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Reader Interactions

282Comments

  3. 3.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    Nice to feel proud of my birthplace for once! This obviously is headed to recount territory, but I’d much rather be in our position on this one than theirs.

    Great job, Georgia Dems. Let’s keep this up for the Senate runoffs. And send some help south for future races once the Senate contests are done, please. Florida clearly needs to learn from you.

    Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpūblicānam dēlendam esse īgnī ferrōque.

  4. 4.

    Mousebumples

    Ben Wikler (@benwikler) tweeted at 0:40 AM on Fri, Nov 06, 2020:

    Public service announcement: If you, like me, are going to bed now but want a text message to wake you up when Biden officially wins and Trump loses, text “Fired” to 50409 and @resistbot will take care of you t.co/G6ljTZPSyi

    (twitter.com/benwikler/status/1324602435843903489?s=03)

    I’m confident, but when it’s officially called, I won’t need to find out on Twitter. ?

    Just posted in the overnight thread but thought it was worth reposting here.

    For international Juicers, resistbot is on Twitter, so that might be an option for you?

  8. 8.

    p.a.

    ???????? If GA finishes real close, I’m not sanguine abt military vote; traditional trends hard to break, despite bounties, ‘losers’, Stars and Stripes…

    And we’ll still have to endure: ProjectRecount:KickingandScreaming

     

    Let’s go PA: make everything else academic enterprises.

  13. 13.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    @raven: Oh no, that’s awful news. Hope he recovers.

    @p.a.: I know we have to take polling with a mine of salt this cycle, but Trump is not popular with either enlisted servicemembers or the officer corps. I haven’t looked at all the numbers but it’s my understanding Trump has done consistently awfully with the military in the voting that’s already been counted this cycle, to the point where we probably haven’t got much to worry about from their outstanding votes. Worth remembering a lot of servicemembers are POC now too.

    Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpūblicānam dēlendam esse īgnī ferrōque.

  14. 14.

    Jeffro

    I saw a tweet that said, to the effect, “John Lewis’ former district putting the final nail in trumpov’s coffin is just too poetic for words, and Stacey Abrams driving it home is karmic beyond belief.”

    Sigh.  We miss you, Rep  Lewis, and THANK YOU, Ms. Abrams!

    Now then…let us savor.

  17. 17.

    Matt McIrvin

    The ballots that are still out there aren’t just military. And my impression is that it’s anybody’s guess how many will even turn up.

    Georgie is deep in recount land, in any event. But it’s unlikely to determine the election result.

  20. 20.

    TS (the original)

    I haven’t been posting online since Tuesday night – was just too scared to say anything. So pleased you have all come through it but devastated that so many still voted for trump.

    Meanwhile the latest Georgia figure I saw has Biden up 1096. I’ve seen wide variations of what votes are left to count.

    These are the links I got from BH

    One

    Two 

  25. 25.

    Mousebumples

    Local groups organizing for the Senate runoffs in Georgia. It’s a thread but most of the references are in this tweet-

    ? Black Womxn Running My Fresh Ass Mouth? (@TheWayWithAnoa) tweeted at 5:15 PM on Thu, Nov 05, 2020:

    electoral you got @NewGAProject @BlackVotersMtr also @ignitekindred is doing electoral work this cycle. For criminal justice and capacity building there is @southerncenter and @ProjectSouth there’s also @gapeoplesagenda And @WorkingFamilies has a GA state organizing presence now

    (twitter.com/TheWayWithAnoa/status/1324490487521304577?s=03)

  29. 29.

    PaulWartenberg

    @raven: FFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFF

    :-(

    I hope he recovers.

    edited because long strings like that breaks the margins on the blog.

  31. 31.

    Baud

    Watching the media, it’s amazing how they’re finally acting like they should have acted four years ago with regard to Trump.

  32. 32.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Baud: It’s really kind of disappointing, that they’ll only start telling the truth when they detect a shift in power.

  33. 33.

    JPL

    @Baud: PA should be updating soon. Supposedly they counted just under 50,000 votes from the Philly area

    Clayton County finished counting a little after five so Biden’s lead in GA should grow.

  41. 41.

    MJS

    @JPL: Steve Kornacki or someone owes me some sleep, because I was hearing about these 50,000 votes from Philly all night, and finally threw in the towel at 1:00.

  44. 44.

    debbie

    I’m glad news outlets cut Trump off and that they are (politely) calling his statements unsubstantiated, unproven, and other gentle adjectives, but I’d really like someone to name it as lies. While they’re at it, also point out that the mail-in ballots Trump calls fakes are the actual ballots HE TRIED TO DISAPPEAR BY FUCKING WITH THE POST OFFICE.

  46. 46.

    TS (the original)

    @Baud:

    He will keep doing that for the next 4 years. Democrats have no right to win elections, and if their polls were wrong – by gosh a mortal sin.

  49. 49.

    Matt McIrvin

    Kevin McCarthy is taking Trump’s “stolen election” line. Right now, most Republicans are not in lockstep on this. If they do get in lockstep, the media probably flip back to reporting it as “opinions on shape of earth differ” and then we’re in dangerous territory.

  51. 51.

    Baud

    @raven:

    He’s stoking the divisions between the left and moderates.  It’s a real debate, but I’m not someone who trusts Joe’s voice on it.

  52. 52.

    raven

    @Baud: Well don’t listen to him then. Do you think Ossoff and Warnock will be jumping up and down with socialism and defund the police?

  53. 53.

    TS (the original)

    @raven:

    That’s bullshit, that’s not what he said.

    I didn’t listen – but guaranteed that is what he has been saying for years & will continue to say.  Whenever I tune in, he does a both sides discussion followed by all the b.s. of what a great house member he was (20 years ago).

    He helped elect trump & will help elect the next GOP president.

    Edit: He also hates on Hillary Clinton every chance he gets.

    With that –  things are obviously still in too much disarray for me to be posting. Back to lurking & hoping trump disappears & takes MJ with him.

  56. 56.

    Elizabelle

    Good morning, jackals.

    @debbie:  NPR was refreshingly shrill last night.  They cut off Trump’s whinefest, called it unsubstantiated claims, and their first expert pointed out that the paper ballots being counted are not “late” votes as Trump lies, they are actually early ones.  These folks voted early.

    Why can’t more people say that?  It is early votes, counted last.

  58. 58.

    mad citizen

    @Mousebumples: From Cheryl Strayed on twitter, pointing out that Georgia 17 year olds who turn 18 by Jan 5 are eligible to vote.  Get these new voters into the process!  We know Stacey A will be on it.  Phenomenal woman.

  59. 59.

    Baud

    @raven:

    jumping up and down with socialism and defund the police?

    Which almost no prominent Democrat has signed onto.  We have no control over fringe voices that get attributed to us.

  63. 63.

    MJS

    @Baud: MSNBC would be much better served by preempting Joe and Mika and doing the election results in the same way they were doing them last night.

  66. 66.

    New Deal democrat

    I’m not sure I buy Tom Levenson’s analysis of the Congressional races in the post below. When you look at the National Electoral map, Biden won all of the States he was leading significantly in outside of Florida. But his margins in the swing States are off on average by about 3%.

    The only Senate race where there appears to have been a much larger underperformance was in Maine. I checked NC and IA, and the President vs. Senate margins were almost identical. In GA, Ossoff is running only 1% behind Biden.

    So I think the GOP never-Trump vote may only have been about 1%, as a back of the envelope guess. The rest of D underperformance is probably that Trump drew 80-effing-million troglodytes out of the woodwork.

  67. 67.

    WereBear

    @Elizabelle:

    NPR was refreshingly shrill last night.  They cut off Trump’s whinefest, called it unsubstantiated claims, and their first expert pointed out that the paper ballots being counted are not “late” votes as Trump lies, they are actually early ones.  These folks voted early.

    Why can’t more people say that?  It is early votes, counted last.

    Because our press has been bribed with prestigious, high paying, jobs. It’s not just the money, either. It’s the social status. And the way they get to rub elbows with “the great.” And feel “great” too.
     
    Corporate press is never going to choose the side of good, voluntarily. It’s only when good has teeth.

  68. 68.

    zhena gogolia

    @Baud:

    Well, why did they put the Communist Manifesto — cut and pasted straight from the original 1848 edition — into the official platform of the Democratic Party? Huh? Answer me that.

  71. 71.

    Mary G

    @Baud:  I’ve noticed even the FTFNYT has taken to using the word “lied” now in headlines. I’m old enough to remember Dean Baquet saying that we didn’t know what was in Twitler’s heart or some such shit.

  73. 73.

    A Ghost to Most

    Dismiss MJ all you want, but there is some truth to what he says.

    The sparkle pony left went too far left, and the presidential result aside, we lost the Senate, and lost ground in the House. A large amount of reflection is required on the Democrats’ part.

    Good luck with that here

  74. 74.

    hueyplong

    It never ceases to amaze me that people watch Morning Joe.

    Every day I first see a reference here to MJ, my first (incorrect) reaction is to wonder why Michael Jordan seems to be going all Herschel Walker.

  78. 78.

    MJS

    @raven: Thanks, but I’m nowhere near Baud’s TV, so I can’t do that. And what is this “dial” of which you speak? Exactly how old is your TV?

  79. 79.

    SFAW

    @raven:

    It’s called a dial, turn it and he’ll magically go away.

    I normally use my buggy whip to turn the dial, but it’s in the repair shop with my Victrola.

  82. 82.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    Trump’s lead in PA down to below 20K with 160K ballots outstanding.

    I think it’s more like 300K outstanding. I think the current count is 95-96 percent counted, and 100 percent will be approx 7M cast.

  83. 83.

    SFAW

    @MJS:

    Thanks, but I’m nowhere near Baud’s TV, so I can’t do that. And what is this “dial” of which you speak? Exactly how old is your TV?

    It occurred to me that he might be talking about his Marconi wireless, not that newfangled thing known as a “TV.”

  85. 85.

    hueyplong

    @Elizabelle:

    “… first expert pointed out that the paper ballots being counted are not “late” votes as Trump lies, they are actually early ones.  These folks voted early.

    Why can’t more people say that?  It is early votes, counted last.”

     

    Exactly.  I’d add a phrase.  “It is early votes, counted last because the Republican legislature insisted over Dem objections that it be done that way.”

  88. 88.

    John S.

    @A Ghost to Most: Not really. Trump drew a lot of his angry minions out to the polls for one last hurrah. That’s why we’re seeing the result we are.

    The Democrats did not run on a platform of socialism, defunding the police and having tea with communists. Those are Fox News talking points that only the aforementioned cultists believe. And apparently more than a few non-cultists.

    As it looks right now, the Dems keep the House, shaved at least 1 seat off the Senate and won the presidency. It may not be the resounding success that many hoped for, but it’s most certainly not failure.

  89. 89.

    hueyplong

    @raven: No doubt their “courage” will be boosted by Biden’s passing the 300 mark in EVs.  The GOP Senate is half Stephen Miller and half Brave Sir Robin, right Susan?

  92. 92.

    Martin

    Looks like that scheme to shoot up the Philly location where votes are being counted was legit. Arrests made, weapons seized.

  93. 93.

    SFAW

    @MJS:

    Kornacki was saying last night that he thought there were 170,000 ballots to count, but who the hell knows?

    That would imply 97-98 percent had already been counted. Considering the various non-Kornacki sources (incl CNN and AP) are putting it in the mid-95s, I think the dial on his calculator might need tweaking. As I noted earlier, the numbers are currently tracking to approx 7 Million votes counted when all is said and done.

  99. 99.

    Baud

    @Martin:

    I don’t disagree, but we need some of them to try to tamp down the passions of Trump supporters rather than rile them up.

  100. 100.

    Martin

    Jesus fuck. Its been years since I’ve seen Morning Joe. Has he gotten worse? This is intolerable.

  102. 102.

    Butter emails

    @A Ghost to Most:

    Joe’s full of shit. Democrats turned out in record numbers to vote out the clown show. Biden marginally outperformed some of our other candidates due to a paucity of Republicans crossing over to vote out the shitgibbon, but who couldn’t be bothered to vote against the people who have been shining his clown shoes the last 4 years. A record number of people also turned out to pull the lever for Twitter and voted for the other Republicans at the same time. The issue isn’t Democrats. It’s not activists who want universal healthcare. It’s not BLM people who want police accountability. It’s asshats who vote for Republicans.

  104. 104.

    PenAndKey

    @raven: He also mentioned that no diagnosis, but that elevated troponon levels were detected. Damn, am I glad he went in to get checked out because from my own family medical history all I know is that high troponon levels in the bloodstream usually indicate some sort of heart injury.

    We told him last night to not presume it was an anxiety attack despite the timing. I’m glad we did.

  105. 105.

    Martin

    @Baud: You can’t. Thats the problem with this message of ‘you’re being cheated by unseen forces’ – there’s no way to stuff that genie back in the bottle. Once you convince them of it, any  effort to unconvince them simply serves as evidence that you’re  part of the unseen forces.

  106. 106.

    Kay

    @A Ghost to Most:

    It just seems kneejerk to me. They did worse than they thought they would, they were upset, and they decided it was due to certain things they don’t support anyway. One of the complaining House Democrats said we can’t attack “shale”. It’s pretty mainstream in the Democratic Party to attack “shale”. He’s going to have to figure some workaround.

  109. 109.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Baud:

    MJ now slagging Dems. Apparently, we have to meet the standards set by flawed polls. 

    Why doesn’t Morning Joe Blows call up his good buddy Donald?

    I’m sure Donnie has some well-reasoned, coherent thoughts going through his empty, fascist, pumpkin head (Sorry Stan.) this morning.

  113. 113.

    egorelick

    @raven:

    He wants to go to Georgia and help with the Senate runoff. Volunteer to do whatever needs to be done. I can sponsor his living expenses, but he needs to have something to do if he goes.

  114. 114.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Butter emails: The issue isn’t Democrats. It’s not activists who want universal healthcare. It’s not BLM people who want police accountability. It’s asshats who vote for Republicans.

    I’ve tried to keep it positive, yet — dammit, THIS.

    Every damn election thread here over last couple of days has had some wagging tongues  insist that the activists who started off this round of BLM were wrong to use A Certain Term.

    And although I recognize that at least one of the commentors is (I’m pretty sure) Black Like Me, it’s frustrating as hell to see all this anti-activist energy, when we desperately need those voices. We need that energy showing up to vote for Democrats!

    And double-esp. as No Democrats Ran On That Slogan. Not The Squad, and certainly not Smilin’ Joe and ESPECIALLY Harris, “the Cop”.

    It’s literally eating our own to keep saying this, even in these august circles. Even moreso when no one seems to have any ideas on a better slogan — much less seems willing to go back to the BLM activities and tell it to their faces. It’s easy for Spanberger to get on a quasi-private Democratic call and yell about slogans “hurting her election chances,” yet I bet she’d sing a much different tune if she had to speak to those activists in-person.

    I’m sorry to be so negative, yet I’ve been bottling this up for some time.

  115. 115.

    Starfish

    @A Ghost to Most: The Sparkle Pony left can go as far as it likes. The people under 40 do not have time for this nonsense. They have to fix climate change if they want a planet to live on. I love how you all ignore that as one of their most important issues.

  116. 116.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Greta Thunberg
    @GretaThunberg
    ·
    16h
    So ridiculous. Donald must work on his Anger Management problem, then go to a good old fashioned movie with a friend! Chill Donald, Chill!

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    · 22h
    STOP THE COUNT!

  117. 117.

    PenAndKey

    @debbie: It really was too much to hope they’d at least wait until after the election was over, wasn’t it? This absolutely sucks, and I legitimately hate living in a world where my entire political life has been so saturated by right wing violence that, mentally, it’s just an expected background noise of reality at this point. I’m just glad nobody was hurt this time.

    I fully expect we won’t remain so lucky Biden’s whole term, and that my son will grow up with his own experiences to parallel my childhood experiences with the OKC bombing. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

  118. 118.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud:

    It’s always a delicate balancing act between getting progressives to come out while not scaring away moderates.

    True. As you can imagine, there’s a ton of recriminations going on in the Florida Democratic Party right now. One of our up-and-coming progressive reps slammed the party for not associating itself with or promoting the $15 minimum wage ballot initiative, which got the necessary 60% to pass, meaning tons of Reps voted for it.

    Her argument is that FL Dems have watered down their message so much that working people don’t associate the party with looking out for working people anymore. I think there’s some truth to what she says.

    But on the other hand, what flies in that lady’s district isn’t won’t necessarily fly in the Panhandle, just like what works in Rep. Spanberger’s district won’t carry AOC’s. The balancing act you mentioned isn’t going away, and vilifying one group or another for the election results is dumb and counterproductive, IMO.

  121. 121.

    mrmoshpotato

    @MJS:

    MSNBC would be much better served by preempting Joe and Mika and doing the election results in the same way they were doing them last night. 

    C’mon!  Let Kornacki get some sleep. ?

  123. 123.

    Subsole

    @rikyrah: That apology he owed Clinton sure didn’t last long, did it?

    I mean, we knew what they are but it’s still kind of breathtaking to see it in action.

    God, I know it doesn’t matter but I wish I could stand in front of these people and ask them what they got in exchange for all our pain and suffering. If those cocktails Kellyanne poured them were worth all this damned havoc.

     

    Hell. Enough of this.

    We did it.

    We ejected that vile, wretched little thing from OUR white house. We stood up and succeeded where so many other nations haven’t.

    Let’s all be joyful today. We deserve it.

  127. 127.

    Martin

    Updates out of PA have started up again. Very small, no meaningful change, but someone is awake and pushing buttons.

  128. 128.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Yes! We’re living in the most target-rich anti-corruption environment in ages. It’s not too late. That could be a theme in 2022. I’m confident a hair-raising amount of self-dealing will come to light (to add to the staggering mountain of open corruption we already know about!) once the Trumps are ousted.

  129. 129.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’m heartened by a reddit thread about AOC’s tweet criticising Biden for Latino outreach.  Reddit is very AOC friendly, but the general reaction was “it’s complicated.”

  132. 132.

    Cermet

    Anyone that thinks this election wasn’t a fantastic success is both foolish and is the type that believes in unicorn ponies (damn-it, they are more like goats, people.)

    We defeated an incumbent president (very hard to do), gained ground in the Seante and unlike many cases in the past after a wave, lost little in the House. The forecasts were wrong and thinking that they were right but the dems were wrong is BS.

  134. 134.

    Matt McIrvin

    Morning Joe is going to be parroting the “Trump was robbed” line by this time next month.

  136. 136.

    David ?Booooooo!? Koch

    What bothers me is the inconsistency and bias by The Village.

    The Dems just WON but didn’t meet so called expectations so now they call on Dems to make corrections.

    Dump just LOST – A first term president hasn’t lost reelection in a 2 person race since The GREAT DEPRESSION  – HELLO!   Yet no one in the Village is calling on them to make corrections.

    Image if it was the other way around – you think the Village would be dumping on a GOP victory and congratulating the Dems on losing, but not as badly as expected.

    In football, when a team wins the Super Bowl but fails to cover an arbitrary and artificial “point spread” nobody calls on the CHAMPS to make changes.

    Pop the champagne, mother fuckers, we just elected the FIRST WOMAN VICE PRESIDENT and SAVED THE COUNTRY FROM FASCISM.

  137. 137.

    John S.

    @WereBear:

    You know what you call getting 1 point more in a football game? A win.

    You know what you call getting 20 points more in a football game? A win.

    A win is a win. It really doesn’t matter what the point spread is, unless you bet money on the game.

    @David ?Booooooo!? Koch:

    Apparently we reached for the exact same metaphor at the same time. ?

  138. 138.

    cmorenc

    @Baud:

    I’m not so sure about the military vote.  We’ll see.

    Keep in mind that the final Ga differential from the non-military vote will end up not being just ~1000 votes, but probably more like 5,000-6,000 votes once it’s all-in.  Lots of the mlitary vote is already in with the regular vote – only a portion Ga-based military are situated such that they would need to take advantage of the extended return allowance allowed military personel, and even if they do skew Trump, it may not be numerous or predominant enough to overtake Biden’s reglar-vote differential.

    Don’t necessarily assume the outstanding Ga military vote is numerous enough or disproportionally skewed enough to Trump to re-swing the result in Ga to Trump.

  141. 141.

    Matt McIrvin

    The red mirage created by Republican state legislators’ intransigence on early ballot processing in three states has shaped the entire narrative, just as we were worried it might. (Granted the Senate situation is real.)

  143. 143.

    Chyron HR

    @Betty Cracker:

    Her argument is that FL Dems have watered down their message so much that working people don’t associate the party with looking out for working people anymore.

    Nobody made the active choice to vote for Donald Trump because Joe Biden wouldn’t say “$15 an hour” or “kill the police”.  NOBODY.

  144. 144.

    Subsole

    @A Ghost to Most: Well, if the sparkle pony left fucked up, maybe the sparkle pony left needs to check it’s goddamn altitude and go talk to people who don’t get their politics from a patreon channel.

    @Baud: If our collectivist betters could figure out how to sacrifice a little of their clout-scrabbling for the good of the collective, that problem goes away. Not even give up what they want. Just moderate their tone.

    Like, I really want to believe they are sincere and that whole movement is something more than an aesthetic affinity for commercialized anticommercialism as a fashion statement, but damn if they aren’t seizing every chance they can to say exactly that.

  145. 145.

    mrmoshpotato

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    then go to a good old fashioned movie 

    So it has to be a movie that was shot on film?  Nitrate?  Silent?

    What a weird, pumpkin-headed, Soviet shitpile assclown.

  146. 146.

    John S.

    @randy khan:

    Exactly right. Come on, Democrats! Nobody expect us to be loudmouth jerks like Republicans are, but let’s learn how to have just a little SWAGGER.

  147. 147.

    Suzanne

    @Jeffro: I am hoping that John McCain’s state (maybe, possibly) turning blue also has something to do with the fact that Trump trashed him.

    Arizonans loved him. I think they remember.

  149. 149.

    Subsole

    @raven: My TV doesn’t have one of those. At least, not one that’s labeled. What does it look like? Is it the silver vee-shaped thing on top?

  151. 151.

    hueyplong

    @cmorenc: The Atlanta political writer who appeared on MSNBC last night said there could be 8000 military votes and there could be 50.

    I’ll be surprised if provisionals and oversees don’t match/outnumber military votes to be counted, and who knows how many of those military votes will come from people who have lived with bounties on their heads that Trump doesn’t care about.

    I want 306 EVs because Trump is on record calling 305 a steamroll.

  152. 152.

    cmorenc

    @Cermet:

    Anyone that thinks this election wasn’t a fantastic success is both foolish and is the type that believes in unicorn ponies (damn-it, they are more like goats, people.)

    We won the by far most important objective – defeating Trump from a second term and repacing him with an immensely better person with deep experience and, integrity, and decency in Joe Biden.  Without winning the Presidency, the next four years would have been a catastrophically different with Trump continuing in office. True, the disappointing failure to win control of the Senate, especially two unexpected critical losses in Maine and NC, cost us the control needed to pursue a true progressive agenda.  Had those two races gone the other way, we’d be seeing the overall results very differently, even with the unexpected loss of some house seats (because we did nonetheless retain clear control of the House).

  153. 153.

    hueyplong

    @Baud: Absolutely.  We’d be losing our minds right now if networks had called GA and PA and then rescinded them.

    The GOPers did us a favor by mandating that Dem votes be counted last.  Didn’t feel like one Tuesday night, but it does now.

  154. 154.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @A Ghost to Most: It is less about the substance of the messaging than about the quality of the messaging, qua messaging.

    The most important single error this cycle, as so often in the past, was complacency: the assumption that the unacceptability of the status quo, and the uniqueness of the alternative, were both too obvious to require repetitive, cumulative emphasis.

    The second most important error — really first, but only second because it is now decades too late to do anything about it — is the passive acceptance of the framing in terms of individual candidates (such as Trump, or W before him) instead of in terms of the Republican Party, meaning all and each of its sympathizers and adherents.  The opportunity to do this came in 1980; it was not taken and will not come again.

  155. 155.

    Betty Cracker

    @Chyron HR: Biden does support a $15 minimum wage, and nobody who’s a serious candidate for political office says “kill the police,” with the possible exception of the Q-loons. The congresswoman I’m talking about was criticizing down-ticket FL Dems and the party org here in FL. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

  156. 156.

    Emma from FL

    OK. I’m not exactly a fan of MJ, but honestly, all I could find was a segment where he’s discussing what could happen if the Senate doesn’t flip, and he says that Biden would be much better at working with the Senate. What am I missing?

  157. 157.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    “The Culture of Corruption” in 2006! Am I the only one who remembers this? It was a wave year for Democrats.

    The biggest polling miss, IMO, was the generic ballot polling. R or D. They all rely on that and it seems to me it was just wrong. The error was then compounded because they used the House district polls to verify the national and state polling. I did it too. I looked at generic ballot and House district polling and then state and national.

    Anyway. They should wait until they know more before blaming the Lefties.

    Corruption isn’t Left or Right! Perfect! :)

  160. 160.

    SFAW

    @John S.:

    You know what you call getting 1 point more in a football game? A win.

    You know what you call getting 20 points more in a football game? A win.

    Jets fans everywhere read that and scratch our collective head(s) and say “a WHAT?”

  164. 164.

    David ?Booooooo!? Koch

    I’m old enough to remember the polls predicting a significant win for George Fucking Bush in the popular vote and electoral college in 2000.

    It. Didn’t. Happen.

    Not only did he fail to win a majority, but he LOST the popular vote, something that hadn’t happened in over 100 years.  And he only held on to an electoral college win because the Supreme Court stopped a vote count.   Meanwhile the republicans a whopping LOST FIVE senate seats.   Yet the Village immediately said the gop had a mandate.  They never dumped on them for under performing.

  165. 165.

    Subsole

    @randy khan: That’s a good point, and a trap I fell into.

    We didn’t LOSE the senate folks. We failed to take it, but we didn’t lose it. We made gains. Reject Republican framing.

  167. 167.

    WaterGirl

    So lovely to see prominent Dems taking the bait and turning on one another when we should be celebrating that we are close to putting down the rabid dog that has been in the white house for years.

    This election didn’t even vaguely resemble a fair fight, and we won anyway.  We need to keep some perspective about this.

    Also, this is not over yet.  We apparently could get the Alaska senate seat, and we have two fucking runoff elections in Georgia.

    Yet so many people on our side are either peeing in their pants or are discouraged as hell because Trump, who is the head of a cult, had a terrific turnout.  They are what we thought they were, and there are a lot of them.  A shocking number.  Maybe we should turn the fight in that direction rather than attacking each other.  And I’m looking at AOC and others who are pointing fingers and publicly showing their asses in public.

    We won big, not what we hoped, but big, and we are idiots if we allow the Democrats to be depicted as losers in this election.  It is not helping that a number of people are walking around making the big L (loser) sign on their foreheads.

  168. 168.

    Splitting Image

    Wonderful to wake up to news of Georgia coming over the line. A big vindication for Stacey Abrams and a tribute to John Lewis. Georgians just did the man proud.

    Sorry to hear about Soonergrunt though. Hope he gets well soon.

  169. 169.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    But on the other hand, what flies in that lady’s district isn’t won’t necessarily fly in the Panhandle, just like what works in Rep. Spanberger’s district won’t carry AOC’s.

    I don’t know if you see this with your daughter but I see it with my grown children- they identify more with issues than with a Party. Democrats have to figure that out, because it’s going to create conflict. They can either find an issue youngs care about and focus their individual races there, or adopt the youngs issue for the whole Party, but they have to find a way to incorporate issue-based voters.

    So, an example would be “I’m not on the Left in the Democratic Party but I am very good on environmental issues”. Or, “I’m a centrist economically but I do agree with you on student loans”.

  170. 170.

    Cermet

    @cmorenc: And we have shown two critical things besides what I said: we far out number rumpie’s (by 4 million and counting!) and that mail in voting not only works but makes democracy work far better! These are right up there with removing the orange pile of sh%t.

  171. 171.

    topclimber

    @Starfish: Not all, not by a long shot.

    I think all Congressional Dems will rally around some version of the Green New Deal. With the earth on fire and the economy in shambles, it seems like a natural coalition for all wings of the Party.

    Now, if you want to talk about how moderate Dems get nervous when we move from the platitudes about BLM to actually reforming police in their districts, yeah, then the cracks show.

  173. 173.

    SFAW

    @Betty Cracker:

    It took the combined efforts of Bill Clinton and Ross Perot to oust Poppy Bush.

    Except Perot took as many votes from Clinton as he took from Bush. [Various polls/exit polls noted this at the time, back when polls and results were more in line with each other.

    ETA: A topic for another discussion, but: it’s also before Newtie the Adulterer fostered and weaponized hatred for Dems, which (in my opinion) is a significant part of today’s tribal hatred by the RWMFs. Not the only reason for it, of course, but Newtie did his share and then some.

  174. 174.

    Starfish

    @Woodrow/asim: The behavior bothers me.

    At the Balloon Juice meetups that are near me, it was clear that a lot of the Balloon Juice folks where I live are older and possibly more conservative than I am.

    I feel like some younger commenters have come in lately.

    What frustrates me about their attacks on Black Lives Matter is that the folks here trying to give up on it are buying into the conservative framing of various ideas. They are not engaging with these ideas in any meaningful way.

    By saying “defund the police is a bad slogan,” they are not engaging with people doing the work. The people doing the work have moved onto “invest-divest” as you can see here. They are also making progress on some issues like getting the SROs out of schools since the SROs are not doing much good in a lot of places.

    However, the commenters don’t want to engage with the work, they want to be big mad that there are parts of the Democratic party not prioritizing the comfort of white people over the lives of Black people again.

  175. 175.

    different-church-lady

    It’s true that an ugly win is still a win.

    It’s also true that it’s still ugly.

  176. 176.

    Kay

    @WaterGirl:

    So lovely to see prominent Dems taking the bait and turning on one another when we should be celebrating that we are close to putting down the rabid dog that has been in the white house for years.

    I think they can fight. Unity isn’t pretending to agree all the time. It’s honestly disagreeing and deciding to stick together anyway. We’re not that fragile and if we are then it isn’t a real coalition anyway.

  179. 179.

    SFAW

    @Starfish:

    By saying “defund the police is a bad slogan,” they are not engaging with people doing the work.

    The problem is not the sentiment behind the slogan, it’s that the slogan’s wording raises hackles with the (theoretically) reachable persons on the other side. Which leads to having to explain — if you even get that far.

  180. 180.

    Fair Economist

    @Frank Wilhoit:

    The most important single error this cycle, as so often in the past, was complacency: the assumption that the unacceptability of the status quo, and the uniqueness of the alternative, were both too obvious to require repetitive, cumulative emphasis.

    I don’t think that’s it. Our people turned out, big time. The problem is the other side did too, apparently driven by disinformation on social media. We have to figure out a way to counter that.

  181. 181.

    Kay

    @Subsole:

    I’m not sure about anything with those polls, frankly. I’m also not sure about issue polling, which Democrats also rely on. But it’s too soon to tell. I read yesterday that the widely reported and believed stat about white women (majority) supporting Trump in 2016 was incorrect. It was based on exit polls. A lot of white women supported him, but probably not a majority.

  183. 183.

    different-church-lady

    @Kay: It occurs to me the problem is we’re in a situation where there must be ONE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE and if the party does not prioritise on whatever that is for a certain voting block then the party is failing.

    And it’s obviously impossible to do that when each voting block has a different ONE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE.

    Liberals can have just as many resentment driven dyfunctions as conservatives, if not more.

  184. 184.

    SFAW

    @Subsole:

    A point. You get those when you make a touchdown.

    I was talking about “win,” but these new terms are also confusing to me.

    If the Shitgibbon/Rethug senate campaigns were as competent as Jets management and ownership, Biden would have won with 390-plus EV, and a 54 Senator Dem majority.

  185. 185.

    Fair Economist

    @Starfish: Nobody here is disagreeing with the actions to stop or reduce police brutality. The issue is the messaging. The American political system rewards mild words and decisive actions. What we need to do is mouth platitudes about “removing bad apples” and “reducing unneeded police busywork” and then cut the **** out of the budget once in power.

  186. 186.

    Kay

    @SFAW:

    Defund the police is a bad slogan but I also think the idea was poorly thought out and sloppy. Lower income people want police protection and they should get it. They are not only brutalized by police, police don’t serve them to the extent that they serve people in white or higher income neighborhoods.

    Everyone, everyone, wants a safe neighborhood. What they don’t want is to be shot or beaten up or harrassed by police. The whole thing was sloppy and weirdly out of touch with actual people. It was bad thinking, not just a bad slogan.

  187. 187.

    SFAW

    @Kay:

    Democrats have to figure that out, because it’s going to create conflict.

    National polling used to show broad agreement with Dem policy positions, when no party was mentioned. [Not sure if that’s still the case.] As you say, they have to figure out how to make that message stick. [Having a RWMF-compliant MSM makes that much more difficult, unfortunately.]

  188. 188.

    Subsole

    @Starfish: See, I’m really not sure saying people here -who gave of their money and time- “don’t want to engage with the work” and “only care about the comfort of whites” is accurate or helpful. Or am I misunderstanding you?

  189. 189.

    Subsole

    @Kay: Yeah. We all need to just take a derp breath, rejoice in what we won, and come back to it when we have more data to work with.

  190. 190.

    SFAW

    @Subsole:

    Also, what with DeJoy’s mail ballot fuckery, are we sure the polls were that far off, really?

    Not that he didn’t try, but I don’t think DeJoy’s efforts created the disparity in areas such as FL, SC, ME, others.

  192. 192.

    Kay

    @SFAW:

    “Police are racists so you don’t get police protections for your personal safety and property”

    What? How is that fair? Why wouldn’t we insist police do their actual job while at the same time not murdering people? Can we get a higher standard here?

    Everyone wants safety and they should get it! Why wouldn’t they? They want the exact same police services white suburban people get. It’s not a choice between “racist and brutal police” or “no police services at all”. No one wants that choice. It sucks and it’s not fair.

  194. 194.

    Soprano2

    @Woodrow/asim: Every damn election thread here over last couple of days has had some wagging tongues  insist that the activists who started off this round of BLM were wrong to use A Certain Term.

    My take is that the slogan “Defund the Police” is  counterproductive because it doesn’t accurately describe what most of them actually want to do. To anyone who doesn’t follow politics closely, hearing that slogan makes it sound like they literally want to get rid of the police, and for most people that’s a bad thing. I’ve seen many suggestions of slogans that would work better, so it’s just not true that no one has a better idea. Something like “Rethink Policing” would work much better IMHO, because it conveys what you actually want to do and isn’t perceived by low-information voters as threatening to them (I agree that the word “reform” is useless, because it’s been used for decades and not much has changed – it’s toothless). I also agree with the others who say that when you immediately have to explain to people that your slogan doesn’t actually mean what it sounds like it means, that makes it hard to get them onboard. I know that “Defund the Police” has a visceral satisfaction to a lot of activists, but it also means that lots and lots of Democrats cannot actually sign onto using it. IMHO activists need to decide – do they want to use an inflammatory slogan that makes them feel good, or do they want to get large numbers of people onboard with their agenda? I don’t think they can have both. Just my opinion from a slightly more liberal city in an extremely conservative state.

  196. 196.

    Jinchi

    @A Ghost to Most: The sparkle pony left went too far left

    Just to be clear, we nominated Joe Biden for president not Bernie Sanders. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are the party leaders in Congress. And Barack Obama had to deal with a split Congress for most of his term in office.

    And as has been pointed out, we didn’t lose the Senate, we gained seats. We got our hopes up because the polls were so far off. But there was never a guarantee we would retake the Senate. This election was about getting rid of Trump.

    2018 we gained the House. 2020 we gain the presidency. We’re one or two seats away from taking the Senate. This is infinitely better than the last 4 years.

  197. 197.

    Subsole

    @Fair Economist: Kind of like how drill instructors call it “motivation”, but really mean “I will have your ass bellycrawling from here to Hawaii if you screw this up”.

  199. 199.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Yep. It’s definitely a pattern I’ve noticed with my kiddo and the other youngs of my acquaintance.

  200. 200.

    SFAW

    @Kay:

    “Police are racists so you don’t get police protections for your personal safety and property”

    I didn’t see that as one of the driving sentiments by any other than a few LWNJ. Maybe I’m giving the non-LWNJ left too much credit, but I saw it as a shittily-expressed way of saying “the police gotta be taken to the woodshed until they stop killing POC gratuitously.” Which (to my mind) does not mean removing the police from the streets en masse. Doesn’t mean I’m right, just telling you how I saw it.

  201. 201.

    Woodrow/asim

    @SFAW: read again what @Starfish said:

    By saying “defund the police is a bad slogan,” they are not engaging with people doing the work.

    I’m saying the same thing. It’s all well and fine and good to keep saying “wrong slogan” in a damned comment thread online. It’s another to say it to the people who were — and still are! — protesting in the streets, fearing their own lives and the lives of loved ones due to police violence.

    Indeed, as already noted, activities have already moved on from the term. None of our candidates ran anywhere near it.

    Yet so many are so stuck on this one phrase apparently doing so much damage, with so little evidence.

    Funny, I thought we were the Party of facts and data and science.

  202. 202.

    Starfish

    @topclimber: It is natural for people to get nervous that something might change, but people who have it deep in their value system that the police are the good guys that everyone should get along with need to be pushed back on a little and not comforted in this moment.

    Last night, there was a local meeting where some people were proudly discussing how many times they had called the police on noise from a nearby restaurant that was all within the allowable range. At what point are these calls a nuisance? People living in multimillion dollar houses are cheering the police and sending them meals for conducting homeless sweeps. We are going to let people die outside in the cold this winter. The libraries are closed and a lot of homeless services are not there because the church people do not want to catch COVID-19 either. There will be nothing for people living outside until we get down to 20 degrees Fahrenheit. Then, there may be a few warming stations open for a few hours.

    I did not really know of any police abolitionists until a couple of years ago. One of my friends started discussing it, and I thought she was wild. Then I started following Elisabeth Epps who is bailing out most people who have bails under $1,000 that they cannot afford to pay.

    Some cities are paying their police a lot. Then they are paying the victimized families a lot when their police engage in bad behavior. They are investing less in things like schooling and housing. That needs to change. Next year, we have budget cuts across the board except for policing.

  203. 203.

    Subsole

    @Kay: Maybe instead of centering cops, center the neighborhood then. Instead of police reform, call it community safety measures or something. Hell, pay the Lincoln people for the verbiage if we have to.

  204. 204.

    SFAW

    @Subsole:

    Maybe we can get them hired as consultants?

    ANYTHING to get them away from Shea [sic]. Adam Gase would be primo, what with his crazy eyes masking an empty brain.

    What Shitgibbon did to his inheritance, Jets management does to the team.

  207. 207.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Maybe one side benefit of the polling meltdown is people will stop putting stock in exit polls, which were always suspect and will be even more so this year due to vote-by-mail?

  208. 208.

    evodevo

    @PenAndKey: Yep..Even a slight increase in the troponin level will often mean there has been some damage to the heart. Very high levels of troponin are a sign that a heart attack has occurred.Most patients who have had a heart attack have increased troponin levels within 6 hours. After 12 hours, almost everyone who has had a heart attack will have raised levels.

  209. 209.

    dnfree

    @hueyplong:  The same thing I think. First I think Michael Jordan…no, can’t be right…Mother Jones?…seems unlikely…I don’t watch much TV, so often I don’t get it until Mika is mentioned by someone else.

  211. 211.

    bemused

    @SFAW: 
    Who the hell came up with the slogan “Defund the Police” in the first place?

    I don’t partake in pot but I think it’s long overdue to be legal across the country. Maybe it would help mellow out raging trumpers.

  212. 212.

    topclimber

    @SFAW: You may be correct, but the fact still stands that the last first term president to be so big a loser was Herbert Hoover. Even if the argument is a little squishy, maybe we should let the GOP and media figure that out for themselves while we hammer it home and help ease Trump’s death grip on the Republican Party and those white voters who love a “strong man.”

    Or for those who insist on being positive–Joe Biden just did what only FDR did in the past 100 years.

  213. 213.

    SFAW

    @Woodrow/asim:

    You do understand that seemingly-innocuous phrases get perverted and screeched by the RWMF-coddling MSM? Which creates yet another obstacle to getting out the needed message. And “defund the police” is not innocuous, unless you compare it to things like “kill the pigs.”

  215. 215.

    SFAW

    @topclimber:

    Did I disagree with any of that? I was just trying to “correct” (if I’m right, of course) a misapprehension re: Clinton/Bush/Perot.

  217. 217.

    PenAndKey

    @Kay: Also, what with DeJoy’s mail ballot fuckery, are we sure the polls were that far off, really?

    Between DeJoy’s actions and the “statistically anomalous shifting of votes to the conservative right” red shift in vote patterns vs polls Adam noted yesterday, I quite seriously, believe that votes are being tampered with systemically, to the point where the only time we win is when we do so by such large margins the apparent “make the results close but just favoring the GOP” plan isn’t enough. Yes it may be my own biases talking (and in fact, likely is), but I want a serious deep dive done into the ballot counting equipment and software. If we saw this sort of shift overseas we would be calling for a major investigation into tampering. We aren’t immune to that. We know that, yet people always act like it’s the polls that are suddenly wrong, not the votes.

  219. 219.

    Starfish

    @SFAW: Yes, but why are we giving energy to their fears? We can’t be fighting inside their framing. When we let them have the framing, we lose.

    The more time we spend arguing with them that the Democrats are not socialists, the less time we are spending on what the Democrats are doing for you.

    If we have our own Frank Luntz who is out there fixing the messaging, fine. However, sitting here and create the circular firing squad over messaging when we won is loser stuff that makes the party and the coalition weaker.

    Maybe the Democratic Party in more conservative areas is “Healthcare. Healthcare. Healthcare.” They should not be spending all their time engaging with attacks on Democrats being socialists.

    Remember that thing where they asked Biden if he would pack the courts, and he would not bite? Be like that.

  220. 220.

    SFAW

    More good news: PA gap is now less than 5600, according to CNN’s interactive map.

    ETA: It would be great if I could effing read. As Subaru Dianne has noted, Sleepy Joe is leading, not behind, by that amount

  221. 221.

    Jinchi

    @Fair Economist: The issue is the messaging.

    You guys are all really confident that “Defund the Police”, somehow cost Democrats this election. But that was a blip compared to scenes of repeated violence between police and protesters in cities across the nation. Republicans orchestrated a conflict that put police and black Americans on opposite sides and Fox News pushed the racist urban chaos story.

    The right wing sells fear. “Black Lives Matter” was considered too extreme for them. It was framed as a choice between black lives or police lives. Then they asked voters to choose between urban rioters marching on their towns or voting for Trump.

  222. 222.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Soprano2: IMHO activists need to decide

    Feel free to call ’em up and tell ’em.

    To be clear: If it was just once or twice, I’d keep my mouth shut. It’s rather than it’s come up in every damn election thread this week, which tells me we’re doing the “circle the wagons” business to try to shift blame around. Bonus when the Spanberger/Pelosi posturing on same came out, and some folx “mmmhmmm”ed those reported comments.

    We need to stop it. Stop trying to push this narrative, because I’m damn certain it didn’t magically tank the polling.

    If we’d won like we’d expected, this wouldn’t even be a thing, and it’s exhausting for this Black Man to read.

  223. 223.

    Dopey-o

    @Woodrow/asim: Funny, I thought we were the Party of facts and data and science.

    Yeah, because facts and science have worked so well for winning elections ……

    The truth is, moderate centerist voters  are subject to fear-mongering. Elections in America are driven by emotion.

    We leave those votes on the table when we don’t factor their fears into our strategy. GOP lies about “Defund the police” may have cost Biden 3 or 4 million more votes, and at least 1 Senate seat.

    Can’t wait to see the post-mortem on this election. Right after we see the transcripts of Trump’s private chats with Putin. First things first, etc.

    When can we expect the flood of tell-all books by White House insiders?

  224. 224.

    SFAW

    @Starfish:

    Yes, but why are we giving energy to their fears? We can’t be fighting inside their framing. When we let them have the framing, we lose.

    The point is: why make it easier for them to screech about something? There are less confrontational ways of getting the point across. The RWMFs will ALWAYS whine about something, yes, but why make it easier for them when we don’t have to?

  225. 225.

    topclimber

    @SFAW: Sorry if I misunderstood you. I believe historical truth is essential, so you were right about qualifying how Perot “helped” Clinton. It bothers me when folks overlook such nuances on this site.

    When it comes to the great out there, however, unless doing so makes for an egregious misrepresentation, I am all for simplfying things for the media and low-info voters.

  226. 226.

    Subsole

    @Woodrow/asim: How long did it take to move on from that slogan?

    Because if we moved on AFTER it had permeated The Discourse, that doesn’t help.

    Part of it may be that so much Left activism is organic and grows sonewhat spontaneously on ad-hoc structures. It’s more personal, intimate. Which is good! It’s real, and people feel that. But sometimes being real can get you real trouble too if you are speaking to people on a different wave than you.

    We don’t have the massive PR shops our enemies on the Right do. We don’t get to focus-group shit before releasing it into the wild. We either need to incorporate their tactics and infrastructure, or at least figure out how to reduce/nullify them. If you have any ideas would love to hear them, b/c I am ignorant of it.

  228. 228.

    LeeM

    The problem we have with police reform is branding. It seems the right has pushed the negative label “Defund the Police” onto a legitimate movement to seperate social work from law enforcement. Progressives need a clear and simple mantra that gets repeated over and over. Luntz et al have done this marketing for conservatives and it works. The biggest hurdle is that Dem leadership doesn’t march to the same drummer the way Repubs do. If Biden and Harris use the bully pulpit to hammer home a consistant positive and humane message we can garner broad public support and back the BLM movement.

  231. 231.

    Jinchi

    @SFAW: The point is: why make it easier for them to screech about something?

    It’s probably useless to point out that “Defund the Police” was not a talking point that was ever embraced by the Democratic party. It arose organically from protesters in the streets repeatedly mourning the deaths of black men and women at the hands of the police. Take another look at the pictures of Derek Chauvin staring into the camera of an onlooker while he’s strangling the life out of George Floyd. He had every expectation that he could murder a man in broad daylight and get away with it.

    “Defund the Police” was a visceral reaction to that violence. The people chanting it DNGAF about Democratic framing.

  232. 232.

    Subsole

     

     

    @Dopey-o: Fuck them and fuck their book deals. They want to say anything, they can say it in the congressional inquiry.

    Or at trial.

  233. 233.

    Woodrow/asim

    @SFAW: Yeah.

    I also understand that, as a Black person in America, I’m born into a space that expects me to fear so much — and projects its fears onto me.

    You folx — Balloon Juice Commentors — are great at a lot of things. This is my political home, by and large. Learned a lot, over the..wow, when was Shivao(sp), again?

    Yet the focus, over the last few days, on this one slogan, over and again? The desire to opine on a slogan that came from the lived experience of Black folx? That — and I cannot stress this enough — was just an activist concept, not something any politician picked up?

    Man, it’s just too much for me, today. It’s like saying Democrats need to astroturf all of our activism, like the GOP does. Esp. given how a Black Woman did all that damned hard work to push GA over the line.

    Again, I tried to be quiet, but it was in every damn election post here. WTF?

  234. 234.

    Subsole

     

     

    @SFAW: Yeah, but I do see what starfish is saying. Go too defensive and we only ever play for a draw.

    We have to start going hard after the source of our problems. Hit back at the enemy.

    The trick is seeming reasonable while we salt their houses and burn their fields.

  235. 235.

    JML

    @Jinchi:

    I think you’re right about that, but when Ilhan Omar shows up screaming “defund the minneapolis police”…we have a problem. Because now, a back-bencher congresswoman with shady ethics and more than a touch of narcissism is explicitly and intentionally tying the party to that slogan.

    (there’s a fundamental difference between AOC and Ilhan: AOC is good at this and makes very few mistakes. Ilhan makes them all the damn time)

  236. 236.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Subsole: Yeah. The “muddy middle” of the Party needs to stop standing at arms length from movements like BLM, and actually work with them, from jump.

    That’s it. Just be authentically part of the engagement with them, which isn’t the same as endorsing every part of them, and they’ll respond. BLM doesn’t want to hurt the Democratic Party, and can be engaged and be responsive to real discussions on mutual efforts to work together.

    I mean, where do people think folx like John Lewis came from? He, and many other older black folx in Congress, started as activists who had to learn how to moderate and manage engagements/communications.

    That would actually more than suffice. :)

  238. 238.

    Omnes Omnibus

    People who didn’t vote for Biden because of Defund the Police were not ever going to vote for Biden.

  239. 239.

    Subsole

    @Woodrow/asim: So…and I am not happy to say this, but… what if we actually DO need to astroturf a little in order to stop this shit? I don’t like it. I think the weight of the injustice should be enough, but it clearly is not.

  240. 240.

    WaterGirl

    @Subsole: I want the Dems to encourage EVERYONE, even though the voting period is over, to track down their ballot and see whether THEIR ballot was counted.

    I believe there was a lot more fuckery at the post office, and that would tell us how many ballots were mailed but never got counted.

    I believe that is super important information.

  241. 241.

    Zelma

    I imagine that most people saw scads of ads during the campaign and they all sort of run together.  Since I watch limited TV, I saw a much smaller sample.  But I noticed something.  The Rethug ads were purely negative and purely fear-engendering.  “They’re gonna “defund the pollce;”  ” Socialism is coming.”  Also the tone of the ads was ominous to say the least, dark and forbidding.  They were clearly designed to appeal to the lower brain functions

    OK, we know that these were lies but we’re weird.  We’re political junkies.  The average person is not and even if they sort of knew this might not be true, the message got through subconsciously.

    The Democratic ads I saw were almost entirely “positive” in nature.  Even those that warned about the danger to Obamacare were not nearly as dire in tone.  Any psychologist will tell you that fear trumps just about any other emotion.  The Democrats have got to do a better job making people afraid!  Sad but true.

  243. 243.

    Kathleen

    @Baud: What’s significant to me is that they’re carrying the “new narrative”, which tells me Trump has lost support from the people who own the media. Except for his base, he’s lost his “infrastructure” of donors, National Security base, Military and the other string pullers we’re not even aware of. He’s outlived his usefulness. Media’s love of fascist bullies remains. Look for Shiny New Fascist.v2. Coming to a Social Media platform near you.

    ETA: Which is why he’s losing support from fellow Republicans.  This reminds me of the last days of Nixon. He held it all together for a very long time. Then suddenly he couldn’t. It happened very quickly to outside observers. With Trump we’re in Lonesome Rhodes screaming at Marsha to come back while the fake applause machine blares territory.

  244. 244.

    Elizabelle

    @hueyplong:   Yes.  Point the fingers at the GOP legislatures.  Other states can report their numbers much more quickly (and less stressfully).

  245. 245.

    Subsole

    @Woodrow/asim: Thanks for the reply. We clearly have some shit we need to hash out, and I think a LOT of the party (me included) are trying to do it while nerves are raw and data is low.

    Like you said, we need to be sensible and factual about this. We can get it done. We have the advantage of being right.

    As far as interacting with the folks on the front line: do you think we are maybe relying too much on the internet to shape our internal discourse? As a lefty in some red parts of a red state, the net is crucial, but I worry if that congressional spat isn’t twitter drama spilling into/eclipsing actual interpersonal communication.

    Sorry if I am rambling. The last few days have FRIED me.

  246. 246.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay:

    The whole thing was sloppy and weirdly out of touch with actual people. It was bad thinking, not just a bad slogan.

    Though it is clearly not your intention, I think there’s an arrogance in that statement.

    “Out of touch with actual people” sounds a bit like the black people who fear the police, who have every reason to fear the police, who are being murdered by the police, are not actual people.

    I’m sorry, but if I’m at risk of being murdered by the police, or people I know are being murdered by the police – who are ostensibly there to keep us safe – I’m not sitting there wondering if this is a good slogan or not.  I want them to stop killing us.

    The people who marched in the streets brought a lot of very important attention to this issue, and I think we owe them a debt of gratitude.

    Do I think Defund the Police is a great slogan?  No, I do not.  But it sure got people’s attention and there is surely a way forward.

    That’s a long way of saying that I’m not going to second guess the people who are in the foxhole, fighting for their lives, about the words they chose to describe their goal in stopping police violence against black people.

    edit: I hadn’t seen this at #231 when I wrote my comment, but that is what I was trying to say:

    “Defund the Police” was a visceral reaction to that violence. The people chanting it DNGAF about Democratic framing.

  247. 247.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Subsole: We have tons of people eager to work for Progressive causes.

    They need training and focus more than anything — which is where I’m still sad that Obama dropped OFA, post-election. There’s a space here to build up these groups to reshape the political landscape, using tools and knowledge that is too often focused on “pure” election efforts.

    Let’s try doing it the right way, the way healthy to our democracy, before even considering any unethical and ultimately self-destructive efforts, OK?

  248. 248.

    Jinchi

    @JML: Conservative media will hype any controversial comment by any liberal and declare it the foundational principle of the Democratic party. They’ll even invent new ones. Democrats need to learn to deal with that.

    Stop looking for someone to blame. Ilhan Omar isn’t responsible for the outcome of the 2020 election.

  251. 251.

    Kim Walker

    @WaterGirl: I mailed in ballot to PA from Canada. PA has a ballot tracker. I’ve checked several times, but the website can’t find my name. I’ve reported it to Dems Abroad. It could be a data processing issue, my ballot got stuck at the border or shenanigans.

  252. 252.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Subsole: I worry if that congressional spat isn’t twitter drama spilling into/eclipsing actual interpersonal communication.

    You have much of the right of it. Moreover — I’m highly certain Pelosi, at least, really is posturing for the media in her “leaked” statement, which is another aspect of all this.

    There’s the easy way, using Twitter — or any online comms — to posture and demand and prove out whatever bona fides you think you must. That, I think, is a lot of this back-and-forth.

    But there are other uses. For example, many of these activists are already on Twitter. It’s possible to get a sense of the BLM movement from listening online to those voices. That helps educate you as to what aspects you concur with, and which you may not, yet you now understand more of the WHY it exists in the form it does.

    Yet — like your comment on the shit to be hashed out — it takes time, and patience, and collecting data. That’s not exactly aligned to how we use social media, as evidenced by the frustrations round the “delays” (note the quotes) in reporting voting totals.

  253. 253.

    Subsole

    @Woodrow/asim: I’d rather do it that way myself. Play to our strengths, not theirs. I just worry about ceding the field entirely.

    Most of our core ideas are massively popular when accurately communicated to people. So hopefully it doesn’t come to that. But sometimes you gotta bring a knife to a knife fight, too…and the bad guys are hurt. You KNOW this hurt them. They wouldn’t be scrambling so hard on this new narrative of “limp sad blue wave underperforms harumph” if they weren’t spitting a few teeth right now…

  256. 256.

    Subsole

    @JML: I dunno how much of Omar’s gaffes are cynical posturing, honest cutural difference, and right wing smear.

    I do know that money that she shoveled to her husband looks sketch as fuck. Bad, BAD look, especially for a populist progressive. But, she’s still there. If her district ain’t cool with it, they’ll let her know, I’m sure.

  258. 258.

    Kathleen

    @Cermet:  I totally agree. And did it in the face of a pandemic and Rethuglican baby rat conception icw post office, Amy Covid Barium, the usual media perfidy and Trump’s lies about everything. Yes. We should be proud. Dems also seem to be their own worst enemies.

  260. 260.

    WaterGirl

    @Woodrow/asim: Can I just say that someone may bring it up in every thread, but most of us are not focusing on that at all.

    Speaking for myself, I have been focusing on the counts, etc.  I think the finger-pointing is stupid, no matter which direction the fingers are pointing, and it’s ridiculously counter-productive.

  262. 262.

    db11

    @WaterGirl:

    That’s a long way of saying that I’m not going to second guess the people who are in the foxhole, fighting for their lives, about the words they chose to describe their goal in stopping police violence against black people.

    Concur.

    (One of the only two times I’ve ever disagreed with something Kay wrote.)

  265. 265.

    Geminid

    @Woodrow/asim: The hundreds of thousands who came out to support the Black Lives Matter movement did not hurt the Democrats electorally. The few thousands of anarchists and right wing accelerationists who used the demonstrations as an opportunity to commit arson and vandalism did play into the republican “law and order” appeal.  And trump tried his best to provoke them, knowing they helped his cause.

    When asked about this issue at the Georgia Senate debate, Raphael Warnock had a good short answer: “I oppose violence anywhere, anytime, no matter who shows up.”

  266. 266.

    Woodrow/asim

    @WaterGirl: it would be interesting to see whether it’s the same people bringing it up over and over.

    It’s not the same folx. And it’s mostly a variety of myms I recognize, esp. when agreeing/chiming in.

    I recognize the vast majority of comments, over last few days, are not about any of this. Yet a trend is a trend, and esp. one that steps on the lived experiences of many of the voters who are the backbone of why Biden is about to be POTUS, is one we need to think carefully about allowing to go unchallenged.

  270. 270.

    Kathleen

    @Starfish: I think you’ve hit on an important point that may somewhat address Kay’s issue about young people being issue oriented vs party oriented. And I know there are brilliant people on Biden’s campaign and in the party so I’m sure someone has identified this. I hope the party educates everybody, not just youth, on its history, its accomplishments, and the difference it’s made in people’s lives. It has to be done in a way that engages people, of course and they know that. I say this because the biggest problem I see is too many people, those who pay attention and those who don’t, really don’t understand how politics affects their lives. That leads to the “it doesn’t matter who you vote for” cynicism. There’s a gap in education and definitely in the media so these connections are not made for people. I see this as big opportunity for Dems because they attract brilliant creative people.

  271. 271.

    Kathleen

    @Dopey-o: Biden said outright he didn’t support “defunding police” but he favors police and criminal justice reform especially as it relates to treatment of Black people.

  272. 272.

    WaterGirl

    @Woodrow/asim:  Most of us can use some help in being more self-aware, and being challenged when we are clueless or are unintentionally shitting on our friends is just that.  So don’t give up on us!

    I also think everyone is on edge, and maybe a bit skittish after the last 4 years.  We’ll get through this.

  274. 274.

    Miss Bianca

    @Starfish: I am one of those older white commenters you have met at meet-ups. And I can guaran-damn-tee you, as one of the white folk villainized and threatened by hysterical white goober overreaction to the BLM march we had in our little town (you may remember I submitted some photos of it, complete with said goobers howling and jeering us) that while I support the goal of “Defunding the Police”, I sure as shit think it’s a bad slogan, and that that slogan getting bandied about and conflated with BLM as “cop hatred” is one of the reasons that we had “white riot” here over the the summer. As in. “OMG, these scary out-of-towners got bussed in to protest (false), so why do we have to have parade permits for Fourth of July or the rodeo or anything? We’re PROTESTING!!”

    So we had super-spreader events here over the summer. All justified by anti-BLM, “pro-police, pro-America!” fuel.

    So, do I have reason to hate that slogan? You fucking bet I do. It’s made my life harder as I try to get people here to understand why I support its GOALS. Because people here hear that slogan and their brains shut down. Starting with the Sheriff and working its way down through the population.

    So yeah – go ahead and castigate me, one of the allies of the movement, because I don’t like the words the movement is using. That’s so fucking useful. You obviously know, based on one meeting, that I am actually your enemy, not your ally.

    I have met you, and I like you, so I won’t tell you to go fuck yourself. Oh, wait…that’s actually a sign of affection here. So…go fuck yourself. In the nicest possible way.

  275. 275.

    db11

    @Woodrow/asim: I’ve been reading those posts — as you have — and with a similar frustration, though your lived experience likely makes it far more visceral for you.

    You’ve perfectly expressed my annoyance at these comments and what they betray about the people expressing them.

    I think a lot of it is PTSD from the years of getting pounded by both the Repubs and the media in the framing of public policy issues. (Just because one understands how propaganda/influencing works doesn’t mean that one is immune from its [cumulative] effects).

    There’s one other thing: polling has shown that somewhere between 60% (HuffPost) and 77% (can’t dig up that reference) perfectly understand what DTP refers to — that it is a demand for a shift in funding priorities.

    The actual radical message is ‘Abolish the Police’ and only those that are willfully misunderstanding or ratfucking actually mistake the two.

    Nobody on anywhere near our side of the issue is misapprehending the message, so all this caterwauling about scary messaging (and how it’s draining support from Dems) is not only annoying from BLM ‘allies’, it’s completely misguided.

    The support that we should be worried about losing is that of Black voters (especially in GA and PA) that not only saved the Democratic Party this election, but likely saved American democracy itself and possibly, the Western world as we know it.

    Showing the BLM movement (and Black people more broadly) that we unequivocally support their highest priority issue (i.e. not being shot down in the street) is much more determinative of electoral success for Dems than watering down the message so as not to scare some (mythical) moderates —who otherwise, for sure, who would of not given their vote to the orange abomination — if only the Dems weren’t so lawless.

    F*ck that.

  276. 276.

    Miss Bianca

    @db11: One of the reasons I am down on the “Defund the Police” slogan being picked up is that I got taken to the woodshed about it by a black female cop who is a friend of mine. I never had any problem with it before that.

    I don’t always agree with her opinions on things – sadly, I am never going to read Hillbilly Elegy even tho’ she recommended it to me – but she explained her reasoning in a way that sounded a lot like Kay’s reasoning above. And believe me, just because she’s a cop and gets automatically a bit defensive about anything that seems to attack them as an institution, doesn’t mean she’s not outraged about the violence cops are perpetrating against African-Americans. She’s just arguing that words matter, and what sells on the street doesn’t necessarily sell all over.

    Is it just a matter of semantics? I don’t know.

  277. 277.

    Bill Arnold

    @Subsole:

    Also, what with DeJoy’s mail ballot fuckery, are we sure the polls were that far off, really?

    Dunno. I’m slowing working on a spreadsheet. Polls were accurate relative to reported votes in a few states (e.g. NJ, MN, CO) and wildly inaccurate relative to reported votes in neighboring states and I don’t have an adequate explanation yet. Certainly cannot rule out systemic state-level fraud across a broad swath of states. It seems insane, yes. Needs to be carefully investigated, IMO, because if something is there, it needs to be vivisected and destroyed publicly and the people involved made into examples (of treason). If not and the polling differences vs results are entirely non-malevolent, then we learn why, which is also very useful.

  278. 278.

    Bill Arnold

    @bemused:

    Who the hell came up with the slogan “Defund the Police” in the first place?

    On twitter, the tag dates back to 2016, and was mostly a few sincere activists. It took off like crazy after George Floyd was murdered by police. It is unclear how organic the takeoff was; I don’t know who was amplifying it. Could have been organic, could have been influence operators, domestic or foreign. I got some fund raising emails (spam, did not sign for the lists) from Trump and another RW group using “defund the police” and “defund and abolish the police” in their fundraising messages. It was a significant part of the RW 2020 election messaging. Not complicated like the crazy RW conspiracies, just 3 words, easy to remember.
    In twitter, search for, for example:
    #defundthepolice until:2020-05-30 since:2020-01-01

  279. 279.

    Bill Arnold

    @Woodrow/asim:

    It’s like saying Democrats need to astroturf all of our activism, like the GOP does. Esp. given how a Black Woman did all that damned hard work to push GA over the line.

    This is a good point.
    The Republicans have their astroturfed areas that Democrats don’t try much to meddle with; IMO Democratic operatives (or allies) should be in such RW info spaces in numbers, and working to change them, by subterfuge when needed. The RW and their allies certainly do this, at scale and with significant budgets, to progressive and mixed spaces.

  280. 280.

    dnfree

    @Woodrow/asim: who’s stuck on that phrase is the right, and they’re not giving it up. Giving them that as ammunition, even if the left  then moves on, is an own goal.

    Edited to add that “Abolish ICE” has the same problem.

  281. 281.

    KRK

    @Woodrow/asim:

    Thank you so much for being willing to raise this point and hold to it in this conversation. I’m just an old white lady and even I have been cringing at some the comments. I can’t imagine how it must feel for you.

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