Josh Marshall has been banging this drum for a while, and he’s right:
Republicans like Marco Rubio are now claiming to be aghast, hurt and more than anything else unwilling to believe in Democratic promises of rebuilding national unity because Joe Biden’s campaign manager and incoming Deputy Chief of Staff called congressional Republicans “fuckers” in an interview. Days ago we heard that Biden’s forceful denunciation of Republican efforts to overturn the result of the election was “burning bridges” to Trump supporters. We’ve seen this pattern before: bad faith taking of umbrage to justify new forms of bad behavior and predation.
It’s not only that. The production of and the stoking of grievances is central to contemporary conservatism and its apotheosis, Trumpism. But it is mostly the weaponization of bad faith.
This to me is the greatest negative lesson of the Obama era: the willing engagement of good faith with bad faith in which bad faith is, by definition, always the winner. I am so proud of Obama’s presidency, all it represented, all it accomplished. But it does not diminish that to recognize that he and his administration wasted a great deal of time pursuing the vain belief that it could out-reasonable Republicans into good or at least good faith behavior.
[…]Nothing good can come of the confrontation between good faith and bad faith engagement. In the future we may return to a civic space where a degree of good faith engagement can allow those of differing outlooks and ideologies to collaborate and compromise on consensus solutions. But we are not there now. We are not really there on the substance: we’re that divided. And we’re certainly not there on the good faith. Indeed, pursuing good faith engagement with bad faith actors only enables and fuels this corrosive, anti-civic behavior. The answer is for Democrats to use the political power they gain to make as much positive change as possible, using everything legitimate lever at their disposal. Getting sucked into Republican mind games is time wasting and destructive.
Marshal’s piece is behind the TPM paywall, but the article that he recommends at Vox is not.
Respite Open Thread: More Holiday Fun
kindness
I pay for TPM’s subscription now. Once I did it, I was so happy to have done it.
Chyron HR
If I were Obama, I would have simply told congressional Republicans to look out the window.
Emerald
Yes, Obama certainly did continue to reach out to Republicans, fruitlessly. Frankly I doubt he was that naive, yet he continued to do it.
Wondering why. Possibilities:
Anybody have any other possible reasons why?
pacem appellant
New rule: Every time a GOPer clutches their pearls, we kick them in the nuts. When they cry foul, we kick them harder.
MisterForkbeard
@kindness: Me too. I’ve considered paying for their ad-free sub too, so I have an excuse to throw more money at them.
MattF
Yup. ‘Bad faith’ is a somewhat elusive notion– not the same thing as hypocrisy or lying although it certainly entails both. More to do with interaction and intent. Here‘s Wikipedia’s take.
gene108
@Chyron HR:
Republicans did look out the window, and they saw a bunch of tricorn hat wearing folks, who rabidly hated Obama and were propped up by Fox News and Americans for Prosperity, so their reach far exceeded their numbers
Edit: All the noise about “Stop the Steal”, Hunter Biden’s emails or whatever, & whatever else is the rage de jour is building outrage for 2022 without the advantage of a black man in the White House to get conservatives outraged.
Yarrow
I fully expect Biden to put on a good show of reaching across the aisle and other unity tropes. I would like for him and his staff to understand it’s all just for show and wield their knives with skill.
Cheryl Rofer
Do not confuse the appearance of good faith on the part of Democratic presidents with naivete.
It’s a good move to extend good will. It makes you the good guy (if looking somewhat naive) and leaves a space for the other side to come around or look like the bad guy.
The question is when one pulls back that outstretched hand, or, better, when one calls the other side on their bad behavior. Starting out by noting that Republicans are fuckers is not a bad move in this direction. You can even do both at once.
So Biden extends good will. He also pointed out, in his Electoral College speech, the myriad ways Donald Trump is not only showing ill will, he is abandoning his responsibilities as president. The fact of this speech, and the non-response to Republican fuckers’ pearl-clutching, indicates there is more to come.
Baud
@Chyron HR:
I’m with you. I can nitpick too, but the notion that there was some other strategy that would have clearly produced better results is simply unsupported dogma.
That said, Biden’s approach has to reflect the current situation, in a post-Trump world.
JoyceH
@Emerald: I think that’s pretty much it. Year after year the public tells the pollsters that they want the parties to get along to solve the nation’s problems. So yeah, Joe should offer to work with Republicans. With a deadline. Don’t let them string you along anymore. The exception to this is everything Trump did by executive order. Undo those things by executive order, no GOP input needed or desired.
Another Scott
@Emerald: 4. Being the Angry Black Man was against his nature and would have been hugely counter-productive in upcoming elections.
Obama was constrained by several tropes that Biden will not be. In spite of that, he got an amazing amount done. Let’s remember that nobody got anywhere close to universal health care coverage before Obama.
Cheers,
Scott.
Just Chuck
To Marco: Shut the fuck up you traitorous fucker.
Another Scott
+1
Cheers,
Scott.
CaseyL
@Cheryl Rofer: From your mouth the FSM’s noodly auricles!
I, too, am hoping that Biden’s stated belief/hope that he can work with the GOP is a velvet glove concealing HULK SMASH strategies and personnel. Considering the corruption and sedition the GOP has indulged, taken part in, and funded, there should be a lot of material he can work with if he can get court-ready evidence of same.
gene108
@Another Scott:
What Obama does not get enough credit for is improving social indicators, especially teen pregnancy rates. His administration promoted comprehensive science based sex education, and that helped get teen pregnancy rates to the lowest levels ever.
Plus high school graduation rates reached the highest rates ever, at around 80%.
And crime rates continued to decline.
There was a concerted effort, in my opinion, to diminish these improvements during the Obama years.
EDIT: There really was an effort to ignore the positives during the Obama years and zero in on the negatives.
MisterForkbeard
@Emerald: I think Obama had to try to reach out, after the campaign he ran. And morally, he had to give them a chance to pull out of the nation-destroying dive they were in. They had a really good opportunity to do that in 2008 – they’d lost really big two elections in a row and were openly talking about how they needed to change.
Baud
@Cheryl Rofer:
The Internet always does that though. We give our leaders no room to posture. We expect them to share their strategy publicly with us so we can approve it, and when they play it close to the vest we presume bad faith.
The Thin Black Duke
After the agonizing eight years of the Obama presidency and seeing how the GOP ruthlessly attacked his son during the campaign, I’m confident that Biden will have no problem slipping on the brass knuckles behind closed doors.
Betty Cracker
@Cheryl Rofer: I think Marshall’s point is Biden shouldn’t waste one minute waiting/hoping for Republicans to come around to claim “bipartisan support” for something. As much as it irritates me, presidents do sort of have to do the bipartisan kabuki. But political power has a countdown clock on it, so they have to be shoring up the votes in their own caucus and moving forward with dispatch.
Yarrow
@Baud: Not sure about The Internet as a whole, but Biden has said outright that his campaign ignored Twitter. Seems like a sound plan for his administration as well.
Kent
As a Black man the media narrative around Obama was always going to be different and unfair. He knew that better than anyone. The minute he goes off on McConnell the “angry Black man” shit starts to circulate and they all have vapors like they are trying to do with Warnock today.
Women get the same treatment
Also, acting bipartisan gives cover to the blue dog types who need it.
VOR
Yes, but we have a black woman as VP.
I mean, they are claiming Joe Biden, once known as the Senator from MBNA, is a socialist. Reality has little to do with conservatives being outraged.
Baud
@Yarrow: Agreed. If there’s a silver lining to Trump, hopefully it’s that his stank has discredited Twitter “wisdom.”
Baud
@VOR: Interestingly, and happily, I haven’t seen much consternation about Kamala in the media. The normalcy of it is nice.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Emerald: He was running against McCain who was a media darling. It’s hard enough running as a Democrat, but also as the first Black nominee with a funny mooslim name he felt, rightfully so, that he needed to win the press over (see press goring Gore and relentless “but her emails” attacks). So he won them over by saying he would change the tone of Washington. He couldn’t simply abandon that once he got in office.
piratedan
if these guys are so “aggrieved” at being called fuckers, then stop doing the very same bahaviors that “fuckers” engage in…
You want some fucking “unity”, how about recognizing just WHO won the election…
Maybe say something about getting financial relief to those that need it and stop letting McConnell fuck things about
it’s a two way street Marco old buddy, you want to avoid being labelled as a “fucker”, then how about stepping up and stop actually being one.
Kent
Probably because Trump is still sucking all the oxygen out of the room. Give them time.
trollhattan
@The Thin Black Duke:
You and me, both. I’m guessing while Joe is many things naive is not one, and he had a front-row seat to the mal-treatment of Obama for eight long years. Whatever his “blue collar” past does or does not mean, he carries some concept of street justice because of it.
gene108
@Emerald:
Obama’s mistake was not in reaching out, he and Congressional Democrats kept playing by the pre-McConnell-Boehner*-obstruction-always-rules far longer than they should have, in retrospect.
* Boehner (and later Ryan) strangled bills dead as Speaker, which gets overlooked. There was an immigration reform bill that passed the Senate with something like 68 votes. Boehner refused to allow the House to vote on it.
WaterGirl
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Barack Obama truly wanted to change the tone of our politics. That wasn’t an act. But the republicans declared war on Obama on day 1, literally day one.
wvng
@Emerald: The MSM expects it … from Democrats.
trollhattan
Did DougJ NYTimes Pitchbot add the LA Times to his pitch list? Because this op/ed title seems too on the nose not to be parody.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Also, “reaching out” plays well with moderates and independents.
and it worked. He limited Mittens to 47% of the vote and McCain to 46% of the vote.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Dorothy A. Winsor
@trollhattan: As if!
PsiFighter37
I liked Jon Favreau’s response to Marco Rubio: “Prove that you’re not a fucker, fucker”. Pitch-perfect.
Kent
And a front-row seat to the campaign to destroy his son that resulted in Trump’s impeachment and continued on after that.
There is probably no one in the Democratic party with less illusions about the GOP, and more personal experience with their fuckery, than Biden.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@trollhattan: I’m not sure if Porky Pig is available.
Peale
@trollhattan: Yep. They’ll run 100 editorials about how upstanding Barr was and how our concerns about his appointment were overblown. But get one whiff of a Democrat who thinks that maybe Republican leaning organization grift needs to be tamped down on and its “Oh, he’s now disqualified. and She’s too petty.”
trollhattan
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Son of a….
They clearly all got new, shiny shovels for a month’s worth of more continual digging.
Cheryl Rofer
@Baud: Well said. And it betrays an extreme naivete on the part of the internet. Drives me crazy.
Paul W.
@Cheryl Rofer: Agree, I never took issue with the appearance of reaching across the aisle (especially when DC and a large portion of the Dem caucus demanded it), but we need Biden to take NO for an answer and then move forward quickly.
And by quickly, I mean push EVERY button possible and just flood the zone in the way Trump successfully did during his term.
The final step Dems need is to start picking up megaphones and taking credit for every single little good thing that is in these bills and even the little bits of good news (vaccines, returning economy) that are baked into the 2021 cake already. Stop hoping that people will “see things for what they are”, they need to be told loudly and often! Good lord, Trump almost got re-elected because he bailed out the same farmers he impoverished and then got his name onto checks for a stimulus he lifted not a finger to pass!
Cheryl Rofer
@Betty Cracker: It’s not kabuki. It’s the way you bring people around or, if they don’t come around, make permission to smash them.
Super Dave
@pacem appellant: Loved your new rule so much I stole it when I posted this piece to social media. Thanks for that!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Apparently the latest outrage is Biden’s wife doctorate.
jl
I agree 100 percent. Thanks for pointing out the Marshall piece.
There’s a good chance that Biden can do a better job at this than other recent Democratic leaders, from the Clintons, to Obama, to Pelosi and Schumer. People forget the snarky Biden who can issue shade that has some heft, like a 2 by 4. He’s the guy who said of Giuliani “There’s only three things he mentions in a sentence: a noun, a verb and 9/11.”
Biden also has his experience during the Obama administration, which I hope was instructive. Obama tried an experiment in assuming good faith at the beginning (and arguably lasted too long). Biden is far more inclusive of the range of Democratic ideologies in his staffing choices than recent Democratic administrations, so has a better chance of getting backing from a wider range of the party.
I think there good reason to always start out by reaching out, the problem with recent Democratic efforts at this is that they never change course after repeated demonstrations of extremely bad faith by the GOP. Biden is doing due diligence in reaching out, but in my view, he signaled he is prepared to change course in his latest speech, and call out BS, and is willing to make his case directly to the public. So, some good signs from Biden.
Kent
Breaking…
Deb Haaland for Interior. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/12/17/deb-haaland-interior-secretary-biden/
Cheryl Rofer
Deb Haaland is Biden’s choice for Secretary of the Interior.
She will be a great Secretary. Amazing for a Native American to hold that position.
pacem appellant
@Super Dave: You’re welcome! Biden and Obama may be for comity, but mocking these asshats when they feign indignation over a swear is deserving of nothing but mocking, malicious laughter.
Cheryl Rofer
jl
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I wasted a few minutes actually reading through the whole National Review BS on Dr. Jill Biden. It is the kind of pathetic nonsense that needs to be called out.
There was nothing in it but insults. The writer claimed he read the dissertation, didn’t say a word about what was in it, just said he didn’t like it.
At least Obama did wear a tan suit. There was a fact to hang that BS on. They can’t even be bothered to do that much work anymore
Edit: OTOH, did we really ever know exactly what kind of mustered he put on the burger? So, there is precedent for them forging ahead with no content or fact.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Biden could also have his eyes on a bigger prize and make the political scene a choice between the Democrats who are the decent people who get stuff done and the Republicans who do nothing but attack each other.
I’ve noticing a lot of Republicans upset about people changing their voter preferences. One of the big arguments that there was fraud in 2020 is how come so many people changed their votes from Republican to Democrat in the last four years (apparently in Wingnut land party preference is a life time choice, or something). Biden might be looking for reasons to give more Republicans to switch teams.
Edmund Dantes
So long as they don’t try to cut social security again. They should be fine. But we shall see.
no one forced that on the previous Obama/Biden but they kept pushing for it. Only thing that saved them was a refusal of GOP to say yes.
Gravenstone
@Baud: That changes the microsecond we (hopefully) win both GA Senate races and sideline McConnell. In her official role as president of the Senate, she will immediately be placed under a microscope by the media and relentlessly abused by Republicans at all levels. She will become their ultimate boogey(wo)man.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Cheryl Rofer: I love the idea of a Native American in that job, and Haaland will do a good job.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@jl: I just took as more the Far Right’s War On Reality. Anyone who has a doctorate from an accredited school is on the enemy’s list because they contributed the advancement of knowledge.
Obama did admit to a preference to dangerously socialized dijon mustard and not hard working French’s mustard. The Founding Father weep.
Ksmiami
@Chyron HR: fuck the traitorous shitbag Republicans forever
jl
@Gravenstone: If they want to poke enough at Willie Brown with a stick to give him the spotlight to skewer GOP BS, fine with me. Maybe get Jerry Brown to join in.
Citizen Alan
@JoyceH:
Those polls are meaningless noise, because overwhelmingly, people who demand national unity really mean that they want the people on the other of their pet issue to surrender unconditionally. I don’t know how it could be structured, but I’d really love to see a poll that investigated how willing people of both sides are to compromise on various hot-button issues.
“Would you be more willing to support DACA and liberal immigration reform in exchange for limitations on abortion rights?”
“Would you support Trump’s wall in exchange allowing abortions to be covered by Medicaid and guaranteeing abortion access in all 50 states?”
The second you explain that “unity” can only come if both sides are willing (or able, in the case of deeply held moral positions) to compromise and give something to get something else, support for real unity collapses.
jl
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I especially enjoy the Ivy League GOPers sneering at state universities, and then calling Dems elitist.
But I am a state school person too, so I admit I have a dog in that fight.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Cheryl Rofer: Why does it not surprise me one bit that twit Trump jerks it to a picture of Andrew Jackson?
Betty Cracker
@Cheryl Rofer: Kabuki, posturing, whatever you want to call it, a significant portion of political machinations are pure theater, IMO. That’s even more true since the Republicans completely lost their minds, so no one can reasonably expect them to negotiate in good faith, but people expect the show.
Benw
Fuckers is our compromise term, mofos
jl
BTW, IIRC, even McD and Burger King squirt some mustered on their burgers, so I never understood that one.
I always asked for extra mustered whenever I ate that crap, so I have a dog in that fight too. But, they never chased me out of those joints, either.
Hildebrand
@Emerald: And even then, Obama was flayed for not doing enough of the drinks and dinner schmoozing thing to make nice, as if it were completely his responsibility to get the Republicans to act like human beings.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud:
In the big mainstream media, no. But go one millimeter into the right-wing fever swamp and it’s clear that Kamala Harris, not Joe Biden, is the one they’re really scared and horrified about, and you don’t need to spend one second guessing why.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@jl: Oh, makes sense now, the Wingnut Mean Girls are having a hissy that that someone actually earned their degree and it wasn’t bought for them by their dad.
Steve in the ATL
Have a carpenter doing some work here. The flags flying on his truck say “TRUMP 2020 STOP THE BULLSHIT”. Once he’s finished his work, I’ll tell him (1) “hey dumbass, your flag misspells ‘Biden’; your boy trump is 100% bullshit, and (2) “since you love the things trump does, I’m going to stiff you for the work you did!”
Matt McIrvin
@Yarrow: I keep thinking about the tweet I saw during the brief moment between Iowa and Super Tuesday when the primary race looked like a Bernie vs. Bloomberg contest, that said Bernie’s rise and Biden’s collapse had disproven forever the adage that “Twitter is not real life”.
Kent
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Haaland is a great pick. I haven’t run the numbers but I’m getting nervous about the Dem majority in the House if they keep robbing it for Cabinet spots. But I’m sure they are aware of their margins.
Haaland is most definitely NOT a “compromise” centrist pick like Vilsack. The first thing I want her to do is restore Bears Ears and eject all the right wing Mormon ranchers from that spot including the Bundys. And find a way to torpedo all the new oil lease auctions that Trump is rushing through.
Nora
@Citizen Alan: You’re right. Everybody wants “unity” and “people to work together” the same way everybody wants term limits for elected officials. Only not THEIR elected officials. The term limits argument always amused me: you want term limits, vote the jerks out every 2/4/6 years. The reason we have people who have been in government for decades is because the same people who think we should have term limits keep voting for their Senator, Representative, etc.
The truth is, nobody really wants to compromise because people have this idea that if they’re stubborn enough they can get exactly what they want and the other side can get nothing. All you need is for one party to take that position, and you can’t negotiate.
jl
@Matt McIrvin: They always do A/B testing to find out what is best to lead with. I’m sure they’re plotting the marketing trials as we type. They’ll get around to Harris soon enough.
They tried out some elitist Kerry attacks, non-beltway outsider attacks, from the communist degenerate foreign country of Hawaii attacks. But the racism angle was the jackpot, so they went with that.
Remember the ‘body surfing is a sissy sport’ attack? That was a variation on Kerry’s sailing.
Edit: the delay may be that to attack Biden and Harris too much right now would be an implicit admission that they will be the next president and VP, and Trump will be mean to them on twitter.
Geminid
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I remember Deb Haaland campaigning for Elizabeth Warren last January, alongside Ayanna Pressley and Katie Porter. Three very impressive Congresswomen.
Kent
Yep, in the right wing fever swamp it is an article of faith that Biden is just a stalking horse to put Kamala into the White House. Why that terrifies them more than Biden I don’t really understand. I think they are instinctively afraid she will pick up a knife and come for their testicles or something.
Betty Cracker
@Steve in the ATL: God, I hate that. When we had a new AC unit installed a couple of years ago, the guy who came out and gave us an estimate drove a regular work van, then the employee who showed up to do the work arrived in an obnoxious Trump mobile. Pissed me off!
If you pay with a check, write “Who’s sleepy now, bitch?” in the memo line!
Citizen Alan
If we can’t do that, I’m in favor of just selling off the grazing land the Bundys rely on to the highest bidder. I’d love to see those fuckers (I love that word now) squealing about having to actually pay market rates for grazing privileges and get sued for harassment if they try their usual schtick.
jl
OK, time for a pop quiz. Which Brown said (paraphrasing from memory): ‘You people in the media are like little lap dogs, every time the GOP burps or farts you run and sniff it’?
Biden can do that to, when he is in the mood. That was directed at the corporate media, but they are part of the GOP dog and pony show too.
zhena gogolia
@The Thin Black Duke:
Same here.
Calouste
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I wonder when anyone is going up to Dr. Vitali Klitschko* and say to his face that his PhD in sports science doesn’t count.
* former heavyweight boxing world champion
mad citizen
@Dorothy A. Winsor: It is an interesting press release from Pfizer. “We have millions of doses in our warehouses but no instructions on where to send them”. It would not surprise me in the least of the trump people screw this up. I thought that one General was in charge of all of the logistics.
Vaccine distribution is confusing to me. When will group 1B (65 and older/health conditions) be vaccinated? How will that happen? Who tells them? My health insurer promises vaccines for all of their members. At the same time my city’s new Health Department says it is running the distribution. In one article they even said they were receiving the vaccine (that seemed odd).
Gin & Tonic
@jl: Sounds like Willie.
karensky
@pacem appellant: @Baud: 100% agree. I would just add – wrestle them onto the mat and then pound them!
Barbara
@jl: I am trying to understand how a random journalist can even assume he has the expertise or understanding to evaluate it. Chutzpah in the extreme. Fuck all of them.
Gin & Tonic
@mad citizen: My dear wife is a hospital pharmacist, got dose #1 yesterday. She was surprised at how many of her co-workers were declining.
Anyway, their shipment is sitting in a locked freezer with a 24×7 armed guard. State Dept of Health came in with the shipment to make sure the freezer was at the proper temp.
Matt McIrvin
@Kent: Note also, the respectable-Right story of the week is not about Joe either, it’s about whether Dr. Jill Biden is unworthy of being called Doctor. I’m sure she has an answer ready if they ask her about baking cookies.
But if the new VP is both a woman AND black AND Indian AND the daughter of immigrants… it doesn’t even matter what her policy position is on anything, she’s going to be the alien monster waiting to burst forth from Biden’s chest (I have seen this metaphor used explicitly).
geg6
@MisterForkbeard:
I did. Totally worth it.
zhena gogolia
@Kent:
yay!
Kristine
@Citizen Alan:
I’ve noticed over the years that the MSM also refers to compromises in terms that make it sound like losing more than giving a little in order to move ahead. I often see the word “caving.” No one wants their negotiating to be cast in that light.
Not arguing that GOP hasn’t bargained in bad faith since ’09. But negotiating as a whole seems to have been recast as win/lose instead of give a little/get a little.
Wondering if bringing back earmarks would help. I’ve seen that discussed here before.
Kent
@Matt
Does anyone remember the GOP getting bent out of shape about Dr. Henry Kissinger?, whom I’m pretty sure never delivered any babies either
Another Scott
@Kent: I didn’t pay enough attention to him at the time, but… transcript:
Maybe he believes all that. Dunno. But he doesn’t seem like a compromise appointee.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
@Another Scott: I don’t have anything against Vilsack. But he was the most centrist candidate of all those who were on the reported shortlist.
As a westerner, I think it is about time someone with a forest management background gets to run Ag and start dealing with the fire problem here in the west that is largely on Forest Service lands, rather than an endless stream of Iowa corn farmer types. Or maybe a Californian who has experience with both big ag and fire management.
But that’s water under the bridge. I was just contrasting Vilsack to Haaland in terms of which was the most centrist pick.
Matt McIrvin
@mad citizen: In Massachusetts, “adults 65+” outside of nursing homes and assisted living are in “Phase Two”, slated generally for February to April, and in that category, they’re third in line behind individuals with multiple comorbidities and public-facing essential workers outside of healthcare facilities. But every state is probably different.
Another Scott
@Calouste: Obligatory…
(via Popehat)
Cheers,
Scott.
SiubhanDuinne
What great news, that President-elect Biden has selected Rep. Deb Haaland for his Secretary of the Interior! This man really does walk his talk.
Brachiator
Obama did not have much choice.
As it is, the Republicans decided to oppose Obama, no matter what. Early on they even declared that they intended to make him a one-term president.
Of course, this strategy was unleashed before by Newt Gingrich. The GOP was always angry that Bill Clinton found ways to “out-slick” them by using their own agenda against them. The Republicans refined their tactics when dealing with Obama.
Obama was in a no-win situation. Pundits and reports, especially but not only conservative pundits, simply cannot acknowledge racism.
Pundits were desperately looking for ways to portray Obama as either an angry black man, or worse, a revolutionary out to get whitey. The always cool and restrained Obama refused to feed their racist fears and fantasies by attempting to appear congenial.
Ironically, this also upset some progressives, who always expect people of color to be in the vanguard of overturning the system. This presumption is as racist as the bullshit spewed by asshole conservatives.
Cheryl Rofer
Kristine
@kindness: I just sub’ed, too.
Elie
@Cheryl Rofer:
Wise comment. In negotiations, its always important to “leave a space” as you called it, for your opponent to move. If you just hard charge everything, you don’t leave any possibility of success — even though it may be unlikely.
Trump is a horrible negotiator and people who follow him think his hard ball is effective. It isn’t. He is a loser and has had to capitulate and lose face many many times.
Negotiation and getting what you want is rarely about overpowering your opponent and making them capitulate. Leaving some good faith on the table may not be successful that day, but may allow you to engage with them on another. The only other option is war….
Cacti
If there’s one lesson that I wish Dem politicians would internalize, it’s this:
STOP APOLOGIZING TO THE FUCKERS!!!
jl
@Another Scott: RE cabinet picks, IMHO people forget that whether the secretaries merely implement policy or are given room to make it is the decision of the president. Biden is president not Vilsack.
Whether any specific choice is a good one depends on the type of person chosen and what the final interview was like. Was it “I’m giving you the portfolio because I have other things I need to keep on top of” or “You job will be to implement these plans with me.” We don’t know which it was for each nominee. Maybe some people who’ve followed the nominees’ histories in detail know more about how well suited a nominee is for which kind of role.
Kent
Exactly. In his 4 year presidency he has only achieved one legislative victory. His tax cuts. And that was more McConnell than Trump. He has not gotten a single other legislative initiative done that required any Dem votes. And hell, he didn’t get anything else done his first 2 years when he held both houses of Congress.
artem1s
@Emerald:
he was the first AA president and like it or not, bore an additional burden to appear to be the president of the whole country. It’s like Jackie Robinson needing to bear untold dignities and hold himself to a higher standard because he was first.
Joe has the luxury of white privilege and he knows he can approach the issue of bipartisanship from a more powerful position. I think that’s why he was such a great VP. He knew when he could take the body blows for his boss and how to be a good ally. He could get away with saying, “this is a big fucking deal” when Obama couldn’t. I have a hard time believing he’s going to get ruffled over Dillon’s gaff when he used the “gaff defense” whenever he needed cover in those instances when harsh language was necessary to get his point across.
AxelFoley
@Kent:
This. Absolutely this. Thank you.
I’m tired of hearing fools on the left calling Obama naive because he tried bipartisanship.
WaterGirl
@Steve in the ATL: Can we get video of that, please?!
gene108
@Citizen Alan:
Part of me really wants to to sell off some of the federal land the Bundys & other sovereign citizen types use to the highest bidder.
I’d love to see some Silicon Valley or Wall Street billionaires buy up the land, and never allow these folks, their ATV’s, and their cattle on the land ever again.
Matt McIrvin
@artem1s: They tried to paint Michelle Obama as some kind of violent black radical because sometimes she expressed displeasure with racism in a forceful tone of voice.
AxelFoley
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: @Emerald:
And this.
Kristine
@Cheryl Rofer:
I’m liking Joe-with-Sharp-Edges. Still the smile and the chuckle, but also the glint in the eye.
I also think he’s tucking every slam against his family in his back pocket, to be pulled out as needed. He doesn’t seem the type to let things like that slide. He may save it for level-voiced discussions in quiet rooms, but I don’t believe he’ll forget.
Kent
Yes and no. As a former Fed employee who spent some time working at the higher levels as an aid I can tell you that Cabinet secretaries have tremendous discretion and latitude. A lot of the exercise of power relates to how much emphasis you put on various things.
For example, the Department of Agriculture is doing 100+ important things at once from food stamps and school lunches to wildfire and forest management in western forests to ethanol and commodity export policy. How much time and effort and political capital is spent pushing each policy and providing it adequate high level staffing and budgets is as important as deciding what those policies are. That comes from the Cabinet and sub-Cabinet level leadership, not the White House.
I worked for NOAA during both the Clinton and Bush years and in some ways the Bush people were better on marine policy than the Clinton people because the Clinton people just weren’t paying any attention to it and let Congress in the form of Senator Stevens fill up the vacuum.
Doc Sardonic
@Cacti: Totally agree, when you are explaining you are losing, when you are apologizing, unless you have done or said something and are dead wrong, you’ve already lost.
Elie
@Kristine:
THIS
I also think he’s tucking every slam against his family in his back pocket, to be pulled out as needed. He doesn’t seem the type to let things like that slide. He may save it for level-voiced discussions in quiet rooms, but I don’t believe he’ll forget.
Mike in NC
@Matt McIrvin: Our Republican voting neighbors all think Joe Biden will be dead by June and then the world will end.
geg6
@Cheryl Rofer:
This makes me so happy that I’m kinda choking up a bit over it. Historic and heartening.
different-church-lady
@trollhattan: The NYT version would be, “The best way for Biden to heal the nation is to re-nominate Bill Barr for AG.”
Kent
Terrorist fist bumps?
Heywood J.
In my dream world, Biden calls up Rubio directly, says fuck your feelings, and hangs up.
Maybe I’ll go ahead and do it myself. These whiny hypocrites can go jump into a wood-chipper.
different-church-lady
@Benw: “Fuckers of Invention”
Matt McIrvin
@Mike in NC: Oh, yeah, all the people basically saying that Harris is going to have Biden whacked so she can institute her Maoist reign of terror.
Mai Naem mobile
@Kent: Don’t forget Doctor Condoleezza Rice. No conservative had a problem with Condi Rice being called Doctor Condoleezza Rice who BTW is just a worthless human being. She’s the head honcho at the Hoover Institution and had to basically be shamed into disavowing Doctor Scott Atlas. And she couldn’t find anything positive to say about Doug Jones(who went after the guy who bombed the Church bombing of the three little girls who were friends of Condi) and nothing negative Roy Moore because apparently you can’t be negative about a republican even if they’re a child diddler.
different-church-lady
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: The winging only gets as big as it’s tank.
This is a very small tank.
leeleeFL
@pacem appellant: THIS sounds like an excellent idea! So Sick and Tired of their undiluted BULLSHITE! If only we could use it to fertilize stuff, but it’s likely toxic in deed as well as in word! Fuckers!
Dan B
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Deb Haaland will strike fear in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. From what I’ve heard from the few good people who have worked there it is controlled by sadists. They derive joy in tormenting the tribes.
dexwood
@Cheryl Rofer: mrs. dexwood is dancing with joy. Deb Haaland is her distant cousin. Laguna power!
JPL
Former HHS Tom Price’s wife Betty Price is concerned about the GA voters Surely, she has traveled to North Georgia and met with the republicans that reside their, so I’m not sure who she is talking about.
patrick Il
Isn’t Marco of the fragile feelings the guy who started the Trump package / hand size discussion that we had to see Trump defend during a national debate?
leeleeFL
@jl: And dare one hope he knows about a skeleton or two he could mention, quietly of course, to convince someone to do something helpful. Might have already used them, but hey, a girl can dream!
jl
@Kent: I can see your point. But I’d answer that it really depends on what kind of person you appoint; what kind of role are they suited for. If you appoint the wrong sort of person for the kind of job you want them to do, then I agree with your points 100 percent.
And, IIRC, it was Laura Bush who explained (very strongly and bigly) to GW why environmental marine policy was important. So, we have another intermediary layer of command there, and it seemed to have worked.
Though I am very sure Laura Bush could explain things strongly and bigly far better than Trump could ever dream of, or 90 percent of the rich white, mostly superannuated male, farts in DC running things.
leeleeFL
@patrick Il: THE VERY SAME!
OGLiberal
Fuckers.
Uncle Cosmo
Just dropped in to note another instance of the hazards of relying too much on spell-check (or auto-correct): Mustered is a perfectly good word, the past tense or past participle of the verb “to muster.” It is completely unrelated to mustard, the spicy condiment, other than being pronounced the same. If auto-correct (or spell-check) doesn’t incorporate syntax or context checking, it has neither reason to correct, nor means of correcting, a word that is properly spelled; the human author has to overrule the machine.
(FTR, “affect/effect” is an even more complex situation: Both words can be used as nouns, both can be used as verbs; but “affect” is rarely intended as a noun outside of technical papers in psychology, and “effect” is rarely intended as a verb outside of lugubrious bureaucratic reports. The machine, unless it’s very sophisticated, can’t tell which is intended; the human author needs to step in.) /pedant
different-church-lady
@Mike in NC: I kinda hope they’re right about the second part.
jl
@Uncle Cosmo: Thanks. I know mustard from mustered, so I wonder if that was a spell check issue that I didn’t notice.
I’m on a PC today, and at least that is not as bad as what my cell phone often does.
Edit: It is true that I have mustered lots of mustard for my burgers and hotdogs in that past, and still do, whenever I still eat that stuff.
Kent
@jl: I think we agree. My point is that the Federal government is far too vast and complicated for executive branch policy to be micro-managed out of the White House. Which means putting the right leadership into Cabinet and sub-Cabinet agency positions is extremely important. The wrong person with the wrong motives can slow-walk stuff to death in ways that never really get noticed.
Dems do have an advantage over Republicans in that they mostly just want government to work like it is supposed to which means they can rely on dedicated career staff much more than the GOP who wants to undermine government and needs their own immoral lackeys in place to do that.
jl
@Kent: I think your point is quite good and relevant to Biden’s cabinet picks.
I don’t know whether Biden told Vilsack that his main job is to implement the campaign plans they hatched, and all of his decisions should be made in the same spirit to support that plan, or not. And I don’t know whether Vilsack is the kind of person who is good for that role.
I know economics in more detail. So Yellen is probably a very good fit, and Biden can just talk with her about general goals, and ask her to handle the details of her portfolio, with periodic check ins.
Cheryl Rofer
@dexwood: Cool!
Bluegirlfromwyo
@Matt McIrvin: This. I had a wingnut helpfully inform me that I only voted for Joe Biden in the hopes that he’d die, just to shove Kamala down his throat. This was last week. It’ll get worse by next week.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
He has experience!
Baud
@JPL: I hereby cancel Betty Price.
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: That is such good news and it’s about time.
jl
@Baud: Thomas Jefferson said that any fool has the right to vote, and it should be respected.
So, if Trumpsters (extraordinary fools) and Baudists (ordinary fools) meet that standard, then occasional voters in Georgia elections do to.
Baud
@jl:
Yeah, but TJ didn’t mean black people should vote and neither does Betty Price.
jl
@Baud: The needed investigations and if warranted, prosecutions of many Trump officials must be legit. So, sadly, Barr is out.
sixthdoctor
AOC weighs in, and yep, she’s dead on target.
jl
@Baud: Good point. OTOH, Jefferson didn’t go after the states that back then did allow free blacks to vote, and the modern GOP is, so there is still some distinction.
Jeffro
Biden has already seen that:
Oh, and he’s also seen that they’re willing to go after the First Lady-elect for her degree, fer chrissakes. Not for being a nude model/ex-escort or for committing immigration fraud…for having an advanced degree. Can’t work with slimeballs like that so oh well, GOP, we’ll be bipartisan about something just as soon as you pick a standard – ANY. STANDARD. AT ALL. – and apply it equally to both parties. Go ahead, we’ll wait…
Anyway…I have little doubt that Biden and his team will smile and keep right on rolling. Blitz? Hell yeah. What have we been saying all year? They’re going to need to hit the ground full-on sprinting, not just running.
I hope he starts off with a flat-out big tax increase on the 1% and then cuts direct relief checks to the bottom 90%. I hope he signs an omnibus executive order that undoes every order trumpov ever wrote before he even leaves the Inauguration stage. I hope he starts off every press conference by noting what trumpov was doing on the exact same day of his presidency (noting especially the golf and tweeting). And it is just a must that his administration pursues every case of fraud, embezzlement, grift, cronyism, and what not – loudly, publicly, with charges brought and jail terms handed out.
Martin
@Emerald: He wasn’t naive. He told them as much in his question time meeting:
That was the polite version of anthrax and tire rims.
jl
@jl: So, the current GOP is more racist in some ways that the slavers among the founders. That is quite an accomplishment.
mrmoshpotato
YOU RUSSTHUGLICAN TRUMP-HUMPING TRAITOROUS MOTHERFUCKERS!
FUCK YOU ALL, YOU SOVIET SHITPILE FUCKING FUCKERS!
Kent
It is also why experience in government is much more important than people tend to think. Effective leadership is knowing what buttons to push and where the veto points are. That only comes with experience and/or having really top quality staff to advise you. I expect Buttigieg to do a good job because he is so exceedingly bright and knows how government works in general, even if he doesn’t have any relevant DOT experience. He will know the right questions to ask.
I’m still waiting to see who Biden picks for my old agency, Commerce. My FB feed that is full of old NOAA work colleagues is going to explode when that happens.
Ruckus
@Citizen Alan:
Conservatives like unity, as long as you give them everyfuckingthing they want. Plus something from the secret vault of how can we screw you today?
danielx
Fuckin’ A.
Ksmiami
@Steve in the ATL: then tell him you’ll never hire him again and you’ll tell all your friends he’s an ass
Kent
They both just want only the “right” Black people to vote. Not the rest of them, God forbid!
Ruckus
@Kent:
Quite possibly she should…..
tony in san diego
@Emerald: unlike Biden, Obama was a Senator for only about two years (?). He still had stars in his eyes. Biden was in the Senate for about 30 years, and knows all their secrets, and suspect Harris will play a significant role as President of the Senate, to diminish McConnell’s power.
pacem appellant
@Bluegirlfromwyo: I’m from CA and yeah, that was totally my voting plan, but not because I want to piss off wingnuts. However, pissing off wingnuts is a bonus I won’t say no to.
Martin
@jl: McDs doesn’t put mustard on burgers in NY – at least NYC and long island. NYers put their foot down on that one ages ago. You have to ask them to add it.
NYers also violently oppose the use of ketchup on hot dogs.
Ruckus
@mad citizen:
Got a notice from the VA that they are getting the vaccine and will be inoculating per need. I am assuming that’s health needs. They also didn’t give any timeframe.
Kent
@pacem appellant: When my wingnut aunts say that on Facebook I ask them “Wait…how did you figure out our secret plan? You better pray for Biden’s health because otherwise Comrade Kamala is coming for you!”
jl
@Kent: I’ve never read that Jefferson advocated throwing out New Jersey’s votes because blacks and women could vote in 1800 and it went for Adams.
So, I stand by my claim: the current GOP is more racist than the slavers among the founders.
raven
Five gotv mailings today including two postcards from California. I’m down with that and the kid who knocked on the door but STOP texting me!!!
jl
@Martin: I agree on no ketchup for hotdogs.
I might be wrong about McD’s. But they are so stingy on condiments, it’s hard to notice or remember what microscopic dabs they put on the bun.
Aleta
@jl: I didn’t like the way the chef mustarded my sandwich so I sent it back, incurring his wrath, so he double-mustarded the bread and ordered the nervous waitress to deliver it. (Correct usage?)
raven
@Ruckus:
The VHA COVID-19 Vaccination Plan that follows provides guidance on key aspects of a successful vaccination program for products that have, or will have received FDA EUA, including management of vaccination while initial supply is limited, and later when robust supply of vaccine is expected; and navigating specific storage and handling constraints.
jl
@Aleta: Only doubled? I’d have sent it back again.
BruceFromOhio
That Vox article has some solid counsel that goes beyond the transition.
BruceFromOhio
@raven: popularity has it’s downside.
pamelabrown53
@AxelFoley:
Agree. Obama was NOT naive: he reached the absolute pinnacle because his unique background/experience (growing up black in a white family) afforded him the opportunity/ability to develop an amazing degree of empathy. That and his brilliance propelled his success.
patrick Il
@Bluegirlfromwyo:
If I had to choose between Biden and Trump based on lifespan, I would vote for Biden easily.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hildebrand:
Yup, I think it was the summer of 2013, maybe ’14?, Chuck Todd heard Tweety babbling about Tip’N’Ronnie having a couple of bourbons and went on a weeks long obsession with the President having a drink with Mitch McConnell, who said early in Obama’s first term that his primary goal was to prevent Obama from having second term
And there are no weird tricks, and Biden isn’t going to blackmail Roy Blount into voting for anything cause he saw Roy going into his hotel room with a staffer on that junket back in 97. The only way to diminish Mitch McConnell’s power is win both seats in Georgia
jl
@pamelabrown53: I agree Obama was not naive. I think that Obama went in that direction for most of his first term just as much because he believed government should work that way as for any other reason.
Some may think I’m naive and non-savvy in thinking that any politician ever has sincere beliefs and and acts on them, but I do.
Chyron HR
@Edmund Dantes:
Some people might say that Obama went two full terms in office without cutting social security because he wasn’t trying to cut social security, but clearly you’re
a psychotic morontoo smart to fall for his tricks.frosty
@Steve in the ATL: I’d have sent him packing. There’s plenty of carpenters who could do the job. I have to look at that fucking flag on the house next door, and probably will until it’s just rags on a stick.
Baud
@Chyron HR: Thanks.
Chat Noir
@pacem appellant:
Yes!
Kent
He voted for the 3/5ths “Compromise” which not only took the vote from southern Black slaves, but gave it to the white slaveholders instead. That cemented his home state of VA as the country’s locus of power for the first decades of the country.
Omnes Omnibus
@tony in san diego: Oh bullshit, Obama was a black man who made it to the White House. He couldn’t afford illusions. Thinking he was naive is failing to understand what he did and how fucking unlikely it was.
catclub
@Emerald:
He got re-elected because he was never tagged with the ‘angry black man’ label.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m listening to Obama’s memoir, mostly in my car, and I would like to suggest to anyone still clinging to the belief that Obama was naive, or that “bipartisanship” was a concept he introduced to Washington, to pick up the book and read the parts about health care reform, specifically every paragraph that mentions Max Baucus.
catclub
he invited them and they did not show.
debbie
Even if he wanted to, there are no bridges for Biden to burn. Trump obliterated all bridges, bridge supports, and land masses leading to bridges.
debbie
@catclub:
Hell, Trump didn’t even offer a Big Mac to Democrats!
JPL
@Baud: She lost her seat in the state house previously, and ran for election again knowing it was a fluke that she lost. ha She lost again
She thinks that gays should be quarantined.. They are awful people. Rumor has it Tom wants to run for governor. Wonder who trump would support then. The guy he fired, or the guy he blames for losing the election.
debbie
@Steve in the ATL:
In this single instance, I like #2 a lot.
Brachiator
@Kent:
An odd way to frame this issue. Enslaved people never had the vote, nor were they ever going to have it in the South.
It is interesting that the South did the opposite of what Trump tried to do today, for similar reasons. The South wanted to count some enslaved people to increase their representation in the House, even though slaves did not have rights. Trump wanted to exclude undocumented persons from the census to decrease representation in blue states.
debbie
@Cheryl Rofer:
Honestly, I think that was the best speech he’s ever given.
Frankensteinbeck
@Bluegirlfromwyo:
I remember when Bill Clinton was elected seeing conservatives wearing black because everyone in America would be dead before the next election.
@Jeffro:
That’s a dog whistle, but it works backwards from how most people usually think. Republicans cater to racist whites and then say they’re the party of the working class, and that validates the racist whites patting themselves on the back as the only people who work hard and deserve good things.
debbie
@pacem appellant:
Or there’s this (starts at 3:30).
Mike in NC
@frosty: As I go about my daily errands I still see plenty of Trump flags flying from cars and pickups. After getting a haircut today I drove past a bunch of McMansions owned by wealthy white folks who live along the Intracoastal Waterway. Lots of Trump yard signs still displayed in lawns, too.
I suspect they’ll mostly still be there come February.
danielx
@Kent:
Like she’d waste her time trying to find those tiny articles…
Dan B
@BruceFromOhio: Good article by a great fellow Seattleite!
I love his repeated emphasis on media.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Natasha Bertrand discussing this on MSNBC right now.
Seems bad, as the kids say.
Geminid
@Kent: Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as trade representative when the Constitutional Convention was held. There is no reason to think he would not have voted for the “3/5 compromise” though.
Steve in the ATL
@frosty:
Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to find a liberal of any kind, much less a liberal tradesman, out here in middle Georgia. Back in Atlanta, I have a much better shot at it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: IT’S FINE! THIS IS NORMAL!
Matt McIrvin
@Geminid: As I recall, Jefferson was the first President definitely elected by the “slave power” that the slave states got through that 3/5 proxy representation of their non-voting slaves, and it was very much a live controversy at the time.
JPL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Seems real bad. I’m sure trump will condemn Putin soon.
Brachiator
@catclub:
Obama was flayed for not doing enough of the drinks and dinner schmoozing thing to make nice,
Yep. And then the bastards lied about it.
And Trump would deliberately exclude Democrats from events and no one said a goddamn thing about it.
jl
@Geminid: I didn’t mean to start a big deal with a snarky comment on the extreme racism of today’s GOP.
But Jefferson did write explicitly that he approved of the 3/5 compromise. I don’t remember whether it was a letter to somebody or his personal notes.
J R in WV
@Edmund Dantes:
OK, this comment is deranged. No Democrat excepting perhaps Joe Lieberman would propose cutting Social Security, let alone vote for it. If you can’t show a link to an Obama speech asking for the House and Senate to vote to cut Social Security, you get to go away for a very long time, into the pie safe.
Actually, you’re going into the pie safe right now, and will stay there until you prove to my satisfaction that Obama and Biden attempted to cut Social Security. I follow politics pretty closely, and this looks like and smells like Republican Rat Fucking of the highest degree that you have swallowed whole.
Jeeze, with “Democrats” like these no wonder we have trouble winning elections.
ETA: And if Obama/Biden HAD proposed such a thing, the Republicans would have passed it in both houses in like 20 minutes. As opposed to not going along with Obama on such a right wing issue… give me a break!!!
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
yeah
West of the Rockies
Yeah, with a Dem in office again, it’ll be non-stop wingnut whining about X, Y, and Z being “rammed down their throats.” They clearly have some deviant fantasy about that activity. Sarah P used to go on and on about the outrageous things being shoved, crammed and rammed down her throat.
Curious.
Annie
@Mai Naem mobile:
She also wrote her PhD dissertation on relations between the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, both of which had ceased to exist by the time she became Bush’s National Security Adviser.
Geminid
@JPL: trump probably will support Doug Collins (Idiot-Habersham) for Georgia governor in 2022. trump more or less invited Collins to run during the rally in Valdosta.
J R in WV
@Hildebrand:
He was flayed even though McConnell refused to attend gatherings at the White House. In what universe would a stone bigot like Turtle McConnell attend a party given by a black couple?
Not in our universe, not in our Washington DC.
Luciamia
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Uhhh, did they forget about those who had voted for Obama but went for Trump in 2016? No fraud there?
Geminid
@jl: it’s no big deal. This is more or less trivial history pursuit for me. But the discussion did remind me that Jefferson was a sponsor of the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, probably the most consequential legislation passed under the Articles of Confederation. The Ordinance prohibited slavery in the Northwest Territories. When Jefferson and Sally Hemings’ sons came of age they ended up in the Northwestern states, listed in Monticello’s records as “escaped.”
Jay
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
why yes, yes we do.
It’s nice that the “Fuck Your Feelings” Party is starting to understand what we think of them.
jl
@J R in WV: ” He was flayed even though McConnell refused to attend gatherings at the White House. ‘
A big problem is that the GOP whispered lies into the ears of the national affairs political reporters and pundits, and they mindlessly repeated it. So, a lot of people believed that Obama snubbed the GOP in petty ways, not the other way around.
Dems need to push against the constant disinformation campaigns harder.
Amir Khalid
CNN reports that Aeroflot, Russia’s national carrier, is designating seating areas in their aircraft for passengers who refuse to wear a mask. I disagree with this policy. The proper place to sit for such a passenger is outside the plane.
jl
@Geminid: I have a hobby horse about conservatives lying about the founders to make them seem 100 percent reactionary, so try to push back against it, even if sometimes tongue in cheek.
But about the current GOP being even more racist than some of the slavers among the founders, I’m less than half joking.
Edit: so, thanks for your comment, I forgot about the NW Ordinance.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Another Scott:
I saw that on Twitter, and my question was: who plays the doctor card at a lumberyard?! WTF.
Brachiator
@J R in WV:
It is weird that some supposed liberals keep spouting this Big Lie about Obama. You get it from the most deranged supposed progressives as well.
Some of it is always connected to some lame attempt to undermine Obama’s popularity. And maybe to scare older white people.
Not surprisingly, these fools seemed to have missed little things like how the Republicans now have Social Security use a different cost of living calculation designed to slow the increase in payment amounts. And this shit bypasses conversations about any real suggestions to protect Social Security.
Kent
I think the more correct way to look at the Census fuckery is that they are doing it to maintain GOP control of every state by favoring the rural white areas over the urban brown areas with immigrants. So, for example in Texas, undercounting the undocumented allows the Texas GOP to tighten their grip on power within the state legislature because it undercounts Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas. This lets them keep control of redistricting and make sure that they have more GOP congressmen even if they have less total congressmen.
Same thing in states like WI or GA. Undercounting undocumented in the big cities helps the rural white GOP maintain control of the state legislature and therefore, control over redistricting and such.
It’s not blue states vs red states, it’s rural vs urban in every state.
J R in WV
@Annie:
That’s the scientific equal of writing your dissertation on pholgiston and the etheric flow in outer space. Neither of which exists outside the writings of the alchemists of the 1500s…
trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
“Is now to be flapping arms harder!“
WaterGirl
@Amir Khalid: that’s like thinking you can swim in the non-peeing side of the pool.
Helen
@Cheryl Rofer: I follow ‘Native News Online’ and they have been promoting her as Secretary.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
Open the bombay doors, Hal.
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
I would have to resist an urge to push them out.
It just drives me crazy to see defiance about masks, etc, increasing now that the vaccine is being rolled out. Infections and serious illness is off the scale, but some people just don’t seem to care. The virus did not kill enough people, or sicken them quickly enough.
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
Is this an Indian aircraft?
//:)
And in 2001, it’s “Open the pod bay doors, please, Hal”
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: No, those things existed when she was studying them.
Ilieitz
@Kent: as far as I know Reagon moved the forest service to Interior. Don’t know if it got moved back to usda
Barry
@jl: ” I especially enjoy the Ivy League GOPers sneering at state universities, and then calling Dems elitist.”
It’s always projection with the right. It used to be a joke, but they’ve demonstrated that thousands of time.
IMHO, some of it is resentment, like that Kyle f*ckface guy at the National Review, who’ll let you know that he’s a Yalie, by gum!, but is still a writer for the National Review.
The other is what I call the ‘people who have sh*t throw it’ principle. If I’ve got a three-foot layer sh*t on me, I’ll throw a couple of handfuls on the other guy, and then claim that he’s sh*tty. The liars, haters and bothsiders (but I repeat myself) will agree.
Barry
@Kent: ” Why that terrifies them more than Biden I don’t really understand. ”
Scaaaaaaaaaary Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack Woooooooooman.
It punches their mysogyny and racism all at once.
Barry
@Citizen Alan: “If we can’t do that, I’m in favor of just selling off the grazing land the Bundys rely on to the highest bidder. I’d love to see those fuckers (I love that word now) squealing about having to actually pay market rates for grazing privileges and get sued for harassment if they try their usual schtick.”
Or deal with private security.
dww44
@AxelFoley: well, anecdotally, the GOP is becoming increasingly unhinged about the possibility that Raphael Warnock could be come a U S Senator. Today, the racist ads about the radical leftist extremist Warnock are running incessantly on my TV. There are anti Ossof ads in the same vein but not quite so loud and persistant and designed to create fear in the electorate. It is really an eye opener to witness this. January 5 is gonna be interesting.
boatboy_srq
@gene108: “Stop the Steal” is realspeak for “Thief! Baggins! We hates it forever!” coming from people too dimwitted to realize they’re Gollum.
Origuy
@Kent:
Jefferson was in France when the Constitution was approved.
boatboy_srq
@dww44: Ayuh.
Communist is the new Black.
WaterGirl
@boatboy_srq: I think black might be the new communist?
Mary Ellen Sandahl
@Ilieitz:It’s USDA now, dot-gov says so.
(Huzzah, I’ve commented on a comment that’s not 12 hours old!)