Ketchup has a long history. Its distant ancestor hailed from Fujian, China–a fermented fish sauce known as kê-tsiap. Later innovators like Mary Randolph would popularize a tomato version. By 1896 it was the “national sauce of America”. For whatever reason, I find this all fascinating.
I was very happy to learn that Science Friday had a segment on this last week: Ketchup: A Fishy History. It’s just under twenty minutes long, and–joy of joys–that link even includes a transcript. If this sort of thing is up your alley, why not treat yourself to a little bit of respite? It looks like we could use a thread for it, at any rate.
What’s your favorite Fun Fact about food?
planetjanet
Well, that blows my mind for the day. And I was just thinking of looking up recipes that use fermented honey. Guess, I am in a mood for odd food.
K488
Given that my family name is connected to fermented honey, I’d be interested to read what you find!@planetjanet:
oatler.
garum
Quaker in a Basement
My favorite food fact?
You gotta eat one before you can eat two.
Litlebritdifrnt
Cornish Pasties are shaped the way they are because they were made for miners to take down the tin mines in Cornwall. The “handle” on the side of the pastie was created so the miner could grasp the pastie with dirty hands eat the contents and then throw away the dirty handle. Traditional Cornish pasties had meat or fish (usually mackrel) on one side and jam or fruit on the other side, so the miner had his lunch and desert in one pastry.
Falling Diphthong
From gastropod: Use flavors dissolved in oils if you mostly want aroma; flavors dissolved in water if you mostly want flavor.
Cermet
Interesting about ketchup’s roots – the ancient Romans used fermeted fish guts to season their bread (and that just happen to be a huge source of parasites that plagued them.) So fermented fish hung around a long, long time. Sounds rather unpleasent, even without the parasites.
Central Planning
There was a 3-part series on the History Channel about the Food That Built America. It had ketchup, Birdseye, Hershey, KFC, McDonalds, Kelloggs, etc. It was a really interesting series. Each episode was maybe 2 hours long.
Just noticed – it looks like there’s a 4th episode that came out last month.
Major Major Major Major
@Cermet: You may be familiar with this particular family of fish sauces from Vietnamese, Thai, Malaysian, etc. cuisine.
Cermet
@Central Planning: Was that 4th season about Megadon’s eating whales deep under the ocean now-a-days … it is the ‘history’ channel.
japa21
Fact: Heinz originally called their product catsup, but begrudgingly bowed to the public pressure to rename it ketchup. Though catsup is still used in some areas, predominantly the south.
Brachiator
Fun fact. Salsa has overtaken ketchup as America’s favorite condiment.
Bonus fun fact. Tempura is not a native Japanese food. It is based on a food that the Portuguese brought to Japan in the 16th century.
Celery used to be high class; it was a course on the Titanic’s first class dinner menu.
TomatoQueen
Natural mellowing agents.
raven
Food fact? We have two fig trees and my wife and been off the hook making preserves. We are in a CSA so what did we get today????
sdhays
@Litlebritdifrnt: That’s fascinating! I love Cornish pasties! We actually have a real honest-to-goodness pasty shop here in Northern Virginia. I haven’t been there much since COVID-19, but they’re very good.
sdhays
@Brachiator: This will be the topic of the next culture war…
Major Major Major Major
@japa21: At its root, this difference is because there was no standard anglicisation of Chinese until quite recently.
trollhattan
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Added “food” fact: I learned pasties could be a food at least ten years after learning what pasties, the tiny garment item was. The pronunciation difference was learned even later. I could imagine a miner on opening his lunch box asking, “What are these?!?”
Cornish miner fact: lots of Cornish miners emigrated to the California Gold Fields and to this day their descendants live in Grass Valley and Nevada City, which is where I first encountered the edible version pasty.
mali muso
In my ongoing adventures in sourdough baking, I have been baby-sitting a batch all day long while working from home. Just getting to the point at which I’ve started the oven to preheat. My latest toy/tool is a cast iron dutch oven which is a bit tricky to lower the bread into when it’s screaming hot but does give a nicer crust and rise.
NYCMT
“Quick as boiled asparagus” the pithy quip Robert Graves stuffed into Augustus Caesar’s mouth in I, Claudius, and which was so plosively uttered by Brian Blessed in that role in the BBC dramatization, is a scatological reference.
LuciaMia
In New York City in the 18th century, oysters were so plentiful, street vendors were as ubiquitous as hot dog vendors today
*************
Lobsters were once considered trash food and were given to prisoners.
Emma
The Western food stalls you see in hawker centers in Singapore are a legacy of Hainanese chefs, who historically worked for colonial British families and restaurants. The fancy private clubs are still staffed by Hainanese chefs, I think. Controversial opinion, but I think the crinkle-cut fries I get at any Western food stall are at least on par, if not better, than fries in the UK :)
PST
@Brachiator: And thanks to the Portuguese the Japanese word for bread is pan. I think that may be true elsewhere in East and Southeast Asia for the same reason. Anyway, I’m happy to contemplate ketchup as I sit on the roof at the Twisted Spoke here in Chicago waiting for my burger.
Just Chuck
Korean food like Kimchi is known for being spicy, but that wasn’t the case until the Portuguese arrived in the 1500’s and brought peppers. Before then it was a lot of pickled vegetables.
NYCMT
My second fun fact: in a borough of two and a half million people and 200,000 Jews there are now zero kosher delicatessens. Zero.
Major Major Major Major
@Just Chuck: Sometimes I drive myself crazy imagining various cuisines without tomatoes or peppers.
Jeffro
French fries are just ketchup delivery devices, in my book. BRING ME THE ‘K’!
Just Chuck
@raven: But … God Hates Figs!
Leto
@japa21: can attest, there’s still plenty of “catsup” bottles in the South. We just like to be different/obstinate.
JPL
@NYCMT: That is just wrong. I’ve been craving bagels and finally broke down and purchased some at Trader Joe’s. Imagine if Wonder Bread made bagels, and that’s a close comparison.
Omnes Omnibus
@sdhays: There is a pasty shop just off Capitol Square in Madison, right at the head of State Street. It serves traditional and alternative pasties. I still tend to associate them with the UP and mining communities there – and of course backpacking trips to Isle Royale.
And addressing the original topic: Ketchup (no matter how spelled) does not belong on hotdogs or brats.
JPL
@Jeffro: And did you know they aren’t even French.
Litlebritdifrnt
Another fun fact, the best chinese noodles I have ever eaten were from a tiny restaurant in Aberdeen Hong Kong. Flat rice noodles tossed with fresh veg and soy sauce. Totally perfect. The restaurant was the size of a shoebox and the owners were an elderley couple and their grandkids. I will never forget that day.
Origuy
The best Cornish pasties I’ve had were made by a lady in Palo Alto, who retired when the landlord decided to tear down the strip mall she was in. Her son moved to Elko, Nevada and opened a shop there. As far as I know, BJ Bulls is still in business, but the last time I went through Elko it had closed by the time I got there and I had to leave too early the next day. Worth a stop if you’re in the area.
piratedan
big shout out to the Las Palmas folks, have been using a blend of a can of their mild and then one of their hot red chili sauce as my base for ground beef enchiladas and beef chili to deep culinary satisfaction.
trollhattan
@Jeffro:
Your mission: go over to LGM and tell that to Loomis.
Major Major Major Major
@JPL: Fun fact: the first known (I think) preparation of french fries in the US was served at one of President Jefferson’s state dinners, inspired by a recent trip to France.
Brachiator
Regional food issues. Growing up in Texas, I never saw anyone put ketchup on a burger. Generally only mustard.
When I visited Denver, it was the first time that I saw people regularly putting Mayo only on burgers.
A number of my Hispanic co-worker friends regularly put ketchup on corndogs instead of mustard.
Joe Falco
The crust of a pie or a tart was referred to in England as “coffyn”. English settlers in America cooked their pies in long narrow pans calling them “coffins” like the crust in England.
Source
Comrade Scrutinizer
As recommended by Archchancellor Ridcully, Wow-Wow sauce:
Matured scumble (made from mostly apples)
Pickled cucumbers
Capers
Mustard
Mangoes
Figs
Grated wahoonie (durian may be substituted)
Anchovy essence
Asafetida
Sulfur and saltpeter to taste.
Under no circumstances should it come into contact with charcoal.
Ken
I’ve always been fascinated by the foods that are poisonous unless prepared carefully. Cassava, for example, which is full of compounds that release cyanide, and yet is a staple source of carbohydrates in many countries.
raven
@Just Chuck: It’s tempting to send it to her but I think I’ll pass.
low-tech cyclist
There’s a canned substance one can buy at the grocery store called “Potted Meat Food Product.” People apparently buy it and eat it.
What gets me about the name is the multiple levels of remove. It not only can’t call itself meat, it can’t even call itself food.
Needless to say, I’ve never been brave enough to try it.
JPL
@Major Major Major Major: That’s awesome!
trollhattan
@Leto:
Sounds like the pop/soda/co-cola thing.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Origuy: The best Cornish Pasty in the world is Ginsters, but obviously it can’t be got everywhere. I believe there is a British Pork Pie shop in New York that also does pasties. They are available by mail order.
Kattails
I can’t think of any fun food factoids just now, but I do have recipes for blackberry, banana, concord grape, cranberry, and mushroom ketchup. This whole tomato ketchup thing is relatively new. The blackberry is from Lee Bailey, the others are in Helen Witty’s Fancy Pantry, probably the most stained and dog-eared recipe book in my library–pickles, jams, chutney, bread, mustards, dessert sauces, etc. (out of print but available.) AND the binding has held up, although paperback.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@low-tech cyclist: I survived for a long-time on potted meat product and saltines.
Mike in NC
@JPL: Never bought bagels at Trader Joe’s, but from time to time we get their crumpets. They’re pretty good but will turn moldy in just a few days if you leave them sitting at room temperature.
ET
I like to run random searches in Chronicling America and this seemed a great opportunity.
The National Dish is — Ketchup! (1951)
don’t forget to say please (1913)
Our National Sauce (1896)
women working in a tomato canning factory (1909)
and of course a plethora of advertisements like this from 1937.
But I sort of like the from the NY Tribute from 1921 that looks at three brands of ketchup and one gets an under the microscope treatment all under the header “Our Condiments Also Should Be Sound, Clean and Have Quality”
Rand Careaga
Erik Loomis over at LGM has just called in a drone strike on you, or will shortly, I’m guessing. He hates that condiment, by whatever spelling, almost as much as he hates parents who move to school districts he doesn’t approve of.
Ken
@low-tech cyclist: What else are the processors to do with the meat that can’t legally be put into dog food?
ruemara
My only fun fact is I like making food. Even if I just give it away. It’s a nice stress reliever.
Joe Falco
@Ken:
In the Southeast, there is a weed called Pokeweed that’s poisonous, but if you cook the leaves enough times, the poison is cooked out and is edible. Call it a poor man’s salad.
Yutsano
Beef rendang from the land of our esteemed commentator Amir Khalid is considered one of the most delicious foods in the world. I have actually had it and it’s quite divine. You also have to respect a dish that takes at least two hours to cook until it’s dry.
sdhays
@Joe Falco: In Taiwan, they have a street food whose name “棺材板” means “coffin”. It’s a thick piece of fried bread with the middle cut out and a sauce with mixed vegetables and maybe some meat put inside, and then served with the top of the cut out part of the bread put back on top.
Some pics here: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%A3%BA%E6%9D%90%E6%9D%BF&oq=%E6%A3%BA%E6%9D%90%E6%9D%BF&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.9010j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: @Rand Careaga: It would be delightful if somebody sicced Loomis on this thread.
Chat Noir
@Litlebritdifrnt: I learned that from watching The Great British Bake Off! I’ve been bingeing it on Netflix and love it SO much.
mali muso
@Ken: And then there is durian…with a strong enough odor to be banned in many public places.
LuciaMia
I thought that was Spam.
Sure Lurkalot
I prefer Hunts over Heinz by a long shot. Always have, always will.
oatler.
@Joe Falco:
There’s a girl named Annie used to pick that plant.
Joe Falco
@sdhays: That’s amazing! I appreciate all street food and wish I’ll be able to travel more in the future to try it. I’ll have to ask a Taiwanese friend of mine about it next time I see him!
Cheryl from Maryland
French cuisine as we know it today was brought over from Italy during the Renaissance when Catherine de Medici married Henri ll Valois. Italian cuisine then took off in a different direction thanks to the introduction of the tomato from the Americas.
Jeffro
‘Instead of’??
I dunk corndogs in both – that is the BEST!
catclub
I can only think of the Civil War when I see those three letters.
sdhays
@Joe Falco: If you ever get a chance, definitely go to Taiwan. It’s a beautiful place, the people are really nice (especially to Americans, which is a nice change), and the food is both cheap and delicious!
Jeffro
@trollhattan: ok! ketchup-haters are so easy to convert and well worth my time ;)
@Rand Careaga:
I’m assuming this was to me? People seem to have pretty strong feelings about Wonder K Sauce…I don’t know how I’d live without it.
sdhays
@Jeffro: I’m a bad Midwesterner. I never developed a taste for corndogs.
Not a big fan of ketchup/catsup or mustard either.
Jeffro
@Cheryl from Maryland: did you read that in “Dirt”? I did!
Omnes Omnibus
@sdhays: Corndogs are food on a stick. Food on a stick!
japa21
@Omnes Omnibus: Agreed re: hot dogs and brats. Of course for brats you need the “Special Stadium Sauce”.
Brachiator
@Yutsano:
I did not know this. There is a tiny Indonesian restaurant that has a range of good food that has this on their menu. I think I will give it a try.
If we get the pandemic under control I will venture further.
This also reminds me that I miss going out for dim sum with groups of friends.
Steeplejack (phone)
@sdhays:
Name, please!
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: The only thing I ever liked with ketchup was French fries, and I’m not so fond of ketchup on those any more.
sdhays
@Steeplejack (phone): The Pure Pasty Co.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Cheryl from Maryland: I visited France with my school when I was 14. The one thing I remember with fondness was the potato soup we got for a starter every day. It was utterly delicious and I have never been able to replicate it.
trollhattan
@Omnes Omnibus:
Moment of silence for all the cancelled state fairs, ours included. Stickborne, deep-fried everything, including things you never dreamed could be deep fried and enstickened. Pickles, Snickers, butter? Oh yes.
Fun discovery: I’ve been cycling the river parkway path that goes past Cal Expo and am delighted to report they’ve been grazing sheep and goats–hundreds and hundreds–for fire fuel reduction. All ages, sizes, color schemes of both. Goats are pretty fascinating to watch because they’re smart, communicate with one another and can climb damn near anything. At present they’re mowing down a couple decades worth of blackberry overgrowth.
Sheep are just dumb eating machines, but the little ones can’t help being cute as bugs.
Delk
The sign at the infamous Wiener’s Circle: Dr Pence says u can only get it when 2 hotdogs touch.
mali muso
@Brachiator: Jealous of you to have access to Indonesian food! I grew up in that country as a kid, and the cuisine is quite delicious. Enjoy the rendang. It’s basically beef slowwwww-cooked in coconut, if i recall correctly. Enak sekali! (very tasty)
Just Chuck
I’m mystified at the apoplectic reactions people exhibit when one brings up Vegemite.
Yutsano
@Brachiator: We’ve had a couple Seattle meetups at Indo Cafe and have enjoyed the food there greatly. I think it was with a friend when I had both rendang and durian ice cream.
One small point re: rendang: there is no real sauce to it however it still will make your rice delicious. I also wish Amir was awake right now.
trollhattan
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I’ll go out on a limb and guess the recipe begins with cream and butter, and potatoes are down on the list about Item 7. And I’ll bet it really was amazing.
Guessing it’s common knowledge potatoes, corn and tomatoes all originate in the Americas and were introduced back to the old world and the Orient? They’re so ubiquitous it seems unimaginable. Also hilarious to see how tiny the cornstalk was, originally, as well as tomatoes and potatoes being the size of a thumbnail and smaller.
sdhays
@Yutsano: I’ve had it when I was actually in Malaysia for work, and it was definitely delicious!
MomSense
I learned from a friend that in Salt Lake City they combine ketchup and mustard and call it fry sauce. She told me to try it but to add some sriracha and make spicy fry sauce. It’s delicious. The mustard makes it a bit tangier than sriracha ketchup.
On one of my curbside pickup grocery adventures they substituted unsweetened ketchup for regular ketchup. It was terrible. I added some hot honey and it was much better. Hot honey is awesome for so many things.
Just Chuck
@trollhattan: Nothing beats baby goats for cute. Grown goats are a trip too: I was driving on backroads in California a few years ago and a herd of goats was crossing the road in front of me. Most of them had passed, then one stopped for a moment, looked me right in the eye, and did that perfect scream thing. Spent the next minute just cracking up, it made my week.
Ken
Barbeque sauce. Though they weren’t on a stick, just balls of breaded, deep-fried barbeque sauce.
NYCMT
@JPL: we have good bagels and a plethora of other kosher options just no classic kosher delicatessens any more we got kosher meat Mexican and kosher central Asian and kosher Japanese but no overstuffed sandwiches on decent rye bread
Oh, yeah no decent rye bread anymore either
Emma from FL
My favorite Cuban foods — ajiaco, tasajo, and congri — are all dishes created by African slaves. Fun fact: the name congri (white rice and black beans cooked together and flavored with chunks of pork) comes from Kongo (beans) and ri (rice), in the black Haitian language.
MomSense
@LuciaMia:
When my dad was a kid he spent summers with his great aunt and uncle. They would walk across the street to the ocean, pick up some lobsters and bring them home to cook for dinner. I’ve never seen a lobster there in my lifetime.
Litlebritdifrnt
@trollhattan: When I was living in Scotland I went to the Chippy and asked for a couple of slices of pizza. The guy got the slices of pizza and threw them into the deep fat fryer. I have never seen anything like it.
Ken
@trollhattan: Potatoes are also poisonous. The Incans used to eat potatoes with clay, which absorbed the toxins.
The major cultivars have been bred to have low levels of the alkaloids, though if tubers are exposed to light and start greening, they can develop more.
Just Chuck
@NYCMT: That’d make a great party question: “How many kosher delis are in Brooklyn?” Like, wow, Denver has more.
Damn hard to beat the bagels there tho. I’m told it’s because of the water, on account of all the minerals in the old pipes and water towers.
JPL
@NYCMT: I haven’t had decent Pumpernickel or Rye in decades.
Emma
@Yutsano: haha, don’t let an Indonesian hear that! I see that Wikipedia has taken Indonesia’s side. But yes, rendang in Indonesia is drier than in Malaysia and Singapore, in my experience.
NYCMT
Queens. But I’m trying to name a deli under supervision in Brooklyn and failing
Jazzman
@Litlebritdifrnt: I’m guessing what you had in France was leek-and-potato soup (“Potage Parmentier”). Julia Child wrote “The old French standby, leek and potato soup, tastes so good you cannot believe it is nothing but vegetables, water and salt simmered together.” Very easy to make and my family loves it.
I once bought leeks in an Indiana supermarket and the cashier had apparently never seen them before. “What are those?” “They’re leeks…just high-falutin’ onions.”
Just Chuck
@Litlebritdifrnt: I think in Scotland you have to ask for things _not_ to be deep fried if you want them differently ;)
Litlebritdifrnt
@Just Chuck: The English version is Marmite and people either love it or hate it, there is no middle ground. Personally I love it but it has to be used sparingly, you can’t slather it on like peanut butter, it has to be literally scraped over toast.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Jazzman: I am guessing that or Vichysoisse, whatever it was it was delicious and I have never forgotten the taste of it.
terraformer
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I recently watched a Rick Steves episode in Cornwall – and that’s exactly how they describe pasties there. Very cool! It’s also amazing to me that the tin mines extended far out underneath the seabed, and all dug by hand.
narya
@PST: The last time I was there was for the start of Craft Beer Week events, two years ago (maybe three?).
catclub
But how did they taste?
also, are you missing a ‘t’ in your nym? or has it always been gone?
raven
@catclub:
community-supported agriculture
Major Major Major Major
lol this is great
Just Chuck
Potato-leek soup (or even just with onion) is all right, but Vichysoisse is traditionally served cold, so … meh. As cold soup goes, I’ll take gazpacho any day.
Just Chuck
@Major Major Major Major: He’s going to have to admit it sooner or later: That Onion photo of him washing his Camero shirtless wasn’t photoshopped ;)
MoxieM
@Brachiator: It’s also easy to cook! My ex grew up in Jakarta, so I had a modest repertoire of Indonesian food. My favorite cookbook was by Sri Owen, due to her wonderful explanation of ingredients–and substitutions in western areas lacking things like banana leaves.
And, I’d love to put in a plug for my friend Meg’s book, coming out at the end of the month, The Truth About Baked Beans: An Edible History of New England. It’s guaranteed to be fab.
catclub
selective breeding over a few thousand or ten thousand years is amazing
Litlebritdifrnt
@catclub: Actually I was probably drunk so they will have tasted great. My nym has always been that way. It is a riff from the BBC tag on BBC America when I was living in the US.
Emma from FL
@Major Major Major Major: I am downright falling in love with this man.
Wapiti
@sdhays: I remember corndogs from elementary school cafeteria. I always thought they were gross.
Otoh, there was a donut shop in Houston, Shipleys, that sold kolaches, a sausage wrapped in dough and cooked. Those were pretty nice.
Jazzman
In my neck of the Midwest a “hamburger deluxe” is a burger dressed with mayo, lettuce and tomato (pickle and any other condiments optional). Your gastronomic mileage may vary.
And while we’re on the subject, it’s getting harder and harder to find a decent French fry anymore. Most restaurants around here serve those coated monstrosities with color, flavor and texture miles away from the real thing. Hate to say it, but McDonald’s fries are hard to beat (as long as they’re fresh).
Wapiti
@Major Major Major Major: That ad… have we ever seen Fred Trump’s fucked-up kid drive anything bigger than a golf cart?
Jeffro
And people make a killing on it, too – at some of our local gourmet and farmers’ markets, they charge basically double what the honey would go for, just by adding some red pepper flakes to it!
I’m totally doing that as my side gig when I retire. =)
planetjanet
@Jeffro:
Amen to that!
sxjames
@trollhattan: My father was born and raised in Butte Montana, another city with a large Cornish population (worked the copper mines there).
One of the best meals I ever ate was late at night on a bus from Butte to Chicago, on our way to visit my brother in Illinois. We (wife and I) has bought some *authentic* meat and potatoes Cornish pasties from a baker in town, and round midnight I was hungry and broke one out. Something very soul satisfying about basic food, good company and the whine of tires on a long road….
mrmoshpotato
@Brachiator:
That’s what ketchup gets for not having a dance.
PST
@sxjames: Yeah, Joe Biden would appreciate that. Doubt the other fella would.
Jeffro
@Major Major Major Major: totes awesome
Major Major Major Major
@Wapiti: We’ve definitely seen him sitting in a truck like a five-year-old…
Ken
@Wapiti: There was that picture of him in a truck (tractor, really) parked in front of the White House.
EDIT: Major^4 got there first.
PST
@mrmoshpotato: I think ketchup has been losing ground since Mia Wallace told that terrible joke on the first episode of Fox Force Five.
sdhays
@Major Major Major Major: Does Dump even have a driver’s license?
planetjanet
@Major Major Major Major: That is an AWESOME Ad! Thank you. Make American cars again – electric ones!
Brachiator
@Emma from FL:
And African influence is true for dishes throughout the Americas.
I am also missing Cuban food during the pandemic.
Years ago, a friend took me to a great Cuban Chinese restaurant in lower Manhattan. Later, there was a pretty good restaurant in Los Angeles.
mrmoshpotato
@trollhattan:
Rick Perry will have to buy a box of corn dogs to deep throat at home.
I’m perfectly fine with the circus that was politicians at state fairs not happening this year (or ever again, pandemic or not.)
VeniceRiley
In explaining American sandwiches to Brits and Euros, I explained the regional differences thus:
Northeast: Thin bread, basic deli condiment, metric F*ton of meat.
Pacific coast: Whole grain bread of some kind, most of the ingredients found at a salad bar, a sane amount of meat, specialty condiments.
South: Bread roll, meat that’s been BBQ and sauce.
Had a typical California sandwich (healthy Turkey) today from my local shop: The Pumper Pickle in Santa Ana. Worth a go! They put cranberry sauce on. https://www.pumperpickle.com/
Ken
@sdhays: And if so, for what state and with what home address? There was some… confusion about his address on his absentee ballot.
mrmoshpotato
@PST: I’ll take your word.
Major Major Major Major
@VeniceRiley: Southwest: tacos
Salty Sam
… and all her brothers was good for, was stealin’ watermelons outa my truck patch.
mrmoshpotato
I could really go for some Hecky’s Barbeque right now. Mmmmmm
NotMax
@NYCMT – @NYCMT
Five seconds on der google pierces that canard. (Several listed are not actually in Queens, but discounting those still leaves greater than zero.)
prostratedragon
@LuciaMia: “In New York City in the 18th century, oysters were so plentiful, street vendors were as ubiquitous as hot dog vendors today”
Hence the name of Pearl St. downtown, I understand, as in Ishmael’s walk in Moby Dick.
Somewhere I once read of a strike among the indentured servants on a large 17th century MD plantation in which the issue was that they did not want to have salmon every single day.
hotshoe
@Origuy:
“if you’re in the area” — as if anyone just happens to be in the area of Elko :)
Came through Elko on the way from Utah to NorCal late one evening, and had the most wonderful meal when the Basque restaurant (The Star Hotel) — which was within minutes of their closing time — treated me and my small son like honored guests, and served us family-style even though that meant bringing out the kettle of soup, big salad bowl, platter of fries, etc just for two people.
P.S. According to the book of face, BJ Bull Bakery is currently open in Elko, if you don’t want the whole Basque five-course meal experience.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@NYCMT: I can tell you a great one in the Bronx. My wife was teaching up there for a few years and we were looking for an apartment up there for part-time use.
When we found Liebman’s Deli in the neighborhood, that sealed the deal.
For an added bonus, there’s a great cheesecake factory in the same neighborhood, which is near the 238th street stop on the #1.
namekarB
@Jeffro: Artichoke leaves are just a tool used to convey mayonnaise to one’s mouth
VeniceRiley
@prostratedragon: Ohh you gotta read The Oyster War by Summer Brennan. I couldn’t put it down! Combo history/ plus investigative journalism at its finest!
https://www.amazon.com/Oyster-War-Politics-Wilderness-America-ebook/dp/B011H52XRE/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=oyster+war&qid=1596664507&sr=8-1
sdhays
@Ken: I’m actually curious (although not enough to search for it) if he has ever had a driver’s license. My image of him is someone who has always had someone to drive him, and learning to do anything for himself would be too far beneath him.
Besides, who would have taught him? Fred Sr.?
JPL
@namekarB: Maybe butter, but no to the mayo thing. Mayo and frites might work though.
JCJ
@Major Major Major Major:
Many years ago my girlfriend (now wife) spilled an entire bottle of fish sauce in the back of my car while driving from DC to Indianapolis. That was a rather stinky drive!
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Man, that works on so many levels. (And BTW, that Corvette represents a better investment than anything Donny Dollhands has had his tiny mitts on.)
Thing is, and old guy talkin’ cars can’t be faked, either you’re a gearhead or you’re not. Joe’s a gearhead.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Jeffro: Nope, learned it as an undergrad in a Renaissance art history course.
trollhattan
@hotshoe:
We used to have a Basque place in town that served family-style like that. LOVED it. There might be some left in the San Joaquin Valley, they were once an integral part of agriculture there.
Amir Khalid
@sdhays:
Beef rendang is very rich and spicy, though. That and the looong cooking time mean that it’s usually served on special occasions like Eid or a wedding dinner rather than with everyday meals.
Fun fact: Pre-lockdown, beef rendang was one of the halftime menu offerings at Cardiff City FC’s home games in the Welsh capital. Cardiff City is owned by Malaysian businessman Vincent Tan.
NotMax
@JPL
Yes to that, with gusto. Drawn or garlic butter? Absolutely. Hollandaise, also too.
Mayo? *
shudder
*;)
frosty
@Major Major Major Major: That’s a killer ad. IIRC Joe was OK with Onion Joe Biden except for the fact that they put him in a Trans Am.
evodevo
@low-tech cyclist: It’s a staple among teenage/20’s males in Ky…you spread it on bread for a sandwich kind of thing…I never could stand it, but my husband, hillbilly that he is, grew up eating it…
andy
fennel is the only edible plant that is vegetable, herb, and spice, depending on what part of the plant you are eating and at what point in it’s life cycle it is.
Hungry Joe
Many (many!) years ago I had an Aussie girlfriend. We had an understanding: The jar of Vegemite in the fridge had to be kept inside a plastic bag, and she had to give me time to step outside before she opened it. Horrible stuff.
Salty Sam
@frosty: my absolute favorite Onion article is shirtless, cutoff jeans shorts Joe Biden, washing his Trans Am in the White House driveway.
https://politics.theonion.com/shirtless-biden-washes-trans-am-in-white-house-driveway-1819570732
Thats all I could think of watching his ad with the Corvette, and I got WAY more enjoyment from it than should be allowed.
Amir Khalid
@JPL:
Europeans do in fact like their fries with mayo, as you might remember from that conversation between Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta in Pulp Fiction.
Or you may have actually been alluding to that, in which case never mind.
trollhattan
@Salty Sam:
Oh man, so many treasured Onion Joe memories.
They live-blogged (Tweeted?) Onion Joe during his VP debate with little Paulie Ryan. The thread’s last photo was the lectern top with “Pantera” carved into it with a knife.
Salty Sam
Mmm, potted meat! It was on regular rotation in the sandwiches my mom packed for school lunches, and was my favorite. I still have it now and again, but it seems saltier than it used to be.
Salty Sam
@trollhattan: best part of all that is that Joe said he actually enjoyed the Onion Joe stories.
evodevo
@trollhattan: I always loved this one…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da5tjfpKyac
Delk
@mrmoshpotato: Hecky passed away of covid. ?
J R in WV
I use fermented fish, AKA Thai Fish Sauce, nearly every day, to add complexity of flavor to so many different dishes. This method of flavoring has been in use for centuries. I once saw a film clip of archaeologists diving on Roman ruins undersea in the Med region, and some of them had followed a Roman recipe to ferment fish… some didin’t care for it, others thought it was great.
So , Cermet, you ever eat at an oriental restaurant? Guess not…
trollhattan
@evodevo:
God was that ever worth rewatching. “45” sigh….
Ohio Mom
Brachiator @126:
Oh, I remember the Cuban-Chinese diner! I enjoyed that place so much and feel a pang on the rare occasions I get to drive pass where it used to be.
Ceci n est pas mon nym @137:
You beat me to it, Liebman’s Deli in Riverdale (the Bronx) is the real deal. Kosher and no decor.
My aunt and uncle spent their last decades in that neighborhood, it has everything you need, very walkable. Though a tad far from the subway.
CliosFanBoy
@Joe Falco: And it’s an anti-worm tonic!!!
NYCMT
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: When my wife worked on 231st and Broadway, I would sometimes bring her sandwiches from Liebmans, and when her grandmother Shirley lived at the Hebrew Home, we would break her out of Riverwalk and take her over to Liebmans. When my younger son was born, I catered the bris from Liebmans. Liebmans is one of my favorite kosher delis because it is polyglot and pan-national – you can see everybody in there, and none of them are tourists. And the supervision is impeccable.
@NotMax it is no canard. I live in Forest Hills and m son went to summer camp up in Bay Terrace for 4 years. The Ben’s *used* to be around the corner from the Bay Terrace Country Club, in a shopping plaza near the defunct Barnes and Noble. The Ben’s *was* an offshoot of the Ben’s in Carle Place near the Roosevelt Field Mall, but it existeth no longer.
Holy Schnitzel on Main Street is *not* a deli. It’s a kosher meat place that is far too Orthodox to be an old-fashioned deli. They don’t even have corned beef or pastrami or roast turkey.
Knish-Nosh is good, but it is not a deli. It carries some delicatessen, including a decent brisket, but none of it is consumable on premises, even before Covid-19, and they don’t do the old overstuffed sandwich.
Whatever Nicks in Astoria is, it ain’t a kosher deli if they have New England Clam Chowder.
Mechy’s is run by the same people who ran Dougies, which was all fried crap. Kosher McDonalds.
No, I’m right. When Ben’s Best on Queens Boulevard went out two years ago that was it for Queens. No more stuffed derma unless I make-a it for myself.
CliosFanBoy
@low-tech cyclist: is that like “Deviled Ham” (which I love)
Joe Falco
@J R in WV:
It was probably Garum, which I recently watched a video about it. The guy has his own series on YouTube where he tries to recreate foods found in ancient and not-so-ancient history and gives a history lesson about what he’s cooking. Garum video here.
Origuy
@trollhattan: There’s a really good Basque restaurant in Los Banos, called the Wool Growers. Family-style, although it looks like they have changed the menu for the time being.
Barbara
@Brachiator: I’ll play. Lobster and crab used to be low class — what the servants ate — because higher classes didn’t want to eat bottom feeders.
NYCMT
Now let’s see, which kosher delis in the metro suburbs are okay?
Starting in Westchester – I’ve gone to Epstein’s on Central Avenue in Scarsdale/WP for 30 years. Ah the Roumanian steak platter! Unfortunately my parents took some sandwiches out a couple months ago from there after dad had a procedure and they got violently ill in the parking lot.
Kosher Nosh in Glen Rock is good. Really good. I bought two sandwiches there for lunch in the middle of July, roast beef and a turkey/corned beef, along with a broccoli knish, two cel-rays, and a black cherry, and took them to the Bergen County County Park for a picnic with my wife and younger son after handing off the elder to my in-laws, and we had a lovely picnic until the younger kid pooped himself and then barfed himself from carsickness so we had to abort our last weekend down the shore.
When Harold’s II in Paramus reopens that’s a good sandwich place. A real arbeitersnosh.
Eppes Essen is okay, not super amazing, but okay.
Ben’s in Carle Place is mediocre-to-okay but they have the menu and they do certain comfort dishes like chicken fricassee perfectly. And my older son loved his roast beef sandwich from there. The kreplach soup is meh. Nothing like Kaplan’s in Monticello forty years ago.
matted foxes
In the movie “Meet Me in Saint Louis”, which is a 1944 view back to the turn of the last century, there is a scene where they’re making catsup in a big pot and everyone in the family wanders through to give an opinion. That was my first hint that catsup hadn’t always come out of a bottle. Also, great movie – especially the halloween segment.
p.s., the full piece is actually in the Science Diction podcast
NotMax
@NYCMT
There’s a bunch o’ Ben’s. Tried the one in, IIRC, Roslyn. Mediocre at best, not worth a return trip.
If you can get to Great Neck without making a long journey, four hops and a skip from the border with Queens is the Kensington Deli. Old school decor (and I use the word decor extremely loosely), traditional kosher deli menu staples – including stuffed derma (recommend requesting the gravy on the side, though).
Steeplejack (phone)
@sdhays:
Thank you!
Tim
@Omnes Omnibus:
There’s not enough food in cones.
NYCMT
@NotMax:
Kensington is down the street from the old kids shoe store, right. A half block north of the train tracks? I think the last time I was there was after a big family portrait at the photographers in Great Neck. Ten years, I think. We don’t usually go to Great Neck. It’s not so far, but it is a bit of a pain in the ass to park in downtown Great Neck.
hotshoe
@Origuy:
I’ve eaten there three times, most recently a year ago. Worth a special trip.
Glad to hear they are surviving the pandemic disruption, so far at least.
hotshoe
Tim
@Jazzman: Carolina style: Cole slaw, chili, onions. Yum.
RobNYNY
@Ken:
I used to get stomach aches from eating green/crab apples on my grandparents’ farm. Those cultivars, at least, were toxic until ripe. My grandmother (sainted be her name) knew every plant in the surrounding forest, and collected berries, nuts, and herbs, but never touched mushrooms (“toadstools” in her dialect of Irish English) or may apples (which are really toxic until ripe). She was also terrified of raisins. If we ate raisins, and then had a hot beverage, our stomachs would explode from the expansion of the raisins. It never occurred to her that the raisins plus the hot water could never be larger than the raisins plus the hot water.
sempronia
Very very dead thread, but I’ve not heard that history of ketchup as a fermented fish sauce. I always thought that ketchup meant tomato sauce. In Cantonese, ketchup is called “ke-tsup” (茄汁), meaning tomato sauce (tomato 蕃茄, sauce 汁).
NotMax
@NYCMT
Sorry for late response, onset of major nap intervened.
Yeah, just up the street from the train station. Parking is better since several new lots and parking structures have been built.
Frank
My favorite food fact: to botanists, strawberries and raspberries are NOT berries but cantaloupe and eggplant ARE; so are blueberries.