On Tuesday (June 2), Secretary of Defense Mark Esper and General Mark A. Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, walked with Donald Trump from the White House to St. John’s Church, where Trump posed for an awkward photo-op. To clear the way for Trump’s walk, law enforcement personnel used tear gas and rubber bullets against peaceful protesters. Milley was dressed in a battle uniform. Esper later said that Trump had tricked him into the walk.
This opens a number of questions. One is the appropriate relationship between the civilian side of government and the military, including whether military personnel should allow themselves to be used for political purposes. Esper is not military, but he is the face of civilian primacy over the military.
Another is the arbitrary use of force against protesters, which overlaps with civilian-military issues as Trump and others, like Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, call for the military to be brought in to put down demonstrations.
The military are in a difficult position. They cannot be seen to resist civilian control. Even saying directly that Trump is wrong is a line that they do not want to cross. But they have taken an oath to the Constitution, not to the President of the United States, and not to any particular person holding that office.
Active military leaders are threading that needle by issuing statements that remind their service members of their oath to the Constitution. Retired military leaders are freer to speak but often cautious to preserve the civilian-military balance. Others associated with the military in some way are also speaking out. Politicians, on the other hand, have an obligation to speak out against offenses to democracy. The Republicans among them have been the most silent.
From his history in office, we can expect none of this to affect Donald Trump very much, although some of his actions in the past may have been modified somewhat by outside opinions. And most of the public will never see most of these statements. Their importance is that they give permission to others to speak out.
More statements appear every day. Republicans have enabled Trump through his presidency, specifically Republican senators. They are ultimately the ones who can make a difference in Trump’s behavior. They chose not to do so in the impeachment trial. Perhaps the military can remind them of their oath of office.
Here’s a list of those who have spoken out and a short excerpt from their statement. Task and Purpose has a nice list, which a jackal sent me, and I added to.
Army Chief of Staff Gen. James C. McConville:
Every Soldier and Department of the Army Civilian swears an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That includes the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. We will continue to support and defend those rights, and we will continue to protect Americans, whether from enemies of the United States overseas, from COVID-19 at home, or from violence in our communities that threatens to drown out the voices begging us to listen. To Army leaders of all ranks, listen to your people, but don’t wait for them to come to you. Go to them. Ask the uncomfortable questions. Lead with compassion and humility, and create an environment in which people feel comfortable expressing grievances. Let us be the first to set the example. We are listening. And we will continue to put people first as long as we are leading the Army. Because people are our greatest strength
Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday:
First right now, I think we need to listen. We have black Americans in our Navy and in our communities that are in deep pain right now. They are hurting. I’ve received emails, and I know it’s not a good situation. I know that for many of them, they may not have somebody to talk to. I ask you to consider reaching out, have a cup of coffee, have lunch, and just listen.
The second thing I would ask you to consider in the Navy we talk a lot about treating people with dignity and respect – in fact, we demand it. It’s one of the things that makes us a great Navy and one of the things that makes me so proud of all of you every single day. But over the past week, after we’ve watched what is going on, we can’t be under any illusions about the fact that racism is alive and well in our country. And I can’t be under any illusions that we don’t have it in our Navy.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein:
Every American should be outraged that the conduct exhibited by police in Minneapolis can still happen in 2020. We all wish it were not possible for racism to occur in America … but it does, and we are at a moment where we must confront what is.”
[W]hat happens on America’s streets is also resident in our Air Force … Sometimes it’s explicit, sometimes it’s subtle, but we are not immune to the spectrum of racial prejudice, systemic discrimination, and unconscious bias. We see this in the apparent inequity in our application of military justice.
We will not shy away from this … As leaders and as Airmen, we will own our part and confront it head on.
National Guard Bureau Chief Gen. Joseph Lengyel:
I am sickened by the death of George Floyd. I am horrified his six year old daughter will grow up without a father. And I am enraged that this story—of George Floyd, of Philando Castile, of Trayvon Martin, and too many others—keeps happening in our country, where unarmed men and women of color are the victims of police brutality and extrajudicial violence.
…
Everyone who wears the uniform of our country takes an oath to uphold the Constitution and everything for which it stands. If we are to fulfill our obligation as service members, as Americans, and as decent human beings, we have to take our oath seriously. We cannot tolerate racism, discrimination, or casual violence. We cannot abide divisiveness and hate. We cannot stand by and watch. We ask for the intercession of what Abraham Lincoln called ‘the better angels of our nature.’ Join me.
Commander of the Pacific Air Forces Gen. Charles Q. Brown, Jr.
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Kaleth Wright:
What happens all too often in this country to Black men who are subjected to police brutality that ends in death…could happen to me. As shocking as that may sound to some of you, I hope you realize that racism/ discrimination/ exclusion does not care much about position, titles or stature…. so yes, it could happen to you, or one of your friends, or your Airmen, or your [non-commissioned officer in charge], your Flight Chief, your Squadron Commander or even your Wing Commander. [Thanks to Leto for providing this quote.]
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley:
We all committed our lives to the idea that is America. We will stay true to that oath and the American people.
With great sympathy, I want to extend the deepest of condolences to the family and friends of George Floyd from me and the department. Racism is real in America and we must all do our very best to recognize it, to confront it, and to eradicate it.
…
I say this not only as secretary of defense but also as a former soldier and a former member of the National Guard: The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort – and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.
Former Defense Secretary James Mattis:
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society.
This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen:
It sickened me yesterday to see security personnel—including members of the National Guard—forcibly and violently clear a path through Lafayette Square to accommodate the president’s visit outside St. John’s Church. I have to date been reticent to speak out on issues surrounding President Trump’s leadership, but we are at an inflection point, and the events of the past few weeks have made it impossible to remain silent.
Whatever Trump’s goal in conducting his visit, he laid bare his disdain for the rights of peaceful protest in this country, gave succor to the leaders of other countries who take comfort in our domestic strife, and risked further politicizing the men and women of our armed forces.
Retired Navy Adm. James G. Stavridis:
Our active duty military must remain above the fray of domestic politics, and the best way to do that is to keep that force focused on its rightful mission outside the United States. Our senior active duty military leaders must make that case forcefully and directly to national leadership, speaking truth to power in uncomfortable ways. They must do this at the risk of their career. I hope they will do so, and not allow the military to be dragged into the maelstrom that is ahead of us, and which will likely only accelerate between now and November. If they do not stand and deliver on this vital core value, I fear for the soul of our military and all of the attendant consequences. We cannot afford to have a future Lafayette Square end up looking like Tiananmen Square.
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin E. Dempsey:
America’s military, our sons and daughters, will place themselves at risk to protect their fellow citizens. Their job is unimaginably hard overseas; harder at home. Respect them, for they respect you. America is not a battleground. Our fellow citizens are not the enemy.
Former Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Robert Neller:
I cannot get out my mind the lack of emotion on the faces of the officers as Mr. Floyd said repeatedly, ‘I can’t breathe.’ And all this transpiring while others called out for the officers to let him up, though none physically intervened.
At the same time, it is with some understanding but again sadness I watch the destruction of neighborhoods in our Nation as demonstrators, most local citizens, but including some professional agitators, express their anger and frustration over another killing of a black man by police that, to the great majority of Americans it was clear, did not have to die. At the same time some violate the law by attacking police, looting and burning businesses in their communities, many of which are unlikely to return or rebuild. You are justifiably angry.
Former U.S. Special Operations Command Gen. Raymond A. Thomas:
The “battle space” of America??? Not what America needs to hear…ever, unless we are invaded by an adversary or experience a constitutional failure…ie a Civil War…
Former U.S. Forces-Afghanistan commander Gen. John Allen:
The slide of the United States into illiberalism may well have begun on June 1, 2020. Remember the date. It may well signal the beginning of the end of the American experiment.
Retired Navy Adm. William McRaven:
You’re not going to use, whether it is the military or the National Guard or law enforcement, to clear peaceful American citizens for the president of the United States to do a photo op. There is nothing morally right about that.
Within the administration, other generals and military leaders have spoken out both against racism and policy brutality and to reaffirm their commitment to upholding the constitutional rights of citizens regardless of their orders.
Former Commander of ROK-US Combined Forces Gen. Vincent K. Brooks
The recent actions by the President of the United States, in threatening the commitment of active duty troops for law enforcement if governors were not tough and did not “dominate the streets,” and in maneuvering the two most senior leaders of the U.S. military – the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff – into a position that politicized them by their presence during a time of active demonstrating and contested crowd control, breached this sacred trust.
UPDATE: More than 280 former senior diplomats and military leaders
Many of us served across the globe, including in war zones, diplomats and military officers working side by side to advance American interests and values. We called out violations of human rights and the authoritarian regimes that deployed their military against their own citizens. We condemn all criminal acts against persons and property, but cannot agree that responding to these acts is beyond the capabilities of local and state authorities.
William Perry, Secretary of Defense under President Bill Clinton
I support the right of protesters to demonstrate peacefully, and deplore the suggestion that our military should be used to suppress them. The U.S. military is a powerful force that has served our nation well, in war and in peace. But it was never intended to be used against American citizens, and it was never intended to be used for partisan political purposes.
Former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly
Says he agrees with Mattis and “I think we need to look harder at who we elect. I think we should look at people that are running for office and put them through the filter: What is their character like? What are their ethics?”
US Ambassador to the UK, Robert Wood Johnson
Appointed by Trump. Issued a letter of support to those peacefully protesting in solidarity with the ‘Black Lives Matter’ movement in the UK, expressing his grief over the killing of George Floyd by police officers in Minneapolis in May.
Robert Kagan, neoconservative historian at Brookings Institution
Dictators rule by controlling the “power ministries”: the domestic police and intelligence services, foreign intelligence services, and armed forces. U.S. democracy has been sustained by a strong tradition of ensuring that the power ministries serve the Constitution and the broader interests of the American people, not the political and personal interests of the individual in the White House.
This has been a tradition, however, not an ironclad guarantee.
Senator Lisa Murkowski, Alaska
“When I saw General Mattis’ comments yesterday I felt like perhaps we are getting to a point where we can be more honest with the concerns that we might hold internally and have the courage of our own convictions to speak up.” Although she says she is still “struggling” with whether to support Trump.
Im placing holds on 2 Trump Admin noms until I get reasons 4firing 2 agency watchdogs as required by law. [From Twitter]
Open thread!
Cross-posted to Nuclear Diner
Washington DC Mayor Is BadAss
germy
I didn’t know this:
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I’ve seen online people like the protesters and anybody else left of center being called “communists” by evidently young people. I worry how much of this crazy filth has seeped into the rank and file military in the political environment of the last 3-4 years.
It could be entirely possible for some of them see beating up/killing “communist agitators” as being compatible with the oath they took to the Constitution. “All enemies foreign and domestic“and all
Am I being paranoid?
Cheryl Rofer
senyordave
@germy: Does that mean that the NYT editorial staff asked Cotton to write an op-ed and suggested he espouse that position?
Carlo
Reading between the lines, I’d say that the message being issued to the military by current and former senior officers is “be prepared to recognize, and to choose to disobey, an illegal order.” They can’t say that explicitly (especially the active-duty officers), but how else could such messages be interpreted by more junior personnel?
Leto
I’d like to add Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force (top enlisted person) Kaleth Wright’s response:
The struggle with
can be read about here: The Air Force is getting blasted by its own service members for trying to cover up institutional racism
Jinchi
@germy: So they’re creating both sides of the argument they think we should all read?
Cheryl Rofer
@senyordave: I would like to see a better confirmation of that, but, if true, it would likely mean that an op-ed editor saw the tweets and asked Cotton to write them up as an op-ed. I’ve had editors do that for some of my tweets.
germy
@senyordave:
Even the editor (who didn’t read the piece) doesn’t know the answer to your question:
germy
@Cheryl Rofer:
Cheryl Rofer
@Leto: Thanks! Added up top!
Cheryl Rofer
@germy: Saw that! Would like more confirmation.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Esper was a cheap lobbyist before this job. Another bad hire
Biden will have to sack Milley for his incompetence. Only a real clown would participate in such a foreseeable disaster.
Jinchi
Smart move. It seems pretty obvious that if you dress policemen up in battle gear and arm them with anti-riot weapons, they’re bound to treat protesters as the enemy. People use the tools you give them.
I don’t suppose there are any cities where they tried the opposite tactic, sending police out in standard uniform with no weapons at all, like a British policeman.
HumboldtBlue
2020 Hellscape Bingo!!
Hoodie
@germy: So, the idiots painted themselves into a corner and were too chicken to tell Cotton that the resulting piece might be a better fit for the Volkischer Beobachter than the Times. Sometimes it’s hard to fathom the profound stupidity of the people running major media outlets.
germy
CaseyL
I’m glad to hear the AF is issuing statements in support of POC in their forces.
Back in the Aughts, during the war in Iraq, there were a lot of stories about high numbers of dominionists and evangels taking over the USAF. It was worrisome at the time, with people like Gen. Boykin (Army) likening the war to a holy crusade against Islam. There was genuine concern that the armed forces were becoming hotbeds of RW crazies.
That died down during the Obama Administration, when (one hopes) his top commanders weeded that shit out. Now I worry about it again, particularly with the white evangels literally worshiping T* as God’s Chosen. If there are enough of those in the military, T* could call for martial law and be happily obeyed.
So it is good to hear so many top commanders pushing back.
JPL
@germy: Apparently they are throwing someone under the bus for approving it. I can’t find the article but the editor is a twenty-five year old that came from Weekly Standard.
Patricia Kayden
scott (the other one)
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Because I actually know the definition of “communist,” I can honestly say that, no, I’m not one. But if that word now means someone who’s against the brutal, violent, racist treatment of Americans at the hands of an unaccountable and out of control police force, well, then, yeah, I guess I’m okay with you calling me that.
Miss Bianca
@CaseyL: RWNJ Dominionist culture is still pretty strong in Colorado Springs, where a major Air Force base is located. Though it does seem like the AF was at least trying to address the problem in their ranks.
pamelabrown53
@Leto:
Thank you, Leto, for your wonderful contribution to this post.
germy
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bv8n3z/new-york-times-staffers-grill-leadership-over-tom-cotton-op-ed-during-all-hands
JPL
Trump is going to continue using the military for photo ops and no one will stop him. Words have little power with the bunker baby.
btw Gen. Powell is going to be on State of the Union on Sunday. I assume he’ll discuss the politicalization of the military also. The politicalization that occurred during the Vietnam War almost destroyed the country. I know that Powell was part of that at the time, but his speaking out against trump is still a good thing.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Leto: That’s a great statement.
Miss Bianca
@germy: Aaand, just because this meme NEVER gets old…here’s what James Bennet *actually* said…
IT WASN’T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD!!
LaenCleardale
@Leto: That was the first message I saw from any higher command. I’ll slam on the Air Force all day, but he lead the way far before any of the other branches.
Patricia Kayden
@germy: The NYT is trash and has been for quite some time. I’m wondering what angle they’ll use to email server Biden’s campaign.
Leto
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: Agreed; Esper had already abandoned his Army Core Values but finally realized what a fuck up it was, gave an absolute laughable defense (didn’t realize where we were going/thought we were going to inspect the bathrooms), and is now trying to salvage what he never had. As Kay has stated, they ALL lie, all the time. Big/small, important/inconsequential… doesn’t matter, they lie. It’s corrosive to everything.
Geoboy
@Miss Bianca: Colorado Springs is the home of the Air Force Academy.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Well, hyperbolic fretting is your default mode, isn’t it?
mrmoshpotato
Tricked him?
Our government is being run by 4-year-olds.
germy
@JPL:
Interesting, I didn’t know that.
Uncle Cosmo
What planet have you been living on, Sparky? The FTFNYT has been auditioning for the post of Herrenvölkischer Beobachter, Amerikanische Auflage since the 1920s when they were playing huggybear/kissyface with Mr Schicklgruber. The Sulzbergers have always aspired to publish the Paper of Dreckord for the Global Oligarchy Project.
Leto
@Dorothy A. Winsor: it is, and it’s part of the reason that the enlisted force would swim through molten lava if he were to ask.
@LaenCleardale: Agreed.
Miss Bianca
@Geoboy: Ah, right. Seems like most of the time I’m trying to forget that. Between that place and Focus on the Family, Springs has a weird energy. Fortunately, enough hippie freaks have moved as a counterweight to evangelical freaks that it’s starting to become almost cool.
germy
@Patricia Kayden:
Mr. Epstein (New York Times political reporter) is a friend of Maggie H, and here’s the direction he’s going:
I like Soledad O’Brien’s reply to him.
Jinchi
What ever happened with the West Point graduation? I remember them ordering all the graduates back to quarantine ahead of time, and a couple tested positive, but haven’t heard about it since.
MisterForkbeard
@Patricia Kayden: “Biden says 15% of Americans are terrible people” is the attempt of the day.
They already tried with Ukraine. Then Tara Reade. Now they’re down to taking quotes out of context and displaying them in the most risible way.
Uncle Cosmo
FTFY. Geezy, Loweezy!
Salty Sam
Nope. A fellow I worked with a few years ago used “communist!” as his go-to derisive term for anyone who did not share his ultra-conservative beliefs. He often used it in a humorous way, to get a laugh, but it rang true to his beliefs.
Calouste
@Jinchi: British police officers are actually trained in unarmed combat. American police officers aren’t trained in much of anything.
hueyplong
@Jinchi: Hasn’t happened yet. I had same question and consulted the intertubes last night.
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: The Business section of the NYTimes has an article on the entire debacle. NYTimes Bennet did not even read the piece. I think that they are all covering their butts so to speak but I assume Rubenstein is going to have to return to his old job.
Hoodie
@Uncle Cosmo: Maybe, but I tend to subscribe to Hanlon’s Razor or, in the absence of that, to the idea that most people act more out of fear than malice. The members of the press I know tend to have an almost childlike blind spot about balance and the Marketplace of Ideas like it’s something bestowed on them by Big Bird on Sesame Street. I do suspect, however, a lot of the posturing is self-protective. Tough to be in the paper business these days, they’re all scared of being out on the street.
Kent
The NYT has 25 year old editors that they hired from the Weekly Standard?
WTF?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
Is that some kind of joke? “Hyperbolic fretting”? My “default mode”? That was uncalled for
Wapiti
@mrmoshpotato: After convincing Secretary Esper that they were going to inspect a damaged restroom, Trump did the trick where he stole Esper’s nose.
gwangung
This fucking incenses me.
I’ve had relatives die under Mao.
I have friends flee from the North Vietnamese.
I have other friends who survived Pol Pot.
There’s nobody even CLOSE to that kind of ideology in America…and the ones who are closest live on the right.
So fuck anybody who uses communist to describe anybody on the left.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Calouste:
I think the omnipresence of guns in the US complicates the police’s attitude.
JPL
@germy: When I first saw that tweet, I thought it said Judith Miller and I went whoa!!!
Leto
@Uncle Cosmo:
FTFTFY. Geezy, Loweezy! :P
Cheryl Rofer
@JPL: Eminently fireable. But someone put him in that position, someone gave him the responsibility to approve op-eds without reading them. The reason this happened goes beyond one bad hire.
JPL
@germy: This is from Wikipedia
Rubenstein was hired as a Robert L. Bartley Fellow on the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal.[2] He was also a Public Interest Fellow, and the assistant opinion editor of the now-defunct Weekly Standard. Rubenstein was executive editor of the Jewish Insider in 2019.[4] According to his biography on the Weekly Standard‘s website, Rubenstein’s writing “has appeared in Commentary, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and National Review Online.”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Generally here at Balloon Juice the preferred and more succinct response is “Go blow a goat”.
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: The last few paragraphs were not kind to Bennet, so I doubt his job is safe. It was nice to see the NYTimes turn it over to someone in the Business section, because they got slammed with cancelations.
catclub
@germy: they don’t ask Trump, but if they did, Trump would say anyone who does not agree with him is bad. How many is that?
WaterGirl
@Wapiti:
That is absolutely perfect!
JeffH
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): @Salty Sam:
I heard one of those folks saying they used an Android phone because Apple was communist. Uh, sure…
catclub
I always think that quote abut the gist of the Bible:
Is referring to the magazine.
NotMax
@CaseyL
Tamped down, but not extirpated. Michael Weinstein has been a notably active voice pushing back for a long time. In fact, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation scored a victory just this week.
Barbara
@Patricia Kayden: What scares me the most is the evident desire of Trump, Cotton, Barr and others to pretend that the “unrest” is much worse than it is. Not to minimize the destruction of property in any manner, but compared to what we have seen previously, this is not a cause for calling in the army to “pacify” the population. My uncle never got over being in DC when the unrest started happening in the aftermath of the assassination of MLK. He couldn’t leave his hotel for three days. When he looked out the hotel window he told me he saw fires all over the city and that the sky glowed orange there were so many buildings on fire. Again, I am not minimizing what is happening with the destruction of property but they are clearly seizing on any violence anywhere as a reason to squelch all protest everywhere.
cain
@germy: So no wonder he didn’t read it, it was his fucking idea.
Salty Sam
If I didn’t make it clear in my first comment on this, I’m with Gwangun on this. Fuck those people. Rusty, sideways, whatever…
Leto
@WaterGirl: see, this is where I’m thinking: You (Esper) honestly thought this line would be an acceptable defense? That the President was going to take you, and the assembled idiots there, to go inspect a bathroom? Who are you, Larry Craig? Just because you’re a fucking idiot, don’t assume the rest of are. JFC…
Cheryl Rofer
Gonna be interesting to see how Trump responds to this
Kay
My youngest is at a protest in our 70% Trump town. There are only about 20 out- all teens or twenties. He didn’t want me to go with- he’s 17.
I just texted him to see how it’s going and he said “more heckling than you would guess”
So optimistic. I would have “guessed” a lot of heckling :)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I just don’t know what I said to deserve to be insulted like that by someone I’ve respected for quite a while, as long as I’ve been a commenter here. I want to think I’m misinterpreting it
If I’m being annoying I apologize. If it was a character flaw NotMax felt I had, then there were a lot nicer, more constructive ways to tell me
Gin & Tonic
@NotMax: I have a difficult time getting exercised about those gravestones. I’m not sure why those German soldiers ended up being buried in an American military cemetery, but they did. And this is erasing their history. I don’t know if they fought as conscripts or as enthusiastic volunteers, but they fought and died for their country as it was at the time.
Gin & Tonic
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): You need to grow a thicker skin.
Leto
@Barbara: they’re coordinating with Faux to help try to amplify white fear against “them”. Combination of trying to motivate their base to get out and vote, as well as exerting control (law and order!) against… well everyone. Wanna be tin-pot dictators.
PenAndKey
When I was graduating high school I seriously considered taking up a recruitment offer to attend the AFA. I got as far as getting my acceptance form packet but between when I applied and when I was accepted I did some digging into the place and realized how nuts, and dominant, the Dominionists were in the air force and Colorado Springs in general. My parents ultimately supported my choice, but they certainly weren’t happy when I sent back a declination. As a stubborn atheist since about 6th grade I just knew that I’d have gone nuts if I went there.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Gin & Tonic:
I have a thick skin. I just wasn’t expecting to be insulted by someone I consider an (internet) friend. I don’t recall doing or saying anything to deserve it. I feel like l was slapped in the face
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
It was only yesterday you stated in no uncertain terms the entire planet is unsafe for democracy.
Just sayin’.
Not looking to pick a fight; I enjoy your contributions – the perspective provided is often refreshing. Including on those occasions when a schmear of doom is spread on the verbal bagel.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I’d follow the lead of your elders, like Omnes and just say “Go blow a goat”, it’s just good manners for a jackal.
Leto
@Cheryl Rofer: when civilian control is entrusted with two worthless shitbirds… I’m honestly glad that I’m officially retired, but I still worry about my son (as well as all my friends who are still serving). Nov can’t come soon enough.
Ladyraxterinok
@CaseyL:
Mikey Weinstein’s group had many complaints of Evangelical officers and chaplains essentially taking over the AirForceAcademy. He’s a grad. IIRC one of his sons left b/c of constant Evangelical push on Jewish students to convert.
Kay
Still I’m glad they fessed up. You start to feel crazy listening to the constant lying.
Bill Arnold
@germy:
I treat the NYTimes political coverage as a variant of the Wall Street Journal editorial page, wearing camouflage.
A Marxist friend (1980s) used to subscribe to the Wall Street Journal for the non-editorial-pages coverage, which at that time was top-notch. That was pre-Murdoch.
The NYTimes ls like that; certain bylines are a guarantee of political propaganda. I seriously wonder what they think their role in America will be post-Trump.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
As I recall, it’s explicitly forbidden in the UCMJ for an officer to criticize the Commander-In-Chief.
Ah yes, here we are. Article 88, Contempt toward officials.
So I was a little surprised that there’s been as much pushback as there has been from active duty officers. One more sign of just how far over the line he is.
NotMax
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I abjectly apologize then. No insult intended, my lack of patience with Chicken Little-ing in general bubbled over.
cliosfanboy
@Gin & Tonic: i believe they were POWs who died in capitivity here.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
I appreciate you saying that.
I suppose that’s fair enough. If you go back to that thread, I said you were right, btw
Bill Arnold
@MisterForkbeard:
The most amusing part is that the pieces that do not precisely quote Biden are generally lying.
“not very good” means exactly that. They can be middling good, a little good, neutral, or various shades of bad.
cliosfanboy
@Kay: 70% WTF. Where do you live?????
Leto
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: They’re pushing back as hard as they can without being openly in full revolt. I’m glad I’m not in their position.
Martin
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: I think the nuance that Adam tries to draw us to, is that that military has a very narrow needle to thread here. In order to maintain discipline within the ranks, the determination of a lawful or unlawful order should be made by the topmost commanders. Further, saying ‘no’ to the president is equivalent to criticism because Trump will turn it into that and tweet it out to the winds. It’s very hard to not criticize the president when the president willfully lies about the interaction and 40% off the population (including an unknown number of members of the forces themselves) believes it.
And if that wasn’t hard enough, they’re being mixed in with dozens of other agencies that have very different relationships – police that don’t have the kind of consistent code of conduct and where it’s unclear if they can refuse an illegal order or not. And you have this complete shit-show of authority with Barr presumably in charge of agency police forces that he should have no relationship to. Because the public can’t tell the difference between US Army reserves, CBP officers, federal corrections riot officers, and whatever the fuck paramilitary groups the WH called in from the brother of the Sec of Education.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@NotMax:
Thank you. That’s understandable. The Chicken Littleing gets on my nerves too.
Maybe I shouldn’t take things so personally either
Leto
@Bill Arnold: this is basically the “deplorables” line being deployed. They’ll attempt to smear him the same way. Fuck’em.
Leto
@Martin: very well put.
TomatoQueen
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Nominate for rotating tag.
Ken
Secretary of Defense Jared Kushner. You have to admit, it has whatever’s the exact opposite of a ring to it.
Catherine D.
@JPL: Wait – Semi-Colin Powell will speak up? Isn’t that exceptionally late? For Vietnam or for Iraq? Or do I have the wrong Powell?
CaseyL
@Ladyraxterinok: So it’s still a thing. Damnit.
Ken
Your uncle is Meghan McCain?
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): So, i thought the response was a bit harsh, but I’ll say to you what I say to Ms Martin who pays a bit too much attention to social media during these things:
“If you wonder if you’re overreacting – you probably are.”
One of the great things about this country is that it’s really hard to get consensus on nutty things. We have a zillion formal and informal checks and balances. So yeah, you can get small groups way off of the reservation, and they can do some terrible things even in small groups (OK City) but they can’t scale.
For all of our criticisms of the media, the sheer volume of it does a pretty good job of reverting everyone to the mean – which is also why progress is such a heavy lift.
Yutsano
@CaseyL: The Air Force Academy is in Colorado Springs. Colorado Springs is also home to a number of evangelical churches. This is by design. The evangelicals want their influence in the military so they will have warriors when their Holy War comes. There’s a plan here. We just aren’t supposed to notice.
Villago Delenda Est
Cotton should be expelled from the Senate, but it will no more happen that Donald being convicted for blatantly ignoring the law.
Which means we’re going to have to do this the hard way. Through the ballot box.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Martin:
As bad as Bill Barr was as AG in the GHWB admin, he was never this bad, or so I’ve read. He made the same recommendations to the elder Bush as he has to Trump. The difference is that H.W. was a better human being than Trump. While progress has been made since, institutional and cultural norms in place back then also prevented the kind of crazy shit that is common in the Trump era now
Villago Delenda Est
@Yutsano: The USAF is infested with a fundigelical cancer totally at odds with the Constitution.
CaseyL
@Yutsano: Yes, but people go to the Academy from all over the country. Are the locals using it as a de facto state school – sending their kids there to convert cadets rather than out of any desire for an Air Force career?
RedDirtGirl
@Leto: I can’t find where, but I read that a bunch of people were present when Esper was told where they were going on Monday, and it wasn’t to inspect a damaged toilet. Did anyone else see this?
MisterForkbeard
@Bill Arnold: Yep. They’re trying hard with it.
I don’t expect it to go anywhere. People don’t seem to care, and Trump has already done 2-3 things this morning to take the focus away. Not that it’ll stop the media from regurgitating more on this, but this particular attack is probably going to be ineffective at best.
Cheryl Rofer
Here’s a report from the New York Times’s all-hands meeting today. It addresses points that have been brought up in this thread.
trnc
Kelly was unable to determine DT’s fitness for office during the 2016 campaign? Seriously?
Villago Delenda Est
@Cheryl Rofer: The only apology I’d ever entertain from Sulzberger, Baquet, or Bennet is a Captain Needa apology.
LongHairedWeirdo
If someone is struggling with whether to support Trump, they have no courage, and hence, no convictions.
I mean, *how much more damage does he have to do*?
You know, it’s not so much that the Trump administration is such an expert at gaslighting; it’s the passive gaslighting of so many other people whose first responsibility should be to the people of the United States (that’s who the Constitution is ordained and established by…), and only second to party. And while you could debate over whether widespread trade wars were good or bad, at least that’s *policy*; breaking the law, using official powers to block the investigation, and trying to strongarm an ally into a corrupt, baseless, investigation, isn’t debatable; and, remember, the entire Republican Senate caucus has told the world “and if Trump tries to strongarm you, we’ll bury it. Best to go along to get along.” (Remember: Romney voted that obstruction of the investigation was A-OK.)
Lisa Murkowski, by acting as if there’s some question of whether any decent, well-informed human being would *not* support Trump is basically saying “nothing he’s done is all that bad.”
She benefits from the vile, corrupt, administration, and she backs it with both her silence, and her speech. Removing Trump is not enough; the Republican Party needs to be utterly broken, for allowing such a corrupt, criminal, incompetent, bigot into power.
PST
@Wapiti:
I knew Trump could injure Esper’s nose by doing a couple of Kegels, but I didn’t think he could steal it altogether.
Villago Delenda Est
This is essentially what George Will, of all people, wrote the other day.
Uncle Cosmo
@JeffH: Just FTR, on one of my many bookshelves, patiently waiting its turn as bedtime reading, squats a copy of Android Karenina….
(Spotted it in a Dollar Tree, figured it was worth the buck just to have the spine next to Tolstoi’s second-most-interminable tome…)
Ken
@PST: Trump can and will steal anything that’s not nailed down. Not that I’m suggesting Esper should consider securing his nose in that way.
Yutsano
@CaseyL: It’s like what @Villago Delenda Est: said: there is a strong push for evangelicals to go into the Air Force and also the AFA. I’m not certain when it started, like were the churches there first and the AFA came next or the other way around, but it’s been a big problem for quite some time. I’m sure Leto has some feedback.
Jinchi
I’ve been flabbergasted by the things the Republican members of Congress have allowed Trump to get away with. It’s as though they assumed no Democrat would ever be elected to office again, or that they’d be too noble to use these tricks themselves.
Self preservation alone should have forced them to put up guardrails against his excesses. You know, let him steal half of everything that isn’t nailed down, instead of all of it.
Barbara
@Ken: In 1968 my uncle was in Washington DC for some kind of meeting related to his work for a government agency. He was staying in a hotel on 14th Street, which was one of the main corridors for unrest. I swear, he never got over it. He mentioned it every time I saw him after I had moved to the area. Every time I took the opportunity to tell him how different it was now. But truth be told, it took a long time for businesses in that neighborhood to recover.
Kay
@cliosfanboy:
NW Ohio. Trump was popular in rural counties. My son said he was one of only three men there- the rest were young women and girls. He said one of the men was a pastor- I know exactly which one.
eric
@Kay: sounds like your son’s a playa ;)
zhena gogolia
@LongHairedWeirdo:
I had the same reaction to her BS.
zzyzx
We’ve reached the point where Trump has threatened a mayor with military invasion (“If she [Mayor Bowser] doesn’t treat these men and women well [the National Guard troops that she’s asked to leave], then we’ll bring in a different group of men and women!”) and it hasn’t made any impact because everything else is so horrible.
Elizabelle
@Cheryl Rofer: Lot of great links in the Vice article.
And this is quite entertaining: original tweet by the execrable Barri Weiss, and a twitter thread of responses to her insults of her colleagues (and others). She calls the younger staffers “woke”. Someone asked if they are “uppity” too.
One tweet back at her:
Others suggested how David Brooks would approach an op ed proposing dictatorship for the US. I mean, since some topics that seemed to be off limits (Holocaust denial, the desirability of slavery) should be up for discussion again — why not?
Elizabelle
@zzyzx: I know. It’s a firehose of sewage.
By design. It’s their strategy.
bucachon
“I think he’s truly one of the greatest quarterbacks,” Trump continued, “but he should not have taken back his original stance on honoring our magnificent American Flag. OLD GLORY is to be revered, cherished, and flown high. We should be standing up straight and tall, ideally with a salute, or a hand on heart. There are other things you can protest, but not our Great American Flag – NO KNEELING!” https://youtu.be/hBjpPH2wmbQ
Leto
@Yutsano: from my own personal experience, there’s been a lot of pushback from the enlisted side. We have both officers/senior enlisted who want to push church as acceptable social activities. And a lot of us just weren’t having it. To the point that people just weren’t showing up. Get a day/time off for doing this activity? People would rather be at work (which is fucking saying something). Those of us who could, or were willing, would push back against it. It got better, but it’s also like everything else in society: you can’t let your guard down against it.
The Moar You Know
@NotMax: That or unrestrained dumbshittery. Goku’s literally the only poster who’s in my pie filter. And been there a long time.
Elizabelle
Just realized: Tom Cotton is up for re-election this year.
Some of the ugliness he is tweeting out is coming from his US Senator, AR twitter handle. (You know, siccing the 82nd Airborne on the protesters. Which he refers to as “insurrectionists, anarchists, rioters, and looters.”)
con traynor
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Not at all. I see accusations of “communist” all the time on Breitbart. To the people there who make comments, anyone who disagrees with Trump is communist. I’m not sure they even know what a communist is.
Baud
@Elizabelle: He’s running unopposed.
Kay
@eric:
Ha! They kicked them off the courthouse square lawn area – you don’t need a permit but you do have to reserve it but they just moved a coupla feet off it and courthouse security (sheriff’s dept) left them alone. The courthouse is actually closed Friday after noon. Not sure what they’re protecting.
Elizabelle
@Baud: OMG. That sickens me. WTF Arkansas Democrats.
Whereaway
@Miss Bianca: The Airforce Academy is also here in Colorado Springs. The Military Religious Freedom Foundation is frequently calling out illegal activity by the RWNJ Christianist officers who seem to be a dominant force in that institution. This leaves me concerned about fallout for Master Sgt. Kaleth Wright, whose essay is deeply moving.
Leto
@Elizabelle: we can ask this (WTF) about the Dakotas, Oklahoma, etc… it’s another incentive to fund our organizations at every level: local, state, and federal. I’m hoping this is another point where we help build all of these organizations.
Geminid
@Jinchi: It’s a hollowed out Republican party in Virginia. The tea party cranks and political preachers have an alliance that can dominate primaries and caucuses but is poison in general elections. Dave Brat’s defeat of Eric Cantor (Va.-7) in 2014 was a harbinger; the chamber of commerce wing that used to call the shots saw two of their congressmen, Scott Rigell (Va.-2nd) and Robert Hurt (Va.-5th) retire in 2016. They were both fairly young, but I think they just did not want to kiss tea party ass to win reelection. Abigail Spanberger flipped the 7th in 2018, and Elaine Luria flipped the 2nd. Now the 5th district Republicans are about to roll incumbent Republican Denver Riggleman in a convention, and substitute Liberty University official Bob Good. He believes in government shaped by “biblical principles.” That will go over like a lead balloon in November. Plenty of church goers and and moderate conservatives reject that kind of thinking, in addition to the liberals for whom it is a red flag. The Democrats have several good candidates competing in a primary. The Republicans chose a caucus/convention method so the fanatics can dominate. A small tent strategy for small minded people. I think they can kiss that seat goodbye. I live in the Va.-5th, but I see this dynamic in other states. The tea party movement never died; Trump turbocharged it and took over the party. The chamber of commerce types who weren’t smart enough to step away are going to have to ride the train as it wrecks. If the Democrats provide good governance- and I believe they will- the 20’s are going to be wilderness years for the Republican party.
RedDirtGirl
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): being part of an online community has its drawbacks. Hard to pick up tone and intent a lot of the time. Maybe he had a bad day.
RedDirtGirl
@NotMax: This admittedly thin-skinned jackal is glad.
Barbara
@Elizabelle: Jennifer Rubin: who the f are we to tell African Americans to pipe down?
Bari Weiss is the worst of the worst — a sanctimonious and clueless hypocrite, hiding behind vapid stereotypes that are no better than name calling.
cliosfanboy
@Kay: gotcha. Im a Dayton native and im hearing horror atories from family on the Burbs there.
sdhays
@bucachon: According to Dump, the best way to respect the flag is to hump it and give it tongue. I guess you could say he considers it a woman.
J R in WV
OK, straight to the bottom of the thread to thank Cheryl for the huge amount of work to assemble all these quotes and statements by people who should have been speaking up months or years ago. But better to speak out now than to remain quiet as things crash down all around us.
Thank you, Cheryl, for all the very hard work put into assembling this huge array of statements that support the peaceful protests all around the nation!
OT, a long time Internet friend has passed away from a battle with lung cancer. I just learned a few minutes ago. Some things never change, but as you age more and more of your friends and relatives will die of something.
Here’s hoping few more die from direct or indirect government action !!
The reason we have government is to help more of us to live long, fruitful, happy lives. I can’t think of much worse than to fear the huge power of the government.
Leto
@J R in WV: oh man, so sorry JR. Condolences.
Elizabelle
@Leto: I agree. Fifty states. Throw in: out with the Electoral College.
@Barbara: She sounds awful. Have never heard anything positive about her.
Elizabelle
@Geminid: I would LOVE to see the Democrats triumph in the fifth. Never heard of “Bob Good.” Ugh. Conventions do deliver up the whack of the whack. No mercy for the Virginia GOP. It’s not John Warner’s party anymore.
David Anderson
@Jinchi: Durham NC is doing that.
J R in WV
@Leto:
Hate to say it, but as long as the AF Academy is being run by Theo-Cratic Nut Jobs (TCNJs) the AF is going to have a racism problem. Many TCNJs actually believe that Black Americans are dark skinned because they are evil… hard to repair that relationship!
Not that the Navy is much better, they were working on it when I was in back in the early 1970s. But they sent ships to Pascagoula MS for rebuild when the liquor store had a big sign inside that said “All Proceeds from Sales to Ni**ers will be donated to the United Klans of America” … was in 1972. Imagine being a black sailor from Newark, landing in that pesthole?!!
So glad to leave MS in 1973. MS is so horrible the right wing fascist nut jobs deserve to live there. The black community should leave to anywhere else immediately.
Dan B
@Jinchi: WA state called up the Guard unarmed. They were sent to stores that had been looted. Their clubs and combat gear seemed to make the looters melt away.
James E Powell
@Kay:
A friend of mine was out in Findlay yesterday. Said it was about 30 people, half & half men & women, almost all white. Horn honks of support, nobody negative.
J R in WV
@JPL:
You are leaping to the conclusion that General Powell (who attempted to cover up the My Lai massacre of civilians a very ling time ago~!) will actually criticize Citizen Trump. I am dubious… perhaps Powell will try to improve his record, which is terrible, lies to the General Assembly of the UN.
TriassicSands
@Cheryl Rofer:
Thanks for that link. The three members of management — Sulzberger, Baquet, and Bennett are an embarrassment. As valuable as I think the Times is in many ways (I spend much more time reading articles that are not political coverage than those that are), I have called for Baquet to be fired for years. I think he’s a terrible editor-in-chief.
Given the chance to explain and defend, all three failed miserably to justify the publishing of Cotton’s fascist screed and constantly hid behind the need to be “fair.” As I’ve said many times, the obligation of the media is to the truth, not to some superficial notion of fairness. The Times constantly fails in this regard. It desperately needs new leadership.
At a time when the country’s future faces a dire threat, the Times refuses to take sides. They would have remained silent in Germany in the 30s. When a nation faces an existential threat, being seen as “independent” (to use Baquet’s word) is criminal.
Elizabelle
@TriassicSands: Agree, agree, agree. “Balance” and “Fair” when accuracy and truth are called for. It’s fingers on the scale, or fingers over the eyes.
AG is shaping up to be a worse disaster than his father was. Who was Clinton Derangement Central. And there for Judith Miller, Wen Ho Lee, emails emails emails. Pinch will admit to Jayson Blair, because the damage from that was limited.
All 3 are awful, and that’s not an accident.
FWIW re Germany: people had fun tweeting this at the Times today. You know they published it. (Excerpts from Mein Kampf.)
THE ART OF PROPAGANDA — By Adolf Hitler
By Adolf Hitler
James E Powell
@TriassicSands:
We have to infer that he is doing what the owners want him to do. The dramatic differences between coverage of Ds and coverage of Rs is blatant. They lead the nation in refusing to call Trump what he is: a liar, corrupt, unfit for office. He brags about what they are doing and scorns or ignores critics. There is no evidence that the NYT is going to be any different this election cycle.