Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

Disagreements are healthy; personal attacks are not.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

If you voted for Trump, you don’t get to speak about ethics, morals, or rule of law.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

Roe is not about choice. It is about freedom.

The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it is not glory.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

If ‘weird’ was the finish line, they ran through the tape and kept running.

They are not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

You are here: Home / Elections / Biden-Harris 2020 / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Chugging Along

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Chugging Along

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Sound on!


Sounds like Wall Street has made its choice:

On the other hand…

Reader Interactions

235Comments

  4. 4.

    debbie

    I don’t think Goldman Sachs is the only one saying a blue win would be better for the financial markets. As Joe might say, this is a big fucking deal.

  6. 6.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Isaac Chotiner@IChotiner
    I’ve spent about an hour trying to decide which of these four tweets is the worst. The last one is the obvious answer because it was an unscientific poll, but the second one is my choice, because of its take on why Trump is popular.

    Hey Ross Barkan, my 24 ounce framing hammer would like to have a conversation with you.

  7. 7.

    Baud

    Has anyone listened to Hillary’s new podcast, You and Me Both (great title)? I don’t do podcasts, but he first few episodes have has Rev. Barber, Stacey Abrams, and Kamala, so I’m intrigued.

  8. 8.

    hueyplong

    There is no bigger deal for me than learning Goldman publicly indicates an economy-based preference for Biden.  Others pose or aspire to be the Dark Star badass killers in the economy.  They’re the real thing.

    They’ve decided to monetize Trump, which has typically been their internal phrasing for cashing out on an asset and leaving its husk by the side of the road

    This makes me something just shy of giddy.

  9. 9.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    Zuckerberg really does need the tumbrel and guillotine treatment.  Just when I think the bar is set low enough, he manages to slither under it.  In that, he’s just like the Coward-in-Chief’s (mal)administration.

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    @debbie: Recently, known socialist outfit Moody’s Analytics said a Dem sweep would trigger a larger rebound in terms of jobs and markets.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    A wingnut letter-to-the-editor writer in our local paper shares this astonishing intelligence:

    Not wearing masks is, for many, a political statement and the partisan equivalent to “shooting the bird” to the elite press and progressive liberals.

    No shit, Sherlock.

  13. 13.

    MagdaInBlack

    My dear friend, a hairstylist who voted trump because ” he’s a good business man” is now voting Biden. Another friend tells me her Evangelical, Florida based, always voted R mom, is now voting Biden.

     

    @OzarkHillbilly: Ya, having spent most of my life ( ok, all my life) outside the “educated elite bubble”  I’ve only heard that kind of talk from the drunk at the end of the bar. Who is this Ross guy anyway?

  16. 16.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    I have a friend, I’ve known him since he was a teenager (he’s about 15 years younger than me) who is one of Satan’s Representatives On Earth, aka a Goldman-Sachs VP (he’s done well for himself), who I talked to a couple of weeks ago.  He basically said the same thing they’re saying now in public.  He went further saying that they’d be okay with revised financial regs, etc., ala going somewhere down the road Warren has talked about because they know the end result will be greater stability and predictability.

    As he put it, we print money as it is but the last 3 years have been a nightmare that they don’t consider sustainable.  And they know a Biden Administration, while most likely doing things to their sector that decades ago they’d scream about, means a better strategic picture over the next decade.

  20. 20.

    Geminid

    @MagdaInBlack: trump is his own worst enemy. I don’t expect large scale defections of his core supporters, but of his soft supporters, he’s managing to alienate 1% here and 1% there, and that adds up.

  22. 22.

    Splitting Image

    I’m encouraged by Goldman-Sachs’ observations on Trump and Biden.

    I think that if more companies realized that they are better off with customers who are able to afford their products than they are with crooks on their boards looting their assets, our whole economic outlook might improve.

  23. 23.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @debbie: They’re not. Moody’s Analytics has said the same, and so has The Wharton School of Business. Y’know, the fancy Eyevee League school that gave Trump his MBA

  25. 25.

    prufrock

    @Geminid: I’ve already seen two old wingnut friends I keep around on social media as canaries start talking about voting third party.

    Drip, drip.

  26. 26.

    Shalimar

    Mark Zuckerberg is not thinking clearly.  Outrage against Facebook skyrockets if Trump is declared the winner.  He’s a fool if he thinks he won’t be going to the guillotines in the first wave.

  30. 30.

    Another Scott

    CNN: McConnell moves to protect vulnerable Republicans on health care after Schumer’s rare effort to force vote.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/health-care-vote-senators/index.html

    Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell scheduled a procedural vote on a Republican bill — authored by vulnerable North Carolina Sen. Thom Tillis — that they say would maintain the protections for pre-existing conditions should the Supreme Court toss out the ACA. That would give GOP senators something they can point to as evidence they want to continue those protections and also allow them to vote against and defeat the Democratic bill Thursday.

    The Tillis measure stalled Wednesday night on a strictly party line vote, 47 to 47, with Democrats voting against it and Republicans voting to advance it. While Democrats couldn’t get the 51 votes required to kill the bill, it ultimately isn’t going anywhere. It would need 60 votes to pass, which it would not be able to get in the narrowly divided chamber where the GOP has a 53-47 edge.

    Democrats call McConnell’s move a “show vote,” arguing that under close scrutiny past bills introduced by Republicans to demonstrate their support for keeping protections for pre-existing conditions fall short of that promise.

    “Senate Republicans are once again shopping a do-nothing bill to fool Americans into thinking their loved ones with pre-existing conditions will be protected. The only people covered by this bill are Senate Republicans,” said Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia.

    Good, good. Make them squirm and stay in session. And burn the fig leaf that they actually care about people.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  32. 32.

    trnc

    Luntz on MJ right now saying that his focus group almost all said they were turned off by both candidates and not planning to vote. Also, some of them apparently think DT is unfit but Biden is “too extreme.” Pretty sure he couldn’t have found a less informed group of people.

    Interesting: Luntz said Biden came over to Luntz after he had a stroke and said some very kind things, and Luntz really appreciated that. Might explain Luntz being less wingnutty these days.

  33. 33.

    SFAW

    @Betty Cracker:

    A wingnut letter-to-the-editor writer in our local paper shares this astonishing intelligence:

    Not wearing masks is, for many, a political statement and the partisan equivalent to “shooting the bird” to the elite press and progressive liberals.

    No shit, Sherlock.

    I think there could be a (hopefully large) RWMF market for a “Cleek’s Mask.” [Masks with variations of “Fuck you, liberals” printed on them.] The key: RWMF heads would a-splode, a la Norman:

    “But if I wear the mask I am telling the liberals to fuck off, but if I wear the mask, I am doing what the liberals want, but I would be telling them to fuck off, but I would be doing what they want …”

    Of course, the fatal flaw would be expecting them to understand logical behavior.

     

    PS: Apropos of nothing in particular: Norman Lloyd will (FSM willing) turn 106 less than a week after Election Day.

  34. 34.

    trnc

    @prufrock:

    I’ve already seen two old wingnut friends I keep around on social media as canaries start talking about voting third party.

    Drip, drip.

    Any idea which state they’re in? “Happy Birthday” to them?

  35. 35.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker:  Yup.  We’ve known this from history, if people were willing to actually look at it.

    Plus, the fact that the economy cratered when workers stayed home starting in March showed everyone that it isn’t the MotU that makes the economy go, it’s people buying and working and saving and traveling and going to school and all the rest.  When people got no money, the world stops.

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  37. 37.

    SFAW

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    Zuckerberg really does need the tumbrel and guillotine treatment.  Just when I think the bar is set low enough, he manages to slither under it.  In that, he’s just like the Coward-in-Chief’s (mal)administration.

    McConnell: “Ah’m goin’ to do mah damnedest to destroy American democracy”

    Zuckerberg: “Hold my beer.”

  39. 39.

    SFAW

    @trnc:

    Pretty sure he couldn’t have found a less informed group of people.

    He could listen to NPR. They seem to be able to root them out.

  42. 42.

    Another Scott

    @trnc: NPR was both-sidesing the hell out of the debate yesterday.  ATC, I think, was interviewing 3 people, including a belligerently stupid “undecided” woman who didn’t like that Biden wasn’t specific enough about his plans.  As if she wanted him to show up in her home ala a Geico commercial and explain everything to her.

    No pushback at all from the radio person, of course.

    Grrr…….

    Cheers,

    Scott.

  44. 44.

    debbie

    @Baud:

    That the financial markets supported Trump’s election? Of course they did. Why do you need a cite? Do you know of one that supported Clinton?

  46. 46.

    SFAW

    @Another Scott:

    “On Point” (NPR) had their “weekly voter roundtable” thing yesterday. It was four women from one family — a mother and her three 18-24 year old daughters. The mother — a black woman married to a white man — claimed she’s been a Democrat for her entire adult life “but I’m not sure about Biden because reasons.” She lived in Indiana for a long time, they just moved near Atlanta, she and her daughters talked about racism they experience (more in IN than in GA), and she’s still not sure about Trump.

  49. 49.

    Baud

    @debbie:

    I don’t know of any financial firm that made any kind of endorsement whatsoever.  I’d imagine individual partners in those firms supported one candidate or the other.

  52. 52.

    TS (the original)

    @Another Scott:

    When people got no money, the world stops.

    From Charles Pierce (often)

    the shebeen’s First Law of Economics. To wit: Fck the Deficit. People got no jobs. People got no money.

  54. 54.

    Anya

    GOP pollster, Frank Luntz was on MSNBC taking about his focus group’ reaction to the debate. He said 6 were Clinton voters.

    First, I don’t understand how can anyone who voted for Clinton in 2016 be undecided. What happened in the last 3 years and 9-month to make them decide Trump deserves a chance? It just doesn’t make sense.

    second, if your reaction to the debate is that you won’t vote because you’re dissolution then you shouldn’t vote in the first place because you’re a moron. I don’t get these people.

  56. 56.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Rex ChapmanHorse racing@RexChapman
    Following several injuries Brazilian pianist João Carlos Martins lost the ability to move his fingers.

    But after more than 20-years of being unable to play — a pair of “bionic” gloves are bringing him back.

    He’s crying. I’m crying. You’re crying…

    Goddamn dust…

  57. 57.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I don’t think GS officially endorsed Trump, but GS partners stocked his cabinet (Mnuchin, Cohn, etc.), and it’s safe to assume the company has aggressively sought deregulation and favorable tax treatment for decades via means fair and foul, just like its peers. Of course they’re at least in part responsible for unsustainable levels of wealth inequality, even if they’re belatedly recognizing the danger that poses to their own precious hides.

  58. 58.

    Princess

    I’m a little concerned that the Pence/Harris debate is going to draw some of those votes back to Trump, even if Harris, from our point of view, “wins.” Pence is a great liar, especially when he is pretending to have compassion, and he will give a license to those GOP women who “dislike both sides now” to come out and vote for Trump. That’s what they want. They want t be able to give themselves permission to vote for Trump. Trump took that permission away in the last debate but Pence is capable of giving it back.

  60. 60.

    sanjeevs

    RT make extensive use of vox pops/focus groups to push their agenda.

    When Brexit was being pushed through in Britain, the BBC suddenly started using vox pops extensively and they seemed to only be able to find angry Brexiters in a country that was evenly divided.

  61. 61.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Princess: I’m not concerned at all. Jus’ sayin’, if they are looking for an excuse to vote for trump, they were always gonna find one.

  62. 62.

    TS (the original)

    @Princess:

     those GOP women who “dislike both sides now” to come out and vote for Trump.

    They are always going to vote for trump & are just unhappy that the debate didn’t validate their choice. This will be proven when Pence gives them their validation

    Edit: @OzarkHillbilly:  snap

  63. 63.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker: I had a long comment that got eated.  I don’t dispute that GS’s business is a force for conservative economic policies.  But the original comment was that they needed to take responsibility for something when they accurately opined that the economy would be better off under Dems.  I was trying to understand what that something was.  Debbie suggested that it was their support for Trump in 2016, so I asked about the evidence of that support.

  64. 64.

    Splitting Image

    @Anya:

    First, I don’t understand how can anyone who voted for Clinton in 2016 be undecided. What happened in the last 3 years and 9-month to make them decide Drumpf deserves a chance? It just doesn’t make sense.

    A good guess would be that these are people who try to vote for the winner. Clinton looked like the eventual winner right up until the day of the election, so they voted for her.

    Since then, Trump’s long string of political victories (heh) has convinced them that he might pull it off no matter what the polls say, so they are hedging their bets for now.

    You know how dumb Donald Trump is? Well, these people are dumber than that.

  65. 65.

    Jeffro

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: we print money as it is but the last 3 years have been a nightmare that they don’t consider sustainable.  And they know a Biden Administration, while most likely doing things to their sector that decades ago they’d scream about, means a better strategic picture over the next decade

    “We’d prefer an administration that might actually have a shot at containing the next pandemic.”

  66. 66.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    Steve Innskeep and Scott Detrow seemed giddy over Biden’s train tour this morning on NPR…it’s the first time I’ve seen evidence of the national press giving a Democratic candidate for POTUS style points in quite some time. I take it as another small sign that maybe we’ll get the edge on those intangible “who would you rather have a beer with” metrics, which, considering, I mean, who would you rather have a beer with is a question I’d love the press to focus on.

  67. 67.

    Eunicecycle

    @OzarkHillbilly: I saw those yesterday and man did it piss me off. I grew up working class and my parents taught me manners. To think working class people are oafs and jackasses is so condescending.

  68. 68.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @Anya: I really don’t understand that focus group. Their descriptions of Trump were pretty much uniformly negative, and one lady said he seemed like a crackhead…they were mostly complimentary towards Biden…yet who should we vote for, Mr. Crazypants or the nice guy? We still can’t make up our minds!

  69. 69.

    TS (the original)

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    who would you rather have a beer with

    My first thought was that trump would charge me for the beer – at his club prices.

    The media, however, seems to be thinking about future access to the white house & like Rasmussen polls is moving to be on the winning side. It was a long time coming.

  70. 70.

    trnc

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: If GS say outright publicly that they believe tighter regulations would still be more profitable than the completely insane and haphazard policies of the DT Admin, then MAYBE the leftier than thou crowd would still vote for Biden. Otherwise, it sounds like ratfucking designed to make people think Joe is the candidate for the 1%.

  71. 71.

    Jeffro

    @Princess:I’m a little concerned that the Pence/Harris debate is going to draw some of those votes back to Trump, even if Harris, from our point of view, “wins.” Pence is a great liar, especially when he is pretending to have compassion.

    I hear you, but I doubt too many folks vote based on the VP choice, much less how the VPs do in their debate.  If they were going to vote against Biden/Harris just because Harris is Black and/or female, they’re going to do that anyway.

    My only concern for Harris is that she not get “Kaine-ed”, ie, don’t get flabbergasted when Pence straight-up lies about anything & everything.  Kaine went into the 2016 VP debate expecting to have an actual debate, Pence rolled out lie after lie with a straight face, and Kaine never really found his footing.  I don’t want that to be folks’ impression of Harris, and I’m 95% sure she and her team are already prepared.

  72. 72.

    Joe Falco

    @Another Scott: There was another interview NPR  did before that with 3 “undecided” with each one having different pet issues or certain backgrounds for flavor (a social conservative, a veteran, etc.). When asked about BLM and the protests, all three of them said they had done research about the movement to be familiar with the issues and concerns yadda yadda. But when asked about Biden, they said they didn’t know what he stood for (the old canard that Democrats are only running on being against Trump, not anything else was mentioned). How these people can say they did research on anything and then go on air to admit your ignorance of the candidate’s platform tells me all I need to know that NPR sure knows how to pick these “undecided” possible voters.

  74. 74.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @TS (the original):

    They are always going to vote for trump & are just unhappy that the debate didn’t validate their choice. This will be proven when Pence gives them their validation

    Baud refers to this as The Great Excusening: when millions of mostly white voters who do not consider themselves right wingers search for excuses why they just cannot join Democrats in opposing fascism.

    I have another friend, West Point grad, retired army, still works for Club Fed at Leavenworth in some national security stragetery group (Adam probably knows of the group).  Has never voted for a Dem in his life, never will.  He’s not a racist and is like the Lincoln Project folks in questioning Russia’s involvement in all things Trump.  Now votes glibertarian because he’s essentially a dumb ass.  Prime example of the Great Excusening.

    I contrast him with my friend the GS VP.  He at least started voting Dem in 08 and hasn’t changed since.  He quietly admits that he’s a minority in that regard among the other Satanic Representatives at GS.

  75. 75.

    trnc

    @SFAW: He could listen to NPR. They seem to be able to root them out.

    Yeah, they’ve sucked pretty hard most of the time since Bush managed to get some toadie installed as the CPB chair. Not sure if he still is, but that obviously paid lasting dividends for repubs. I put them up there with NYT as a so called liberal outlet that does everything it can to drive liberals away from dems.

  78. 78.

    trnc

    @Anya: First, I don’t understand how can anyone who voted for Clinton in 2016 be undecided.

    Yeah, it’s bizarre, but we shouldn’t assume only well informed candidates voted for Clinton. I think some people will literally vote regularly for opposite parties each time out of some sense of “balance.”

  80. 80.

    different-church-lady

    Mark Zuckerberg has told employees that Facebook is likely to fare better under Republicans

    Manipulating sociopath recognize manipulating sociopath.

  81. 81.

    Another Scott

    @debbie: I heard the teaser for it and was all

    NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE …

    There was no way I was going to listen to that.

    You have my sympathy!!  :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  83. 83.

    Eunicecycle

    @Another Scott: Any interviews with undecided voters causes me to change the channel. They are either lying or so uninformed they shouldn’t be voting anyway. As someone said above, they seem to want Joe to come to their house and explain his plans.

  84. 84.

    catclub

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: they were mostly complimentary towards Biden…yet who should we vote for, Mr. Crazypants or the nice guy? We still can’t make up our minds!

     

    as another person put it:  “undecided voters are morons. They don’t know ANYTHING. They cannot tie their shoes.”

  86. 86.

    germy

    Pope Francis has denied a request for an audience from Mike Pompeo, and the Vatican "accused the Secretary of State of trying to drag the Catholic Church into the U.S. presidential election." https://t.co/jkZWVFN9yu

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) October 1, 2020

    Pompeo was hoping for a good photo op.

  89. 89.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: Can’t speak for other commenters, but my hope is that GS and all the MOTUs learn the following lesson: their actions to secure benefits for themselves also affect the country that they need to remain strong and stable, if only so they can continue extracting profits from it. So, maybe they should take a look at ways they’ve wounded the golden goose and resolve not to kill it.

  90. 90.

    Another Scott

    @Eunicecycle: Yup.

    The woman I’m annoyed with said things like (roughly):

    Trump is horrible and rude and a bully.  But Biden wasn’t specific enough in his plans.

    “I don’t think either one of them are qualified to be president…” – pretty much verbatim.

    She’s like the kitchen table that Barney Frank tried to educate.

    I mean, it’s not internally consistent.  Biden was VP for 8 years.  He ran the Recovery Act.  He has been in the federal government for decades and done a reasonably good job.  He’s not a psychopath.  If she’s concerned about tone and example and qualifications, it’s not even a choice.  It’s obvious.

    Of course Biden’s qualified.

    But the interview was ridiculous.

    These reporters need to pin these people down and force them to choose.  Not treat them with kid gloves and all kinds of deference because they’re so very special and important.

    E.g. – “As you know, one of these two men will be taking the oath as president in January.  Nobody else.  You need to tell us, which one of these two comes closer to your views of where the country should go, or you need to leave.”

    Make them explain themselves.

    Otherwise, these “undecided voter” things are just a waste of air time at best, and free disinformation to attack our Democracy at worst.  NPR should not be giving free airtime to people who are trying to drive up apathy.

    Grr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  91. 91.

    germy

    People of Praise, a faith group, deletes mentions and photos of Barrett from its website

    WASHINGTON — A religious organization tied to Amy Coney Barrett, President Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, sought to erase all mentions and photos of her from its website before she meets with lawmakers and faces questions at her Senate confirmation hearings.

    Barrett, a federal appeals judge, has declined to publicly discuss her decades-long affiliation with People of Praise, a charismatic Christian group that opposes abortion and holds that men are divinely ordained as the “head” of the family and faith. Former members have said the group’s leaders teach that wives must submit to the will of their husbands. A spokesman for the organization has declined to say whether the judge and her husband, Jesse M. Barrett, are members.

  92. 92.

    lowtechcyclist

    No matter how awful you think they are, they’re worse:

    WASHINGTON — Federal law enforcement officials were directed to make public comments sympathetic to Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager charged with fatally shooting two protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin, according to internal Department of Homeland Security talking points obtained by NBC News.
    In preparing Homeland Security officials for questions about Rittenhouse from the media, the document suggests that they note that he “took his rifle to the scene of the rioting to help defend small business owners.”

  94. 94.

    satby

    @trnc: Middle of the road white people in suburbs who work in middle management, have IRAs or 401ks invested in the stock market and have identified as Republicans for a couple of generations outnumber the rose twitter left who would fall for an obvious conclusion being considered a ratfucking.

  96. 96.

    Tazj

    @Baud: I listened to the first episode while driving. After her father died, she received a lot of criticism from the press(surprise) because she began to talk about her spirituality and the bigger questions in life. She had to give a speech to a college shortly after her father’s death and she really didn’t want to but was persuaded to because many people were coming and she didn’t want to disappoint anyone.

    Apparently the press reaction was that she had no business talking about such things as First Lady.

  98. 98.

    Thor Heyerdahl

    @germy: From the article – this is so on-brand for the Trump cadre of idiots and their diplomacy. “…’Normally when you’re preparing these visits between high-level officials, you negotiate the agenda for what you are going to talk about privately, confidentially. It’s one of the rules of diplomacy,’ [Foreign Minister Archbishop Paul] Gallagher said…”

  101. 101.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @TS (the original): I’d pay for the beer if it was Biden. He wasn’t my first choice, or even second, among the primary candidates but he seems like a genuinely nice guy, and a fun guy to have a chat with. Drumpf? He’d have to do more than pay for the beer to get me to sit down with him.

  103. 103.

    TS (the original)

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    He’s not a racist

    If people have supported the GOP all their lives, then they may not be racist but they have supported racism. They just don’t like that trump says out loud what has been hidden for years.

  104. 104.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @trnc: Yes I generally feel this way about NPR, though I listen to Morning Edition most mornings (and yell at my radio in outrage fairly regularly) because I don’t want to turn on the TV over breakfast. The fact that they’re starting to cozy up to Biden is a sign that he’s winning but I doubt it continues past the election…but maybe Trump has finally taken the shine of the Republican party even amongst the national press corps. I doubt it but if anything could make that happen Trump is that thing.

  105. 105.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Another Scott: I let myself get dragged into a social media fight yesterday.  I usually avoid these things, but I had a moment of weakness.  It was a woman who was condescendingly explaining that Biden and Trump were not the only options and that there were other parties out there.  I stepped in with the fact that there are only two people with any chance of winning the next election.  I got told that I was like her sister, hateful and unwilling to listen to other points of view.  Stripped of names, this was my answer:

    I am sorry that you view my disagreement with you as being hateful. That being said, I understand your opinion; I simply think that treating your vote as a form of performative expression instead of a choice between the horrible and the imperfect is, to be frank, the height of unacknowledged privilege.

    She liked that comment – I don’t think she read past the pro forma apology.  She claimed that she had supported Buttigieg because of his competence, but couldn’t support Biden.  IMO she was never voting for a Dem and Pete was just her version of “I would vote for a  woman but not that woman.”

  106. 106.

    Falling Diphthong

    Michelle Obama:

    We can’t let him win by tuning out altogether. That’s what he wants.

    This is very much a deliberate strategy, one Steve Bannon calls “Flooding the zone with shit.” Get people exhausted from the endless ugly nonsense.

  108. 108.

    Hoodie

    @Betty Cracker: Goldman is a very large organization, so it’s not monolithic.  It does hire some extremely talented people; it also has an outsized number of money-obsessed sociopaths.  I have a client who worked there after serving as a naval officer, a tremendously nice and charismatic guy.  He said that he met an amazing number of brilliant people at Goldman, but he ultimately did not like the culture, namely, it lacked the sense of duty and purpose that he knew in the Navy.  He left and started a company with one of his Annapolis classmates.

  109. 109.

    International Mikey

    @trnc: Luntz has done so much damage to our political discourse over the past decade+ that I take anything he has to say with a grain of salt.  I was shocked to see him on MJ.  If nothing else, he’s an opportunist.

  110. 110.

    Marcopolo

    Good morning folks. At least 2 million votes have now been cast in the election. There are no numbers included for MO, where voting started 9 days ago and states typically lag a day in their reporting so it is probably a good deal more than that.

    Also, I liked this take on how to figure out who won Tuesday’s debate:

    well the debate showed off the president as a unhinged, petulant man child, raised joe biden $31.5 million online in just over 24 hours, registered 24,000 people to vote, and brought in 100,000 new campaign volunteers, and 60,000 new donors. so I think joe biden won!— Rob Flaherty (@Rob_Flaherty) October 1, 2020

  111. 111.

    mali muso

    The sun is shining, the sky is blue.  The ActBlue counter is $15 million higher than it was last night when I went to bed.  I’m going to get some more addresses for postcards and try to think positive thoughts.

    Oh, and happy birthday to President Carter!  I had the good fortune to meet him and his wife twice while serving in the Peace Corps.  Every time they visited Mali, they would ask the country director to invite all the volunteers in the area to come to the ambassador’s residence for a special meet and greet so they could thank us personally for our service.  He’s one of my heroes.

  114. 114.

    Marcopolo

    @Omnes Omnibus:  Yeah, there was a time when NPR was the background sound of my life.  Anyone remember back when Ray Suarez hosted Talk of the Nation?  Those were the days.  Shows with timely topics & great hosts who were knowledgeable & able to intelligently moderate call ins.  Diane Rehm also fit that mold.  I think the last program I listen to with any regularly now is Terri Gross.  If she has an interesting guest on now, though, I will go to her website instead of tuning into the local NPR station.

  115. 115.

    Immanentize

    @Falling Diphthong: But the question is, who does the “flood the zone with shit” strategy hurt the most?  For a few elections, it was certainly the Dems.  But this time. We are more motivated as a group over more issues than the Repubs.  So, like so much Trump has done — his first strategy is not working, but his people cannot change the underlying strategy.  Trump is losing.  His people are deciding to vote.  So the “fraud” argument has just been piled on top of the losing first strategy.  And that’s not really working either.

  116. 116.

    gene108

    @Tazj:

    I remember Hillary getting dragged by right-wingers for wanting to go by Hillary Rodham Clinton and not just Hillary Clinton.

    Got a lot of shit for trying to reclaim her family name.

    But now there’s Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and Amy Coney Barrett who are conservatives in good standing with the same goobers.

  119. 119.

    different-church-lady

    @Marcopolo: Around the turn of the century NPR fell in love with itself. Specifically, it fell in love with the sound of itself. So now anyone who can make that sound is good enough for them, no matter what the quality of the stuff behind that sound.

  123. 123.

    Kathleen

    @Baud: I heard the one with Barber and it was excellent.  It felt like it was over in no time and it left me wanting to hear more.

  125. 125.

    different-church-lady

    @Immanentize: “His people” are probably still voting for him. But the ones that aren’t really his but were seduced in 2016 have decided to get off his tilt-o-whirl.

  126. 126.

    ...now I try to be amused

    Malcolm Tucker is British — and fictional — but he knows the nature of “undecided” voters.

    The only ones watching [the debates] are going to be the pointless bastards who already know what they think.

    We need to get to the people who only hear the rumours. Bottom feeders who get their views via the quotes from the models in the Daily Star. Van drivers who guard their vast ignorance with concealed Stanley knives. Businessmen who like to expose their self-aggrandising cynicism to schoolgirls on the Thameslink. These dumb motherfuckers are the battlefield. Shitheels. Dunderheads. People who when you talk to them it’s like shouting through six pieces of double glazing. Potheads, cider drinkers, kids who don’t know who Thatcher was and think the NHS grew on a big fucking NHS tree. Wankers. People who count to 11 using their 10 fingers and their head and still get it wrong. This is who we have to get to via the debates. So we are going to have to shout extremely fucking loud.

    (Emphasis mine.)

  127. 127.

    different-church-lady

    @SFAW: I’m so old I can remember when people were going to be forced to vote for Trump because Biden was the scariest thing since Mao.

  128. 128.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    She claimed that she had supported Buttigieg because of his competence, but couldn’t support Biden.

    I freely admit that I didn’t follow Mayor Pete much, neither before nor during his campaign, so I have no idea whether he is as competent as she seems to think.

    But had I been the one “interacting” with her, I would have been sorely tempted to point her toward TBogg’s “Mumia sweatshirt” post of many years ago. You are a much more tolerant person than I.

  129. 129.

    Another Scott

    @Omnes Omnibus: Moments of weakness are important.  They’re often powerfully persuasive – the “Less is More” school of rhetoric.

    E.g. Davis ex Machina

    (What happened to that guy, anyway??)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  130. 130.

    Jay C

    @Another Scott:

    NPR was both-sidesing the hell out of the debate yesterday.  ATC, I think, was interviewing 3 people, including a belligerently stupid “undecided” woman who didn’t like that Biden wasn’t specific enough about his plans.  As if she wanted him to show up in her home ala a Geico commercial and explain everything to her.

    Thing is, barring the pandemic, Joe Biden would probably actually do it.

  134. 134.

    SFAW

    @Immanentize:

    But as Geminid said, 1% here, 1% there…..

    That should be all we need.

    So you freely admit that you want the Dems to cater to the One-Percenters! Elitist libtard! Thank FSM that Dear Leader is looking out for the little guy.

    Or is it little girls? I can never remember.

  135. 135.

    Jeffro

    @catclub:as another person put it:  “undecided voters are morons. They don’t know ANYTHING. They cannot tie their shoes.”

    Blair Erskine has a GREAT video up on Twitter where she plays a very dumb, self-absorbed undecided voter.  Still LOLing here ;)

  138. 138.

    Jeffro

    @Baud:  My quote: “Kaine went into the 2016 VP debate expecting to have an actual debate, Pence rolled out lie after lie with a straight face, and Kaine never really found his footing.”

    That’s “shitting on Kaine”?  Ye gods.  He’d say the same thing himself.

  140. 140.

    Ken

    @germy:

    More bad news from Rome, she met with the Pope
    She only got a rosary, a kindly word
    I wouldn’t say the Holy Father gave her the bird
    But papal decorations, never a hope
    Let’s hear it for the Rainbow Tour!

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: I was effectively a guest in someone else’s place and I thought that the bit I quoted was really insulting.  I am not sure that she got it though.  Can’t be helped.  I didn’t want to turn off any real waverers if I could avoid it.  Around that point, a self-confessed Nader 2000 person stepped in and said “Oh my god, honey, don’t do that.  I did and regretted it ever since,” or words to that effect.

  146. 146.

    Richard Guhl

    The most significant tweet here is not the ones of the opinions of rich, entitled jerks but the one showing Joe’s reception in Greensburg. That is huge.

    This is in what’s now deep red territory. Westmoreland county produced Trump’s winning margin in Pennsylvania, beating Clinton there by almost 60,000 votes. When Hillary made a similar foray into that region, maybe 50 people showed up. Given that this rally will get airplay on the Pittsburgh TV stations, reaching all of Southwestern PA, the show of support will boost Democratic turnout and depress that of the GOP. This is also good news for Dem. Representative, Conor Lamb, running for reelection in his red-leaning district.

  148. 148.

    Betty Cracker

    Speaking of Biden not being “specific enough about his plans” (according to a dumb lady quoted above), do y’all think Biden and Harris can get away with refusing to answer whether they’ll consider killing the filibuster and expanding the court — from now to Nov. 3?

    I perfectly understand their reluctance to answer those questions, but I saw a gleam in Jake Tapper’s eyes when he grilled Harris on it yesterday. She ably turned the subject back to the Republicans’ shameless power play. But I saw the dawning of a crusade.

    It’s so rare for a politician to say, “I’m not going to answer that question because you’ll focus on nothing else if I do and let the psychopathic president off the hook.” Kind of refreshing if you ask me, but I don’t know how it plays with “normies.”

    Maybe they could say something like, “If elected, we’ll review all of the options available under the Constitution and meet with Congressional leaders from both parties to discuss the situation, but it would be inappropriate and presumptuous to discuss it now” or something like that? I’m sure our horse race junkies would find a way to create a countdown clock out of that. Sigh.

  150. 150.

    Ken

    @Another Scott: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell scheduled a procedural vote on a Republican bill … that they say would maintain the protections for pre-existing conditions should the Supreme Court toss out the ACA.

    I know it’s not going to pass, but just for grins.  Have they done any analysis of how this is going to affect the insurance industry – say, a phone call to David Anderson, or if they can’t get him, anyone else in the insurance business?

    Because as I dimly recall from David’s posts, requiring insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions but not requiring people to buy insurance is a bad thing, for both the industry and the consumers.

  151. 151.

    Ken

    @Betty Cracker: do y’all think Biden and Harris can get away with refusing to answer whether they’ll consider killing the filibuster and expanding the court

    Although true, “You really should be asking the Congressional leadership since they’re the ones who would do it” is probably not a good answer politically.

  152. 152.

    The Moar You Know

    I saw those yesterday and man did it piss me off. I grew up working class and my parents taught me manners. To think working class people are oafs and jackasses is so condescending.

    @Eunicecycle: My parents and grandparents (especially my grandparents) were absolute etiquette Nazis, which I resented as a kid but man, it came in useful later.

    These people, the media, the GOP…all of those shit eaters…their idea of “working class” is “Gin Lane”.

    Fuck ’em.

  153. 153.

    different-church-lady

    @Omnes Omnibus: I like stunt writing just as much as anyone, but when it comes to pesuasion I know it’s not often the right tool for the job. So, good decision.

  154. 154.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @Betty Cracker: Thing is, by November the odds are good that COVID-19 is going to kill almost 300, 000 people in the United States. I really don’t think that voters are going to give a damn about the filibuster or expanding the number of judges on Supreme Court by then. Voters are going to want somebody to stop this nightmare, and it’s not going to happen by voting for the guy who’s pretending the virus is taking a nap.

  155. 155.

    Another Scott

    @Betty Cracker: It would be foolhardy to take anything that could reform the Senate off the table.  Nobody knows the distribution of seats, nobody knows how the lame-duck session will go, etc., etc.

    And on the list of priorities for the public, the cloture/filibuster/etc. rules is about 837231 on the list.

    “We’re talking to the best people and we’ll see what happens.”

    Something like that.  ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  156. 156.

    trollhattan

    @Jay C: 
    I heard the same about Killary during various Cletus safaris: “She hasn’t said anything about…” where “…” would be something she invariably had made a major address about and had a full fucking web page with full details about here plans for ….

    Which is to be expected given most folks don’t give a damn about politics and policy but telegraph their intentions by in that case, implying Trump was all over …. And the safari wrangler, of course, will never, ever, correct or educate Cletus that yes, not only does the candidate have documented views on the topic, she/he has plenty of resources. “Here, look here on my phone.”

    Somehow that’s completely off the toolkit even when they know the consequences of letting Trump lie his way to a second term.

  157. 157.

    Ohio Mom

    I don’t worry about Harris being steamrolled by Pence.

    Kaine was a white man sharing a stage with another white man, who he unthinkingly accepted as a fellow “club member,” assuming Pence would do the same.

    As a woman and a person of color, that has never been Harris’s starting point. Plus after almost four years of watching Pence pile on what he thinks passes for sincerity…

  158. 158.

    Shakti

    @Eunicecycle: I know of at least one guy who makes a sideline of pretending to be “undecided” so he can be interviewed as an ‘undecided/swing voter.’ He absolutely is… Trumpy. He has a podcast flogging kindlebooks, and his wife’s a physician, and he’s a member of this networking group whose meetings I sometimes attend.

    I want to know why all of these undecided voter panels have the collective wits of a dull butter knife. There are smart ‘undecided voters’ but they never make it to these panels.

  159. 159.

    different-church-lady

    @Eunicecycle: Agreed. I don’t Tweet, but if I did, my response to Barkan would have been, “You’re not at all saying what you think you’re saying. You think you’re saying average people don’t care for formal etiquette. What you’re really saying is that most people behave like rude, angry bullies with no sense of everyday decent behavior or fairness.”

    And the sad thing is he might be right without realizing it.

  160. 160.

    snoey

    @Ken: “Lets talk about what we need to get done for the American people now – we’ll talk about what we might need to do to accomplish that if we have to”

  162. 162.

    different-church-lady

    @Shakti: Microsoft used to hire people to go to stores on product rollout days, glom on to any reporters that showed up and feed them pro-Microsort soundbites while pretending to be ordinary shoppers. I don’t doubt political campaigns do the same thing.

  163. 163.

    Bluegirlfromwyo

    @Betty Cracker: IMO, they should tie it back to the polling that says 60+ percent of us want a nomination done by the next president. Then say if the GOP doesn’t listen to the American people, and Joe Biden is the next president, he’ll look at alternatives that will fulfill what the majority wanted.

    I agree with you. This one’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t answer.

  169. 169.

    Marcopolo

    @Betty Cracker:   I think Biden & Harris continue to decline to answer & immediately pivot to the actual important issues: health care/covid/economic suffering.  I think the average voter really could care less about the filibuster/court packing particularly when it is framed as a hypothetical distraction from things that are affecting them in the here and now.  Biden/Harris earn bonus points if they add in the only folks who really care are the reporters looking for a gotcha answer.

  171. 171.

    different-church-lady

    Harris was a procecutor so I’m told.

    Pence has a record to procecute.

    I don’t think there’s going to be much similarity to Kaine’s debate.

  176. 176.

    TS (the original)

    MSNBC just had Nancy Pelosi giving a press conference – I caught the discussion about her negotiations with Mnuchin  re the finance bill.

    Remembering how President Obama negotiated with Speaker Boehner continuously in an attempt to get past their differences, I find it truly unbelievable that Trump has no idea where any money goes in his administration & refuses to even speak to Pelosi, let alone negotiate.

    He has failed in every possible way to fulfil any functions of a US President. He has spent 4 years campaigning for an election that he is going to lose.

  177. 177.

    MattF

    For people who don’t follow the Strong Language blog, here’s a post on how to say ‘shitshow’ in many different languages, capped off by how to say it in sign language.

  179. 179.

    Zelma

    @Sab:

    And I believe the degree was in real estate.  I am sure that Trump never read a single book on that Harvard syllabus.  Or anything else in economic theory either.  Or indeed anything else.

    Poor Penn will never live down the fact that Trump got his degree there.  Like I’m not sure the Yale history department – my academic home 50 years ago – will live down Ben Sasse’s Ph.D.

  180. 180.

    patroclus

    @Betty Cracker: How about take a cue from Trump’s usual evasiveness and say “We’ll see what happens.  I’m not calling for it now, but I could be convinced if the Republicans actually follow through with their shameless hypocrisy and replace Justice Ginsburg in the midst of an election (or lame-duck after the American people have spoken).”

  181. 181.

    brantl

    @Anya:First, I don’t understand how can anyone who voted for Clinton in 2016 be undecided. What happened in the last 3 years and 9-month to make them decide Trump deserves a chance? It just doesn’t make sense.

     

    First and foremost, Frank lies a LOT.

  182. 182.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @TS (the original):

    He has spent 4 years campaigning for an election that he is going to lose.

    Yup. It seems never to have occurred to him that if he actually did a few things on behalf of the country and its citizens, he’d pretty much ensure his reëlection (or at least have a much better shot at a second term).

  183. 183.

    MattF

    @Zelma: Perhaps it needs to be said that a Ph.D. is a professional certification. It means that you have acquired and demonstrated competence in a specific area of research.

  184. 184.

    Zelma

    @MattF:

    Yes.  But there was a critical thinking component to graduate study and the expectation that one would be honest about one’s sources. At least there was in my day.  But that was a long time ago.<g>

  185. 185.

    Jay C

    @TS (the original):

    Minor correction:

    He has failed in every possible way to fulfil any functions of a US President. He has spent 4 years fundraising on campaigning for an election that he is going to lose.

  187. 187.

    PsiFighter37

    @different-church-lady: Kaine also was jarringly aggressive in the debate – there was really no reason for it. Pence is such a nitwit that outwitting him should have been child’s play.

    I still do not understand why the Clinton campaign chose Kaine for the ticket – it was a silly own goal. Kaine is a great guy but was not the right choice.

  190. 190.

    Benw

    Man fuck Goldman Sachs. You know they were 110% down with Trump and the Rs corporate tax grab. They just want a D to come in and fix shit enough to keep the new levels of $ flowing and avoid a total collapse. They’re still fully R and against the basic needs of Americans

  191. 191.

    TS (the original)

    @PsiFighter37:

    I still do not understand why the Clinton campaign chose Kaine for the ticket

    Middle of the road white male. (One of the reasons Obama chose Biden), Biden is a middle of the road white male, so he could choose virtually anyone as his VP without it having a negative impact on his campaign.

  192. 192.

    Ken

    @patroclus: How about take a cue from Trump’s usual evasiveness

    Skipping over “take a cue from Trump” as ill-advised, Trump’s evasiveness is because he has no idea what the person is talking about and is emitting a slurried word salad of garbled memories vaguely prompted by what keywords he caught.

  193. 193.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    By the way: one of my daughter’s housemates is from Appleton (or thereabouts), and of course a Pack fan, so my daughter has adopted the Packers as her “backup” team.

    She’ll probably have less frustration rooting for them than she does rooting for her # 1 team. She’s her father’s daughter, so I’m sure you can guess which team that is.

  195. 195.

    Kent

    @Shalimar:Mark Zuckerberg is not thinking clearly.  Outrage against Facebook skyrockets if Trump is declared the winner.  He’s a fool if he thinks he won’t be going to the guillotines in the first wave.

    No, he’s thinking clearly, and he’s right.  He’s not talking about profits, which will be fine in either scenario. He’s talking about REGULATION.    Which do you think is more likely to generate new regulations and reining-in if not outright breakup of big tech?   Elizabeth Warren taking the lead in a Dem-controlled Senate with Biden as president and a Dem House?  Or McConnell refusing to let any regulatory efforts of any kind through the a GOP controlled Senate with Trump as president?

  197. 197.

    James E Powell

    @Princess:

    I’m a little concerned that the Pence/Harris debate is going to draw some of those votes back to Trump, even if Harris, from our point of view, “wins.”

    I’m trying to think of something that has less impact on presidential elections than the VP debate, but I’m not coming up with anything.

  198. 198.

    JPL

    @PsiFighter37: If memory serves me, there was still some discussion on whether trump would stay in.   Kaine wanted to damage Pence, but that’s not his style.    It did not work.   Even lying Pence seemed like a nicer guy.

  199. 199.

    Kent

    @PsiFighter37:I still do not understand why the Clinton campaign chose Kaine for the ticket – it was a silly own goal. Kaine is a great guy but was not the right choice.

    I expect they had chemistry.  I think she was looking ahead to a governing partner more than thinking strategically to pick the best campaigning partner.  In any event, Kaine had nothing to do with why Clinton lost, unlike say Lieberman who was an anchor on Gore.

  202. 202.

    Barbara

    @Kent: People who work for Facebook are bright young things with transferable skills.  What’s good for Facebook probably doesn’t mean much for their own success in life. Zuckerberg is an immature nincompoop who doesn’t understand the first thing about regulatory risk for companies like Facebook.  If he did, one thing he would understand is that regulation is much easier to deal with once you have already scaled up and are large.  I don’t know how many days it has been since I looked at Facebook but it’s not enough.

  203. 203.

    Ruckus

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    Some can profit from chaos. Those wanting best long term results want stability and reasonableness, because the ride is far smoother and predictable. This is true in all kinds of business, not just the financial end, but especially in business that wants to be reasonable, not just steal everything not tied down, or even that is tied down. trump is steal everything because he’s got the maturity of a 4 yr old spoiled brat, because he was a 4 yr old spoiled brat that never developed any farther.

  204. 204.

    Kent

    @Ohio Mom:

    I don’t worry about Harris being steamrolled by Pence.

    Kaine was a white man sharing a stage with another white man, who he unthinkingly accepted as a fellow “club member,” assuming Pence would do the same.

    As a woman and a person of color, that has never been Harris’s starting point. Plus after almost four years of watching Pence pile on what he thinks passes for sincerity…

    She won’t be steamrolled.  But I’m not really expecting any breathtaking “gotcha” moments either.

    Pence is, if anything, a consummate and experienced GOP politician who has 25 years of experience mouthing GOP talking points and soundbites with just the right steely squint and faux seriousness that seems to play well with a certain set.  He’ll come on and do the same thing at the debate and just refuse to engage at any higher level.  He will have 10 or so sound bite messages he wants to get across and will mouth them at every opportunity and just refuse to actually engage in any back and forth that he isn’t going to win.

    Harris will likely do the same.  Her objective will be to get across the campaign message and defend Biden, not make Pence cry.  She is also a consummate debater and communicator.  She will focus on being warm, funny, and competent.  I expect her attacks will be on Trump, not Pence.  She’ll likely talk right past Pence.

    In the end, I don’t expect much to change.  Even when VP candidates absolutely get owned in a debate, like when Bentsen owned Quale, it doesn’t change the course of the race.

  205. 205.

    Barbara

    @Kent: Yes, this is probably true.  I do think that one takeaway from the train wreck the other night is that Trump just goes to pieces any time someone challenges his intelligence.  And Biden wasn’t even doing that directly when he said that we needed smarter strategies for dealing with the pandemic.  From that Trump insinuated that he wasn’t smart because he went to a state school.  Wow.

  206. 206.

    Kent

    @Barbara:@Kent: People who work for Facebook are bright young things with transferable skills.  What’s good for Facebook probably doesn’t mean much for their own success in life. Zuckerberg is an immature nincompoop who doesn’t understand the first thing about regulatory risk for companies like Facebook.  If he did, one thing he would understand is that regulation is much easier to deal with once you have already scaled up and are large.  I don’t know how many days it has been since I looked at Facebook but it’s not enough.

    The ironic thing is that Zuckerberg would probably make MORE money if Facebook were broken up and he owned pieces of all the subsequent smaller companies (which he would).  He just wouldn’t have as much POWER.

  207. 207.

    Kent

    @Barbara:@Kent: Yes, this is probably true.  I do think that one takeaway from the train wreck the other night is that Trump just goes to pieces any time someone challenges his intelligence.  And Biden wasn’t even doing that directly when he said that we needed smarter strategies for dealing with the pandemic.  From that Trump insinuated that he wasn’t smart because he went to a state school.  Wow.

    The Delaware State thing was just bizarre.  It was something he obviously read on twitter someplace and certainly not something from any debate prep or presidential briefing.  I guess that sort of winging it works in MAGA rallies, but not on a debate stage.

    The other takeaway was what he can’t bring himself to criticize right wing extremists.  Which we already knew.  But wow.  Talk about an own-goal.  What do you think every subsequent debate and town hall is going to talk about from here on out?  All he had to do was say something milquetoast like “I call upon all groups to avoid violence” or some such.

    Now he is in a corner.  He either has to reverse himself, which he can’t really do, or double-down.  Because you absolutely KNOW that question is coming up again.  Except it will be phrased differently.  It will be “Why CAN’T you criticize white extremists and racists?”  Not “Will you…”

  209. 209.

    Ken

    @James E Powell: I’m trying to think of something that has less impact on presidential elections than the VP debate, but I’m not coming up with anything.

    A hundred million voters in states that are firmly red or blue?

  210. 210.

    cain

    @SFAW:

    WTF – is she sure now? The man refuses to condone white supremacy. The proud boys are already in jubilation. Maybe her white husband has been feeding her some bullshit.

  211. 211.

    cain

    @Betty Cracker:

    @Baud: I don’t think GS officially endorsed Trump, but GS partners stocked his cabinet (Mnuchin, Cohn, etc.), and it’s safe to assume the company has aggressively sought deregulation and favorable tax treatment for decades via means fair and foul, just like its peers. Of course they’re at least in part responsible for unsustainable levels of wealth inequality, even if they’re belatedly recognizing the danger that poses to their own precious hides.

    A possible civil war is bad for business. It’s bad for small business. Every one of these people should be fidgeting nervously about the future – but then you look at the stock market and realize they are all sociopaths.

  212. 212.

    cain

    @Princess:

    Just start talking about how Pence is such a better debater than Trump. Trump won’t be able to stand it, and will abuse the shit out of Pence.

  213. 213.

    Ruckus

    @Benw:

    Yes, yes they are.

    However, they at least recognize that there are limits. They recognize that there is more than enough to go around and that trying to have it all ends up getting you nothing, that being the biggest thief gets you scrutiny of a level that you don’t want, which is something that trump has no understanding of whatsoever. He’s always thought his act is scalable to everything. But it isn’t, never has been and never will be. His need to be successful will of course never be fulfilled, he doesn’t have anything required to even attempt that. I say attempt because it never works in the end to have everything, because that leaves out the most important piece of the puzzle, you take everything away, the humans left have no reason not to string you up from a lamppost and every reason to and will find a way at some point to do exactly that. I’d bet that vlad keeps his security force well fed, well paid and well motivated and everyone else with something because otherwise he’d be suffering from rope burn. He still gets most everything and he gets to keep most everything by giving up a little. trump wants everything, thinks he deserves everything, thinks that covid is his ticket to getting rid of all the people that want to give him nothing rather than everything.

  214. 214.

    Kent

    @SFAW:“On Point” (NPR) had their “weekly voter roundtable” thing yesterday. It was four women from one family — a mother and her three 18-24 year old daughters. The mother — a black woman married to a white man — claimed she’s been a Democrat for her entire adult life “but I’m not sure about Biden because reasons.” She lived in Indiana for a long time, they just moved near Atlanta, she and her daughters talked about racism they experience (more in IN than in GA), and she’s still not sure about Trump.

    I know people like that.   If I had to guess, she’s probably a solid Biden voter and always has been.  She just doesn’t want to say it in public for her whole extended white MAGA family clan and employer to hear.  I knew black folks surrounded by white co-workers and supervisors in Texas who would say similar shit just to make the question go away.  When in private they were loyal Democrats.

    There is a certain train of thought in this country where being skeptical of all candidates is seen as being astute or something.

  215. 215.

    J R in WV

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    Moody’s Analytics has said the same, and so has The Wharton School of Business. Y’know, the fancy Eyevee League school that gave Trump his MBA

    While Trump may mumble about his MBA, he does not have one. He may have taken a few classes at Wharton, but his school and degree was  U Penn, not Wharton, the Business College at U Penn.

  216. 216.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Benw: In order to run a stable vampire economy (another name for the Global Oligarchy Project) a minimum number of blood donors must be kept alive & reasonably healthy & the bloodsuckers must exercise some restraint in how often and how deeply they’re tapped.

    Switching metaphors abruptly, the Thugs have once again driven their stolen car too fast, run it off a curve & headfirst  into a tree. Because their automotive expertise goes no further than Grand Theft, they are now counting on the Democrats to tow it into the repair shop & get it running on all cylinders again – whereupon they will once more steal it.

  217. 217.

    Ruckus

    @Eunicecycle:

    Most people grew up working class, there are far more of us that did than didn’t. Some managed to move out of that class with reasonable cost higher education. Once that cost went up, because those that didn’t grow up working class realized that their limited view/access to the world was going to go away by working class people getting a good education, a good education became much more expensive and therefore far less accessible and upper class twits became once again, much more obvious. That’s how the trumps of the world get to be the trumps. Dad screwed working class people and profited from that, sent his devil spawn to upper class schools, paid for his diplomas because he sure as hell wasn’t going to earn them, gave said spawn every opportunity to learn, which was impossible, and here we are, dt is the quintessential upper class twit. Took all the inheritance that he stole from his far more intelligent siblings who did profit from that education and squandered it all on gold plated toilets and bullshit, never learning squat.

  221. 221.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @TS (the original): Middle of the road white male. (One of the reasons Obama chose Biden.)

    Um…no. Kaine (like Biden) was a sitting Senator who enjoyed good relations with his colleagues and was therefore chosen to help navigate the Administration’s legislative program through Congress. This is one of the unofficial but traditional tasks of a VPOTUS (second only in importance, perhaps, to being there in case of a vacancy in the Presidency).

    ETA: Or what d-c-l posted without the logorrhea in #200 supra. (ETA2: Which refers to my post at #216, not this one, damnitall.)

  222. 222.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @J R in WV: He went to Wharton (as you note, the Business College of U.Penn) as an undergrad transfer student.  Of course his degree says Penn – it’s the name of the degree granting institution.  Don’t make more or less of it.  He didn’t get in because he was especially bright nor did he learn anything significant while he was there.

  227. 227.

    J R in WV

    @MattF:

    Perhaps it needs to be said that a Ph.D. is a professional certification. It means that you have acquired and demonstrated competence in a specific area of research.

    It should mean that… but in fact, in many cases, it means someone was mediocre yet incredibly persistent at an equally mediocre institution.

    I once helped (as part of a 3 person hiring committee) to hire a guy with a doctorate who was quite possibly one of the dumbest people I ever worked with. Was out of a Florida school I will not demean by naming, it is possible that he was an exception to most of their doctoral students.

  228. 228.

    Ruckus

    @Princess:

    I don’t think dense is capable of that – giving them permission.

    I do agree with the premise that they have had that permission taken away, but they did that to themselves. They are human, and yes they are more malleable than some but they still retain the ability to think and reason, at least to some degree. Why they look like they are nothing more than bullshit receptacles is that they seem to like bullshit more than anything else. But it’s years, decades of slow learning that their lives are not what they could be because of someone who doesn’t look like them – racism. Far easier to blame someone else for being at best mediocre. Which is what racism is, blaming someone else for all the ills you see, especially the ills one sees in a mirror, be they philosophical or physical. dense is not going to be the person who can sway what is seen in that mirror. Partially because he also believes in the blame for that lies somewhere else than in their own reflection in that mirror but lacks the skills to explain that to their satisfaction. His own voters didn’t label him dense for no reason. And the prince of denseness didn’t pick him as VP for any other reason.

  229. 229.

    Geminid

     

     

    @J R in WV: When Satby said that Barkan wrote for the jacobean, at first I thought that perhaps she was referring to some journal covering early 17th century English drama. Then I realized she meant Jacobin magazine.      To avoid confusion, I call it Jerkobin.

  230. 230.

    Maj TJ Kong

    4S&G, I checked to see if nfw2djt was a registered domain and it looks like .whatever it is available.

  231. 231.

    Richard Guhl

    @Kathleen: You’re welcome. I served a church there from 1975-1988. It had been solid Democratic territory, unlike the rest of Appalachia, because of strong unions and plenty of manufacturing jobs. But with deindustrialization cultural issues came to the fore.

  232. 232.

    Bill Arnold

    @germy:
    From that:

    The deletions come at a time when Barrett’s background is under intense scrutiny by senators who will soon vote on whether to approve a lifetime appointment to the nation’s highest court, and by women’s rights groups, religious organizations and voters who will try to determine how she might rule on crucial issues that are likely to come before the Court.
    The AP was able to track the deletions and access the missing information through the Internet Archive, a nonprofit group that has saved digital versions of more than 330 billion web pages since 1996.

    https://web.archive.org/ for the win, again. I had poked a bit too, glad that AP did it seriously and followed through with an article.

  233. 233.

    Bill Arnold

    @Luciamia:

    Can you imagine Trump s further descent if he starts to believe Wall Street is abandoning him?

    Wall Street does not have a whole lot of choice. (Unless they go to measures like assassination.)
    Also, the appalling shitty DJT Administration Executive Branch response to the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic broken a lot of things. Commercial real estate (and leveraged finance built on top of it), general small customer-traffic businesses (some using that commercial real estate), air travel and associated support industries, hospitality (bars, restaurants, hotels), cruise ships and tourism, etc etc etc were all dealt much larger blows than they would have been dealt if there had been a competent Federal US response, and a competent US response probably would have boosted responses elsewhere in the world as well. (Also high-priced fossil fuels were hit very hard, but that’s a positive vs global heating. )

  234. 234.

    Bill Arnold

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    In order to run a stable vampire economy (another name for the Global Oligarchy Project) a minimum number of blood donors must be kept alive & reasonably healthy & the bloodsuckers must exercise some restraint in how often and how deeply they’re tapped.

    Thank you for this.

  235. 235.

    misterpuff

    @Betty Cracker: They can try to change but all good Vampire Squids will try to extract that last drop of blood from the American Economy before the other Vampire Squids do. Its in their nature

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