So, this happened a while ago:
Cadet Bonespurs screeching “Respect our Military” at people who want to peel off the loser names on U.S. military installations and replace them with the names of Americans who served — rather than betrayed! — the United States is…peak something or other.
Speaking of stupid, aside from the obvious racism, there were clues that Trump was a closet Confederate before he became a politician and started pandering to mouth-breathers in the Deep South (whom he wouldn’t be caught dead with in a social situation, by the by). Here’s an idiotic monument he created to mark the spot of a non-existent Civil War bloodbath that definitely didn’t take place at one of his stupid golf courses:*
Trump is a half-witted huckster, so it’s not surprising that he’d conjure up a fake historic event to commemorate as a selling point for what is probably a substandard, overpriced course with downtrodden staff and lots of mole hills. But notice Trump goes out of his way to note that “great American soldiers” from both “North and South” died there. (They didn’t.) Very fine people on both sides!
As a Southerner, I’m all too familiar with the cognitive dissonance that enables Confederate flag wavers to consider themselves the most patriotic Americans who ever lived. But correct me if I’m wrong, Northern readers, isn’t venerating Confederates unusual for a person who was born and raised in NYC? That’s just plain weird.
Open thread.
PS: Everything currently named for Robert E. Lee should be renamed for Robert Smalls, an American hero whose derring do should be familiar to every American schoolchild.
*The Wikipedia page on the fake monument is pretty funny.
JPL
I knew that I saw Robert E. Lee land at Normandy. It was his only win
Who else landed at Normandy.. Maybe Forrest? Wait until trump finds out that the southern mayor in Sandy Springs, GA is correcting the spelling of Lake Forrest Drive to Lake Forest Drive.. How disrespectful for someone who served in the military.
Hunter Gathers
Fixed that for you
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Unusual, absolutely. Definitely not unheard of. When asked they’ll usually say something like “something something rebel, yadda yadda freedom, State Rights *fart*.”
But they’re just assholes.
Fair and Balanced Dave
Everything in Virginia currently named for the traitor Robert E. Lee should be renamed for Union General George Thomas who was from Virginia but, unlike Lee, did not betray his country.
Full disclosure: I am a descendant of a soldier who was in the 66th Pennsylvania and fought under Thomas’ command at Chickamauga.
scav
He’s certainly not only frantically pandering to his racist base to keep them on-side, he’s also frantically shoring up his he-man self esteem by jerking the military around like its his — all his! — favorite plastic toy.
Gozer
Only 1 in 4 Americans see Donald Trump as a man of faith
The Crazification Factor strikes again!
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Does worship of the self count?
mrmoshpotato
Burn in hell, Blonde Goebbels.
President Biden will let them be renamed.
NotMax
Next, executive order renaming all on-base shooting ranges for John Wilkes Booth?
//
LuciaMia
Love how when he keeps getting challenged on its validity,he retreats into the usual, “You have your facts and I have mine.” bullshit.
Ryan
Remember all the praise we heaped on city leaders when the local mayor proclaimed Joseph Stalin Square in honor of our decades long Cold War? Actually. Trump would probably go for that, bad example.
alquitti
How about Nat Turner?
alquitti
@NotMax: First someone will have to tell him who that is.
rp
Periods and commas should go inside the quotes, dumbass.
WaterGirl
It’s not even safe to go out and pick up a 2 days worth of poop anymore. In the 5 minutes (or less) that it took to do that, Trump has fucked up one more thing and betrayed his country in the process. Again.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Putting this to a live thread, I’m still livid.
OT, but I’m lighting this motherfucker up.
Two days ago, I nutted up, determined to take walk in the Louisville CBD in order to document my current lived history with my travel camera (35 mm DSLR – I actually have a little skill). Went from my boarded up office building and covered two blocks of broken windows and boarded up shopfronts to the protest site, located across the street from a pepper bullet pocked, somewhat boarded portion of my court complex. Worked my way east about two blocks, marched five blocks south. Once at my southern stop, I turned north for a block, then went a block west and came all the way back up.
The entire way, I took photos of closed and boarded restaurants, shuttered hotels, boarded up shops, bards and clubs. There was a tremendous amount of broken glass, and burn marks from trash fires were all over the streets (including directly beneath my office window). Most everything was closed, and the fun little “smart” info kiosks were all shattered, and none of the decorative trash frames have containers (plus, the recycling compactors are gone).
This downtown reminds me of Times Square the week after the ’77 blackout. Blighted as fuck. Already, several restaurants (some of which we loved) have closed forever. Frankly, it is going to take 20-30 years to bring this back. Ironically, as I was leaving, 4 to 6 LMPD cruisers pulled up to some pathetic homeless guy with a bike dragging a cart at the corner across from my building, and were really annoyed that I was taking photos of their overkill.
The City Fathers are still listening to LMPD’s bullshit. I had this to say regarding their methods yesterday:
I gently refrained from negatively referencing the Blessed Martyr Deidre Mengedoht, an officer who stupidly pulled over someone for a petty moving infraction on Christmas Eve in a completely hazardous stretch of downtown interstate, and got her dumb ass killed by a sewer truck driver who had a declining amount of his prescribed, allowable hydrocodone in his system. He still hasn’t been to trial, but they’ve renamed that stretch of road for her stupidity.
Anyway, today I learned that the white micropenis gun-toting 3%er guys (whose gun-toting presence was one of the stated catalysts for the sudden rush of teargas and pepper bullets on Sunday, May 31, particularly aftedr there were reports of “shots fired”) were in fact comprised of a number of retired LMPD and some active small local force guys. There was news video of shell casings being marked in a very odd spot around a building and away from the crowd at the time.
Smelling blood, I’m gambling on making some noise and maybe some money. Here’s my record request:
I’m taking direct aim at the cozy relationship with provocateurs and at the florid lies about urine, vomit, and laundry bleach blown with leafblowers. I’m burning several friendships with this, but given that the investigative report on Breonna Taylor was released today and is nearly blank, I don’t give a fuck.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
This, of course, will not change history. It will only change which historical figures we publicly venerate. Why is Trump so quick to defend racists and oppressive regimes?
Mike in NC
After the Civil War, monuments to Confederates popped up in a lot of places they moved to, from New York to Wyoming and beyond. They should, wherever possible, be dislodged and shipped to Merde-A-Lago.
Gallup has Fat Bastard at 39% approval, so the pandering may not work.
SiubhanDuinne
I counted 21 Unnecessarily Capitalized Words in Trump’s little Screed.
Another Scott
+1
Cheers,
Scott.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Never was in doubt he’s shifty.
;)
Fair Economist
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: You are on fire, in a good sense. Very impressed. Have you considered trying to get the homeless hassling observation into higher-reach media? I’m thinking that could be a strong visual essay.
randy khan
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
You beat me to it.
rikyrah
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Very interested in what you get back.
Roger Moore
Not quite as surprising when you remember his father was a Klan member.
Betty Cracker
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: You’re doing the lord’s work, sir. Thank you!
rikyrah
It was at the tail end of the last post, so I’ll ask here:
Any parents here made any decisions about Summer Camp?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Fair Economist:
Working on getting those photos noticed. I have some press inroads that are helpful, and some local policymakers are grimacing over my shit.
Betty Cracker
@rp: For a moment there, I thought your comment was addressed to me, and I was thinking, “Damn! The pedants are getting pretty goddamned aggressive around here!” :)
Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.)
One Thing I’ve long Wondered about is the Random Capitalization in Dimbulb’s Tweets. Winning, Victory and Freedom! Why does he do That? Did he fail fifth Grade, when they Taught him About how To use capital Letters? What’s the Deal? I want To know.
VFX Lurker
When I was a tiny tot, I watched reruns of DUKES OF HAZZARD on Michigan television. The heroes had a cool car called the “General Lee” adorned with a Confederate flag. I did not know the meaning of the name or the flag.
As a kid, I saw those Confederate symbols portrayed in a positive light without context. You could buy toys of that car. I don’t know if the Big Orange Idiot had similar experiences as a kid — Confederate figures and symbols portrayed in a positive light without context.
mad citizen
trying to post an image, did not work.
covfefe
dmsilev
Lee, Bragg, and all the others first violated their oaths as officers of the US Army and then proceeded to wage war against their country. And they lost. And they did it all in the name of being able to own people as property.
That’s the “heritage” that we’re supposed to tolerate.
Kent
Of course he was going to do this.
It is totally on-brand, just like his decision to cancel the Harriet Tubman $10 bill.
Yet one more thing to put on the list for the first 6-months of the Biden presidency.
Ruckus
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
Well shitforbrains sure qualifies on that point……
HumboldtBlue
Twitter taught me yesterday that a group of GOP senators is now known as a Coward
@Fair and Balanced Dave:
That’s where Thomas earned the name “The Rock of Chickamauga” because it was his division that held ground and prevented a Union rout.
Sphouch
With his opposition to renaming military installations, I wonder if he would support returning West Point to its prior name.
Jeffro
It’s funny you mention Smalls, Cole…I just read “Trouble The Water” about his life and escape from the South. Truly heroic indeed.
dmsilev
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): His tweeting style reminds me of this classic:
(1990s-era Usenet crank Robert McElwaine)
Ruckus
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
Not when the self being worshiped has a human value in negative numbers.
Haroldo
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
This is top flight stuff. Good luck and please give us updates on your progress.
NotMax
@VFX Lurker
Dunno if it’s still on the road or not but some years ago saw parked in a strip mall lot here a Toyota Corolla painted to match the car from that TV show.
Which didn’t work on any level.
Phylllis
Great book about Robert Smalls: Be Free or Die.
Jeffro
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): I think Frank Luntz taught him to do that, at an Amateur Propagandist’s workshop years ago.
Capital Letters are POWERFUL ;)
tokyokie
@Fair and Balanced Dave: In another forum this morning, I suggested named Fort Bragg for George Thomas. His flanking maneuvers forced Bragg to abandon Chattanooga, and when his men attacked the rifle pits at the base of Missionary Ridge, they kept on going and captured the entire mountain, forcing Bragg to withdraw to Georgia. Thomas, if you will, is sort of the anti-Bragg. Besides, former military installations have already been named for Grant and Sherman.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
But these Republicans are aghast if you would rather pay respect to these people’s victims.
Brachiator
Didn’t the North defeat the Confederacy?
It’s not like it was a college football conference game.
And didn’t we rename a bunch of stuff after the Revolutionary War?
Like King’s College to Columbia University?
Trump is a racist who clearly refuses to accommodate the sensibilities of non-white and non racist people. Even more than his base, he sees America as a white nation where other people are tolerated as long as they keep quiet.
Jeffro
@Kent: I’m ok with adding the Tubman thing to the list, since it will take what, 5 minutes and a pen stroke?
But whew, it is a LONG list. We need a tier system or something.
Roger Moore
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
I was thinking of Mammon worship.
Barbara
@Roger Moore: I have seen plenty of confederate battle flags north of the Mason Dixon Line. In my own life, I associate the prevalence of the display with the emergence of the genre referred to as Southern Rock. But I have to say, it’s not common.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I kind of grew up with the simplistic notion that Northerners were all die-hard Lincoln supporters, so it took me aback in Gangs of New York when Daniel Day-Lewis’ character expresses hatred for Lincoln and throws a knife at a poster of Lincoln. Not that we should get our history from movies, but I’m assuming that the movie was depicting something historically accurate, a segment of northern society who hated Lincoln.
I think it may have had something to do with Lincoln instituting a draft? I seem to recall there were riots about that.
But yeah, it’s a long way from there to supporting the Confederacy. I can’t figure out why people with no actual heritage or connection to the Confederacy want to celebrate the “heritage” of the Confederate battle flag.
HumboldtBlue
@Jeffro:
You can’t do Betty dirty like that.
Jeffro
@HumboldtBlue: A ‘coward’ of GOP Senators…I like it!
I learned last week that a group of Karens is called a ‘privilege’.
And people say that social media has no value… LOLOL
HuCat
Not well versed in heraldry, but is that supposed to be the family crest at the top of the sign, two rats humping a hornets nest under a winepress?
SiubhanDuinne
@Kent:
Doesn’t matter a particle in terms of your larger point about Trump, but the proposal was to put Harriet Tubman on the $20 bill, to replace the racist and genocidal Andrew Jackson. At this very moment I happen to be wearing a tee-shirt with a portrait of Tubman on the twenty, so it’s on my mind.
Jeffro
@HumboldtBlue: Whoa, I am in big trouble…my bad, Betty! 0_0
MattF
Since I was a schoolboy in Queens at around the same time Trump was, I can tell you that he learned about Peter Stuyvesant and that the English took over New Amsterdam in 1664. And, um… that’s actually all I remember. I later learned that Stuyvesant was an antisemite, fwiw.
Barbara
@dmsilev: I have a good natured argument with some of my in laws over what R.E. Lee should have done. Allowing that he would have found it difficult to fight against his neighbors, I posited that he could have taken the third option: sit it out. His participation, as well as that of other generals who trained in the U.S. Army made the war longer and bloodier than it would have otherwise been. Montgomery Meigs among other Union generals lost their own sons in the war and never forgave Lee. Meigs is the one who started burying bodies in Lee’s backyard, now known as Arlington National Cemetery.
Roger Moore
@tokyokie:
And a very well known one is named for George G. Meade.
Jeffro
So I guess trumpov found a few black supporters and is “meeting” with them this afternoon?
Yes…that will surely turn the tide, little orange man. Keep talking. We’re all looking forward to your speech on race in the very near future…
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Gozer: Isn’t that less than the number of white evangelicals?
Does that mean some of the mega-church crowd is not drinking all the Flavor-Aid that Jerry Falwell, Jr et al are peddling?
If he loses the evangelical bigots, who does he have left?
Alex
@Brachiator: They say the South lost the war and won the peace
mrmoshpotato
@Hunter Gathers: Beat me to it!
HumboldtBlue
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
There indeed were vicious and violent draft riots led by Irish immigrants and Irish-Americans primarily and the violence was particularly ugly in New York where the most violence was directed at black men and women.
FelonyGovt
Completely trivial, but is Anyone Else getting Sick and Tired of the Initial Caps All The Damn Time? Idiot
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl: Nominated!
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Summer camps are not allowed to open here in Champaign IL this summer, even if special plans are in place.
NotMax
@Jeffro
More than half expecting it to include Jared done up in blackface, giving two thumbs up while looking down, suspended from the ceiling.
West of the Cascades
Exactly what about the Confederacy and its generals says anything about “winning”?
WaterGirl
@mrmoshpotato: We might get that rotating tag past John!
henrythefifth
Those Trump tweets are pretty revealing that he has no clue about US history whatsoever.
tokyokie
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.):
Trump figures if capitalizing all nouns is good enough for German, it’s good enough for him. And not knowing a noun from a preposition, he just capitalizes everything.
joel hanes
@NotMax:
renaming all on-base shooting ranges for John Wilkes Booth?
Nah, Lincoln was a Republican
They’ll re-name them for Aaron Burr, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Sirhan Sirhan
dmsilev
Orangebaby is going to be pissed, again, at CNN:
Some quotes from the letter:
Brings to mind the classic legal letter “I feel that you should be aware that some asshole is signing your name to stupid letters. Very truly yours,…
Edit: Oh yes, and CNN’s General Counsel is named Vigilante.
scav
No doubt it’s run across his mind that if we as a nation stop naming bases after treasonous gits, there will never be a Fort Trump to pay him licensing fees.
Kent
That’s why I edited my original post from first day in office to first 6 months. But honestly it’s going to take the full 4 years.
Jeffro
OT but interesting: the pro-Dem ‘Indivisible’ group surveyed 20k people in all 50 states and came up with a pretty clear preference for Biden’s VP.
I’ve seen similar polling indicating while the Veep pick is usually of almost no consequence, this time around it is a significant motivator/party unifier for the Dems.
But we have several great choices, and of course we’ll all crawl over broken glass in November, etc etc.
Kent
You are right of course. I was trying to remember if it was the $10 or $20 and guessed wrong because I was too lazy to google. The $10 bill is Hamilton, of course, who can stay.
joel hanes
@dmsilev:
They could have saved a lot of words by responding with
“We refer you to the reply made in the case Arkell vs. Pressdram”
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
I was pissed off when that happened. Not the worst thing this admin has ever done but very small, racist, and petty. Jackson was a genocidal proto-fascist, yet so many comments on this NYT article defend him as some kind of “great man” who Americans at the time appreciated. Fuck. That.
Not surprisingly, Mnuchin lied about the “technical delays” for the Tubman $20
ETA: Apparently, there was inspector general investigation into the delay launched in June 2019
Baud
@Jeffro:
How so? More people will be not chosen than chosen.
Kelly
I clearly remember the WTF?? feeling when I discovered we have military bases named after confederates. Most of all want to rename Fort Benning to Fort Sherman.
PenAndKey
@dmsilev: I don’t know why I’m actually shocked Trump tried to use that idiots ‘analysis’ of CNN’s poll results to send a cease and desist letter over it, but that’s exactly the level of response it deserved. Just… Wow. I’m beginning to wonder if he’s actually trying to lose the election at this point, or if he’s just surrounded by people willing to make the motions to do whatever he wants because they don’t care how bad it makes him look.
Baud
@Kent:
That reminds me, has Mnemosyne been absent lately?
Jeffro
@NotMax: It’s just pathetic. “Let me get some black supporters up here for a photo op and that’ll TOTALLY turn the tide! I’ll be a hero! Ben Carson!”
Kay
I know the confederate flag stands for enslaving people and that’s the important part of this, but I’ve personally enjoyed it finally being officially retired more than I thought I would.
It just never made sense to me, even as a kid. I don’t know why we would keep the loser flag around. I mean, it’s harsh, sure, and there are always fee-fees to consider, but when you lose you don’t get to fly your flag.
It just seems like validation of what should be common sense.
matt
Just rename them for heroes like John Brown and William T. Sherman. Easy solve.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Barbara: in Central New York it is more common than you might think. Also those bullshit Heritage not Hate bumper stickers. My kid went to college up there. First time we saw one my Lefty liberal Tennessee born husband was all WTF?!
joel hanes
@Jeffro:
They surveyed self-identified Indivisible supporters.
I suspect that a professionally-constructed poll with representative samples of all Democrats would have come up with a different answer.
Full disclosure: I’m a Warren stan, but if she’s not going to be President, I want her to remain in the Senate. Also, she’s too old to do 4 years as Veep and 8 as President.
joel hanes
@Kay:
I don’t know why we would keep the loser flag around.
Resentment signalling
Jeffro
@Baud: Putting the person in question on the ticket helps unify the ‘moderate’ and ‘progressive’ wings of the Dems, and she has very high name recognition. (Granted, so do a few others).
I understand she also ‘has a plan for’ most everything we need to get done the next four years. ;)
dmsilev
@PenAndKey: I hope you noticed that the full letter made a point of mentioning that Trump’s “polling expert” has his fair share of complete and total fuck-ups.
Another Scott
No monuments to traitors.
Cheers,
Scott.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Kay: it’s not hard. The confederate officers violated their oaths Most of them went to West Point, and committed treason. So people could be kept enslaved. That flag should have been outlawed. Fuck their feelings
also there are many black members of the military. How do you think they feeling serving on a base named after a damn Confederate officer?
West of the Cascades
Perhaps Fort Hood could be renamed for Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, who famously faced down a segment of Hood’s troops at Little Round Top.
NotMax
@joel hanes
RINO. Due to party factionalism Lincoln wasn’t listed on the ballot as a Republican for his second term.
;)
dmsilev
OK, now shit is getting real:
NASCAR Bans Confederate Flags At Its Events And Properties
Jeffro
@joel hanes: I hear you…but nothing is certain. She might have to step in at some point before 2024, and/or might even decline to run in 2024. The possibilities are endless.
Let’s just go with Biden + (great person) and take care of one thing at a time.
joel hanes
@PenAndKey:
people willing to make the motions to do whatever he wants
Pretty much every rational person who has worked closely with Trump and then left has reported that they struggled mightily to restrain his most stupid impulses. Trump hates it when they do that, and eventually gets rid of them, leaving only those who are either agree with the stupid gestures, are afraid to object, or are willing to stifle in order to ride the gravy train.
Roger Moore
@Barbara:
As I said in a previous discussion of the “Confederate Flag”, the whole thing is basically a neo-Confederate invention. Hardly anyone was using that flag for anything until it was resurrected as a symbol of resistance to the Civil Rights Movement. Any use of it today is tainted by that, no matter how much the user prattles on about “heritage not hate”.
Baud
@Jeffro:
Ok, it wasn’t clear to me that you were talking about Warren specifically in the second paragraph.
FWIW, my odds aren’t on her being chosen.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
This can be considered a good thing. It won’t look like he’s hand-picking our next nominee. That’s the MSM’s job.
Ruckus
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.):
Highly likely he did. I’d almost guess 3rd and 4th grades as well. He is none too bright.
joel hanes
@Jeffro:
I think that at this moment in 2020, the VP nominee had better be a woman of color.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@dmsilev:
Good for NASCAR, even if it took so long
I’m sure we can expect “HERITAGENOTHATE!!11!” in 3…2…1…
Kay
@joel hanes:
I understood it clearly as two sides, one right and that side won and the other wrong and that side lost, and that was with the kind of watered down public school history where they insist on throwing a bone to the confederates by throwing in a lot of chaff about urban versus rural or whatever. As a 4th grader I understood that it was win/lose. I expect the loser to give way. That’s the deal.
trollhattan
A fox invites herself to a Scottish picnic.
patrick Il
@Kent: I’ll give you $20 for two of your Tubman bills.
Ladyraxterinok
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
See reenactment of Civil War battles and how supposedly everyone wants to be a Confederate soldier
Doesn’t the book The Confederate in the Attic deal with how so many have romanticized the ante-bellum south and the lost cause.
Baud
@trollhattan: I was waiting for the hounds and the guys on horses to appear out of the trees.
Ruckus
@VFX Lurker:
Playing with model cars of the Duke.
Well he would have been 33-34 yrs old in it’s first year so given who he is and his upbringing, it’s quite possible.
Leto
Open thread?
Senate Unanimously Confirms 1st Black Chief Of A U.S. Military Service
I’m excited about this, but also want to say that it took way too fucking long. Enlisted side isn’t much better as we’ve only had two Chief Master Sgts of the AF. Our current CMSAF is Chief Wright, but our first was Chief Barnes. He did a terrific interview shortly after he retired, that if you have a few mins is worth the read.
Jeffro
@Baud: It’ll be her or Harris, 99% chance. I think Warren’s odds of being selected are slightly better, but who knows. It’s definitely close.
@joel hanes: Warren has really strong support among black Democratic voters. And there are many issues and factors that go into these decisions, not just this moment. We’ll see how it goes.
hilts
Trump wears racism on his sleeve like a badge of honor. Every day this pathetic excuse for a human being finds new ways to denigrate, disparage, and dishonor the office of the presidency.
The White House needs to be fumigated before Biden moves in to replace this lying troglodyte.
Kent
Doesn’t surprise me that the mostly-white, Ivy-league-dominated, venture-capital/Davos types who compose “Indivisible” would lean towards Warren. https://indivisible.org/board
I would not be unhappy with Warren. She was my first choice for the top of the ticket. And she is who I would pick to clean up the mess that is the executive branch of the Federal government. But I think a younger candidate like Harris would be better.
trollhattan
@VFX Lurker:
There was a car? [Daisy Duke joke]
The General Lee was painted orange, right? The president paints himself orange, right? Trump thinks he’s a car!
Ruckus
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Well of course it’s because the heritage they worship is racism, no matter that they contend that it is in no way racism. It’s the only reason the confederacy and the flag existed at all.
Ladyraxterinok
@HumboldtBlue:
Didn’t wealthy white men in NYC try to hire Irish immigrants to take their places in the draft?
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro: I’d be surprised as hell AND thrilled to pieces if Biden named Warren as his VP but would probably have to stay off Twitter for at least a month or so.
SiubhanDuinne
@dmsilev:
Very Dickensian.
Baud
@VFX Lurker:
He was probably moved by Granny’s “The South shall rise again!” cries on the Beverly Hillbillies.
Kay
@Roger Moore:
That is absolutely why they’re flying it in Ohio and Michigan. I mean, come on. It’s ludicrous. They’re not even southerners. What else could they possibly be doing with that flag? This isn’t their “heritage”. Why this strange attachment to long-dead southerners?
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Fort Benedict Arnold
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Why? Who do you follow who hates Warren (as opposed to any other likely pick)?
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
So a win-win.
;)
Baud
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
Haha. The Hero of Saratoga!
trollhattan
@Baud:
From over by the seement pond where she was skinnin’ possums with Ellie Mae.
JoyceH
When you mention non-Southerners with a fondness for the confederate flag, I immediately thought of George Allen, one-time Senator and Governor of Virginia. Born and bred in California, where growing up his penchant for flying a large Confederate flag from his car was considered… unusual.
Allen was also the douche who called the young man filming him ‘Macaca’, and ‘welcomed him’ to the US and Virginia. Unlike Allen, the young fellow was born and lived his entire life in Virginia.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
Funny you should mention. I was thinking just this morning that I hadn’t seen her around for a bit. Hope all is well in the Mnem household.
Kay
This doesn’t get discussed enough, in my opinion. Talk about Jefferson Sessions all you want, the lead Trump Administration racists all came out of NYC. The loathsome Giuliani was elected there. Not just a southern problem.
PenAndKey
@Jeffro: I did notice that. It was glorious, but I’m currently typing on my phone with a clingy two month old napping on my chest so I had to hold in the laughter. That reply was a case study in how to tell someone to fuck off while still maintaining professionalism.
schrodingers_cat
As someone who has lived in Yankee Land for 20 years or more, there are Confederate flaggers here too. They are few and far between but they exist. It is a tell that they are racist. Another piece of anecdata I began seeing them only after Obama took office.
SiubhanDuinne
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
?????
schrodingers_cat
@Kay: Didn’t NYC have Confederate sympathies during the Civil War and British sympathies during the Revolutionary war. They are not as liberal as they would have you believe.
Seen in that context NYT’s fascination with the wrong side of the history seems very New York.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@schrodingers_cat:
That, and the Thin Blue Line flags, especially after 2014-2015
Kay
I’m glad. I hoped they would be preserved. We don’t seem to learn anything from our history anyway but you have to keep trying.
.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I began seeing them in Junior High. Let’s call it 1996. Same year I moved from Boston to the suburbs.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@schrodingers_cat:
I do know that the Irish immigrants during the Civil War in NYC didn’t like the draft that was instituted by Lincoln
JoyceH
@Kent: “I would not be unhappy with Warren. She was my first choice for the top of the ticket. And she is who I would pick to clean up the mess that is the executive branch of the Federal government. But I think a younger candidate like Harris would be better.”
I’m with you. I voted for Warren in the primary. But. She’s 70 years old. (Hard to believe, I know, but she is.) The top of the ticket is what – 77, 78? And we’re in the midst of a pandemic that hits hardest with the oldest. Someone younger, please.
Ruckus
@Jeffro:
I do not get that choice. EW is great, has the energy of a 20 yr old and is rather intelligent and thoughtful. But 2 people at the top in their 70s? I’m just not seeing it. Because KH is also very smart, very well spoken, has experience running a rather big bureaucracy and doing rather good job of not just following the standard line for an AG but actively worked to reduce sentencing guidelines and sentences that were ridiculous. Either would very likely be fine but if KH goes, there is no doubt that a democrat would replace her and is that true of MA?
Kay
@schrodingers_cat:
Barr too. Another one. The eastern, urban wingnuts seem more dangerous than the southern variety, frankly. It’s like they tricked us.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Jeffro: She got 14% of the Black vote in her own home state. She did worse than Mr. Stop-and-Frisk (Bloomberg). (link) That’s not strength.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
I was really hoping the signs+fencing could be preserved, like segments of the Berlin Wall. Glad to hear that the African-American History Museum are preserving the signs at least
schrodingers_cat
Elizabeth Warren is far more popular on this blog and among white college educated Democrats than she is among the D electorate in general. She didn’t even place second in of the primaries she contested, including the state she is a sitting senator.
bluehill
@dmsilev: Will be interesting to see how they plan to enforce this.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: The combined fury of the Bernie Bros and K-Hive would make that hellsite even more unbearable.
Another Scott
@Barbara:
OTOH, Adam Serwer – The Myth of the Kindly General Lee…
tl;dr – he was a white supremacist monster – of course he was going to fight to maintain slavery.
Cheers,
Scott.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Sorry we’re only accepting old white men for this position this year.
schrodingers_cat
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Copperheads were sympathetic to the Confederacy. NYC made big bucks off of the slave trade IIRC.
WaterGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: Did you happen to see my email?
Roger Moore
@Kay:
The problem is that people don’t necessarily stay in one place. There are plenty of people who moved from the South to other parts of the country, and they might be genuinely proud of their Southern heritage. I’ve seen people flying flags of many different countries as a way of celebrating their heritage, so it’s not completely crazy that people might fly a “Southern” flag as a way of celebrating their heritage.
The problem is that there’s a difference between celebrating Southern heritage and celebrating Confederate heritage. By all means, fly the flag of Texas, South Carolina, or whatever state you or your ancestors hail from as a way of showing your Southern pride. But flying the Confederate flag shows exactly what part of your Southern heritage you care about, and it’s not very flattering.
Barbara
@Another Scott: Let’s just say that Lee’s image has been overly curated and his descendants have been careful not to release his unedited personal correspondence.
Hoodie
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: Yeah, I don’t get the Warren for VP thing. She’s great, but she was not a big draw for the black vote. Truth be told, neither was Harris. I think there’s a good chance Biden will not pick either one.
Brachiator
So, HBO Max has temporarily pulled “Gone With the Wind.”
Has Trump delivered a Twitter opinion on this?
Meanwhile, the novel has shot to Number 1 at Amazon. Many will be dismayed to learn that it is a book, and they must actually read it.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Most polls I’ve seen for Veep place her first. Maybe that’s name recognition, but I don’t think the presidential primary vote is necessarily indicative of who Dems prefer as Veep.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
She has 70 delegates, the third most. Bloomberg has 49.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Roger Moore:
Exactly this.
@schrodingers_cat:
Not surprising. I remember reading that Copperhead popularity waxed when the Union was doing poorly in battle and waned when they were winning. A lot of white people in the North were unsurprisingly racist themselves and would’ve gladly excepted a ceasefire and allowed the CSA to go on it’s merry way
Ruckus
@PenAndKey:
It is possible, but not likely that they have read the tea leaves and the polls and see that not only is he behind but every new poll puts him farther behind. If he’s going to lose bad then why should they stick their necks out for him?
Jeffro
@schrodingers_cat: um
@Hoodie:
So, that was a month (aka, 80 Infrastructure Weeks) ago. Warren actually *is* a big draw for Dems as VP, and Harris is not far behind.
Recent events may have shifted who’s on top, so to speak, but it doesn’t really matter. We have great choices, and it will almost certainly be one of these two.
Mike in NC
Wife graduated from Robert E. Lee High School in Springfield, VA. Last year she asked me if he was really a dick. Showed her an article about how his slaves were routinely mistreated (as if treating a slave “well” was a thing).
Jeffro
@Baud: Exactly.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: She has done worse than the other state wide D candidates in Mass during both her elections. She is not universally popular in her home state.
feral1
I very rarely comment here, but I just want to say that is one of the most brilliant headlines for a post that I’ve ever seen. Bravo @Betty Cracker
trollhattan
Oh lordy, CNN’s response to Trump’s poll threat. The closing:
Nice.
joel hanes
@Kay:
In Iowa in the 1960s, my middle school US history had the whole “states rights” , “carpetbaggers”, “Radical Republicans”, agrarian vs. industrialized dodge to avoid talking directly about slavery. I don’t remember that Kansas was mentioned, nor the fact that Iowa and Missouri had running border skirmishes for decades because of murky surveying and the fervent desire of southern Iowans not to live in a slave state.
Neither the textbook nor the teacher wanted to talk about slavery at all. Nor did my later history class teach me about Haiti.
But around the same time, I read Black Like Me, and my eyes began to open.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: She doesn’t have to be popular. The Veep is always irrelevant unless it is Sarah Palin, in which case it hurts a little. People believe it will be different this time, but it won’t be.
Feathers
@trollhattan:The UK urban foxes are changing: Foxes Show Early Signs of Self-Domestication
My guess is that someone had semi-tamed it and been hand feeding it. The woman’s voice was very soothing, almost like she was calling it, rather than wanting it to go away. We can hear the tension, but I’m guessing the fox didn’t.
I worked on a college campus where the students tamed the squirrels. One came right up on the bench next to me while I was eating my lunch. I shooed it away with my hand and ended up smacking it in the face. We both sat there for a moment staring at each other, very surprised. It then ran away. I felt bad, but really did think it would jump away the moment I moved my hand.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Mike in NC:
I’m sure some slave owners deluded themselves into thinking they were treating their slaves well and it was for their own good. I remember viewing a Washington docudrama in 8th grade with Jeffrey Jones in it, depicting Washington talking with his wife Martha about how slavery was wrong. Granted, a lot of Founding Fathers were hypocrites, but it struck me as whitewashing to make Washington look less bad for being a slave owner most of his life
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: The issue was gauging her strength among Black voters, not who had more overall delegates. One way to measure is her performance with Black voters in her home state. Presumably she would have done well, considering she’s been representing the state for 8 years. Yet Bloomberg (no friend of Blacks and a Yankee fan to boot) received a higher share of the Black vote in Mass than Warren. Which portents negatively.
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
I like Warren. I voted for her in the California primary. But voters clearly rejected her and she does not have strong support among black voters.
I also don’t particularly want to see two 70 year olds on the ticket.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Also false. She got 2/3 of the vote in her last election while the D candidate for governor, um, lost with only 1/3 of the vote.
Her first election she beat an incumbent
Choosing someone else when you can only make one choice is not necessarily a rejection of the others.
AliceBlue
Before we start naming forts after Union generals, it would be wise to read up on their roles in the Indian wars. Sherman’s involvement in particular was none too savory.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): John Quincy Adams was 17.5 times the man that Jackson was.
Ruckus
@dmsilev:
NASCAR?
Well the France family is all about the money and does give less than one shit about anything else. And they do try to actually build racing fan support past the tracks they own.They might lose a few fans but I’d bet they find more. And their gig is not going all that well the last few years so…..
Jeffro
I’m intrigued by the NASCAR no-more-Confederate-flags thing and how it will blow up in trumpov’s face when he starts beating on them on Twitter.
“NASCAR? NFL? Won’t at least ONE sports league stand up for racism?”
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
As with any large population, I’m sure you’ll find a few slave owners on both ends of the bell curve, with most in the middle. That doesn’t change the fact that the curve is measuring an evil.
trollhattan
@Jeffro:
My rational side wants somebody distinctly younger and very engaging on the stump. My emotional side wants Warren V2.0 because I truly enjoyed watching her campaign rallies and would love the series to continue. That final(?) one in downtown Seattle was inspiring, even on teevee. She’s good in front of a crowd and excellent one-on-one.
Either way, I want Donny’s teeth kicked out hourly.
Kent
A lot of rural Oregon was settled by penniless pioneers migrating from the demolished south after the Civil War. Lot’s of Scots-Irish southerners who came from Appalachia and settled in places like Roseburg and Grant’s Pass OR to work the mines and timberland and carve out stump farms.
The cities like Portland, Seattle, and Spokane were built by Yankee New Englander types and Scandinavians who sailed around and brought their money with them and created those places in the image of New England cities.
But that explains in part the urban/rural split in places like Oregon. In a very real sense it has always been there. And lots of those rural Oregon folks with their big 4×4 trucks, double-wides, and Confederate flags actually are descended from migrants fleeing the post-war Confederacy. And why much of rural Oregon looks more like the Ozarks or Appalachia than say tidy New England farms.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@dmsilev:
OMG, ROTFLMFAO!
Mo Salad
@Kent: A bit before Trump came along, Hamilton became popular and the plan switched to putting her on the 20. I say let’s go full troll on this and put George Floyd on the 20. That way, when some yahoo burns one at a protest, the federal government and we, the taxpayers, have 20 fewer dollars that we need to tax or borrow.
Today’s word is seigniorage. Can you say seigniorage?
Nice try.
Roger Moore
@Hoodie:
This seems pretty irrelevant to me. Biden was obviously the big winner of the black vote. It’s not at all obvious that he should pick a VP candidate to appeal to black voters. It might make more sense to pick a candidate who appeals to voters who Biden has been less successful at attracting himself.
schrodingers_cat
@Jeffro: I need to see the cross tabs on that poll. She will be a dead weight on the ticket if he chooses her. This is just my opinion, YMMV.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
It’s difficult to prattle on about heritage not hate, when the heritage was hate.
Jeffro
@Brachiator:
Me either, but apparently that’s a strong possibility this time around. And again, we may only see them in 2020. Trying to predict how it will all play out in 2024 or further beyond is not a good use of time.
I mean, it’s fun, but it’s not productive. =)
Mike in NC
@FelonyGovt: It’s no secret that Fat Bastard is functionally illiterate (“Having Lunch with the Prince of Whales!!!”) but he has authorized his former caddy and others to compose many of his moronic Tweets and gave them what in the military is called Release Authority.
trollhattan
@Baud:
The “free room and board” concept is fucking mindboggling. Three hots and a cot ain’t great if you’re drafted/enlist, but eventually you get out of the military and back on your own.
Jinchi
No. Scott Brown took Ted Kennedy’s seat. I’d be surprised if a Republican could take it this round, but it’s certainly possible. Massachusetts is not nearly as Blue as everyone makes it out to be. They’ve had Republican governor’s for 21 of the last 29 years.
I’d be happy with Warren as a VP pick, but I hope Biden doesn’t pull her out of the Senate for a cabinet position.
Jeffro
@schrodingers_cat: Ok, so…go look up cross tabs and also other polls.
Jeffro
@Roger Moore: Bingo.
schrodingers_cat
@Roger Moore: He has been successful among all demographics. I think he should pick the person he is most comfortable working with and could step up as the President if necessary. If he thinks that person is Warren then so be it.
EW is no Hillary. Not feeling the love everyone else at Balloon Juice is feeling for the senator from Mass.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Biden/Bloomberg 2020, that’s the ticket!
Never let it be said that only Republicans can cherry-pick data.
Some more current polling, polling that was posted on this blog yesterday and covers more than one state on one particular day that reflects circumstances more as they are now, has her as the preferred choice of black voters and voters under 40. The latter group is where Biden is likely to have the most problems.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Yes, she’s not commented for a bit.
Another Scott
@Baud:
+1
Look at Biden in the 2008 cycle – he went nowhere in the primaries.
He’s had Warren, Harris, and even Castro working on proposals and plans (in at least semi-official ways). He’s kicking the tires on lots of possible VPs.
Joe will make a good choice.
Cheers,
Scott.
Butter Emails
I prefer naming military bases after generals who didn’t lose.
BBA
The New York Draft Riots are a good argument for never naming anything after a white person again. Everyone on both sides was just plain evil.
jayjaybear
@SiubhanDuinne:
He tends to forget he’s using English, not his milktongue, German…
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
I’ve been lucky enough to travel through Germany a few times and oddly enough they have no Fort Albert Speer or Hermann Göring Airfield.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I emailed about 10 days ago still have heard nothing from her.
Kent
There’s no reason at all to limit names to Union generals. The US has a long and storied military history and there are plenty of candidates that don’t have to be generals or even civil war era soldiers. For example:
Doris Miller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Miller (although he was a sailor so better perhaps for a Navy Base).
Ben Kuroki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kuroki
Daniel Inouye: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Inouye
Vernon Baker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Baker
etc. etc.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
Oh, I don’t disagree. I was being facetious if that wasn’t obvious
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hell yeah he was. He defended the slaves who rebelled against their captors on the Amistad, and helped them return home
jl
If the US needs to have a base or two named after Confederate generals, name them after people like Longstreet, one of the generals who dedicated themselves to heroic work for the Union and led integrated local police and militia forces in the early Reconstruction.
The Southern Heritage people will probably be very unhappy about something like that. If they complain, might be interesting to ask them why
Edit: last I checked, those Confederate generals have almost zero presence in the Confederate and Southern Heritage pantheon. Dinky statues where they were born and nothing else outside of national parks. Interesting to ask why they are almost forgotten by the Southern Heritage set, which seems so obsessed with not forgetting US history.
Roger Moore
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Washington was at least a bit squeamish about having slaves. Notably, he manumitted his slaves in his will, which was more than most of the slave holding Founding Fathers did. I think that almost perfectly encapsulated the difficulty the whole country had with slavery at the time: he knew slavery was wrong but was too dependent on it to give it up except in death. Unfortunately, the subsequent generation abandoned even that many reservations about slavery and rationalized it as a positive good.
Lynn Dee
There were so many casualties “the water *would* turn red”? What’s that even mean? If it actually happened, you’d say “the water turned red” and be done with it. It’s like he’s trying to create some Civil War version of the crying Virgin or our Lady of Lourdes.
“Every year on the anniversary date of the water would turn red. . . . when nobody was looking, as it turned out. But one day, someone will see it and get a picture!”
VFX Lurker
Not sure about that last sentence. Harris had the endorsement of Higher Heights and the Reckoning Crew, and Tom Steyer’s campaign found Harris’ data for South Carolina well worth stealing while leaving Warren’s data alone.
Harris appears to have had more black voter support than Warren.
jl
I think there should also be some very big and bold statues of heroic African-Americans standing up and breaking their chains, in proud release from slavery. Other countries have those. Some big statues commemorating slave rebellions.
Probably should be one in California for Native Americans, whom this state enslaved for all practical purposes for over 25 years in 19th century.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: The Google says May 20 was her last posting here.
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/05/20/wednesday-evening-open-thread-vroom-vroom
trnc
I hope to have the opportunity one day to ask a proclaimer of “confederate statues are part of our history” what they said when the statue of Saddam Hussein came down in Baghdad.
Jinchi
Agreed. I’ve seen a few pundits suggesting Biden needs to pick a VP who can either reach across the partisan divide or incentivize the black vote. Both arguments seem absurd to me. Biden was the bridge candidate and his biggest bragging point was that he had the overwhelming support of the black community.
Biden is campaigning in an environment where his VP pick will not affect his chances in November at all. He’s free to pick whoever he wants. I hope he picks someone who is ready to take on a significant chunk of the job he’ll be facing, but he certainly doesn’t need someone to wrap up the black or Never-Trumper vote.
schrodingers_cat
My ex-friend the Jill Stein voter was a big Lee fan that should have given me a hint. Hind sight as they say is 20/20.
raven
While these efforts were under way, scouts from Wheeler’s cavalry arrived, fired briefly at the soldiers on the far bank, and left to summon Wheeler’s full force. Officers from the XIV Corps ordered their men to leave the scene, and the march was resumed. The freedmen continued their frantic efforts to ferry as many as possible across the stream on the makeshift raft, but when Wheeler’s cavalry arrived in force, those refugees who had not made it to the eastern bank, or drowned in the attempt, were enslaved once more.[8]
Aftermath.
jl
@Jinchi: I think both Warren and Harris would be good choices and hoping for one of them.
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat:
In mid-May she mentioned that she has taken some time-outs from here occasionally; maybe she’s doing that again.
[Sending good thoughts.]
Cheers,
Scott.
August West
@schrodingers_cat:
Didn’t NYC have Confederate sympathies during the Civil War?
Unfortunately, there were New Yorkers such as Mayor Fernando Wood were on the wrong side of history
h/t https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Wood
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
HA!
MisterForkbeard
@trollhattan: They got a guy named “Vigilante” to sign it? Nice. That probably wasn’t intentional and I don’t particularly care.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
That reminds me of the DK “song” ‘Night of the Living Rednecks’ that takes place in Portland, Oregon
Night of the Living Rednecks
Roger Moore
@schrodingers_cat:
FWIW, I agree that it makes sense for Biden to choose based on governing rather than campaigning. That’s doubly so because of his age. There’s a real chance he would either die in office or not be up to run for reelection, and in either case his VP choice could very easily wind up succeeding him. He needs to make sure to pick someone up to the task.
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
RE: I also don’t particularly want to see two 70 year olds on the ticket.
Strong possibility? Says who? Yeah, I see some of the stories. I just don’t get it.
My fantasy is that Biden serves two full terms and his Democratic successor serves two full terms. But I note this is a fantasy.
However, just as voters may have thought about Palin as someone who might have to finish McCain’s term, voters will look at Biden’s choice the same way. And again, I would prefer someone younger.
NotMax
@Kent
Not Inouye, please. The man had no qualms about bragging he was a ghoul.
Feathers
@Mike in NC: I always thought it was rather shady of Alexandria to have named their school for children with developmental disabilities Robert E. Lee. It’s now the Early Childhood Center.
I think everything Lee should be renamed Grant (unless there is already a Grant). Grant was done dirty by the anti-Reconstructionists and his history and accomplishments should be better known today.
jl
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: I thought the WH is Fort Trump.
Another Scott
@Jinchi: Rachel Bitecofer says that Democrats need to really fire up the base – like Obama did – to win the down-ballot races they need to win. I think it’s a compelling argument. I’m sure Biden is aware of analysis like her’s and is taking it into account. I expect him to pick someone more like Sojourner Truth than Bess Truman, but we’ll see. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
bjacques
@trollhattan: seeing as this thread is still alive and kicking, the reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks to Sultan Mehmed IV of the Ottoman Empire might be more appropriate:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks
Jinchi
@jl: I agree. They’re my top two picks as well.
raven
Moderation, pffffftttt.
Kent
Exactly. They never had a chance to vote for her. The entire perception was based on a few very early polls long before Iowa. I don’t think a November 2019 Primary poll has much to say about black support for Harris as VP one way or the other.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I’m certain whoever he picks will be capable and ready for the job. So, for me, there can be no wrong choice because I’m bound to like whomever he chooses more than I like him.
I like the idea of Harris or Warren. But no matter what, I want both of them wherever they can do the most good. And I trust the lot of them to figure out where that is.
Calouste
@AliceBlue: There are enough World War I/II Generals to name bases after without having to go back to the civil war.
Another Scott
@bjacques: rofl.
Thanks very much.
Cheers,
Scott.
Matt McIrvin
@Lord Fartdaddy (Formerly, Mumphrey, Smedley Darlington Mingobat, et al.): Your great-aunt’s Facebook posts about how she’s not afraid to say she loves Jesus are capitalized like that; Trump is demonstrating affinity for his base. His staffers may even be doing it consciously for that reason.
Kent
@NotMax: OK fine. I was just throwing out random famous soldiers of color, not doing the fine vetting. There are plenty of deserving candidates.
MomSense
@Omnes Omnibus:
When I was a kid I went to the Church of the Presidents in Quincy Mass. The crypt where John, Abigail, JQ, and Louisa are buried is in the basement right next to where our Sunday School room was at the time. JQ the 6th (could’ve been 5th) took us on a field trip to their home and we got to see the greenhouse where JQ tended all sorts of plants that were considered exotic then.
He was such a champion for anti slavery legislation, giving speeches in Congress almost daily and putting up with constant ridicule from his colleagues.
The Adams never kept slaves. I still don’t know why we overlook them in favor of the other founders.
Jinchi
Trump has set the Democratic base on fire all by himself.
trnc
The page BC linked is an excerpt from that book.
NotMax
@bjacques
A simple McAuliffesque “Nuts!” would do, too.
;)
raven
What the fuck? My post gets deleted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebenezer_Creek
Dorothy A. Winsor
@SiubhanDuinne:
Good one.
I’ve had to stop considering the grammar and usage of Trump’s writing. That way lies madness.
Kent
I grew up in semi-rural Oregon. My Facebook feed of the guys I grew up with in HS is absolutely nothing but middle aged blue collar white guys in cammo posing next to the elk they have shot or steelhead they have caught interspaced between racist MAGA drivel. Utterly indistinguishable from what you might see from the same middle aged white guys in rural Alabama except that you swap out steelhead fishing for bass fishing.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Roger Moore:
That’s the problem with institutions and cultural norms. They can often stand in the way of progress. People like Washington would’ve gladly given up slavery if it had been outlawed, but as you said, letting his slaves go free then and there would not have been profitable for him. If it had been me? I would’ve tried to set them free, sold the plantation, and done something else that wouldn’t destroy my soul
Feathers
I think he should pick either Warren or Harris. Leaning towards Harris, even though Liz was my pick in the primaries.
He should bring out the other though, and announce she will stay in the Senate and be head of the truth and reconciliation commission. Seriously. Kamala would be awesome at ferreting out the illegalities of the Trump administration. Liz could figure out how to get the economy cracking again, making sure the fat cats don’t end up with all of the recovery, like they did post-2008.
Another Scott
@Jinchi: Even more is better, given what we know they’ll be trying to do.
Local elections held recently in Virginia had many seats that weren’t held by incumbent Democrats.…
We don’t want to leave anything on the table.
Cheers,
Scott.
Bill Arnold
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone:
I’m fond of “Treasonous Slaveholder’s Rebellion”, or as Robert Sneddon pointed out years ago, “Second Treasonous Slaveholder’s Rebellion”. Hasn’t taken off though.
I grew up with a 128(?) volume set Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies in the War of the Rebellion, that were my great grandfather’s (2 term congressman Pennsylvania). The name of that official set added some oomph to the name “War of the Rebellion” after it was published.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
“River of Blood” was some plastic toy soldier set made for kids.
Baud
@Bill Arnold:
It’s not treason when you win.
karensky
@Another Scott:
yes to southpaw’s tweet and Ms Cracker’s nomination of Robert Smalls!
AliceBlue
James E Powell
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
The owners, managers, editors, and reporters of every news organization in America, along with whatever publisher gave Maggie the advance.
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
This is not exactly true. Most of the slaves under his control were the property of his wife’s family, and he could not legally free them.
He specified that the slaves he owned be freed after his wife’s death. Martha got nervous that they would benefit from her death, and freed them in 1801. She did not free her dower slaves.
When he lived in Philadelphia, the law allowed for the emancipation of enslaved people who lived in the state for more than six months. Washington came up with an elaborate scheme to rotate his servants back to Mount Vernon to avoid having to free anyone.
Washington also vigorously pursued escaped slaves.
NotMax
@Enhanced Voting Techniques
See also: Battle of Kepaniwai.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
Not much different than the South. It’s a misconception that the South is uniquely racist and most of the country isn’t.
As for renaming military bases, I’d suggest using WW2 generals other military leaders, such as Eisenhower
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I think it’s that white southerners express their racism in their politics in a way that is different than racists in other parts of the country.
At least historically.
raven
@AliceBlue: I posted the entire wiki listing and it got erased. It has to do with Sherman
avis’s orders infuriated several of the Union men who witnessed the ensuing calamity, among them Major James A. Connolly and Chaplain John J. Hight.[9] Connolly described the events in a letter to the Senate Military Commission, which found its way into the press. Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton brought the incident up with Sherman and Davis during a visit to Savannah in January 1865. Davis defended his actions as a matter of military necessity, with Sherman’s full support. [10]
raven
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): We love it here though.
WaterGirl
@Hoodie: That’s my feeling too, on all three things.
James E Powell
@Krope, the Formerly Dope:
I’m sure Bill Kristol has a few suggestions.
NotMax
@raven
The entirety likely surpassed the seven link limit.
Mike in NC
Wow, now even NASCAR is banning Confederate flags.
Michael
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: What the eff was that?
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@James E Powell: At least we can be sure we already locked down Bret Stephens’s vote.
Kent
How so? Only difference I can think of is that the south is really the only part of the country where there are large numbers of blacks living in small towns and rural areas. Everywhere else blacks are mostly urban while rural areas are nearly lily-white, although that is changing to some extent due to Hispanic migration.
But the racism I see in rural Oregon and Washington is pretty damn indistinguishable from what I saw in rural Texas. In fact it may be even more hard-headed.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
Perhaps they’re more vehement because they know where they live they are outnumbered.
WaterGirl
@Butter Emails: Nice one!
Kelly
My theory is the nearly complete lack of African Americans in rural Oregon allow the bigots to base their bigotry on caricatures unaltered by knowing any black people.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Maybe I should send her a message.
AWOL
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
Giuliani is a Yankee die hard.
Bloomberg was born in Boston and still roots Red Sox.
WaterGirl
@raven: I just looked, so maybe someone fished you out . Not pending, not spam, no trash.
WaterGirl
@raven: A whole wiki listing would probably have a zillion links.
Kent
Outnumbered? Statewide yes, but not in their communities: http://rynerohla.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/16-Oregon-Inv.png
Jinchi
I still can’t get my mind around how these guys think.
Kent
Yep. Also why the most anti-immigrant parts of the US are those with the least immigrants.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Kent: As usual, those blue parts have more people than the red parts despite being a smaller land area. My impression is that the Rs don’t typically win Oregon statewide elections.
Gvg
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch: it strikes me that the blacks were being very cynical about white voters, and wanted whomever could beat Trump. Remember they didn’t go fo Obama until after white voters did. In fact, I felt pretty much the same way. I wanted a sure winner. Here in Florida, last election my fellow democrats picked an appealing black candidate instead of a safer white establishment woman and my father and I both discussed ahead of the primary why we didn’t chose him….because we were afraid he would lose and he did, barely. Mind you, the establishment candidate may have not had an appealing enough personality anyway but…we got stuck with an incompetent racist.
so take into account the need to win in Black voter choices.
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
That’s because it really can not be considered thought. It is only a reaction to a real or imagined slight to the greatest human to ever grace the land, themselves.
LeftCoastYankee
Trump thinks the Robert E. Lee was a really cool car.
Mike in NC
My dad went to Fort Benning for basic training in 1942. His photo album included “Whites Only” signs that were posted in the nearby town.
Kathleen
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Thank you for bravely doing good work. I listen to Rickey Smiley every morning on the radio and today one of his guests was Ben Crump, attorney for Breonna Taylor’s family, who said many African American women are demanding that there needs to be more pressure put on LPD and Commonwealth Attorney
ETA: I believe there are some protests or actions planned in Louisville.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Treason doth never prosper, what’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.
Another Scott
@Jinchi: It’s not a question of “thinking”. They want to break norms. They want people to not demand the truth and evidence any more. They want everyone to react in visceral ways – to either love Donnie or hate him. Because they know that people who are angry and scared and feel hopeless are easily manipulated.
They know they can’t win on the facts and the evidence and the laws and the norms. So they have to break all that to maintain power.
Don’t accept their framing.
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
Yes, of course. But they aren’t outnumbered in their own communities. There are plenty of racist white folk in rural Oregon who haven’t been in Portland in 20 years because they are terrified of encountering ANTIFA on the streets and why would you ever want to go to a liberal urban hellhole anyway? Places like Portland and Seattle might as well be the far side of the moon.
My point was the folks I grew up with in rural Oregon who are living in double-wides and driving beat-up F250s with gun racks and MAGA shit in the rear window. They sure as hell aren’t feeling outnumbered. They completely run the shitty little places where they live
And the only reason Oregon is blue is because of Portland. Cut Portland down to the size of Boise and Oregon would be pretty indistinguishable from Idaho.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
OK I gotcha. I may have been forcing my observation of New England MAGAts where it don’t fit.
TS (the original)
@Jinchi:
They are worried that the voter suppression/Russian interference by the GOP will become obvious when trump does better than the polls are indicating
Kent
This is what happened when Obama decided to visit rural Oregon: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/obama-roseburg-shooting-armed-protesters
https://www.bunkhistory.org/resources/3060
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/oregon-college-shooting/obama-arrives-roseburg-meet-victims-college-shooting-n441931
Did that happen when he visited rural New England?
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Kent: Like I said, it didn’t fit. Actually much of the rural part of MA votes pretty solid D. Most of our Rs are in the suburbs and some of the lower density cities.
Nellie
I grew up in Brooklyn. Plenty of Confederate sympathizers in Queens. Remember Howard Beach? NYC has every kind of racist crackpot you can imagine.
August West
Amid this discussion of military base names, let’s not forget the Confederate statues that currently reside inside the United States Capitol:
Wade Hampton III, South Carolina, served as a general in the Confederate cavalry.
James Zachariah George, Mississippi, general in Confederate army and signed ordinance of succession.
Jefferson Davis, Mississippi, president of the Confederacy.
Edmund Kirby Smith, Florida, general in the Confederate army. Being replaced by statue of educator Mary McCloud Bethune.
Joseph Wheeler, Alabama, general in the Confederate army.
Alexander Hamilton Stephens, Georgia, vice president of the Confederacy.
Edward D. White, Louisiana, fought in the Confederate army.
Robert E. Lee, Virginia, commanding general, army of Northern Virginia.
Zebulon Vance, North Carolina, officer in the Confederate army.
John Kenna, West Virginia, fought for the Confederacy.
h/t https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/19/confederate-statues-remain-u-s-capitol-despite-opposition/1269270002/
Viva BrisVegas
They’re thinking, we’ve now set up a phony issue that we can use to gin up outrage among the base and rake in more dollars.
Winning!
jefft452
@schrodingers_cat:
“Didn’t NYC have Confederate sympathies during the Civil War”
Some, the mayor was a Copperhead. But OTOH, City residents had a high percentage of enlistments. A big chunk of the NYFD joined up en-mass and formed their own regiment
“and British sympathies during the Revolutionary war.”
Mixed … The famous woodcut of the statue of George III being pulled down took place in Manhattan. Of course, after the battle of Brooklyn Heights when NYC was occupied it became a haven for loyalists fleeing persecution in CT, NJ, and the Hudson Valley so support for the loyalist cause went up
schrodingers_cat
@jefft452: @August West: Thanks for filling in the gaps of my knowledge I appreciate it.
Kent
I live in the Vancouver WA area. Just northeast of me are the twin rural town’s of Yacolt and Amboy which I sometimes pass through in the way to hikes or cross country skiing. Looking at the 2016 election data that area went 76% to Trump and 18% Clinton. This is the main place to eat there, a Biker Bar called Nick’s which used to be called White’s Bar: https://www.facebook.com/358471077879/photos/p.10155821113697880/10155821113697880/?type=1&theater
http://www.seattlebars.org/2014/04/2174-nicks-amboy-wa-5192013.html
And this is still exurban Portland within commuting distance. The deeper you get into the rural areas, the more redneck it gets.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
How’s the food?
low-tech cyclist
Maybe Trump can also place a monument to commemorate the Bowling Green Massacre.
(Great thread title, Betty!)
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@LeftCoastYankee: Drump thinks Bobbi Lee is a Dallas stripper
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
This thread is almost certainly dead by now, but let me say this: it’s irrelevant how well Warren — or anyone Biden is considering for running mate — did for herself in the primary. Biden himself got nowhere in 2008; but he clicked with Obama, and they made a great team as candidates and in the White House. Biden needs a running mate who clicks with him like he did with Obama.
August West
@schrodingers_cat:
You’re welcome. I only wish we had a president who was receptive to getting his vast knowledge gaps filled.
Just when I think Trump can’t get any worse he descends to a new level of scumbaggery.
columbusqueen
@MomSense: I’m a long term devotee of the Adams family for the reasons you mentioned. Only the Roosevelts rival them in importance among American political dynasties. They may be the most important given John being present at the creation; without him, do you get independence?
jonas
It’s probably just a coincidence — it’s almost too good not to be — but “Rivers of Blood” also refers to an infamous speech by the British conservative MP and classical scholar Enoch Powell in 1968, in which he drew on a prophetic vision from Virgil’s Aeneid about the Tiber river “flowing red with blood” to denounce mass immigration from former colonies to Britain in the post-war period. I’m sure Stephen Miller has a copy of it framed above his bed. Anyway, while I’m sure this probably grew out of some typical Trump fabulism (“Sir, the group of historians and preservationists said to me, sir, this is a site of the greatest, biggest importance, beautiful importance…”), and Enoch Powell himself would have despised Trump, I wouldn’t put it past someone in his circle who knew about it to engineer this little finger-tap-to-the-side-of-the-nose monument to it.
columbusqueen
NYC was much more Copperhead in sympathies than Boston or Philadelphia thanks to its commercial ties to the South. It also lacked the level of anti-slavery organizing of the other two cities.
geg6
@MomSense:
I’m sure this thread is dead, but I think it may be because so many of the Adamses were assholes, JQ included even though I really like him the best. His dad John especially when he was president.
Aleta
Off the top of my head I’ll suggest that somewhere along the line the Confederate flag became one of the acceptable (and more open) codes for opposing civil rights and AG Robert Kennedy’s use of federal powers against the South, and busing and any government program that included people hated by white racists…. Adopted by racists who hated Vietnamese and Hmong refugees and their descendants post-Vietnam War, the Japanese for their car exports and people from Arab nations post Bush 1’s Iraq War. That’s how I imagine its use increasing in the North and the Midwest and West. Sort of similar to the way that Reagan supporters complaining about ‘welfare queens’ became pervasive and code.
I imagine Tr. in the 60’s watching the TV news with his father, cheering the police attacks on marchers, excited by the dogs and bombings, wanting to be like Governor Barnett and Wallace. Like some others in NYC and upstate NY and Boston and Iowa and California.
I think the idea that the Confederacy means an individual’s right to do whatever they want, including discriminate, cheat the system and destroy the environment, is part of that code that has been used seductively by the right wing.
Now Tr and his administration aren’t even bothering with the more subtle codes that signal racism. They’re just openly parading.
schrodingers_cat
@August West: As an immigrant who didn’t go to grade school here I am still learning about US History that most probably learn when they are in school.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@schrodingers_cat: That was far more in depth than I would have expected in high school
ETA: Grade school history as I experienced it was just a survey of some of the very most major things. I never heard the phrase Copperhead before today.
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: I know the broad outlines but am still learning the minute details. This is a knowledgeable group.
ETA: I knew about the Copperheads because I saw Lincoln and did some background reading after I saw the movie. When I was in Philly for a conference I went to see the Liberty Bell and the Constitution Hall, and I asked the Park Ranger about why Philadelphia and not Boston or NYC as a venue to write the Constitution. So that’s where I learned about that piece of history.
Ruckus
@Kent:
There are many rural parts of CA which are pretty strongly republican. They aren’t usually as republican/racist as many rural parts of other states but there are a fair number of people who live in those areas, even though the density is a lot lower than the Bay area or the LA area.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I’m sort of in the same boat. Until college history was rote memorization of dates and you got the biggest names and got overviews of logically grouped time periods but not much in depth. It was tedious, I hated it.
In college, I love history. We look at things more closely and get to analyze. I agree, you can get some great history lessons here too.
So why?
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: As a physics major I didn’t take any history classes.
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: They were in British hands and sites of active battles IIRC.
kindness
Trump was raised in Queens which is technically NYC but really it’s just the city part of Long Island. And don’t kid yourself, there are folks there that are racist as hell. ex – the Trump family.
schrodingers_cat
@kindness: One of the two T voters I know personally is from Long Island.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@schrodingers_cat: The diversity requirements at my school have science majors take two history classes. I chose Early US History and forget the name of the other but something like Europe in 19th and 20th century.
Then there was the East Asian history from 1500-1800 I took that I was doing well in until I just didn’t do a component of the final
Well, glad that’s done with.
Matt McIrvin
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: The western end of Massachusetts is part of what I call Greater Vermont: the one area in the whole United States where rural white people vote Democratic. I think the anomalous nature of this area is part of Bernie Sanders’ difficulty with actually being a viable national candidate.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@Matt McIrvin: That’s true, but it isn’t just there. I haven’t obsessively gone over NH or ME electoral maps like I have MA, but NH is pretty rural and it’s blue trend has been going pretty strong. Maine’s rural district is at least evenly split.
schrodingers_cat
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: New England is special!
jonas
@Aleta: Yep, if it were just a simple token of “southern heritage,” why the hell are rednecks in UP Michigan and Pennsylvania flying it?
Matt McIrvin
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: Yeah, the region definitely extends into at least part of NH and maybe even New York. (The most reactionary part of New Hampshire is the suburban corner closest to Boston, where people go to be outside of Taxachusetts.)
Maine, I’m less sure about.
Michael Cain
@joel hanes: The older lady who taught the Iowa history unit when I was in grade school in the NW part of the state in the 1960s spent considerable time on the fact that the prevalent local attitude at the time of the Civil War was that the War was wasting resources that would be better spent on the genocidal campaign against Native Americans.
Krope, the Formerly Dope
@schrodingers_cat: Damn right.
catclub
make TIDOS better known
Krope, the Formerly Dope
I hate that trope. MA taxes are very average at the state level. We pay more fed taxes because on average we make a lot of money. I don’t, but that’s what the data I’ve seen says.
jonas
@Ruckus: Boy howdy are there some red parts of California — basically from Bakersfield straight up to Redding and all the northern Sierra counties, minus some pockets around Fresno and Sacramento. Libs are always telling them what pesticides they can spray on their crops, which owls they’re not allowed to drive to extinction, or which rivers they’re not allowed to divert or drain dry to irrigate their crops, or how they have to provide drinking water and bathroom breaks for the illegals who harvest the crops. It never ends…
J R in WV
@Kent:
There’s money in raising stumps? You carve out a stump farm???
I are cornfused now…. ;-)
jonas
@Krope, the Formerly Dope: I don’t think MA’s taxes are really any higher than the rest of New England. This is a high tax/high benefit area and, as the parent of a special needs kid who gets all kinds of great educational and therapeutic services where we live in NY, I’m continually on my knees thanking FSM that I don’t live in Texas or Tennessee or Missouri or some other state where they regularly sacrifice disabled kids at the altar of Moloch-Lowtax, believe you me.
jefft452
@schrodingers_cat:
“New England is special!”
Aeyup