Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Books are my comfort food!

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Cancel the cowardly Times and Post and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.

We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

White supremacy is terrorism.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

Those who are easily outraged are easily manipulated.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Let there be snark.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

You are here: Home / Elections / Biden-Harris 2020 / The Harris/Pence Vice-Presidential Debate Open Thread

The Harris/Pence Vice-Presidential Debate Open Thread

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Guardian liveblog here.

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437Comments

  4. 4.

    craigie

    If Pence comes out of this with his head still attached to his body, they will declare him the winner.

  8. 8.

    James E Powell

    @craigie:

    The articles are already written. They just need a few quotes to fill in the blanks. They want their horse race. They want to say “remains to be seen.” They want to feel important.

    ETA – I’m counting on all of you who are better & stronger than me to provide highlights and analysis.

  10. 10.

    mapaghimagsik

    I’ve been looking forward to this. I hope its not crap

    It’s too bad they don’t have protection for the moderator, and I’m not sure if she’s wearing a mask.

  12. 12.

    RedDirtGirl

    Does anyone know why there was an issue about whether they should sit or stand during the debate?

  15. 15.

    Ken

    @L85NJGT: What makes you say that?  Weather, lighting, a staffer walking behind him who was hospitalized last night?

    (Mind you, I would insist that he hold up the day’s newspaper in any video.)

  16. 16.

    Aleta

    Hold Pence responsible (in addition to Trump) for what critics and editorials are still calling Trump’s lies about Covid-19, Trump’s failure to lead, Trump’s indifference.  Blame Pence; he’s  been chair of the Covid task force since February.  He too is lying, failing to lead, responsible for the deaths.

  18. 18.

    dmsilev

    “We still don’t know when the President’s last negative test was. We don’t know how long he’s been contagious”

    (reporters; but could be something Harris pushes…)

  19. 19.

    Steeplejack

    I’ve got a gin and tonic working and I’m ready to go. Watching MSNBC but will switch over to no-frills C-SPAN for the actual debate. Don’t know how long I will hang with it. I’m not feeling very motivated. But I’ll watch a bit to get the tenor. I hope Harris hits Pence right from the get-go, something like “Why aren’t you in quarantine, sir?”

  21. 21.

    Anne Laurie

    @RedDirtGirl: Does anyone know why there was an issue about whether they should sit or stand during the debate?

    “Stamina.” 

    Meaning:  The Media Villagers were looking for clips of Pence towering over tiny little (5’3″) Harris…

  22. 22.

    TS (the original)

    @dmsilev:

    Post reports that Pence’s family are wearing masks

    They have been told they will immediately be escorted out if they remove them. Wonder if this will be tested.

  25. 25.

    L85NJGT

    @Ken:

    “I got back a day ago from Walter Reed Medical Center — I spent four days there and didn’t have to, I could’ve stayed at the White House

  32. 32.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    Fuck you Susan for the thoughts and prayers bullshit.  My only thoughts and prayers are to see Trump and his disgusting children in prison after Election Day.

  41. 41.

    Elizabelle

    This administration has forfeited their right to re-election based on [COVID response].

    Perfect.

  46. 46.

    Steeplejack

    Not crazy about Harris’s first salvo. She should have finished up with something like: “And the vice president here, who is the head of the coronavirus task force, should be in quarantine because of his failure to observe his own commission’s recommendations. And when was his last negative test, by the way?”

    Also could have thrown in the great stat that the White House has had more positive tests than some entire countries.

  54. 54.

    JMG

    Bloomberg columnist and poli sci professor Jonathan Bernstein tweeted that the funniest thing would be if Pence exactly like Trump did in his debate, and second funniest would be if he denied Trump had ever been sick.

  55. 55.

    Steeplejack

    I’m going to have trouble listening to Pence, because when he talks I fall into “adults talking in Peanuts” mode.

  60. 60.

    Alison Rose

    @Anne Laurie: As an even tinier woman (5′ if I stand up real tall) I’ll just say sometimes we can still Hulk out with the best of ’em…and Kamala more so than most, all while smiling and speaking very smoothly and not getting a hair out of place.

    If it’s not obvious, I adore her.

  61. 61.

    Ken

    @Elizabelle: This administration has forfeited their right to re-election based on [COVID response].

    PUNDITS:  Harris brought nothing new to the debate, merely parroting talking points already made by hundreds of more experienced politicians and analysts.  Shrilly.

  62. 62.

    Elizabelle

    Kamala is laughing at the “plagiarism” remark.

    re response:  “Clearly it hasn’t worked.”

    And now thwacking at VP’s role in task force.

  68. 68.

    M31

    ugh, tried to watch but 5 seconds of Pence lying his grotesque thumb-shaped dick head off was too much

  70. 70.

    Elizabelle

    What the American people have done ….

    way to slide the wrong villain into his response.  Pence is only credible to FoxWorld.

  71. 71.

    Miss Bianca

    @lamh36: OK, I take back every mean-spirited thing I ever said about Mayor Pete. That was bloody awesome.

    Go, Team Blue!

  74. 74.

    dmsilev

    Note that Harris said “the things the Administration did didn’t work” and Pence turned that into “the things the American people did didn’t work”. He’s a much smoother liar that Trump.

  77. 77.

    lamh36

    “Whatever the Vice President is describing clearly hasn’t worked… when you’re looking at 210,000 dead bodies.”

    — Kamala Harris

    #VPDebate

  78. 78.

    Yutsano

    “I’m speaking! I’m speaking!”

    Kamala ain’t playing.

    And Dense hasn’t told a single truth yet.

  81. 81.

    Morzer

    I would be surprised if Pence didn’t simply lie, lie, shake his head sadly, lie some more and then finish up by lying. It’s what he did in 2016.

  82. 82.

    Llelldorin

    Pence keeps finding various artful ways to say that the American People are on their own.

  84. 84.

    Leto

    Moderator: why did your White House have a super spreader event and how come the WH isn’t following protocol?

    Dense: You asked for the 5 Ds of Dodgeball?

    And after going over time word salad’ing, still doesn’t answer.

  85. 85.

    Aleta

    If they can’t cut a mike, have an alarm clock  buzzer that goes off, and after a minute becomes loud and constant.

  86. 86.

    dmsilev

    Question: “Why did you ignore all common sense and guidelines at your super spreader event?”

    Answer: “Look, it’s important to stuff the Supreme Court”

  90. 90.

    Elizabelle

    LOL re Pence.  No one is criticizing the American people.

    Kamala is criticizing the Trump-Pence admin.  This is not the same group of people.

    “The American people.”  He bought rights to that phrase from John Boehner.

    We need a count on “the American people” in Pence’s responses.

  93. 93.

    Uncle Jeffy

    Pence accuses Biden campaign of plagiarism, interrupts Harris (wonder where he learned that), and has no respect for the time limitations or the moderator

  94. 94.

    PPCLI

    The one thing I remember most from the Pence-Kaine debate was how smooth and shameless a iiar Pence is. Also how he never paid a price for it. I imagine Kamala prepared for that. I hope so at any rate.

    Open, barefaced lying can be very effective in a short debate. One reason that Obama looked bad in his first debate against Romney was that he hadn’t prepared adequately. But another reason was Romney’s commitment to denying that 2+2=4 whenever it would be rhetorically useful

  96. 96.

    WaterGirl

    I am watching C-SPAN and they are on a split screen, just like you see on all the news shows.

    NOTHING about this could not have been done remotely.  Nothing.

  98. 98.

    JMG

    @Benw: It’s Fox’s answer to ESPN. All the broadcast partners of MLB, Fox, Turner, ESPN and its own network, have some of the divisional round games. But it’ll all be on cable until the World Series, which is a Fox property.

  99. 99.

    Yutsano

    MUTE. HIS. FUCKING. MIC.

    And WTF? Y’all didn’t give the facts when it fucking mattered Dense!

    Page sucks. She needs to cut off Dense when he goes over.

  100. 100.

    Mike in NC

    Pence has always been a slippery weasel, even for a professional pol. Cannot answer a simple question like, “Do you believe gay people should be imprisoned”? It’s always some variation of “now look” or “it’s complicated”.

  110. 110.

    John S.

    @WaterGirl: Yup. It’s driving me and my wife bananas already.

    Pence just ignores Page and says whatever the fuck he wants. He doesn’t answer the questions. He’s not adhering to the rules. And nothing is being done about that.

  112. 112.

    WaterGirl

    “I’m going to enforce the rules.”  And I really mean it.

    Unless Pence keeps interrupting.  And overruling me.

    She told him twice to answer the question, and he insisted on going back to the previous one

    What a total dick.

  113. 113.

    Llelldorin

    Pence is attempting a sort of DOS attack on the debate. It’s making Harris’s short, punchy answers work all the better.

  114. 114.

    trnc

    The time violations seem like what we’ve seen for years (with the exception of last week), so whatevs.

  115. 115.

    Leto

    Haha, Dence have you spoken to the Emperor about the 25th Amendment?

    And Page is just letting him go on… so, this is basically Trumpov part 2, but with less shouting.

  119. 119.

    Steeplejack

    “We’re going to have a vaccine in record time.” Lying sack of shit. First he says within a year, then by the end of this year. Bullshit.

  120. 120.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Llelldorin: Pence keeps finding various artful ways to say that the American People are on their own.

    That’s exactly what he’s saying, but he’s hoping Kamala won’t notice.

    I’m sure she has.  But I had to cut out, because I can’t stand hearing Mike Pence talk.

  121. 121.

    Llelldorin

    If Pence’s beliefs were true, he’d have burst into flames after saying “stop playing politics with people’s lives.”

  123. 123.

    Morzer

    Worth remembering here that Pence was a disaster as governor and became very unpopular. He’s a fluent and shameless liar, but that’s the sum total of his ability.

  125. 125.

    Elizabelle

    “Stop playing politics with peoples’ lives.”  LOL

    Undermining confidence in a vaccine.

    Gawd, not swine flu again.

  128. 128.

    Emma from FL

    Please, for the love of God, stop trying to predict what the media will say, what the Trumpbots will say. It’s like having the air sucked out of the room.

  129. 129.

    Elizabelle

    60 million with the swine flu?

    Do you know anyone who contracted it?  I sure don’t.

    The strategic stockpile emptied — all these lies.

  130. 130.

    Immanentize

    @Steeplejack: I don’t at all.  It’s just so easy to be negative about our peeps doing what they can.  I love you, bruh.  I am just so tired of “being” better than what is.  And “should have” is never a thing a man should say about a woman? Aren’t you married??

  136. 136.

    Yutsano

    He keeps babbling over and Page doesn’t stop him. He’s trying to bully them both. Only Page is falling for it.

  137. 137.

    JPL

    Am I the only one who wants to piss on him?  Not sure that I’ve ever said that before in my seventy years, but there is always a first time.

  140. 140.

    Morzer

    Pence’s beady little red-eyed look has caught Twitter’s attention. The consensus seems to be “That boy ain’t right!”

  141. 141.

    Wolvesvalley

    Pence is a Liar Doll. You pull the string in his back and he drones out the next lie in the queue. He doesn’t stop till the string fully retracts. If that takes longer than two minutes, it is what it is.

    ETA I had to stop watching. Blood pressure rising too high.

  142. 142.

    Baud

    Kamala doing fine.  I don’t think this debate will make a ripple unless something changes.

  144. 144.

    L85NJGT

    Pence would be better off with a southern accent – as it is, he comes off as a suit sent down from corporate…. Look, I know we told you if you made quota we wouldn’t close they plant… but the situation has evolved, and we’re going to close the plant.

  145. 145.

    Amir Khalid

    Watching the CNN VP debate livestream on YouTube. The moderator seems fairly impartial. Big difference between Harris and Pence. Her answers respond to the question, he ignores the question and recites talking points.

  146. 146.

    lamh36

    Any smart person agrees with Kamala 

     

    ·

     

    Kamala Harris on a COVID vaccine: “If Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I’m not taking it.”

  147. 147.

    Kay

    She’s doing fine. Give up on the moderator. We’re stuck with her and Harris is handling the lack of control well.

  148. 148.

    Kelly

    The debate should have a clearly displayed countdown clock for each side triggered by the microphone. Interruptions are deducted as they occur. When one side runs out of time the other side gets all the remaining time.

  151. 151.

    Aleta

    He’s also going to ignore questions when he wants to deliver off-topic attacks.

    Pence reminds me of a lying priest or a lying frat boy hiding a crime.

  156. 156.

    NotMax

    Charley McCarthy and Mortimer Snerd were more expressive than Pence. Hell, any random mannequin in Macy’s window is more expressive than Pence.

    And he’s visibly perspiring.

  157. 157.

    Keith P.

    What a fucking non-answer out of Pence when asked if Presidents should release their health info.

  159. 159.

    CaseyL

    I switched off.  Pence is indeed an accomplished liar, and hearing him mislead, elide, and gloss over what his team has done, and not done, is… tedious, knowing he’s going to do it all debate.  He straight up ignores hard questions, too, like that 25th Amendment issue.

  161. 161.

    John S.

    Would you like to go first, Pence???

    Good lord, Pence has chewed up at least 65% of the talking time, but by all means let him talk some more.

    #PageSucks

  163. 163.

    Jeffro

    @opiejeanne: it’s all he does!

    I said I wasn’t gonna watch…I watched the first 25 minutes, and yup, Pence is just gonna straight-up lie his way through the whole 90 minutes.  So, bye-bye tv, and bye-bye social media for the night.  I’ve got some Iron Fist comics that need my attention.  =)

  164. 164.

    Morzer

    I doubt that this debate is going to change much about the race – and if that’s the case, Team Biden will be perfectly happy.  The big polls have been showing a solid move towards them over the past week and Trump/Pence are in a richly-deserved world of pain.

  165. 165.

    TaMara (HFG)

    Okay, I’m behind about 8 minutes, but Pence looks terrible. His eyes are funny, he’s sweating like a pig and looks more undead than usual. Is this just wishful thinking or anyone else noticing it?

  166. 166.

    Anne Laurie

    Pence (and his assistant Page) are slowing this ‘debate’ down so much, I thought the Guardian liveblog had cut out on me.  But then:

    Mike Pence had no real explanation for the White House’s choice to hold an event at the Rose Garden, which contradicted local rules about gatherings in Washington DC as well as his own task force’s guidelines.

    The vice president’s tactic so far is to hear a question and carry on answering an entirely different one.

    Asked directly about the Rose Garden gathering, Pence praised the American people’s resilience and sacrifices. “The work of the president of the United State goes on,” Pence said.

  167. 167.

    Miss Bianca

    @Wolvesvalley: Yoicks – that is both a hilarious and a deeply disturbing image. Maybe because I regard most dolls with the same horror that a lot of people here feel about clowns.

    For the record, I feel the same way about clowns.

  175. 175.

    lamh36

    shut da fuq up Axelrod…this dude lost all his political acumen when he became a pundit.  Thank goodness Plouffe never sold out for punditry

    @davidaxelrod

    Two observations: The
    @VP
    does not look like his usual sunny self.
    @KamalaHarris
    needs to watch out for split screen when Pence is speaking to not seem self-satisfied. Sobriety is the thing here,

  176. 176.

    Baud

    I just think Pence was a better liar in 2016.  Maybe it’s because the times just don’t call for what he’s selling now.

  179. 179.

    Leto

    “He’s a job creator” as we see the most jobs lost since the Great Depression. “Turned that economy around” is a great attack ad: You had a job when President Trumpov took office? How are you doing now?

  180. 180.

    Elizabelle

    47 years in public life.  Their mantra.

    27% crazification factor.  Ours.

    Pence is lying, lying, lying.

  183. 183.

    mad citizen

    She used the word incompetence,  which is what I hoped for earlier today.  Pence has no case here.  It’s stupid to talk about who wins or loses tonight.  The country sees the shitshow.

  185. 185.

    lamh36

    blame the moderator. if she gonna let Pence answer any questions he likes, why shouldn’t Kamala?

     

    @abbydphillip

    Both candidates are largely ignoring the questions, which makes it very hard to follow what is going on.

  189. 189.

    Morzer

    @RadioFreeTom

    So far, I’m going to say that Harris has been better than I expected, and Pence has been worse than I expected. This is not the Pence who debated Tim Kaine four years ago. #VPDebate2020

  190. 190.

    Steeplejack

    SHUT HIM UP! “Thank you, Vice President” is not getting it done.

    Moderator should have an air horn to get the point across.

    Agree with someone above that it would be helpful for the debaters to have timers showing their two-minute countdowns (if they don’t already).

    Harris has hit her groove; seems like she’s talking more slowly, which fits her style.

  191. 191.

    Anne Laurie

    @Aleta: Pence reminds me of a lying priest or a lying frat boy hiding a crime.

    Nick Sandmann (the Covington kid) is no doubt taking notes, for 2036.

  203. 203.

    lamh36

    DRAG HIM KAM!!!

     

    Kamala Harris: “It would be really good who the president of the United States, the commander in chief, owes money to.”

  204. 204.

    JPL

    Ha    My solution is to mute him, because he adds nothing to the conversation.   She is doing pretty good though just with her looks.

  209. 209.

    lamh36

    Kamala Harris: “Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been about covering up everything.”

  210. 210.

    Kay

    The vice president’s tactic so far is to hear a question and carry on answering an entirely different one.

    This is always portrayed as some brilliant tactical move but Pence doesn’t answer the questions because he can’t. Every real issue is a landmine for him. It’s not a good position to be in. I mean, he can make the best of it and try to not answer the question smoothly, but ideally you don’t want to be in a position where bobbing and weaving is the only choice.
    These people spend so much time lying they can’t do anything else. They’re either lying or covering up a lie. This is a weak position, not a strong one. Can they pull it off? Well, I don’t know but no one would choose this tactic. It’s all he has.

  213. 213.

    Steeplejack

    “Hundreds of thousands of jobs” in fracking all across the heartland? Doesn’t seem likely.

  218. 218.

    Omnes Omnibus

    “if you don’t mind letting me finish, we can have a conversation about that.”

  219. 219.

    hedgehog mobile

    I can’t tonight.  Following along with you all, occasionally hopping on Twitter.  Sipping a raspberry kolsch.  Yankees-Tampa Bay on for background noise.

  221. 221.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    We lasted two questions before we couldn’t take Pence any more. I’ll watch here for highlights.

  222. 222.

    Anne Laurie

    @TaMara (HFG): Pence looks terrible. His eyes are funny, he’s sweating like a pig and looks more undead than usual.

    Watching the liveblog, I’ve been getting the feeling it will be announced tomorrow that Pence has been hospitalized for ‘nervous exhaustion’.

    Hope it’s not the ‘rona — just that he hasn’t been sleeping well, between worrying about the debate & the constant tweet-alerts from his Dear Leader.

  223. 223.

    Llelldorin

    After Trump’s shitshow, interrupting Harris was stupid. What the hell was Pence thinking?

  224. 224.

    PsiFighter37

    Sounds like I made a good choice in deciding to not watch this debate. Going to sleep now in a tired haze instead of furiously angry is nice.

  226. 226.

    Keith P.

    @Suzanne: Rachel Maddow had some eye gunk this evening, too…that wet undereye like Don Jr had going on. Not saying they have the same cause, but where is the makeup artist to fix that before airtime?

  227. 227.

    Immanentize

    @JPL: No, no I don’t.  But pissing on someone is rather gendered?  Boy parts and all.  I loved Lenny Bruce’s answer to critics.  But he was very “guy.”. Kamala is not?

  228. 228.

    Zzyzx

    I figured that there’s nothing going to happen that anyone will remember by Monday so I didn’t watch. It sounds like I should have said “by tomorrow” based on reading.

  230. 230.

    Yutsano

    Sure. Keep bringing up the pandemic THAT YOU DIDN’T BOTHER TO WORK ON STOPPING!!!

    Of course Dense is blabbing about stupid economic things and HE BRINGS UP THE TARIFFS??? He really is an idiot.

    “Mr. Vice President I’m speaking.”

    CUT HIS DAMN MIC DAMMIT!

    Oh Kamala talking to Dense like a child!

  231. 231.

    Benw

    @JMG: Yo, yeah thanks I found it

    Thanks to y’all watching and commenting. I’m watching ball and following your great comments and I can barely stand to hear how awful Pence+moderator is. Sounds like Harris is still rising above

  233. 233.

    Suzanne

    @Elizabelle: I didn’t have swine flu. My exhusband’s kid, not Spawn, got swine flu. She missed a bit of school but was fine.

    Spawn got the flu a couple of years later, not any special flu, just seasonal flu, and he was out of school for a week and a half.

  236. 236.

    MobiusKlein

    @Elizabelle: I got swine flu, as did my son and daughter.   Was bad, but recovered in about a week.
    Whatever I had in Jan/Feb this year hit me 10x harder.

     

    Neither should be a joke or punchline for nobody.

  237. 237.

    lamh36

    Kamala Harris: “Mr. Vice President, I’m speaking. I’m speaking.”

    This is Kamala version of “Reclaiming my time” and I LOVE IT!

  238. 238.

    H.E.Wolf

    @WaterGirl: I have never hit anyone in my life, but I want to punch Pence. Literally.

    Words of wisdom from someone else: Hit the soft parts with your hand; hit the hard parts with a utensil.

    I’m not okay with assault and battery. But if you feel otherwise, I’ll just mention that cast-iron skillets are useful for more than scrambling eggs in. :)

  239. 239.

    Morzer

    I keep thinking that if Pence were not restrained by the plexiglass he would shamble across the stage mumbling “Brains. Must have brains!”

  240. 240.

    Leto

    “President Trumpov and I will release a health care plan” YOU’VE HAD FOUR FUCKING YEARS, DENSE!

    GREEN NEW DEAL, DRINK!

  241. 241.

    Elizabelle

    Pence and Harris are talking to two entirely different audiences.

    It’s depressing.  Pence is through the looking glass, and appropriating the Democrats’ successes.

  243. 243.

    Martin

    Nope. Lasted longer than the presidential debate, but I see no reason to subject myself to Pence’s smug-ass lying paternalistic face if I’m not allowed to punch it.

  244. 244.

    mad citizen

    Obamacare and the Green New Deal are not frightening to people.  Obamacare polls high I read here.

  249. 249.

    Steeplejack

    I hope someone is fact-checking Pence, because his bullshit-to-signal ratio is extremely high.

  250. 250.

    Tazj

    So glad she has an answer for Pence’s “Biden has been in government 47 years and has never done anything.” The Recovery Act and the ACA. I love that she worked that in.I know everyone here knows that but it drives me crazy when Pence and Trump keep saying Biden has done nothing.

  251. 251.

    West of the Rockies

    Pence looks like a disappointed, white-haired Jerry Mahoney.  He is devoid of humor or humility.

  252. 252.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    not watching, but I’m seeing a lot of people tweet that Pence looks bad, tired and pale, even for an Indiana Republican in Utah

  253. 253.

    trnc

    @lamh36: Pence is interrupting Harris and Susan ain’t doing shit. No surprise

    It’s weird that qtip would interrupt like that after the reaction to DT last week, but I’m glad Page didn’t handle it because Kamala did and she kicked his ass.

  255. 255.

    Elizabelle

    Pence re climate change:  President Trump has made it clear that we are going to listen to the science.

    And he said it with a straight face.

  258. 258.

    West of the Cascades

    @H.E.Wolf: Hit the soft parts with your hand; hit the hard parts with a utensil.

    Does a nose count as a soft or hard part?

  260. 260.

    John S.

    This is not a debate. This is a 90 minute Gish gallop by a serial liar, aided and abetted by a useless fucking moderator.

  261. 261.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Immanentize: But pissing on someone is rather gendered?

    In Ursula Le Guin’s poignant short story, “The Day Before the Revolution”, the heroine reminisces about the time when she… micturated on a public monument.

    Not that I’d want to take the mickey out of your comment, or anything. :)

    ETA changed an adjective and fixed formatting.

  265. 265.

    Leto

    Fracking is fucking horrible. Also wtf is wrong with moving off fossil fuels? Can’t wait for the Trumpov/Dense Whale Oil Industry to make a roaring come back.

  267. 267.

    Keith P.

    Tip for the moderator: Saying “thank you” is not an effective way to get someone to stop talking over his time.

  274. 274.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Leto:

    Fracking is fucking horrible. Also wtf is wrong with moving off fossil fuels? Can’t wait for the Trumpov/Dense Whale Oil Industry to make a roaring come back.

    Won’t somebody think of the Whalers!?

  276. 276.

    West of the Rockies

    @Martin:

    Yeah, Pence’s disappointed dad face is wretched.  The little bird-like head movements, squinty eyes, and that grimace of a smile are so bland and boring.

  277. 277.

    The Moar You Know

    I’m fucking glad Pence isn’t president.  That man is a consummate liar.  One of the best I’ve ever seen, right up there with Reagan.

  282. 282.

    NotMax

    How much have fracking interests poured into the empty shell that is Pence?

    And then he said: “There are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago.” As a storm named for a Greek letter because A-Z have already been used this year is heading across the Gulf.

  289. 289.

    Keith P.

    @Immanentize: The problem is that “Green New Deal” just doesn’t sound ominous enough.  He’d get mileage out of one of the old classics, like “Biden will get his marching orders from George Soros and Saul Alinsky”

  294. 294.

    Leto

    Ok, so I got the robotic programming figured out:

    1) Joe’s gonna raise taxes
    2) Green New Deal
    3) Start over at #1

    That’s it folks, g’night!

  297. 297.

    Morzer

    I’d pay money to hear Kamala Harris suggest that since the Vice President looks unwell and obviously isn’t hearing the questions, perhaps he should take five minutes and go and powder his nose.

  298. 298.

    Lacuna Synechdoche

    @WaterGirl:

    Man, he is a smooth liar.

    He’s a former wingnut talk radio host who specialized at making outrageous, fascistic statements in the same soothing tone of voice as a new age motivational speaker urging you to find your center.

  301. 301.

    Splitting Image

    I haven’t been watching the debate, but I’m not surprised to hear that Pence has been taking up more than his share of the time. Want to bet that anyone who says later tonight that Pence won the debate argues that Harris was the one talking too much? I would guess women are going to see this far differently from men.

    Also, Bill Kristol remarked that whatever happens, it will be really important to stress that Pence did a much better job than Trump. Especially in forums where Trump is likely to hear about it.

  307. 307.

    brantl

    Man, that Dence can lie his ass off. He keeps saying things that aren’t true, and he just keeps going. He never shuts up, he must go a half minute over on every chance that he as to speak. They should cut the mikes. This is ridiculous.

  309. 309.

    Aleta

    If speak over their answer time by >x sec, or interrupt for x sec,  they forfeit their next rebuttal.

  314. 314.

    Ken

    @West of the Cascades: Simplest really to always use the utensil. By the way, I assume a rock qualifies as a utensil? Because the way I heard it was “Don’t hit people with your fist. That’s what God made rocks for.”

  315. 315.

    Juju

    @Elizabelle: H1N1 is swine flu. I had it and it was a very rough flu for me. I was given Tamiflu it still took me more than two months to recover completely. If a new mutation of H1N1 comes through again, get your flu shot. I had an appointment to get mine two days after I started getting ill.   Now you know someone who had swine flu.

  317. 317.

    Elizabelle

    Having Pence say — for the second time — “you’re entitled to your opinion, you’re not entitled to your own facts” is nauseating.

  318. 318.

    Llelldorin

    Pence’s attempts to filibuster this debate is a strategy, I suppose. It’s an incredibly stupid strategy, but it’s a strategy.

  319. 319.

    Amir Khalid

    “Senator Harris, you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re not entitled to your own facts.”

    Wow.

  322. 322.

    mapaghimagsik

    Harris is doing great in creating a small bit of space of time, to clearly show how she can show even more how Pence keeps talking over.

  324. 324.

    Miss Bianca

    @Ken: *clicks link, of course*

    Daaaaamn yoooouuuuu….!

    Actually, Adam S sent me that link one time, so the shock wasn’t nearly as appalling as it might have been.

  331. 331.

    A Good Woman

    Following on Twitter, but need to say this

    Susan Page is a GOP Toadie and even less capable than Wallace

    Pence is busy mansplaining — shut him up!

  335. 335.

    trnc

    @Elizabelle: Pence keeps going to the “he’ll raise taxes” well.

    He seems to believe that Biden saying he would repeal DT’s tax atrocity means every bit of it, including the tiny fraction that went to the middle class, regardless of Biden saying explicitly he wouldn’t raise for anyone making more than $400K.

  337. 337.

    Marcopolo

    So the problem w/ Page is she isn’t enforcing time limits equally & instead of saying thank you to Pence when he goes over she should repeat your time is up till he stops talking. They need the girl from the ignoble awards.

  341. 341.

    lamh36

    No need for any lies.  Drag him with the facts Kam!!!

     

    Kamala Harris: “Joe Biden is responsible for saving America’s auto industry and you voted against it. So let’s set the record straight.”

  342. 342.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Pence, to pretty much every question: “Susan, I’ll be glad to evade that question, but first let me digress.”

  343. 343.

    Elizabelle

    @Amir Khalid:   I know.  Pence has said that two times, and possibly more than that.

    It’s bizarro world.  More appropriating of Democrats’ assets.  I think that was a quote from Dem. Senator Patrick Moynihan?

    Pence is shameless.  Someone planted that in debate prep.

    And he talks on.  Cut his damn mic, Susan Page.

  344. 344.

    John S.

    For. Fuck. Sake. Pence hasn’t answered a single question yet, and Page isn’t doing shit other then say “Thank you Mr. Vice President may I have another”. Way to enforce the rules of the debate, Susan.

  347. 347.

    Lacuna Synechdoche

    @Princess:

    Pink eye is a sign of COVID. Sometimes it is the first/only sign.

    That could explain why Dense decided to accept the plexiglass separators – maybe he decided at the last minute that he didn’t want to get accused of knowingly spreading the disease to other people on purpose.

  348. 348.

    jl

    I guess you can honestly say the catch phrase ‘you are not entitled to your own facts’ then spout stuff with no facts at all. Yeah, that’s right, I took an intro ethics course at community college.

    Harris is fast on good fact based comebacks: saved auto industry, people remember that and can fact check on their own.

    Let’s see how she handles the Pence BS on NAFTA and Trump’s trivial but somewhat worse and very much worsely incoherent MSMCA, or YMCA, or whatever it was.

  350. 350.

    Joy in FL

    It is so hard to keep listening to Pence lie and lie and lie. I know I can turn the debate off , but I want to see it firsthand. Hopefully I will never have to listen to Pence ever again for any length of time.

  352. 352.

    HumboldtBlue

    @WaterGirl:

    I’m sure that’s the voice he would use as they try to brainwash gay people into not being gay.

    Sweet Jesus beating Saul of Tarsus with a stick, that’s fucking spot-on.

  353. 353.

    Ken

    @West of the Rockies: Oil companies are not cracking because it is expensive and there is no market.

    Because there’s a worldwide glut, because the pandemic has suppressed fossil fuel use.  So the reason oil profits are way down is that the Trump administration hasn’t done anything about the pandemic.

  357. 357.

    jl

    Three quarters of the trade and geopolitical econ stuff with China is total BS. And about half of the rest is stuff that was just fine with big US corporations and banks when China severely damaged our manufacturing 10 to 25 years ago.  Edit: so I’d start with that, but I’m not politician.

    I leave aside military and spy versus spy national security issues since I don’t know much about that.

  358. 358.

    lamh36

    @gregoryawilson

    ·
    56s

    Replying to
    @AlGiordano

    She’s in total command of this debate, and Pence is doing nothing but watching as the boulder of the fading Republican campaign rolls even further down the hill. Excellent performance by Harris on all levels so far.

  361. 361.

    Miss Bianca

    @Amir Khalid: “Mr Vice-President, that line sounded better coming out of Mitt Romney’s mouth in 2012. And, pro-tip – it didn’t sound that great then.”

  362. 362.

    Lacuna Synechdoche

    @WaterGirl:  I’m sure that’s the voice he would use as they try to brainwash gay people into not being gay.

    So that’s where he learned it. Explains a lot.

  364. 364.

    NotMax

    @Elizabelle

    Proper response in this case is:

    “With all due respect, Mr. Vice President, you wouldn’t recognize a fact if it bit you on the butt.”

  365. 365.

    Mary G

    If he is going to be allowed to lie, interrupt, and go over his allotted time, what exactly is the point of this?— Mary L Trump (@MaryLTrump) October 8, 2020

    Every woman watching is sick to death of these men and will vote for Biden.— Mary Michel Green (@marymichelgreen) October 8, 2020

    I’ve gotten more likes in 10 minutes for that answer than I usually get in a month and a half.

  371. 371.

    Citizen Alan

    @WaterGirl:

    I can picture Pence being part of an exorcism.  He is just creepy.

    Me too. He would be the one who’s head was spinning around 360 and vomiting pea soup.

  374. 374.

    Llelldorin

    @Steeplejack: I’m not convinced that it is working for him. If he were reaching a pithy crescendo it’d work for him, but he’s just droning over Page in an endless, directionless ramble, so it just comes across as obnoxious.

  378. 378.

    jl

    Harris really knows the facts, very on-point. But I wonder if some of it is over the standard pundits’ heads. But, even after she maybe goes too informed sophisticated for moderators and Pence, she can really close with an accusation that will stick in peoples’ minds.

  380. 380.

    Elizabelle

    Pence is going to whinge about Kayla Miller with 210K dead of COVID?

    And her parents are in the audience.  As props?

  382. 382.

    Mikeindublin

    I would say the way she’s framing questions are more critical and are framed in ways that go contrary to Republican positions.

  383. 383.

    Juju

    @Elizabelle: Please do, as am I. It was the first time in my life where I could see how people die of flu. I didn’t have health insurance back then and I was worried about being hospitalized. I have insurance now, but for how long, o don’t know.

  386. 386.

    trnc

    Does anyone know where I can send my resume for debate moderator? I’ve been saying “Thank you” for my entire life, so I think I’m qualified.

  389. 389.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    Seriously.  Mute that Fucking asshole.  Instead it’s, Mr VP, you’ll have 2 minutes uninterrupted.  Except for the 30 seconds of me saying, thank you. Mr. Vice President while you ramble on.  You shameless prick.

  390. 390.

    jl

    Pence can lie shamelessly, and moderators need to shut him up. IOKIYAR. Harris has to get equal time, OK, good Harris gets her equal time after moderator was going to throw a gimme to a lying cheater.

  392. 392.

    John S.

    It’s amazing. Pence is speaking about shit that only people in the Fox News/Talk Radio bubble understand. It’s pure red meat for the base, and nobody else.

  394. 394.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @mapaghimagsik:

    “As I said earlier, Senator Quayle — and it bears repeating, so I will — Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. You’re no Jack Kennedy.”

  398. 398.

    jl

    If I were Harris I’d start response with history of contradictory Monday morning quarterbacking ever changing BS on Middle East policy.

    Both are taking past each other, and providing a parade or horribles.

    Pence has to obey the damn rules. More spineless moderators.

    Pence is doing the same damn thing as Trump. Give him some cards and then throw his ass out, like in futball. And let Harris get her time back.

    But, Dems should have seen this BS on Middle East coming, and be able to provide better than a competing parade of horribles.

  399. 399.

    Llelldorin

    It’s hard to tell if the moderator is actually being unfair, because Harris is very good about sticking sharply to the time limit. Page didn’t shut her down when she was slamming Trump a second ago and actually did go over time.

  401. 401.

    Steeplejack

    I turned off the sound. Couldn’t take any more and had to tap out. I’ve still got the picture on in case a meteor falls on Pence. Gonna look at Twitter and live feeds to see how it’s being perceived elsewhere.

  402. 402.

    Just One More Canuck

    @Omnes Omnibus: A long time ago, I rented an apartment from a guy who worked as a clown on weekends doing kids parties and whatnot. I don’t have the same visceral reaction as you and BillinGlendale, but when he was in his outfit, lord was he creepy

  403. 403.

    prostratedragon

    @West of the Cascades:  Soft, if you can either make a good fist or use the heel of your hand. It’s a sound principle, which I learned as never hit something as hard as what you’re hitting it with.

  404. 404.

    dnfree

    The moderator is a woman. The Democratic candidate is a woman. The Republican candidate is a man WHO talks past the end of his two minutes every single question and won’t stop when the moderator tells him time is up. He speaks in a smarmy condescending voice.

    I read John Cole’s tweet: “I honestly don’t know how any woman who has been the subject of reactive abuse or been in an abusive relationship where she was gaslit can watch five seconds of Pence talking that calm, condescending tone of voice.”

    It’s not just women who’ve been in abusive relationships. It’s women who’ve had know-it-all bosses or co-workers. I know I’m biased, but I wonder how many other women perceive this.

    And why is the moderator responding to the consistent ignoring of the time limit by repeatedly saying “Thank you, Mr. Vice President” instead of “Shut UP, Mr, Vice President “?

  407. 407.

    jl

    Harris needs to directly point out that Pence is evading the questions and BSing, and lying his ass off.

    Edit: I watched Graham Harrison. Dems should bring in Harrison to coach future debates, IMHO.

    Moderator shouldn’t say ‘thank you’, but ‘shut the F up, jackass’ to Pence.

    Now I see this is one of the those BS debates where both candidates don’t get the same questions. I hate that dishonest shit that allows the moderators to essentially fix the debate. They are just abject media stunts. I’m out for a while.

    Edit: shit, Harris ups her game on health care just as I was going to relieve my misery and tune out for a while. But, should have been more explicit in explaining that Barrett is more a corporatist gunning for small business, workers and sundry ‘lesser’ people than a social conservative.

  408. 408.

    Lacuna Synechdoche

    @John S.:

    It’s amazing. Pence is speaking about shit that only people in the Fox News/Talk Radio bubble understand. It’s pure red meat for the base, and nobody else.

    There’s a dynamic on the right that we on the left seldom recognize. You see, we assume that right-wing politicians know the talking points on Fox are lies for the rubes. But in reality, these guys watch Fox News All. The. Damn. Time. 

    After a while, they actually believe all that shit. To them, it IS reality.  Pence isn’t necessarily trying to spread wingnut lies and appeal to the Fox News base – he IS the Fox News base. He, Barr, Trump, Miller, and so on, really really believe the crap they see on Fox. Yes, they really really are that gullible and that stupid.

    Think about it. It explains a lot.

  409. 409.

    Elie

    Kamala is doing just fine in my opinion —. Even with the cheater trying to hog and diflect.  I think it’s pretty clear to any fair person that Pence is just a propagandist

  412. 412.

    jl

    Harris better call the Big Lie on Pence re SCOTUS. Pence is throwing an easy slow lob with his outrageous hypocrisy

    SHUT UP PENCE! Harris has to do it because the lousy moderators won’t.

    Edit: Harris needs to call Pence on their blatant GOP hypocrisy. Slam him in the face with it.  Go Harrison on Pence’s ass: (paraphrase) you’re a miserable hypocrite, don’t lie about it, stand up like a man and say you changed your mind, then try to to tell us why… but you can’t.

  414. 414.

    Amir Khalid

    This debate is as out of control as the Trump-Biden one. Trump and Pence have made it a policy to ignore the rules, to talk over their opponents, to just push out talking points regardless of the question, and the moderators dare not shut them down when they do.

  418. 418.

    trnc

    Why the hell should the Supreme Court be stuck at 9 members forever? We have at least 200 more members of congress than we had in 1870. We have 300 MILLION more people living in this country. That adds up to a lot more cases to consider. We should have at least 15 justices on the court.

  419. 419.

    jl

    @Spanish Moss: Maybe I missed someplace where Harris threw the about-face of the GOP on their last year rule straight into Pence’s arrogant mug. I’ll look for that that later if I missed it.

  421. 421.

    Bokonon

    This performance by Pence is aimed entirely at the GOP’s base.  He isn’t going to show Harris any respect.  He isn’t going to show the moderator any respect.  He isn’t going to answer their questions.  He is just going to bulldoze over them.  The words from Pence’s mouth don’t need to mean a thing – the entire message is in the performance.

  422. 422.

    jl

    @Amir Khalid: Media in the US is more cowardly and abjectly deferential in how they handle federal politicians’ BS than in any other Anglo-Saxon (if that is the current lingo) English Speaking country I know. Shameful and humiliating for this country.

  423. 423.

    BruceFromOhio

    Susan needs a stack of skillets to throw at Pence, that’s the only way to enforce the rules. Otherwise feh. Pence has a checklist to complete before he gets his treats.

  424. 424.

    jl

    @BruceFromOhio: Need to scold him and shame him publicly, and if he gives BS back, tell him to STFU and correct him and school him in detail on what he is pulling. I’d say timed mics only solution if the moderators are  too cowardly to enforce the rules.

  425. 425.

    Misterpuff

    Susan Page is getting steamrolled by Mike Dense no less.

    Yes Mike this is why Americans hate the Press. No Guts, No Spine.

  427. 427.

    Spanish Moss

    @jl: You know, that is what I expected her to do. Instead, she took a broader view of the courts and discussed what she saw on the Judiciary committee: Trump “packing” the federal courts with people who were not deemed competent by professional law organizations, the lack of diversity, etc.

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