Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

If you don’t believe freedom is for everybody, then the thing you love isn’t freedom, it is privilege.

Roe is not about choice. It is about freedom.

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

When I was faster i was always behind.

Republicans do not trust women.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

You passed on an opportunity to be offended? What are you even doing here?

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Wednesday NDAA Open Thread: Losers Get No Respect, Donnie

Wednesday NDAA Open Thread: Losers Get No Respect, Donnie

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Into the grinder at the legislative sausage factory…

Reader Interactions

341Comments

  1. 1.

    dmsilev

    And the cherry on top of the stupid sundae is that if Congress did repeal that section, Twitter’s response would be …to ban Trump, lest they get sued for all the shit he says.

  2. 2.

    dmsilev

    Also, McConnell bringing the bill to a floor vote means that, despite everything he’s said, he recognizes that there’s zero chance of Trump being in the White House past January 20th.

  3. 3.

    Fair Economist

    Trump has threatened to veto assorted essential budget measures over the year for assorted inappropriate trivialities like this. The threats have always been empty, and I expect this one is too.

  5. 5.

    Baud

    “Republicans are sick of this shit,” one GOP lawmaker put it.

    I wish they’d stop quoting  anonymous Brave Sir Republicans.

    The vote on the NDAA won’t be anonymous at least.

  6. 6.

    The Moar You Know

    Per Trump’s tweet:  there is one other industry that has full liability shielding without which they could not function:  the gun industry.

  8. 8.

    debbie

    I’d like to see NDAA pass with a veto-proof majority. Now that would make for a lovely going-away gift.

  9. 9.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Amazing.  Trump picks on literally the only thing left in American politics that has bipartisan congressional support.  The one thing that is still considered ‘must pass’.

    he just likes to get mad about stuff and this is something somebody told him he should get mad about.

    I think it’s more like Trump yells “Why can’t I punish Twitter for being mean to me???” and somebody says “Section 230-” and that’s it, it’s in his head, Section 230 must go.

  11. 11.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    IS the section 230 ranting still about “Diaper Don”? I managed to miss most of that

  13. 13.

    Just Chuck

    I put the odds at 20% he actually does veto it. He’s made veto threats before, never followed up on them, and he’ll continue to be full of shit with regard to every last thing he ever says or tweets.

  15. 15.

    Mike in NC

    Trump will veto the big, beautiful NDAA because it includes a provision for renaming bases named for Confederate traitors he reveres.

  16. 16.

    Just Chuck

    @Frankensteinbeck: That bipartisan support will come in handy since Mitch will need a lot of Dems to override that veto.  Which means Dems will be able to extract more compromises.

  17. 17.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Just Chuck: he can create some new squid cloud five minutes before signing it and his followers will never know he backed down, and will in fact think he totally owned the libs that day by insulting Rosie O’Donnell or something

  19. 19.

    MattF

    Sen. Inhofe, who is chairman of the relevant Senate committee, is not going along. Trump’s power is leaking away.

  20. 20.

    Brachiator

    @Rob:

    @Delk: Is that the tiny desk?

    Tiny desk for tiny hands. Someone should give Orange Rage Infant Trump his baby rattle and a pacifier.

  21. 21.

    The Moar You Know

    Sadly, I’d love to see Sec. 230 repealed, as it would be the end of Facebook, Twitter, and all other “social media”, which I think would be a godsend to our democracy.

    But I’m such a petty shithead I don’t even want Trump to get that.  I want there to be a literal “our final offer is:  nothing” scenario as he is booted out of office.

    He will not veto.  What he’s really trying to blackmail out of everyone is legal immunity, and he’s not going to get it.

  23. 23.

    The Moar You Know

    It would be the end of Balloon Juice.

    @Baud:  Yes it would.  And as much as I truly love y’all, I’d be OK with that.  Good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

    And if we don’t get rid of Facebook, it will be the end of American democracy.

  24. 24.

    Kent

    Georgia has a ton of military bases including Fort Benning (named after Confederate General Henry Lewis Benning) .  And also a TON of military retirees.

    Please, please veto this bill so we can see Loeffler and Perdue twisting in the wind, refusing to fund the military and raise military pay over Trump’s twitter temper tantrum.

  25. 25.

    scav

    Oh, the funding opportunities that will open before him if still more of everyone is against him. Deep State Companies! Deep State Judiciary! Deep State Fox News! Deep State Republicans! It’s AAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL The Deep State. Send Money Now.

  26. 26.

    Kent

    @Baud:It would be the end of Balloon Juice.

    Nonsense, Balloon Juice would just have to move to a secret server in Ukraine!!!

  30. 30.

    Martin

    So, if Trump shuts down the military, that would seem to interfere with the marshal law, have the military oversee a new election fever dream on the right.

    I mean, these folks don’t exactly excel at planning, but this is literally holding two thoughts in your head and ensuring they don’t contradict each other, and they don’t seem capable of even doing that.

  34. 34.

    Just Chuck

    @Martin:Oh they’ll just want him to take the money from somewhere else.  Preferably from the $500 trillion going to ACORN’s Abortion Megaplexes.  Hell the POTUS has already treated the military budget as a piggybank for other things, like the border wall, so they assume it works the other way too.

  36. 36.

    dmsilev

    @Martin: No, the answer there is simple. Get the troops to overthrow the republic and then don’t pay them. Historically, that’s a sure-fire winner with no possibility of going wrong.

  38. 38.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @dmsilev: But they are doing it in the wrong order.  Refusing to pay them then demanding that they overthrown the government doesn’t strike me as a good plan.

  39. 39.

    Calouste

    @dmsilev: Twitter would definitely get sued by people they ban for saying the exact same thing as the shitgibbon says, and doesn’t get banned for. Someone created an account that did nothing but retweet the shitgibbon, and that got banned within a few days.

  44. 44.

    Benw

    Trump’s such a coward that 1. he’s threatening to defund the military because he think’s Twitter (his best friend) is mean to him, and 2. he’s going to wimp out anyway and sign the bill.

    Brave, brave Sir Trump.

  46. 46.

    Martin

    @dmsilev: Yeah, that’s what I assume. The military will of course back Trump, and do it for free, because freedom. Nevermind the underlying assertion that black people voting is a form of fraud, and the military is heavily POC.

  49. 49.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Martin:

    The military will of course back Trump, and do it for free, because freedom.

    Always worth a reminder that Esper got fired for relaying the message from the generals that no, they ain’t touching the election and Trump can stick his coup in his pie hole.

  50. 50.

    The Moar You Know

    The problem is not the storyteller(s). The problem is the audience.

    @Frank Wilhoit: I disagree profoundly.  As does history.  The Third Reich without the storytellers is just a very dysfunctional Weimar Republic.  No Third Reich, no Hitler, no Holocaust.

    But I expect America to bitterly cling to guns, religion, Twitter, Facebook, Parler and the rest, all the way down the slide to the bottom.

  55. 55.

    dm

    @Baud:

    It would be the end of Balloon Juice.

    You could repeal Section 230 for any business with more than $X million in revenues or more than Y million participants, leaving it in place for smaller businesses, preserving Section 230’s encouragement-of-communication-innovation by small businesses while causing the Twitters and the Facebooks to spend some of their billions exerting some editorial control.

  60. 60.

    chopper

    i love that this motherfucker thinks he’s got that kind of leverage that you’d need to extort everyone over this sort of issue.

  63. 63.

    waratah

    @Baud: They are all cowards. They could not stand by the election workers in Georgia who are being threatened. They try to bypass the threats which are real. We have all seen what has happened before when Trump encouraged things like this.
    I am praying that violence does not break out in Georgia.

  66. 66.

    matt the semi-reasonable

    I mean, yeah, let the president get out his veto pen to defund the troops. let his Republican Party protectors suck on that.

  67. 67.

    HumboldtBlue

    “Republicans are sick of this shit,” one GOP lawmaker put it.

    What utter bullshit. They’ve enabled this entire monstrosity of an administration and gladly sat aside while Trump became the most unbearable and disgusting person to ever hold the office.

  70. 70.

    Roger Moore

    @Martin:

    I mean, these folks don’t exactly excel at planning, but this is literally holding two thoughts in your head and ensuring they don’t contradict each other, and they don’t seem capable of even doing that.

    Republicans are double plus good at doublethink.

  71. 71.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    What I don’t get is why isn’t the military considered apart of the “deep state”, anyway, to these loons?

    Because it kills brown people, and they imagine the military as their surrogate brutally putting inferior brown people in their place all over the world.  Similar to their support for the police.  Republicanism really is all about the right of white men to hurt everyone else.

  72. 72.

    The Moar You Know

    Isn’t The Nooge a Gretsch player?

    @Amir Khalid: not that classy.  I know for a long time he was playing those REALLY large hollowbody Gibsons, like the ES-175.  Which is not exactly the guitar you want to be using at those volume levels, but he did make it work.  Probably the only nice thing I can say about him.

    I think he plays anything that gets thrown at him these days.  He doesn’t really have a career left save as “right-wing grifter”.

    Delk nailed it, yeah, Byrdland.

  75. 75.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @The Moar You Know: Your 2d graf contradicts your first.

    Here is how you totalitarianism.
    First, you decide to kill somebody.
    Second, you decide who to kill. (This tends to be a grab bag of potential victims, each of whom is as good as the next; if obstacles arise to pursuing one victim, you can immediately pivot to another.)
    Third, you invent a reason to kill them.
    Fourth, you build a propaganda around the reasons. This, and this only, is the “storyteller”.
    Fifth, you build a social/political movement to act out the propaganda.
    Sixth, you pick a leader. The leader is always a pure figurehead, who originates nothing and can be replaced in a split second if need be.

    The propaganda that was eventually adopted by the Nazis was fully formed by the mid-19th century, before Hitler was born. Sources: Peter G. J. Pulzer, The Rise of Political Anti-Semitism in Germany and Austria [New York: Wiley, 1964]; Peter Viereck, Meta-Politics: The Roots of the Nazi Mind [New York: Capricorn, 1965].

  76. 76.

    Roger Moore

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    What I don’t get is why isn’t the military considered apart of the “deep state”, anyway, to these loons?

    The Deep State are the people within the government who oppose them.  They believe the military is on their side.  Therefore the military is not part of the Deep State.

  77. 77.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Amir Khalid:  you think screenwriters at the CW focus on details like that?  That’s why you never made it in LA!

    True story: college friend dreamed of being a jingle writer.  Double majored in Music and Philosophy.  Graduated and moved to Hollywood to pursue his dream.  Was possible the greatest failure in history of Hollywood failures.  Defeated and broken, he returned to Atlanta and became a cardiologist.

  79. 79.

    opiejeanne

    @Rob: The Resolute desk was a gift from Queen Victoria to the White House during the Presidency of Rutherford B. Hayes. It was made from the recovered timbers of a British arctic exploratory ship, HMS Resolute.

  89. 89.

    Calouste

    @Omnes Omnibus: My first thought here was that I was surprised that the Nuge played the same acoustic guitar as Woody Guthrie. Woody had “This machine kills fascists” on his guitar.

  91. 91.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Ah, delusional racism, how silly of me to forget. Not to praise the military too heavily, but diversity is one of it’s assets. I imagine that will help in the future

  93. 93.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Roger Moore:

    The Deep State are the people within the government who oppose them.  They believe the military is on their side.  Therefore the military is not part of the Deep State.

    Simple enough

  95. 95.

    Roger Moore

    @opiejeanne:

    Honestly, I would love for Biden to warehouse the Resolute Desk and get a contemporary American craftsman to build him a stylish new desk that’s designed from the ground up for a modern working style.  It would be a great symbol that he isn’t tying himself to an obsolete, backward-looking approach to government.

  99. 99.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Calouste:

    Woody Guthrie’s later life is super sad. He suffered from Huntington’s disease. His wife eventually divorced him

  100. 100.

    Steve in the ATL

    @NotMax: my school was (1) a university, (2) private, and (3) named after Lee only after he served as university president.

    Also, the school appointed a blue ribbon commission to study the issue.   A number of buildings have been renamed already, but changing the name of the school is a bit of a sticky wicket.  And since he’s buried in campus, would he haunt the place in response?

  106. 106.

    raven

    @Steve in the ATL: My bother repped this dude against Zep. They settled.

     

    Jake Holmes (born December 28, 1939) is an American singer-songwriter and jingle writer who began a recording career in the 1960s.

    Holmes is the author of the song “Dazed and Confused”, later reworked by Led Zeppelin, and composed the music to the US Army recruitment jingle “Be All That You Can Be” in the 1980s.[1] The jingle and subsequent advertising campaign was used extensively by the US government throughout the 1980s.[2] Holmes also wrote the “I’m A Pepper” jingle, and with Randy Newman co-wrote the “Most Original Soft Drink Ever” jingle for the Dr Pepper soft drink.[3]

  108. 108.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Couldn’t find actual votes, but even with the probably inaccurate exit polling this time around, Trump lost 20 points with active military and veterans nationally

    Trump’s election fraud allegations suggest military voters uniformly supported him. It’s not so

    It’s not surprising, therefore, that Trump lost support among veterans and active-duty personnel. While exit polls showed that the military and veterans nationally favored Trump over Biden 52 percent to 45 percent, Trump’s margin dropped 20 points from his 61 percent (to Clinton’s 34 percent) of their vote in 2016.

  111. 111.

    Bill Arnold

    @dm:

    You could repeal Section 230 for any business with more than $X million in revenues or more than Y million participants, leaving it in place for smaller businesses, preserving Section 230’s encouragement-of-communication-innovation by small businesses while causing the Twitters and the Facebooks to spend some of their billions exerting some editorial control.

    All this could and would be gamed, and a cottage industry of destroying communications platforms for a fee would emerge.

    It’s interesting. Facebook is quite shameless about its nature, a computational propaganda (which includes marketing) platform. Twitter has been changing[1], enough to cause a nutter exodus to nutland outlets like Parler. They are also open, and there is substantial academic interest (sociology etc) in analysis of twitter, which is basically a publicly accessible graph with time labels. And there are active projects attempting to find (and often succeeding) twitter-based influence operations (bots etc) in real time, and sometimes to disrupt them.

    [1] Is Twitter Going Full Resistance? Here’s the Woman Driving the Change. – Vijaya Gadde flies under the radar in a world that worships tech CEOs. But she’s quickly moving Twitter toward a tougher line on speech—and infuriating conservatives along the way. (NANCY SCOLA, 10/28/2020)

  119. 119.

    Dan B

    @Omnes Omnibus: I wondered since my mother, two of my father’s sisters and a couple cousins graduated from Oberlin.  And they were / are strong women

    Lawrence is good as well.  Oberlin has gone full PC event horizon last I heard.

  131. 131.

    Dan B

    @Steve in the ATL:  My Oberlin graduate mother came from Walton land.  The college her aunts taught at, College of the Ozarks, was turned into a university by Helen Walton.

    My mother lived a life of contrasts.  Put her younger brothers through MIT and Harvard on a music teacher’s salary.  They avoided tickets driving from Arkansas to Cambridge by claiming to be yokels.   Went on to careers at high levels of the space program at Goodrich and JPL.

  132. 132.

    Patricia Kayden

    @laura: Diaper Don is always mad.  I’m looking forward to seeing him have a meltdown when NY AG Leticia James goes after him and his juvenile delinquent spawn.

  137. 137.

    Doc Sardonic

    @Amir Khalid: Nugent’s  main axe is the Gibson Byrdland..Looks a lot like a Gretsch. The only time I am aware he strayed from that was his fling with PRS during the Damn Yankees days.

  140. 140.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Refusing to pay them then demanding that they overthrown the government doesn’t strike me as a good plan.

    I’m late to the show, but this has me ROFL.

  142. 142.

    Roger Moore

    @NotMax:

    To me, though, it’s not just about a different desk; it’s about having a new one. I’m tired of having our government so wrapped up in hoary old traditions that we can’t get anything done. Replacing a century-old desk with a modern one that represents the best of what America can do today would be a fitting symbol of an administration that isn’t going to let old ways of thinking smother progress.

  145. 145.

    opiejeanne

    @Rob: IIRC, it’s featured in “National Treasure” which is a silly fun little romp through “history”.

  147. 147.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Ivanka Trump, the President’s daughter and adviser, sat for a deposition Tuesday with investigators from the Washington, DC, attorney general’s office as part of its lawsuit alleging the misuse of inaugural funds, according to a court filing.
    In January, the DC attorney general’s office sued the Trump Organization and Presidential Inaugural Committee alleging they abused more than $1 million raised by the nonprofit by “grossly overpaying” for use of event space at the Trump hotel in Washington for the 2017 inauguration.

  151. 151.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    “Republicans are sick of this shit”

    Maybe they are in some alternate universe.  In the reality that I inhabit, they’re a bunch of nail biting, bed wetting cowards who are afraid of their own shadows.

  155. 155.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Ivanka Trump, the President’s daughter and adviser, sat for a deposition Tuesday with investigators from the Washington, DC,

    I look forward to seeing Ivanka in a designer prison jump suit.

    Siri has way more class and personality than this pathetic doofus.

  156. 156.

    RSA

    @opiejeanne: Cool. Thanks. I did not know that.

    Funny note: I checked Wikipedia and found that the first photo on the page is of the President at the Resolute Desk… President Obama. That may rankle with some. Good.

  159. 159.

    NotMax

    @Roger Moore

    Heck, I’ve been pushing the concept of incorporating modern furniture in the mix since Ike. If oil lamps and candlestick phones can be updated so can other accoutrements.

    ;)

  160. 160.

    Yarrow

    @Wyatt Salamanca:  No designer prison jumpsuit. A regular, standard issue one will do just fine. I’m interested to see what color her hair is once she’s behind bars for awhile.

  162. 162.

    NotMax

    @moops

    They have but to wait five minutes and there will be fresh, heaping servings of sh*t for them to slavishly swallow.

  164. 164.

    mrmoshpotato

    the very beautiful Resolute desk

    What kind of freak* talks like this?

    No offense to actual freaks.

  165. 165.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, cool. So you worked with artillery, then? I think you mentioned once that you served in the late 80s. Were you involved in the Gulf War at all?

  171. 171.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Omnes Omnibus: I presume your specialty was (allegedly) “adding dignity to what would otherwise be an ugly brawl.”

    One went high! One went low!
    Where the hell did that one go?
    As the caissons go rolling along…

  174. 174.

    Amir Khalid

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    This baffles me. Trump has done it so many times, he should know how it goes: first you make them do the work, then you stiff them on payment.

  176. 176.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @mrmoshpotato:

    What kind of freak* talks like this?

    No rational human being has ever spoken like Trump.  With each passing day, he’s setting new records for batshit crazy.  He belongs in a straitjacket in the lockdown unit of a mental hospital.  The notion of this raving lunatic inhabiting the White House for 50 plus more days is truly horrific.

  178. 178.

    CarolPW

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka): So you have stalked Omnes all these months in your posts to him and his responses to you without having tracked that he is artillery? Fucking son of a bitch. Will wonders never cease. Satby is right.

  179. 179.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Dan B: there’s hope for rural folks after all!  I’ve known some really smart people from the middle of nowhere, including my mother, though most of them have moved to more urban areas.

  181. 181.

    Spanky

    @Omnes Omnibus: Something I’ve always wondered: Where else do you put artillery than in the field? Is there office artillery? Stream artillery? What other flavor do you guys have?

  187. 187.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Omnes Omnibus: As soon as you mentioned it I knew exactly what print it was – a copy hung behind the desk of one of my very favorite grouchy gravel-voiced retired-bird-colonel coworkers when I was an ILS geek at Westinghouse Defense in the 80s.

    FTR the song lyrics are courtesy of one Seamus Kennedy, who made a living for many years in the DC area as a solo act. The other services fared about as poorly, e.g.:

    Off we go into the wild blue yonder –
    Lost again, son of a bitch!

    and

    Let’s go get laid, my boys,
    Let’s go get laid!

    Just FTR you should check out his rant re chihuahuas. “It’s not a dog, it’s a rat with a thyroid condition.” Und so weiter…

  189. 189.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @CarolPW:

    What are you talking about? I’ve been a “regular” here for the last 3 years. I was trying to make conversation. And guess what, I happened to remember him mentioning at various times he was military. I was curious and decided to ask

    And Satby isn’t right

  193. 193.

    raven

    @Spanky: I was in the 1/79th Arty in Korea.  Battery F /79th Arty in Vietnam was an Aerial Rocket Artillery unit.

     

    Aerial rocket artillery (abbreviated ARA, also called aerial artillery) is a type of armed helicopter unit that was part of the artillery component of the United States Army’s two airmobile divisions during the Vietnam War. Controlled by division artillery and not the aviation group, the 2nd Battalion, 20th Artillery, 1st Cavalry Divisionand the 4th Battalion, 77th Artillery, 101st Airborne Division, along with Battery F, 79th Artillery, 1st Cavalry Division, were the only ARA units fielded during that conflict. The ARA concept disappeared from Army aviation by the mid-1970s, replaced by more generic attack aviation units.

  195. 195.

    CaseyL

    I don’t know how closely y’all are following the legal antics of Dolt45’s “Strike Force,” but – talk about event horizons – they’ve gone Full Metal Wacko.

    Lin Wood and Sidney Powell just presided over a rally (broadcast by OANN, and a snippet was posted on YouTube) where Wood worked the crowd up into a frenzy against Georgie Gov. Kemp and Sens. Loeffler and Perdue. He’s telling the crowd to boycott the Jan. 5 runoffs unless Kemp, Loeffler, and Perdue reverse certification, “bring in the Legislature!,” and then “Resign, Kemp!”

    I’m not sure how many potential Georgia GOP voters are paying attention. I hope many, many are.

  198. 198.

    Jeffro

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:he can create some new squid cloud five minutes before signing it and his followers will never know he backed down, and will in fact think he totally owned the libs that day by insulting Rosie O’Donnell or something

    I LOL’d at three different things in just this one sentence!  =)

  199. 199.

    NotMax

    @raven

    There’s at least one military movie (with Walter Pidgeon, IIRC) where the chatter of an air unit uses “don’t answer” as a verbal cue the radio transmission is now finished.

  203. 203.

    Gin & Tonic

    @raven: Most people who very publicly say they are willing to die turn out not to be so willing when the rubber meets the road.

  205. 205.

    Dan B

    @Steve in the ATL: Yes there is hope for rural folks… but my uncle retired to the ranch in Arkansas near the OK border – 600 acres – and hated Clinton.  My grandfather owned a coal mine and a large wholesale produce business.  They were anything but yokels.  My grandfather studied the classics in Greek, no silly translations.

    So there is always hope.  Sigh.

  206. 206.

    NotMax

    @raven

    Aerial rocket artillery

    Before the eyes focused properly I momentarily read that as Animal rocket artillery.

    Which conjures up an entirely different and novel panorama.
    :)

  209. 209.

    Jeffro

    @The Moar You Know:What he’s really trying to blackmail out of everyone is legal immunity, and he’s not going to get it.

    Good point.

    Think he’ll slip and say it publicly sometime in the next 47 days?  I do.

  211. 211.

    trollhattan

    File under W for “What the actual fuck?”

    Am getting emails from Quest Diagnostics advertising 15% discounts on lab tests all week.

    Bless their hearts.

  213. 213.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Another Scott: She couldn’t think through in advance the fact that if she gets Covid her husband is exposed. Doesn’t occur to her until after she gets it. These people are pathologically short-sighted.

  215. 215.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @CaseyL:

    Holy shit, that’s insane. Can you imagine what must be going through the minds of Kemp, Perdue, and Loeffler, right now?

  216. 216.

    NotMax

    @raven – @zhena gogolia

    Just looked it up – Flight Command.

    Triva: Find it giggly (in a juvenile fashion) that Pidgeon’s first marriage was to a lady named Pickles. If only they’d agreed to hyphenate the joint surname to Pidgeon-Pickles.

    Second wife’s maiden name was Walker, which would’ve been cute but Pidgeon-Walker is nowhere near as amusing. :)

  218. 218.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @CarolPW:

    I don’t read every single comment, no. I also don’t remember every single thing I read in detail either.

    I don’t know what your point is. I wasn’t “stalking” anyone

  220. 220.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka): Ronna McDaniel (RNC chair) was trying to plead with the leopards a couple of days ago not to eat the faces of their GA Senate candidates. It didn’t have much effect.

    I don’t know if this craziness is enough to significantly depress the Republican GA vote, but it sure couldn’t hurt.

  221. 221.

    BruceFromOhio

    @CaseyL: Either someone has been up late playing long games of 12-dimensional chess, or it’s a random collision of stupid particles causing a US Senate controlled by a Democratic majority to come into existence.

    Gonna go see how the popcorn supplies are holding up.

  223. 223.

    Dan B

    @Another Scott: This “I’m not going to be kept from my religion by you socialist dictators.”  Followed by “Pray for me and my immune compromised husband.”  Is like “Forgive me because I’ve sinned.”  And turning around and condemning people who are not as holy and pure in your beliefs.  Logic is not to be found in claims of superiority like this.

    And thus you see the appeal of conservative religion.  Failing at logic and humility repeatedly is not disqualifying.  There are so many people who struggle with these.  Religious dogma is their refuge but not really their salvation.

    Farce or tragedy?

  225. 225.

    Redshift

    @The Moar You Know: Another thing in sure he wouldn’t like in the Defense bill is Mark Warner’s provisions to crack down on money laundering and shell companies, if anyone has told him about it. But I don’t think anyone has told him, because he’s not restrained enough to keep from blabbing about it.

  226. 226.

    trollhattan

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka):

    Perdue and Loeffler will wave it off as some deep state shenanigans because that’s how they roll. Kemp will hopefully ponder the prior sins that led him to this underbusing, although I have my doubts.

    Why does Loeffler even bother? She has a billion bucks or so to figure out how to spend before she croaks.

  227. 227.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @satby:

    What do you think you “noticed”? By the way, I never “bragged” about getting “100” N95 masks back in March or whenever the hell it was. It was only ever 10. And guess what, I tried to donate them, but because they’re industrial, the hospital doc I talked to said they couldn’t accept them

    I know I haven’t always acted my best around these parts. But I’m trying to move past it. Please, let’s just start over

  232. 232.

    NotMax

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Turnout is usually much lighter in special elections, so gonna lowball a guy-can-dream-can’t-he result.

    Warnock – 171, 833
    Loeffler – 26
    .

    BTW, from a longtime columnist and editor at The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, just yesterday:

    I have been unable to decide which is more disturbing — referring to an African American man as an “it,” or marking Ebenezer and its congregation as a den of satanic influence. But it is hard to walk either back — and with her silence, Loeffler has acquiesced to both. Source

  234. 234.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @trollhattan: Why does Loeffler even bother? She has a billion bucks or so to figure out how to spend before she croaks.

    You know of a hobby that is more fun than kicking the weaker?

    This is how people like Loeffler affirm their self worth, by punishing their inferiors.

  235. 235.

    Dan B

    @CaseyL: Thanks for posting this.  I saw a post that Lin Wood was being called barshit crazy and didn’t feel like anymore batshit winger news but my mistake.  If the headline had read “Right-wing eating its own”  I would have been getting out the popcorn

    I hope this civil war stays confined to the GOP.

  236. 236.

    SFAW

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka):

    I don’t know what your point is. I wasn’t “stalking” anyone

    I’m a-guessing that Carol’s point is that Omnes has mentioned numerous times over the years that he was in Artillery. Even I know that, and I’m not stalking him responding to his every comment the way you have/do/are. [Not that you’re as bad as Little Boots (I think) was.]
    Unless he trash-talks the Jets, of course

    ETA: NB that I was not being literal when I used “every.”

  237. 237.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    I don’t know if this craziness is enough to significantly depress the Republican GA vote, but it sure couldn’t hurt.

    We can only hope! Winning control of the Senate will be a big help for sure

    @trollhattan:

    Why does Loeffler even bother? She has a billion bucks or so to figure out how to spend before she croaks.

    Well, being a Senator is a prestigious job. It comes with a lot of power. And they say that Senate is like a country club too

    @Dan B:

    That one guy in the SOS office seemed to at least. He sounded pissed from the clips I’ve seen

  238. 238.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Isn’t any talk about the Jets trash talk?  And Little Boots lived in Madison too.  I may actually see him on the streets when I am out.  Scary thought, huh?

  239. 239.

    Dan B

    @BruceFromOhio: But, but, but, optimists jump off high places because they BELIEVE!  Pessimists never accomplish anything great.*

     

    *Just FYI I don’t consider ‘splat’ to be great.

  240. 240.

    randy khan

    @dm:

    So I work in this area.  (I actually was involved in the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and specifically worked on the Communications Decency Act portion of it, which included Section 230.)

    It’s important to keep in mind that Section 230 works quite well on the whole, for the vast majority of Internet platforms.  The exceptions are significant, but they’re still exceptions.  Heck, the problems don’t even affect all social media (you don’t hear Section 230-related complaints about Pinterest, SnapChat, Instagram, or TikTok, after all).

    So a fix needs to be nuanced.  Something like the size of the company probably isn’t going to work.  Among other things, what do you do about companies that aren’t public, where valuations are, let’s say, squishy?  (That’s Facebook until 2012.)  And Twitter is about half the size of Snap in market capitalization, and SnapChat isn’t part of the problem.

  242. 242.

    debbie

    Am I the only one wondering why Trump hasn’t been photographed in the Oval Office recently? I’m thinking he might have trashed it or done some sort of damage in a fit of loser fury.

  243. 243.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Isn’t any talk about the Jets trash talk?

    Perhaps. How would you categorize “I hope Steve Cohen has enough money left to buy the Jets”? [Apologies if that ref is (literally) too inside-baseball-y.]

    ETA: I take it from your response that I was correct in which former commenter it was? Or am I inferring something not there?

  244. 244.

    CaseyL

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka):  Voters are peons to Loeffler and Perdue.  I’m sure they pay no attention at all.

    @Dan B: We have our own crazies. (And every time someone says Democrats should at least listen to them, I seethe, for that very reason.) But our crazies get into Twitter wars, not real ones.

  245. 245.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @SFAW:

    I don’t “respond to his every comment”. All I remembered was him mentioning he was former military. I don’t read or remember every single comment. And don’t compare me to that freak little boots

  247. 247.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Too insiderish for me.

    Yeah, you were right.  He was always a bit nuts but he went way off that the rails when I told him I would never speak to him again after he went on a misogynistic rant at a longtime and very decent female commenter and refused to apologize.  I think it was his continuing abuse aimed at that commenter that got him banned.

  248. 248.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m sure I’ve mentioned that my gramps the (Lt) Colonel worked on the improvements to the 4.2 mortar for WWII. But that’s a whole different class of artillery, no?

    Also, in case you’re interested, in a recent Season 2 episode of my buddy’s concert streams, he played a mix where he’d asked Adrian to play “kind of a Fripp-like solo” and Adrian said “Crimson’s in town next week, why don’t you just have him do it?” I remember the story from when he first made it. In the show he just notes he doesn’t play the guitar solo.

  253. 253.

    Dan B

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka): The Georgia SOS was pissed but seemed like these people are an aberration in the GOP that can be dealt with by strongly worded requests.  It seems to me that the crazies are getting crazier and attracting recruits.

    We’ll see but my money is on the Malignant Narcissist in Chief continuing to rip the GOP to shreds.  He has no control, only unbridled fear and hatred.

    Flynn’s call for Martial Law is one more indication.  The GOP brass seems to be impotent and unresponsive.  They think they bought Trump but the Trumpists owned them instead.

  255. 255.

    NotMax

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    FWIW, details other than having been in service of anyone here who has brought them up them wash over me without adhering at all.

    Spotty memory storage is a perquisite to which you can look forward sometime in the 2060s.

    ;)

  256. 256.

    Barbara

    @CaseyL: I read an account of the voting machine allegations they made in a complaint they filed in federal court in Georgia and I can’t figure out what the judge is thinking.  Who do they represent?  How do they have standing? They want to bring in three teams of “experts” to basically figure out how the machines are programmed.  I cannot wrap my brain around a judge just letting people run into a federal court and walk all over the voting process without producing any actual evidence.  He didn’t give them exactly what they wanted but he ordered the state to impound at least three machines.  It’s all now apparently on appeal as the judge acknowledged the case was “novel.”  That’s being very charitable.

  257. 257.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Steve Cohen just bought the Mets from the execrable Wilpons. Which, except for Cohen being (apparently) kind of a shit — or maybe a criminal? I can never remember* — is (potentially/probably) great news for Mets fans. Of which I am one, as you doubtless remember (and doubtless don’t care).

    Were he to buy the Jets, I think it would also be A GOOD THING.

    *PS to NotMax: The other problem with Cohen is that he went to GNN.

  259. 259.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Dan B: The GOP brass seems to be impotent and unresponsive. They think they bought Trump but the Trumpists owned them instead.

    They all suck Kremlin asshole now!  SAD!

  265. 265.

    Dan B

    @randy khan:  Do you think some updated version of the Fairness Doctrine would provide a solution?  I can think of multiple ways – thousands of platforms and blogs, getting the courts to separate the blend of media and platform so there could be clear rules, etc.  But it seems we’re heading for crises in governance at a rapid rate.  When one looks at the Rohingya and other persecuted groups Facebook seems like we are allowing a platform that facilitates toxic murderous propaganda.  It’s like giving plastic explosive and matches to unaccompanied children – violence is only a matter of time.

  266. 266.

    oclib

    @SFAW:

    “I hope Steve Cohen has enough money left to buy the Jets”

    iirc, trump was turned down by the NFL on buying a team.  If Cohen were to buy the Jets (are they really an NFL caliber team?)…..I’ll let one use their imagination on how that would play with trump…. :))))

  267. 267.

    NotMax

    @SFAW

    Took me several minutes to get you were referring to North high school. Staid and impressive – on the outside.

    :)

    Have a step-relation who still holds on to a few pieces of New York Titans memorabilia.

  272. 272.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @NotMax:

    Hah, something to look forward to

    ; )

    @Dan B:

    It’s tempting to want the GOP to rip itself to shreds, but it won’t be a good thing if an entire political party institutionally collapses. Those crazies will still be around. The last time that happened in American history was the Whigs

  274. 274.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I can see why it scarred you. [Figuratively speaking, of course.] It probably would do that to me as well.

    Re: ” ’70s pap”: When I was in college, the nearest watering hole ALWAYS seemed to have “How Long Has This Been Going On?” [by Ace, not Gershwin] playing on the juke when I was there. It was enough to drive me to drink.

  275. 275.

    debbie

    @Redshift:

    He would be back in there by now if it was about decorations. He’s all about demonstrating his power, and the Oval Office certainly conveys power. Especially since his time there is coming to an end, you would think he would be camping out there.

  276. 276.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think it was his continuing abuse aimed at that commenter that got him banned.

    I missed all that, and thus assumed it was because he seemed to be stalking you. [“I miss Omnes” “Where’s Omnes?” and so forth]

  281. 281.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @Omnes Omnibus: But, but, I thought the 4.2 was kind of an important little piece of artillery for the infantry in that war… Not nearly as impressive looking as what you had when you weren’t on leave skiing though.

    The song’s very sad (“Dave”) but the guy it was written for was a huge Robert Fripp fan, and that makes the story better for me.

  284. 284.

    Dan B

    @mrmoshpotato:  A hypothesis that will be clarified in time.

    Another hypothesis:  The rupture in the GOP is between the GRU influenced and the Chinese influenced.  Or it could be factions  in the Kremlin.

    Fun time waster in the time of social isolation distancing.

  286. 286.

    CaseyL

    @Dan B: They come in many flavors and aren’t well organized.

    The Young Turks.

    The hardcore BernieBros, currently dragging Biden for his “corporatist neoliberal” Cabinet picks.  These were also the “Kamala is a COP!” cadre.

    The left-wing anti-vaxxers pushing “natural immunity” (i.e. deliberately catch whooping cough, measles, mumps, and chicken pox) or inventing conspiracies between Big Pharma and doctors.

    …that lot.

  287. 287.

    SFAW

    @oclib:

    I think you’re right re: You-Know-Who getting turned down.

    As far as the Jets: they’re pretty effing bad this year, but I’m assuming Cohen would get rid of Gase and Douglas and their OC before the ink was dry. Get a QB coach who knows what he’s doing, maybe save Darnold from the scrap heap. But, of course, Cohen is a Mets guy, it’s too much to hope that he also buys out Woody Johnson.

    What I’m REALLY hoping Cohen does is convince Theo Epstein to come out of retirement/sabbatical, hire him, and turn him loose. [But I’m also hoping to wake up young-and-handsome tomorrow AM.]

  289. 289.

    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho

    @Omnes Omnibus: I never thought you were! I was riffing on your very (impressively) dry “Artillery” replies. I know my life is going sideways when I can no longer convey wit sensibly. Perhaps following replies back to the prompting comment and then getting back to where you started is as unreliable for you as it is for me.

    Nice chatting with you, as always.

  290. 290.

    Dan B

    @L85NJGT: Thanks for the image of Tang the Supreme in a Space Force Uniform.  Images should carry a warning for small children, small animals, most adults but Qanon, the sane, etc.

    I hope this vision avoids my dreams.

  293. 293.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Most accurate gun the US ever had.

    Since I know approx zero about artillery: what does that mean in practical terms? That it can put a shell within (for example) 10 yards of the target at the limit of its range

    ETA: Just Wiki’d it. Impressive-looking machine. I expected to see a semi-fixed unit, similar to a 155mm, to give you an idea of how little I know about it.

  294. 294.

    Ian

    @Baud:  I’m assuming you are being sarcastic, but y’all are being just a wee bit alarmist about this.  Internet companies will survive without liability protections, and the protections they do currently have are plenty fine for them with or without this modification.

  295. 295.

    Dan B

    @CaseyL:  I went to the National Socialist Convention in 1970.  That and some meetings at Freeway Hall were the most vicious events I’ve experienced.  They may have been infiltrated by CoInTelPro to rile everyone up.

    And there were the fights between Stalinists, Trotskyites, Marxists, etc.  Fun times!  /

    Kamala is a Cop disturbs me as do your other examples.  Saving grace is gratefully absent murderous intent.

  298. 298.

    Goku (Amerikan Baka)

    @Dan B:

    They may have been infiltrated by CoInTelPro to rile everyone up.

    I’d say that’s pretty certain. COINTELPRO was pretty fucked up

  299. 299.

    NotMax

    @Dan B

    there were the fights between Stalinists, Trotskyites, Marxists, etc.

    “And everybody hates the Jews.”
      – Tom Lehrer
    .

    :)

  300. 300.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: With good targeting info, you could get all 24 guns in a battalion to put their rounds on a target the size of a football field from a distance of over 10 km.  You normally wouldn’t fire a converge sheaf with that many guns on any target, but if you wanted to, the 8″ was your boy.

  301. 301.

    Dan B

    @NotMax:  Thanks for the LOL / Snorting / scaring cats!  But don’t you think that Tang the Most Malevolent would pitch forward from the further imbalance?

    Oh, I forgot about weightlessness.  Never mind!

  304. 304.

    Dan B

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka):  We got decent at picking some of them out.  The convicts who were given pardons – temporary if you met their goals – were non-stop rude and disruptive.  Some were mentally unstable.  Others were undoubtedly clever con artists so it was tricky trying to accuse anybody.

  306. 306.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Think of it as a notional football field.  Maybe something around that size that is storing gas and oil.  Big badaboom!

  311. 311.

    L85NJGT

    @Goku (Amerikan Baka):

    I read somewhere there isn’t a foundry left on the planet that can do larger than a 155mm barrel. Large caliber guns aren’t cost effective in an age of drones and laser guided munitions.

  313. 313.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @L85NJGT: The guns we had in the the late ’80s were built in the the 1950s and retubed (given new barrels) in the 1970s.  Those guns were phased out in early ’90s.  They were dinosaurs, anachronisms but still impressive.

  314. 314.

    Suzanne

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    What I don’t get is why isn’t the military considered apart of the “deep state”, anyway, to these loons? The military-industrial complex is a thing that exists 

    If you ascribe to Joan Williams’ thoughts on this, it’s because white working class men love the military. It’s seen as honorable and most importantly, properly masculine. “Turning boys into men” and all that shit.

  316. 316.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Why were they in service for so many decades?

    @Dan B:

    It’s hard to organize when you have opponents willing to do underhanded crap like that

    @L85NJGT:

    They’re impressive feats of engineering for sure

  318. 318.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    So peak Trump right here; Trump is threatening to take the military pay away over some BS while at the same time fantasying about those very same troops staging a Coup to keep him in power.

  322. 322.

    NotMax

    @SFAW

    I do appreciate the LIRR not giving the financial behemoth additional advertising; they changed the name of the stop from Willet’s Point-Shea Stadium to using just Willet’s Point or in season Mets-Willet’sPoint.

  323. 323.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Having worked in the Military Industrial Complex it’s amazing the number of conservatives in the aforesaid complex who don’t understand it’s all funded by public money.  It’s a bit like “don’t socialize my medicare”

  324. 324.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Basically, the 8″ howitzer was no longer being made.  They kept it in service as long as they could keep them working and had enough parts to fix ’em.  Once it was too much effort to keep enough units in the field, they phased it out.  Its role was taken by the MLRS and the M109 howitzer.  Neither could match what the M110A2 could do by itself, but two together could do its mission plus other things that 8″ couldn’t do.

  327. 327.

    Bookeater (formerly JosieJ)

    @SFAW: thanks, but I took the comment down because, while I was typing, the conversation moved on!

     

    Backing down will, at the very least, cause Trump actual psychic pain.  At least I can get small comfort from that!

  330. 330.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Omnes Omnibus: 
    Interesting. And makes sense.

    @Suzanne: 

    If you ascribe to Joan Williams’ thoughts on this, it’s because white working class men love the military. It’s seen as honorable and most importantly, properly masculine. “Turning boys into men” and all that shit.

    Would go a long way to explaining the hard hats during Vietnam heckling anti-war protestors

  332. 332.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Having worked in the Military Industrial Complex it’s amazing the number of conservatives in the aforesaid complex who don’t understand it’s all funded by public money.  It’s a bit like “don’t socialize my medicare”

    I suppose they all think the Free Market pays them, huh?

  333. 333.

    burnspbesq

    @Amir Khalid:

    Speaking of “who plays what,” I was pretty surprised last night to tune into a livestream from Norway of the Hedwig Mollestad Trio and see the jazz-metal-fusion ace playing a 335 (through what looked like a 1970s Fender Bandmaster and a 4×12 cabinet). Yup, the instrument associated with B.B. King, Larry Carlton, and Vince Gill.

  334. 334.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):  Yes, typical defense worker is went from high school to the military, retired after 20 years, got his collage degree threw the GI bill, then went to work in the Defense Industry. They are all self made men who never took a dime of public money.

  336. 336.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’ve talked to some who do know it’s funded by public money, but turn into Keynesians mindful of the value of economic stimulus whenever the talk turns to defense, while regarding all other public spending as dumping their tax dollars into the toilet.

  337. 337.

    Matt McIrvin

    (The other, related area where this happens is SPAAAACE!! Libertarian space fans who want the welfare state to be eliminated largely so all that tax money can fund giant rockets instead. Related are the ones who idolize Elon Musk for doing it independently of The Gubmint but politely disregard who’s paying him.)

  338. 338.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @NotMax:

    We farred our cannon till the barrel melted down
    So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round:
    We filled his head with cannonballs & powdered his behind
    And when we touched the powder off the ‘gator lost his mind…

    Um, I would imagine so. (Johnny Horton, “Battle of New Orleans.” Audio & lyrics here. :^D)

  339. 339.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: These people are pathologically short-sighted.

    Truly. The godbothered and unedjumacated aren’t stupid, exactly. But they aren’t exactly intelligent either. What they are – at least the brightest among them – is clever.They can recognize situations where a certain action will immediately benefit them, and they will take such actions – but you have to have a certain amount of training in how to think to follow a train of thought further down the line to gauge the ultimate consequences. Instead they go barreling ahead, only realizing that the bridge is out too late to keep from tumbling into the gorge.

    (Trust me on this, I grew up among them.)

  340. 340.

    ballerat

    This is very interesting. I am inclined to agree but admittedly I haven’t thought it through much.

    A quick search on section 230 brought this up from Forbes.com:

    [Section 230] offers a broad shield to tech companies, protecting them from lawsuits over content generated by users on their sites. It gives Twitter and Facebook the right to moderate content but does not give them the responsibility to do so. “Because content is posted on their platforms so rapidly there’s just no way they can possibly police everything,” says Sen. Ron Wyden, who helped create Section 230.

    In essence, the act treats internet businesses “very similar to how we treat the Post Office,” [tech ethicist David Ryan] Polgar explains. “There’s misinformation all the time that people are sending through letters, but you don’t blame the Post Office. They’re merely the conduit.”

    But Facebook et al aren’t like the Post Office at all. Facebook is not some passive conduit of information; it actively shapes a narrative, partly based on what their users view, and partly based on its own political agenda and business goals. The USPS does not do this. For example, they do not funnel more and more radical alt-right information to a user because she’s sent money via the mail to a Trump fundraiser or mailed in a subscription to a Proud Boys newsletter.

    In other words, the USPS does not read your goddamned mail and and use that information in an attempt to create a narrative for their own benefit.

    So if this was the original intent of Section 230, then technological advances, aka spying on users and content algorithms, have rendered it obsolete.

    I don’t have the answer to this but it is obvious Section 230 isn’t working as intended because social media companies are not “merely” a conduit.

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