Today we kick off the Final Episode of the 8-part Guest Post series: Military Life: Two Perspectives
In case you missed the introduction to the series: Military Life: Two Perspectives with Leto and Avalune, An Introduction
You can find the whole series here: Military Life: Two Perspectives with Leto & Avalune
The topic today is It’s a Wrap, with Leto & Avalune. We get to hear from both of them, just as we did in the introductory post.
Before we jump into the final post…
I want to offer my profound thanks to Leto & Avalune for the time and effort they put into this, and for the thoughtfulness that has been apparent throughout. I have loved this series, a window into a world that is not my own, touching me in unexpected ways. Now with exceptional storytelling! It’s my hope that others who participated have appreciated it, too. ~WaterGirl
Avalune
I’m sitting here staring out the window while a cursor flickers in front of me. I’m like the dog when she pretends something is very interesting in the distance and it’s definitely not your food but if you happen to want to give her some food… All the other subjects have been easy; deployment, moving, and work. Easy to write about, easy to be reasonably clever. But we’re supposed to wrap it up and I still haven’t talked about it.
It. What is it exactly? It’s an idea. It’s a feeling. I don’t have the smooth words. I don’t have the fully functioning sentences. It’s all red colors and the smell of spent fireworks. It’s not patriotism exactly but I don’t know what else to call it. I put off writing this post. We had more things to say but didn’t know how to say them and work became busy because the people in charge suddenly realized that if everyone is trapped in proximity to their work computer, they can be at work at anytime and if everyone is just glad they still have a job, they can be at work all the time, and it was so much easier to not say them at all.
But we’re here, you and I. You and us. So how do we put this?
I want to be proud of our service. Of his service. It is a sacrifice. I won’t lay out why or how it is a sacrifice again, you all know that. I’m not here to trigger your liberal guilt. I don’t want a parade. I don’t want a medal. I don’t want to be held up on a pedestal. I want to believe that we accomplished something bigger than us and for the good of the people. We dedicated ourselves to this country, like so many others, and we just want it to meansomething. It was a huge part of our lives and continues to be.
The military was built to be a weapon but now it is also a weapon of a different kind. We are an idea. We are a purebred dog, trotted around the ring when someone wants to make a statement, or confuse the topic and get away with something. We are a cultish icon. The Troops. We are deflection. Think of the troops! We are a shield for cowards to hide behind. We are stuck in middle. Our patriotism and pride turned against us, twisted.
We’re in the middle.
I was taking around a laboriously hand drawn poster for signatures. It was almost Veterans Day and the poster was to thank the troops. As an adjunct signed the board he proceeded to tell me that military members are nothing. They are just men, they are no better than anyone else and they need to remember that. He told me he spent a lot of time in his class telling veterans that they didn’t go up on a pedestal. It was a job, lots of people had jobs and were away for their jobs, so that sacrifice was no better than any other sacrifice. The part of me that hates the pedestal agreed with not putting military on pedestals but another part of me was screaming, but do you have to worry about missiles being fired over your workplace while you stand up there on your own pedestal of privilege shitting on the veterans in your classroom? Yes, totally, the Kuerig being out of K cups being the biggest problem of your day is totally just like watching a helicopter full of people from a bombed wedding.
So how do you reconcile that?
?
Leto
I both love and loathe the Veterans discount at stores. I like saving money, who doesn’t, but at the same time it’s a no brainer, throw away item. It doesn’t cost the store anything. There’s no real sacrifice to it. It’s a marketing ploy designed to make it look like a certain store/brand cares. When we were living overseas, one of the standard force protection measures was to minimize your presence. Don’t talk about being in the military, don’t talk about your job, try not to stick out. What that means is that you don’t ask to see if a store has a discount for you. After 6 1/2 years, the thought of asking for that became a foreign concept. When we did return, that attitude was still there.
It was extremely hard for me to volunteer that information up to a cashier, and it still is. I get that they want to recognize my service, same as the police/firemen/emergency responders, but at this point, almost 19 years after 9/11, it feels like another simple transaction. Like I’m entering my reward points number at the local grocer. There’s a hollowness to it.
On an individual level, I think there’s an appreciation. I think most of their “thank you for your service” responses are genuine, even though I’m like so many of my peers/generation that absolutely hate that phrase. I try to remember that they’re trying the best they can, although I’m hoping it’s that and not some automated response (“Thank you for your service, beep boop!). I feel like a lot of the patriotism around the military has become an automated response. Another consequence of the post-Vietnam guilt response from our country.
I’m proud of my service, proud that I served my country, proud that my family was as strong and resilient as they were/are, but I also don’t want to wallow in that forever. It’s but one facet of me. I’m taking my cue from previous generations: they came home, put down their weapons, and picked up building instruments. There’s a reason so many vets go into professions like teaching, building, and the crafts. They want to continue to serve, they have a need to serve. It’s that service, the one to help build a better community/nation/world, that I want to thank.
?
Leto & Avalune
As we close this out we’d like to take this opportunity to thank WaterGirl and John for giving us a chance to talk to everyone about this.
And we want to thank you. All of you who read this series, or even parts of this series. The other military vets and families who chimed in with stories about their lives in the service or service adjacent. Thank you for your compliments and encouragement. Thank you for seeing us, because when it’s all said and done, that’s what we want. Not the parade in our honor. Not “Thank you for your service.” Not the liberal guilt. We just want to be seen and understood.
Avalune and Leto Were Here
?
Leto
Awww, thank you WaterGirl! It’s been an honor :)
Spanky
Well, thank you for your posts!
FWIW, what you say about service and the semi-automated thanks that get blurted your way closely match what I’ve heard from active and retired military of l branches that I worked with at that big installation along the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, as well as in our neighborhood. I find that go-to phrase to be pretty cheap now, too.
Yutsano
I have friends who are in. I have friends who are out. The phrase “Thank you for your service” either generates mild bemusement or outright resentment with them. At this point, to me, it’s a platitude. It’s lost most of its intended meaning. I can’t bring myself to say it anymore out of respect for them.
Baud
Thanks to both of you for sharing and WaterGirl for arranging.
CaseyL
This was a fascinating and eye-opening series of posts. I knew military life was disruptive: everyone grows up hearing about “Army brats,” but reading the up-close and personal stories fills in that vague “everyone knows” with details, perspectives, and emotion.
I’m grateful Avalune and Leto were willing to open such a large window into their lives, and share the view with us.
WaterGirl
@CaseyL:
No kidding! I, for one, want to punch that adjunct who seems to think it’s part of his job to demean all the people who actually risk their lives and get things done. I guess he took the “How to Motivate Those Who Serve” seminar from the prick who thought it was a good idea to fly to Guam to tell the troops how unimportant they are and that they should be willing to give their lives so the so-called President doesn’t look bad.
Avalune
@Baud: Thank you sir. Baud 2020!
@CaseyL: Thank you. We are glad you enjoyed the series.
Avalune
FYI – Leto asked me to apologize on his behalf, as he will temporarily abandon the post. An elderly neighbor was about to make the journey to the store but her oil light came on, so she asked if Leto would check it. She’s almost completely out of oil in her car and her dog is out of food. He was already planning to journey out for some things for us, but now he has another mission.
I am still here though! WEROIWJIFWJEOI jumble of letters that means military stuff! Pew pew! Hoo-rah! Guns! Bombs! Salute!
susanna
Well-done, Avalune and Leto. Thanks to you both as well as to WaterGirl.
Auntie Anne
This series was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing.
zhena gogolia
Thank you for this series. I am looking forward to the book!
It means something. Boy, does it mean something.
WaterGirl
@Avalune: Look for the helpers.
AliceBlue
Thanks to you both from this child of the air force.
Meyerman
Thanks Avalune and Leto for sharing your stories with us. The stories of those who serve and their families are frequently shared with spin and distortion by others. I appreciate the chance to hear from you both directly. And thanks for helping out your neighbor!
Zelma
What a wonderful series this was, especially for all of those who have had little contact with people who have served or little understanding of what military life entails. My contemporaries – both older and a bit younger – were the last generation for whom military service was relatively widespread. I had more than a few friends and relatives who served and a couple who made it a career. For all of them, for good or for ill, it was a life altering experience.
As I’ve said in other responses to these posts, it is not necessarily good for the country that we have delegated military service to a very small percent of our population. We are demanding a sacrifice from them that most of us do not really comprehend. And so we use that hackneyed phrase, “Thank you for your service.” But do we make sure that veterans have the services they need? Do we insist that military families have decent housing and aren’t dependent on food stamps? Do we take care of those who are serving? Talk is cheap.
Also, it is politically dangerous when those in the military and those who have served see themselves and/or are seen as separate from the rest of society with different interests and ideals. We have been lucky in this country that the principle of civilian control of the military is so engrained. But our luck could run out as recent events have suggested.
Another Scott
Thank you both. This was great.
Cheers,
Scott.
FelonyGovt
Thank you both so much. It’s been so helpful and eye-opening. And a question: if “Thank you for your service” sounds rote and thoughtless, is there anything one could say to a person in uniform that would convey sincere appreciation without sounding hollow?
Mary G
I haven’t commented much, because some of the stories have brought up a lot of the feels I have about the Marine Vietnam vets my dad brought home for lunch on Sundays after they came to our church. (obligatory FUCK LBJ for Raven).
My mom was an amazing cook who recruited two of her best friends’ teenaged daughters to help. One was the town beauty queen and the other was a gorgeous girl who became a newscaster in Chicago, so it shortly turned into a mob scene. After a couple of incidents their fathers withdrew their help and it settled down to just a few regulars, a couple of whom became my temporary big brothers.
One was an incredibly handsome guy who ended up marrying the beauty queen. After he got out he became a teacher and I had my fleeting moment of cool when he substituted in my freshman English class and greeted me by name and I said “Hi, John” to the glamorous Mr. Doe!
When they shipped out they would leave stuff with us, including a green Triumph convertible my mom drove that I loved riding around in. Another lived with us for two years while he went to community college after my mom and dad forbade him to reenlist and go back for a third tour. He is the only one still alive. The difference between the sweet boys we initially got to know and the physically and/or emotionally damaged men who came home made me a peace freak for life.
Avalune
@susanna: Gracias!
@Auntie Anne: I’m very glad to hear it. Thank you for listening.
@zhena gogolia: The book! How daunting to think about. Thank you very much.
@AliceBlue: It would have been fun to hear from “The Boy” on his perspective but “The Boy” would hem and haw and say he didn’t know what to say most likely. I know being a young person in a military family is not easy. Thank you.
@Meyerman: We definitely hate being spun and used as political pawns, which is unfortunately so frequently the case in our current political climate. I long for the days when that isn’t so but in the meantime, we’re out here trying to put human faces on the pawns. Thank you.
@Zelma: As we’ve both also said, we agree, some sort of mandatory service would be a very good thing for our country. Given we can’t even get people to stay in their damned houses for a couple weeks without boo-hoo-in on the TV about how they can’t buy fertilizer (THE HORROR!!! Go home you @#$@#$ baby!) and chanting LIBERATE US WE MATTER etc. I don’t see how we’d ever be able to get half the population to see the good of such a service. SLAVE LABOR! FREEDUMBS!
@Another Scott: Thank you muchly sir.
Avalune
@Mary G: Thank you for that beautiful story and I appreciate your having read our posts despite the difficult feelings they produce.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Great series of posts. You two tell captivating stories.
MoCA Ace
Thank you for your… posts. Seriously.
As a non military member from a large family with very few veterans this has been eye opening and much appreciated. I see you.
Avalune
@FelonyGovt: That is a million dollar question. It’s tough because we know, as Leto said, that a lot of people say it because they are genuinely appreciative and may not be aware the phrase has become a bit tainted. I don’t mean to make people feel badly about saying it.
That said, we inwardly cringe when it is said. We’re like half humbled and half cringing when we hear it. I’m not sure. Any other military vets have any thoughts on that? I’ll also ask Leto what he thinks when he returns.
Whatever the outcome, we CAN usually tell when it’s heartfelt and thank you for listening and caring and just wanting to find a better way to convey it.
raven
You probably don’t know that we have a genuine grunt right here a BJ who almost never comments about anything in the military realm. Soonergrunt has come and gone and, sometimes, comes back but there is a person here who remains quiet about the whole thing. One of the reasons I became part of the anti-war movement was that I wanted that shit ended and to bring my brothers (it was almost all men then). I’ve been sorely disappointed in how right wing vets have become but I guess it shouldn’t be a surprise. Thank you two for this great series.
Avalune
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Very kind of you, thank you for reading.
@MoCA Ace: We see you too. Thank you very much.
Avalune
@raven: We are rather disappointed in the number of right wing vets too. It feels like they are shooting off their noses to spite their face and you just want to slap some damned sense into them.
Thank you very much. We appreciate you.
I also hope that we haven’t done a disservice to any of our comrades. They mean a lot to us.
Omnes Omnibus
Thanks, Leto and Avalune for starting this discussion. And thanks to WaterGirl for proctoring the exam.
Military service means something different for everyone who serves. And soldiers’ stories are always partially bullshit. Sometimes it is because no one who didn’t have their experience could really understand and they don’t know how to explain. Sometimes it is because they don’t feel like they did anything special that the people around them didn’t do. Sometimes it is because the story just sounds better that way – funnier, more exciting, more disgusting, just better. And sometimes they want to make themselves look good. Soldiers are no better or worse than anyone else. Some the best and some the shittiest people I have known in my life were fellow soldiers. Military service can be a vocation or just a job or sometimes both at once.
My time in the army gave me a lot of valuable experiences, both good and bad. I was excited to go in and I was very happy to get out. OTOH, Go Army. Beat Navy.
WaterGirl
@Mary G: Lovely stories, Mary G!
satby
Great series! My foster son never talked much about his multiple combat tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, so this gave me a little insight into what his life was like, and the stresses that broke his marriage apart.
Thank you both!
Avalune
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes! All of that.
That especially resonates. That’s part of the difficulty of this post in particular – it is special but also not anything different from what so many other people have done, are doing, will continue to do.
Avalune
@satby: Thank you. Marriage can be tough in the best situations but the stress, solitude, growing on different trajectories, can sometimes prove to be too much.
ThresherK
I haven’t commented on this eye-opening series as I have no experience of my own to add, but stealing Col. Bob Bateman’s phrase, coined when yellow ribbons on everything was a cheap way to show “support”, that we have been “a military at war, not a nation at war“.
Barbara
I really appreciate your willingness to open up your lives to us. I am probably like a lot of people who feel ambivalent about our military culture but it’s not for lack of respect and gratitude for individuals who serve. It’s just that when people say things like “freedom is never free,” I feel an almost kind of despair, because I don’t feel like the deployment of military resources over the last 20 years had done much to advance the cause of freedom. There is so much incentive for politicians to roll up the wisdom of policies or lack thereof with the sacrifices of people like Leto and Avalune, such that challenging the use of military in particular circumstances is twisted around as an accusation of not supporting those who are carrying out the mission. I really hate that.
Haroldo
Absolutely stunning. Needs to be published.
Avalune
@ThresherK: Ugg! I temporarily got sucked into the yellow ribbon craze but thankfully avoided the see my husbands old uniforms into purses and aprons phase.
Avalune
@Barbara: We understand that ambivalence- heck sometimes we are ambivalent ourselves. We’ve only been “at war” for what feels like a lifetime. Threatcon Bravo starts to be meaningless when you are in it all the time.
Avalune
@Haroldo: Thank you very much for saying so.
Avalune
@WaterGirl: please fix my “bread” dog before my head explodes?
Although it’s kind of funny. Kind of like a wiener dog but a loaf of bread.
Madeleine
Thank you, Leto and Avalune, for letting us into the lives you led in the military. What you said felt honest and real, and you’ve both written so beautifully. Thanks, too, to Water Girl for arranging their series. And thanks, too, to all the commenters who contributed your military experiences. I hope you will make it a book.
Yutsano
@Avalune: My grandfather has his original World War II uniform in a shadow box. He also has a bunch of memorabilia from the various places he visited. I also learned he was involved in one of the first peace missions with the UN! We really need to get him and Adam together while he can still tell his stories. Although he’s doing pretty damn good for 100!
MomSense
Hey just want to say thank you for sharing these posts with us. I’ve been sharing them with some of my clients who are navigating many of the same issues. It’s helpful for people to know that they are not alone.
Avalune
@Madeleine: Thank you for the kind words.
@Yutsano: Wow! That’s great. Working with the old stuff was always one of my favorite parts of working in the framing shop. So much history contained in each bit.
@MomSense: If we were able to so much as relieve one person in the knowledge that we are out here and they are not alone, then we are so very happy. Thank you for this. I see you.
Louise B.
These posts have been so thoughtful and subtle and complicated and beautifully written. Thank you!!
MomSense
@Avalune:
????
WaterGirl
@Avalune: Fixed! Wrist-slitting averted
edit: At least I hope I got to it in time. I was stirring homemade pudding for a few minutes so wasn’t watching the post.
CWZ
I feel guilty when someone thanks me for my service, and was shocked the first time someone said it to me. I always think “if you only knew!” People are saying it now because so few have served and don’t understand the military. Combat vets deserve thanks. People like me, not really. For decades I’ve joked how I served my country proudly…in the pubs of England! The Air Force for me was like IBM in blue. Did my job 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, in the prescribed uniform with the occasional “overtime” during exercises. Kept my hair cut, my boots polished, and my uniform pressed. Did what I was told. There was a lot of drinking in our spare time and quite a few of us junior enlisted were half drunk on duty the next morning. But most senior leadership had served in Vietnam and didn’t seem that concerned. Four years go by and I’m a veteran. Back then, everyone and their uncle was either a WWII, Korean War, or Vietnam veteran. It wasn’t special.
?BillinGlendaleCA
Much thanks to Leto and Avaluna for writing this series and thanks to WaterGirl for front paging it.
Embra
Stirring from lurkerdom to testify that you guys are great writers, and you write about something so important. Even if I don’t (or can’t) completely understand it all, I understand better for having read your series. Thank you.
Ruckus
@Avalune:
To answer you I’m going to do a small rant.
I got crappy pay, the possibility still of going to war and enlisted for 4 yrs active. The VA is the payback for that. Take that away and my healthcare, when I need it most, goes away. I don’t care about the thanks, I put in my time, I worked hard and never scrimped a moment of time I owed, I care about what was in my contract I signed with the government. That’s the thanks I need, to have that which we agreed to, provided. Anyone want to thank me, support the VA and stop electing total assholes who want to take away what I and everyone else was promised, I deserve that, I held up my end. I don’t need more, I don’t deserve less.
Rant over. Back to normal programing.
Ruckus
@CWZ:
Fella ahead of me in HS was drafted, did boot camp, sent to army language school in CO. They appeared to like him as they kept him there as an instructor for the rest of his 2 yrs.
He served his time, did the job they asked of him.
Just like you.
And me.
We had a commenter on BJ who joined the navy, thinking it would keep him out of Vietnam and 4 months after he went in he was on a river boat in Vietnam, brown water navy, manning a 50 cal machine gun on the bow. He went where he was sent, did his job. The military is a very large operation. Not everyone has the same job, not everyone goes to the same place.
Zelma
I wish there were some way of requiring some kind of service. My son did Americorps for a year and it was a revelation to him. Nice middle class kid learns how too many people live. Helped put him on a career trajectory into a Congressional staff position. He wanted to make things better for those kids he worked with. He still does, but he sure gets frustrated.
Avalune
@Ruckus: Ha! I kept typing some version of actions not words when I was trying to answer FG’s question. I don’t want thanked for service, I want the benefits we were promised to be safeguarded, for people to stop allowing politicians to politicize us, for right wingers to stop saying we got such cushy lives we don’t deserve when many of us are on food stamps and can’t get seen by a doctor or we’re housed in mold, or sent out without the right equipment but all that is more complicated and takes more time and I feel a little bit like an asshole saying it when someone’s just trying to acknowledge me and be nice.
Leto
Hey everyone, I’m finally back! Adventure time for sure. My neighbor’s car was totally out of oil (O.o) so while I was already going out I picked up a few quarts, as well as some dog food for her adorable pup, and a case of diet soda for her. Got back and Avalune unpacked our stuff, while I took care of our neighbor.
Read through the thread and just wanted to say thank you to everyone. Also wanted to agree with Ruckus’ recommendation: fully fund the VA (more doctors, nurses, providers), quit electing shitheads, and (my own caveat) we have to fully fund/re-engage the State Dept. The best money we can spend is through diplomacy and working out our problems ahead of time. Just like healthcare, preventative medicine (diplomacy) is so much easier/better than having to operate.
Avalune
@CWZ: Military service certainly is different in modern times so I can understand reluctance to want thanked for doing your job – much of which probably was pushing pencils vs “war” in the sense of Vietnam and Korea etc. At the same time, it isn’t that simple and you should be able accept thanks and acknowledgement.
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Thank you.
@Embra: What an honor to have lured you out of hiding! Having previously (and still sometimes) been a long time lurker I know it must be fairly important to break protocol! Thank you.
Avalune
@Louise B.: Thank you so much!
@WaterGirl: I suppose I’ll carry on living now but you cut it awful close.
texasdoc
@Avalune: I’m feeling that way right now about all the signs calling health workers “heroes”, and particularly the one sign as I leave my small subdivision that says “Heroes live here. Thanks.” There are a fair number of doctors in this subdivision, but as far as I know, we are all specialists and not on the front lines. Yes, I still see some of my patients who are on potentially life-saving chemotherapy, but my risk is very low. I would be what is called in military parlance a REMF (rear echelon m-f’er).
Ruckus
@Leto:
Great point about the state dept. I wonder how many wars could have been avoided through out history if decent diplomacy was at least tried. Looks to me like most of the warfare during my lifetime, but maybe that’s just me.
WaterGirl
@Avalune: I promise not to make pudding again while your thread is up. Oh wait, this is the last Military Life thread. Sad face.
Ruckus
@Avalune:
As I pointed out, few people actually are in combat. That we get fewer and fewer to join and still try to be whatever it is that this country thinks they are in charge of so that we have need of more than join our military and because we are understaffed and trying to be far too many places at once, people have to go far too often. And it is massively hurting a lot of them. PTSD is a real issue with a lot of vets. And it doesn’t just fix itself.
CWZ
@Avalune: Didn’t mean for it to sound negative in the least. More bewilderment than anything. I respond with “it was a pleasure – thanks!” Plus, I’m a DoD contractor so you can’t swing a cat without hitting a veteran and nobody’s thanking anybody for anything! :) So it was a shock at first.
Avalune
@Ruckus: I definitely did not intend to imply everyone is sitting at a desk – and that modern warfare isn’t as traumatic as older wars. I’m sorry it came out that way.
Avalune
@CWZ: Ah! Sorry about the mix up – hope I didn’t belittle desk work.
Avalune
@Ruckus: My badly worded response aside – more work with a smaller force is definitely a big problem. Not just for quality of work but stress levels, morale etc.
CWZ
@Avalune: BTW – I was ground radio like Leto. Was in Electronic Security Command (SIGINT) at Chicksands about a decade before we gave it back to the limeys, then Tinker Comms Sq.
Mary G
What I meant to say before starting to ramble in my comment above eas that I’ve read all of these with the greatest enjoyment, and that you both write so well I wish this wasn’t the last post I will see from you. Thanks for sharing your perspectives with us.
J R in WV
@Avalune:
As a VietNam Era vet, I enlisted voluntarily into the Navy about 10 days before the local Selective Service draft board would have drafted me into the ground-pounder group. I very much felt that I was at the point of the gun, that being the power of the national government.
So when I am told “Thanks for your service” in passing, that very much distorts the reality of my “voluntary” service. But to people younger than I it’s a very difficult think to explain the intricacies of the geopolitical implications of what it was to volunteer to serve in a military fighting what you believe is a illegal war. SO. I just don’t ever try to go there.
Fuck LBJ and the CIA boys who got us into that mire and Nixon for using it to get elected and reelected.
But for this country to fight that kind of war to support 19th century colonialism was just plain old wrong, regardless of the convoluted foreign policy manipulations executed to make it look like we were on the side of liberation angels.
HaHaHa…
Whatever the issue or question, colonialism is never the answer, Never!
ETA: And of course we still have SS draft boards to select and reject young people for the combat arms!!
There go two miscreants
Very late catching up on this post, but I definitely appreciated this series. Never was in, myself, (lucked out with a high VN era lottery number), but my parents, and numerous uncles and aunts, were in service during WW2. Rarely talked about it, so your perspective was interesting and educational. Thank you!