Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

This blog will pay for itself.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Infrastructure week. at last.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Let there be snark.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

John Fetterman: Too Manly for Pennsylvania.  Paid for by the Oz for Senator campaign.

Today’s GOP: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Trump Crime Cartel / Oh, Wow! Turns Out Trump is Not a Genius Businessman

Oh, Wow! Turns Out Trump is Not a Genius Businessman

by | 202 Comments

This post is in: 

I know you are all shocked:

Donald J. Trump paid $750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency. In his first year in the White House, he paid another $750.

He had paid no income taxes at all in 10 of the previous 15 years — largely because he reported losing much more money than he made.

As the president wages a re-election campaign that polls say he is in danger of losing, his finances are under stress, beset by losses and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due that he has personally guaranteed. Also hanging over him is a decade-long audit battle with the Internal Revenue Service over the legitimacy of a $72.9 million tax refund that he claimed, and received, after declaring huge losses. An adverse ruling could cost him more than $100 million.

The tax returns that Mr. Trump has long fought to keep private tell a story fundamentally different from the one he has sold to the American public. His reports to the I.R.S. portray a businessman who takes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year yet racks up chronic losses that he aggressively employs to avoid paying taxes. Now, with his financial challenges mounting, the records show that he depends more and more on making money from businesses that put him in potential and often direct conflict of interest with his job as president.

The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office. It does not include his personal returns for 2018 or 2019. This article offers an overview of The Times’s findings; additional articles will be published in the coming weeks.

Biden should be able to provoke a meltdown in the debates over this.

Reader Interactions

202Comments

  1. 1.

    MomSense

    Holy shit. Back in 2016 I joked that if we got Sanders’ and Trump’s tax returns we’d find out Sanders had more money.

  2. 2.

    Another Scott

    No clicks for me to give FTFNYT, but I’m confused. They don’t have his returns for 2018 and 2019, but they know that he only paid $750 in each year?

    How?

    Did something get garbled?

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  3. 3.

    donnah

    As always, the first headlines sound damning. Trump’s taxes have been a holy grail for Democrats hoping to catch him in illegal criminal acts. No one wants him to be found guilty of tax evasion/fraud more than I, but he’s always had teams of lawyers and experts to cover him, so I’m going to say “yay” for now, but wait for what happens next.

  4. 4.

    WaterGirl

    I have been talking to myself about this in a previous thread.  More excerpts: (bolding mine)

    Now, with his financial challenges mounting, the records show that he depends more and more on making money from businesses that put him in potential and often direct conflict of interest with his job as president.

    …..

    The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office. It does not include his personal returns for 2018 or 2019.

    …..

    Tax records do not have the specificity to evaluate the legitimacy of every business expense Mr. Trump claims to reduce his taxable income — for instance, without any explanation in his returns, the general and administrative expenses at his Bedminster golf club in New Jersey increased fivefold from 2016 to 2017. And he has previously bragged that his ability to get by without paying taxes “makes me smart,” as he said in 2016.

    But the returns, by his own account, undercut his claims of financial acumen, showing that he is simply pouring more money into many businesses than he is taking out.

    …..

    The picture that perhaps emerges most starkly from the mountain of figures and tax schedules prepared by Mr. Trump’s accountants is of a businessman-president in a tightening financial vise.

    Most of Mr. Trump’s core enterprises — from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative-magnet hotel in Washington — report losing millions, if not tens of millions, of dollars year after year.

  7. 7.

    WaterGirl

    @Another Scott:

    The tax data examined by The Times provides a road map of revelations, from write-offs for the cost of a criminal defense lawyer and a mansion used as a family retreat to a full accounting of the millions of dollars the president received from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow.

    Together with related financial documents and legal filings, the records offer the most detailed look yet inside the president’s business empire. They reveal the hollowness, but also the wizardry, behind the self-made-billionaire image — honed through his star turn on “The Apprentice” — that helped propel him to the White House and that still undergirds the loyalty of many in his base.

  10. 10.

    Another Scott

    @WaterGirl: Ah, ok thanks.

    We all know that his business records are as crooked as Lombard Street.  $750 is probably the minimum he can get away with owing without triggering an automatic audit, or something.

    Remember the story in Spy magazine about him endorsing checks for $0.06 or some ridiculously small amount, just to hoover up every possible penny…

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  11. 11.

    MattF

    1. This information was bound to come out.
    2. Yeah, Trump is not a financial genius. He’s pissed away billions of dollars and currently owes (at least) hundreds of millions.
    3. We still don’t know about his services to the Russian oligarchy.
    4. Um, conflicts of interests?
  14. 14.

    RSA

    When was the last time you paid as little as $750 in federal income tax? For me it was when I was working part-time jobs in high school and college.

  21. 21.

    Mousebumples

    1) Raise your hand if you paid more in taxes than Trump for 2016 and 2017. *raises hand*

    2) The most likely fraud, so far as I’ve heard, would be were he to report different income or earnings on, say, loan applications.

    If they are different (and this is speculation only at this point), which one is accurate?

    3) If/When we get back control of Congress and the White House, can we PLEASE up the funding for White Collar Crime investigations?

  23. 23.

    Mary G

    Borrowed the housemate’s PC to read it. Looks like Ivanka got a lot:

    The “consultants” are not identified in the tax records. But evidence of this arrangement was gleaned by comparing the confidential tax records to the financial disclosures Ivanka Trump filed when she joined the White House staff in 2017. Ms. Trump reported receiving payments from a consulting company she co-owned, totaling $747,622, that exactly matched consulting fees claimed as tax deductions by the Trump Organization for hotel projects in Vancouver and Hawaii.

    I am not a CPA or lawyer, but it seems it this might be a problem:

    The I.R.S. has pursued civil penalties against some business owners who devised schemes to avoid taxes by paying exorbitant fees to related parties who were not in fact independent contractors. A 2011 tax court case centered on the I.R.S.’s denial of almost $3 million in deductions for consulting fees the partners in an Illinois accounting firm paid themselves via corporations they created. The court concluded that the partners had structured the fees to “distribute profits, not to compensate for services.”

    There is no indication that the I.R.S. has questioned Mr. Trump’s practice of deducting millions of dollars in consulting fees. If the payments to his daughter were compensation for work, it is not clear why Mr. Trump would do it in this form, other than to reduce his own tax liability. Another, more legally perilous possibility is that the fees were a way to transfer assets to his children without incurring a gift tax.

  24. 24.

    HinTN

    @WaterGirl: Not a chance. They’ll pivot to “he’s successful at poking his finger in the eye of the (gummint) man” because deep down inside he says what they want to say about the “other” people.

  25. 25.

    WaterGirl

    @Mousebumples: If we followed up on white collar crime, that might bring in enough to fund the government.  And it would certainly save a lot of little people from losing their shirts because of white collar schemes.

  27. 27.

    Morzer

    Well, now you know why Trump has been so desperate to appease Putin. Putin holds his markers for all those millions of dollars of Russian mafia money funneled through the Trump Crime Organization.  Why has Trump grovelled to authoritarians? Because they could give him a little something to keep him afloat. Never enough to let him clear his debts – that would be naive – but enough to keep him groping for more.

  31. 31.

    germy

    In response to a letter summarizing The Times’s findings, Alan Garten, a lawyer for the Trump Organization, said that “most, if not all, of the facts appear to be inaccurate” and requested the documents on which they were based. After The Times declined to provide the records, in order to protect its sources, Mr. Garten took direct issue only with the amount of taxes Mr. Trump had paid.

    Good thing the leakers didn’t send the documents to Glenn Greenwald.

  33. 33.

    Raoul Paste

    One of his lawyers is apparently claiming this is all fake news

    Denying reality is all they have left but this will work with a good fraction of the Fox rubes

  36. 36.

    WaterGirl

    @opiejeanne: They do not say.

    The New York Times has obtained tax-return data extending over more than two decades for Mr. Trump and the hundreds of companies that make up his business organization, including detailed information from his first two years in office. It does not include his personal returns for 2018 or 2019.

  39. 39.

    Mary G

    One big takeaway on NYT report: Trump personally guaranteed $400 million in loans due by 2022, is battling IRS over a $72 million refund, and is declaring losses in almost all his businesses. He is close to owing $500 million—personally. Why did Deutsche Bank lend him billions?— Robert J. DeNault (@robertjdenault) September 27, 2020

  40. 40.

    germy

    No subject has provoked more intense speculation about Mr. Trump’s finances than his connection to Russia. While the tax records revealed no previously unknown financial connection — and, for the most part, lack the specificity required to do so — they did shed new light on the money behind the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow, a subject of enduring intrigue because of subsequent investigations into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.

    The records show that the pageant was the most profitable Miss Universe during Mr. Trump’s time as co-owner, and that it generated a personal payday of $2.3 million — made possible, at least in part, by the Agalarov family, who would later help set up the infamous 2016 meeting between Trump campaign officials seeking “dirt” on Mrs. Clinton and a Russian lawyer connected to the Kremlin.

  43. 43.

    Marcopolo

    From Max Kennerly:

    Federal income taxes paid in 2017 (jointly with spouse):

    Joe Biden – $3,742,974
    Kamala Harris – $516,469
    Bernie Sanders – $343,882
    Elizabeth Warren – $268,484

    Donald Trump – $750

    See, the problem with Democrats is they actually want to fund government..

    Also, WTF kind of debt juggling act would one have to engage in to repeatedly report losing money across a wide range of businesses (including pumping millions more in annually) without having to go the person bankruptcy route.  Are Trump’s assets actually valued at more than his liability/loses.  Inquiring minds want to know.

  44. 44.

    Jim Appleton

    @WaterGirl:

     

    Could be.  I’m skeptical that anyone who bought his Apprentice shtick is capable of that kind of awareness.  Would love love love to be surprised, and this is not meant to jackal you.

  46. 46.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    Good job by these NY Times reporters, but how much will this latest information move the needle with the goddamn fucking morons that keep showing up at these stupid campaign rallies?

    If we lived in a sane society, Trump’s poll numbers would have crashed and burned after the release of the audiotape conversations with Bob Woodward.

  49. 49.

    David Anderson

    @RSA: 1995, I worked as a city lifeguard at McPherson Pool for 36 hours/week for 10 weeks at $7.50/hr.  I had off the book refereeing income and some paper route income covering for my sisters.

    1996 I had enough on the book income to owe a good amount to me in taxes.

  50. 50.

    Mary G

    The theory that voters won't be happy to learn that most of them pay more in federal income tax than the president is probably right, but the universe of people who (a) read/trust the NYT and (b) might change their vote because of Trump's financial situation is pretty small.— G. Elliott Morris (@gelliottmorris) September 27, 2020

  52. 52.

    Morzer

    @LuciaMia: In fact, Trump was such a hero that he lost money even before becoming POTUS.  He even bankrupted his own casino – four times.  Bankruptcies were his Purple Hearts earned in the service of the American people…

  54. 54.

    Brachiator

    The tax returns that Mr. Trump has long fought to keep private tell a story fundamentally different from the one he has sold to the American public. His reports to the I.R.S. portray a businessman who takes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year yet racks up chronic losses that he aggressively employs to avoid paying taxes.

    People would applaud Trump for this. No one has an obligation to pay taxes if they can legally reduce their tax liability. This applies to the wealthy as much as to anyone else. Trump has obviously been working the shit out of net operating losses.

    So, if he earns millions and uses losses to protect those millions, his base and some others will shrug their shoulders. Of course, they have to jump through some hoops to justify their belief that Trump is a “great” business genius, but they have been dancing for him for years now.

    Now, with his financial challenges mounting, the records show that he depends more and more on making money from businesses that put him in potential and often direct conflict of interest with his job as president.

    This is a lot more serious. And this might hurt Trump with people who are still on the fence. Trump true believers will shrug it off. They don’t care about Trump criminality. They are all in.

    ETA: one of the fantasies that I dismiss is that Trump is a brilliant businessman who employs brilliant CPAs to find all the right deductions.  More likely, Trump and his cronies bribe legislators and hire lobbyists who help write tax laws that benefit the plutocrats.. You don’t need to look for loopholes when you have people creating them for you.

  55. 55.

    Mary G

    Beside the point… but holding a press conference after this NYT story breaks is political malpractice — his response gives every news outlet a hook to pick up the Times’ findings— Blake News (@blakehounshell) September 27, 2020

  57. 57.

    Ken

    @mrmoshpotato: not how much of a Soviet shitpile mobster conman.

    Will we be able to tell by what happens when he fails to make the payments?  Novichok if he was high up, a fall out of a window if not that important?

  64. 64.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    “He’s a shrewd business guy who lives off of other people’s money and is brilliant in avoiding taxes. This is the sort of businessman/politician I can support.”

    – My Parents, 3/4 of My Extended Family and 80% of my Facebook Friends

  68. 68.

    Morzer

    @Ken: “Mr. Trump had long been an enthusiastic practitioner of parkour and simply mistimed his leap from the top of the Empire State Building…”

  69. 69.

    Mary G

    This story is so important & I would love to see a breakdown of where Trump's hundreds of millions of unpaid taxes would have gone had he paid them. Let's see a list of who he cheated: Firefighters, librarians, school kids, cops, soldiers, single moms who need to feed their kids.— Jill Filipovic (@JillFilipovic) September 27, 2020

  70. 70.

    Another Scott

    "In 2018… Trump announced in his disclosure that he had made at least $434.9 million.

    The tax records deliver a very different portrait of his bottom line: $47.4 million in losses."

    — Jedi (@_Jedi_Night) September 27, 2020

    That’s just how smart people play the game, amirite??!!1

    Grrr…

    (via Popehat)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  72. 72.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @Baud:

    I think it was remarked upon in an earlier thread that the race has remained incredibly stable with Biden ahead nationally and in the battleground states he needs to win the EC. The Supreme Court pick hasn’t seemed to have benefited him with voters, at least not yet. I remember reading here that his numbers with evangelicals were slumping

  73. 73.

    Kathleen

    @WaterGirl:  Silly me, but I was surprised that Trump’s stiffing his vendors/contractors didn’t get much attention. I would think if nothing else bankrupting small businesses because he stiffed them would have alienated “Real Middle Class White Voters”.

  76. 76.

    zhena gogolia

    I know everyone is going to scoff at me, but I’m old enough to remember Watergate. This kind of has that feel to it (Martha Mitchell on the phone, etc., etc.). I had forgotten what it felt like, but it just flashed on me that it felt like this.

  77. 77.

    Baud

    @zhena gogolia:

    I don’t know. I’ve given up thinking there’s going to be a “thing” that causes a major change in how people are going to vote.  I’m ok with just trying to chip away at it.  If something better happens, it happens.

  78. 78.

    Marcopolo

    Not gonna post any ActBlue links but in honor of Trump’s 2016 & 2017 tax bills a number of campaigns are now doing contribute $750, $75, or $7.50 fund raising appeals. If that’s the kind of gesture that will make your day, go to it.

  80. 80.

    Brachiator

    @Zzyzx: 

    it’s not about moving the needle as much as preventing Trump from gaining ground. Every week things are going poorly for him is a good thing.

    Very true. Trump’s attempts at attack are not getting as much play as previously.

    Trump was better at campaigning as a challenger than as an incumbent. He can’t really stand on his awful record.

    But it is troubling that he is so blatantly misusing the power of his office to try to steal the election. It’s his only play.

  81. 81.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Baud:

    That uttered statement usually comes from the grizzled face of an underemployed and motivation ally challenged while guy over 45.

  82. 82.

    Mary G

    I was expecting any press conference on a Sunday evening to be completely crazy pants bonkers, and I am here to tell you that the president is not disappointing me on that— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) September 27, 2020

    He just literally turned to Rudy Giuliani and asked him if he was Catholic— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) September 27, 2020

  83. 83.

    Marcopolo

    @Brachiator:

    More likely, Trump and his cronies bribe legislators and hire lobbyists who help write tax laws that benefit the plutocrats.. You don’t need to look for loopholes when you have people creating them for you.

    Senator/Professor Warren had a long riff about this “tilting” of the playing field & how it adds up over the course of a few decades.

  87. 87.

    Marcopolo

    Before I go to dinner I just want to add that this is yet another thing that Hillary nailed in 2016 (clip from the first debate):

    She was right. pic.twitter.com/tlZlzb0e5t— Niles Edward Francis (@NilesGApol) September 27, 2020

    And:

    Worth noting that significant delinquent debt disqualifies most people from obtaining a government security clearance. The U.S. government views this as a vulnerability and a point of leverage for foreign adversaries seeking access to classified information

    The U.S. government views this as a vulnerability and a point of leverage for foreign adversaries seeking access to classified information.

  88. 88.

    johnnybuck

    @Wyatt Salamanca:  Was anybody really shocked by Woodward’s book though? Is anybody really shocked by this story? We knew he was broke, we knew he knew how dangerous the virus was.

    After the Access Hollywood tape everybody knew.

  93. 93.

    germy

    Worth noting that significant delinquent debt disqualifies most people from obtaining a government security clearance.

    The U.S. government views this as a vulnerability and a point of leverage for foreign adversaries seeking access to classified information.

    — Josh Campbell (@joshscampbell) September 27, 2020

  94. 94.

    johnnybuck

    @Baud: I think people know intrinsically who Donald Trump is was the point I was trying to make. They were never conned, they jusy didn’t give a fuck.

  95. 95.

    Princess

    If this is all “fake news” Trump has a simple way to prove it. He can release his tax returns, like every other presidential candidate. Anyone who tells you it is fake, ask them why he hasn’t released his returns to prove it to us all.

  97. 97.

    Morzer

    @Baud: True, but these things all circulate through social media and add to the overall impression people have of things. Every day that Trump has to deny that he’s a bankrupt fraudster is a day that he can’t do anything to change the narrative – not that he was doing much of a job of that on his “best” days.

  99. 99.

    Emma from FL

    Jesus Christ. Here we go again. “Nothing will change.” “They’ll just say he was a good businessman.” Blah, blah, blah.
    Look, we know, ok? Trumpists are gonna Trump. But there might be a small but significant number of people that will look at their own taxes and go “huh? mine have gone up for three years in a row and his get smaller?” Or “I got caught by the IRS and I’m still paying the bill, dammit.” Or better yet “I pay taxes so his lazy kids can keep sponging off us?”
    Take your eyes off the irredeemable 27% and the single-issue 8%. We’re fishing in the deep and narrow water of the 5% that can be moved.

  100. 100.

    germy

    The Great Man responds: “It’s fake news.”

    "It's fake news … actually I paid tax … it's under audit" — Trump denies a New York Times report that he only paid $750 in federal income taxes in 2016 and '17, but doesn't present any evidence to the contrary pic.twitter.com/RkosMUQpES— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 27, 2020

  102. 102.

    Baud

    @johnnybuck:

    There are many facets the Trump’s horribleness.  Not everyone appreciates all of them.  I don’t think this will move the needle significantly, but it’ll turn some people off, and help maximize our wins.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    @zhena gogolia:

    I know everyone is going to scoff at me, but I’m old enough to remember Watergate.

    No scoffing from here.

    This kind of has that feel to it (Martha Mitchell on the phone, etc., etc.). I had forgotten what it felt like, but it just flashed on me that it felt like this.

    Some of those days were wild. But they were also a time when the press briefly shook off its laziness and complacency and took on the White House.

  105. 105.

    Morzer

    @Baud: You know, if we are going to run you in 2028, you really do need to work on bankrupting at least one business, preferably two.

  108. 108.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma from FL: But there might be a small but significant number of people that will look at their own taxes and go “huh? mine have gone up for three years in a row and his get smaller?” Or “I got caught by the IRS and I’m still paying the bill, dammit.” Or better yet “I pay taxes so his lazy kids can keep sponging off us?”

    Or the employee truck driver who, thanks to “tax reform” can no longer deduction any of their expenses from being on the road and now owes $5K instead of getting a modest refund.  The job, income, and expenses didn’t change but the taxes did.  Yeah, that guy isn’t going to like Trump too much.

  111. 111.

    Baud

    Donald Trump paid just $750 in income taxes in 2016 and 2017. He knows better than anyone that there’s one set of rules for the wealthy and giant corporations and another for hardworking Americans—and instead of using his power to fix it, he's taken advantage of it at every turn. https://t.co/b8EsstEf5T— Elizabeth Warren (@ewarren) September 27, 2020

  112. 112.

    Brachiator

    @Marcopolo:

    Also, WTF kind of debt juggling act would one have to engage in to repeatedly report losing money across a wide range of businesses (including pumping millions more in annually) without having to go the person bankruptcy route. Are Trump’s assets actually valued at more than his liability/loses. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Trump has had his share of business bankruptcies.

    Although Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy, hotels and casino businesses of his have declared bankruptcy six times between 1991 and 2009 due to its inability to meet required payments and to re-negotiate debt with banks, owners of stock and bonds and various small businesses (unsecured creditors).

    Again, Trump supporters don’t care or don’t understand how this undermines Trump’s claims to be a master businessman.

  113. 113.

    Ken

    Any word yet on who leaked the tax information?  Is there someone with access to his corporate tax records who, say, is under investigation and might have done this to take some heat off himself, or as a way of distracting investigators, or because he’s a Trump an idiot?

  114. 114.

    Mary G

    More on the “consultant’s” fees apparently routed to Ivanka – people who worked on two projects say there weren’t any consultants:

    On the failed hotel deal in Azerbaijan, which was plagued by suspicions of corruption, a Trump Organization lawyer told The New Yorker the company was blameless because it was merely a licenser and had no substantive role, adding, “We did not pay any money to anyone.” Yet, the tax records for three Trump L.L.C.s involved in that project show deductions for consulting fees totaling $1.1 million that were paid to someone.

    In Turkey, a person directly involved in developing two Trump towers in Istanbul expressed bafflement when asked about consultants on the project, telling The Times there was never any consultant or other third party in Turkey paid by the Trump Organization. But tax records show regular deductions for consulting fees over seven years totaling $2 million.

    Daddy’s little girl got some ‘splaining to do. I wonder if Uday and Qusay knew she was getting more than them?

  116. 116.

    Brachiator

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Or the employee truck driver who, thanks to “tax reform” can no longer deduction any of their expenses from being on the road and now owes $5K instead of getting a modest refund. The job, income, and expenses didn’t change but the taxes did. Yeah, that guy isn’t going to like Trump too much.

    Strangely, a number of taxpayers don’t connect the dots that lead back to Trump. They stop at blaming the IRS, and not the GOP Congress and Trump, who are responsible for the new tax laws.

    And hell, even some business reporters omitted or downplayed how the Democrats were totally excluded from any participation or discussion in the drafting the new tax law, but were then expected to vote for it in the name of bipartisanship.

  117. 117.

    cain

    @Raoul Paste: 

    One of his lawyers is apparently claiming this is all fake news

    Make him say it under oath – and then have the IRS verify the claims. If they yes it is the same then throw this lawyer in jail – getting rid of some of his counsel people will make him a sitting duck.

  118. 118.

    Mary G

    @Ken: Dean Baquet has a editor’s side piece up saying they won’t reveal their sources, but the information was obtained legally. Third Lady jumping ship because she wants in on a book deal telling all now that hubs is in hot water and likely to lose big Nov. 3?

  120. 120.

    frosty

    @zhena gogolia: I had the same feeling last October. Can’t remember what the news was, but I emailed a friend that it felt like when the dam broke for Watergate. I need to send her an apology I guess.

  121. 121.

    counterfactual

    While we’re talking about how this news is received by voters, I’m interested in how it’s received by Donnie’s creditors.

  123. 123.

    L85NJGT

    @Mary G: 

    Rudy should have retired to Florida. He’d be bumming around beachie bars, regaling them with endless tales of 9/11 for free drinks.

  125. 125.

    Jeffro

    @Mary G:Another, more legally perilous possibility is that the fees were a way to transfer assets to his children without incurring a gift tax.

    Just like Fred trump did with trumpov!

  128. 128.

    Jeffro

    @germy: they need go no further than Don Jr’s statement that “they get all the financing they need out of Russia”.

    It is and always was there, for those with eyes to see…

  130. 130.

    clay

    I was wondering when these things would leak.  Frankly, I would have thought it would happen a long time ago, but perhaps they were timing it for maximum damage?

    Where does the Times say it got them?

  132. 132.

    Kathleen

    @Mary G:  Nah, this is just the place holder story until they resurrect Hillary Clinton’s Emails – Part The Deaux. I think NYT political team is in withdrawal because they can’t find a reason to cite Hillary Clinton’s emails. I think that’s why they’ve been so testy on Twitter lately.

  133. 133.

    Jeffro

    @Brachiator:The tax returns that Mr. Trump has long fought to keep private tell a story fundamentally different from the one he has sold to the American public.

    this is everything.

    What’s he going to do?  Pat himself on the back publicly for paying jack shit?  He’s done that before but…$750???  Admit he sucks as a businessman?  Explain how he’s going to pay off the $300M+ he owes, very soon?

    Y’all want someone like that as president*, red America?  Oooookay.

  134. 134.

    debbie

    @Brachiator:

    For businesses, he declares bankruptcy. For himself, he constructs net operating losses (are they still called that?). I don’t remember the year, but it got out that in a year when he filed a NOL of $90 billion, he reportedly paid himself $50 million.

  137. 137.

    clay

    @frosty: Last October would have been the Ukraine bribery scandal coming to light.  And yeah, that was a big one.  It got him impeached AND inoculated Joe Biden against a whole lot of bullshit.

  138. 138.

    frosty

    @zhena gogolia: Hope you’re right! I’m not going to email my friends who aren’t paying Balloon Juice obsessive amounts of attention though.

    I couldn’t survive this shitshow without everyone here.

  139. 139.

    Jeffro

    @Emma from FL: amen

    Bit by bit, 46% support for trumpov became 42% support, which is tens of millions of voters who flipped without ever having to enter a Midwestern diner.

    I’ll say this for the (disgusting orange moron piece of shit) guy: he moved America off its 50-50 deadlock, that’s for sure.

    Hey GOP tell you what: agree in writing now to abolish the Electoral College and we won’t make you walk coast to coast, tarred and feathered and hit with Cheeto dust, on or about Jan 20th 2021

  140. 140.

    Kay

    It’s funny because I’ve suspected for a while they do the live events to funnel campaign dollars to his “businesses”. There’s something desperately revenue producing about that campaign- the constant demands for money, the hinky finance filings where it’s all weirdly round numbers or “99” to avoid additional reporting limits. The whole thing is a fiction.

  141. 141.

    frosty

    @clay: Ah ha! Thanks, that was it. An impeachable offense, just like Watergate. Without the R senators who took their oaths seriously, dammit.

  142. 142.

    Nutmeg again (formerly MoxieM)

    @WaterGirl: But evidently he’s paid taxes in Turkey & the Philippines for licensing and etc? Sketchy as hell. I mean, some of us knew that already, but maybe, just maybe, the info will penetrate some numbskulls.

  143. 143.

    Another Scott

    @ema: Of course, but something something Article 2 says I can do anything I want something something, so pound sand.

    Or, rules are for Democrats.

    :-/

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  144. 144.

    JeffH

    @Wyatt Salamanca: It’s not the hard core fans we can do anything about. It’s the “I’ve always voted Republican but am queasy about Trump” folks. We get 1 or 2 percent to switch, that could flip some states and maybe some downballot races.

  146. 146.

    Feathers

    Ouch. Someone on the Twitters just pointed out that over the last 15 years, Trump paid more for sex than he did in taxes. (@JJT1006)

  150. 150.

    different-church-lady

    See, this is all terribly fascinating: just the increase in my tax burden alone created by tax reform is 2/3rd’s of Trump’s entire tax bill.

  151. 151.

    different-church-lady

    This also makes it quite clear that one return that was leaked a few years ago was leaked by Trump’s people: they leaked the one return where he paid big taxes.

  152. 152.

    Jim Appleton

    @Kay:

     

    This.

     

    IDJT never wanted to be president, he wanted the grift of running, without planning for the indictments.

     

    Once the fucking dog caught the tire, his MO has been all about hoovering up while hoping beyond hope that no one will notice he’s a fraud.

  153. 153.

    Fair Economist

    @johnnybuck:

    We knew he was broke

    A lot of people *thought* it but we didn’t *know*. Median opinion was that he did have a lot of money, but a lot, lot less than the $10 billion he claimed.

    Now we really *know* he’s broke.

  154. 154.

    Suzanne

    I never really felt good about my financial acumen, but I am doing better than the president.

    I am as cynical as they come about thinking that he really could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters….. but this seems like a big thing, right? I can’t tell anymore. I mean, to me, they all feel like big things. But…. this feels bonkers.

  156. 156.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: I can’t keep track of it all– who can?– but isn’t there still an unaccounted for $20M from the inauguration fund? My personal hobby-horse is that’s how they paid off Melania

  157. 157.

    CCL

    Looks as Sen Murphy, Booker, Schatz and crew have raised more than 235,000 for MJ in Texas this evening.  Hope I did the embed correctly.

    Update: $235,981.

    We can hit $300K by the end of the night but it’s going to be close.

    Did we mention MJ did 3 tours in Afghanistan. Had her helicopter shot down. And though she doesn’t need a reason for her killer tats – they cover her shrapnel wounds. https://t.co/cQMpahULih
    — Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) September 27, 2020

  158. 158.

    Casey Collins

    Of course, we know businesses write off a lot of things, however, to pay $750 in income taxes at billionaire level, is absolutely unheard of.  I personally, have been paying taxes on my earnings every year.  I cannot deduct anything and pay what I deem a fair share or more of taxes both at the state and local level.  (I make peanuts)

    I almost considered voting to reelect him ONLY because he will be so disruptive if he does not win.  I have changed my mind – I am not voting for him.  period….nothing will change my mind.  I am also afraid of the wake of his departure is going to look like the last recession – when Bush left.  AND if he stays four more years imagine what the deficits will look like then….He is NOT a good businessman at all.  Billionaires also have charitable foundations and give money away.

  160. 160.

    Another Scott

    @ema: OpenSecrets has the forms for 2016.  It looks like it’s form OGE 278e.  The signature certifies it is complete and correct “to the best of my knowledge”.  It doesn’t mention penalties.

    Oh well.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  161. 161.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    Biden should be able to provoke a meltdown in the debates over this.

    Oh, dude, this is *TRUMP*. I don’t think any provocation will be necessary :-).

  163. 163.

    tokyokie

    @Fair Economist:

    A lot of people *thought* it but we didn’t *know*. Median opinion was that he did have a lot of money, but a lot, lot less than the $10 billion he claimed.

    Of course, a lot of his “wealth” is derived from his absurd valuation of the Trump brand, when the actual value of his crap name has sunk to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

  164. 164.

    trnc

    @Marcopolo:

    Joe Biden – $3,742,974
    Kamala Harris – $516,469
    Bernie Sanders – $343,882
    Elizabeth Warren – $268,484

    Donald Trump – $750

    See, the problem with Democrats is they actually want to fund government..

    I hope Joe does not miss the opportunity the Hillary did – namely, to say to DT, “Our military and first responders are paid from tax revenues. I’m proud to pay the taxes that support them. If you loved them as much as you say, you’d help pay for them. If everyone lied on their taxes like you do, we wouldn’t have a military.”

  165. 165.

    Burnspbesq

    @Marcopolo:

    ‘it’s not unusual for well-managed commercial real estate to throw off excess deductions AND positive cash flow—for a while. But not indefinitely.

  166. 166.

    Groucho48

    Bloomberg should buy up all Trump’s debt and tell Trump–pay up on time or I’ll take everything you own. Or, resign, now, and the debt will go away.

  167. 167.

    Aleta

    The people telling us about Barrett’s “brilliance,” and “open-minded commitment to treating others with respect, ” about her “love of neighbor” and “honesty and integrity (in) her work,”  haven’t explained why such a person (who is “not at all ideological”)  would be willing and eager to pose with a corrupt, dangerously narcissistic cheater and con artist who expects allegiance from his appointees.

    What kind of person accepts a nomination from a president indifferent to the country’s security and to citizen deaths, who lies constantly and exploits the office for as much money as he can grab?    Only a person whose hunger for power is greater than her respect for life, a fellow megalomaniac who lies and conceals who she is.

  170. 170.

    Kay

    @Aleta:

    I’m reconciled to the power grab. What I object to is them insisting I celebrate it. I wouldn’t do it to them if the tables were turned. They would be mad and I would understand that and not fucking WHINE about how I deserve more.

    Incredibly, they’re not just bad losers. They’re bad winners too. Why is our job to validate the choices they make? Proceed with the rubberstamping but stop insisting the majority of the country who oppose it make them feel better about themselves. Not my job.

  171. 171.

    Burnspbesq

    @Mary G:

    ‘Actually it’s Daddy who has the ‘splainin’ to do. I smell a false gift tax return, or maybe a gift tax return that should have been filed but wasn’t.

  172. 172.

    debbie

    @tokyokie:

    I listened to an interview with a Forbes editor last week on Fresh Air. He thought the rumored wealth was an overstatement, and then said he believed it was at $2 billion. I’d love to know what he’s thinking at the moment.

  173. 173.

    Chris Johnson

    What I love is that he calls it ‘fake news’.

    That’s the tell that it’s fuckin’ real as, um… death and taxes?

    I think much like Capone, this one does the serious damage. Twitter seems to be blowing up over it. It seems like if people pay more than $750, that’s seven-fifty DOLLARS in taxes, and then they find that Trump paid seven-fifty DOLLARS (never mind getting tens of millions in refunds due to trickery and bullshit!) while they paid real money and maybe got audited and had to cough up hundreds more dollars or be absolutely screwed and possibly jailed… gee, it seems people lose their minds over their own little selves paying more than Donald Trump, that year.

    Warren’s good on this. She’s pointing out Trump is not alone in this. Quite a lot of you also paid more than the entire corporation General Electric paid in corporate taxes, all year. That was also close to nothing, same deal: GE paid maybe a few hundred bucks, if that. You personally? Maybe you were asked to pay a bit more.

    More than Donald Trump, or the General Electric Corporation. For the year.

    Tumbrels seem in order.

  174. 174.

    Yutsano

    @Kay: Dollars to doughnuts his campaign never gets audited. Things like this are going to get swept under the rug because there will be other more immediate crimes that will need to be pursued first. But I remember an obscure story a few months back saying that someone in Treasury (most likely Mnuchin although the person is never named) was interfering with his mandatory audit. It’s all to the same point: everything is for the protection of the Oval Office Occupier. There’s a big why there. Someone in the snooze media should look into that.

  176. 176.

    Kay

    @Aleta:

    If Biden wins what she’s looking at is a specific public rejection of her ideology and appointment to that court.

    And she doesn’t care. We’re getting her far Right ideology anyway. I’m supposed to thank this person for this? I mean, talk about entitlement.

    It’s never enough. Grabbing the seat isn’t enough. We’re now ordered to make them feel better about it.

  178. 178.

    Kay

    @Yutsano:

    It’s interesting though, as an approach to prosecuting him because it’s a set of rules he didn’t get around as a private person and the penalties are real- people go to prison. Look at the people who were in and around that campaign- is it four felons now? Bannon now has an entirely new scandal for stealing money from elderly Trump supporters for some “gold” bullshit. It would be shocking if they didn’t steal campaign funds. All that money flowing in. Millions and millions and millions, for years. It is probably the most lucrative Trump enterprise ever.

    They have utter contempt for all rules and laws because they think they’re so smart- imagine how they felt about campaign finance rules. They think the money is theirs.

  179. 179.

    Burnspbesq

    @Chris Johnson:

    GE’s zero is more likely than Trump’s to be legit. They get massive credits against their US tax bill .for taxes they pay outside the US. There can be, and will be, extensive discussions with tax authorities around the world about transfer pricing (how income and deductions from inter-company transactions get allocated), but TP is such an inexact science that there is plenty of room for good-faith disagreement.

  180. 180.

    Brachiator

    @Casey Collins:

    Of course, we know businesses write off a lot of things, however, to pay $750 in income taxes at billionaire level, is absolutely unheard of.

    Not necessarily the case. Still, it’s good if Trump’s tax returns stir up controversy.

  181. 181.

    Chris Johnson

    @Burnspbesq: Let’s say ‘more legit’ and leave it at that? I won’t argue that.

    I would suggest that if you’re GE, yes you can hire lawyers and lobbyists and arrange to pay no corporate taxes, but also if you are GE you can in fact afford to pay some corporate taxes.

    Being more legit than Donald Trump’s finances is not in fact the highest of bars :D

  183. 183.

    catclub

    @Litlebritdifrnt: 

    The fantasy that he is a billionaire is a joke.

    on all of us.

    Also, as long as he is president he does not have to pay on loans. Except if he stiffs Deutsche Bank they will give away his tax forms to the NYT.

  184. 184.

    catclub

    @Burnspbesq: ‘it’s not unusual for well-managed commercial real estate to throw off excess deductions AND positive cash flow—for a while. But not indefinitely.

     

    Strategic lying on depreciation?

  185. 185.

    Brachiator

    @Aleta:

    What kind of person accepts a nomination from a president indifferent to the country’s security and to citizen deaths, who lies constantly and exploits the office for as much money as he can grab?

    A lot of these people are zealots who think that they are rescuing the country from godless secularism. They see Trump as an imperfect vessel of God’s will. So his corruption doesn’t really matter.

    Other right wingers just want the power grab opportunity that Trump is giving them.

  186. 186.

    catclub

    @trnc: If everyone lied on their taxes like you do, we wouldn’t have a military.”

     

    This seems like a pretty good argument to encourage non-payment of taxes.

  187. 187.

    Burnspbesq

    @Chris Johnson:

    but also if you are GE you can in fact afford to pay some corporate taxes.

    Especially now that the US rate is lower than a number of our major trading partners. I had well over a thousand billable hours in 2018 realigning international tax structuring to bring income back to the US.

  188. 188.

    Brachiator

    @Chris Johnson:

    I would suggest that if you’re GE, yes you can hire lawyers and lobbyists and arrange to pay no corporate taxes, but also if you are GE you can in fact afford to pay some corporate taxes.

    Again, no one, individual or corporation is obligated to pay taxes and forego deductions that they are entitled to.

  189. 189.

    Burnspbesq

    @catclub:

    ‘the polite term is “cost segregation.” Any building is full of stuff that can fully legitimately get assigned to asset classes with shorter class lives (bigger deductions over a shorter period of time) than the general 39-1/2 year life for rental real estate. If you can pull, for example, a million bucks worth of alarms and security cameras out of the 39-½ year class and depreciate them over five years, you increase the deduction in years one through five from approximately $25k to $200k. But in years six through 39, the deduction is zero.

  190. 190.

    Sally

    I said on this here almost top 10,000 blog a few years ago, that the Financial Times reported (about fifteen years ago) trump was probably worth, at best, about $30 million.

    Sorry for the appalling sentence structure.

  192. 192.

    Brachiator

    @Burnspbesq:

    ‘the polite term is “cost segregation.” Any building is full of stuff that can fully legitimately get assigned to asset classes with shorter class lives (bigger deductions over a shorter period of time) than the general 39-1/2 year life for rental real estate.

    Are Trump properties residential or commercial? Useful life for residential property is 27.5 years and 39 years for commercial.

    I agree with your larger point. Could Trump structure deals so that properties are appraised for higher values for depreciation purposes? Inflate costs of improvements?

    People also do dodgy stuff with Section 1031 exchanges.

  194. 194.

    tokyokie

    @Kay:

    It’s never enough. Grabbing the seat isn’t enough. We’re now ordered to make them feel better about it.

    I read something not long ago to the effect that the South didn’t merely want the North to accept slavery as a necessary institution, the South also wanted the North to acknowledge the South’s virtuousness in maintaining the institution. Or, to put it in cinematic terms, toward the end of Django Unchained, after Leonardo DiCaprio has gotten the best of Christoph Waltz in securing Kerry Washington’s freedom and then insists that they both participate in some genteel ceremony, Waltz shoots him with a derringer instead. (And the bleeding from the boutonnière was lifted from Sergio Corbuci’s Il mercenario.)

  195. 195.

    Suzanne

    @WaterGirl: Oh God, I hope so.

    I want this downfall to be absolutely humiliating. An absolute sideshow. So bad that the shame drenches every Trump voter forever.

  196. 196.

    WaterGirl

    @Suzanne: Definitely a lot of reasons for Melania to want him to lose.  If she has an ironclad pre-nup, and it says nothing about not releasing tax returns, this could be her exit strategy. Or vlad’s, depending on how close she is to him.

    Otherwise, if he wins, she is stuck with 4 more years.

  197. 197.

    Planetjanet

    The Biden campaign already has stickers in its online store that say “I paid more in taxes than Donald Trump”. Just perfect.

  199. 199.

    Suzanne

    @WaterGirl: I hope this is embarrassing. Like pants-shitting embarrassing. For all of them. Orange, Mrs. Orange, fucken JARED and all the dumb, basic-as-fuck kids, Kellyanne Conway, Barr, McConnell, Lindsey Graham….

    Like, I want it to be so bad that, in fifty years, even kids will hear those names and it will be a most grievous insult…. to be simultaneously a bad person and totally fucken dumb as a rock.

  201. 201.

    E

    @Mary G: So what? Trump is loosing. Trump needs to pull from Biden voters or independents. This story does not help him in that cause. The story doesn’t need to help Biden convert Trump voters. Biden is winning. The story does however make it much more difficult for Trump to add voters, which he has to do to win.

  202. 202.

    Heywood J.

    I’m not generally a fan of the North Koreans’ policy of making three generations of a family be punished for the sins of the grandfather, as it were. But in the case of this goatse of a family, you could reasonably make an exception. Their spirit animal is the remora. It’s probably on their coat of arms, either that or a blood-engorged tick.

Comments are closed.