It seems like multiple people here are thinking about summer camps this year, trying to make a responsible decision about what’s safe and what’s not?
So let’s talk.
Do you have questions? Answers?
Why would you send your kid to summer camp this year? If not, why not?
Do you have data that could aid in the decision? What are people around you doing?
Are some states allowing summer camps, and others not?
Update: If you are talking about what is allowed in your area, it is probably helpful if you identify the area, at least in general terms.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Are you ready for the summer?
Are you ready for the sunshine?
Are you ready for the birds and bees,
the apple trees,
and a whole lot of fooling around
No more pencils, no more books
No more teachers dirty looks
No more math and history,
Summer time has set us free
Are you ready for the summer?
Are you ready for the good times?
john b
We’re sending our kid to a local YMCA day camp for next week, and potentially more weeks later in the summer. It is a YMCA on a lake and most of the activities should be outside. We’re concerned, but this is one of the risks that we’re allowing for the prospect of a fairly decent and enriching summer.
Old Dan and Little Ann
My parents had this discussion last week., They both turn 77 this summer. Apparently my mom would have sent me off if this happened 35+ years ago. My dad is in the fuck no camp, I would be uneasy sending my kid to camp right now.
Eural Joiner
Sorta related question, just putting it out there for anyone knowledgable/opinionated: my wife and I put a deposit down this February for a 4 night stay in Yellowstone National Park in September to celebrate our 30th anniversary (it’s where we meet 31 years ago). Should we keep it as is and hope for the best? Cancel and reschedule when life starts cooperating? Is it possible to keep the deposit and move the dates to 2021?
I know it’s not kids camp but thought I’d get a collective opinion :)
debbie
Data will be harder to get now. Assholes just drove Dr. Amy Acton from her position as Ohio’s Director of Health.
C Stars
Thank you, Water Girl!
Here’s what our county is allowing:
Over the last couple of months we’ve joined up with my parents, who live about an hour away and are high risk. If we send the kids to a camp or “bubble” with another group, we probably won’t be seeing the grandparents for a while.
My concern with summer camp is that it seems like a pretty high chance that the virus will be passed around both among kids and their families. If the school district isn’t even ready to commit to in-person learning at this point (which it is not), then why would camps be safer? But if camps are considered OK…my kids would LOVE the opportunity to play with kids their age. I just don’t want to be naive about the risks.
mali muso
Thanks for this thread. We are considering sending our 3 year old back to daycare soon, but I’m still hesitant. She misses the structure and playing with her peers and talks about it daily. My work has been pretty flexible, so the fact that I have to spend much of my daytime hours keeping her busy has not been an issue, but I’m starting to run up against projects and things that will take more of my mental space than I can afford in 20-30 minute increments. Our area has passed it’s projected peak and the hospital system is well equipped in terms of capacity. But yeah…I just don’t know. It doesn’t feel like there are any good choices without trade-offs.
Rusty
We have a different perspective, having had our youngest hospitalized for six days (last month, now home doing fine) with the pediatric inflammatory syndrome, we are passing on any camps. Putting kids to together in the less structured environment of camp (masks, social distancing, are you kidding?), we are likely to see a rise in the number of cases. Add in that it increases community spread, and it seems like more risk than it’s worth. I recognize that for a lot of families, camp is childcare for the summer and a serious issue. Depending the state and the spread of coronavirus, I don’t think they should be blanket closed down because they are needed by lots of families without a stay at home parent. On the other hand, if you are sending your child really just for recreation, I would really take some time to consider how important camp really is to your child.
OGLiberal
I’ve never sent the kids to camp so not a decision I have to make but have a lot of camps around us up here in Northeast PA. I don’t know from experience but it strikes me that in a camp full of kids, especially a sleep-away camp, it would be very, very difficult to enforce any kind of reasonable social distancing. And not sure it would be very fun is you could and did enforce actual social distancing.
Then there’s the fact that the sleepover camps up here cost an insane amount of money. Camp Towanda, where the original Wet Hot American Summer was filmed, was over $13K per camper last year. Maybe that’s normal/average but seems just nuts to me. (of course, there are plenty of folks from NYC/NJ who have the $$$ to fill these camps up with their kids each Summer)
frosty
@Eural Joiner: Where are you staying in Yellowstone? If hotel, no. If camping, yes.
Haroldo
These days particularly:
Ain’t no cure for the summertime blues
P.S. Never sent the kids to camp.
Gin & Tonic
My wife and I have long been involved in various positions with an organization that, among other activities, runs summer camps for kids roughly 6-18, in three locations, two of them in NY State. These are all what are called “sleep-away” – kids are there 2-3 weeks. Plans for this summer were canceled a couple of months ago. To the best of my knowledge, as of last week NYS had not reached a decision about whether to conduct sleep-away camps, but even if they end up being allowed, it’s too late. Preparations would have needed to begin some time ago, temporary staff hired, etc. You can’t do this in a couple of weeks.
Amir Khalid
@Eural Joiner:
Option one seems a touch optimistic, given where the US is on Covid-19. I’d go with option two, and ask the resort if they’ll agree to postpone the reservation and not make you forfeit the deposit. (Not to alarm you, but there’s a non-zero chance that you’ll face this problem again in 2021.)
raven
Athens-Clarke County Rec said no, the Y is up and running.
low-tech cyclist
I’m in southern Maryland. The county-run day camp that my 12 year old son would have attended let us know a few weeks ago that they were canceling the entire summer’s schedule. I’m looking into virtual camps, and I’m a Federal worker with a few weeks’ worth of use-or-lose that I’m planning to burn, just doing stuff with him.
If there were a real camp available for him to attend locally, there are two conditions that I’d regard as mandatory: (a) the camp would have to be almost entirely outdoors in dry weather (if it rained, I’d go pick him up and bring him home so he didn’t have to spend much time inside with others), and (b) they’d have to wear masks in close-contact activities.
I think that set of conditions would suffice for me. Not sure how my wife would feel, but then, it’s a totally hypothetical question right now.
Louise B.
@Eural Joiner: are you driving there or flying? If driving, I would go, even if you are staying in a hotel. If you are flying, I think I would cancel.
Barbara
All of our camps have been cancelled. We are still trying to come up with a plan.
C Stars
@Rusty: Was the inflammatory syndrome your kid had related to a COVID infection? That’s a very scary prospect; my youngest (a second-grader) has a respiratory issue that has never been dire, but it does cause him to get a couple of terrifying cases of croup each year. I wonder about his vulnerability to this illness despite his age. He is also struggling emotionally and extremely lonely in the absence of playtime with friends (the older one is coping much better). For us day camp would represent both childcare (allowing us to work more during the day) and recreational/emotional respite for our kids
ETA: I’m glad your kid is recovering!!
feebog
I would love to send my son to Summer Camp this year, but he turns 47 tomorrow. Anyone know of a 24/7 Tiki Bar in Southern California?
chopper
my kids’ overnight camps were already shut down. others i’m meh on. maybe bicycle camp, since the kids all stay apart since they’re mostly riding the whole time. i dunno tho, i’m mostly agin’ it.
Crashman06
@mali muso: I get your hesitancy. Thinking about sending our eighteen month old back to daycare very soon as well. Most summer camps have been cancelled which makes things hard for our oldest (7). Our jobs have been flexible but caring for both of them and homeschooling the older one has been so, so hard. We’re really both at the end of our ropes and need relief…
Rusty
@C Stars: Yes, related to COVID-19, I should have been more clear. Caught early, a very proactive response (the advantage of a level 1 trauma and teaching hospital in upstate NY. They were super tuned into what was happening in NYC and had the right skills in place), and he recovered quickly.
Quaker in a Basement
Hard no.
The camps my kid usually attends draws families from all over the country. Too many states seeing new spikes of infection. Better a lost year than a lost life.
Ascap_scab
I did a two week YMCA camp when I was 10yo. It was a great experience and really gave me a taste of independence that has stayed with me.
And while, if I had kids, I would want them to get that same taste of freedom, I wouldn’t send them at this time. I’m sure there must be other ways to teach independence and free will without subjecting them to an out of control pandemic.
C Stars
@Barbara: I thought all the camps in the Bay Area were cancelled other than those for the kids of essential workers. But I learned last week that many are running, and most are already full. There are two camps we may be able to get into but I just don’t know whether/how hard to push for this outcome. I’ve been a freelancer/stay at home parent for almost a decade, and finally, earlier this year, got a job in a field I’m trying to pivot to. It’s heartbreaking to me, but I might have to leave it now to take care of the kids again, esp. if my new job starts requiring me to be in the office, or if school doesn’t run at all in the fall. I just don’t know what to do.
raven
@Ascap_scab: A friend described the Y camp here as “The Lord of the Flies with a little religion thrown in”!
Crashman06
@C Stars: I’m sorry; I sympathize. This really is an impossible situation for parents.
Cowboy Diva
WA state’s Girl Scout Camps all canceled all of this summer’s sleep-away camps a couple of months ago. They knew they did not have the resources to protect staff/campers from a COVID flare. A Girl Scout day camp that is held in a nearby county (this year, one of the hardest-hit counties in WA state0 has also been canceled for the summer. Junior is sad, but given the rather abrupt end of the school year, the cancellation of the school play, SeattlePride, and the delayed Seattle ComiCon, the kid is sad about a lot of things.
raven
@Crashman06: The day care that is behind our house is open, I can hear the little buggers but I can’t see what the setup in the playground is. They sure as hell aren’t masked.
Just One More Canuck
Hot Fun in the Summertime
Martin
i think the answer depends a lot on the camp. Most of the camps I’ve got experience with were primarily run by HS age students with a few adults at the top. They were designed around doing fun stuff but on a tight budget. Yes, they had a nurse on staff, but I wouldn’t trust these to necessarily provide a safe environment during a pandemic. Swim safety – sure – they’ve probably been doing that for decades. Understand that most camps are run as profit-making efforts to cover a range of expenses that the hosting organization are incurring the rest of the year. IOW, they are only reinvesting part of your fees into the camp.
Institutionally what we are now facing is how to do the things we are normally good at, as well as public health efforts which we are learning as we go, with no federal help, and relatively little guidance – and what guidance we do have is qualified in many ways, because how to protect from the virus is not well understood. I have no question that some organizations are well prepared for this, but most are not.
And the other question to ask them, is what happens when a camper gets sick? We’ve canceled our camps not because we didn’t think we could keep most of the students safe – we’re fairly convinced we’ve got that, but if a camper does get sick (especially from outside the camp) then we would need to send that group of students home and refund money, and the thing that we designed to generate revenue would instead be costing us money – a lot of it. So our inclination would be to resist shutting it down to avoid that situation, and we decided the upside benefits weren’t worth the risk.
So, who is running the camp, do they have a natural inclination to know how to handle a public health issue, and are they so dependent on the revenue from the camp that they will strongly resist shutting it down if an infection is found. Those are the questions I’d be asking.
I will also note that in most states the risk of getting infected today is greater than it was in March or April. If you wouldn’t have sent your kid out then, they are more likely to get sick now.
Crashman06
@raven: It’s going to be near impossible to keep the little ones masked. My 7 year old pulls it down at every opportunity so I imagine it’d be even worse for younger kids.
C Stars
@Rusty: I’m so glad you had that resource and it was caught early.
Martin
@feebog: There are a few, actually.
Roger Moore
@feebog:
Sadly, bars here in California are not allowed to stay open 24 hours a day.
C Stars
@Martin:
I will also note that in most states the risk of getting infected today is greater than it was in March or April. If you wouldn’t have sent your kid out then, they are more likely to get sick now.
Yeah, this is kind of what’s at the top of my mind right now. Obviously, as everything opens up in a big rush, there will be more virus around. We haven’t even been going to grocery stores, so the idea of suddenly putting my six-year-old (who is terrible at masking/washing hands/keeping distance) in a big group of other folks…it feels like a lot.
On the other hand, my husband and I are in our mid 40s and have none of the comorbities. And the kids aren’t statistically likely to get sick…… Do we risk it? I have no idea.
Scout211
https://covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-schools.pdf
Here are California’s new guidelines for schools and camps. Most counties are okay to open schools and camps tomorrow.
Ol'Froth
We were planning on sending our 10 year old back to Girl Scout camp, but GSWPA cancelled all summer overnight and day camps last month. Even if they hadn’t, we’d be giving some hard thought about her going back this summer. On the other hand, we are letting her participate in her youth softball program this summer.
rikyrah
Peanut isn’t going. :(
She lives with one immuno-compromised grandma.
And visits the other one.
We can’t take the risk of her being asymptomatic.
Martin
@Roger Moore: They can stay open 24 hours, they just have to stop serving between 2 and 6 am. Just gonna have to nurse that 2am drink a long time.
NotMax
What follows is addressed only to sleepaway camps and is also not intended to be a complete list, more a jumping off point. Regardless, it’s a tough call.
1) Times and circumstances demand the owners be grilled as to how seriously they regard the virus and whether or not they fall into the lackadaisical faction when it comes to themselves having followed the lockdown measures their own community implemented this spring.
2) The risk will never be zero but can be reduced significantly as sleepaway camps are near (and can be made nearer) to a closed ecosystem. What steps will be put in place this year to differ from years past to achieve that?
3) Are 100% of the staff and employees required to have a clean test before the campers arrive?
4) Will at the least minimal (as in wearing masks) procedures be required and enforced for outsiders (food delivery personnel, farrier if the camp includes a stable, trash collectors, etc.)?
5) Is laundry done on site or contracted to an outside service?
6) Who staffs the infirmary and what are their qualifications?
7) Does all support staff (kitchen, maintenance, etc.) live on site full time while camp is in session?
8) Is there a plan in place should any symptoms appear? If so, what is that plan?
9) Are parental visits to be strictly limited or jettisoned altogether this year?
10) Are counselors permitted to leave on days off and then return?
11) Will there be inter-camp athletics? If so, will those include any contact sports?
12) Will sanitizing wipedowns of seating and tables in common areas be performed regularly? On what schedule?
.
Shall leave it at those, for a start. Could probably come up with dozens more given the time but those strike me as the most important, IMHO.
raven
@Crashman06: So do I!
Kelly
We live at the end of a gravel road in the woods where two rivers meet. With a great swimming hole and child safe float trips. We’re in our early 60’s. My Mom lives next door and is in her early 80’s. We have kinda been summer camp for our 9 grandchildren. They usually get a week each here away from their annoying siblings. The kids all live in town. Their parents are doing their best to maintain isolation but can they really keep the kids from seeing their neighborhood friends? For months? Oregon coronavirus infections are on the upswing. We have very reluctantly decided we can’t risk it this summer.
WaterGirl
@C Stars: My take is this. I continually remind myself that these policies are not in place to ensure that I won’t get COVID. Or to ensure that you won’t get COVID.
The polices are in place in order to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.
The policies are in place so that when YOUR bubble gets infected, the outbreak is contained to a smaller group of people.
As soon as they allow you to participate in TWO bubbles at once, to me that makes it very likely that someone(s) will get COVID.
Two bubbles of 12 = 24 people who are not necessarily related as families, with no strong existing ties. All it takes is ONE person in one of the two bubbles to say break the rules and then everyone more at risk again.
I would not put my safety in the hands of relative stranger.
Now I’ll go back and read the rest of the comments and find out why that’s the wrong take, :-)
raven
@feebog: I just installed a reed mat ceiling in my shop, would that do?
Martin
@C Stars: The job changes the equation. A lot of people work risky jobs because they need to and make other life decisions that increase risk in order to have a good job and take care of their family. It’s just a matter of finding that balance.
I lot of people are only weighing the enrichment/non-enrichment tradeoff, you’re weighing more substantial issues that I would argue necessitate taking more risk. It’s hard, no question, but something will feel right.
raven
@WaterGirl: Here’s an apple war at the Adventure Playground at Meadowbrook in 78 or so.
C Stars
@Crashman06: Thank you, and good luck with your little ones as well.
Death Panel Truck
Now I’ll have the Live at Leeds version stuck in my head all afternoon, and I’d like to thank you for that. ?
raven
@Death Panel Truck: Try the Blue Cheer version.
WaterGirl
@C Stars:
That seals it for me. Surely not what you want to hear, but if this were my child, my answer would be a hard no.
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
It’s actually worse than that. If it were just two bubbles and 24 people, it would be a slightly bigger version of the original bubble. The worry is that if you can be part of two bubbles and someone else who is in one of your bubbles is in a different second bubble from you, then it expands to 36 people. It pretty quickly expands to the point where they aren’t bubbles anymore. Bubbles are only bubbles if they’re closed. If they’re allowed to overlap, they stop working.
The analogy I would immediately jump to is the one of STDs. There’s the old saw that when you sleep with someone, you’re effectively sleeping with all their other partners- and all their partners, and their partners, etc. The same thing is true of a bubble.
pamelabrown53
@raven:
A tiki shop! I’ve always said you’re creative.
WaterGirl
@raven: What’s an apple war?
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: You are so right. I had a similar thought, and then I got interrupted and when I came back, it had fallen out of my head.
I have been using the STD analogy for quite awhile now and could not agree more.
laura
@rikyrah: I saw your comment in an am thread and my heart sank thinking about the conversation between you and your peanut – and knowing you did the hard right thing.
Ohio Mom
Eural Joiner: I think a big question is, Will your lodgings have windows you can open (is it warm enough in Wyoming in September to keep the windows cracked)? What I’ve been reading is that fresh, circulating air is your best defense.
I’d stay away from any activities in closed spaces (bus tours, indoor lectures, that sort of thing) but since everything to see in Yellowstone is outdoors — well, except for eating. Hmmm… Get take-out?
Here in Ohio Family, we’re facing a big business trip Ohio Dad is scheduled to take next week, to Las Vegas of all places.
He’ll be at a warehouse far from the Strip; what we are trying to strategize is the airplane rides and the lodgings.
How crowded will be the plane be? Will mask-wearing be strictly enforced? I don’t think there is a way to get answers to those questions in advance. Is it better to sit in the back of the plane, behind everyone breathing forward?
We are thinking an extended stay place with a kitchen, to cut down on time in restaurants.
Ohio Dad is new at this job, this trip is not optional and it’s too soon for him to think about retiring. He’s in a high-risk group. I think I’m in for a very anxious month. Gulp.
Jerry
I’m in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill part (the Triangle) of North Carolina and we’re sending our kid to an outdoor only daycamp next week. She’ll get to do some farming and ride some ponies. The camp people have outlined their plans for distancing of the kids and a strict cleaning regimen. I’ll ask her on Monday when I pick her up how it went and if she says that the camp people didn’t stick to their promise, then we’ll ixnay the rest of the week.
Lyrebird
I feel less bad about being at the end of mine! but like
@rikyrah’s little Peanut
we have daily contact with a grandma and also, youngest in our house may be at high risk. Can’t opt out.
Thus far, keeping masks on for 20min in a doctor’s office has worked, but all day?
DropDminus
My oldest decided to pass on Boy Scout camp this summer. The troop and the camp are working very hard to put together a safe plan and I give them credit for trying. That said, what it took to make camp “safe” also drained it of almost all the things he actually enjoyed about it (total isolation from other troops, strict social distancing even within the troop with no communal meals or card games played in tents during the inevitable rainy days, limited activities, and restrictions on movement etc). My wife and I were neutral about it but we weren’t exactly upset when he decided to pass. Evaluating camp opportunities for kids this summer is going to entail a lot of this balancing between fun and safe.
Percysowner
@debbie: God Damn It! Well I guess Ohio wants to become like Arizona now, all while hiding the real numbers of the pandemic. I admired DeWine for his quick action in shutting down the state, but in the end he’s just another cowardly Republican.
And he will continue to say he’s “Right To Life” while letting thousands die because of his cowardice.
Barbara
@C Stars: Temporary nanny? Probably worth the expense if it’s just for the summer. Wishing you the best of luck. My son is a teenager. Mostly, it’s just making sure he doesn’t spend the entire time looking at a screen.
rikyrah
@Ohio Mom:
If he doesn’t wear glasses, give him some goggles- for the airplane. Even if he does wear glasses, give him some goggles. I can’t forget that doctor on Nicole Wallace who says he thinks he got it from an airplane – through his eye.
As for the room. Pack him up some wipes and have him wipe down everything in hotel room.
Tell him he better wear a mask, and take hand sanitizer with him wherever he goes. (I am not a gloves wearer because I think they give you a false sense of security. I will take my paranoia and the hand sanitizer).
When he can – tell him to eat room service.
C Stars
@WaterGirl: Yeah, that doesn’t sound good, does it?
The fact is, it would be much better for our finances, as well, if we took a break from camp this year. So that’s where we’re leaning. But it’s going to be hard hard hard for the kids, for the family unit, and for my and spouse’s stress levels. But I guess most families with young kids are going through this, more or less.
In the short term, spouse has some “covid leave” time that he can take, so at least there’s that.
Barbara
@DropDminus: Every scout camp we were supposed to be participating in has cancelled, in Virginia and in New Mexico. The local ones are doing “home camping,” which means that kids will have the opportunity to do activities that lead to badges, with some daily mentoring by video-conference, with an additional opportunity to spend four days camping in a family only unit on location.
Barbara
@C Stars: If you do have to go to an office, ask the employer whether they have made any arrangements for back up or summer daycare. My office teamed with the on-site daycare, now closed, to provide day care to employees in their homes. It’s not full-time, but I know many have found it to be really helpful even if it’s for one or two days a week.
raven
@WaterGirl: A bunch of kids throwing apples at each other. Like a snowball fight. That was quite a summer, we gave them building supplies and tools and let em have at it. Your local Habitat director’s mom was my boss and they lived at the house out there.
Mustang Bobby
One of the oldest and most-respected summer camps in the country is Cheley Colorado Camps in Estes Park, founded in 1921. Cheley offers two four-week sessions (some kids stay for both) on the border of Rocky Mountain National Park in eight different units, including two ranches, for ages 9-17. I went there as a camper in 1964 and worked as a counselor for ten summers from 1976 to 1986. They offer western riding, hiking and backpacking through the wilderness, and teaching how to live with and care for the outdoors.
This week they announced that they are cancelling their summer sessions. It would have been their 100th. They chose to err on the side of caution, and while it breaks my heart, I think it was the right thing to do.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
Hot town, summer in the city
Back of my neck getting dirty and gritty
Been down, isn’t it a pity
Doesn’t seem to be a shadow in the city
All around, people looking half dead
Walking on the sidewalk, hotter than a match head
But at night it’s a different world
Go out and find a girl
Come-on come-on and dance all night
Despite the heat it’ll be alright
And babe, don’t you know it’s a pity
That the days can’t be like the nights
In the summer, in the city
In the summer, in the city
terraformer
The thing that most bothers me about summer camps is our dependent care account.
Unlike health care savings accounts, which carry over into the following year, dependent care accounts are “use it or lose it.” Obviously, the pandemic makes it rather difficult to spend those funds for various summer camps that were planned.
While the feds graciously allowed us to change our contributions to them, they have yet to pass a measure that allows people to reallocate funds that are already stuck in the account. Or at least I haven’t seen or heard any changes. To us, that amounts to about $1,500.
I’d hate to think that congress won’t pass some relief for this, as it’s something so obviously out of our control. But given the penchant for focusing solely on the super-rich, I’m not sanguine…
Miss Bianca
We cancelled our Creativity Camp, which is my theater’s two-week day camp for the 6-12 yo set. We decided it was just going to be too hard to practice social distancing during theater games.
WaterGirl
@C Stars: In case it’s useful to you, here’s what I take from your comments, if I try to really listen to what you are saying.
I come away with the feeling that you already know you you think you should do; that you are looking/hoping for some piece of information that will allow you to make some other choice.
To be clear, I don’t mean that it a judgmental way at all. Maybe try going back and reading your comments as if they were someone else’s comments? That could be illuminating!
Matt McIrvin
Not sending the kid anywhere this summer. It’s a bit easier since she’s a well-behaved teenager and doesn’t require perpetual supervision. But boredom will be an issue, I know–it already is even with schoolwork in the mix.
ceece
end of August, we are part of a planned family reunion trip to Yosemite. 12 people in a big rental cabin, dry weather expected. college-age grandkids coming in from 4 states. Most everyone would drive there, except the Fox news viewer grandparents who don’t believe there’s any problem and would be VERY upset if we canceled their anniversary party.
What would you all do?
opiejeanne
@Cowboy Diva: I don’t think I’d be sending my kids this year if they were still kids. Still too dangerous I think.
I checked and the United Methodist Pacific Conference camps in SoCal were all canceled at the end of May. It’s really a shame because the camps were a week long and inexpensive (Mine cost $25 for one week, it costs $450 for the same experience). I went two years in a row, when I was 11 and 12, and It was great; one was Wrightwood in the San Bernardino Mountains, the other was Lazy W in a canyon in the Cleveland Range, not far from Capistrano.
Our son went one year to a camp in the San Gabriel Mountains that you have to hike a couple of miles to get to, and it was built with supplies brought in on pack animals, and had a swimming pool with a big slide.
WaterGirl
@ceece: There are 13 of us who converge in Chicago for Christmas. States represented: Illinois, Michigan, North Carolina, Nevada (Las Vegas). Cities represented: 7. Schools represented: 5.
Christmas 2018, a small number of the 13 started out sick, by the end of the visit, everyone but me had it. That’s 12 out of 13.
I worked for the Obama campaign in Colorado for the 18 days before the caucus in February. When we arrived, many people who worked out of that office were sick, and by the election EVERYONE based in that office was sick, except for me and my partner. That was a whole lot of people.
Proximity matters. Maybe I’m too cautious, but I am not screwing around with COVID. Frustration, boredom, disappointment, loneliness. Those are all temporary. Dead is dead, and potentially permanent health issues are permanent.
The less I know about something, the more cautious I am, and the more respect I show it. Like electricity, I know just enough to know that I don’t want to be fooling around with it. We just don’t know enough about COVID long-term to make it worth the risk.
trollhattan
We belonged to a swim club where the kiddo spent part of her summers at day camp–it worked out great for both we working parents and her. She later worked there, mostly at the snack bar. Good experience learning responsibilities and opportunity to boss around some kids. In sum, ten or so very beneficial summers.
We gave up our membership and are out of the loop, but their activity calendar is empty so I’m assuming they’re closed. Coincidentally, our very last formal social event before lockdown was the soccer end-of-year party held there. Little did we realize what a big last of, that represented–last of soccer, last of sports, last of high school, last party, last time out for an evening….
I would not send her back, if she were young and it was open this summer. I do not see how they could safely finagle managing a hundred or more kids ages six to sixteen, plus staff, parents, etc. I don’t even see how you could have lap swimming.
Ryan
Do they come back?
Another Scott
DOD lifted travel restrictions to 39 states and 5 countries.
If the state where your proposed summer camp isn’t listed, one might want to be even more careful.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
rikyrah — Goggles! Did not think of that but we will definitely find some. If nothing else, it will keep Ohio Dad from rubbing his eyes, which a mask does not prevent.
Thanks!
Nora Lenderbee
@raven: That matches my experience at summer camp.
WaterGirl
@raven: I’m almost afraid to hear how they would describe music camp.
joel hanes
I probably wouldn’t send the kids.
But I’d look for a way to contribute to the the camp organizations, because I want them to survive the next three years.
(!Ding! As soon as I’m done writing this, I need to donate to a beloved camp or two.)
But my kids are all grown, and their kids grown, and my great-grandson is too young for camp.
rikyrah
@WaterGirl:
Say it for the bleacher seats.
rikyrah
@ceece:
I think that you are crazy. 12 people in anything other than a mansion?
Nope.
Nope.
More nope.
Old Dan and Little Ann
Our most popular sleep away camp cancelled their summer. I spent 7 summers their as a kid. Some of the best memories of my childhood. It sucks for campers and all the young counselors and counselors in training. Better safe than sorry.
The Moar You Know
You see a child, I see a vector. If I had kids they’d be locked in the house.
You can’t ask kids to not see their friends. They will. You can’t ask them to do social distancing. They won’t. And you can’t tell them the consequences and have it mean ANYTHING to them, because the mind of a kid doesn’t work that way. Mom and Dad are immortal.
I don’t have kids. But my wife is a teacher, and it looks like they’re going back into the classroom in August. 30 kids per class. They won’t be six feet apart. Hell, they won’t be four feet apart. The district is providing shit cloth masks and hand sanitizer. Whoopee. I expect both her and I to be dead by Halloween at the latest, she’s got asthma, I’ve got some vascular issues, and we are both over 50. So nice to be considered expendable.
FlyingToaster
WarriorGirl was booked for 10 weeks of day camps / summer courses, up heah in Bwahstin.
5 weeks are outright cancelled. And I don’t blame the Museum of Science nor the Museum of Fine Arts. Indoor classes in classrooms/lab rooms would get people killed. We donated a bit of the fee and took the rest back as a refund.
1 week is definitely virtual; normally there are 4 regional fiddle camps (Fiddle Pal /American Fiddle Masters); they’ve been consolidated into two (June for the Midwesterners already out of school; August for the New Englanders who still have a week or two to go). It’ll be Zoom, 9-4, not unlike school for the past 12 weeks.
We’re still waiting to hear from Maker camp. They’ve been running online classes for the past 5 weeks; my money right now is that the June/July weeks go virtual, and we’ll wait to see about August. I am hoping to add some weeks there in July if they do go virtual.
Massachusetts Phase 2 guidelines (it’s 2A, 2B, 2C, from what I can tell, covering June & July) have okayed outdoor day camps with <=10 campers per unit, always stay together (no class switching), no more than 2 instructors, no class switching. No residential camps.
Pools are not open, and there’s no date for opening. Beaches are open with distancing.
Re: infection rates: We got a bump today over earlier in the week; this may well be our “protest bump”, which is guaranteed to defeat any contact tracing. City of Boston set up a walk-in-testing station yesterday, which is almost certainly where these numbers are coming from.
As a parent, I wouldn’t risk sending WG to an indoor camp (which all of hers are at least partially); I am very leery of sending her back to school in September, at least not full time.
Another Scott
This seems flabbergasting to me, but FWIW – https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/06/yet-another-study-says-school-closures-have-no-impact-on-covid-19/
I think Drum’s summary may be too strong, but it does look like schools are not an important vector for community spread. That is, looking at the graph, it says that school closing makes things slightly worse. If that holds up, it must have more to do with something other than the schools themselves (kids playing more with other kids in the neighborhood instead of being in school; parents having to change their routines for lack of childcare during the day; similar stuff).
And, of course, social distancing is effectively closing schools and churches, so separating them out is challenging.
Dunno. But, FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
J R in WV
@Ohio Mom:
I try to always fly Delta, they have lots of flights out of WV, and once you’re in Atlanta you can get anywhere. The point is I get lots of informational emails from Delta. They no longer sell middle seats, they disinfect things between flights, their employees have a Covid-19 20% that of the population at large. They are taking things seriously.
So Ohio Dad should if possible fly Delta, and wear a GOOD respirator/masks. Not an inexpensive disposable mask, an industrial mask with replaceable filter units.
I dunno what to say about Las Vegas, have a cousin living there, young, teaching Chem at UNLV, don’t much worry about him.
Sounds like a room with kitchen would work, room service would work too, if the business would cover that cost, and why wouldn’t they? Versus losing a job… just be really careful, wear a mask ALL THE TIME, even if it isn’t a high-end industrial respirator mask.
trollhattan
@FlyingToaster:
Blink, and it will be here. We’re, as of 11:00 today, officially completed with our public school experience and college looms in August–sleepaway camp+school. They plan to begin mid-August, a week early and dispense with coming back to class after Thanksgiving. We shall see how that plan looks in another month.
I suspect the schools will have to teach half classes in two shifts, but what do I know?
My spouse is sick (heh) of the whole thing and is convinced it’s all going to work itself out, soon. I’m more of the mindset that whatever is in place come 2022 is our normal-normal and unlikely to return to the old-normal any further. I have my doubts about a vaccine, which colors my outlook considerably.
J R in WV
@Another Scott:
So if shelter-in-place orders have been lifted, DOD believes that means a location is more SAFE than a location WITH stay at home orders? That sounds cray-cray wrong to me!!!
Right now states (like Arizona!) which have lifted stay at home orders are having infections sky-rocket into the stratosphere.
Another Scott
@J R in WV: The “and”s are vitally important there…
But, yeah, many states that looked like they were doing Ok when they ended their lockdowns are not going to be looking so good soon…
(Presumably states that still have stay-at-home orders in place aren’t going to be having camps and such open anyway.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Gvg
My nephew and his friends miss each other a lot. He graduated 5th grade so it was his last year in a small private school with the same classmates he had had since 2nd grade. They talk online and are really sad. I wish it could be different. His mom is a doctor and gets exposed, then gets tested. She has been using another doctors college kid as childcare because of the exposure issue. The docs have opposite shifts. We can’t see the nephew because grandparents are late 70’s with health issues and I try to take care of them. His summer is going to be pretty boring and no idea how fall will go.
Dr. Omed
@ceece: Stay home.
Starfish
@Eural Joiner: We just went for some day hikes in Rocky Mountain National Park. The wearing of masks was inconsistent among hikers. There were not that many people during the week so that part seemed okay. Things seem to be busier on weekends.
Starfish
We are doing a couple of virtual camps and more hiking.
This seems to be the hardest on the kids under six and their parents. Kids under six need more support. Parents can’t both be working and supporting the kids. Also, kids under six are really upset that their whole lives have been turned upside down. They don’t understand that not having friends over or not going to camp is not a punishment. Some of those children are inconsolable.
low-tech cyclist
@raven:
Yeah, that’s the version I grew up on, when I was a kid in the 1960s still listening to AM radio, where it got airplay. Good version, though – a lot of good stuff made it to AM back then. (A lot of garbage too, but that’s true everywhere.)
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
Thanks for the earworm – Lovin’ Spoonful’s Summer in the City is a great song. Another example of good stuff getting through to AM radio back in the day.
glc
Seems obvious to me nobody should be sending their kids to camp, deliberately infecting them, or washing them in bleach, regardless of whether it is allowed.
My grandson is supposed to start school in September. I don’t see how that will be possible.
Brachiator
Maybe late to the thread, but I wanted to note that I heard a story about more people driving for summer holidays than flying anywhere. Also that people are making reservations at parks and campgrounds and also renting accommodations for an entire month. Motels and Airbnb are doing gangbusters business. Traditional hotels are not.
C Stars
@Starfish: Yep. My ten year old can deal. Socializing has just moved to screens, but it still happens on an almost daily basis. It’s not great, but manageable and the ten year old is pretty good at occupying themself when not socializing on screens.
But my six year old both doesn’t like, and is not good at, socializing via screen, and is clearly and heartbreakingly really lonely. And he just needs physical play that he’s not getting; that my spouse and I can’t provide. I make myself engage in at least one half-hour wrestling session with him a day, and that helps, but he needs like five more of those a day, and with people his own size. Which, I am realizing as I write this, probably wouldn’t be allowed at camp, either. But would probably happen anyway
C Stars
@The Moar You Know: Ugh, I’m sorry. THIRTY KIDS?! Where do you live that they are doing this? Here in the Bay Area they’re talking MAYBE twelve kids per class, and short outside school periods. Of course they’ve also just opened up summer camps, so I guess all bets will be off from the beginning…
WaterGirl
@C Stars: Would a dog help?
C Stars
@WaterGirl: I’ve been thinking on that a lot these days…
We live in an urban place and have a tiny backyard. Though there are some open/green spaces around us. I’ve been thinking a cat. But a dog could roughhouse with him.
My main hesitance has been this fantasy that things will get “back to normal” in a year or so and we’ll want to travel as a family and it would be hard to have a dog in that situation. But I’m starting to revise my expectations for “back to normal.”
WaterGirl
@C Stars: Yeah, I was thinking of the roughhousing, too, and the companionship. Love my cats, but companionship is lots more likely with a dog.
I agree about normal. I think we have 2 years ahead, at least, before even the possibility of anything like we had before. I’m not sure we’ll ever get back to what we all had and took for granted.
grandmaBear
I feel like I live in a different universe from most of the people on this blog these days, living here in exurban Ohio. I live with son and family, including two elementary-age kids. The 3 of us adults managed with the kids until school finished. Their summer day care programs were all cancelled, but they’ve just started a Y program 3 days a week for families of essential workers (because of Dr DIL) – in a ‘bubble’ group, I guess, but I don’t really trust that given that DIL tells me maybe 30% are wearing masks in the outside world when she goes to a store. On the other hand, our neighbors, with kids the same ages and who have been playing regularly with ours are in Florida on vacation for 3 weeks (!), and other neighbors have had a couple of pool parties, so keeping them at home is not safe if they’re seeing these neighbors. Yes, Ohio’s numbers have been pretty low, and out here in the exurbs even lower, but I still haven’t been off the property since March 13th (except to drive my car a bit to recharge the battery last weekend , without getting out of the car). I’m still getting delivery from a CSA (more like a Sprouts or Fresh Thyme) and Target (better and cheaper than Amazon at least here) for what we can’t get through the CSA. But it often seems pointless when I’m living with multiple vectors. I’m old enough for age alone to be an issue, but otherwise am in pretty good shape health-wise. I don’t imagine I’m immune by any means. I’ve just become a little fatalistic about it. I think DeWine is going to open schools completely in August unless there’s really too many cases/deaths to hide.
I just got a questionnaire from the University I’ve been taking classes at, asking about my level of comfort in coming back. I’m worried all the 18-22yr olds will be fine with it and it’ll open up too. Their zoom-equivalent was REALLY not as good as the classroom experience for my Chinese class, but I remember one member of the class who went to China for a short trip in late January (not Wuhan), came back and into class the next day despite knowing China was already shutting everything down at the time. They’re immortal and who cares about the olds anyway. If the University starts with in-person classes I think I will go with a private tutor instead and do it via zoom. At least that’s something I have control over.
Genine
Where I work (Bay Area, CA) is having summer camp for ages 3.5 to 8th Grade. Camps can legally operate in San Francisco starting June 15th.
Lyrebird
Best wishes… my employer just sent out those questionnaires to students. Before term was over, the suburban and rural students were all, “whatever, who cares?” and the ones from big cities were stressed as all get out, relatives going to the hospital, etc. I know Zoom is not the same as in person, but I feel like we’re going to be required to go back without testing and it’s mostly to keep the school financially afloat. I need my job, and I know I have it better than so many other stressed workers, but this does not seem like the right way to open up.
Chbnna
@Rusty: this right here seems like a very sensible approach, each person’s situation is different, we have to weight the risks vs. the benefits. I myself am in a position where i can keep my son home, would he enjoy being around other kids, yes of course, but i live in a multigenerational household (grandparents are in the same building) so it may not be worth the risk for me, for my family. Especially since the grandparents help look after him during the day while I’m working from home. I read an article that talked about this issue and how to make such decisions. Here’s the link: https://slate.com/technology/2020/05/coronavirus-family-choices-grandparents-day-care-summer-camp.html hopefully this helps.
Jado
We decided against it. Don’t get me wrong, the camp presented their case very well, they will be limiting the attendance to 50% of last year, they will have social distancing guidelines for the kids, they will have temperature check every day prior to entry, etc.
But there is no general testing and tracing program active in our state, except for suspected cases. Which is great ONCE YOU HAVE SYMPTOMS. And once you have symptoms, how long until you are in the hospital? I understand all these processes help mitigate transmission, but how are you supposed to avoid the asymptomatic carriers without generalized testing?