Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Bark louder, little dog.

Bogus polls are all they’ve got left. Let’s bury these fuckers at the polls a year from now.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Even though I know this is a bad idea, I’m off to do it anyway!

No one could have predicted…

Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

Everybody saw this coming.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

Everyone is in a bubble, but some bubbles model reality far better than others!

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / The Price of Being a Rich Dumbshit

The Price of Being a Rich Dumbshit

by | 159 Comments

This post is in: 

Goya is a family-owned company and Robert Unanue is a descendent of the founder, so their stock price won’t take a hit (not publicly traded) and he probably won’t get fired. So, probably, his personal price for this unforced error will be minimal. But fuck ’em anyway, no more Goya for me, and I did buy the stuff. Now, brace yourselves, because there’s a new Harper’s letter coming from the Unanue family detailing how they were ignominiously and rudely cancelled.

Reader Interactions

159Comments

  2. 2.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I looked at some stuff about this company and the family that runs it. They seem very preoccupied with letting everyone know their family came from Spain. Not, you know, those places south of here….

    @Baud: I didn’t read that Harper’s letter half of twitter is talking about, but I gather it’s a bunch of “radical moderate” and “center left” types complaining about people making fun of them, and sometimes being mean. There is now an open letter in response to the first letter.

    I won’t read that either.

  3. 3.

    lollipopguild

    I am trying to figure out what trump has “built”? He has built a house of straw on sand and it will be washed/blown away.

  4. 4.

    prostratedragon

    La Preferida, perhaps? Just bought some beans yesterday, and given the choice I for some reason picked them instead. I think I recall that the Goyas have been known rightwingers for a while.

  5. 5.

    MattF

    I’m not a fan of boycotts, but this guy is groveling, which crosses the line. As it happens, I’m not a Goya customer, so I’ll just continue to buy my minced jalapeños elsewhere.

  8. 8.

    download my app in the app store mistermix

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    They seem very preoccupied with letting everyone know their family came from Spain.

    This is a common preoccupation with my Mom’s family, too, who aren’t rich and are Mexicans.

    And, for what it’s worth, her family didn’t buy Goya – it’s for Cubans and Puerto Ricans.  The brands I remember as a kid are Herdez and Las Palmas.

  9. 9.

    dmsilev

    Somebody call a WAAAAAAmbulance.

    Trump the victim: President complains in private about the pandemic hurting himself

    Instead, Trump often launches into a monologue placing himself at the center of the nation’s turmoil. The president has cast himself in the starring role of the blameless victim — of a deadly pandemic, of a stalled economy, of deep-seated racial unrest, all of which happened to him rather than the country.

    But don’t worry, his staff knows just how to cheer him up:

    Other top White House advisers — including Hope Hicks and Dan Scavino — have also sought to buttress Trump’s mood with events they thought he would enjoy, such as celebrating truckers by bringing 18-wheelers onto the White House South Lawn in mid-April or creating social media videos that feature throngs of his adoring fans, according to aides.

    Advisers also have sought to boost Trump’s mood by presenting him internal polling that shows him in a better position than public surveys, which universally show him trailing presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden.

    Senior administration official John Barron has thoughts:

    One senior administration official rejected the notion that Trump views himself as a victim, saying instead that he has repeatedly expressed his frustration over a virus that seemed to emerge out of nowhere and has ravaged the country, and that his only concern is for the victims of the pandemic. A second official said that the president is most frequently speaking about how the country collectively has been victimized by the virus.

    The first official added that Trump, as a former businessman, is especially well-suited for this unprecedented moment of crisis, and has demonstrated his management abilities by making the decision early on to shut down some travel from China and by waiving regulations to rush coronavirus therapeutics to the market.

  10. 10.

    Lyrebird

    1. Try adding coriander seed (ground) and marinating whatever with some vinegar as well. That’s adobo style from west of the Pacific!

    2. Please no one tell me that the owners of Progresso are right wingers otherwise we’ll be out of good chick peas…

  12. 12.

    Elizabelle

    I don’t so far have a problem with that anti-cancel culture letter in Harpers.  (Caution:  I’ve only skimmed it.)

    I am not down with “cancel culture,” although that does not mean there’s not a LOT that needs to be called out. It’s the zero tolerance level for some issues (and people) that are actually nuanced and complicated.  We are supposed to be people who can hold two opposing ideas, even where evidence for one may be stronger than the other.

    I do have a problem with Goya.  Sad!  And self-inflicted.  What possessed the CEO to do that?  Ridiculous.

    [FWIW, turns out to be an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote. “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”  Interesting article from Quote Investigator on that quote and similar ones.  A Steeplejack-approved reference site, if memory serves.]

  14. 14.

    Betty Cracker

    I am — or rather was — an avid fan of Goya products because I cook a lot of Cuban and Puerto Rican dishes, so I was dismayed by this development. Adobo is pretty easy to replicate, as AOC pointed out; I’ve made my own using a similar recipe. Sazón might be harder to replace. It’s a key ingredient in my favorite pernil recipe. I think Badia makes Sazón too. I hope the Badia people don’t turn out to be assholes who worship Trump!

  15. 15.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @dmsilev: “Mr President…? We have vroom-vrooms? You wanna come look at the vroom-vrooms? I bet they’ll let you blow the horn….”

  16. 16.

    Nicole

    A lifetime of being protected from consequences makes a person really not think, ever, about anything that comes out of their mouths.

    A big bloodstock agent in horse racing recently posted some pretty effing racist things on social media, and has been banned from several of the big sales events, effective immediately. Which, insert Grumpy Cat’s GOOD here, but I can’t help but think, what the hell, you fucking idiot?  At least Internet Trolls know enough to do their shit anonymously, but you posted an opinion no one asked for under your own identity and at no point did you stop to think, “Maybe I should just keep these thoughts in my own filthy head. I don’t actually have to share them publicly!”  It’s what comes from never paying any consequences for anything.

    https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/horses/horse-racing/2020/07/07/kentucky-horseman-tom-vanmeter-apologizes-racist-comments/5391955002/

  18. 18.

    germy

    @Betty Cracker:

    My wife was a fan of their mango juice and the guava juice.  Those tall, thin cartons.  She saw the quote this a.m. and is now searching for an alternative

    “I’m not buying that shit anymore”  she said.

  19. 19.

    Betty Cracker

    @Elizabelle: I thought that letter was pretty anodyne on the surface. Haven’t followed the kerfluffle closely, but my sense is the main things people are objecting to are 1) the notion that the signatories, mostly folks who have enormous platforms, are in any way “silenced,” and 2) that the letter is a way to punch down on critics with far less real power. Whether this is a fair interpretation or not, I do not know.

  20. 20.

    artem1s

    Now, brace yourselves, because there’s a new Harper’s letter coming from the Unanue family detailing how they were ignominiously and rudely cancelled.

    also, you’re the real racists

  21. 21.

    mad citizen

    @Betty Cracker: We should mention our favorite liberal spice purveyor Penzey’s has Adobo spice–I have some, although I prefer their Southwest mix.   Our supply of 40-50 Penzey’s spices has got smaller during the last four months, although I did find another Smoked Paprika the other day.

  23. 23.

    Emma from FL

    @Betty Cracker: Badia is good. I am a equal opportunity buyer so leaving Goya behind is not a heartbreak.

    Here’s an internet recipe that is similar to my family’s recipe:

    3 tablespoons garlic powder

    2 tablespoons onion powder

    1 tablespoon  salt

    1 tablespoon black pepper

    1 tablespoon cumin

    1 tablespoon oregano

    And yes, she used to buy Goya too because making it felt “old world” to her. It has to be pounded in a mortar and pestle (gently!) rather than opening an envelope.

    (adding) It doesn’t have to be used up in one dish, necessarily.

  24. 24.

    Ruckus

    @dmsilev:

    How else would you treat someone with the maturity of a 4 yr old?

    And apparently I may be giving him too much credit, as his niece says 3 yrs old. And of course does it really matter the one year, he is after all in his mid 70s and has had the time to mature, if not the ability.

  25. 25.

    cain

    @Nicole:

    Part of it is that they are over the top in on the conservative bubble – and largely believes the silent majority are all as white and entitled as before. I don’t think right wing media covers all the karens and chad videos so they dont see what happened to those assholes.

  30. 30.

    oldster

    It’s a shame — I like all of their canned bean lines (black beans, garbanzos, habichuelas, etc.).

    But I’m not going to buy them again until they roll this back.

    Sorry — nothing tastes good when its associated with that Russian thug.

  31. 31.

    Emma from FL

    @mad citizen: My dad jokes that I single-mindedly keep Penzeys afloat. They do sazon? I already love their paprika and their Pico Fruta.

    SHOOOOPING!

  32. 32.

    patrick II

    @Nicole:

    A lifetime of being protected from consequences makes a person really not think,

    That’s true of countries as well.

  33. 33.

    Frank Wilhoit

    <b><i>On balance</i></b>, I am in favor of “cancel culture” because it is the only collective thing that we have seen in decades that looks even slantwise like accountability.  Below that, there are only individual boycotts, which, although necessary and rewarding, seldom have any practical effect.

    But every tool can also be used as a weapon; and this is an especially powerful countervailing argument right now, when the resort to weapons, especially virtual ones, has never (in so-called Modern times) had a lower threshold.

    While we’re talking about spices, real flesh-and-bone heads are still being broken.  (This observation does not disparage the value of allegory, still less dispute that it is today overused.)

  34. 34.

    Nicole

    @cain:

    Part of it is that they are over the top in on the conservative bubble – and largely believes the silent majority are all as white and entitled as before.

    True.  Study after study shows that the white people with the strongest racist impulses are the white people who have the least amount of contact with anyone who isn’t white.  It’s almost like, broadening one’s horizons makes one a better person- who woulda thunk?

  35. 35.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @dmsilev: They really do not have any options, because on a daily basis they’re dealing with a 3 year old trapped in a 74 year old body.

  37. 37.

    oldster

    @mad citizen:

    Penzeys is not only a purveyor of excellent spices, and not only liberal — they have been loudly and proudly anti-trump since the beginning of the Russian occupation of the White House.

    When you get a box of spices from them, it may come with an anti-trump bumper sticker in it, or some other direct expression of their patriotism.

    Go Penzey’s!

  38. 38.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Nicole:

    They also seem to shun military service for a couple of reasons: might get kilt, and will be around blacks and browns.

  41. 41.

    rp

    @Betty Cracker: I dislike the letter because it’s so anodyne. It’s fine to say “free speech good!,” but what does that really mean? Without specific examples and proposed solutions, it’s pablum.

  42. 42.

    Ruckus

    @Nicole:

    I notice that a lot of people do hold conflicting ideas, and seem relatively unaffected by the conflict. We seem to notice this more in people of wealth, possibly because they often open their mouthes and leave little doubt as to the conflict, and often suffer few consequences while people of lessor means/position have to live with the results of their conflicts on a daily basis.

  44. 44.

    germy

    Many of the people actually “cancelled” are those long denied a fair hearing of their ideas to begin w/:

    Palestinian human rights advocates
    Abolitionists
    Anticapitalists
    Anti-imperialists

    Not spicy “contrarians” who want to play devils advocate w/ your basic rights in the NYT

    — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) July 10, 2020

  45. 45.

    Bostondreams

    @Betty Cracker:

     

    My understanding of the some of the criticism is that it’s more of an association issue. ‘You signed this, but so did J.K. Rowling, so therefore you endorse her views on trans women.’

  46. 46.

    randy khan

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: 

    I looked at some stuff about this company and the family that runs it. They seem very preoccupied with letting everyone know their family came from Spain. Not, you know, those places south of here….

    Cubans used to sometimes feel the same way. (I don’t know about today) I am reminded that one of my Spanish teachers told me once that Cubans thought they spoke Spanish better than Spaniards.

  47. 47.

    marklar

    In Trump’s hands, the word “Cancel” in “Cancel Culture” is not so much an adjective, but a verb.

  48. 48.

    dnfree

    The current ad at the top of Balloon-Juice For me is from something called “Illinois Republican News”. Good!  Spend your ad money pointlessly.

  49. 49.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Betty Cracker:

    the main things people are objecting to are 1) the notion that the signatories, mostly folks who have enormous platforms, are in any way “silenced,” and 2) that the letter is a way to punch down on critics with far less real power

    I’ve read the letter.  I’m fine with it.  I’m not sure the critics are being fair.  My understanding is that the letter signatories basically feel like they are standing up for people who have less of a voice.  For example, there has been some real ugliness in the controversy over research into transgender disistance.

  50. 50.

    randy khan

    @Elizabelle:

    I don’t so far have a problem with that anti-cancel culture letter in Harpers.  (Caution:  I’ve only skimmed it.)

    I said this on LGM (although not very artfully) – the letter says it’s bad to shame people for saying terrible things because that doesn’t contribute to the discourse.  That’s wrong – telling people the things they’re saying are terrible or evil is in fact an argument.  If you’re arguing for killing Irish babies (sorry, Mr. Swift), it’s a perfectly fine response to say you’re being evil.

  52. 52.

    David Evans

    @Nicole: that is probably true in general, but as for me I don’t think I met a non-white person until college (result of moving from one small Welsh village to another and going to small schools). I don’t think I was ever particularly racist.

  53. 53.

    joel hanes

    It’s this many years later, and I still don’t buy Nestle’s shitty chocolate (Africa/baby formula), Exxon gas (Valdez), BP gasoline (Deepwater Horizon),  Coors beer (everything),  Angelsoft TP (Koch),  Johnsonville sausages (Wisconsin GOP)

  54. 54.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @SFAW:

    Mostly La Preferida and Herdez here in the People’s Democratic Socialist Kenyan Shariah Republic of Louisville.

  55. 55.

    Emma from FL

    @randy khan: Ahem. We do. JUST KIDDING. (added) Cuban Spanish is notorious for machine gun speed and swallowing of the final letters of a word.

    The standard Cuban answer to those boasting of their “pure” Spanish roots was to ask sardonically: Y tu abuela donde está?

  58. 58.

    Tenar Arha

    @Betty Cracker: This is one of those things that as soon as I saw the list of signatories & examples I knew it was going to set stuff on fire.

    OTTOMH at least 1/2 dozen people on that list included some debating over & against other people’s human rights, whose own actions have led to driving others off the internet & trying to get those others fired. And when I read it again, I realized who was meant by the “generalized” examples of editors  who lost their job(s) & ??‍♀️

    Anyway if you’re curious about why that letter is bad—aka totally naive, or out of date discourse, or disingenuous, or trolling clickbait etc. it’s on Twitter (I’ve even been retweeting some of it ;).

  59. 59.

    FelonyGovt

    Married to a guy of Cuban descent and I used to buy a lot of Goya products. No more.

  60. 60.

    Quicksand

    I have always like Goya canned black and pinto beans better than the commonly available alternatives. But La Preferida is good too, and the FEC database doesn’t show any unpleasantness from their owners.

    However, I do still prefer the Goya mojo, and I’ll have to find a replacement for that. La Preferida mojo is awful.

  62. 62.

    geg6

    @Bostondreams: 

    The most valid criticism, IMHO, is that this is a bunch of people with massive platforms and constant attention. They seem to see criticism as “cancelling.” Compared to the people they themselves are criticizing and, in effect, “cancelling” by not taking the criticism seriously in any way, it’s pretty arrogant. And comes off as the worst kind of whining by the rich and highly influential. Was extremely disappointed to see several names on there, but especially Michelle Goldberg. I thought better of her.

  63. 63.

    CaseyL

    I’ve seen Goya products, but as someone who barely cooks, I don’t think I’ve ever bought any.  And now I won’t, ever.

    @joel hanes: I’m impressed!  I can’t keep track of what I’m boycotting anymore, other than expressly avoiding Koch paper products.

    Proctor & Gamble is the only paper product brand I’m certain is not part of the Koch stable, with the added bonus that P&G was the victim of a god-botherer boycott some years ago due to their “Satanic” logo. I’m happy to buy P&G products by the cartload!

  64. 64.

    Krope, the Formerly Dope

    @germy: List is nowhere near comprehensive, but AOC is right. What about ideas that are never allowed to enter the discourse to begin with?

    I suppose that means they can’t technically be cancelled.

  65. 65.

    AWOL

    Goya has dealt with boycotts before. Their ads used to feature only white Latinx people.

  67. 67.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Van Buren: There are examples, even if they aren’t cited in the letter.  Dr. Kenneth Zucker, in 2015, having his clinic shut down over what were basically false accusations.  There was a pretty balanced documentary made about it that activists tried to stop from even being aired.  Its one thing to go after people who have made very public and nasty statements about minorities of any stripe (race, gender identity, etc).  Its a whole other issue when people are getting shouted down or fired because they express unpopular opinions on topics for which the data is still unclear and needs more research.

  68. 68.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Isn’t there some saying about families going from nothing to millionaire to nothing in three generations? When you have family run businesses, competence is not necessarily the biggest factor in who’s in charge.

  71. 71.

    SFAW

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I have sometimes thought about the whole family-succession thing. Although I’m sure there are others, the only son/offspring that I can recall doing better than the father (with respect to the “family” company) was Thomas Watson, Jr, with IBM.

  72. 72.

    randy khan

    @Emma from FL:

    The standard Cuban answer to those boasting of their “pure” Spanish roots was to ask sardonically: Y tu abuela donde está?

    LOL.

  73. 73.

    Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony

    @Baud:

    What I don’t understand is why people can’t just deal with the few extremists directly?  Every movement has them.  Why speak in abstract terms about everybody?

    That is a great point.  I don’t know.

  74. 74.

    Jeffery

    I have used Goya products in the past. Not anymore.

    As sales drop off they will suddenly find a reason to distance themselves from Donald.

  75. 75.

    geg6

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:

    Then they should have cited their examples.  Painting all criticism with the same brush is not cool at all.  I can criticize and call out the shit JK Rowling said about trans women but that doesn’t mean I won’t re-read the Harry Potter series.  It’s just criticism for stupid remarks she made.  She should apologize and try to do better, not go around signing grievance letters about how she’s so persecuted.

  76. 76.

    Jeffro

    Lots of wing nuts on Twitter seem to be saying they’re going to buy ALL the Goya now (so take THAT, libs!)

    As if they know what to do with any of it.  Half the time they’re stumped just trying to open their Chick-fil-A sandwich wrappers…

  77. 77.

    tarragon

    I had an angry response to the Harpers letter.  But instead of my words I’ll share N.K. Jemisin’s response.  She doesn’t swear enough for BJ but she writes gooder than I.

    Short twitter thread starting with:

    Just catching up with this Harpers nonsense. I see why they didn’t name names — because their argument only works in abstract. The moment you cite specifics, you realize they’re supporting mass dehumanization, historical revisionism, and any number of fascist principles.

    https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/1280729504563036160

    And s second short thread:

    Sigh. Free speech absolutism is *not* a neutral position. We can pretend that it is, but that requires pretending that power dynamics don’t exist. The beneficiaries of our current status quo just love that particular game of pretend! Why wouldn’t they? It’s rigged in their favor.

    https://twitter.com/nkjemisin/status/1280924457884884994

  79. 79.

    Frankensteinbeck

    The phenomenon that has been given the silly name ‘cancel culture’ is a not directly physical form of mob justice and vigilantism, based on shunning.  It is allowing people to stand up for the vulnerable and abused who authority refuses to protect, and if you look at who’s president, you’ll see how massive a social need that is.  At the same time, it has all of the flaws of mob justice and vigilantism, such as innocents getting targeted (even deliberately, with false accusations), no way of scaling punishment to crime, and what counts as a crime being decided entirely by the mob’s biases.

  80. 80.

    Kay

    Smartly distancing themselves from the Trump Administration and Donald Trump:

    In its push to fully reopen schools this fall, the Trump administration has repeatedly pointed to guidance from the American Academy of Pediatrics, which emphasizes the benefits of in-person schooling.

    “Schools in areas with high levels of COVID-19 community spread should not be compelled to reopen against the judgment of local experts,” the statement continues.”

    Trump and Betsy DeVos misstated the original position, but almost no one read the original position, so this is more a clarification than anything else.

    “We call on Congress and the administration to provide the federal resources needed to ensure that inadequate funding does not stand in the way of safely educating and caring for children in our schools,” it says. “Withholding funding from schools that do not open in person full-time would be a misguided approach, putting already financially strapped schools in an impossible position that would threaten the health of students and teachers

    At the beginning of the Trump Administration I said that that their incessant constant LYING was going to do more damage than anything else, and it has. It is at the center of every one of their catastrophes. They lie. All of them and always.
    I hope the incoming Biden Administration really thinks about this- how they can be as rigorously honest as possible- make that the focus of the organization. Zero tolerance for lying applied to all employees. That standard HAS TO go back up, or this country is doomed.

  81. 81.

    Mike in NC

    Somebody in the West Wing must have the awful job of lining up wingnut business people to come over to fluff up Fat Bastard’s fragile ego every other day. Look for a return soon of the shithead who owns “My Pillow”. Boycott each and every one of them.

  84. 84.

    opiejeanne

    @prostratedragon: I’ve never seen La Perferida before, but I looked up Rosarita (ConAgra) and Herdez (Hormel) and I will stick with the big evil corporations whose CEOs seem to know to keep their damned traps shut when it comes to politics.

    I’ve never bought Goya and now I won’t be tempted.

  85. 85.

    trollhattan

    Am trying to conjure a “why is a goy running Goya?” joke but need moar covfefe first.

    What a putz. “Sir, why are you so awesome, sir?”

  86. 86.

    patrick II

    There is supposed to be a free market of ideas where the best ideas, like the best products, rise by popular choice to the top. Theoretically, the cancel culture interferes with that.  And frankly (sorry libs) sometimes it does.  However, like there is no economic free market without a context of law and regulation,  a free “idea market” can only exist in a context where the outcome is not corrupted by the people who own the market’s media and push falsehoods meant to further their own short term gain.  Climate change is real, Cornovirus cannot be cured by anti-bacterials, in spite of what FOX, Rush push those views and large mainstream media is owned by people who’s interests roughly align.

    The Vanity Fair article is an idea libertarian’s unrealistic assertion of a world that cannot be attained.

  87. 87.

    JWR

    Great. He’s up.

    Too many Universities and School Systems are about Radical Left Indoctrination, not Education. Therefore, I am telling the Treasury Department to re-examine their Tax-Exempt Status…
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 10, 2020

    … and/or Funding, which will be taken away if this Propaganda or Act Against Public Policy continues. Our children must be Educated, not Indoctrinated!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 10, 2020

  88. 88.

    Fair Economist

    @Betty Cracker: The letter purports to be about stopping “cancel culture” but it’s not talking about cancelling *free* speech, it’s talking about *paid* speech. There’s always lots of cancelling going on for that – there’s no way it could be otherwise; money is a limited resource. They just want the cancelling to be done in secret, by their friends in editing and publishing. That’s why they don’t have any specific examples – the anodyne “protect free speech” business is just smokescreen.

  90. 90.

    rp

    @Baud: There’s a spectrum of views on free speech and the 1st amend. in the legal community ranging from absolutists (“any limitation on free speech is wrong”) to what I guess you could call limiters (there’s probably a better term out there). E.g., commercial speech is an important carve out for the first amendment, but an absolutist might argue that the FDA or FTC can’t tell a business what they can and can’t say about their products because the it’s protected speech.

  91. 91.

    Citizen Alan

    @Nicole:  It’s not just old money, if we consider JK Rowling’s apparent quest to destroy her own brand. If I were transphobic (I’m not, I’ve several trans friends and they’re all wonderful people), but I also were 2 pictures into a 5 picture deal (Fantastic Beasts) that had the potential to net me half a billion or more, I think I would just shut the hell up about how I think trans people are icky and won’t somebody think of the children. Particularly if my biggest claim to fame was a book series that most deeply transphobic bigots probably also consider to be Satanic witch propaganda.

  92. 92.

    Baud

    @rp: Ok, that makes some sense in the context of the First Amendment.  But this whole cancel culture debate is not (on the left anyway) about governmental restrictions on speech.

  97. 97.

    rp

    @rp: It’s been a while since I was in law school, but I believe a lot of free speech absolutists have pushed back against hate speech laws based on the idea that you can’t punish a person for expressing their opinion, even if it’s hateful. It’s a very libertarian approach in that you have to believe that all ideas and speech compete on a level playing field and the best will always win.

  99. 99.

    rp

    @Baud: True, but a big part of the problem is that everyone conflates the first amendment and the idea of free speech. That said, I think plenty free speech absolutists would argue that, even putting the 1st amend aside, no one should be punished in any way for expressing opinions because then we quickly slide into censorship and repression. That’s certainly the tone of the letter. I don’t buy that. We’ve never had unlimited free speech in this country, and we never could.

  102. 102.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Citizen Alan:

    I think I would just shut the hell up

    That may be the most amazing thing.  It would be so easy and practical to just… stop.  Going out and shitting on trans people in public is the most optional thing a rich author could possibly do, and she is determined to keep doing it no matter what.  Of course, people keep pointing that out, so she’s come up with a ‘I’m being HEROIC standing up for the rights of REAL WOMEN’ thing, because British TERFs are fucking deranged.

  103. 103.

    rp

    @rp: Plus, as others have noted, no one is restricting the letter writers’ right or ability to speak. Criticism is not censorship. It’s the opposite! It’s the marketplace of ideas that they purport to love.

  106. 106.

    geg6

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    As a so-called “real woman,” I say she can fuck right the fuck off.  Fucking pedophile enabler and self-styled “equity feminist” Steven Pinker is on that list.  I suppose she’s fine with that, too.

  107. 107.

    Betty Cracker

    I’ve tried to figure out where/in what ways British and American feminism diverge to make views like Rowling’s more common in the UK. It’s not just Rowling. I’m not sure what the answer is.

  109. 109.

    PAM Dirac

    @Fair Economist:

     

    They just want the cancelling to be done in secret, by their friends in editing and publishing. That’s why they don’t have any specific examples – the anodyne “protect free speech” business is just smokescreen.

    I think this is at the root of it. The signers have succeeded with the current crop of decision makers in their fields and if just anyone can criticize those decision makers it can call into question whether they really succeeded on merit or just the whims and idiocy of the decision makers. For the most part the “mob” has no power at all to make decisions, but if the decision makers listen to the arguments of the mob and agree with them it can’t be called free speech because it is bad for the signers, so it has to be “cancel culture”.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    @rp:

    no one should be punished in any way for expressing opinions because then we quickly slide into censorship and repression. That’s certainly the tone of the letter.

    Except I thought the letter was saying other people should limit their speech because they are crossing a line with their attacks.  That doesn’t seem like an “absolutist” position.

  111. 111.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @geg6:

    I suppose she’s fine with that, too.

    …funny you should say that.  Rowling specifically said that she can put up with child porn in her twitter timeline, but bashing TERFs is where she draws the line.

  113. 113.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’ve tried to figure out where/in what ways British and American feminism diverge

    This is a symptom and not a cause, I know, but the big thing British TERFs like Rowling use to claim they’re not anti-trans but just pro-women, is the claim that trans women are denying cis women hard-won freedoms by muscling in on those rights.  Women’s bathrooms being places where men are not welcome, for example.  I haven’t noticed that kind of argument in American anti-trans sentiment.

  114. 114.

    VeniceRiley

    @Frankensteinbeck: 

    The phenomenon that has been given the silly name ‘cancel culture’ is a not directly physical form of mob justice and vigilantism, based on shunning. It is allowing people to stand up for the vulnerable and abused who authority refuses to protect, and if you look at who’s president, you’ll see how massive a social need that is. At the same time, it has all of the flaws of mob justice and vigilantism, such as innocents getting targeted (even deliberately, with false accusations), no way of scaling punishment to crime, and what counts as a crime being decided entirely by the mob’s biases.

    Beautifully stated. Meaning: This is what I was thinking, but could not form the right words to express.

  115. 115.

    VeniceRiley

    @Betty Cracker: I think Andrew Sullivan wrote about it a while back?  And there was some kerfuffle in academia and someone got fired? And there is the matter of NHS and giving hormones to minors.

  116. 116.

    Betty Cracker

    @Frankensteinbeck: I don’t think that’s a fair interpretation of Rowling’s remark about the child porn tweeted into her threads about the children’s story. She said she reports them; she doesn’t call them out because that would amplify them.

  118. 118.

    Krope, the Formerly Dope

    @Frankensteinbeck: the claim that trans women are denying cis women hard-won freedoms by muscling in on those rights.  Women’s bathrooms being places where men are not welcome, for example.

    Wait. Does Britain have an history of denying women separate public bathrooms?

  119. 119.

    J R in WV

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I looked at some stuff about this company and the family that runs it. They seem very preoccupied with letting everyone know their family came from Spain. Not, you know, those places south of here….

    Spain… hmmm. Where would I get the idea that there were a lot of fascists in Spain? Hmmm.

  120. 120.

    Yutsano

    @Citizen Alan: What’s nice about not eating Chik-Fil-A is I just flat out don’t like it. I’ve eaten there three times. Every single time I found it flabby and mediocre. So not going there is an easy call for me.

  122. 122.

    Kropacetic

    @Yutsano: I’ve only ever eaten at Chik-Fil-A once. After my ex left cus he would’ve been maaaaad.
    Personally, I rather liked it. I’ve definitely had worse food in that price range (Sonic, ugggh). I still usually opt for Popeye’s or KFC if I’m looking for some form of fried chicken and potatoes.

  123. 123.

    Gravenstone

    @JWR: I eagerly look forward to hearing how Liberty U (and others of a similar ilk) are swiftly weaned from the Federal teat. //

  124. 124.

    tarragon

    @Baud: Except I thought the letter was saying other people should limit their speech because they are crossing a line with their attacks. That doesn’t seem like an “absolutist” position.

    Hmmm.   I read it as the signers want the ability to say anything without consequences.  The problem is that public shaming is speech too.

    Specifically they say:

    We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences.

    However they do not give specific examples.  They allude to a number of cases but by filing off the serial numbers they allow a significantly more generous view than those cases deserve.  Others more patient than I have tried to figure out who and what the letter is referring too.

    When they say “professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class” it sounds horrible. But if it’s a reference to https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/15/white-professor-investigated-quoting-james-baldwin-use-of-n-word-laurie-sheck then meh.  A student complained, the university investigated, and hey the professor was cleared.  Not so bad.

  125. 125.

    Kropacetic

    @J R in WV: Spain… hmmm. Where would I get the idea that there were a lot of fascists in Spain? Hmmm.

    When I went to Spain as an exchange student, the kid I stayed with seemed to have been involved with some sort of coordinated anti-fascist activity.

    I didn’t get too deeply involved, though I was sympathetic. The event that most stood out was our driver chasing down a motorcycle in a car with no seatbelts after the cyclist smashed the window where I was sitting.

  126. 126.

    opiejeanne

    @Krope, the Formerly Dope: Not sure, but they have a history of not having any ladies’ restrooms in the Olden Dayes. I don’t know if they still do but there used to be a tour of Georgian Loos, built for men. None for women

  128. 128.

    Lyrebird

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Thanks; this business of using public bathrooms to scapegoat trans people makes me so mad!  I think we should be more Continental and have little rooms labeled “Water Closet” where anyone who needs to use a toilet can go in and use a friggin toilet.

    The legal stuff around keeping trans people out is imnsho just riling people up.  I’m not gonna pile on to Rowling specifically bc I don’t know the whole story, I just wish everyone would stop making a political football out of people’s needs to go use a potty!

  130. 130.

    rp

    @Baud: I interpreted it more as no one should lose their jobs or be deplatformed for expressing opinions, but it’s ambiguous. And that goes back to my original point: The letter is useless because it’s so vague. Saying “free speech good” without more context or examples is pointless posturing.

    To the extent they are saying free speech should be absolute but our critics should shut up, there’s a simple explanation: They’re hypocrites. It goes back to Wilhoit’s comment… “Conservatism [or in this case elitism] consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

  131. 131.

    Betty Cracker

    @Lyrebird: I agree that restrooms should be restrooms, and it’s bullshit to use the specter of men stalking girls in women’s restrooms as a cudgel against trans people. I’ve been pleasantly surprised that the fantasy hasn’t gained a lot of steam on this side of the Atlantic.

  132. 132.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: I meant to post this the other day. I heard the head of this organization on Morning Edition. She mostly sounded as if she were reading talking points off a piece of paper. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/08/888853601/school-reopenings-should-keep-public-health-in-mind-pediatric-group-says

    As for the idea of “cancel culture”, I think it mostly doesn’t exist, at least in the way these people think it does. It’s always high profile, mostly wealthy people whining about being criticized as being “cancelled”, as if any criticism of their precious viewpoints by anyone they feel is not worthy is illegitimate. It’s their way of saying “How dare these ignorant rubes criticize me?!

  133. 133.

    PSpain

    @randy khan:   After  I started learning Castellano in Spain  returning to NY  my Cuban doorman asked why I would learn Spanish in Spain.  He said,  “they are all stupid there, no?”

    Odd prejudice I had never heard of before.

    We bought Goya here in Spain.  Will eat some tonight to get rid of it.  No  lo compraremos nunca mas

  134. 134.

    Soprano2

    @Lyrebird: I always ask conservatives who wail about trans people in public bathrooms what bathrooms they are going in, because in my 59 years being a woman I have never seen another woman’s private parts in a public bathroom! They all have stalls, everyone goes in a private stall and does their business privately. My husband says there’s an etiquette in men’s bathrooms about not even looking at each other at the urinals. I think the whole of this issue is that the parents are afraid their precious daughter might accidentally see a man’s penis. When they bring up locker rooms I always say “Let’s give everyone privacy to undress there, since no teenager wants to undress in front of other people anyway”.

  135. 135.

    catclub

    @mad citizen: I still don’t see how or why, one would reveal crimes in one’s tax returns.

     

    I also know that tax returns do not show wealth, they show net income.  I can guess that trump’s net income is very low – from which one can draw the conclusion that he is no billionaire.

  136. 136.

    Chbnna

    @germy: My I make a recommendation? Jumex are similar juices from a Mexican Co. They have guava, pineapple, mango, strawberry, etc. I like guava myself, but try them out. Also, La Preferida is another brand that has similar products to Goya, Chicago based family owned company…haven’t done my research to know if they have said anything offensive tho….

  137. 137.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Chbnna:

    Also, La Preferida is another brand that has similar products to Goya, Chicago based family owned company…haven’t done my research to know if they have said anything offensive tho…. 

    If they were to say anything offensive, they’d get slapped by their own customers who are also their neighbors.

    They’re headquartered in a heavily-Hispanic neighborhood called Little Village.

  138. 138.

    VOR

    @Emma from FL: I needed Mace for a recipe. None of the local stores carried it. I called Penzey’s and they said “which kind?” Wait, there is more than one?

  139. 139.

    Sloane Ranger

    @opiejeanne: This is true. The first public toilets for women in the UK were in the Crystal Palace. They were built for the Great Exhibition and they caused a revolution. Prince Albert and Queen Victoria opened the Exhibition and therefore indirectly leant their authority to the idea that respectable women could use public facilities. Soon every big shop and restaurant were putting them in and middle and upper class women were liberated to leave their homes for long periods of time, knowing there would be somewhere to spend a penny if needed.

  140. 140.

    J R in WV

    @Citizen Alan:

    @joel hanes:

    I still won’t eat Chik-Fil-A even when it’s offered to me free.

    Well… maybe if I was starving, without resources. Then I might decide to eat free Chik-Fil-A, eventually.

    We tried it once before we were aware of their skewed-hard-right fantasies. Terrible tasting, main “spice” is apparently sugar, or perhaps less expensive high fructose corn syrup. Terrible stuff.

  141. 141.

    Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” is credited to Andrew Carnegie. He was describing the Vanderbilts, and pretty accurate. The fourth generation spent a lot of time in shock as the lawyers went through the mountains of unpaid bills and told them the land under the NYC mansions was worth more than the mansions.

  142. 142.

    Emma from FL

    @VOR:  yep. Ground, blade, in corned beef spices, in apple pie spices, in fish seasoning mixes….

  143. 143.

    Mai naem mobile

    I’ve seen Goya stuff in the mega Asian/International grocery stores but there are other Middle eastern/East/South Asian brands for stuff like chickpeas if you go to those stores. Also, the Goya Guava and the other tropical juice/beverages have a bunch of added sugar. There is a South African tropical juice brand called Ceres which are 100% juices. I was hooked on the passionfruit juice at one point. Don’t know who owns Ceres, knowing my luck it’s some Afrikaner family who was pro-apartheid.

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    @J R in WV:

    I ate there once as well. Did not think it was at all good, but the other guys liked it, so I’d bet it’s sugar or some variation, like HFCS.

  146. 146.

    NotMax

    Outside of art museums, no Goya for this boya.

    Only item might ever have purchased, anyway, is black beans and there are plenty of other brands of those.

  147. 147.

    Darkrose

    @Bostondreams: It’s also, “Jesse Singal signed this, and he’s a transphobic writer who uses his platform on the Atlantic to hurt trans kids.” And “Bari Weiss signed this; she’s fought hard to get Palestinian professors fired for criticizing Israel.”

    It’s also worth noting that Singal retweeted an apology by someone who signed the letter and then thought better of it, and did nothing while his followers attacked her. Cancel culture is fine for some people, apparently.

  148. 148.

    Darkrose

    @Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: That’s literally the opposite of what’s happening.

    The people who signed that letter are people with a platform. In many cases, they are using their platform to punch down, hurting people with much less privilege, particularly trans people. They’re mad because instead of being able to issue their opinions unchallenged from the pages of the New York Times or the Atlantic, social media allowes the common, non-Ivy League educated masses to criticize and rebut them.

  149. 149.

    opiejeanne

    @Kropacetic: 1. I guess “ladies” didn’t go out in that district, and women who did were left to their own devices. these were public loos, and the reason there’s a tour is that they were really fancy.

    #2. I only answered the first part of your question, and obviously they had nothing to do with that.

  152. 152.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:

    In many places in Europe that I got to tour on uncle sam’s giving me the day off, almost 50 yrs ago, there were public restrooms for men but none for women. I never figured out how that worked, I always understood that humans of both sexes have to use the facilities.

  153. 153.

    Ruckus

    @opiejeanne:

    In many places in Europe that I got to tour on uncle sam’s giving me the day off, almost 50 yrs ago, there were public restrooms for men but none for women. I never figured out how that worked, I always understood that humans of both sexes have to use the facilities

    How did this work? I can’t make double comments but the system can for me?

  154. 154.

    Darkrose

    @tarragon: They mention “editors” getting fired for running controversial pieces. Since they don’t give specifics, no one is sure, but it sounds like they’re referring to James Bennet being fired after running the Tom Cotton op-ed that Bennet, the guy in charge of the NYT Editorial Page, said he didn’t read before publishing it. 

    Getting fired for not doing your job != cancel culture.

  155. 155.

    James E Powell

    On boycotts. The only reason they are generally ineffective is people don’t participate or, if they do at all, they don’t participate long enough. In a consumer culture, people become very attached to the products & services they buy. There is sometimes a narrative that goes with the product or service. These things are a challenge to abandon.

    The truth is that we can all pretty much get along without any of these things. (There are, of course, some very limited exceptions.)  The way I see it is if I can quit smoking, then people can stop giving their money to the Kochs, the Waltons, and other fascist oligarchs who are making life in America worse for everybody who is not rich. That doesn’t mean they will, but they can.

  156. 156.

    James E Powell

    @Darkrose:

    They mention “editors” getting fired for running controversial pieces

    Did any editors get fired for being Bush/Cheney’s propaganda squad to promote the Iraq invasion?

    Did any editors get fired for their 24 year smear campaign against Hillary Clinton that put Trump in the White House?

  157. 157.

    Ken

    @Nicole: I can vouch for that. Growing up in an east-central Ohio village six decades ago, I was racist and prejudiced. The population was ~1,000 and all wonder bread white. We had no people of any color. We did have two families who were Catholic; otherwise it was WASP, WASP, WASP. At college I interacted with non-WASPs only to find they had similar needs, desires, fears, concerns, etc as I. What a revelation! Insularity and isolation can truly stunt social and moral development. (Slinks off soapbox)

  158. 158.

    Just Chuck

    I thought Chik-Fil-A had switched their donations to the SPLC? Caused quite a kerfuffle among the wingnuts IIRC.

  159. 159.

    smintheus

    My wife buys a fair amount of Goya dried beans etc. but I don’t know why. To me their stuff always seems old and stale if not desiccated. Goya garbanzo beans basically have to have a full work up by a large surgical team to revive anything resembling flavor. I’m relieved that they’re now going to be boycotted.

Comments are closed.