ll be all but the majority leader as long as the filibuster remains.
West of the Cascades
Wouldn’t it effectively be a “big structural change” if the federal government, and programs it runs to promote the welfare of Americans, actually operated as they were meant to? That alone would be a big change from the current administration. “Government … for the people” wasn’t meant to perish because of Trump.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Yes indeed.
raven
@low-tech cyclist: I don’t think that is true at all. The University of Georgia is chocked full of rich suburban Atlanta kids who, because of the horseshit structure of the “Hope Scholarship” slide by on their tuition while poor kids can’t use it because of their grades.
L85NJGT
@Baud:
Gore was the greenest major party candidate we’ll see in our lifetimes. It’s likely that his commitment to cleaning up the Everglades cost him that election.
Anti-neoliberalism is ahistoric wanking. Just look at Clinton’s electoral maps. The south was still largely electing conservative, but not crazy Democrats. I’m not sure what fantasy leftist electorate a Democratic pol was supposed to turn to circa 1988.
schrodingers_cat
@West of the Cascades: Yes yes it will be. A D back in the WH will be structural change.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
Meanwhile, and forgive me if this has already be posted in another thread, a sailor from the USS Theodore Roosevelt who was evacuated to the Guam Navy Hospital because they had COVID-19, has died. As of Sunday night there were 585 positive COVID-19 cases among the crew from the Roosevelt.
Baud
If we want to be pedantic, I don’t think forgiving existing student debt, however worthwhile, is a “structural change.”
jl
Promising signs from Biden. Glad to see them. Sounds like building strong bridge to place between Warren and Sanders camps. Good place to start uniting various wings of the Democrats.
A Ghost to Most
I’m not sure there’s an old normal to return to. We are going to need big changes, including large clawbacks of funds from the greedos, to get to a new normal. What better time for the Great Comeuppance?
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: If you cannot see that there is a difference between Sanders supporters in general and Bernie Bros, then a conversation with you is useless.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Agreed. Deficit financing would be. Something we have shied away from because of the fear of deficits. A D in the WH would make sure that the financing is being used for big infrastructure projects and other important priorities. After the Great Recession the deficit hawks started quacking about the deficit with spurious data as early as 2010.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think pragmatic BS supporters need this convincing. The ones demanding earn my vote are unreachable
Just Chuck
For the Biden campaign, wouldn’t that be “Big Fucking Changes”?
laura
I’m down with a gigantic government direct jobs program – a modern WPA, a New New Deal and the end of private schools of any kind in primary education. I’m down with steep limits on capital flight. I am so here for confiscatory tax rates to wring idle capital out of the soft hands of every billionaire fuckwit like the guy who happily furloughed 45k employees. Judges not appointed by republicans – down with that too. Massive wage growth for working stiffs -let’s do that. Go Postal Unions! And let’s all buy a metric shit ton of stamps this week. Nuremberg Trials for the next decade – publically broadcast – let’s all see trumps prison hair. Which trump? All of them Katie! Prison reform. Vocational education now! Art and artists everywhere paid to reveal our shared humanity. Music back in the schools where it belongs – right down the hall from the library tech center med clinic and counselors wing.
Big Stuff! Like the old days but for now and the future.
debbie
I’d just like to start off with getting someone in the Oval Office who won’t bring out the worst in people.
Geminid
Baud
@debbie:
Or be the worst people.
MattF
NYT article about doing a virtual haircut. My favorite passage is when the online stylist orders the person doing the cutting to “…move the comb to the left. The other left.”
raven
@laura: I did’t know about the WPA “state guides” until I re-read “Travels With Charley” so I ordered the California issue. It’s really interesting.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
Aside from the whimpering of conservatives who covet every benefit everyone who isn’t them ever gets (while bleating “moral hazard”), what is the fiscal downside of forgiving every dime of Federally-backed student debt that there is? The money has already been spent.
debbie
@laura:
Plus horiztonal stripes! ?
debbie
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
What about those who have paid or have almost paid off their loans? Tough tits to them?
JPL
@laura: The service industry jobs are no longer enough. It is time to rebuild the country.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I haven’t looked into the issue enough to play devil’s advocate for various options. I don’t even know what the cost difference is. I have no idea what you mean by this though.
What difference does that make when you’re talking about forgiving loans?
JPL
@Baud: Did you read the New Yorker article about Mitch kissing trump’s ass… Well that wasn’t exactly the entire crux of the article, but it shows that Mitch has no values himself. Google Jane Mayer
david
So, does he promise to convict the criminals of this administration
at a rate higher than his former boss? Or does he seek a move to
the middle, reach across the aisle, not fight the battles of the past,
etc, etc, yadda-yadd… oh, fuck, is anyone going to jail for the shit
we’ve seen and experienced the last four years?
Baud
@JPL: I heard about it but didn’t read it. I don’t get that into stories about Republican moral depravity. I find it boring since I know the plot already.
Baud
@david: I think the only two candidates who ever talked about that were Harris and Warren.
laura
@JPL: hell yes let’s rebuild the country AND someone needs to sell those workers boots and lunches and workwear and haircuts and Friday night pursuits and get them all to work and back home. And maybe let’s split the baby between a 24/7 economy And one in which a semblance of family and social life is viable. Also, service industry jobs are never enough to support the US economy.
@raven: I saw that you’d been on a Steinbeck jag. So many great stories but Travels with Charlie is right there amongst the best.
schrodingers_cat
Changing topics, what is the deal with the seizure of masks, tests etc? What is happening to those.
Consignments have been confiscated from states, other countries like France, Germany and India. What is happening to all that inventory.
Citizen Alan
@debbie: I paid off all my student loans over a decade ago. It would not bother me in the slightest to see other people benefit from student loan forgiveness. That said, my biggest concern about SL forgiveness is that it is an announcement to colleges and the states governments that control them that tuition costs can be raised sky high, once it’s clear the feds will pay everybody’s student loans no matter the cost. I don’t mind my tax dollars paying for kids to go to college. I do mind my tax dollars going to pay raises for football coaches who are already generally among the highest paid public employees in every state.
Barbara
@david: I’ll say this once. The true outrage of the meltdown in 2008 was that most things that happened were legal. You don’t prosecute people for things that were legal. At least not in the U.S. Try again.
BretH
I look forward to a real Infrastructure Week.
planetjanet
@schrodingers_cat: Big structural change is here whether we wanted it or not. We can make things better as we rebuild. Talking of structural change may ease some left wing voters. We need them. Why get so upset because of a outstretched olive branch. We will need everything we can get to defeat the monstrosity in the White House.
different-church-lady
Look, I just want a functional, non-criminal executive branch again. I know Biden’s gonna give me at least that much.
Pandemics and hospital stays have a way of clarifying the distinction between needs and desires in one’s mind. This is no god-damned time to be fussy about shit. Biden wasn’t even my fifth choice, but fuck me if I’m going to kneecap him with a Christmas list now.
A Ghost to Most
@schrodingers_cat: JarJar wasn’t getting his cut.
planetjanet
@low-tech cyclist: When you include “private universities” there is a deluge of for-proft universities that only exist for taking in Federal Loan dollars. They have non-existent standards for education. Do you want to flood dollars to places like Corinthian?
gwangung
@david: We’ll never get convictions if we start at the top. 27-40% of the county will be convinced this is all partisan crap that both sides do.
Need to start from the bottom and that’s gonna take time.
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat: I want a real answer to that too.
Gin & Tonic
@david:
No.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
We absolutely want structural change – after all we have a political system that allows and maintains power for someone of Donald Trump’s caliber. It exposes a lot of systemic failures that we need to fix.
(one of which is the media consolidation has been a disaster for all of us and has lead to building cults of personality)
debbie
@Citizen Alan:
Your “announcement” is exactly what would concern me — we know how they would never, ever take advantage of this. //
I wish someone would consider taking the amount of interest already paid on each loan, apply it to principal, and then recalculate a low interest rate and offer the option of longer term.
Geminid
@laura: last summer I was traveling, stopped at Vicksburg, and happened to see four young people in Americorps windbreakers. I did not know Americorps was still around, but that is one jobs program that can be greatly expanded to weatherize and fix up poor families’ houses all over the country, and build useful skills. In her climate change plan E. Warren called for a ten-fold expansion of Agriculture conservation programs. That’s a lot of stream fencing, tree planting, and Russian olive chopping. Obviously, the key to getting any of this through next year will be the Senate. But I count 12 senate seats that can be flipped, and while we won’t run the table a loss of 8 or 9 of their colleagues can be a powerful message to the rest. In 2022, there will be 22 republican senate seats on the ballot.
taumaturgo
@schrodingers_cat: In one happens to live in suburbia I will agree. The majority of nonvoters are living a shit-life of one, maybe two minimum wage jobs, no benefits, no affordable daycare, no minimum protective gear, fired at will, no pensions to look forward to, and higher education is unaffordable and out the question. Just report to the front line work to make ends meet and have their productivity improvement go directly into the jobs creator pockets. A very different panorama from those in suburbs and therein lies the danger of this vast majority not voting or voting for the most nontraditional candidate (like in 2016). Incrementalism will not do in 2020.
Jeffro
2 essential truths:
Biden – with the entirety of the Democratic Justice League behind him – is a perfectly good figurehead and as Betty has noted, is pretty good about representing our coalition.
The Dems were never as disunited as the media and GOP (but I repeat myself) would have had folks believe, so in addition to having the party generally in agreement about its platform, Dems also know that its reps will be working to implement that platform.
3rd essential truth: while it is nice to be inspired to vote, inspiration pales in comparison to the perception of an existential threat. Every Dem, moderate or left-leaning independent, and never-trumper Republican knows that another 4 years of this will be the end of the Republic (either from incompetence, corruption, or both).
We came together as a party really quickly by historical standards. We couldn’t be more fired up to end this clown’s maladministration and send him to prison. And Blue Wave 4 (ok, BW2, but 2017 and 2019’s various elections were quite blue, too!) is going to be awesome.
Baud
@taumaturgo: Economic “incrementalism” didn’t cause us to lose those votes in 2016. Racism did.
ETA: and misogyny.
germy
Ruckus
@schrodingers_cat:
A lot of people have shown, over the last decade plus that they are not willing to elect a leader who does not have a penis. There are a lot of people who will vote for a decent democratic candidate who does, who will not vote for a woman. No matter what we think, about that, we need those people to jump on board with Biden. And he is, at the very least a valid example of human being.
Running against an invalid example.
He has never really shown his character as well as he did as VP. He’s not the first choice of a lot of people in this contest but he’s the one still standing. So that is who we have. So now it’s up to him to show us that he actually has the concept of president down pat. Because the current office occupant doesn’t even have human being down pat, not to mention dog catcher, let alone president. Yes going back 4 yrs is a desirable position to a lot of people, but we need more, which is why those great candidates that didn’t make it this far showed up and talked up good/great policies. They paved the way for the decent candidate with a penis to not only take out the trash but to revamp the crap that he brought in with him.
Just remember that like it or not, a lot of our fellow citizens think that a penis is an organ connected directly to the brain. Probably because for them it is. It isn’t necessarily the ideals that are the problem, it’s been the messenger, for those people in the first sentence of this paragraph. We need those votes, we need to crush this turd squatting in the oval office. We need to not just win we need to WIN.
My point is, that we need the change Joe is talking about, that others have talked about. Just taking out the trash is not enough, that trash has done a massive amount of stinking up the place, of destroying what works even minimally. So we have to reboot the country, because if we don’t, we will be right back where we are today. Deep in shit, just attempting to swim. That has to change, we have to acknowledge that and we have to shout down the few who profit from fucking an entire nation.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat:
Take it up with Biden. He’s the one who called for structural change right there in the quoted matter that was conveniently provided for the edification of readers in the original post. My “progressive bubble” isn’t being burst; on the contrary, the party’s nominee is now speaking my language. Yay!
MisterForkbeard
These are very good as first steps – especially the medicare age-lowering. Student Loan Aid is also really important. Even left by themselves, they’re massively helpful and will assist a lot of people.
Like all good legislation, it needs followup. Medicare could be expanded to 50+ instead of 60+, or additional large improvements or a public option added to Obamacare. Forgiving student loans for public and community universities is fantastic but also needs followup to ensure that schools don’t take advantage of this and start charging more.
I am seeing a bunch of recalcitrant jerkoffs saying “Oh, so why is Medicare good enough for people over 60 but not good enough for everyone else?”, so I don’t think this is going to penetrate many skulls. But it’ll help people and it’s a real benefit.
Subsole
This issue strikes me as a bit of a false dichotomy.
The sad fact is in places like Texas, one Democratic vote having the same weight as one Republican vote would be a pretty damn big structural change. It would, not coincidentally, enable a lot of other changes.
Help red states get democracy. That will be a landslide in itself.
Baud
@MisterForkbeard:
Just so there’s no confusion, this is a new proposal. Biden is proposing a long list of health care reforms.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
It means no new money is walking out the door if those loans are forgiven.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@debbie:
How is it hurting them in any possible way? They were fortunate enough to graduate into economies that could accommodate their job entry.
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: Exactly. This isn’t happening in isolation – it’s just the newest bit. :)
The Moar You Know
@different-church-lady: Exactly. Biden and Congress have two jobs and only two, as far as I’m concerned:
The rest everyone can squabble over after we have a cure or vaccine.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@MisterForkbeard:
I’m a couple of years over 55, carry some extra pounds and have a lovely little basal cell carcinoma I’ll need snipped off when the dermatologist reopens. Its the witching age for health care – ain’t nobody gonna want to underwrite on me.
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
But why does that matter to the policy debate one way or the other? Forgiving loans means money is not coming in. There’s a basically equal budgetary impact. Possibly “forgiving loans” sells better than “spending money,” but in substance they are one and the same.
chopper
@debbie:
i paid off my loans a long time ago and i don’t give a shit because my loans were tiny in comparison to the ones kids graduate with today.
taumaturgo
@Baud: One is not exclusive of the other, they exacerbated each other,
raven
@laura: Man I had forgotten the end and the nasty racist shit in New Orleans and the “cheerleaders”. If it’s not the perfect description of a Trump rally i don’t know what is.
Kent
Rich people who send their kids to flagship public universities don’t do student loans. They just write tuition checks. You can drop the means testing and the program would barely expand.
And yes, there are a LOT of wealthy kids attending flagship public universities. Maybe less so in the Northeast which is riddled with hundreds of private schools. But most certainly in the rest of the country. My daughter attends one and she has a LOT of wealthy friends. But I pretty much guarantee that daddy is just writing the tuition checks.
Ruckus
@MattF:
Our country can and does work with an effective leader. It can work even better with an effective leader and a congress that a majority of members don’t have their heads up someone’s ass, as every republican in office right now does.
raven
@chopper: I want the last check I write to bounce”! K Friedman
Patricia Kayden
@schrodingers_cat: While it’s true that most of us just want a sane President, it’s okay if Biden wants to adopt more progressive policies than those enforced by Presidents Obama or Clinton. The ACA isn’t perfect so I’m hoping that Biden will make adjustments to make it more effective. Biden isn’t a Democratic Socialist so I doubt he’s going to do anything that’s jarring or extreme.
Another Scott
@Baud: It doesn’t smell right that Biden would have been a co-founder of the DLC. E.g.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Democratic_Leadership_Council
doesn’t mention Biden.
A big Atlantic piece on the 1988 Democratic candidates including Hart and Biden has a big section on the DLC, but doesn’t mention Biden there.
https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/politics/policamp/demo88.htm
That paints Biden as being in the Liberal / Revivalist wing of the party as opposed to the Moderate / DLC wing.
(It’s a really good piece, BTW.)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
HRA
@Another Scott: It did not pass the first time. It passed the second time and Reagan signed it into law. What happened after that is not stated.
Baud
@taumaturgo: I have not seen any evidence that “nonincremental” policies get more net votes than “incremental” policies (both of which I assume are in the eye of the beholder).
debbie
@chopper:
That’s great for you, but someone who paid theirs off a year or two ago might feel differently.
Baud
@Another Scott: Thanks for the follow-up research. I wonder where the association between Biden and the DLC comes from. It’s definitely not something that easily confirmed through Googling.
germy
Kent
@Another Scott: And honestly, rattling on about the DLC in 2020 is about like the old guy at the end of the bar in the tinfoil hat rattling on about the tri-lateral commission.
I doubt there are more than 0.1% of persuadable voters who even know or care what the DLC is. It is purity pony stuff for activists.
Baud
@germy: Noam was actually wise enough to endorse Hillary in 2016 in the General, so this doesn’t surprise me. Still, good on him.
satby
@low-tech cyclist: another problem with this proposed student debt relief is that it leaves untouched the private for profit colleges that many lower income, less SAT-ready students took out huge loans to attend. Those colleges and trade schools over promised, under delivered, and often outright defrauded students who were desperate to better themselves but didn’t have four years to devote to getting a degree. And this proposal helps them not at all.
Miss Bianca
@chopper: I’m with you – mine were small, my ex-husband’s were larger. I sometimes wonder what my financial situation would be like now if I hadn’t felt compelled to pay his off as well as mine when I came into some money way back when.
No one should have to put up with that shit. And as far as I’m concerned, anyone who’s all bitter because they paid theirs off and now someone else doesn’t have to? If you’re going to insist we have to prop up a faulty system that makes people eat dirt because damn it, eating dirt was good enough for you…then you just might be a conservative.
germy
@Miss Bianca:
“Giving women the right to vote was pretty unfair to my great grandmother who died before women were allowed to vote.”
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
I understand what you say, but change is being forced on us by the pandemic. There is no easy going back because that world does not exist.
There is also a problem that all the world’s democracies face, from the US to the UK to India and all the countries in the EU, and many others.
A good chunk of the citizens in all these countries have been suckered into accepting the idea that democracy itself is bad, and that any group of citizens who believe that they are the right people can do whatever they want to “the wrong people.”
The MAGA crowd, as an example, are full of themselves. And the right wing propaganda machine has not slowed down at all, despite the pandemic.
It feels good sticking it to immigrants, gay and transgender people, nonwhites and women.
To be clear, I think and hope that the Democrats win the November election.
But the people who have crippled norms, traditions, and democracy are not going away. They have seen that authoritarianism works for them. And they want more of it.
This will be a new fight. And an ongoing one.
ETA: I agree that “big structural change” doesn’t mean much of anything. But the GOP will try to beat Democrats into the ground with the idea that whatever it means it is un-American.
Kent
This is why we really need a comprehensive plan to attack college affordability. Not just one-off solutions like loan forgiveness. I could envision a whole combination of carrot and stick programs designed to both reduce the cost of public higher education and increase the government support. But you have to be sophisticated about it. Higher education is about as complicated as healthcare. There are a LOT of moving parts.
But if we could manage through a combination of programs to bend the cost down to where it was in say the 1960s, that would be an ENORMOUS accomplishment.
Private universities are a whole different matter. I’d be happy to include them in various public/private partnerships for high-demand programs. For example if a local private university has a good school of nursing and we need nurses locally, then let them create a public/private partnership where local kids can attend at subsidized public tuition rates PROVIDED that the private university follows all public non-discrimination standards and runs the program like it was a branch of the local public system. That sort of thing.
artem1s
Biden is doing fine. He understands that he needs to speak to more than one audience to get elected. And demonstrate that he can also address more than one problem at a time when he does. OK so the items he mentioned are small. So what. He has firsthand experience in how to address the Big Fucking Deals that need to be fixed than just about anyone else. Problem is keeping the the Steins and Bros from blowing up the down ticket races. If they don’t stop focusing on the WH and the evil NeoLibs, they are never going to see any of their pet projects happen because the Senate will just sit on everything for another 4 years. The nomination race is over. I’m glad Joe is speaking like a presumptive nominee – cautious but optimistic. Time to start getting the voters and media to focusing on the House and Senate races and what can happen IF we have a real Congress again.
Baud
@Kent:
Here’s Biden’s preexisting college plans.
https://joebiden.com/beyondhs/
Hoodie
@Betty Cracker: Which shows that Biden’s move is a tactical winner. Joe is doing his “pivot,” but it’s one designed to nail down an electorate that is already predisposed to him (e.g, 55-65 year olds) but now really worried about the future, while also being an invitation to younger cohorts that may be more emotionally inclined towards Bernie.
Joe’s original arguments about returning to normalcy are still largely valid in the face of Covid-19 in the sense that part of “normalcy” is returning to a mode where the president does what it takes to defend the entire country, much like Obama did in 2008, unlike the inaction-but-for-corrupt-cronyism that characterizes Trump’s actions. A lot of people I’ve talked to are dawning to the reality that Covid-19 is going to hang over us for years and may even profoundly change the way we have to live in coming decades. That is true for 20-somethings that face an uncertain job market laden with student debt, but also for their 55-65 year old parents who face job insecurity with loss with loss of medical benefits and retirement savings, along with the prospect of potentially having to help their kids in such an environment. Being in my early 60’s myself and having one child that just graduated and another that is midway through college, I constantly think about how I might be able to retire on a reduced level of income if my own business cannot continue to be viable in the Covid-19 world. I imagine my kids may also be worrying about having to take care of their parents. Biden’s floating Medicare at 60 is right in the sweet spot for me and them, as his new position on student debt. These would be big structural changes, but not something radical considering the situation we’re in now.
I know that many here view the “11-dimensional chess” thing with skepticism, but looking at the evolution of Biden’s campaign has to make you wonder if some of this represents Biden’s understanding of the country after years of political experience, which was in place before he started his campaign and that is being applied based on what is currently transpiring in the world. Having run unsuccessfully for the nomination twice, Biden has to have known he was lacking in the campaign charisma category, and that he would be behind the eightball in retail contests like Iowa and New Hampshire against much more charismatic opponents. His SC-based strategy was a gamble, but an educated one. Biden has known people like Clyburn for decades and has to have been aware the importance of the black vote in the Democratic nomination process having watched Obama’s race against Clinton, which very early on was about who would be able to win the black vote. Crisis has just enhanced his electability, as people are really starting to appreciate the importance of experience and competence in using the levers of government, as evidenced by the new found popularity of people like Andrew Cuomo and Gavin Newsome, who may have their personality deficits, but are largely competent politicians.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Am not finding “He’s copying Warren, who I hate” to be compelling campaign strategy advice.
Brachiator
@Baud:
The average voter doesn’t care about this. You got to keep the message simple. Voters ask:
“Here are my concerns. What are you going to do for me, and do I believe that it is better than what the other guy is offering?”
Another Scott
@Baud: There is probably more about the DLC founding in the Wayback Machine at archive.org, but I’ve not figured out how best to make it bend to my will and give me the information I want.
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Salty Sam
I am curious what policies you do support. I notice that you never miss an opportunity to slag EW. I get it, I’ve read your reasoning on that and not trying to argue you out of it- but I’m wracking my brain trying to recall any positive contribution you have offered to moving forward from the many crises we face. And to be completely fair, I don’t always read all comments, so you may have addressed this before and I have missed it.
The primary is over, Biden will be our nominee (not my choice, I was all in for Liz, but Team Broken Glass, etc.), and with the existential crises facing the world, I can’t think of a more opportune time to go as big as we can get (caveat: Adam’s goals- hold the House majority, and take the Senate and Presidency). We won’t have time for incrementalism next January.
chopper
@debbie:
too fuckin’ bad. one of the biggest impediments to progress in this stupid country is choads complaining about how they didn’t get that when they were younger.
r€nato
@Tdjr: when millions of Americans begin reading and hearing about the many thousands of American families – even those with ‘good insurance’ – who are getting socked with the giant bills for treating a loved one’s C19, that will enlarge the demand for universal healthcare.
Likewise the employers who will get a big premium rise in 2021 due to the rona.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: if a large enough portion of our population come out of this crisis bankrupt and or jobless plus all of the survivors know people who died and probably know people who died due to not having enough money or insurance…and we come out of this just destroyed like after the Great Depression then we actually don’t have an option of just getting back to normal(doing very little except start following the law again) we HAVE to change some things pretty drastically just to reach a new normal where most people aren’t desperate.
Biden hasn’t been really ahead of our population, but I think he is matching it. Until this happened, there would not have been support for big changes. Bernie was not only ahead of us, he IMO was wrong or off tangent.
FDR didn’t come to support the positions he is known for until after the depression lasted awhile and conventional wisdom of that time had failed for awhile. Biden though has the advantage of more history to look back on, and either he sees or people are telling him, the financial aftermath of this is going to be really really bad and people are going to see it.
its that last part I worry about. However my Nextdoor chatter is about business after business going under alternating with anger over corporations making workers keep going in unsafe conditions.
chopper
@Miss Bianca:
“why do i hit my kids? well, my dad hit me, and it just wouldn’t be fair!”
Mike in NC
Mail just arrived. Front page headline in USA Today: “When every day mattered, Trump squandered a week”. More like several weeks, but it’ll still chafe Fat Bastard’s XXXL boxer shorts.
Duane
Lower the age for full SS benefits to 62. Younger workers will have expanded job opportunities, older workers will have security when combined with Medicare at 60. We’ve all been punished by the Bush and Trumpov recessions. These two things would alleviate the damage they’ve done and rebalance the system towards fairness to workers.
Hoodie
@satby: Yes, but it provides another disincentive for kids to attend those types of schools. The program would be a signal that those types of schools are disfavored. Beyond that, debt relief can’t fix every problem. There have to be additional actions, but that doesn’t mean you don’t do debt relief.
chopper
@germy:
isn’t lettting gay people get married an insult to all the gay people who weren’t able to get married?
r€nato
@debbie: boo fucking hoo, some people are just irredeemable fucking assholes who aren’t happy unless they’re making someone else miserable.
Imagine being against the C19 vaccine when it comes out, solely because you or a loved one got the rona and had to fight it off without the vaccine. Yeah, we should totally not aspire to helping people because some vindictive asshole somewhere might object.
Another Scott
@Miss Bianca: Yup. I suppose people who weren’t able to take out no-questions-asked student loans at 4% and then invest them in 16% CDs in the late-70s, early-80s are still holding grudges about that too. :-/
Times change. Everyone doesn’t come out equal when policies change, but that doesn’t mean that changing policies is bad.
We all know that higher education now is much, much more expensive for students and their parents than it was for our parents and grandparents (and even for many of us). That higher cost has huge costs to society as well. (I don’t find Martin’s arguments that it’s a personal investment and should be expensive to be compelling. It was a personal investment for our parents and grandparents, too, but they didn’t have to carry around huge debts while they were just starting out in life.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
Yes, I agree with most of it except for the means testing which I tend to universally oppose. The fear that someone making $250,000 a year might get free tuition at a big crowded public commuter school is not a concern of mine. They pay taxes too. And there aren’t that many of them to actually worry about.
I also know that candidate’s plans as well as party platforms aren’t worth the electrons it takes to display them on my screen. The Pod Save America Obama guys were talking about that last episode. About how once they took office in 2008 no one ever even looked at the 2008 Democratic Platform ever again in terms of a roadmap of where to go. ALL of the action will be in Congress and at the state level, not the White House.
germy
@Mike in NC: Interesting headline. USA Today reaches middle America, unlike The Intercept or The Guardian or Media Matters who have been saying the same thing.
Is it possible the fever will break somewhat, if mainstream news outlets are admitting what we’ve been saying for months?
Brachiator
@The Moar You Know:
Biden is also going to have to continue to get some form of the economy moving smoothly, and deal with massively increased federal debt, and some states that will have huge budget problems as well.
Good times. But I have a shitload more faith in the Democrats than in Trump and his gang of idiots.
Fair Economist
Biden seems to have settled on a basic theme – “Back to Normal, with Improvements”. It’s honest, and I think it’s going to sell great this year.
trollhattan
Just noticed the Johns Hopkins gizmo added a US-specific base map tab, presenting data by county. And clicking a county’s little “Status Report” graphic opens a flyout page containing detailed demographic data, caseload and response history for the county. Maybe it’s been there awhile, but I just found the added features.
Wonder what its like to live in a country where the government itself provides tools like this?
Gretchen
@debbie: great idea applying interest paid to loan balance. I don’t see anyone talking about dropping the student loan interest rate. It’s now 6-8%, much more than mortgage or car loans, and many lower income students actually end up owing more every month after they make their payments.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: It comes from my memory; I lived through the Third Way crapola, and lots of mainstream Democrats — including both Clintons, Harry Reid and the last decent governor of Florida, Lawton Chiles, were involved in that organization, as was Biden; I am certain of it.
But you’re right, it’s hard to find an online source for pre-digital age publications to confirm that because it’s ancient history. This Wikipedia entry for “New Democrats” comes as close as I can find online in a couple of minutes’ Googling:
Unfortunately, the cited publication (“The Making of the New Democrats.” Political Science Quarterly 110, no. 2 (1995): 207-221.) isn’t online. I’d have to pay for access to a PDF, which I’m too cheap to do to bolster an argument on a blog.
It’s a pointless argument anyway; lots of Dems were third way types in the Reagan-Bush era, most notably Bill Clinton. It sure seemed to be the only way to win a national election during a time when conservative politics were ascendant, so I understood why, even though I didn’t like it.
The point isn’t that past DLC affiliation says something negative about anyone’s character; it’s that times change, and that’s a good thing.
germy
@trollhattan:
Kent
I don’t think young people quite understand how big of a game changer Medicare at 60 would be for millions of Americans. I’m on other financial forms and bridging the gap between retirement or getting laid off before 65 and reaching medicare age is almost universally the number one concern of people in their 50s. There are literally millions of people scraping along in shitty jobs they don’t want simply to get to medicare age. Free them up to move on with their lives and you open up a huge window of opportunity for younger people to rush in and take those jobs.
Education is a perfect example. There are millions of late 50s and early 60s age teachers who are pretty much done with the job but can’t quit because they need the health care. They are blocking teaching jobs for younger fresh out of college teachers. Lowering medicare to age 60 would open up millions of good jobs to younger people.
trollhattan
@Fair Economist:
Agree. “We’ve done crazy, let’s hit Reset, take a deep breath and go forward from there” probably appeals to many. TBF he has better recognition than any of the two-dozen other candidates because he was not the typical invisible VP and instead was in the nation’s eye for eight years.
Brachiator
@Kent:
I suppose that this is largely true. As far as I am concerned, Biden can promise free college for everyone, if this will bring young people to the polls. And then he can make it a secondary issue once elected.
Public schools are still in terrible shape. And one group of people who feel forgotten and who have leaned towards Trump are those who have never attended college. Student loan forgiveness does not mean much to this group. But improved public education, and an emphasis on community colleges and job training programs might be more appealing.
Maybe it’s just a matter of emphasis.
Gretchen
My daughter who took out more than $100K loans to get a master’s in public health from an Ivy League school. We have modest means and couldn’t help her. Our state school had a program, but not the concentration she wanted to pursue. I think she’s mostly paying interest every month – very little of the principle. She is in a forgiveness program where if you work for 10 years in public service and make your payments, it is forgiven. But the first students in that program came up on 10 years this year, and Betsy DeVos is not forgiving them. I know one young doctor who came out of private medical school owing more than a quarter-million dollars.
germy
@Kent: HRC’s plan was Medicare for age 55 and up.
Of course, Chuck Todd’s concerns over her email practices prevented that plan from being implemented.
Kent
You mean people actually subscribe to USA Today? I thought it was like the Gideon’s Bibles and in-flight Airline magazines. Something that only showed up for free in hotel lobbies.
Kent
Because otherwise Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell would have made that their #1 agenda in 2016?
schrodingers_cat
@trollhattan: Just because I am not die hard supporter of Elizabeth W does not mean I hate her. Did she at least come second in any of the primary contestants? I am in agreement with more of the primary electorate than many BJers it would seem.
Kent
My wife works with young doctors who have this sort of debt. They also make $300,000/year and are buying houses in the Portland metro area at age 30. They will be OK.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: Thanks. I just wanted to nail down that tidbit because it was news to me that he was associated with the DLC at all.
Brachiator
@Kent:
I think that opening up Medicare may be a good idea. However, I have never seen anything anywhere that supports your contention that younger people will rush in to take jobs made available by retiring older workers.
If anything, the state of the economy makes older people stay in the job market longer, and take jobs that used to go to younger workers. This is why, you see older people taking jobs at McDonalds. They need the money.
Medicare at 60 might make it easier for corporations to lay off older workers and trim their payrolls. And some older workers might be able to move on to other jobs, rather than stay at a company that they don’t like.
But this proposal will likely not encourage more people to voluntarily retire. Employed workers may simply opt out of more expensive employer health insurance and choose Medicare, and keep on working.
a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
For greater clarity on why Crozier felt he couldn’t wait, here’s a terrifying Twitter thread, with a link to FTFNYT:
https://twitter.com/kimwooster11/status/1249480330404417538?s=21
TL;DR: The reactor staff were becoming ill. This is not an area where people from other MOS can pitch in an emergency (the tweets are from a Navy vet who was reactor staff on the USNS Enterprise.)
cokane
Legislative margins, especially in the Senate are going to be the difference between a progressive Biden presidency and a moderate one. If lefties want leftist policies, you have to stack the government with lefty politicians. There is no other solution.
And this determination of progressive Biden or moderate Biden won’t even be determined in November. The 2022 election will be important as well. I really wish some of these amateur lefty activists stopped focusing on personalities and just worried about the math.
Chyron HR
@schrodingers_cat:
Do you plan to still be pissing and moaning about Warren in April 2021?
April 2031?
schrodingers_cat
@Salty Sam: 1. Undoing the havoc T has caused (this includes foreign policy too)
2. Bringing the Orange Tyrant and his cronies to justice.
3. A return to Keynesian macroeconomics, using deficit financing.
Me at #6
The Thin Black Duke
Do you know what’s bumming me out? No matter what woman Biden picks as VP, she won’t be good enough. Just wait.
germy
@Brachiator:
I’m old enough to remember when private employers made the effort to offer job training to potential employees. (“No experience necessary – will train” said the want ads)
Now they want taxpayers to create job training programs for them.
Socialism for them, but not for me.
Kent
@Brachiator: I can’t point you to any studies. But I’m in education and I know a lot of older teachers who are basically clinging to their jobs until 65 because of medicare. A lot of them would otherwise retire, or just move on to something else they want to do with their lives like open up a coffee shop or alpaca farm or winery or or dabble in real estate or whatever. But they stick with teaching past their pull date simply because of the medical benefits. The ACA helped with some of that, but lowering the medicare age would do more.
We are talking about 2-income middle class professional types with 401(k)s and pensions, not Wal-mart greeters. That is a whole different issue.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: I had no problems with HRC, or Kamala H or Amy K. My differences with EW are ideological. She was way too close to BS for my liking YMMV.
Brachiator
@germy:
RE: an emphasis on community colleges and job training programs might be more appealing.
Yep. I remember those days as well. Maybe it worked when we were more of a manufacturing economy. Not so sure that it works as well anymore.
Truth to tell, I’m not sure that a lot of job training programs are all that effective. Changes to the economy come so fast, that you can train a person for a job, only to find that the industry they were training for no longer exists.
I don’t know the answer for this.
schrodingers_cat
Rs want to defund USPS and we are arguing about big structural change. Talk about parallel universes.
I say we protect what we have first and then change what we don’t like.
MomSense
@Geminid:
Obama spoke about how the ARRA, Paris Accords and TPP were all designed to work together to help the green energy sector, but we couldn’t have that because of anti trade Senators like Warren, Sanders, and Brown who blame trade for problems and trends that began long before trade deals.
They also supported tariffs. That worked out grrrrreat.
Unless we can figure out how to incent other countries to buy from us instead of cheaper Chinese products, we are pretty much fucked.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
I was able to get the article through my public library. Here’s where it mentions Biden’s name based on my search of the PDF.
Yutsano
@Baud: I’m reading it. It’s an absolute back door to single payer in ten years. In fact it’s so subversive hardly anyone would notice until it happened.
stinger
This phrase has taken on a new meaning for me, thanks to the Rep for CA-45!
Gretchen
@Kent: This particular young doctor had a breakdown during her residency program and is now not working at all, still owes the quarter -million.
Kent
@Brachiator: Germany has the answer. They actually partner with big employers to create training and apprenticeship programs. But I think BOTH higher education and industry are too hide-bound to do that effectively here. Would require a sea change on both sides.
schrodingers_cat
@Kent:
Germany also puts people on university or apprentice tracks when they are quite young. Women and minorities won’t fare well in that system, they will be shunted out of the college track. Also systems which have a lower price tag on higher education have highly selective entrance exams and other barriers to entry.
Google IIT-JEE question papers if you want to see what I mean.
Dorothy A. Winsor
For profit education is an abomination. So is for profit health care, for that matter. Pay people well, but don’t skim that extra stuff off the top.
Kent
The solution for that sort of issue might be allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy. I don’t know. One would hope she can get it together and return to medicine at some point. But that sort of unusual example isn’t a compelling argument to make loan forgiveness for wealthy doctors a top societal priority. Compared to say putting the money into crumbling inner city schools or some other social program.
Brachiator
@Kent:
Educators who have an adequate pension and in a profession where they might not be easily laid off are a relatively narrow slice of the economy.
And there are people age 60 and above who are still scrambling not only to earn a living, but to add to or replenish depleted retirement savings.
Again, I favor an earlier Medicare buy-in, but it is not going to free up jobs.
Also, I think the pandemic upends a lot of old ways that we have been thinking about the economy. I am not sure how this may affect people’s employment and retirement decisions.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Kent: The German Gymnasium system has many draw backs not least of which is that Gymnasiums are allow to handpick 60% of their students…Sounds like a good way of codifying marginalization for already marginalized students.
A hard look at discrimination in secondary educatio
“A Gymnasium may pick 60 per cent of its students (and 10 percent are reserved for siblings), but the remaining 30 per cent of its places will be allocated by lottery and are open to all pupils. In theory, attempts to create more diverse schools are a positive development. But in reality, this reform has prompted an increasingly hostile attitude towards migrants and, in particular, those affiliated with Islam—mainly people of Turkish, Kurdish, and Arabic descent.”
trollhattan
@a thousand flouncing lurkers was fidelio:
Horrifying. I can’t imagine what happens when the virus makes it onto a sub. Not OK, boomer.
OGLiberal
Not entirely off topic – when you win all the stuff that matters at the state level, this happens…even with a dude who appeared in blackface:
https://wtop.com/virginia/2020/04/va-gov-northam-signs-series-of-bills-designed-to-make-voting-easier/
Kent
@schrodingers_cat: I’m pretty familiar with the German educational system. We have hosted German exchange students. I’m not saying the entire German education system is the model to follow with their early tracking. Only the public/private partnerships they use to make their job training programs more effective then the garbage offered at some of our community colleges.
In point of fact, it is more boys that are falling through the cracks here in the US than girls. College attendance is much higher for women than men in every ethnic, racial, and socio-economic group. Improving non-college internship opportunities would help boys more than girls.
schrodingers_cat
@OGLiberal: There were many on this forum who wanted him to resign. I am glad that he didn’t.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
Her problem is not her platform, nor her campaigning, it’s her gender. Even the Democratic Party is susceptible to that old problem.
Subsole
@gwangung:
Time purchased by getting a notoriously fickle electorate to show up like it’s their job.
Which, y’know, it IS.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@trollhattan: I see what you did there
cmorenc
Watch for the Roberts Court 5 to discover dozens of novel implicit limitations to the federal “commerce clause” designed to cripple any revival of progressive-oriented government – the decision technically upholding the ACA on shaky “tax” grounds but holding that the commerce clause doesn’t extend broadly enough to do so is a classic example of what may be coming. That commerce clause portion of the ACA decision flied directly contrary to sixty years of prior SCOTUS jurispurdence going back to Wickard v Filburn – under prior decisions, the ACA would have unquestionably been on solid constitutional commerce-clause grounds. If the constitutionality of the Social Security Act wasn’t already long established, it’s doubtful as a fresh question that the Roberts Court would find it constitutionally valid. Incremental bit-by-bit, but overall radical narrowing of the commerce clause (except wrt extension that benefit big business) is highly likely to be on the long-term agenda of the Roberts Court, if they are able to keep their one-vote majority long enough.
Kelly
If we could just get costs back to the 1970’s it’d be great. In the 1970’s I completed my bachelors degree with a debt equivalent to a couple months of my first job’s wages. Everything else I paid for as I went with wages from part time jobs.
Lyrebird
@low-tech cyclist: He’s also been busy stating in public (well posting or whatever) how the pandemic is exposing racial inequities in health care. Okay so most BJ readers have been kinda aware of that for a really long time, but I’m delighted he’s out there saying it.
satby
@Dorothy A. Winsor: for profit education (and health care) is an abomination, but it filled a hole. Students who couldn’t go to college and wanted training for jobs that employers no longer provide. College isn’t an option for everyone, and not all jobs need a four year degree. Requiring that started the inflation in college tuition.
Nursing used to be a “trade school” type of training. The nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals and were called “diploma” schools to differentiate them from a semester community college LPN certificate. For a long time a diploma nursing program was considered superior training for nurses, because it was heavy on clinical hands on training. That’s the kind of school I went to, I didn’t have the resources to go to college to get a 4 year BSN, especially when it wasn’t particularly prized over a diploma RN. That changed in the mid 70s, like so much else. But it hasn’t been an improvement.
trollhattan
What fresh hell?
schrodingers_cat
@trollhattan: For me its her proximity to the man from Vt. I have canvassed for female candidates in local elections.
Subsole
@The Thin Black Duke:
Who do you like? I’m thinking either Harris or Klobuchar, to sew up the midwest.
Hoodie
@Brachiator: I think there is something to the argument that lowering Medicare to 60 would free up a number of higher paying jobs by either bringing on retirement or semi-retirement. Kent’s example of teachers or other public employees is one. There are also professionals who may have saved enough to retire modestly but for whom uncontrolled health insurance costs are an unknown that they don’t want to risk, so they hold off on retirement until they are Medicare eligible. I’m a lawyer who falls into that category and my sister, a nurse, does as well. The people you’re citing, e.g., fast food workers, etc., fall into that class, but those jobs are more fungible and do not generally provide a middle class career, i.e., those are not the types of jobs we want to open up for young people. Hell, I’d consider working at a low-wage retail job after I retire just to have something to do.
This may be particularly relevant in a world in which Covid continues to hang over our heads as a not insignificant chance of sudden death, even if you are healthy and have no co-morbidities. If this becomes a chronic or cyclic thing, some in their late 50’s/early 60’s may conclude it is not worth continuing to work full time to further secure their retirement if Covid is going to take you anyway in your 60s or 70s. It could change the balance against the chance of running out of money if you manage to live into your 90s. If you can get Medicare at 60, a lot may decide to take it and go home and work on the garden, build some cabinets or bake some pies. People’s expectations of retirement may significantly change.
Subsole
@cmorenc: Which is why priority #2 is unpacking the courts that McConnell packed.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
She’s just one of six (if I’m counting right) women who ran this time and rose to the fore against most of the others. And yet not one succeeded while, for example, an unknown mayor of a dinky city emerged out of thin air and was a viable candidate quite late?
Melusine
I’m sorry, where exactly is the big structural change?
Lowering Medicare to 60. That’ll help some tiny percentage of the population. And by starting at 60, he pretty much guarantees repubs will negotiate it up to 63. This is why I supported Warren. She understands that if you start by demanding 90 – 100% of what you want, you can probably get at least half, maybe 75%. Start out asking for a morsel, and you’ll get crumbs.
Also, punishing people for working their asses for grants and scholarships to help swing private tuition, or taking out loans because they couldn’t get the educationthey needed at their state school, is deeply shitty. Not everyone who goes to a private school is rich, nor are all those at state schools poor/middle class.
Better to have stuck to pandemic recovery, and not made a big deal about taking in progressive ideas, only to address them in an insultingly half-hearted way.
I will vote for the Dem because I’m not a psychopath, but Biden can be just as stubborn and resistant to change as Bernie. Or as he keeps telling us his father advised, “Never explain, never apologize.” This is not the motto of a good leader and it’s not a model of good leadership.
Don’t tell me what you’re willing to settle for. Tell me what you’re willing to fight for.
trollhattan
@Subsole:
How is Mitch’s “retire your old Republican ass” campaign with federal judges going? Is he throwing in golf club memberships yet?
Kent
Evidence suggests that Dems are very far from a lock to keep Klobuchar’s seat in the 2022 mid-terms if she gets the VP pick. The Senate is ALL IMPORTANT. So that would lend argument for Harris over Klobuchar, all other things being equal (which they are very much not).
Biden should not pick ANY purple or red state senators or governors for any positions, VP or otherwise. That was one of Obama’s biggest errors. And MN is a pretty purple state.
trollhattan
@Melusine:
Beginning to see a problem here already.
Brachiator
@MomSense:
I don’t know. We seemed to be doing well for a while and had low unemployment. And Trump’s tariffs really did nothing.
A mild balance of trade deficit is not necessarily a big deal. And we do well in agriculture, services and other areas. It may not be reasonable to believe that we have to dominate in manufacturing when other countries are doing a good job. To some extent, we got lucky in the postwar world because competitors had to rebuild their economies and infrastructure. We had a head start and the rest of the world caught up.
Salty Sam
Thanks. I’m onboard with all of these, ESPECIALLY #2.
IMO, these few items alone will require “big structural change”, if they are not to be undone by Repub intransigence, future Repub majorities, or (worst of all) conservative judges who have been salted away in our courts.
I’m 66, and have watched our country transformed for the worse under “conservative” policies for my entire adult life. We’ve got one shot in November to right the ship. From that point, it will be a multigenerational effort to get back on track, whatever that is.
trollhattan
@Kent:
It’s not as though Kaine delivered anything for Hillary. Biden’s already “Midwest nice” even if he’s not from there. He needs some dyn-o-mite as a running mate.
trollhattan
@Salty Sam:
This x 1,000.
Kent
@Melusine: You do realize that when it comes to health care policy, that neither Clinton’s nor Biden’s nor Sander’s policy proposals would have (or will be) the starting point in the next round of health care reform. The starting point will be whatever gets out of the House and the ending point will be whatever they negotiate with the Senate.
The surest way for Biden or Sanders or any Dem president to make a proposal DOA in Congress is to make it their signature plan. All that accomplishes is to rally the opposition. Obama understood that. Which is why he let Congress take the lead on the ACA an it only really became labeled “Obamacare” after the fact.
germy
@trollhattan: I don’t know, but according to Jane Mayer, his liberal first wife is writing a “tell all” book.
I doubt she’ll have much to say about the turtle. She’s put him firmly in her past.
Dorothy A. Winsor
schrodingers_cat
@trollhattan: HRC won the nomination handily and even got more votes in the general than Orange.
Hoodie
@Brachiator: Also, that problem was already evolving. China isn’t all that cheap anymore. Right now they’re also benefiting from simply having the infrastructure to do certain things that others can’t do, irrespective of price. Covid, unless we get some sort of miracle cure, is also likely to make a lot of companies rethink global supply chains, irrespective of price. I have one client that was already having problems back in January simply because of supply chain problems in China caused by Covid. They make high end equipment with high margins, and the stuff that was holding them back was relatively small bore stuff for which the price of the individual component has a marginal impact on the overall price of the equipment. That has a good chance to make its way into risk assessments in the future, and may result in more redundancy in supply, including onshoring stuff that had previously been sent offshore.
germy
Chris Johnson
@schrodingers_cat:
What the hell do you think is even going to happen in the foreseeable future? Seriously.
What is even able to NOT change at this point?
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
So you’re saying you don’t like Warren because she stood too close to Bernie on policy? As I recall, much of the Democrtic party’s base stands not very far from him on policy. ETA: It’s Bernie the halfbaked candidate and his Bro movement people didn’t like.
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Good.
gene108
I never viewed the DLC as a hardcore ideological identity, but rather an attempt to retake the White House, after Democrats were crushed in 3 straight Presidential elections.
YMMV
Kent
This.
Other than M4A (which is arguably the superior policy on the merits, just not on the politics) I’m not aware of much of all in terms of Warren policy proposals that are beyond the pale. Her proposal to increase taxes on Jeff Bezos? Her proposals to rein in the big banks? Her climate change proposals?
sdhays
Now now, he was also very concerned that she was “over prepared”. I know we’re all glad we dodged THAT bullet!
Elizabelle
Hello. WaPost website has link to Cuomo and other regional governors addressing when to reopen the economy etc.
Jinchi
16 million people just lost their jobs, with more to come, and many of those lost their health insurance at the same time. Big change is here, whether you like it or not. People want their problems solved and we won’t be able to deal with the repercussions simply by trying to roll back the system to 2016.
germy
@Elizabelle:
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat:
Against this sparkling competition.
Lincoln Chafee, Hillary Clinton, Martin O’Malley, Bernie Sanders, and Jim Webb.
Origuy
Bernie posted a link to his Facebook appearance on his Twitter feed. The replies are full of Bros having conniptions. The best was one guy who wanted people to call Congress demanding that Biden resign. He seems to have thought Joe is still in Congress.
Kent
This. In retrospect there was probably too much effort to win back the so-called “Reagan Democrats” which is what we called the “white working class” back then. But it was really no different from the 2020 version of hand wringing about the white working class vote. But it was probably a better strategy in 1988 than 2020 when the country is much less white. Still racist, but more effective electorally.
Kelly
60 is old at a lot of jobs. Like my younger sister at a grocery store. Painful to be on her feet all day after 30 years. Sheltering at home now watching her sick days and vacation days tick away. Most people in construction. Full Social Security and Medicare at 60 would be a gigantic boon to lower income Americans. Americans put more time in a work than any European country. Leveling wealth and income inequality just a bit could cover the cost.
Keep your stick on the ice. We’re all in this together.
trollhattan
@germy:
Uh, yeah. I suppose he can force federal employees to go to work but what else can he control?
Brachiator
@Hoodie:
I understand the argument, but I have not seen any data to support the notion that older workers would free up jobs if they retire.
I mentioned McDonald’s not because I think it is a wonderful career path, but because it is one of a number of clear examples where reliable older workers crowd out younger workers from what used to be part-time jobs because older workers need the money.
Also, I have to point out again that buying into Medicare early is not the same thing as retiring early and taking Social Security or other pensions. And currently, a person who retired early would permanently receive a smaller Social Security check. This would be a shitty trade-off for most people.
Currently, the minimum early retirement age is 62 to avoid the most drastic reduction of benefits. A person who retired at age 60 would receive 70 percent of their normal Social Security pension.
Now, if you want to change this and also allow an early Medicare buy in, you are going to need to spend a chunk of money to support it.
You are in a very fortunate position if you could take a job just for fun or to have something to do after you retire.
But as I mentioned before, I agree that for some older workers, navigating in a post pandemic world will bring new challenges. And retirement issues may require new options.
Elizabelle
C-Span link to Cuomo and other governors’ press conference. WaPost just dropped it (or glitch).
https://www.c-span.org/video/?471176-1/york-gov-cuomo-governors-announce-coordinated-reopening-effort&live
The contrast in approach between governors and Trump could not be more stark.
taumaturgo
@Baud: Re: Presidential elections 2016
Elizabelle
@germy: Fuck that mofo Trump. It’s actually not (entirely) his to decide. He’s just puffing and running his mouth.
Jinchi
Not sure how he thinks that will work. The mayors and governors are the ones who made the decisions to shut down. Why does he think he has to power to open things back up?
Gretchen
I don’t think Klobuchar brings a single voter that Biden doesn’t already have. I think Harris would bring some excitement and fire to the ticket.
Chyron HR
@germy:
What part of Bernie or Bust did he not understand?
taumaturgo
@Jinchi: Incrementalism will not do in 2020, especially for voters struggling with a shit-life.
Baud
@taumaturgo: How so? Hillary got more votes, and Trump won on racism and sexism, along with fake scandals and news against Hillary, not on his bold structural changes.
trollhattan
@Kelly:
It is, and the 60-65 cohort surely comprise (calling David Anderson) a vastly out-of-proportion consumption of healthcare compared to any younger five-year slice of the populace. If you bumped the qualifying age downward in five-year segments, each would be progressively (heh) cheaper than the previous.
Elizabelle
@Jinchi: Trump has been trying to grab credit for what worked — ie. flattening the curve via the governors’ making the hard decision to shut down.
Amir Khalid
@germy:
He’s going to look like a real ninny when he orders the states to open up, and nothing happens. I look forward to seeing that.
Elizabelle
@Gretchen: Agreed.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
The Thin Black Duke
@germy: Uh-huh. I’m in Massachusetts, Baker is the governor, and although he’s a republican, he’s not a goddamned idiot. Baker isn’t going to ‘open’ up anything until the smart people he listens to tells him it’s safe.
trollhattan
@Kelly:
Took me a few tries before I figured out this wasn’t an odd challenge to doods. :-P
Kent
Very much this.
My brother is in construction. He started working full time at age 19. He will have 40 years of work history and social security/medicare contributions under his belt at age 59.
I went to college, then Peace Corps, then grad school, then messed around in Alaska doing part time fisheries work and didn’t start my first real full-time career job until age 30. Which is not atypical for a lot of middle class professional types. When I reach the full retirement age of 65 I will only have 35 years of full time work history under my belt.
Is it fair that blue collar workers like my brother have to work 10-YEARS LONGER to reach retirement benefits than white collar professionals such as myself? That is the system we have today.
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: She failed to endorse Biden. BS has now endorsed Biden. She has terrible political instincts. She didn’t go after BS during the primaries she was content to play second fiddle to the campaign that attacked her.
In 2016 she added her voice to the chorus of rigged primaries by BS and his supporters.
Economic policy is important but there are bigger things at stake in this election than economics. It is the very survival of democracy that is in question now. For both BS and EW economics trumped everything. That is not a worldview I share.
Her presidential campaign is history. I am only answering this question because you asked me. I am officially done with this topic.
Jinchi
The problem is that more than half of our Senators and nearly as many Congress people are over 60 and a lot of them wonder why the rest of us are too lazy to work until we drop.
Sab
@Brachiator: Medicare isn’t timed the same as Social Security. Medicare eligibility starts at 65. Social Security full benefit eligibility starts later ( currntly at 66.) In the intervening period you pay the premiums directly instead of withheld from Social Security. Many public employees ( e.g. teachers) can buy into Medicare directly although they are not eligible for Social Security.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The other thing is that, even if COVID has made people receptive to big changes, that does not mean the people are going to the receptive to big changes that look exactly like what progressives want to see.
Elizabelle
Cuomo bringing up you might have to have the schools open before you send their parents back to work. Also that transport has to be back up.
The governors (and Congress) think these issues through.
Q re whether it’s frustrating to have the President claiming overarching powers when it’s Cuomo and the governors actually handling this.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Amir Khalid:
I saw someone explaining the authority on twitter (I think). According to this person, the lockdowns have weigh as a police action. And police actions are controlled at the state level. There’s no federal authority there.
Elizabelle
This will be a good transcript. Cuomo always has some good digs at Trump and Trump’s simplistic thinking.
Pointing out that the “rules of government matter. There is an operating manual.”
schrodingers_cat
In economics structural change would imply changing the structure of the economy. So before I endorse such a change I need to know what that entails.
Baud
@Kent:
I’ve not heard of any proposed reform that would change the relative time-to-benefits problem that you are outlining.
BBA
not gonna lie, Sanders endorsing Biden makes me think much less of Biden
Kent
@Amir Khalid:
You are missing the larger picture. Trump isn’t expecting the country to actually open up on his orders. He is setting the table to pass the blame when the country is still in the economic toilet in the fall. TRUMP was fighting for your jobs and your economy but he was betrayed by the weak-willed Dem establishment that kept the country closed. That is the narrative they are building. And it might be an effective one if the country is chafing at continued restrictions next fall.
Jinchi
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I wasn’t actually criticizing Biden, but the point still stands. We won’t solve these problems unless we make substantial changes to the system. If Mitch blocks it, we’re looking at years of misery.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“therein… will not do”… this has to be some kind of parody
mrmoshpotato
@Amir Khalid: Good times when Cuomo, Newsom, Pritzker and every other Democratic governor tell Dump to get fucked because the data doesn’t support lifting the Stay At Home order and would likely harm more people.
James E Powell
I can’t believe we’re having these arguments. Incumbent elections are referenda on the incumbents. The challengers plans on Medicare aren’t a way to win or lose. We need to attack Trump and the Republicans, not each other. #NeverBiden people should just be ignored.
We have our candidate. We can’t make him into a different one and we don’t need to. We need to destroy the incumbent and his party. Attack, attack, attack. Make sure we can vote. Attack.
Steeplejack (phone)
This just in:
Chaser:
A Ghost to Most
@Amir Khalid:
Agreed. And what does t* when he makes a fool of himself? He doubles down. It’s the only move he knows.
trollhattan
@Kent:
Yeah. Similarly, letting “a bajillion COVID deaths” slip out gives him cred for crowing, “See, it was only a half-bajillion deaths, so a half-bajillion people are alive because of me.”
God, I can’t wait.
Kent
There aren’t any. But that is because most policy proposals are developed by white collar college-educated professional types who don’t see the larger picture. I’m just pointing out that setting a fixed retirement age with no consideration of the number of working years results in a system that is HEAVILY tilted towards white collar professionals who start their working career later in life.
Social security already tracks what the call “substantial contributions” by year. They do that for things like the WEP. A more fair system would allow anyone to retire with full benefits once they reach a certain number of years of full time work history, no matter what the age.
debbie
@germy:
Well, DeWine will have none of that, thank you very much!
Jinchi
@Elizabelle: Trump already gets too much credit for the response. He never ordered a national shelter-in-place and he’s undermined states at every turn. The media is a bit too credulous with their reporting on Trump “reopening the economy”. He can’t simply order everyone to go back to work.
Baud
Speaking of Virginia,
cain
@The Moar You Know:
Let’s hope for the best. For once people can see Republican perfidy in the next 6-8 months and be able to sink in more – because it always seems we get elected at the tail end of a disaster – and the public forgets and republicans gaslighting and obstruction gets them back in power again.
I’m hoping this time that when we get back to in power that they will continue to vote Democratic all the way.. and we consolidate our power and not let these assholes get back in until they are completely sane again.
Sab
@Kent: Yes. I had a white collar professional job at a desk, typing. My husband started work at 16 doing manual labor, then factory work then heavy lifting in construction related sales. His back is shot. His lumgs aren’t great. He has skin cancer from sun and chemical exposure. He couldn’t possible still be doing any of the jobs he used to do.
Kent
Fixed that for you.
Mitch remaining as majority leader. Or even remaining as minority leader with the filibuster in place means nothing decent will pass Congress, EVER. Guaranteed. Hell, even if Mitch is gone, someone else equally vile will take his place. I doubt Ted Cruz as minority leader would be any better.
Retaking the Senate AND abolishing the filibuster is the only path forward for actual progressive change.
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
As I see it, Warren has done something better than endorsing Biden: she got him to endorse and adopt some of her key policy proposals. I think that’s what she was really running for, to get her policy ideas into the White House.
As for what she said in 2016 about the Democratic primary being rigged, we have all passed a lot of water since then, and it’s surprising to see someone bringing it up now.
Jinchi
Good point. Trump’s only play is to order everyone to do the thing that they already did. That’s why he “changed his mind” about reopening the country and filling the pews on Easter. He’d look even more like a clod if he hadn’t “delayed” reopening the country.
cain
@chopper:
So weird you use choad.. we never use it here in the U.S. but when I went to catholic school in India, it was used often by the kids.
Jinchi
Right, let’s try to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Uncle Cosmo
And if that triggers a resurgence in infections and deaths among Federal employees, wouldn’t Orangecandyass & Stephen “Reinhard Heydrich’s Mini-Me” Miller consider that a win?? No-count moochers always gettin’ in his way, amirite?
Brachiator
@satby:
Thank you for this background information. I did not know this. I love the education I get here.
Elizabelle
@Jinchi: I know. That’s the default response, although even NPR toughed up today, specifically pointing out that Trump’s claims and promises have not panned out, and examples of how he has gaslighted us — the Google website, for starters, although that’s so last month.
Jinchi
Not winning the presidency is hardly the measure of having “terrible political instincts”. She already has a record of success in changing the country with the creation of the CFPB. The degree to which her ideas define how we move forward will demonstrate how good her instincts truly are. Check back in a couple of years and we can debate it.
Kent
@Brachiator:
@satby:
Thank you for this background information. I did not know this. I love the education I get here.
Yep. My mom is a retired RN. She got her degree through one of those “diploma nursing” programs in Pittsburgh in the 1950s where she studied at one of the big Catholic teaching hospitals there, not a traditional university.
sdhays
@Jinchi: A normal President would probably oversee a national coordination effort, but this President* is pretty much irrelevant because he’s incapable of doing such a thing and hostile to even the idea.
mrmoshpotato
@cain:
Would you like a rainbow-farting unicorn butler with your sane Russthuglican party?
The Russthuglican party has been trying to destroy democracy and the social safety net for. over. forty. fucking. years.
Sane Russthuglican party? It’s dead, Jim. And so is the horse with a waffle cone glued to its head.
Quiltingfool
@Kent: You are spot on re older teachers hanging on because of high health care costs upon retirement. I know a couple of those, and they needed to retire a few years ago because they are just worn down. Teaching was the best job I ever had; I enjoyed the challenge, and I was never, ever bored (well, I was bored during testing, proctoring exams is pretty dull). Yet, I knew when it was time to walk away, for the best interests of the students. However, I have heard through the grapevine that my replacements aren’t quite as enthusiastic about teaching kids I was, so…wish they could’ve had someone better, and much better than me.
Duane
@Kent: Lower the age for full SS benefits to 60 or 62. This combined with Medicare at 60 will open jobs for younger workers, stimulate an economy in recession (or depression) and restore fairness to the one-sided system we currently have.
trollhattan
@Duane:
You might be able to do that if you simultaneously lifted the income cap on FICA taxes*. Otherwise you’d drain the SS reserve, especially considering they’ve been incrementally raising and not lowering the qualifying age.
*Which they bloody well should do anyway.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi:
I like Warren and I like the CFPB, but… “changed the country”?
trump is President and (again) Mitch McConnell is the Senate Majority Leader and it’s probably 50/50 that he will still be a year from now, and those odds are probably better than they would be if Warren were the Dem nominee (ETA) in no small part because she embraced eliminating existing health insurance plans, which is the biggest example of her bad political instincts
Michael
@schrodingers_cat: The Biden lowering the Medicare age to 60 is actual Medicare, with its $130 a month (or whatever it is) premium, not lowering the age to 50 or 55 with a buy-in, which would be with something like typical premiums. There are a lot of wingnuts who are one to five years short of the current 65 requirement, not employed, retired, or independent contractors etc. and counting the days until they are 65.
But this must be made clear.
Salty Sam
cause for celebration!
Duane
@trollhattan: The income cap on SS tax is a relic from the past and needs fixed. I believe Biden is on that. Also @Kent’s idea rhat ties eligibility to time in the system is right on. A new fair deal on SS wins votes, and it’s the right thing to do.
Michael
@Elizabelle: NPR national news always states the actual Trump facts in the most bland and boring way possible (when they actually do, which is seldom), making it still safely both-sides-do-it.
Hungry Joe
taumaturgo
@Baud: In part. He also took on the Republican establishment and dismantle and humiliated everyone of the professional politicians that he ran against. The battle states were close, but the people saw in Hillary a crooked and lying politician offering warm over policies, fair or not. In contrast, Donald was crooked and a bigger liar but he was also unconventional and not a politician. He made bold promises, there was no tinkering around the edges all lies of course, but the fact that he dared stick his neck out was enough to win the support of previous Obama voters. Biden needs to go big and bold, incremental changes will not do especially for those who are living a shit-life with little to nothing to lose.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jinchi: Having good ideas and having good political instincts are two different things. Some folk have one or the other to varying degrees, a rare few have both.
Immanentize
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Do you think Larry David’s turn this week on StNL did the trick?
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat: Warren is pushing her paid sick leave legislation today.
Her endorsement of Biden will come. Do you doubt that?
Cheers,
Scott.
Melusine
@Kent: He didn’t have to bring it up. He chose to. And coming right after the “I’m listening to progreseive concerns” tweets, it’s bad messaging.
J R in WV
@Splitting Image:
Israel, Brazil, Mexico, Belerus, Turkmenistan, all with leaders worse than Trump, as hard as that is to believe!!! I’m sure there are others, as well.
J R in WV
@planetjanet:
Liberty University? Hell NO !!! Those fuckers need to have RICO invoked, their real estate confiscated, their monies confiscated, go to Jail !!! All of them!!!! (Students too, take a hard lesson!)
Sally
@debbie: I know I’m too late for this thread, and please excuse me for butting in. Saying that because I had to scrimp and save to pay loans so everyone should have to do the same is a recipe for no progress ever, on anything. There are lots of examples where life was tougher five years ago, fifty years ago, etc, but people who suffered hardships worked and fought so that the next group through didn’t have to. The advantage to you in having loans forgiven is a much better economy for you to live in. A rising tide lifting all boats. If we don’t make improvements because our generation didn’t have them, then nothing would ever get better. I agree with making it universal too. The wealthy mostly pay the tuition or go on full scholarships. So it would annoy them anyway!
Sally
@Kent: Seconded
E
This is great. However, there is a problem with forgiving student loan debt only to people who went to public universities. I purposely went to CUNY as an undergrad to avoid student loan debt. But for grad school I had no choice but to go to a private college. That’s where all my debt is from. And even now, in my forties, yes, I am still being crushed by student loan debt. So that above plan really doesn’t do anything for me specifically. However, I am on income based repayment, but the problem with that is the debt that gets forgiven after 20 years is taxed as income. I wish they would just exempt student loan debt that is Forgiven from being taxed as income. That would help me.