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You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Repub Venality Open Thread: Turks, Bearing Gifts

Repub Venality Open Thread: Turks, Bearing Gifts

by Anne Laurie|  October 31, 202012:17 pm| 197 Comments

This post is in: C.R.E.A.M., Foreign Affairs, Republican Venality, Trump Crime Cartel

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Fun to think about how we learned today that Trump and Barr did with Turkey the exact thing Trump and his fans are falsely claiming Joe Biden should be in prison for doing, and it’s just another wild story of Trump doing crimes that won’t break through https://t.co/rGtKeMLqIo

— ? Endless Zoom Meeting ? (@AdamSerwer) October 30, 2020

The iron rule of Repub propaganda is that it’s always projection, but this particular saga is particularly ripe…

This story is one huge five alarm Trump corruption scandal with individual acts of corruption by Barr, Whitaker, and Mnuchin. https://t.co/zxayB4d1Or

— Matthew Miller (@matthewamiller) October 29, 2020

Committing actual journalism at the NYTimes — “Turkish Bank Case Showed Erdogan’s Influence With Trump”:

Geoffrey S. Berman was outraged.

The top federal prosecutor in Manhattan, Mr. Berman had traveled to Washington in June 2019 to discuss a particularly delicate case with Attorney General William P. Barr and some of his top aides: a criminal investigation into Halkbank, a state-owned Turkish bank suspected of violating U.S. sanctions law by funneling billions of dollars of gold and cash to Iran.

For months, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey had been pressing President Trump to quash the investigation, which threatened not only the bank but potentially members of Mr. Erdogan’s family and political party. When Mr. Berman sat down with Mr. Barr, he was stunned to be presented with a settlement proposal that would give Mr. Erdogan a key concession.

Mr. Barr pressed Mr. Berman to allow the bank to avoid an indictment by paying a fine and acknowledging some wrongdoing. In addition, the Justice Department would agree to end investigations and criminal cases involving Turkish and bank officials who were allied with Mr. Erdogan and suspected of participating in the sanctions-busting scheme.

Mr. Berman didn’t buy it.

The bank had the right to try to negotiate a settlement. But his prosecutors were still investigating key individuals, including some with ties to Mr. Erdogan, and believed the scheme had helped finance Iran’s nuclear weapons program…

Let’s not argue about ‘oo bribed ‘oo!…

… The president’s apparent eagerness to please Mr. Erdogan has drawn scrutiny for years. So has the scale and intensity of the lobbying effort by Turkey on issues like its demand for the extradition of one of Mr. Erdogan’s political rivals, a Turkish religious leader living in self-imposed exile in the United States. Mr. Erdogan had a big political stake in the outcome, because the case had become a major embarrassment for him in Turkey.

At the White House, Mr. Trump’s handling of the matter became troubling even to some senior officials at the time.

The president was discussing an active criminal case with the authoritarian leader of a nation in which Mr. Trump does business; he reported receiving at least $2.6 million in net income from operations in Turkey from 2015 through 2018, according to tax records obtained by The New York Times.

And Mr. Trump’s sympathetic response to Mr. Erdogan was especially jarring because it involved accusations that the bank had undercut Mr. Trump’s policy of economically isolating Iran, a centerpiece of his Middle East plan.

Former White House officials said they came to fear that the president was open to swaying the criminal justice system to advance a transactional and ill-defined agenda of his own…

And everyone around him was just FINE with that.

Criminal investigations to clean up the mess these goniffs leave behind is gonna take years — and make a lot of prosecutors’ reputations.

the contrast between the Obama and Trump administrations in this story is stark. Erdogan asks Biden to fire Preet Bharara in 2016 and Biden says no. In 2020, Barr fires Bharara's successor Geoffrey Berman after failing to get Berman to soft-pedal the case. https://t.co/ooKr7W6qvm

— Quinta Jurecic (@qjurecic) October 29, 2020

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197Comments

  1. 1.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 12:27 pm

    It’s always projection with Republicans. An enterprising reporter could go look at Republican accusations against Democrats, especially the QAnon stuff, make a list, and start investigating Republicans for those things. There will be plenty to find.

  2. 2.

    Hunter Gathers

    October 31, 2020 at 12:28 pm

    Polls show Trump heading for a loss on Tuesday. Members of this Ohio Klavern aren’t so sure.

  3. 3.

    Wag

    October 31, 2020 at 12:33 pm

    Qanon is the mirror reflecting everything going on in the GOP

  4. 4.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 12:36 pm

    @Wag:  QAnon is the GOP’s future. It’s a stupid af cult but it’s real and it’s going to affect all of us. There are a few Q people who will win seats in Congress this election. It’s just going to get worse from here.

  5. 5.

    MattF

    October 31, 2020 at 12:43 pm

    When the Trumpies want to accuse someone of corruption, they go to what they’ve just done for reference. Not so much projection as stupidity and limited behavioral repertoire.

  6. 6.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 12:44 pm

    Can someone with a WaPo account see if the actual article supports the headline? It sounds very promising.

    Trump losing in Alaska. Biden hitting 50 in Georgia. And “well, the president’s losing Arizona.” How Trump’s sinking #s dragged down Senate Rs across the map, and their efforts to carve out a distinct yet “violent” path to keep the majority. w/ @pkcapitol https://t.co/gKJmVmkCP2
    — Seung Min Kim (@seungminkim) October 31, 2020

  7. 7.

    MattF

    October 31, 2020 at 12:49 pm

    @Yarrow:

    First few graphs:

    From the deepest conservative states to more Democratic leaning terrain, Senate Republicans face a brutal political environment that has left the GOP needing to pull off a near-perfect run in a dozen highly competitive races to retain the majority.

    That environment, with a pandemic killing nearly 230,000 Americans and leaving millions unemployed, wounded President Trump’s standing even in his most reliable states, dragging Republican incumbents down with him and opening new avenues for Democrats to pursue the Senate majority, according to interviews with 10 strategists in both parties deeply involved in Senate races.

    Neither side is certain of victory, and the quirks of each state’s vote-counting systems means it could be days, weeks or even a couple of months before senators know which party holds power over presidential appointments and sets the Senate agenda.

  8. 8.

    Humanities Prof

    October 31, 2020 at 12:49 pm

    @Yarrow: Eh….yes and no?

    Parts about Georgia and Arizona are more or less faithful to what’s in the story.  Alaska, less so.

    The story doesn’t suggest that Trump is in any danger of losing Alaska (and I don’t think he is, either).  It’s a reference to the closer-than-it-should-be Senate election there.  IMHO, they’re relying on somewhat outdated data there.  Recent polling suggests Sullivan will probably pull it out, though not by huge numbers.

  9. 9.

    Mallard Filmore

    October 31, 2020 at 12:50 pm

    @Yarrow: Using Firefox with “NoScript”, I can see all the text.  Only the accompanying photograph is blurred.

  10. 10.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 12:52 pm

    @MattF:  No, it’s projection. The defining characteristic of Republicans is the lack of empathy. It also happens to be a feature of narcissists, or at least they are unwilling to empathize. Projection is used by these people because they can’t look at their own issues or failings. Link.

    Projection is a defense mechanism commonly used by abusers, including people with narcissistic or borderline personality disorder and addicts. Basically, they’re saying, “It’s not me, it’s you!” When we project, we are defending ourselves against unconscious impulses or traits, either positive or negative, that we’ve denied in ourselves. Instead, we attribute them to others.

    Seriously, investigative journalists could just make lists of everything Republicans/Q adherents accuse Dems of and start investigating them. They tell everyone what they do. It’s not hard to figure it out.

  11. 11.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    October 31, 2020 at 12:54 pm

    My absentee ballot is now listed as “good and will be counted.” Yay!

  12. 12.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 12:54 pm

    @MattF: @Humanities Prof: Thanks. That’s pretty much what I figured. At this point it’s all about turnout.
    @Mallard Filmore: Thanks for the tip. I don’t have that set up on Firefox but will look into it.

  13. 13.

    e julius drivingstorm

    October 31, 2020 at 12:57 pm

    I’m sure someone by now has forwarded the NYT link to Jack Nicklaus?

  14. 14.

    Calouste

    October 31, 2020 at 12:59 pm

    @Yarrow: I’ve been wondering how many QAnon idiots that are so concerned about child abuse are conservative Catholics. You know, people who are members of an organization that covered up child abuse for decades.

  15. 15.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 1:02 pm

    @e julius drivingstorm:

    For all his money, Nicklaus is a Deplorable. He won’t be swayed by even the most damning evidence against Trump.

  16. 16.

    Mallard Filmore

    October 31, 2020 at 1:05 pm

    @Yarrow:   Oops.  I forgot to mention I looked at the article in a Private Browsing window.

  17. 17.

    planetjanet

    October 31, 2020 at 1:05 pm

    @Yarrow:

    Trump is not losing Alaska.  Biden is down by 8 in 538’s polling averages.  But there are few reliable polls in Alaska.

  18. 18.

    Immanentize

    October 31, 2020 at 1:05 pm

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Good, good!

  19. 19.

    catclub

    October 31, 2020 at 1:10 pm

    So THAT was what the Berman firing/not firing was about!

  20. 20.

    Anoniminous

    October 31, 2020 at 1:11 pm

    Whether Trump does or does not take Alaska is completely irrelevant.

    The Senate race is another matter.  Alas, polling indicates Sullivan will be re-elected.

  21. 21.

    e julius drivingstorm

    October 31, 2020 at 1:13 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Nicklaus says he doesn’t personally know anyone who supports Biden, so there’s no one in his circle to unskew his perspective. It’s like I tell my republican friends it’s not their fault – they’ve been misinformed.

  22. 22.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 1:15 pm

    Joe Biden @JoeBiden · 1h
    Who let all these people into my basement?

  23. 23.

    Humanities Prof

    October 31, 2020 at 1:20 pm

    Watching college football today (I’m an addict, sue me).

    I don’t understand Republican attack ads.  Caught one targeting Gary Peters during a commercial break.  Republicans might buy that electing Peters will “empower the radical left” (although I don’t think Peters is known as a flaming lefty).

    But the next line is that he’d “force Medicare for all.”

    I….question the timing of this particular line of attack.  How is raising the possibility that the government would give people health care coverage in the middle of a global pandemic supposed to make those same people feel threatened?

  24. 24.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 1:22 pm

    You heard the man

    THE UNTOUCHABLES (1987) “That’s the Chicago way” Utterly iconic dialogue coming from Oscar winning Sean Connery as Jimmy Malone.

    https://twitter.com/right_movies/status/1213022353124233216

  25. 25.

    cmorenc

    October 31, 2020 at 1:25 pm

    One thing missing from this turkish tale of treachery so far is rudy giuliani.  It would be irresponsible not to speculate one will turn up, even though no evidence of duch has surfsced (not quite yet, anyways)

  26. 26.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 31, 2020 at 1:25 pm

    @MattF: Not so much projection as stupidity and limited behavioral repertoire.

    Disagree. The dark energy that fuels Trumpworld – I’m speaking of their voters here – is grievance at the absence/disappearance of status. The Trumpista stance is to snarl at their opponents (who, in their own eyes, routinely mock them for their crudity and classlessness), You’re no better’n I am!** So when they concoct some despicable (illegal, immoral, unethical, fattening, etc.) maneuver to benefit their side tribe, they naturally presume their overedjumacated egghead opponents not only have thought of it but have already done it. Because we can’t be any more moral, ethical, or law-abiding than they are. We just can’t. By definition. Otherwise the epistemic cloture*** of their braincase collapses, and they got bupkis.

    (ETA: Yarrow’s post at #10 supra is also part & parcel of Trumpism, for which I salute him.)

    ** At best. Usually it’s You fancy-pants ain’t even as good as I am!

    *** Sixty (marginally-)functioning synapses required to stifle debate.

  27. 27.

    Sister Golden Bear

    October 31, 2020 at 1:26 pm

    @Calouste: Interesting question. As well as how many potential pedophiles are in the QAon ranks.

    Sort of like how fundamentalists think about gay sex a lot, far more than I do—and I’m actually queer. I’m willing to bet there are a number of repressed gay/bisexual folks in their ranks.

    Although I lean more towards the theory, that it’s less conspiracy thinking, and more of an excuse. I.e. if you believe people you dislike are pedophiles, that justifies whatever actions you take against them. One reason  that pedophilia has been one of the bible thumpers go-to demonizing attacks of LBGTQ people.

  28. 28.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 1:29 pm

    I’ve been thinking about this R political tactic of projection lately.  (My  thoughts  are likely boring or obvious, and naive.  No harm in skipping. )

    It’s one of those low down Republican tactics that in the past never occurred to me could be a conscious strategy by a giant political organization in cahoots with big media.  They’re aware of  something criminal or immoral on  their side, and know it’s a political weakness.  Old fashioned political strategy:  keep quiet about the whole general issue in hopes it won’t come up.  Today’s Republicans:  accuse Democratic candidate of it  to neutralize the power of the truth to hurt the  R candidate.  Individuals who are abusers do the same thing to their victims, though it’s not always clear whether it’s conscious or unconscious projection. But on this larger scale it also works to corrupt what’s socially acceptable, not just to voters.

    Maybe it comes from those dishonest tactics that twisted unscrupulous lawyers have long used to downplay and confuse the truth.   It’s a shame that it’s now considered acceptable training by big reputable law firms, and in politicians’ tactical use of the internet and msm.  Especially because it seems to be leaking  into regular people’s ‘social discourse’  and is sometimes accepted, even on the left, instead of being called out as a tactic of abusers.  I really hate to see the distortions of logic that some lawyers are trained to use being treated as acceptable in discussions on the internet or face to face.

    (This isn’t an attack on lawyers.  [The ones I know as friends are good fair people who’re more dedicated to service than I am.]   I’m forever grateful to the lawyers in the U.S. (and this blog)  for their clarity and commitment and example of decency during the last four years.)

  29. 29.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 1:30 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Heh.

  30. 30.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 1:33 pm

    @e julius drivingstorm:

    Nicklaus is a rich and well-connected man. I’m not sure how much slack we should cut him, if any, for living in a Republican bubble.

  31. 31.

    Bex

    October 31, 2020 at 1:33 pm

    Trump sounding very low energy in MN.  He even dragged out the big beefy guy with tears in his eyes whopper.  He’s got two more “rallies” to go today.  “We’ll see what happens.”

  32. 32.

    Yutsano

    October 31, 2020 at 1:34 pm

    @Yarrow: I will say this: someone at WaPo is being funny. Intentional or otherwise remains to be seen.

    .

    They have known since 2014, when these Republicans won in part by campaigning against the Affordable Care Act, that they should put together their plan to replace it, something that never happened.

  33. 33.

    MattF

    October 31, 2020 at 1:36 pm

    @Yarrow: @Uncle Cosmo:
    I guess what bothers me is that ‘projection’ is not supposed to be a conscious behavior. How can anyone be so unaware that they are using their own bad behavior as a reference for accusations towards others? Isn’t that a puzzle?

  34. 34.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 1:40 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo:

     Because we can’t be any more moral, ethical, or law-abiding than they are. We just can’t. By definition. Otherwise the epistemic cloture*** of their braincase collapses, and they got bupkis.

    Agree.

  35. 35.

    dww44

    October 31, 2020 at 1:42 pm

    @e julius drivingstorm: Yeah, what’s up with this.  I can understand other sports figures endorsing Trump (not surprised about Favre)  but am genuinely disappointed with Nicklaus’ endorsement.

    Like my SO who is no liberal but did vote for Obama twice and Clinton in 2016 says, ” How could anyone who can see vote for Trump?”  And we both remark when seeing polls,… “there’s no way Trump should have 43% of the electorate at this point.”

    Are they so blind they can no longer see the truth?  I guess the GOP ads painting all Democrats as evil socialists and communists  gives me the answers to my own question.  It certainly is proof that the entire GOP has lost its marbles.

  36. 36.

    Nancy

    October 31, 2020 at 1:43 pm

    @Yarrow:

    Seems like it does say that. The violent path is a direct quote although the speaker, exec director of the Natl Repub Senattorial Committee,  appears not to specify the particular kind of violence: “We’re in, we are in it. And we have a very distinct path, and it’s a good path. I mean, it’s a violent path; it’ll take a toll on all of us,” (Kevin) McLaughlin said.

  37. 37.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 1:44 pm

    @Yarrow:

    The next round of GOP is going to be really fucking nuts … the current set of GOP will be replaced by even more crazy people. Eventually, the oligarchs are going to have no choice but to abandon the GOP.

    Locking them out of the Democratic party though should be a thing. Given that fundraising by Dems is actually quite good – Dem politicians don’t need them anyways.

  38. 38.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 1:46 pm

    English Premier League: Liverpool fall behind 0-1 at home to West Ham United. We’re really feeling the absence of Virgil van Dijk and Fabinho.

  39. 39.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 1:47 pm

    @MattF:

    They are fucked because the hospitals are filling up and even the blue states are having no place for beds. It will drive reality down folks like no other – the 2nd wave is here and just like history past – it will be devastating. Once again, Dems are called upon to fix a shit show that the Republican party has started due to its incompetence and corruption.

    Let this goddam cycle end. I hope these GOP voting sons of bitches will get a dose of reality so hard that it is burned into their memories on who ignored this and let it run wild.

  40. 40.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 1:48 pm

    @Calouste:

    All of them, Katie

  41. 41.

    MattF

    October 31, 2020 at 1:50 pm

    @cain: Unfortunately, that underestimates both the right-wing craycray and their lust for power.

  42. 42.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 1:51 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    How does that include the latino and black men who have come out for Trump? Is it loss of status as well?

    Ice Cube and Lil Wayne are making all kinds of defense for their allegiance – fuck them – black and latinos are dying at higher rates than white people thanks to COVID.

  43. 43.

    jonas

    October 31, 2020 at 1:51 pm

    Fun to think about how we learned today that Trump and Barr did with Turkey the exact thing Trump and his fans are falsely claiming Joe Biden should be in prison for doing,

    Projecting like a supernova. Every single damn time. It’s unbelievable. Like I’ve said before, it’s virtually assured that Trump has spent four years using an unsecured private email server and was actually born in Kenya. Oh, and dollars to donuts Barr’s DOJ has found a way to “spy” on the Biden campaign.

  44. 44.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 1:52 pm

    @MattF:

    @cain: Unfortunately, that underestimates both the right-wing craycray and their lust for power.

    I’m mostly thinking of the Fox News watching supporters who are in an information bubble. You can’t deny reality about COVID – you have Donald Trump Jr. talking about how cases are nearly at zero, but all around them they are likely going to see it is a shit show out there.

    They likely won’t be as motivated to vote (I hope!)

  45. 45.

    MattF

    October 31, 2020 at 1:52 pm

    @jonas: I’ve always wondered about that Trump Tower in Nairobi.

  46. 46.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 31, 2020 at 1:58 pm

    @Sister Golden Bear: I’m willing to bet there are a number of repressed gay/bisexual folks in their rank.

    IMO the truth is more complicated. I believe human sexuality is distributed along the gay/straight axis  (and probably along many other axes as well), and that very few people are 100% heteroerotic or 100% homoerotic. I conjecture that a lot of the more adamant religious homophobes draw their belief system tightly around themselves because they are terrified of their own homoerotic impulses, and only their God can rescue them.** Eventually those impulses erupt into the light of day and are acted upon flamboyantly – or tamped down by invoking even more self-destructive behavior (e.g., substance abuse, violence). /JMO

    ** Analogous to the first and second step of 12-step programs.

  47. 47.

    jonas

    October 31, 2020 at 1:58 pm

    It will drive reality down folks like no other – the 2nd wave is here and just like history past – it will be devastating.

    I’ve seen interviews with Trump supporters who have lost family members to COVID still expressing skepticism about the pandemic (“Well, the hospital *said* mom died of COVID, but who knows about those doctors. I think ours was from Industan or some shithole country…”). Nothing — NOTHING will move his hardcore base. He won’t get any independents, and that’s what I think will be his undoing on Tuesday, but these people will be on a ventilator gasping their last breaths and they’ll still be saying it’s all a hoax.

  48. 48.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 2:05 pm

    @cain:

    One perspective –

    Enriquez is one of millions of Latinos who will (or already have) cast a ballot for Trump this year. Nearly a third of Latinos routinely vote for Republicans in American elections, and the Trump campaign’s appeals to them show an understanding of their unique worldview, one rooted in deeply held beliefs about individualism, economic opportunity, and traditional social values. Across nationality, class, immigrant experience, and age, Trump-voting Latinos have one thing in common: a different vision from other Latinos of what it means to be American—and they believe their liberal counterparts and the broader public just don’t understand that.

    “It all boils down to understanding that you are in charge of your own kind of predicament,” Enriquez told me. “America, we’re really at the crossroads of either self-governance or being dependent on the government—and Hispanics know very well which decision they need to be making.”https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/trump-latinos-biden-2020/616901/

    Seems like some overlap with white Trump voters. This could be the coalition for the repubs going forward.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    October 31, 2020 at 2:07 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Exactly zero, in my opinion.

  50. 50.

    e julius drivingstorm

    October 31, 2020 at 2:07 pm

    @dww44:

    I dunno. Maybe Trump tells Nicklaus when they play golf what Putin will do to him and his family if he doesn’t run our foreign policy the way Vlad wants. I’m sure if you or I played golf with The Donald we’d also be persuaded whatever the real story is. Lindsey Graham had an amazing turnaround during just one round (well, amazing if he were a Mitt or a Jeb or somebody with some kind of a rudder).

  51. 51.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 31, 2020 at 2:10 pm

    @cain: How does that include the latino and black men who have come out for Trump? Is it loss of status as well?

    My conjecture attempts to explain the phenomenon for the great majority of Trump supporters. It can’t explain them all.

    I’d guess prominent Trump-supporting POC are voting their (large) bank balances, with a dollop of contempt for their brethren who never made it up from poverty (“I did it, why couldn’t you?” – overlooking, as the successful of all “tribes” so often do, the overwhelming factor of sheer luck in their success).

    The manager of a grocery store where I often shop, AA in his (I’d guess) 40s, told me three years back that he’d voted for Trump. He said he wanted to “shake up the system,” put a “businessman” in charge. He seems to be a hard worker and a good manager. We don’t speak much these days, a nod and a hello … but if I see him in the next couple of days I might ask him whether he got what he thought he’d voted for.

    That answer your question?

  52. 52.

    jonas

    October 31, 2020 at 2:10 pm

    @Bex: He even dragged out the big beefy guy with tears in his eyes whopper.

    As someone pointed out on Twitter, that story was so corny (and transparently made up) it sounded like satire written for a Lincoln Project ad or something.

  53. 53.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 2:10 pm

    @bluehill: Seems like some overlap with white Trump voters. This could be the coalition for the repubs going forward.

    You find those people in the black and indian community as well. Heck, I would say I used to subscribe to that mentality until I realized that is just me supporting white supremacy.

    It never made me vote Republican though.

  54. 54.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 2:15 pm

    Mo Salad Mo Salah is fouled by a West Ham defender, and equalises from the penalty spot. Liverpool 1-1 West Ham.

    ETA: And they go in at halftime with the game delicately poised.

  55. 55.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 2:15 pm

    @cain: There’s another piece about white men that like Trump’s response to the coronavirus. Several different theories, but I found this one interesting.

    In Strangers, some of the Louisianans Hochschild interviewed were upset that women were competing for men’s jobs and that the federal government “wasn’t on the side of men being manly.” Some of her male Kentucky interviewees, especially those who have a family history in coal, feel even more strongly that men’s rightful place in the world is slipping away.

    Men in this community, she told me, “are starved for a sense of heroism. They don’t feel good about themselves. They feel like they haven’t done as well as their fathers, that they’re on a downward slope.” Coal jobs have evaporated, and liberals, they feel, are making enemies of white men. “Their source of heroism, of status, is humming; it’s fragile,” Hochschild says. This analysis comports with some polls of Trump voters. An Atlantic/PRRI poll conducted in 2016 found that Trump supporters were more likely than Hillary Clinton supporters to feel that society “punishes men just for acting like men.”
    As far as their leader’s pandemic response, Hochschild’s Kentuckians feel that Trump is doing the best he can, and as good of a job as possible under the circumstances. Though her subjects are worried about catching COVID-19, many see it as one of the unfortunate but acceptable risks of life. Confronting the coronavirus is a way to show stoicism and to feel heroic again. “I’ve heard it said that ‘This is hitting older people, and I’m an older person, but it’s really important to get back to work, and I’ll take the hit,’” Hochschild said. Her subjects think they can handle the virus just like Trump handles everything. “He’s a two-hamburger-a-meal guy,” she said. “He’s kind of a bad boy, and they relate to that.”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/10/white-men-coronavirus-trump-approval/616780/

  56. 56.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 2:17 pm

     

     

    @cain: Country Club/Chamber of Commerce types used to call the shots in the Virginia republican party, but this past decade they have been marginalized by a coalition of tea party cranks and evangelical dominionists. Eric Cantor lost his 7th Congressional seat in a primary in 2014. Two years later Congressmen Rigell of the 2nd and and Hurt of the 5th retired. They were both relatively young, but they both chose to return to their prosperous business instead of kowtowing to the radicals. The first two districts went Democratic in 2018, and it looks like the 5th will flip this year.  And last year the General Assembly went blue, on a map gerrymandered by republicans.                At this point the Chamber of Commerce types are hanging back, watching the train wreck. They may regain control after a couple more cycles, but it will be a hollowed out party. Republicans haven’t won a statewide race since 2009, and I doubt they win one this decade.

  57. 57.

    debbie

    October 31, 2020 at 2:22 pm

    Amy Siskind (“The List”) on FB:

    KENTUCKY‼️- 1,448,377 have voted, 76% of the total 2016 vote.
    by party affiliation:
    Dems – 716,947
    Reps – 643,079
    No Party – 88,351
    Turnout is 43% for Dems, and 41% for GOP per @joesonka
    C’mon Kentucky. Do this! END MCCONNELL! Vote @AmyMcGrathKY

  58. 58.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 2:25 pm

    @bluehill:

    As far as their leader’s pandemic response, Hochschild’s Kentuckians feel that Trump is doing the best he can, and as good of a job as possible under the circumstances.

    I suppose I can agree with the bolded part, but people who know anything about it know that everything Trump did got in the way of the fight against Covid-19.

  59. 59.

    narya

    October 31, 2020 at 2:26 pm

    happy blue moon, everyone!

  60. 60.

    jonas

    October 31, 2020 at 2:28 pm

    @bluehill: Tom Nichols had an interesting piece in the Atlantic a few months ago on the seemingly paradoxical admiration by these “manly” men for Trump, who is transparently such a spoiled, fragile WATB. The problem is that their notion of manliness is less Gary Cooper or Sean Connery (RIP) or even John Wayne and more a noxious combination of stunted adolescence, military cosplay, and racial and economic grievance.

    Joe Biden, by contrast, is a real man.

  61. 61.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 2:31 pm

    @debbie: 

    Kentucky Dems tend to cross-over in high numbers. Many of them are more historical Dems then modern-day Dems. I would love to be pleasantly surprised.

  62. 62.

    Sab

    October 31, 2020 at 2:36 pm

    CNN had an Asian American reporter accosted by two white guys asking her if she spoke English.

    She challenged them for racism.

    I think a better approach is to ask them “Have you been drinking?”

    Probably true and much harder to defend.

  63. 63.

    The Lodger

    October 31, 2020 at 2:39 pm

    @bluehill: Oh, FFS. If these guys want to be heroes, they should join the fire department.

  64. 64.

    Humanities Prof

    October 31, 2020 at 2:39 pm

    @debbie: What Baud said.

    Democrats have had a big registration edge in Kentucky for a very long time, but it usually turns out to be a paper edge only. A lot of registered Kentucky Democrats are very loyal Republican voters.

    I mean, the numbers are still nice to see, and all, but party ID in Kentucky doesn’t mean what it does elsewhere.

  65. 65.

    trollhattan

    October 31, 2020 at 2:49 pm

    Come January [fingers crossed] the world’s autocrats are collectively going to wonder what the hell just happened with the US. Monster-embraces-monster will not be the State Department’s one and only marching order.

  66. 66.

    gwangung

    October 31, 2020 at 2:50 pm

    @Humanities Prof:I mean, the numbers are still nice to see, and all, but party ID in Kentucky doesn’t mean what it does elsewhere.

    Well, yeah. Kim Davis.

  67. 67.

    trollhattan

    October 31, 2020 at 2:52 pm

    @Sab:

    “Do you think it’s sad when cousins marry?” is a good go-to. Yes, it will whiz right past their thick pates but is a handy deflection.

    “Uh…wha?”

  68. 68.

    narya

    October 31, 2020 at 2:53 pm

    Okay, I liked the Connery/Bond movies as much as anyone, but his comments–multiple times–that it was okay to hit women really soured me on him.

  69. 69.

    Ruckus

    October 31, 2020 at 2:55 pm

    @MattF:

    I’d bet they think that if they are doing this, their opponents must be doing it as well, because if all the republican politicians they know are doing it, it’s impossible for them to know that they are corrupt and to think no one else is. Even as the basic premise of conservatism is to take away rights, labor and property from the “out” groups.

  70. 70.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 2:56 pm

    @jonas: That article was insightful, humorous and depressing. Seems like the freedom they want is to be an unchecked a-hole.

  71. 71.

    James E Powell

    October 31, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    @bluehill:

    For all their Manly Hero mythology, those guys sure do a lot of whining.

  72. 72.

    Anoniminous

    October 31, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    @Sab:

    Texas telling Navajos to “go back where they came from” is a state wide joke here in NM

  73. 73.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 3:01 pm

     

     

    @cain: M.D. Russ, made a scathing critique of the republican party under trump in an article for conservative internet magazine Bearing Drift, titled “Trump is the Republican President.” Examining the question, did trump hijack the republican party? Russ concluded no, “Trump just answered the casting call.”   Russ compared the current party to the Israelites, condemned for their idolatry to wander the Wilderness until a generation had passed away. He was being metaphorical, but I liked the sound of that.

  74. 74.

    jeffreyw

    October 31, 2020 at 3:08 pm

    @The Lodger:

    Oh, FFS. If these guys want to be heroes, they should join the fire department.

    If they did join the FD I’m afraid we would see an uptick in arson.

  75. 75.

    mrmoshpotato

    October 31, 2020 at 3:08 pm

    Remember – you can’t spell “corrupt motherfuckers” without T-R-U-M-P.

    ETA – or “corrupt mobsters”

  76. 76.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 3:09 pm

    @jonas:

    Tom Nichols had an interesting piece in the Atlantic a few months ago on the seemingly paradoxical admiration by these “manly” men for Trump, who is transparently such a spoiled, fragile WATB.

    Most of these admirers are much like Trump himself. Fragile, damaged souls who pretend a manliness that they do not really feel.

    Trump attracts damaged people who want to be led as his staffers. The people who quickly resign are not perfect, and some of them are as repulsive as Trump, but most of them have more of a sense of self and are repulsed by Trump’s demands of loyalty and often mindless fealty.

  77. 77.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 3:10 pm

    Diogo Jota scores! Liverpool 2-1 West Ham!

    Goal disallowed upon VAR review. Liverpool 1-1 West Ham. Feh.

  78. 78.

    mrmoshpotato

    October 31, 2020 at 3:12 pm

    @Amir Khalid: SAD!

  79. 79.

    Sebastian

    October 31, 2020 at 3:13 pm

    Do we have a thread for the shit that’s happening in Texas? Can we please, I don’t want to bring this into the two BJ Pet Calendar and Charity posts.

    GOP trying to invalidate 100,000 curbside votes in Harris Country. Drew notorious rightwing judge. Thread:

    Texas Republicans have asked a federal judge to throw out 100,000 ballots in Harris County cast through curbside voting. They drew Judge Andrew Hanen, one of the most notoriously partisan Republican judges in the entire federal judiciary. This is alarming. https://t.co/VODOZrCoUF
    — Mark Joseph Stern (@mjs_DC) October 31, 2020

    And then motherfucking Vanilla Isis swarmed Kamala’s bus with 20-30 Trump flagged pickups, trying to run the bus off the road. They rammed a staffer’s car. Cops outnumbered and refused to act. Blueline wearing cop said “not my jurisdictions”. There are a bunch of threads and vids.

    Here is a video of the Texas MAGA trump supporter trucks harassing the Biden-Kamala bus and ramming a Biden volunteer.
    This was a convoy of over 100 trump supporters doing this all day
    WTF

    SHARE PLEASE pic.twitter.com/mv3xb8tFF2
    — ALT-immigration ? (@ALT_uscis) October 31, 2020

  80. 80.

    Bill Arnold

    October 31, 2020 at 3:15 pm

    @Yarrow:

    It’s always projection with Republicans. An enterprising reporter could go look at Republican accusations against Democrats, especially the QAnon stuff, make a list, and start investigating Republicans for those things. There will be plenty to find.

    If anyone does this, please do not stop once you’ve find one instance [of ?projected malfeasance? what to call it?); it is possible/likely that there are multiple instances, and the easy-to-find ones will probably be found first.

  81. 81.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 3:16 pm

    Diogo Jota scores — again! Liverpool 2-1 West Ham!

    No VAR review this time! Yay!

  82. 82.

    Sebastian

    October 31, 2020 at 3:17 pm

    @bluehill:

    They are idiots and morons and brutes.

    We have always had them and we should accept that. But accepting their existence is not accepting their behavior and right now we are accepting it by denying that these people exist.

  83. 83.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 31, 2020 at 3:20 pm

    @Baud: Kentucky Dems tend to cross-over in high numbers. Many of them are more historical Dems then modern-day Dems.

    State license plates ought to read

    KENTUCKY

    More DINOs than Jurassic Park!

    (I grew up in one of them thar on-claves just beyond the Baltimore City line.)

  84. 84.

    Ruckus

    October 31, 2020 at 3:21 pm

    @cain:

    How can you say that fund raising by dems is quite good? I mean ActBlue has only gone up about 125 million in the last couple of days – since I last posted how they are doing.

  85. 85.

    trollhattan

    October 31, 2020 at 3:21 pm

    @Sebastian:

    Cripes. Where was Secret Service during all that?

  86. 86.

    Bill Arnold

    October 31, 2020 at 3:22 pm

    @Yarrow:

    QAnon is the GOP’s future. It’s a stupid af cult but it’s real and it’s going to affect all of us.

    It will need to be disassembled/redirected, and this will not be easy; will require sustained effort for at least several years.
    And also, global heating will start slowly breaking noticeable things this decade, like agriculture, and there will be other more acute fracturing events, and QAnon will need to [be helped to] adapt.

  87. 87.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 3:23 pm

    @trollhattan: Neither Biden nor Kamala were near the incident.  The Secret Service doesn’t protect all campaign events.

  88. 88.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 3:24 pm

    @Sebastian: Some more from the thread you linked:

    Mark Joseph Stern  @mjs_DC

    Judge Hanen has already scheduled an emergency hearing for Monday morning—without even giving Harris County a chance to file a response brief. This, too, is extremely concerning. It looks like he may be rushing to throw out 100,000 disproportionately Democratic votes.

    Texas Republicans are deploying the theory—recently endorsed by Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh—that only state legislatures have authority over elections. Because the Harris County Clerk implemented drive-through voting, Republicans say all 100,000 ballots must be tossed.

    Two partisan federal judges are already trying to nullify thousands of Minnesota ballots under this radical theory. I am deeply concerned that Judge Hanen, too, will use it to disenfranchise 100,000 Texans on the eve of Election Day. This is frightening.

    Texas Republicans have asked a federal judge to throw out 100,000 ballots in Harris County cast through curbside voting. They drew Judge Andrew Hanen, one of the most notoriously partisan Republican judges in the entire federal judiciary. This is alarming. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20401146/sd-tex-20-cv-03709.pdf

    Republicans are racing to federal court because they have lost in state courts (so far). The Texas Supreme Court, which is entirely Republican, refused to halt curbside voting in October when the GOP claimed it was illegal.

    Texas Supreme Court Refuses to Shut Down Drive-Thru Voting
    More than 70,000 Houston-area voters have cast their ballots from their vehicles and thousands more will do so after the Texas Supreme Court on Thursday denied a bid from Republicans to shut down d…
    courthousenews.com
    2:28 PM · Oct 31, 2020·Twitter Web App

    I want to clarify one point: While I said “curbside voting” in this thread, the better term is “drive-through voting.” Though most of us may use these terms interchangeably, they’re different procedures in Texas, and Republicans are specifically going after drive-through voting.

    Thread also has links to articles.

  89. 89.

    Sebastian

    October 31, 2020 at 3:26 pm

    @Baud:

    Are you sure? I read Kamala was on the bus but it was Twitter so nothing official.

    I also read that Kamala and Joe cancelled events.

  90. 90.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 3:26 pm

    @Aleta: Sorry I can’t edit out the redundancy that (don’t understand why) got copied in.  Sorry.

    -WG or AL — delete that comment if you can…. thanks

  91. 91.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 3:27 pm

    @Sebastian: I read about once cancelled event in Austin, but I don’t know if Kamala was attending.

    https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/democrats-cancel-central-texas-events-after-trump-supporters-surround-follow-biden-bus-on-i-35/

  92. 92.

    Sebastian

    October 31, 2020 at 3:27 pm

    @Aleta:

    Thanks, I didn’t want to post the entire thread because there was also the bus story.

  93. 93.

    Amir Khalid

    October 31, 2020 at 3:27 pm

    Full-time score at Anfield: Liverpool 2-1 West Ham.

    When you walk through a storm, hold your head up high,

    And don’t be afraid of the dark …

  94. 94.

    Roger Moore

    October 31, 2020 at 3:31 pm

    @jonas:

    I think a huge part of the whole thing is that Republicans respond to external signals.  They mistake bluster for strength, prayer for belief, and ostentation for taste.  Is it any wonder they look at Trump and see what they think a rich, successful, manly man?

  95. 95.

    Ruckus

    October 31, 2020 at 3:32 pm

    @The Lodger:

    Do you think they would qualify for the fire dept?

  96. 96.

    germy

    October 31, 2020 at 3:33 pm

    [Trump smacking the bag of cocaine out of Don Junior’s hand]

    I said white POWER, you idiot!

    — The Volatile Mermaid (@OhNoSheTwitnt) August 25, 2020

  97. 97.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 31, 2020 at 3:34 pm

    @Sebastian:

    It looks like that staffer’s car (white SUV) moved into the lane the truck was in. Otherwise, how would that truck have moved into the right-hand lane from the right? It’s a small shoulder and dirt would’ve been flying. We don’t see that in the video

  98. 98.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 31, 2020 at 3:34 pm

    I’m struck by Republicans’ willingness to throw out huge numbers of ALREADY CAST votes on the theory that excessively late changes to voting laws are too confusing to voters.

  99. 99.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 3:34 pm

    OT National lockdown in the UK

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced a second national lockdown for England as the UK passed one million Covid-19 cases.

    Non-essential shops and hospitality will have to close for four weeks on Thursday, he said.

    But unlike the restrictions in spring, schools, colleges and universities will be allowed to stay open.,,,

    The lockdown is due to last until 2 December, the prime minister said at a Downing Street news conference.

    [Takeout dining] will be allowed to stay open as pubs, bars and restaurants close and people are being told they can only meet one person from outside their household outdoors.

    Meanwhile, the the alternative universe known as Trump’s America, the Orange Menace insists that the pandemic is a hoax, no big deal, or a conspiracy between Joe Biden and China to hurt Trump’s supposed rescue of the US economy.

     

  100. 100.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 3:35 pm

    @Aleta:

    Despicable! Does this mean that the “drive-through” voters can revote in person on election day? I would think such a blatant, vote suppressing court order might very well backfire.

  101. 101.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 3:35 pm

    @Aleta: I guess the good news is that it must mean the repubs know it’s really close. I think Harris County was one of the county’s where Abbott’s one dropbox nonsense was going to have a disproportionate impact. The temporary county clerk came up the idea of drive-through voting locations throughout the county, which is probably a big reason 2020 votes cast has already exceeded 2016’s number. Dailykos has a writeup about him.

    Congratulations to Texas for passing the entirety of its 2016 vote total today with more than 9 Million votes already in, with 1 more day of in-person voting left today and 5 more days of mail-in-ballots receiving and drop offs.

    Bloomberg: Texas Beats Total 2016 Vote Count Four Days Before Election Day

    In a sign of the passions sparked by the U.S. presidential race, Texas has surpassed its total 2016 vote count four days before Election Day.

    Through Thursday, more than 9 million Texans had cast ballots, compared with 8.97 million four years ago, a record high at the time. Neither party knows who will benefit most from the surge, but it has put the reliably Republican state in play as a full-out battleground in the campaign’s final days.

    The biggest jewel in that achievement is Harris County, home to the 4th largest city in the nation, Houston, and a population of almost 5 Million people.

    Mostly responsible for the incredible early voting turnout in Harris County was County Clerk Chris Hollins, who came up with creative ways to maximize early voting in his county.

    Hollins faced the problem that Republican Governor Greg Abbott, via court intervention, had successfully limited mail-in-ballot drop boxes to just ONE in each county.  Imagine, ONE mail-drop-off box for a county with a population of almost 5 Million and very large, 1,700 square miles, an area larger than Rhode Island.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/10/30/1990981/-Texas-passed-ALL-of-2016-voting-numbers-Harris-County-exploded-thanks-to-County-Clerk-Chris-Hollins

  102. 102.

    Bill Arnold

    October 31, 2020 at 3:36 pm

    @MattF:

    I guess what bothers me is that ‘projection’ is not supposed to be a conscious behavior.

    Some Republican operatives do use projection-based accusations (usually false) as a means of softening known, or known to be soon to be released, or at risk of being released dumps of true reports of Republican malfeasance.
    If you spot this sort of projection, take notes of the people involved (or connected to them). They are the dangerous ones, with potentially some talent for mass manipulation. (They are at least following a playbook.)

  103. 103.

    Dan B

    October 31, 2020 at 3:36 pm

    @bluehill: The irony is that policies supported by the Chamber of Commerce, and others, have made each generation less well off than the previous, and heroism used to encompass being a pioneer and entrepreneur.  Instead they stick to what they’ve always known.  On top of that their understanding of money is that there is a fixed amount.  Therefore if someone “undeserving” gets some there is less available for everyone else.

    They must be clueless about where all the tech trillions came from.

  104. 104.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 3:38 pm

    euters @Reuters · Oct 30
    Madame Tussauds in Berlin loaded its wax effigy of Donald Trump into a dumpster, calling it a ‘preparatory measure’ ahead of the election

  105. 105.

    Feathers

    October 31, 2020 at 3:39 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo: I’m going to throw in another layer of complexity. There’s a sexuality side of this, of course, but also a psychological one. We know that psychological symptoms are determined by culture. There was a fascinating New Yorker article some years back about how newly diagnosed schizophrenic patients who believed they were being watched were now reporting that their observers were part of a Truman Show/Matrix sort of panopticon, whereas therapists used to see C.I.A./Men in Black scenarios. Likewise, someone growing up in the evangelical churches has been hearing since childhood that they are evil

    sinners. And that gays are evil. So if they feel some sort of inner turmoil, they attribute it to the devil and sinners and the gays.

    So there’s not just gay, the sexual orientation, but “gay” the evil, sinfulness I’ve heard about my whole life and also how I’m a terrible, terrible sinner and going to hell.

    Know an exfundie who went to Liberty College.  Said it was a cesspit of undiagnosed mental illness that people were trying to pray away. I thing there is as much of that as there is closet cases.

  106. 106.

    Dan B

    October 31, 2020 at 3:41 pm

    @jeffreyw: My little hometown had the world’s largest match factory, Ohio Blue Tip, and a fire department that set abandoned houses on fire for “practice”.

    Ie: Your theory may be good.

  107. 107.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 3:41 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    What I don’t get is how an incessant whiner can be misconstrued as strength-either manly or womanly.

  108. 108.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 3:42 pm

    @Brachiator:  It’s England, not the UK. Wales is in the middle of a two week “circuit break” lockdown, which will end on 9 Nov.

  109. 109.

    Feathers

    October 31, 2020 at 3:45 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Apparently the staffer was behind the bus. The truck was riding up on its bumper, so SUV went to see if they could pass the bus. There was room, but when they tried to get back in their spot, the truck shoved them out of it. Huge swarms of trolls trying to push the story you are telling.

  110. 110.

    Feathers

    October 31, 2020 at 3:47 pm

    @pamelabrown53: People are being forced to listen to his whining. That’s close enough to power for this bunch.

  111. 111.

    germy

    October 31, 2020 at 3:47 pm

    Texas Republicans have asked a federal judge to throw out 100,000 ballots in Harris County cast through curbside voting. They drew Judge Andrew Hanen, one of the most notoriously partisan Republican judges in the entire federal judiciary. This is alarming. https://t.co/VODOZrCoUF— Mark Joseph Stern (@mjs_DC) October 31, 2020

  112. 112.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 3:48 pm

    @Yarrow:

    It’s England, not the UK. Wales is in the middle of a two week “circuit break” lockdown, which will end on 9 Nov.

    Yep. Fortunately, the quoted text says “England” and there is a link to the story itself. Northern Ireland and Scotland also have their own arrangements with respect to the lockdown.

  113. 113.

    Roger Moore

    October 31, 2020 at 3:48 pm

    @Geminid:

    Russ compared the current party to the Israelites, condemned for their idolatry to wander the Wilderness until a generation had passed away.

    To pick a nit, it wasn’t idolatry that got the Israelites stuck in the desert for 40 years; it was lack of faith in God’s powers.  Moses sent a scouting party ahead into Canaan to see what the place was like.  The scouts brought back tokens of the land’s fertility, but also stories about how fearsome the dwellers there were.  Most of the scouts said they would never be able to conquer the Promised Land.  Only Joshua and Caleb said that the same God who had rescued them from Egypt would also help them conquer Canaan no matter who was currently living there.  When the people sided with the rest of the scouts rather than Joshua and Caleb, God condemned them to spend the rest of their lives in the desert, leaving the conquest to the next generation.  Only those who had retained their faith in God’s power would be allowed into the Promised Land.

    This actually seems like a more just punishment than many God meted out in the Torah.  It wasn’t just condemning people with a random horrible punishment for some minor transgression.  The people denied God’s power to get them into the Promised Land, and in return He refused to use his power to give it to them.  Only the people who had faith in that power were able to benefit from it.

  114. 114.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 3:49 pm

    Sheriff Jim Crow goes wilding

    Alamance County sheriff’s deputies and Graham police repeatedly pepper-sprayed people participating in the “I Am Change” march to the polls organized by Rev. Greg Drumwright on Saturday afternoon.

    A racially diverse group of about 200 people walked with a police escort from Wayman’s Chapel AME Church to Court Square, where they held a rally encouraging people to vote. …

    Before the speeches concluded, Alamance County sheriff’s deputies began dismantling the sound system and telling the crowd to disperse.

    The deputies and police officers initially used pepper spray after telling people to clear the road. Deputies and officers later used pepper spray to force people off the courthouse property.

    Read more here: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article246861942.html#storylink=cpy

    the story is very incomplete, but this is fuckign unbelievable

  115. 115.

    Dan B

    October 31, 2020 at 3:49 pm

    @Bill Arnold:  Agriculture is already in trouble in the plains states.  A friend of a friend says that Nebraska has been underwater for much of the year – and there was that derecho.  We’re not hearing about this between Trump and Covid there is no room for much else in the headlines.

  116. 116.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 31, 2020 at 3:49 pm

    @Feathers:

    That’s entirely plausible and probably what happened. I think a lot of people just accept what they see at face value because that’s what they want to see, which explains some the apparent bad faith BS on Twitter. Trump supporters also accept what they see on video because Trump good. If it were the other way around they would be making all sorts of excuses

  117. 117.

    RSA

    October 31, 2020 at 3:55 pm

    @jonas:

    these people will be on a ventilator gasping their last breaths and they’ll still be saying it’s all a hoax.

    The Onion is on it.

    JACKSON, TN—Insisting through coughs that he refused to let the physician politicize his death, local conservative man Paul Welles reportedly begged his doctor Friday to “tell the world I also had asthma” before dying of coronavirus…

  118. 118.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    October 31, 2020 at 3:57 pm

    @germy:

    I’m reading that the Texas Supreme Court and the SOS said drive-through voting was fine, so wtf is their case?

    Also this from that thread:

    Could Harris county argue that since the GOP in Texas has already tried to nullify drive-thru voting, and lost, that the matter has already been decided and falls under the doctrine of res judicata? Just a thought.

    IANAL, so I wonder if this would work?

  119. 119.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 3:59 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    What I don’t get is how an incessant whiner can be misconstrued as strength-either manly or womanly.

    When he’s not whining he’s often a bully.

    But we have all seen people, from pundits to regular folks downplay, ignore or excuse Trump’s misbehavior.

    I was recently listening to a talk radio host clearly and with exasperation and some sadness lay out all of Trump’s lies about the pandemic and the Coronavirus. And even though he never said anything negative about Trump himself, one of the other on-air personalities fumed, “Well, you just hate Trump.”

  120. 120.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 3:59 pm

    @Dan B: I’ve long wondered how they continue to vote against their own interests. Same when I read stuff about minorities that support Trump. Actually that has me more confused.

    I feel pretty confident that his middle class supporters have not seen much improvement under his leadership and probably could make a case that their lives are worse now. My guess is they a get a psychic benefit of feeling like their team is winning. Kinda of like obsessive sports fans. Added bonus with Trump is that he’s going to make sure that there’s some group that they can dump on, so they won’t feel like they’re at the bottom.

  121. 121.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 4:01 pm

    @Brachiator:  The pandemic and the different approaches by the leaders of the various devolved nations in the UK have highlighted just how much Boris Johnson is functioning as the PM of England rather than of the UK. The devolved nations generally have had better results in tackling the pandemic. The crap handling of it by Johnson vs the better handling of it by Sturgeon seems to have increased support for Scottish independence.

  122. 122.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:01 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I have the same question.  You normally don’t get to have a second chance, but I don’t know if there’s something different here.

    This judge is nuts, but ultimately it’ll be the appellate courts and the Supremes that will make the decision on these ballots.

  123. 123.

    bluehill

    October 31, 2020 at 4:06 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Trump has his army and they’re dressed in blue. Blue lives matter flags have started supplanting U.S. flags at Trump rallies. Flag of the new confederacy.

    Claim: An ‘anti-Black Lives Matter’ flag replaced the American flag behind President Trump during a Waukesha campaign rally
    As the 2020 election heads into its final days, a Facebook post is claiming that President Donald Trump replaced the American flag with an “anti-Black Lives Matter” flag at a recent Wisconsin rally.
    At issue: A Thin Blue Line flag that was prominently featured behind Trump at an Oct. 24 rally in Waukesha. The flag essentially is a black-and-white version of the American flag, with a single red stripe replaced by a blue one.
    That blue stripe is meant to symbolize police officers as the “thin blue line” between order and chaos.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/28/fact-check-thin-blue-line-flag-prominent-trump-rallies/6058924002/

  124. 124.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 4:06 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):   FWIW, This from the Statesman, published last night, explains a bit more about what happened.   (Doesn’t answer the questions.)

  125. 125.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 31, 2020 at 4:09 pm

    @e julius drivingstorm: He chooses who he associates with.

  126. 126.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 4:10 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    This actually seems like a more just punishment than many God meted out in the Torah. It wasn’t just condemning people with a random horrible punishment for some minor transgression. The people denied God’s power to get them into the Promised Land

    I don’t see this as just at all. And it reinforces the most noxious aspect of religion, believing in nonsense despite all evidence.

    Also, I suppose, the 40 years of wandering in the desert lets a generation of doubters perish and ushers in a new generation with more true believers.

  127. 127.

    Yarrow

    October 31, 2020 at 4:12 pm

    @Baud:  FWIW, I heard a piece on the radio about this court challenge. They said it was using the same reasoning as the ones that got tossed out previously.

  128. 128.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:13 pm

    @Feathers:

    HAH! What a great reply!

  129. 129.

    MisterForkbeard

    October 31, 2020 at 4:17 pm

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I think the ‘argument’ is that while drive-through voting might be totally legal, the county clerk can’t make that decision and the Texas Legislature is supposed to do it. Therefore, toss ’em all.

    Yes, it’s complete bullshit.

  130. 130.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 4:21 pm

    @Yarrow:

    The devolved nations generally have had better results in tackling the pandemic. The crap handling of it by Johnson vs the better handling of it by Sturgeon seems to have increased support for Scottish independence.

    Yep. Boris Johnson’s bungling of BREXIT, which affects the whole of the UK, also seems to be intensifying desire for independence.

  131. 131.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 4:22 pm

    Yamiche Alcindor @Yamiche 2h
    Obama going after Trump in MI: “He’s still worrying about his inauguration crowd being smaller than mine…He’s still talking about that. Does he have nothing better to worry about? Did no one come to his birthday party when he was a kid? Was he traumatized? What’s with crowds?”

    Don’t ask me why, but I have a feeling that birthday party line is gonna land

  132. 132.

    bucachon

    October 31, 2020 at 4:23 pm

    From the nyt

    President Trump predicted on Saturday that the presidential election would not be decided on Tuesday, warning that “you’re going to be waiting for weeks” and suggesting — with no evidence — that “very bad things” could happen while states are counting ballots in the days after Election Day.

     

    it’s not that he’s suggesting-with no evidence- that bad things will happen, it’s a threat that bad things will happen. The evidence is already there

    tho I must admit I’m wildly optimistic. of early voters in Texas (more than all that voted in 2016) 30% are new voters. That is a really good sign

    take care all!

  133. 133.

    Bill Arnold

    October 31, 2020 at 4:24 pm

    @Sebastian: 

    Texas Republicans have asked a federal judge to throw out 100,000 ballots in Harris County cast through curbside voting.

    Not counting votes is coup behavior. I hope that judge appreciates that. It will not be forgiven if he rules that way, especially if it helps the Republicans retain control.
    Oh for fuck’s sake; in Texas there are drive through liquor stores. Drive through voting (which is what this is about) should be fine, in Texas.

  134. 134.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:24 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Well, my city of El Paso just went into a 2 week lock down (curfew, masks and fines), plus the Convention Center has been turned into a field hospital.

    I’m gobsmacked that anyone can ignore reality in favor of “you just hate Trump”.

  135. 135.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 31, 2020 at 4:27 pm

    @Feathers: Interesting. I’ll add your take to the others in my thought stream & see where it all leads. Thanky kindly!

  136. 136.

    Calouste

    October 31, 2020 at 4:28 pm

    @Brachiator: Yep. Two more months to go until Brexit is really going to hit. The UK has been in a transition period so far, where things mostly went on like they did before. But come 1/1/21, the UK is really going to be a third party as far as the EU is concerned, and as there still isn’t any kind of negotiated agreement, the shit is going to hit the fan.

  137. 137.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:28 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Haha.  I have to work so I’m missing the show.

  138. 138.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:28 pm

    @Baud:

    I refuse to believe that a judge could be so partisanly corrupt that he’d invalidate voters’ votes without, at least a fig leaf of redress.

  139. 139.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:30 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Drive through voting was approved the the GOP secretary of state in Texas and the Texas Supreme Court.

    This judge is awful even grading in the GOP curve, but thankfully he won’t be the last word on the subject.

  140. 140.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:31 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    This one is.  Probably the worst of the bunch that we have evidence of.

  141. 141.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 4:33 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: this story’s starting to get picked up. Good.

    Zachery Eanes @zeanes 26m
    Can confirm now that an Alamance News reporter was arrested by police while taking photographs at the protest. Arrests began happening shortly after protesters took an 8 minute moment of silence in the street in honor of George Floyd.

    Alex Danvers @AlexDanvers2017
    They pepper-sprayed babies today. They pepper-sprayed a three year-old. This is how much they want to keep you from voting. Fuck them.

  142. 142.

    MisterForkbeard

    October 31, 2020 at 4:35 pm

    @bucachon: “Bad things will happen”.

    Like armed Trump supporters trying to drive the Biden/Harris bus off the road and causing a car accident. Oh wait, that was literally today.

  143. 143.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 4:35 pm

    @Roger Moore: It could be that M.D. Russ doesn’t exactly know Exodus. But it may be that the analogy of trump to the Golden Calf was just too good to pass up.   Russ wrote a dynamite article, well worth reading. I’d link to it if I wasn’t a fat fingered digital dinosaur.

  144. 144.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:37 pm

    @Geminid:

    To be fair, The Ten Commandments didn’t explain that part of the story very well.

  145. 145.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:37 pm

    @bucachon:

    I live in Mountain Time and I am optimistic that at midnight, my time, Biden will have won.

    Midnight champagne toast planned.

  146. 146.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 4:39 pm

    is he trying to drive his howler monkeys over to Biden?

    Daniel Dale @ddale8 · 10m

    Trump: “Biden is a hateful man. You can see it in the way he angrily shouts his speeches.”

  147. 147.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:41 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Exactly! In the (sort of) words of Gandalf: “This will not stand”!

  148. 148.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 4:41 pm

    @Yarrow:  (This is the reporter of the Austin Statesman article, so similar to some points he makes at the end of that.)

    Chuck Lindell @chucklindell

    It would take a monumental leap of logic (illogic?) for the Texas Supreme Court to invalidate over 117,000 votes cast in drive-thru polling places in Harris County. Bear with me:

    The court rejected 2 GOP-let bids to shut down drive-thru voting last Friday. By then, about 75,000 votes had been cast from cars. More than 42,000 new drive-thru votes have been cast since.

    Neither of those 2 GOP challenges sought to eliminate votes. Now the court is being asked to toss out 117,000+ votes, including 42,000 cast since the court COULD have acted but DID NOT.

    It would take an incredible leap in logic for the court to invalidate 42,000 “illegal” votes that were cast due to the court’s failure to act last week.

    That said, I’m watching this case like crazy, because all these voters trusted their government — executive and judiciary — to protect their votes.

  149. 149.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 4:43 pm

    @Aleta:

    Don Cruse @doncruse (Texas Appellate Lawyer)

    Replying to @chucklindell
    I was more than a little surprised the response wasn’t due yesterday so they could deny on today’s list, if they didn’t have the votes. Having the response due late on Friday sets up a weekend order or needless uncertainty Tuesday about whether 100,000+ should try to vote again.

     

    Don Cruse @doncruse
    Oct 28

    People who don’t want your vote shouldn’t get your vote

  150. 150.

    Bill Arnold

    October 31, 2020 at 4:44 pm

    @bluehill:

    Blue lives matter flags have started supplanting U.S. flags at Trump rallies. Flag of the new confederacy.

    I’d call that blue lives matter flag background color for the stars and dark stripes more gray. Gray, to be clear, was the color of the uniforms of the Confederate military.
    (If that’s not what you were saying.)

  151. 151.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 4:46 pm

    TX state lege Rebublican

    Sam Stein @samstein
    It would be reassuring to see one Republican with a prominent perch, especially a Texas Republican, say that this effort to throw out 100,000 ALREADY CAST curbside votes is patently absurd and outright harmful.

    Sarah Davis @SarahforHD134

    Replying to @samstein
    I am an elected Texas Republican…not sure if I have a prominent perch…but this effort is patently absurd and outright harmful.

  152. 152.

    pamelabrown53

    October 31, 2020 at 4:47 pm

    @Baud:

    How can a Federal judge (is he Federal?) invalidate ballots that include state and local candidates? What am I missing? States Rights!!!

  153. 153.

    karen marie

    October 31, 2020 at 4:48 pm

    Off topic – sort of – someone on twitter posted a GK Chesterton quote from The Man Who Was Thursday about Americans. I went to Librivox to see if they had an audio version of the book – they do! I wasn’t paying attention and didn’t hear the quote I had seen but I was doing other things and not really listening. I listened next – more closely – to Chesterton’s What I saw in America. Wow – the more things change, the more they stay the same. Published in 1922, it describes an America that is still largely recognizable. I was still doing other things and missed large swaths, so I plan to re-listen to it later when I have leisure to focus.

    Trump is a fucking criminal. Unbelievable he has even a chance in hell of being re-elected.

  154. 154.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 4:49 pm

    @Aleta:  “needless uncertainty Tuesday about whether 100,000+ should try to vote again”

    Isn’t  that possibly what Rs might want to do?  Uncertainty can lead to discouragement or giving up.  (Depending on the person.)  Or to unrest.

    Or is it a waste of energy to wonder about this?

  155. 155.

    David ?Booooooo!? Koch

    October 31, 2020 at 4:49 pm

    Super strong appearance by Barack Obama lacing into Trump like no other. Biden was there for it. When Barack Obama talked about Trump as a child maybe upset about the attendance at his birthday party it was a savage burn. That will get under the thin skin. https://t.co/d7mgmXKH0v

    — Barbara Malmet (@B52Malmet) October 31, 2020

  156. 156.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:50 pm

    @Aleta:

    The new case is in federal court.  The Texas Supreme Court has been OK as far as I know.

  157. 157.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 4:51 pm

    @bluehill:

    [facepalming]

    but it sort of makes sense. They strongly want to continue the family tradition of whatever their father was doing – and are having trouble adapting. To their credit, the world has changed much more rapidly in the past 30 years than it has ever in the past and it’s hard for people to keep up.

  158. 158.

    Baud

    October 31, 2020 at 4:51 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    I don’t know.

  159. 159.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 4:53 pm

    @Geminid: I never understood the chamber of commerce types – they should have been lobbying the feds to help small businesses, they should be actively going after McConnell – whta is the point of the chamber if it doesn’t represent small businesses exactly?

    Is ideology so bad that they would not speak up for the primary constituency they represent?

    I would also say the same for the members of the chamber, I would be pissed that they are not working on my behalf.

  160. 160.

    Brachiator

    October 31, 2020 at 4:54 pm

    @Calouste:

    But come 1/1/21, the UK is really going to be a third party as far as the EU is concerned, and as there still isn’t any kind of negotiated agreement, the shit is going to hit the fan.

    Worried MP: Boris, the shit is about to hit the fan.

    Boris Johnson: No problem. Let me just pull over a bigger fan.

  161. 161.

    germy

    October 31, 2020 at 4:54 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Two trucks just drove past my house. Gadsden flag waving, blue stripe flag (also known as the anti-BLM flag) and regular stars ‘n stripes.

  162. 162.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 31, 2020 at 4:55 pm

    @pamelabrown53: @Baud: The plaintiffs would have to allege a violation of a federal right occurring due to the state procedure.

  163. 163.

    WaterGirl

    October 31, 2020 at 4:55 pm

    @Aleta: All better.

  164. 164.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 4:57 pm

    @Geminid:

    I would prefer they never came back – just build a new party out of the Democratic party. The brand is soiled – a new party needs to emerge with a new name and a new attitude.

  165. 165.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 31, 2020 at 4:57 pm

    @cain: Chambers of commerce don’t really represent main street small businesses.  This is especially true for big city and state-wide chambers.

  166. 166.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 4:59 pm

    @Sebastian: So they are cosplaying Mad Max, huh? Assholes. Of course the police are going to turn a blind eye, they are all in cahoots.

  167. 167.

    Nora

    October 31, 2020 at 5:01 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:  And I’m wracking my brains trying to figure out what federal right they could possibly allege is being violated: the right to keep other people from voting?

    Throwing out 100,000 already cast votes is a big fucking deal, as Joe Biden would say.  That shouldn’t pass under anyone’s radar.

  168. 168.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 5:03 pm

    @pamelabrown53:”invalidate voters’ votes without, at least a fig leaf of redress.”

    If the judge really does dare to invalidate the votes,  is it possible he could order the county to make arrangements for people to vote again ‘properly.’

    Unreasonable and  nearly impossible to do on a short deadline, but GOP operatives would hope that the difficulty and confusion would reduce the number of Harris Cty votes.   And perhaps they hope that the label of “illegal votes,” or else  the confusing red tape to prove identity and voter registration and affirm that they voted once by drive through, would scare people from voting again.

    Seems like  voter confusion and tangled court arguments, rather than clarity,  might be the goal if the GOP wants the Supreme Court to be involved in deciding the election.

  169. 169.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 5:04 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I so wish in the aftermath and when Texas moves blue that when they look at the votes thrown out it was mostly Republican.

    Of course, without shame they would try to recognize it – and the judges would allow it. There will be no sense of fairness or justice, it is all corruption. That’s why their projection of “activist judges” without a trace of irony.

  170. 170.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 31, 2020 at 5:05 pm

    Kevin M. Kruse @KevinMKruse 5m
    As a civil rights historian, it’s been an interesting day watching scenes of a mob chasing a bus in one southern state and a sheriff pepper spraying peaceful marchers in another.

  171. 171.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 31, 2020 at 5:08 pm

    @Nora: The argument that they likely making is that the drive-up procedure somehow lacks protections that are present in other voting procedures.  Thus they are more likely to be subject to tampering, etc.  Therefore, people’s right to a fair and secure election is not being protected.

    Note:  I am neither making nor defending this argument.

  172. 172.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 5:11 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Jehovah seems like a dick to me.

    In contrast, I will talk of the Mahabharata – where Duryodhana the head of the Kauravas – can show you how you can follow all the rules of dharma but still be an utter dick. Petty asshole.

  173. 173.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 5:13 pm

    @cain: On twitter Stephen King suggested that Republican voter suppression could be countered if  Democrats register as Republicans.  I suppose to confuse the GOP’s use  of computers to analyze gerrymandering lines  (Wouldn’t really work but …).  Also, won’t gerrymandering be in the hands of the Democrats this time?  (I doubt he was serious.)

  174. 174.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 5:15 pm

    @Brachiator: Yep. Boris Johnson’s bungling of BREXIT, which affects the whole of the UK, also seems to be intensifying desire for independence.

    The English brexiters are gonna be pissed that they will need a passport to go to all the places that they went before. Meanwhile, more EU people will be happily be showing up and improving the economy while England stagnates. But hey, that’s what they wanted.. let England be England.

  175. 175.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 5:16 pm

    @cain: I am certainly not advocating for the Country/Club Chamber of commerce wing of the republican party. I’m just describing what I’ve seen regarding recent party history in Virginia.

  176. 176.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 5:16 pm

    @Baud: thanks.

  177. 177.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 5:18 pm

    @Bill Arnold:

    Agreed. Like the seating of the Amy – people will not forget and there will be a political cost. I think it will make people even more angry and they will vote like hell in the midterms.

    The state legislature should be very worried if that move is made because the backlash is coming. A lot of Republican votes were pulled as well. It will be even more if they find out that the judge caused a non-trivial votes that could have swung the election.

  178. 178.

    cain

    October 31, 2020 at 5:19 pm

    @pamelabrown53:

    History will judge him and his family legacy.

  179. 179.

    Miss Bianca

    October 31, 2020 at 5:19 pm

    @bluehill: I am so fucking sick of being asked or expected to try to “understand” Trump voters. I guess because I live surrounded by them, and familiarity really does breed contempt. They never, ever, ever, seem to be asked or expected to try to understand liberals.

    I mean, I’m sure Arlie Hoschild, or whatever her name is, is doing  work she believes in. but to me it’s just one step up from the Cletus Safaris.

  180. 180.

    David ?Booooooo!? Koch

    October 31, 2020 at 5:20 pm

    @germy:

    Two trucks just drove past my house. Gadsden flag waving, blue stripe flag

     

    Moar “shy” Dump voters

  181. 181.

    Aleta

    October 31, 2020 at 5:21 pm

    del

  182. 182.

    sdhays

    October 31, 2020 at 5:24 pm

    @cain: I so wish in the aftermath and when Texas moves blue that when they look at the votes thrown out it was mostly Republican.

    It’s not a crazy possibility. It seems to me that drive through voting is something older voters are more likely to use, and they tend to skew Republican.

  183. 183.

    WaterGirl

    October 31, 2020 at 5:25 pm

    Clearly not a single Republican had a mom that taught them that if you have to cheat to win, you haven’t really won.

  184. 184.

    sdhays

    October 31, 2020 at 5:29 pm

    @WaterGirl: Unfortunately, when the prize is power, you actually have won even if you did cheat.

  185. 185.

    Miss Bianca

    October 31, 2020 at 5:36 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    I think a huge part of the whole thing is that Republicans respond to external signals.  They mistake bluster for strength, prayer for belief, and ostentation for taste.  Is it any wonder they look at Trump and see what they think a rich, successful, manly man?

    Americans in general – but Republicans particularly – constantly, consistently, conflate symbol with substance. Thus flag worship = patriotism, etc.

  186. 186.

    karen marie

    October 31, 2020 at 5:38 pm

    @cain: It sounds like you’re suggesting that the Democratic party turn over their decent reputation to the damaged Republican party and start from scratch.

    Sounds nuts to me.

    Let Republicans find their own way out of the wilderness.

  187. 187.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 31, 2020 at 5:47 pm

    @karen marie: I doubt he is saying that.  I think he is advance a theory that is out there.  That the GOP can just fuck off and the right and left portions of the Democratic Party split to form two parties with reasonably sensible views.  Lefties could join the new Left Dems, and Never Trumpers could make common cause with the new Center-Right Dems.

    I say, let’s drive the GOP into irrelevance, and then let any new alignments happen naturally.  But let’s drive the GOP into irrelevance first.

  188. 188.

    Miss Bianca

    October 31, 2020 at 5:47 pm

    @Brachiator: OK, that made me laugh. Not sure it should have, but it did.

  189. 189.

    sdhays

    October 31, 2020 at 5:49 pm

    @karen marie: I think he means for the Democratic Party to become so dominant that it eventually splits into two new parties, with the rotting hulk of the Republican Party wasting away by the side of the road.

    Since the Republican Party will remain dominant in at least some parts of the country, I don’t think a new party is likely to ever rise from the ashes. But hopefully(!!!) the Republicans are looking at another long time out of power in national politics like after 1932. It’s well overdue.

  190. 190.

    Sebastian

    October 31, 2020 at 5:54 pm

    @bluehill:

    This is my shocked face.

    I am glad it’s in the open now and that they are all tagging themselves.

  191. 191.

    Ruckus

    October 31, 2020 at 6:23 pm

    @Dan B:

    They must be clueless

    You could have stopped there.

  192. 192.

    gwangung

    October 31, 2020 at 6:37 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: The smarter progressives are advocating this. Destroy the Republicans first. THEN the politics will naturally become more progressive.

  193. 193.

    karen marie

    October 31, 2020 at 7:38 pm

    @gwangung:   “Progressives” are fucking morons.

  194. 194.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 7:43 pm

    @gwangung: I don’t think the republican party can be destroyed, except insofar as it it destroys itself. But I believe the Democrats now have a real chance to deliver good governance, and if they do, it’s possible the Democrats will hold Congress and the Presidency for the next twelve years, even twenty.

  195. 195.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 8:31 pm

    @Geminid: The idea of splitting the “progressive” and moderate wings of the Democratic is a dream of progressives, based on what I personally think is a misconception- that we can’t have needed progress because of moderates like Mark Warner and Chuck Schumer, not to mention Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin. This will be a big debate for the next the next few months if not years. But  I think about numbers I saw in a Wason Center poll of Virginia registered voters last November. People were asked about issues before the upcoming General Assembly like the ERA, a $15/hr. minimum wage, universal background checks for gun purchases, and other issues. The first three had 75% or better backing. Also asked was self-described ideology. Of the three choices on the more liberal side, 7% self-described as Very Liberal, 13% self-described as Liberal, and 23% said they were Moderate, Leaning Liberal. I just don’t think Virginia Democrats will split, just because there really isn’t that much difference between Tim Kaine and Elizabeth Warren, or Mark Warner and say, Ron Wyden. On some issues, yes. On most, no. But it will be a vibrant debate, and we’ll see plenty of it in this forum.

  196. 196.

    Geminid

    October 31, 2020 at 8:56 pm

    @Geminid: Virginia is hardly typical as a state; there are more African Americans, military, civilian federal workers, 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, and more highly educated than average. But the same demographic and political trends that turned Virginia blue are manifesting themselves in states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas.

  197. 197.

    Jado

    November 2, 2020 at 1:00 pm

    Here’s the real tell-

    “At the White House, Mr. Trump’s handling of the matter became troubling even to some senior officials at the time.”

    Ooooohh, even SENIOR OFFICIALS are horrified by Republican malfeasance? They had gotten used to the regular normal Republican malfeasance but EVEN THEY became troubled? WELL. That must have been some serious Matter Handling going on there.

     

    Are reporters used to standard ordinary republican malfeasance as well, that they toss in this little throw away line here about corruption and possible treason? It would be irresponsible not to speculate…

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