Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

The National Guard is not Batman.

America is going up in flames. The NYTimes fawns over MAGA celebrities. No longer a real newspaper.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

“But what about the lurkers?”

Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.

I don’t recall signing up for living in a dystopian sci-fi novel.

Celebrate the fucking wins.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

If rights aren’t universal, they are privilege, not rights.

“They all knew.”

Welcome to day five of every-bit-as-bad-as-you-thought-it-would-be.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

This country desperately needs a functioning fourth estate.

I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.

This chaos was totally avoidable.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

We can show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / ‘Independence Day’ Open Thread: Working Towards Keeping the Founders’ Promises

‘Independence Day’ Open Thread: Working Towards Keeping the Founders’ Promises

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In the early summer of 1776, Thomas Jefferson worked away in the second floor parlor of a boardinghouse in downtown Philadelphia. Wielding language he would call “plain and firm,” he set down the words that still inspire those seeking justice and liberation, “All men are created equal.”

But Jefferson, among history’s most studied men, didn’t travel from Virginia to Philadelphia alone. He brought with him an enslaved teen named Robert Hemings, whose life and contributions to history — like so many of his status — are stories of what we don’t know…

The eldest of six children, Robert Hemings was born in 1762 into bondage, contradiction and entanglement. His father was the slave owner John Wayles, Thomas Jefferson’s future father-in-law; his mother was a slave, Elizabeth Hemings. Sally Hemings, the enslaved woman with whom Jefferson fathered several children, was Robert Hemings’ sister, and Jefferson’s future wife, Martha Wayles, was his half-sister. Robert Hemings himself would become both Jefferson’s in-law and his property.

The Hemings siblings were brought to Monticello, Jefferson’s home in Virginia, not long after the 1773 death of Wayles. Within the plantation hierarchy, Robert Hemings held a high position and was described once by a friend of Jefferson’s as having “behaved exceeding well.” He was just 12 when Jefferson chose him to replace the 31-year-old Jupiter Evans as his personal attendant. He was dressed more formally than other slaves, was permitted to read and write, travel on his own and to learn a craft, as a barber…

Jefferson kept Hemings close to him until 1784, when, for reasons undetermined, he decided to leave Hemings back in Virginia while he moved to Paris on a diplomatic mission. Hemings, meanwhile, had met a slave named Dolly from another Virginia plantation, and, wishing to marry her, sought emancipation in 1794. “Bob’s business has been hastened into such a situation as to make it difficult for me to reject it,” Jefferson wrote to his son-in-law, Thomas Mann Rudolph.

Jefferson is believed to have freed around 10 slaves in his lifetime, Stanton says, and Hemings was the first, although Jefferson’s role was indirect. He allowed a French emigre in Richmond, Dr. George Frederick Stras, to advance him the purchase price for Heming’s freedom, around $200. Hemings, in turn, would work for Stras and pay off the debt. A letter from Jefferson’s daughter, Martha J. Randolph, suggests Hemings knew well that Jefferson was surprised and unhappy that he wished to leave…

By 1799, Hemings had apparently won his freedom and his name turns up on Virginia tax rolls. Documents indicate he managed a livery or hauling business, lived with his family on a half-acre lot in Richmond and named Jefferson’s son-in-law the executor of his will, which bequeathed all of his holdings to his wife and children…

Reader Interactions

196Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    I just finished watching Hamilton. Pretty good, but I think they took some historical licenses. I’m pretty sure the Founders didn’t sing that much.

    ETA: Looking forward to the sequel.

  4. 4.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @Baud: Is the sequel the one where they include women? (Look around, look around…)

  12. 12.

    Jeffro

    Hope that BLM convention makes some noise about how they’re just like ALEC, without the lobbying/bribery oh and also not evil.

  13. 13.

    Ruckus

    Our nation was founded on a simple idea: We’re all created equal. We’ve never lived up to it — but we’ve never stopped trying. This Independence Day, let’s not just celebrate those words, let’s commit to finally fulfill them.

    Compare and contrast to the current office blockade, the man running to replace him. We’ve done a lot worse, in my lifetime.

  14. 14.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: My idiot TCNJ dad still refuses to listen to HAMILTON…apparently the thought of being exposed to a rap song or two is just a bridge too far.

    Talk about ‘cancel culture’ LOLOL

  15. 15.

    Mary G

    I’m an immigrant who loves America and its promise more than I can describe. And I join every patriot who wants to make our country more just and fair and equal. And its promise available to all. Happy 4th. ?— Preet Bharara (@PreetBharara) July 4, 2020

  16. 16.

    James E Powell

    So many people here spoke well of it that I have to watch Hamilton. I want to wait till I can schedule an uninterrupted time.

  18. 18.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Ruckus: I couldn’t agree more.  Joe might have been in the bottom third of my list from the big field, but I am very impressed with how he frames things.

    ”We’ve never lived up to it”…honest assessment.

    ”Let’s commit to finally fulfill them”…aspirational challenge.

    I can forgive the split infinitive.

  20. 20.

    A Ghost to Most

    @Jeffro: To be fair, he could be like me, and detest all musicals. But likely, he is just a racist asshole.

  23. 23.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    I just finished watching Hamilton. Pretty good, but I think they took some historical licenses. I’m pretty sure the Founders didn’t sing that much.

    Wait. You mean that 1776 was not actual found-footage of the Founders creating the Declaration of Independence?

  25. 25.

    Jeffro

    @A Ghost to Most: He has liked a few musicals in the past.  His “entertainment”, such as it is these days, mostly consists of flipping back and forth between Fox, CNBC, and occasionally (just to see what the libs are lying about) CNN.

    Not too many books being read, not a lot of music new or old being listened to…it’s just pathetic.

  27. 27.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud:

    Much as I love it, I don’t see how I could sit through the whole thing in the theater. We watched Act 1 last night, Act 2 will be tonight.

  28. 28.

    Geminid

    Annette Gordon-Reed wrote a very good history of the Hemings family,  The Hemings of Monticello (2008). It’s long (800 pages), but a good read. It won a Pulitzer Prize for History.                 Gordon-Reed grew up in the small Texas town of Livingston. Now she teaches history at Harvard.

  30. 30.

    zhena gogolia

    @Jeffro:

    Soon after the election, I made some mention of loving Hamilton while my dentist was doing a root canal. He said he could never listen to Hamilton because they were disrespectful to the Vice President, “and he’s a dignitary.” This was in reference to the very respectful speech that Brandon Victor Dixon made to Pence when he did his cynical visit to the show right after the election.

  33. 33.

    brantl

    This is off-topic, but just so everyone gets this from the defunct thread. I am not a Nazi apologist. I don’t know if DJT is a Nazi, he is definitely a racist, and a white supremacist. I was only saying that concrete proof is much better that speculative proof, or conjectural proof. Period. I was saying that when making the argument, stick to solid, easy to substantiate PROOF.

  36. 36.

    Another Scott

    “A Capitol Fourth” is on PBS now.  It opened with “Put a little love in your heart” and was well done.  The teasers showed all kinds of choral groups shoulder to shoulder.  :-(  It is showing clips of performances from all over the country.  I hope the shoulder-to-shoulder ones were from the Before Times…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  38. 38.

    Baud

    @brantl:

    What is your litmus test for Nazis? I’m confident Trump isn’t actually a member of the National Socialist  German Workers Party.

  40. 40.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    I’m an old and have kind of mostly avoided hip-hop, so I expected to be struggling a little with it. But what I realized is that my problem with hip-hop, or at least the songs in Hamilton, is not the music so much but the number of words. There are five hundred thoughts going by in every verse, it’s a lot more intellectually challenging than your standard musical theater song, and it’s going by at a thousand miles an hour. Blink for a millisecond and you’ve missed 10 key plot points.

    We’ve seen maybe 1/3 of it so far, and had to keep pausing to say, “wait, what did we just learn?” and “who was that person?” and Googling various things, like who are Hamilton’s drinking buddies. I don’t know how you can absorb this show live.

    Or maybe I’m just a moron and a cretin and most people can absorb it just fine.

  41. 41.

    Peale

    @Baud: Can’t really say one way or the other about the singing and dancing. We weren’t really there in the room in real time, so we’ll never know.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    @namekarB

    Used to be a sign prominently displayed behind the bar in an occasionally frequented watering hole in the Poconos:

    YCHJCYAQFTJ
    25¢
    .

    If one inquired about it, the bartender would ask for the coin to be paid first and then explain it stood for:

    You Curiosity Has Just Cost You A Quarter For The Jukebox.

  43. 43.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    So, does anybody know what happened with this?

    Dems Working With Trumpsters to Re-Up the Patriot Act

    The House leaders are still negotiating. But they’re largely taking intrusive post-9/11 surveillance for granted.
    No one yet knows what deal, if any, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy will strike on surveillance before three Patriot Act provisions expire on Sunday. Negotiations, as of Tuesday afternoon, remain as unsettled as they are frantic.

    But according to four sources familiar with the talks, reforming the Patriot Act isn’t driving the talks. All sides, in fact, are ready to bring back the most controversial surveillance law of the George W. Bush era. The Democratic leadership backing the Patriot Act is trying to cut a deal with Republicans who want to avenge Carter Page, the ex-Trump campaign adviser whom the FBI put under surveillance.

    At immediate issue are three vanishing aspects of the surveillance state erected after 9/11. Section 215, known as the “business records” provision, lets the FBI compel companies to warrantlessly provide an expansive array of customer data. The “roving wiretap” provision lets the FBI follow suspects across their various phones. And the “lone wolf” provision lets the FBI spy on terror suspects who have no connection to banned foreign terrorist organizations—but the FBI has never used it.

    But the immediate issue isn’t the actual issue. In December, the Justice Department inspector general found that the FBI withheld relevant information from the surveillance panel known as the FISA Court when seeking to maintain its wiretaps on Page. House Republicans, backed by President Donald Trump, have made that into the centerpiece of the surveillance misconduct they want to fix—however much critics of overbroad post-9/11 surveillance would prefer it be about restricting the government’s ability to spy on millions of Americans not connected to Trump.

    The expiring Patriot Act provisions are leverage for Republicans in the discussions—since the House Democratic leadership has consistently backed them, to great progressive dismay. They simply “have nothing to do with the Carter Page saga,” said Rep. Mike Quigley, an Illinois Democrat on the intelligence committee.

    The aspects of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, that permitted surveillance on Page concern procedures for targeting individual American citizens, not providing law enforcement with large amounts of data. In other words, some individual targets of U.S. surveillance may get some additional protections—something no civil libertarian considers trivial. But most people caught in the security state’s electronic dragnets are going to be out of luck.

  44. 44.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Achrachno: I’m a bit behind on fashionable acronyms.

    It’s not “fashionable” – no one ever uses it except him, & he’s only defined it once on this blog, & only because I hassled him until he finally did. And it’s such a compelling idea// that I’ve completely forgotten what he means by it.

  45. 45.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @zhena gogolia:

    I’d believe it is. Hamilton is a modern, multi-racial reinterpretation of history. Racists (and bootlickers like your dentist) aren’t going to like it

  52. 52.

    Sab

    Husband wants to open up the windows now. 85 degrees, fireworks everywhere, and two dogs and five cats in a panic. Good job protecting the homefront, Jerk.

  53. 53.

    WaterGirl

    When Hamilton first came out, I remember someone, likely Mnem, saying it’s a good idea to listen to the soundtrack before watching Hamilton.  Maybe that would help.

    Yesterday I watched the Hamilton number that LMM performed at the White House, and it’s true – you have to pay attention every second in order to take in what they are saying.  We have all gotten lazy (we all = me)  – only half listening to things and doing something else, or thinking about other things while we’re listening.

    That’s a terrible habit, and it certainly won’t work with Hamilton!

  54. 54.

    CaseyL

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Watching at home on the computer allowed me to take liberties I wouldn’t dream of in a theatre; i.e. pausing the stream, opening another tab, and looking up something I didn’t quite get.

    I also paused the stream and rewound, to see if I could catch dialog/lyrics I missed.

  56. 56.

    A Ghost to Most

    A squad of armed black men marched through Stone Mtn today. They call themselves the NFAC (Not Fucking Around Coalition). Well done!

  57. 57.

    Peale

    @Sab: Sounds like you’re under siege. He’ll need to open the window if he’s going to launch the counter-defense.

  60. 60.

    oldgold

    Trump tonight: “Together we will fight for the American dream, and we will defend, protect, and preserve American way of life, which began in 1492 when Columbus discovered America.”

    Lordy! Where to start.

  61. 61.

    WaterGirl

    @dmsilev: Exactly as I thought!

    …now fear losing power and forever associating their party with his racial animus.

    They aren’t upset with WHAT he’s saying.  They fear LOSING POWER.  I don’t think there is a single person left who still supports Trump that has a soul.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I haven’t seen Hamilton, but SuperLeftyTwitter has its collective knickers in a twist about how it’s some kind of propaganda for the Obama cult. So I’m glad they’re angry that so many people seem to enjoy it.

  65. 65.

    Suzanne

    @Jeffro: 

    Talk about ‘cancel culture’ LOLOL

    I hate their bitching about cancel culture so much. Like I irrationally hate it. They “cancel” people and companies all the time, it just doesn’t hurt our feelings because no one cares.

  68. 68.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @oldgold: he also gave history of the VietnaDesertStorm War.

    I saw a trump campaign ad about Joe Biden’s cognitive decline last week. On MSNBC.

    ETA:

    S.V. Dáte @svdate
    At some point, is the WH going to explain why the president speaks in a slurred speech, has trouble reading and pronouncing pretty basic words of his mother tongue, has difficulty drinking from a water glass … or what that odd, unplanned trip to Walter Reed was all about?

  69. 69.

    Suzanne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: They hate it because high-quality art isn’t being created for/about their cultural milieu. Similar to how Nike ran that ad with Kaepernick and they got all butthurt because a large company with cultural cachet basically said “Right wingers, you’re gross, and we don’t want your money”.

  70. 70.

    Jeffro

    @Suzanne: also, I think they know they are outnumbered in many ways and they are terrified for people to figure out that they can definitely cause change with their pocketbooks

    they are certainly terrified of collective action, which is why they do everything they can to pretend it doesn’t exist

  71. 71.

    dmsilev

    @WaterGirl: Yep. It’s a long article, and you’ll search in vain in it for Republicans who denounce Trump’s racism because, you know, racism is bad.

    Also, notice how the media is no longer saying things like “Trump’s racially-charged rhetoric” and similar. They’re just flat-out saying “Trump’s a racist”. Only took several years of blatant behavior, but I guess progress?

  76. 76.

    Kent

    The woke 17 year olds take on the 4th:

    “Let it be known that on this day 244 years ago a bunch of rich old white men got tired of paying their taxes”

    She’s not all wrong.

  77. 77.

    Jeffro

    @Suzanne: that’s a great point – they have kid rock, Ted Nugent, Dean Cain, and Scott Baio.  ye gods… That’s no way to appeal to the yoots!!

  79. 79.

    Peale

    @dmsilev: Remember “moderate” presidential hopeful John Kaisich? If I recall in his presidential ghost written biography he went on a few pages with an anecdote about listening to his first rap CD in his car and finding it so foul that he threw it out the window and proudly proclaimed that he’d never listened to any of it again. Not saying he had to treat music he didn’t like like some kind of sacred idol, or be forced to try to learn to develop a taste for something that’s beyond him, but just kind of saying the race pandering hasn’t just been a problem for the ostentatious trump types. As if Kaisich spent his time thinking about maybe reaching out to try to win over African American voters in his cities. Push comes to shove, the “cuckervatives” in 2016 gladly and willingly went along with this. So next week when Trump promises to rid the country of these vile foreigners, liberals, gays, and blacks – which he was on the verge of doing in his speech tonight – I doubt they’ll do much pushing back. Its bred in them not to ever reach out and ask for help. Oh, they would never light the match to burn down the neighborhood, but they certainly would finance the PAC who’d divy up the money to buy the matches and certainly would agree to pool their money in a PE deal for an LBO to consolidate the match industry.

  80. 80.

    Suzanne

    @Jeffro: Yes. When they cancel things, it’s a principled decision to spend their money in places that support their dumb values. When we cancel things, we’re the totalitarian mob.

    I have said before and I still believe that half of why they hated Obama so much is because he is cool as hell. Meanwhile, the entire GOP is super-thirsty for approval and attention and popularity and their fan base is, like, the grossest part of the country that no one with taste or influence wants to be associated with.

  82. 82.

    Baud

    @Kent:

    Let it be known that on this day 244 years ago a bunch of rich old white men got tired of paying their taxes

    If they lived today, they could have just tweeted about it and saved themselves some misery.

  83. 83.

    Sab

    @Peale: We are under seige, from firecrackers and fireworks. The scared critters are inside and most of them are his special little beasties. Too bad. Toughen up, lambchops.

    Grandchildren stopped by and I got within 5 feet of several of them. He was frantic. He said ” You only stopped the little one.” Well yes. She is six and autistic, and wanted to hug me. The others stopped at 5 feet (not 6, and we were all outside, and no one was talking, much less singing.) That was NOT OK.

    But now he wants all the windows open. It’s hot. I could say there are pedestrians near the house, which there are,  but I am better than that

    I will not be cooking dinner tonight. He can eat the damned pie by himself (I had a piece. It was good.)

    Grrr. grrr. First world problems.

  84. 84.

    gwangung

    @zhena gogolia:

    You should have told your dentist to look up, The Noble Call, a traditional Irish custom.

    A Noble Call occurs after the show – an actor in the show, or an invited guest, is invited to address the crowd on matters of the day.

    It is considered, in Irish storytelling and theater, that everyone has a song to sing or a tale to tell in a unique way, and it is one’s duty to share it, by the sharing of it – using it to ‘call’ to others there, that it is Noble.

    This is a tradition that is ingrained in the Irish storytelling tradition.

  85. 85.

    The Lodger

    @Suzanne: Someone will create an opera about the Trump White House once we figure out how the story ends. (The Ivanka/Melania duet is probably on its 14th or 15th draft by now.)

  86. 86.

    Suzanne

    @Jeffro:

    they have kid rock, Ted Nugent, Dean Cain, and Scott Baio.  ye gods… That’s no way to appeal to the yoots!! 

    They know they are gross. Their aesthetic is cheap and trashy. Like Kaylee McNeenerNeener…. the kind of woman that frat dude bros from universities in Missouri find attractive.

  88. 88.

    Kay

    Ana Cabrera
    @AnaCabrera
    NEW: Five Americans who flew by private jet to the Mediterranean island of Sardinia were refused entry to Italy on Wednesday due to new EU travel restrictions on countries with high #coronavirus infection rates, local police tell CNN.

    They’re bailing on us, you guys.

  89. 89.

    PsiFighter37

    Heading to Portland, Maine for a last-minute weeklong remote work/R&R trip. I love that town, and I was somewhat surprised that Maine decided to change the rules last minute, before July 4th, to let people from NY, NJ and CT come (why RI and MA are still restricted is puzzling to me). Nonetheless, we grabbed a very nice AirBnb right in the heart of downtown – looking forward to morning strolls, grabbing lobster rolls to go for working lunches, and enjoying a nice change of scenery. NH was pleasant enough, but not close enough to the water/coast. Can’t wait / fingers crossed that it is a slow work week :)

  90. 90.

    Jeffro

    @Suzanne:  Yup. Super cool and competent as hell. CAN’T HAVE THAT!

    What has been truly amazing and surprising in recent years, as my kids have gone through their teens, is just how progressive and socially aware and activist and pragmatic they and their generation are. They’re the opposite of my “Reagan baby” generation and thank god. Go “Obama babies!”

  92. 92.

    Jeffro

    @PsiFighter37: That’s awesome!  I have fantasies of going to Maine, seeing Acadia NP and eating nothing but lobster rolls for a few days.

    Might have to move that up on the schedule for this fall ;)

  93. 93.

    Sab

    @Peale: John Kasich just wanted to cut taxes to appease his donors. He tried to stomp public unions and got his head handed to him on a platter. But tax cuts was his entire thing otherwise. Everyone is yelling about DeWine backing down, but at least he got some serious standards in place. With Kasich we would be Arizona now.

  94. 94.

    CaseyL

    I may have told this story, but if so it was years ago; and this being Independence Day and all:

    I lived in Philadelphia until age 12, and went to public school.  Back then, they still taught things like Civics and American History.  Almost every year, we went on a field trip to Philly’s Greatest Independence Day Hits:  Carpenter’s Hall, Independence Hall, Betsy Ross’ House, the Liberty Bell, etc. etc.  My being a kid, and the fact that we went every year, meant that the sites had no impact on me emotionally.  I didn’t grasp their importance, except in a “this will be on the test!” sense.

    Fast forward about 45 years.  I’ve been living on the West Coast for decades, and my aunt invites me to come visit her in Philadelphia.  We’ll hit the Bethlehem Music Festival, head out to Ocean City for a few days, have fun.  Sounds great, so I go.

    I have the days to myself, as my Aunt is still teaching, and Philly has a very decent public transit system, so I go downtown – to what Philadelphians call “Center City.”  And I wind up re-visiting the historic sites for the first time in a very VERY long time, and hearing the tour guides’ patter.

    The revolutionaries in Philly lived among and amidst British spies.  They plotted right under said spies’ noses.  Social societies, benevolent societies, even municipal planning meetings – all were used to plan strategies, collect and spread information, all the activities needed to mount a rebellion.  The British weren’t stupid, and they would spring sudden arrests and searches, looking for any incriminating documents or information.  The mere possession of a building blueprint that noted secret tunnels or storage rooms could lead to an arrest for treason.  Betsy Ross sewing anything that looked like a non-approved banner could get her arrested for treason.  Just meeting with certain people in the privacy of your home could get you arrested for treason (those Bill of Rights amendments regarding search and seizure were passed for a reason).

    It’s hard to describe the impact the information had on me, hearing it as an adult.  I think we tend to think of the Revolutionary War as a done deal because, after all, “we” won and it was a long time ago.

    But suddenly I was able to perceive it, a little bit, from the revolutionaries’ point of view.  For them, it was anything but a done deal.  Many of them had family members who were Loyalist Tories: imagine living with someone who could and maybe would turn you in for treason if they happened to find a certain kind of document in your room, or overheard a conversation you were having with a friend/co-conspirator.  Imagine walking down the street to a meeting, with plans hidden in a roll of blueprints, or a medical textbook, and watching British spies watching you, wondering if they’d grab you and search you.  All for an enterprise that might not happen, might not succeed, might not last.

    I had a brief bit of a visceral understanding of what it meant to be plotting rebellion against the British.  It was… sobering.

  96. 96.

    PsiFighter37

    @Jeffro: Unpopular opinion perhaps – I wasn’t a huge fan of Bar Harbor / Acadia when I went up there. Part of it was that we were looking for more strenuous hiking when we went. The other was that, TBH, the seafood ain’t anywhere as good as it is down closer to Portland area. It also feels very small – after a long weekend, I didn’t feel like we had much else to explore.

    We also booked a 2-week trip, which will be purely vacation, before Labor Day (as a substitute for Italy and Spain…oh well). I am hoping things hold steady as they are, but I do see Maine (and even NY’s numbers, although not NYC) starting to tick back up. Kinda worrisome if the part of the country that’s been doing the best after getting hit the hardest starts going the wrong way…

  98. 98.

    Suzanne

    @Jeffro: There’s something really powerful about being a coveted demographic that makes people feel good. This is why they sniff about colleges being bad, and gripe about cities, and countless other markers of status and taste. The people who have influence, whose money and association are wanted…. are not them.

  99. 99.

    zhena gogolia

    @debbie: 
    It was his nurse who asked me what I’d been doing, and I didn’t think that commenting on my recent musical enthusiasms was controversial! I forgot the right-wing way of thinking for a moment.

  100. 100.

    Kent

    @James E Powell: So many people here spoke well of it that I have to watch Hamilton. I want to wait till I can schedule an uninterrupted time

    I set up an outdoor theatre in the garden last night so the woke 17 year old could have a safe watch party with a couple friends.  To my chagrin I will admit I hadn’t previously realized it was an all black cast.  I had even scraped up tickets for her and her friends for her birthday when the musical came to Portland in 2017 and suffered a year of hearing the kids sing the soundtrack 24/7 in the car.

    I guess I’m just not really a big musical person but I really liked how austere the production was.  Very simple set and costumes.  It is all the music and story not the special effects.

  102. 102.

    zhena gogolia

    @Kent:

    You didn’t miss the crashing chandelier and Erik rowing Christine through the sewer while singing “Point of No Return”?

  104. 104.

    Baud

    @Kent:

    and suffered a year of hearing the kids sing the soundtrack 24/7 in the car.

    You should really let them into the house every once in a while to shower.

  106. 106.

    lamh36

    @Baud: I saw the travelling company show and loved it.  So I wasn’t gonna watch the film but I really had to see the original cast and I’m glad I did.

    For my money having now seen the original cast and comparing it to the traveling cast, Daveed Diggs steals the show. Which says a lot in a cast with ALOT of standouts. His Thomas Jefferson was fabulous!

    I can’t listen to Hamilton’s “One Last Time” without hearing the version that included PBO reading the Washington parts.

    Even when I saw the Hamilton travel company, I loved King George’s song. It’s one of the song that got stuck in my head almost instantly.  I dare anyone to not have that damn “Da da da dat da dat da da da da ya da
    Da da dat dat da ya da” chorus in their damn heads after hearing it…LOL

    But HD filming did Jonathan Goff SOOOOO wrong. But apparently, he’s known being ah…excessively “moist” when he sings…ew

  107. 107.

    zzyzx

    I’m envious of those who love Hamilton and wish I could hear what they do. It was OK enough, I guess for me, but I eventually turned it off 40 minutes in last night and did something else. I might try to give it another shot because so many people I trust love it, that it might eventually click.

    On the other hand, I probably would have been fighting for tickets to see that and who needs that kind of stress in my life :)

  109. 109.

    Kent

    @Baud: heh yeah.  They sing in the shower too.

    As a policy I try not to get too involved in their musical and pop culture tastes for fear of ruining it for them.   Nothing more “lame” than a dad who knows all their music and shows.   I don’t want to inadvertently cause their favorite stuff to jump the shark.

  110. 110.

    lamh36

    @A Ghost to Most: My sister is not theatrical musically-inclined.  So when we saw the travelling show and afterwards she said she loved it…that told me the show really was something special.

    Besides which the musical also has as many “traditional” songs as rap songs?

  111. 111.

    Baud

    @lamh36: I thought the moistness was intentional since he was playing a mad king.  I liked him and the guy who played Burr.

  112. 112.

    zhena gogolia

    @lamh36:

    I thought he was intentionally foaming at the mouth to convey King George’s madness

    Or what Baud said.

  115. 115.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @lamh36: But HD filming did Jonathan Goff SOOOOO wrong. But apparently, he’s known being ah…excessively “moist” when he sings…ew

    DROPLETS!

  116. 116.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I can’t believe the speech got the attention and not the fact that the Trump Administration is focused on installing a “statue garden” in the middle of a pandemic and accompanying economic collapse.

    This was their re-elect policy rollout. The statue garden. They wrote rules of the statue gardens- 50 people worked on this. It’s amazing how low the bar is, just in terms of work. It doesn’t have to be high quality or important work- there’s just none at all.

  117. 117.

    lamh36

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: closed captions is actually a godsend for some people.  But I know folks find it hard to watch and read, but it’s never been a problem for me.

    And I agree the fast pace of the rap when I saw the travelling company did have me saying, “wait what did he say” a lot and wanting to rewind…LOL.

    But I mostly knew who everyone was because I tend to pre-read source material whenever I see shows like this.

  120. 120.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “cancel culture” is Job One. Happily, “battling cancel culture” doesn’t involve doing anything real or measurable other than whining about liberals and writing op eds and speeches about it, so “battling” it won’t require any work and “beating” it isn’t measurable. Covid tests and unemployment we can measure. “Cancel culture” we cannot. Talk about pick your battles.

  121. 121.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    I support the statue garden. I think it’s important to have a place where liberal parents can bring their children to teach them how to identify which statues should be torn down and which should not be.

  124. 124.

    aliasofwestgate

    I love Hamilton because it’s awesome. Musically? Remember the history of rap itself, r&b, and soul. All of it grew on the toil of slavery, and rap itself was about revolution when it began in the late 70s (possibly 60s, I’ have to look up the history).  Between that and the POC majority cast, that’s why it was such a full on subverting of the Broadway standard. The fact that it started off broadway, and then conquered it aftewards is an amazing thing.

     

    That said, i love the music because i’m in the same generation LMM is. I get all the musical references he tossed in there, with the various styles  as shorthand. Partly because i’m a vocalist and you understand things whether you like the genre or not as a trained musician. The rest is as i said, I’m the same later Gen X (Xennial) group that LMM is. Using ‘musical shorthand’ is not unusual. But doing it this way? THAT was unusual for Broadway. So yeah. I have a love for Hamilton, probably not to the lengths some others do. But egads, i will stop to sing along with Leslie Odom Jr’s ‘Wait for It’ and anything Daveed Digs is singing you can tell how much fun he had with it.  The musical is full of bangers, as they call them now. But mostly they are just incredibly well put together to make a statement on several levels. Plus a lot of fun to listen to!

  125. 125.

    lamh36

    Dean Cain who?

    If not for the stink of Bryan Singer, Brandon Routh was the closest to the spirit of Chiristopher Reeves (the best film Superman, IMHO) as Superman, IMHO

    Dean Cain who?

    @BrandonJRouth

    I don’t always play a superhero, but when I do… I care about those around me & if there was the slightest chance I could spread a highly contagious deadly virus to my loved ones/strangers without my awareness, I’d wear a mask. Protecting fellow citizens honors the #AmericanWay.
    twitter.com/BrandonJRouth/status/1279565405611155456

  126. 126.

    Kent

    @Baud: that might of worked pre Trump.  Today they will threaten to ship me to glue factory instead of retirement home if I try that.

  127. 127.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    I can’t believe the speech got the attention and not the fact that the Trump Administration is focused on installing a “statue garden” in the middle of a pandemic and accompanying economic collapse.

    Anyone who has seen the Doctor Who episode “Blink” can tell you that statue gardens never turn out well.

  128. 128.

    Kay

    Imagine Donald Trump’s library. A library full of lies. No one ethical can work there. You’d have to run screaming from the room if you’re a real librarian. “You JUST printed this document! This isn’t a real paper. And what are these numbers? NONE of this happened”.

  130. 130.

    HumboldtBlue

    @aliasofwestgate:

    Between that and the POC majority cast, that’s why it was such a full on subverting of the Broadway standard. The fact that it started off broadway, and then conquered it aftewards is an amazing thing.

    Nice summary.

    I believe Netflix has a series on the birth and growth of Hip Hop and rap from the early 70s Bronx and the genre’s growth is mirrored by that of the reggae and ska movement in England at the same time.

    Very similar social and economic forces at play, young black and brown men and women without access to mainstream musical equipment and outlets created their own sounds.

    One thing both shared as a staple of the musical genre — whoever brought the biggest baddest sound system was the one who ran the tables and owned the street (or the literal street light, the original DJs gathered on the sidewalk and hacked electricity from the city light poles).

    I’m not a fan of 2nd Amendment marches but this one works for me today.

  134. 134.

    Patricia Kayden

    Yay!!

    We must now realize the promise of America by trusting God, unifying our vision and building our future. I am running for president of the United States ??! #2020VISION— ye (@kanyewest) July 5, 2020

  135. 135.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    Five Americans who flew by private jet to the Mediterranean island of Sardinia were refused entry to Italy on Wednesday due to new EU travel restrictions on countries with high #coronavirus infection rates, local police tell CNN.

    Interesting. These people clearly believed that the recent travel restrictions were only for little people.

    During the early stages of the pandemic, there were a couple of interesting stories about a sudden increase in jets taking off from private airports for “safer” destinations.

  138. 138.

    Anne Laurie

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Or maybe I’m just a moron and a cretin and most people can absorb it just fine.

    I get the impression that many of the most dedicated ‘Hamilfans’ have listened to the cast album A LOT before watching the show itself; they’ve done their ‘homework’ in advance.

    Also, many twitter commentors seeing it for the first time seem to be doing it over two nights (or more), as though it were a mini-series.  Seems like, yes, there is MUCH to absorb!

  139. 139.

    JMG

    @Jeffro: That’s so silly. There’s far more conventional Broadway musical music in Hamilton than straight rap. The rap is what would’ve been dialogue in say, South Pacific.

  141. 141.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    Let America Be America Again
    By Langston Hughes

    Let America be America again.
    Let it be the dream it used to be.
    Let it be the pioneer on the plain
    Seeking a home where he himself is free.

    (America never was America to me.)

    Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed—
    Let it be that great strong land of love
    Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
    That any man be crushed by one above.

    (It never was America to me.)

    O, let my land be a land where Liberty
    Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
    But opportunity is real, and life is free,
    Equality is in the air we breathe.

    (There’s never been equality for me,
    Nor freedom in this “homeland of the free.”)

    Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
    And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

    I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
    I am the Negro bearing slavery’s scars.
    I am the red man driven from the land,
    I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek—
    And finding only the same old stupid plan
    Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

    I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
    Tangled in that ancient endless chain
    Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
    Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
    Of work the men! Of take the pay!
    Of owning everything for one’s own greed!

    I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
    I am the worker sold to the machine.
    I am the Negro, servant to you all.
    I am the people, humble, hungry, mean—
    Hungry yet today despite the dream.
    Beaten yet today—O, Pioneers!
    I am the man who never got ahead,
    The poorest worker bartered through the years.

    Yet I’m the one who dreamt our basic dream
    In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
    Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
    That even yet its mighty daring sings
    In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
    That’s made America the land it has become.
    O, I’m the man who sailed those early seas
    In search of what I meant to be my home—
    For I’m the one who left dark Ireland’s shore,
    And Poland’s plain, and England’s grassy lea,
    And torn from Black Africa’s strand I came
    To build a “homeland of the free.”

    The free?

    Who said the free? Not me?
    Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
    The millions shot down when we strike?
    The millions who have nothing for our pay?
    For all the dreams we’ve dreamed
    And all the songs we’ve sung
    And all the hopes we’ve held
    And all the flags we’ve hung,
    The millions who have nothing for our pay—
    Except the dream that’s almost dead today.

    O, let America be America again—
    The land that never has been yet—
    And yet must be—the land where every man is free.
    The land that’s mine—the poor man’s, Indian’s, Negro’s, ME—
    Who made America,
    Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
    Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
    Must bring back our mighty dream again.

    Sure, call me any ugly name you choose—
    The steel of freedom does not stain.
    From those who live like leeches on the people’s lives,
    We must take back our land again,
    America!

    O, yes,
    I say it plain,
    America never was America to me,
    And yet I swear this oath—
    America will be!

    Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
    The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
    We, the people, must redeem
    The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
    The mountains and the endless plain—
    All, all the stretch of these great green states—
    And make America again!

    h/t poets.org/poem/let-america-be-america-again

  142. 142.

    JMG

    @Kay: One of my son’s friends said before Trump’s inauguration that his Presidential library “would have the loosest slots in town.” Still sounds right.

  143. 143.

    Kay

    @Brachiator:

    My son and his wife live in Denmark and they’re vacationing this week, in a different part of Denmark. They thought they’d run into problems with US passports. He says the guidance isn’t clear and although they have Danish work visas and spent the entire pandemic within Denmark he thinks they’re in the US category.

  145. 145.

    JoyceH

    Cute exchange on Twitter. Joe Biden tweeted, “I’ll read my daily briefings.” Republicans For Biden tweeted back, “You had us at ‘I’ll read’.”

  147. 147.

    dmsilev

    @Kay: The statue garden proposal, which I’m guessing will never come to fruition, should be viewed through the lens of “Trump and his crew are continuing to try to gin up culture wars”. That’s all they have. They were planning on trying to run on “we inherited Obama’s economy and didn’t do too much to screw it up” (ok, not quite framed that way), but well, yeah. What else do they have? It’s an act of desperation, not one of strength.

  150. 150.

    Brachiator

    @Kay:

    He says the guidance isn’t clear and although they have Danish work visas and spent the entire pandemic within Denmark he thinks they’re in the US category.

    I hope they don’t run into any serious problems. The regulations were aimed at people traveling from pandemic problem countries into “safer”countries.

    It’s odd that EU rules allow travelers from Italy to go to England. Given how Boris Johnson has made such a mess of things, I would imagine that smart people would think twice before planning a trip there.

  151. 151.

    Kay

    @dmsilev:

    Oh, I agree, I just think it’s notable that no one even expects them do anything anymore.

    I think we anticipated exactly this, did we not? A racist, mean-spirited campaign chock full of bullshit and lies. Right on schedule.

  153. 153.

    Eric S.

    @Sab: I just closed all my windows, turned on the A/C, and Ozzie the Cat is under the bed. It is definitely his least favorite night of the year.

  154. 154.

    joel hanes

    @Jeffro:

    I have fantasies of going to Maine, seeing Acadia NP and eating nothing but lobster rolls for a few days.

    Played Fallout 4 Far Harbor?

  155. 155.

    Brachiator

    @zzyzx:

    I’m envious of those who love Hamilton and wish I could hear what they do.

    I’m ancient. I love the Hamilton cast album just as much as I loved the original cast album of Hair, when that was first released.

  156. 156.

    Jeffro

    @PsiFighter37: Good tips – thanks!  I think I’m stuck on Acadia because I did a report on it back in…was it middle school?  a LONG time ago, let’s put it that way.  But Portland-area sounds good too!

  158. 158.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: and I love how he/they threw Scalia in there, so that when sensible people reject the whole project (either as wasteful, or because Scalia’s in it), they can go to 11 with their white grievance nonsense.

    ‘THEY WON’T EVEN HONOR JACKIE ROBINSON WHEN WE PROPOSE IT!  WE DIDN’T INCLUDE A SINGLE CONFEDERATE!!”

    Nope.  Not going to let you co-opt folks who you discriminated against their whole lives and still would if we let you, wingnuts.

  160. 160.

    Peale

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: as for me, I’ll just sit here soaking my feet in exotic substances while munching on potato chips I bought at the Asian market, because the Japanese just do junk food better these days. It’s probably not a way of life worth preserving, but I’m fairly satisfied at the moment. I can’t quite figure out what they see in living like paranoid versions of Holly Hobby

  161. 161.

    West of the Rockies

    Super late to the game, but did Stephen Miller write that turd sandwich of a speech?  It was so dreary and pissy.

  163. 163.

    Jeffro

    @JMG: I know that, and you know that.  But all Fro’s dad knows is that it’s a musical about a founding father with a cast full of people of color, and some rap in it, and well…we can’t. have. that.

    Silly, sad, and pathetic.

  165. 165.

    Kay

    @Jeffro:

    For a fleeting moment I thought it was like what 2 term Presidents do, where they set aside land for protected areas, on the way out, they do some stuff they wanted to do for their “legacy” and then I remembered none of them know what Presidents “usually do” so it’s not a sign they’re leaving.

  166. 166.

    zzyzx

    So a band I like is playing a set today in rural Wyoming. One of the fans drove up there and was stoked that they got to see a show in a small Covid-free town because they could then go to a brewery and not stress about it.

    That sounds great, but what happens if you infect people there and you have an outbreak in a place where it’s a 3-4 hour drive to specialists? I have a friend with health problems who used to lived there and she always had to deal with finding ways to getting to the doctors she needed.

    It’s frustrating that people don’t get that aspect too.

  167. 167.

    debbie

    @Kay:

    “Where do we place Elvis Presley? To the right of Thomas Jefferson or just behind Vince McMahon?”

  168. 168.

    Chyron HR

    @brantl:

    Nooooo you can’t call Trump a nazi unless he comes from the national socialist region of Austria, otherwise he’s just a sparkling racist!

    Thanks for sharing.

  170. 170.

    brantl

    @Baud: This is beside the point, the point that I was trying to make was that his direct quotes are sufficient to prove that he is a white supremacist, and that all of the inferential stuff is not useful to convince the people who aren’t on the inside track of Nazi information. That’s what I’m saying. Shorter: it isn’t important to convince the people that agree with you, that Trump is a Nazi. It’s important to convince the fence-sitter, uninformed people, and they aren’t going to get those oblique references.

  171. 171.

    zzyzx

    @West of the Rockies: I mean don’t get me wrong, I’m going crazy without live music as that is pretty much what I do, and if there were a pod drive-in concert or something around me that was all outdoors and socially distant, I’d be all about it.

    It’s just going into an indoor venue and acting like we can just pretend we’re in normal times that I don’t get.

  172. 172.

    J R in WV

    OK, I’ve said this before, and I’ll have to say it again:

    TCNJ == TheoCraticNutJob

    It is as simple as that!!

    We have a NeoCalvinist religious movement that intends to control the members sitting in the pews, and intends to allow the husbands and fathers to absolutely control the women, wives and mothers and daughters, totally. They stand against everything America stands for, religious liberty most especially, and equality as well.

    Patriarchal Theocratic monsters, AKA Republicans. Women can’t even teach their bullshit, because female cooties might make it nastier!

  173. 173.

    Ken

    @The Lodger: (The Ivanka/Melania duet is probably on its 14th or 15th draft by now.)

    Does it have a proper opera ending, with each of them pulling a dagger and stabbing the other?

  175. 175.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: for any given thing that this administration does or says, I usually ask myself, “In what way might they be either lining their pockets or trying to piss off the libs?”  Or both, of course.

    For this one, the statues they’re proposing are like 90% well-known and well-regarded prominent Americans.  But Billy Graham?  Antonin Scalia?  And Christopher Columbus??  Junipero Serra??  No.  They’re clearly just trying to get a backlash going, and then get their own backlash to the backlash going.  Which is kind of (darkly) funny because they have no idea just how very much in the minority they are when it comes to these issues.

  179. 179.

    Peale

    @Jeffro: I wouldn’t put it past them to secretly purchasing a derelict bronze casting factory who’ll be awarded sole contractor for 50 statues and that Melanie’s personal hairdresser – the one who received all that unspent money from the inauguration – will suddenly find that he has an interest in sculpting and will somehow win all the design contracts.

  183. 183.

    J R in WVeric

    @JMG: 

    @Jeffro:
    That’s so silly. There’s far more conventional Broadway musical music in Hamilton than straight rap. The rap is what would’ve been dialogue in say, South Pacific.

    The last time wife and I went to NYC, several years ago, one of our nights out was to a revival of South Pacific at Lincoln Center. The guy who played/sang the planter lead was also appearing in an opera at the time — it was a fabulous production.

    I’ve seen South Pacific a whole lot as a young, and until this performance I never understood the prominence of racism in the plot! The young woman co-star finally learned that the children were his kids, with a native woman who had died. And she was shocked!

    Amazed that I hadn’t figured that out in high school 50 years ago.

  184. 184.

    Another Scott

    @brantl: It’s a very good video, if you haven’t seen it (or have forgotten it).

    Unless you’re a lawyer for the ACLU, in a free-speech trial, arguing that people who say racist things are not true NAZIs isn’t a good look, IMHO.

    People giving opinions here usually aren’t trying to convince others – especially others who don’t read Balloon-Juice.

    Just MHO, FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  185. 185.

    J R in WV

    I have fumbled my user nym, so if someone could fix that and or release the comment, please…?

    Maybe too much bubbly for dinner?

  187. 187.

    Another Scott

    @Peale: What makes you think they would actually buy a factory??

    GovExec:

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency has warned states not to use COVID-19 testing supplies it bought under a $10.2 million contract after a ProPublica investigation last week showed the vendor was providing contaminated and unusable mini soda bottles.

    A FEMA spokeswoman said the agency is working with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to analyze test tubes filled with saline and sold to the government by Fillakit LLC, whose warehouse is near Houston.

    “Out of an abundance of caution, we recommend this media not be used at this time,” spokeswoman Alex Bruner said.

    ProPublica reported on June 18 that Fillakit was using plastic preforms, which are expanded with heat and pressure to become 2-liter soda bottles, to fulfill FEMA’s contract for testing supplies to be used by states. The bottles were shoveled into the warehouse, then filled with saline in what workers described as unsanitary conditions. Some of the states receiving the lab equipment told ProPublica that even if Fillakit’s tubes weren’t contaminated, they were simply too big to be used in lab machinery.

    […]

    FEMA signed its first deal with Fillakit on May 7, just six days after the company was formed by an ex-telemarketer repeatedly accused of fraudulent practices over the past two decades. Fillakit has supplied a total of more than 3 million tubes, which FEMA then approved and sent to all 50 states.

    Wexler has previously declined to comment. A ProPublica reporter visited the facility this month and confirmed that workers were using snow shovels to gather up tubes and filling them, all in the open air.

    Fillakit continues to advertise COVID-19 testing supplies on its website, including “Premier Leakproof Tubes.” The photos of tubes on its website look nothing like the larger soda preforms it has sold to FEMA, according to photos provided by state health departments and former employees.

    […]

    So much winning…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  190. 190.

    SFAW

    @Gin & Tonic: 

    It’s worth going to Portland if only to eat at Duck Fat.

    And if they’re too busy, you can try East Ender, two or three doors from Duckfat. And failing those two, how about DeMillo’s?

  191. 191.

    SFAW

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    There are at least 4 statues of Jackie within 15 miles of the cave here in Glendale(Rose Bowl, Pasadena City Hall, Dodger Stadium, and UCLA).

    See, libtard — racism no longer exists!

  194. 194.

    brantl

    @Another Scott: I never once argued that Trump isn’t a Nazi, what I said was, there are much better arguments to be made, than that his message contained 14 words, or had 2 capital H’s in it. And there are, if you want to prove him a fascist.

  195. 195.

    brantl

    @Another Scott: I never once argued that Trump isn’t a Nazi, what I said  was, there are much better arguments to be made, than that his message contained 14 words, or had 2 capital H’s in it. And there are, if you want to prove him a fascist. If you go into the kind of minutiae these people are doing, you’re going to be asked to wear your tinfoil hat. And that is my point. If this is only inside baseball, then never mind.  I tend to consider any organised political writing to be intended to convince people of the author’s point. Your mileage, and destination may vary.

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