Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We know you aren’t a Democrat but since you seem confused let me help you.

The arc of the moral universe doesn’t bend itself. it’s up to us.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Wake up. Grow up. Get in the fight.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

The current Supreme Court is a rogue court. Very dangerous.

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

It’s a doggy dog world.

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Every reporter and pundit should have to declare if they ever vacationed with a billionaire.

Republicans in disarray!

If marriage is the equivalent of selling yourself into slavery, women with self respect should reject the offer.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2020 / Trump’s Georgia Phone Tape: Some Early Reactions

Trump’s Georgia Phone Tape: Some Early Reactions

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ICYMI — The Washington Post’s full transcript here.

Invoking the ‘f*ck around & find out’ clause:

Trump flunky:


Experts disagree!

Counter-argument (which I, personally, find unconvincing):

Reader Interactions

342Comments

  2. 2.

    Gin & Tonic

    Why does everyone refer to it as a “tape”? Nobody has recorded audio on tape for decades.

  4. 4.

    Ken

    Brad Heath: One wonders whether anyone who has the president’s ear also has the courage to tell him the truth: He lost.

    No, because anyone who tells him the truth is fired, so no longer has his ear. At this point all that’s left are people who parrot back his insanity and lies.

  6. 6.

    germy

    Trump goes from bullying to cajoling to threatening. At one point, he praises the lawyer Mr. Germany’s last name.

  7. 7.

    David Evans

    @Gin & Tonic: Because “tape” works as a verb: “We taped it”. What would be correct now – “We SSD’d it”, “We silicon chipped it”?

  9. 9.

    Amir Khalid

    What Trump did has to be a crime in Georgia and under Federal law as well. I have come across legal experts on YouTube arguing that it is in fact an easy case for a prosecutor.

  12. 12.

    cmorenc

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Why does everyone refer to it as a “tape”? Nobody has recorded audio on tape for decades.

    Because it’s a lot wordier to refer to it as a “digital audiovisual recording”. And most people understand that “tape” is a convenient metaphorical abbreviation and not an accurate description of whatever particular technology was used.

  15. 15.

    mali muso

    Really looking forward to a future work day in which I might actually be able to focus on my g-d job and not the shitshow that is going on.  Today is not looking like that day.

  17. 17.

    Eunicecycle

    @germy: You know he’ll make it all about him. So it will be about HIS election (that he lost), not the senators. Good for us!

  20. 20.

    AWOL

    Nothing shocked me in the tape, except that he called Ms. Abrams “Stacey” twice, as though she were an acquaintance.  I figured he’d use, “that [Black] woman,” “Abrams,” or just call her the N-word.

    I’ve checked the WP and NYT front pages. What should be 72-point headlines for this mobster’s immediate arrest are sadly quiet, “Did Trump Break the Law or Not? Views Differ.”

    The fucker broke the law and should be arrested immediately. (I know it won’t happen.)

  22. 22.

    NYCMT

    @Amir Khalid

    It is an easy case, if you confine the argument to the fact that he asked for specifically the number of votes to be added to the tally as would change the outcome of the election.

    But there are legal scholars from the safety of the ivory tower who strain at gnats like mens rea as if there were no other criminal defendant who has lied about his state of mind during the commission of a crime ever.

  23. 23.

    germy

    The thing that's painfully clear reading through the crime call transcript is Trump has fully absorbed EVERY whack job half truth and dumb theory trotted out on Newsmax and OAN to win his base. In impressive detail. Would that he paid half as much attention to security briefings.— Schooley (@Rschooley) January 4, 2021

  24. 24.

    Cameron

    Remarkable that he can roll out loads of detail when it comes to bullshit conspiracy theory, but doesn’t have a clue about anything when it comes to the pandemic.

  25. 25.

    dmsilev

    So, one obvious question is which other state officials in the other swing states has he called or will call? Most of the governors & secretaries of state in those states are Democrats, so I imagine any call would be even more threatening than this one was. Best move would be for the relevant officials to “have scheduling problems” and “are not available to take the call”.

  28. 28.

    germy

    @Cameron: Remarkable that he can roll out loads of detail when it comes to bullshit conspiracy theory, but doesn’t have a clue about anything when it comes to the pandemic.

    Well, I was impressed with his ability to flawlessly pronounce the word Hydroxychloroquine.

  29. 29.

    Geminid

    @germy: Yesterday Kelly Loeffler dodged Brent Baier’s question about whether she would join the Senate challenge to the Electoral votes. “Everything is on the table” she said, but right now she was focused on her campaign. Loeffler had better get off the fence by tonight’s rally in Dalton, because trump can ruin her chances. He never liked Kemp’s selection of Loeffler in the first place. I think Perdue is in quarantine, and won’t be on the stage. He may be glad of that.

    Establishment Republicans desperately want the two Georgia Senate seats. trump’s phone call is the kind of shit that gives people like Karl Rove heartburn.

  30. 30.

    Hildebrand

    The Trumper ( a militant Roman Catholic pro-lifer) across the street took his sign down late last night.  Perhaps we can take that as a sign that  Trump finally went too far.

  32. 32.

    ciotogist

    “Winning” Georgia won’t do jack for him, so were there similar calls to SoS in AZ and elsewhere?

  33. 33.

    Bruuuuce

    After spending four years telling people this is exactly who Trump and the GOP are, the media are finally acknowledging it. What’s the over/under on how soon their tune becomes “Trump was the exception and the rest of the Republicans are all Very Fine People”? I’ll take three days.

  34. 34.

    germy

    The WH made 18 attempts to call GA sec of state Raffensperger before Trump’s attempted shakedown over the phone Saturday, a GA state official confirms to CNN.
    — Jim Acosta (@Acosta) January 4, 2021

  35. 35.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @joel hanes:

    I’ve not seen confirmation that such a suit has been filed. It would be the most expansive, strained and weird confabulation of FRE 408 and it’s Georgia counterpart (however numbered) that anyone could imagine, and any idiot stupid enough to file it legit puts his or her license at risk.

  37. 37.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Gin & Tonic: It will go away sometime after people stop “dialing” telephone numbers.

    Sometimes the language does eventually age. My parents would often call the refrigerator the “icebox” but I don’t think anyone in my generation (boomers) ever did.

  38. 38.

    SFAW

    @dmsilev:

    Stop sounding like a broken record.

    I’ll dial him up, let him know

    ETA: Shakes fist ineffectually at Ceci n est pas mon nym

  39. 39.

    germy

    I warned you @MarkMeadows at @GOPoversight hearing that @realDonaldTrump talks in code, that I know your game plan and it will not inure to your benefit. @POTUS will throw you under the bus, as he did me, and won’t think twice about it. Hey stupid, wake up https://t.co/inqUScEhKt— Michael Cohen (@MichaelCohen212) January 4, 2021

    You had agency. You were corrupt so you went along with what you thought Trump wanted. You weren't ordered or directed. You were a willing participant. Without people like you, Trump would never have become president in the first place. It would be best if you went away forever. https://t.co/ElHTT7m9Dp— Benjamin Adams (@BenAdamsO_O) January 4, 2021

  40. 40.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @Gin & Tonic: “Tape” is probably a case of linguistic inertia (if that isn’t a term of art, it should be). After all, we still dial phone numbers even though physical telephone dials fell out of use something like thirty or forty years ago

    ETA: Three references to telephone dials in the space of a minute. Strange minds think alike?

  42. 42.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @germy: What happened on the first 17 attempts?

    ”Please listen to the following menu as menu options have changed…”

  44. 44.

    SFAW

    @MattF:

    Stephens says Trump should be impeached:

    Perhaps not the most unexpected thing I’ll read today, but I don’t know what would be. Trump resigning?

  48. 48.

    SFAW

    One of the best things about Balloon Juice is reading the pointless pedantry that sometimes crops up.

  49. 49.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Amir Khalid: 

    What Trump did is a crime in Georgia according to many legal experts that I’ve read but will Republican state officials charge him with any crime(s)? I doubt it. They’re beholden to the deranged cultist base.

  50. 50.

    Shalimar

    The really stunning part is that Raffensperger has every incentive to say yes.  You have to be loyal to your party to rise to his position.  The last Secretary of State is currently Governor of Georgia.   He has absolutely no incentive for lying if there really was fraud as Trump claims.

  52. 52.

    SFAW

    @germy:

    No idea, and not interested enough to find out, but your logic seems reasonable

    ETA: But apparently Matt McIrvin has enough free time to do it. Living in the People’s Republic and Welfare State of MA lets one do that, I guess.

  55. 55.

    Cervantes

    Language is full of fossils. That’s completely normal. Just about every word in our vocabulary had a different meaning originally. It’s ridiculous to be annoyed by it. BTW I’m a medical sociologist and my colleague and I work with audio recordings of medical and counseling encounters every day. We call them tapes because that’s what they were when we were in grad school. Record albums are still called albums even though originally that meant a binder holding 7 or 8 45 RPM bakelite discs with one song on each side. We still call movies films. Train cars are coaches, and paper is made from wood pulp, not papyrus. Pen originally meant feather. I could go on for 1,000 pages. Get used to it, that’s how language works.

  60. 60.

    Shalimar

    @Amir Khalid: The call was pretty clearly a crime under the federal statute.  Whether you could win a jury trial in Georgia against Trump is the issue.

  65. 65.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    @Shalimar:

    @Amir Khalid: The call was pretty clearly a crime under the federal statute.  Whether you could win a jury trial in Georgia against Trump is the issue.

    There’s Raffensperger’s motive to say no. He doesn’t want to be in the crosshairs of a Federal prosecutor wielding a “do not pass go, do not collect $200” card.

  66. 66.

    p.a.

    @Shalimar: I would assume that after doing the right thing at the outset and receiving death threats for it, the mind becomes focused and you think maybe “I’m not going to help these turds.”

  67. 67.

    SFAW

    @catclub:

    That was the first thing that came to mind for me. Pelosi should start impeachment proceedings.

    Jerry Nadler, maybe?

    At times like this, I wish Adam Schiff were Judiciary chair. I think he’s a lot less “cautious” than Nadler. [“Cautious” as opposed to “careful.”]

  70. 70.

    catclub

    @SFAW: Perhaps not the most unexpected thing I’ll read today, but I don’t know what would be. Trump resigning?

     

    Trump contrite, Trump apologizes.  Trump encourages mask wearing. All less likely.

  71. 71.

    Ken

    @SFAW: One of the best things about Balloon Juice is reading the pointless pedantry that sometimes crops up.

    Though in this case I’m getting an odd vibe from it; like a scaled-down version of this:

    POST: Trump just had MIchael Cohen flayed alive on the White House lawn!  There’s blood everywhere!

    REPLY 1: You can’t really say “flayed alive” since, as the tape shows, Cohen clearly died about halfway through the process.

    REPLY 2: Also the blood isn’t everywhere, in fact the patch is only a couple of feet across, with some splatters a little farther out.

    REPLY 3 [to REPLY 2]:  Is it “farther” or “further”?  I always get those confused.

  75. 75.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Ksmiami:

    “You have to take me back. This time I’ll be really good to you, but if you don’t, I’ll burn down your house with you and your family in it.”

  77. 77.

    There go two miscreants

    @p.a.: …you think maybe “I’m not going to help these turds.”

    Yeah, that has to be going through CJ Roberts’ mind these days too.

    Also too: on the “zoot suits” law, this is a real pet peeve of mine, not zoot suits but all the picayune statutes that seemingly can never be eliminated, but provide yet another opportunity for the cops to do selective enforcement. This country really needs to clean the legal house. (Not to mention the creeping felonization that’s also a problem.)

  78. 78.

    evap

    Raffensperger is just waiting for the dust to settle so he can start suppressing the vote through whatever means possible.  He has already more or less announced that he wants to get rid of “no excuse needed” absentee ballots and I bet that the purging of voter rolls (but only in certain counties) will be epic.    No doubt the GOP heavy state legislature and the Supreme Court will be happy to help him.

  79. 79.

    Betty Cracker

    I read the transcript this morning (preferable to listening since I hate that fucker’s voice). I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know what implications this has for the legality of the call, but it sure sounded to me like Trump really does believe he won. That said, the focus on “finding” just enough votes to overturn the result sounds illegal to me. 

    The shitty thing about this situation is that it all comes down to millions of lunatics’ “feelings” — including Trump’s. Nothing will ever convince them that Trump lost because boat parades or some such bullshit. I wish it were just Trump and the shitbags in his administration, but it’s tens of millions of Americans who are impervious to facts and evidence.

  80. 80.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @SFAW:

    Would be nice to have an Al Franken around at a time like this, wouldn’t it?

  85. 85.

    laura

    A gentle reminder in case anyone thinks Brad Raffensberger is any kind of a hero – he ain’t. He’s absolutely down with all manner of voter suppression – be it restricting early voting, voter caging, reducing the number of polling places or number of voting booths or machines, all of the usual republican bullshit. Sure, I’m glad that he recorded the shite-bag and released a recording, but he’s a sneaky snake who voted for trump and will be voting for Perdue and Loeffler. Just sayin’

    Or, what evap said!

  86. 86.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Sounds like Trump was stoned (again) during the phone call, along with the rest of it.

    Worth pointing out people on drugs are infamous for saying the quite parts out load.

  87. 87.

    Ken

    @Vhh: Pro tip:  If you’re on a phone call, and the only thing the other party is saying is “Go on…”, you should be careful what you say.

  90. 90.

    L85NJGT

    Some post COVID patients suffer from psychosis. IIRC it is triggered by the immune system, and can happen in cases without symptoms.

  93. 93.

    Barbara

    I love the post hoc pseudo lawyering about why it was wrong for Raffensperger to release the actual contents of a conversation but not wrong for Trump to release details about the conversation — falsified details, but still, what purported to be a description of what was said.

    The applicable FRE is 408, which prohibits the use as evidence to prove the validity or amount of a claim that is being disputed in a  proceeding between the parties, any information or documents that were shared for the purpose of settlement.  When you share information, including offers or statements of position, you get it on the record that it will be subject to this rule.  For instance, if it is a conversation, you set up the meeting with correspondence agreeing that the meeting will be subject to 408.  You don’t get to declare that something was protected after the fact.

    Of course, no one seemed to be invoking 408, or whatever the Georgia analog is, but even if they had, people are referring to this rule in a way that is inaccurate and peripheral to the matter at hand.  No one was talking about using the contents of the meeting as evidence in either of those lawsuits.  And, third, Trump leaked details of the meeting first, which abrogates whatever “agreement” had been in place to protect the confidentiality of the meeting.  And finally, having dealt with many states in various discussions, state officials are quite limited in the kinds of promises of confidentiality that they can make, and usually very cautious in making any such representation, because state open records laws are the last word on whether a record can stay private or must become public.  “We will maintain confidentiality to the extent permitted by law” is the best you can ever hope for.  And I didn’t even see anything like that here.

    Idiots, one and all.

  96. 96.

    Amir Khalid

    @SFAW:

    I’ve seen people make the distinction that farther is for comparing physical distances (e.g. “this town is farther away than that town”),  whereas further is for figurative distances (e.g. “I would call him a silly person but I wouldn’t go further than that”). But it sounds like something I may have read in Strunk & White, whose advice on such matters should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

  98. 98.

    jimmiraybob

    Can someone be extradited from Scotland…let’s say from a certain golf course that they own, to the US?  Asking or a friend.

  100. 100.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Cervantes:

    It’s ridiculous to be annoyed by it

    I get annoyed by a lot of things that most other people think are ridiculous. My mind is comforted by the fact that I am right and they are wrong.

  101. 101.

    Barbara

    @Amir Khalid: Have heard the same thing.  I would say that further can usually be substituted for “farther” in any use, but it is incorrect to use farther as a stand in for “in addition,” or, “one more thing.”

  104. 104.

    Kattails

    Also Bromwich, a bit further down the thread (12/28) “Trump dead-enders at DOD and OMB are playing a dangerous game… It wouldn’t take a particularly creative prosecutor to charge them with conspiracy to defraud the US by obstructing the orderly functions of government–i.e., the transition.”

    Might be that someone whispered in someone else’s shell-like ear that they really needed to start cooperating.  However, Trump is clearly, as I’ve been stating in my phone calls to my various reps, barking mad. Starting impeachment would effectively hobble any of the mind-numbingly stupid actions he’s no doubt contemplating.

  107. 107.

    Denali

    @Gin and Tonic,

    On word choice, I went to Marsha Blackburn’s contact site to mention to her that she was essentially saying that her own election was not valid, and found listed there her fax # rather than her email. Who uses fax anymore?

  110. 110.

    Jinchi

    The telephone conference call @GaSecofState secretly recorded was a “confidential settlement discussion” of that litigation

    I think it’s important to point out that the call was almost certainly recorded by both sides and there were a lot more than two people listening in when it happened. It reminds me of John Kelly’s outrage at finding out that Federica Wilson listening on a “sacred” call between Trump and a military widow … that he was also listening in on.

    Trump had no problem tweeting about the call immediately after it happened. His objection that it was “confidential” are absurd.

  111. 111.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Amir Khalid: Strunk & White is the kind of source that would make up a new semantic distinction just because the lexical distinction already exists and it would be a shame to let it go to waste.

  112. 112.

    jimmiraybob

    @Amir Khalid:

    By one of those amazing coincidences that almost makes me believe that there really is a Santa Clause, I recently found my old – really old and moldy – copy of Strunk and White and set it on my desk while deciding whether to keep it or pass it on.  Accordingly:

    Farther. Further. The two words are commonly interchanged, but there is a distinction worth observing: farther serves best as a distance word, further as a time or quantity word.  You chase a ball farther than the other fellow; you pursue an object further.

  114. 114.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @joel hanes:

    I’ve burnt some mendacious citers of Kentucky’s Rule 408 to cinders on several occasions when they’ve had the audacity to call upon it to justify genuinely sleazy conduct – this was no different.

  117. 117.

    Gin & Tonic

    @jimmiraybob:

    You chase a ball farther than the other fellow; you pursue an object further.

    More questions than answers. Is chasing a ball pursuing an object?

  121. 121.

    Barbara

    @Jinchi: As I noted above, this so-called rule is really a rule of evidence, unless there is some kind of non-disclosure agreement in place between the parties.  As far as I can tell, Trump had no reasonable expectation of privacy under Georgia law.  The Washington Post could have sued to get that tape and most likely would have succeeded.  That would have taken time, of course, but still, ISTM that Raffensperger is very aware of Georgia law.

  122. 122.

    Roger Moore

    @Shalimar:

    Wasn’t Trump in DC when he made the phone call?  Since this is a federal crime as well as a state one, you could probably charge him in DC.  You should probably throw in some kind of charges related to use of telecommunication services to commit a crime, which would reinforce the federal aspect.

  123. 123.

    Luciamia

    They’ve gone after Pennsylvania and Wisconsin of course. But Georgia seems to a particularly sore spot for him.

  125. 125.

    Calouste

    @jimmiraybob: Extradition would be from the UK, so handled by Boris the clown, and thus unlikely to happen. Also, I’d think that as a former President, the shitgibbon would get a diplomatic passport, so technically they would have to declare him persona non grata. So he would be safe (legally anyway) there until Scotland becomes independent. Of course, I can’t see the Scots spending a single penny on any additional police that might normally be expected in such a situation.

  126. 126.

    Ken

    @WaterGirl: An easy mark to hit, on January 4.

    Plus, it amplified the effect I was complaining about – we’re approaching more comments on “farther vs further” than on Trump’s behavior. That may be because there’s less debate about the latter.

  128. 128.

    WaterGirl

    @joel hanes: What’s really funny is that I searched for “Jack” and didn’t find it, searched for Schafer and didn’t find it, decided that maybe you were referencing something that wasn’t in the tweets up top.

    I see that it’s Shafer, not Schafer.  Now that the name is clarified, I can resoundingly agree with your assessment – he is a liar.  I also assume he’s a dirtbag because he’s pimping for Trump.

  129. 129.

    SFAW

    @Denali: 

    Who uses fax anymore?

    Doctors, pharmacies for two. Sending a prescription via e-mail is still considered by some not to be secure.

  130. 130.

    Barbara

    @joel hanes: Yeah, there’s that as well.  You can’t have a settlement discussion without all the parties in place.  Still, they could have agreed to keep the conversation private, but as I noted, state officials almost never agree to that because they don’t have the authority to override state open record laws.  I don’t think Raffensperger is a hero, but he is clearly knowledgeable about the laws in the state of Georgia.

  132. 132.

    jimmiraybob

    @Gin & Tonic: More questions than answers. Is chasing a ball pursuing an object?

    I am just pawn in game of words.  You’d have to get in touch with the authors.

  134. 134.

    dmsilev

    The hate-rally tonight is going to be quite something:

    Trump says he’ll share ‘real numbers’ during Georgia campaign speech

    Trump, who ostensibly is traveling to Georgia to bolster its two GOP Senate candidates, said in a tweet Monday that he would share “real numbers” about the presidential election during his remarks. “How can you certify an election when the numbers being certified are verifiably WRONG,” Trump said. “You will see the real numbers tonight during my speech, but especially on JANUARY 6th.”

    Congress convenes on Wednesday to certify the electoral college results, and Trump has been lobbying members to object to the totals as part of his bid to overturn the election. His tweet also took at a shot at Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.), who said Sunday that he would not join that effort, reasoning that if the GOP prevailed, it “would essentially end presidential elections and place that power in the hands of whichever party controls Congress.” “Republicans have pluses & minuses, but one thing is sure, THEY NEVER FORGET!” Trump said in words directed at Cotton.

  135. 135.

    Barbara

    @Luciamia: I think the plan was to get one state to fall and use that as leverage in the others.  Georgia had one of the smallest margins of victory, percentage wise, as well as Republican officials in charge of the election, and so I assume is seen as the softest target. I believe that he has been trying the same thing in Arizona with Ducey but for whatever reason, it hasn’t become public, most likely because there is no pending run off election, which Trump apparently thinks gives him some kind of additional leverage.  It also might be because a much higher percentage of voters use the mail, i.e., voters in both parties, and Trump was never ahead in Arizona on Election Day itself.

  137. 137.

    Ken

    @dmsilev: I figure there’s a 50/50 chance he calls for his supports to (literally, physically) attack the Republicans who are opposing him.  Maybe higher, considering he’s never hesitated to do that with any other group.

  139. 139.

    JPL

    @evap: Both the Lt Gov and SOS come across as reasonable republicans in order to get gigs on CNN or other network channels.   They think they have a future in higher offices.   hahaha     Neither one will be elected again.

  141. 141.

    Barbara

    @Ken: Chances are, he will say something like, “I can’t be responsible for what my supporters do if you refuse to do the right thing here.”  He said something very similar regarding the run off election, as in, people are very angry and they might refuse to vote.  I am so ready to move beyond being forced to live inside this real life mobster drama.

  142. 142.

    Another Scott

    @Kattails: An insanity defense would be interesting for all of his vocal supporters.  Maybe they can be rounded up with him??

    “If Donnie’s crazy, then I’m just as crazy!!11”

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  143. 143.

    SFAW

    @dmsilev:

    Not sure why I would suddenly think of this but: I am under the impression that “sedition” need not involve violence by any party so charged. I think at least one person here has opined that violent acts/actions are required, but teh google indicates that may not be so.

    And would sedition be considered a “high crime” (or “misdemeanor”)? Or would it be a case of “if the president* does it, it’s not illegal”?

     

    Asking for a country friend.

  144. 144.

    Other MJS

    Even if Georgia were overturned, Biden wins. Is this just Trump being Trump, or did I miss something?

  145. 145.

    SFAW

    @L85NJGT:

    Scanning and printing on network enabled printers is super secure.

    That’s as may be; I’m just saying that FAXes are still used for the purposes I described. The question was “who still uses them,” not “why? Don’t they know there are other secure transmission methods?”

  147. 147.

    H.E.Wolf

    @SFAW:

    @Denali:

    Who uses fax anymore?

    Doctors, pharmacies for two. Sending a prescription via e-mail is still considered by some not to be secure.

    And citizens or, I should say, anyone who wants to, for three. The online service Fax Zero [http://faxzero.com] allows 3 free faxes per day to be sent via phone/computer, to US elected officials. I used it a lot in the dark days of 2017-2018, and appreciated its simplicity of use.

  148. 148.

    Baud

    @SFAW:

    Sedition

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

    Advocating overthrow of Government

    Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

    Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

    Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

  149. 149.

    JPL

    @Other MJS: trump seemed to suggest during the call that other things were being considered.   Maybe a domino effect or who knows what the trump media is telling him.

  150. 150.

    jimmiraybob

    @Other MJS: Even if Georgia were overturned, Biden wins. Is this just Trump being Trump, or did I miss something?

    I would think that if he could be successful in one state he would extrapolate to the other states that he would need to win.  I was also just speculating that the GA GOP US Senate candidates might not be looking too good in internal polling and that Trump’s actions, especially if he can be victorious, would also set the stage to contest their loss or losses.

  153. 153.

    Abnormal Hiker

    @Gin & Tonic: I find it annoying when people use ‘dinner’ for the evening meal, unless it is the first meal of the day.   I don’t even like it being used for the midday meal. After all, it derives from Latin disjejunare which means ‘to break fast’

  156. 156.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    Thanks!

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory,

    …

    or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,

    And this section is a significant part of what I’m wondering about. Although I don’t think the “protest vote” by the Party of Traitors assholes would be considered “by force,” I can see some of his MAGAt minions doing something like that, and then it becomes whether Trump told them to do it. Good times, good times.

  160. 160.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Cervantes: Record albums are still called albums even though originally that meant a binder holding 7 or 8 45 RPM bakelite discs with one song on each side.

    Thinking about “singles” brought to mind a format during the brief era of music on cassettes that was even more briefly-lived: the “cas-single”. A cassette tape with one song on it. Or maybe two, because cassettes, like 45s, had a B side. I bought exactly one of those that I recall, Bobby McFerrin’s “Don’t Worry, Be Happy.”

    “Flip side” is another term that has stuck in the language.

  162. 162.

    Gravenstone

    @Cameron: He’s deeply invested in the results of the election so can internalize and obsess over related minutiae. He doesn’t give a flying fuck about sick people, other than wanting them kept far from himself.

  164. 164.

    JMG

    According to Steny Hoyer, the House will adjourn after the Jan. 6. votes until 1/19. This strikes me as such a bad idea as to be moronic. House should be in session to react when Trump tries to use force to seize power.

  165. 165.

    Sure Lurkalot

    The “Surrender Caucus” within the Republican Party will go down in infamy as weak and ineffective “guardians” of our Nation, who were willing to accept the certification of fraudulent presidential numbers!

    Exactly, Sir! Only the presidential numbers are fraudulent.

  167. 167.

    catclub

    @Denali: Who uses fax anymore?

    Ummm, Marsha Balackburn? My Doctor’s offices?  Pharmacies? They think fax is more secure than email.

  172. 172.

    geg6

    @Denali:

    We use it internally because a fax is more secure than email.  I deal with a lot of documents with PII (SS#s, tax forms, VA claim numbers, etc.) that has to be sent to our main campus for imaging.  We are required to use the fax to send them in because of security issues.

  173. 173.

    frosty

    @Amir Khalid:  …Strunk & White, whose advice on such matters should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

    Hmmm. Haven’t read it in awhile but I will stand (sit) in defense of Rule 3. There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words!

  174. 174.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I find it a crying shame that the immensely talented McFerrin will forever be known by that one song. He is, to use the term literally, a genius, with a multitude of recordings attesting to that fact. And he is an absolute delight if you ever get the opportunity to see him in concert (assuming we can ever go to concerts again.)

  176. 176.

    The Moar You Know

    Raffensberger said no to Trump because he knows goddamn well if he said “yes” Trump would be bragging on Twitter within five minutes about how he got the Georgia SoS to throw the election for him, and he’d be the one to go to jail.

    Raffensberger has every intent of disenfranchising every Democrat in Georgia, but he’s not willing to go to jail for it.  He knows you can do this perfectly legally if you’re not a blundering dumbshit about it.

  180. 180.

    Another Scott

    @Abnormal Hiker: My great aunt in Ohio used “dinner” for the big meal of the day, which – on the farm – was around noon.  “Supper” was the evening meal.

    “Speech was given to man to conceal his thoughts.” – Talleyrand.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  182. 182.

    Scout211

    @Denali:

    Who uses fax anymore?

    I know this was asked and answered several times upthread but I also wanted to add that when I volunteered at our county library, many folks came in to use our free computers since they had no internet in the rural areas of the county.  We also provided scan and send (for a nominal fee.) However,  when applying for new home loans or refinancing home loans or sending any documents for selling/purchasing properties, scan and send documents were not accepted.  All documents were required to be faxed, because scans were not considered secure by the loan companies or escrow companies.  They all had a tough time finding a place that still offered fax services.  Many had to drive to another county to find a place that offered a fax service.

  183. 183.

    different-church-lady

    I just want to find 11,780 votes

    “That’s not unreasonable. That’s perfectly reasonable, right? I mean, I won by millions of votes! Millions! At least 50 million votes! Just in Georgia. People love me in Georgia. But I’m not asking you to find all 50 million votes, I’m just asking you to find some of the 75 million missing votes!”

  185. 185.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I just tried to read the transcript of that phone call, and had to quit half way through because the crazy was starting to wipe my brain. I am in awe of those of you who listened to the recording.

  188. 188.

    geg6

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I would beg to differ.  Our system endures multiple attacks every day.  The University would prefer not to be sued if one of those attacks succeeds.

  192. 192.

    mrmoshpotato

    “I am big! It’s the vote totals that got small!”

    Mig was hit with a stroke of genius.  That’s so good.

  193. 193.

    cain

    @Ken:

    I”m like.. so what? Why the fuck would I want a job like that anyways? What lever of power do you think you can actually pull? It’s just ridiculous.

  197. 197.

    germy

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Thread from someone who knows him:

    I would just like to remind everybody about the time that Julian Assange called me “worse than a Jew”. May justice for his actions come today. May journalism not be harmed further in the process. He is a racist, a rapist, and a crime operative who harmed America for money.— Xeni Jardin (@xeni) January 3, 2021

  201. 201.

    West of the Rockies

    Not sure why you guys are all freaking out… Trump has Ivanka and Jared to modulate and guide him.  Easy-peazy!

  203. 203.

    moonbat

    @Baud: The first definition there is for conspiring to do so. It does not stipulate that the force has to be actually exerted. The following points do, but the first one does not. Conspiracy to commit a crime is still a crime. Or did I miss something?

    Just like talking about shooting the president will get you a visit from the SS. You don’t have to wait until someone pulls the trigger.

    And if that letter the former DOD officials put out yesterday isn’t an indication that the force is definitely being considered, then I don’t know how close we want to get with nitpicking the law before someone calls him on this.

  206. 206.

    patroclus

    The transcript is actually hilarious.  Trump goes on and on and on and on and on about his qanon/4chan theories and “Brad” and “Ryan”  – in just one short sentence or so – say “that’s not accurate” and “we’ve looked into it.”  The so-called “smoking gun” video with the suitcases shows nothing wrong, the total amount of dead people votes was 2, the ballots weren’t counted three times; just once, the recounts and audits showed no significant changes; the GBI looked into all the claims and they were all baseless; the courts have examined all the claims and they are all baseless etc…  Trump doesn’t buy it and Meadows keeps enabling him throughout; except on Dominion where they are apparently afraid of a multi-billion dollar lawsuit.  I highly recommend everyone reading it!

    It’s only 16 more days, so while I would normally favor another impeachment and certainly a criminal investigation, I think exposure and mockery is probably the best course of action at this time.  He is really flailing; in a very embarrassing way.  History will not be kind…

  207. 207.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Luciamia: Maybe because PA and WI were recently blue, but GA has been red (for all the “right” reasons) for a long time –losing it is REALLY a loss in this orange idiot’s peabrain.

  208. 208.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @patroclus: History will not be kind…

    To Rafael, Louie, and the rest of the seditious lot who have taken massive shits on their oaths of office in the name of Donald.

  209. 209.

    citizen dave (aka mad citizen)

    This whole thing is really crazy.  In my fantasy world Congress does a rocket docket and impeaches and convicts the bastard, which means the Pence administration lasts a few days.

    18 attempted calls to the GA SOS: That’s about how many I get in a month from the “Your car warranty is about to run out” people.  I’m sure they will start up again soon.  The fact that we haven’t solved telemarketing by the death penalty is a failure of our society.  (using a landline for hours of work calls every day)

  212. 212.

    Barbara

    @geg6: Fax really shouldn’t be more secure than email at this point because most systems have been upgraded to ensure a sufficient level of security for data “in motion.”  For data “at rest,” the trade off between a fax and an email is that it’s harder to forward a fax, whereas an email can be forwarded to whoever, whenever, but I can’t tell you the number of data breaches I have had to address that occurred because someone misdirected a fax.  In one case, someone had an incorrect recipient that somehow ended up being forwarded to that recipient’s 13,000 consumer contacts.  You can misdirect an email too, but for whatever reason, that doesn’t seem to be as common. And of course, many fax applications have been configured to just be forwarded to a recipient’s email address — from which it can be forwarded just as easily as an email.

  213. 213.

    patrick II

    @Scout211:

    I have used free  (or for higher quantity, inexpensive) web site fax services.  Just type in your cover sheet and phone number, copy in your document(s), and send away.  It seems somewhat safer than email. If that seems sufficiently secure someone might save a trip.

  214. 214.

    david

    Erica Werner@ericawerner
    “We’re not looking backwards we’re looking forward” Jeffries says when asked whether the House should impeach Trump over Ga phone call

  215. 215.

    Jeffro

    @Amir Khalid:I’ve seen people make the distinction that farther is for comparing physical distances (e.g. “this town is farther away than that town”),  whereas further is for figurative distances (e.g. “I would call him a silly person but I wouldn’t go further than that”).

    I like it!  I’m going with that distinction from here on out.

  217. 217.

    Barbara

    @david: Okay, I saw this, and turned off twitter when I saw all kinds of hysterical reactions.  Maybe this wasn’t the best reply to the question but excuse me for thinking that people are entitled to think for more than two minutes about something as serious as this before committing to an action.

  218. 218.

    JanieM

    @frosty:

    Hmmm. Haven’t read it in awhile but I will stand (sit) in defense of Rule 3. There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less fewer than three words!

    Eschew verbosity!    ;-)

  219. 219.

    Jeffro

    @frosty:There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words!

    “Delete bullshit?”

    ETA: LOL @Janie M

  220. 220.

    moonbat

    @patroclus: I’m not interested in the historical view of this. Reading “The Rise and Fall of the American Republic” will be small satisfaction if we allow a Trump or the next aspiring autocrat (Cruz, Hawley, Cotton) to get away with undermining our elections. This stuff needs to be stopped in its tracks as it is happening. If Trump thinks he can reverse an election in the next 16 days he needs to be told in the next 16 days he cannot — forcefully.

  221. 221.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Jeffro: “Eschew obfuscation” is I believe the classic phrasing. Edit: Janie M got there first.

    Eschew sesquipedalianism would work too.

  222. 222.

    Brachiator

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I just tried to read the transcript of that phone call, and had to quit half way through because the crazy was starting to wipe my brain. I am in awe of those of you who listened to the recording.

    I listened to it to get a sense of Trump’s emotions and attitudes, and the reactions of the Georgia officials. It’s like listening to the Nixon or LBJ tapes.

    You get the full impact of the desperation, the crazy.

  224. 224.

    cain

    @Hildebrand:

    The Trumpers on the next street over has escalated – they never had an outward sign, but they had friends who would visit would fly the Trump 2020 and blue line flags on their big trucks. This past week they’ve installed a fresh “blue line flag”

    So some are going to circle the drain with him to the end. Some others might realize how they look to other people hey interact with and have some amount of shame.

  225. 225.

    different-church-lady

    @patroclus:

    The so-called “smoking gun” video with the suitcases shows nothing wrong, the total amount of dead people votes was 2… (etc, etc…)

    I’m telling ya, fellas, you’re gonna want that cowbell in there!

  226. 226.

    Chyron HR

    @david:

    It’s not just that impeachment without conviction is a purely symbolic vote, it’s that the symbolism is Trump getting exonerated.

  229. 229.

    david

    Erik Wasson@elwasson

    HOUSE schedule :
    @LeaderHoyer told Dems House will depart DC after Jan 6 and return Jan 19 per lawmaker on call

  230. 230.

    Brachiator

    @moonbat:

    If Trump thinks he can reverse an election in the next 16 days he needs to be told in the next 16 days he cannot — forcefully.

    The United States is in a strange place. Some in the GOP are rushing to Trump’s defense. Their stance seems to be that you never admit wrongdoing, and back your people at all costs. They may be closet autocrats stepping out into the open.

  233. 233.

    geg6

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Not according to our IT people, the VA’s IT people or the US DoE’s people.  And since it’s not a big deal for almost any student or parent I deal with, I don’t see why you think it’s so ridiculous.  It’s a fact that a landline is vastly superior for security than anything online.

    ETA: Many students and their families do not have easy access to scan and download required documents to us, which is the other option they can use for financial aid docs (definitely not VA docs, though).  They can go to any Staples and fax the documents securely, however.

  234. 234.

    patroclus

    @moonbat: He has been told that repeatedly by our judicial system for the past two months.  Congress gets its chance on Wednesday and, even if it takes 2 hours per state to debate it,  will do so as well.  The military has been telling him that and all former DoD Secretaries did so last night.  If it is necessary, I want the Justice Department to do it too (Barr sort of already did by quitting).

  236. 236.

    Brachiator

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    Maybe because PA and WI were recently blue, but GA has been red (for all the “right” reasons) for a long time –losing it is REALLY a loss in this orange idiot’s peabrain.

    Yep. Also, Georgia has done voter suppression and maybe Trump thinks that officials there are up for anything.

    But things may be changing. Georgia, like Texas and a few other states, has seen more people moving there because of work and other reasons. Some pundits assume that the people who move into the state are conservative, but this is not the always the case.

  237. 237.

    Anya

    Chris Krebs should hide in shame. He failed at his job. During his time the USA suffered the most elaborate and extensive hacking. If Trump had the slightest interest in American cyber security he would have challenged that guy’s credibility but we know he’ll never even acknowledge the hacking took place.

  238. 238.

    different-church-lady

    @geg6: I said the other night: part of all of this is “pushing normal” to new extremes. A guy like Ted Cruz doesn’t think he can overturn this election, but he knows he can use it to figure out where the fault lines are and where the buttons are located on the mob. Get them believing this election was stolen and you can get more and more people to join them in thinking the next one is stolen too.

  239. 239.

    cain

    @dmsilev:

    How would he know? He doesn’t have access to the ballot boxes. None of his people do. Crazy fuck. It’s just all second and third hand stories from unverified people.

    His people are fools – but they are stone cold racists and misogynists – so anything to maintain the power vacuum.

  240. 240.

    geg6

    @Barbara:

    Too many here are assuming that all students and their parents have the technology or the know how to do these things.  If a student isn’t able to scan a document (such as a tax form or transcript or a birth certificate or a VA Certificate of Eligibility) and download it into our system, they are going to work or a Staples or similar place.  They aren’t faxing from their computers, assuming they actually own a computer and aren’t one of the dozens of students at my campus of 600 students who are using computers borrowed from the University in order to attend class.  Hell, I don’t own a scanner myself.  In fact, I just bought a cheap printer when we went into lockdown.

  241. 241.

    Brachiator

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’ve seen people make the distinction that farther is for comparing physical distances (e.g. “this town is farther away than that town”),  whereas further is for figurative distances (e.g. “I would call him a silly person but I wouldn’t go further than that”).

    Yep. That’s what I remember.

    And yet, a unit of distance is the furlong, not the farlong.

  242. 242.

    moonbat

    @patroclus: Yes, and look at all the effect it’s had on his actions. He is still abusing his office and his oath by trying to use his power as president to undermine the next government. Articles of impeachment, even if they cannot be tried, need to be brought.

  245. 245.

    different-church-lady

    Look folks, if you really want maximum information security, then just don’t tell anyone anything.

  246. 246.

    Brachiator

    @different-church-lady:

    A guy like Ted Cruz doesn’t think he can overturn this election, but he knows he can use it to figure out where the fault lines are and where the buttons are located on the mob. Get them believing this election was stolen and you can get more and more people to join them in thinking the next one is stolen too.

    The crazy thing is that the Republicans crying crocodile tears abut stolen elections are hatching plans to steal future elections.

    This is another page from Trump’s playbook. The Orange Loser was moaning that the election might be stolen even as he was using the postal service to screw with ballots.

  247. 247.

    different-church-lady

    @Brachiator:

    ZEPPO: This will go no further, Father!

    GROUCHO: “This will go no further, Father?” That can’t be right… you must mean, “This will go no farther, Further!”

  249. 249.

    Anya

    @Betty Cracker: Oh, Betty, you should listen to it. The transcript doesn’t give you the full crazy, mendacity and the shamelessness. But I do understand not wanting to listen to Trump’s horridness.

  252. 252.

    marklar

    @frosty: “There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words!”

     

    My response (already noted by JanieM, and also noted by someone else): “Eschew obfuscation.”

     

    I’m too slow for you jackals.

  253. 253.

    patroclus

    @moonbat: I disagree.  I think the House should be more focused on quickly passing all those bills that it passed last Congress that the Senate ignored, including, the John Lewis Act, D.C. statehood, another much larger COVID bill, including state and local funding and more resources for vaccine deployment, a minimum wage increase as well as comprehensive immigration reform, expanding Medicare and lots more.  Impeaching an outgoing delusional President, in my view, would be a waste of time.  We need to focus on our issues.

  254. 254.

    cain

    haha – Cenk is trending on Twitter – apparently it’s a full on war between Cenk and Jimmy Dore + rose twitter. So sad.

    Watching them go on on about M4U is just excruciating – they have made it their avante garde legislation and all those not part of it are assholes or worse Democrats. They keep trying to do power plays, but only end up revealing how out of touch and incompetent – but they continue their grift through malevolence, bad faith, and lies.

    Just in case, people got confused, I’m talking about dead ender rose twitter.

  256. 256.

    sdhays

    Can we not call Raffensperger a “hero for democracy”? He’s absolutely on board with the standard Republican voter suppression tactics, he just isn’t willing to attempt a cartoonishly illegal criminal conspiracy of dubious benefit.

    Doing the bare minimum of his fucking job and defending his handling of the job is an insultingly low standard for “hero”.

  257. 257.

    moonbat

    @patroclus: Then we disagree. I think the president poses a clear and present danger to the incoming government. All of those other issues, worthy issues, definitely in need of time and attention — will go unaddressed if we hobble the Biden administration by allowing this sedition to go unanswered. That is what Cruz’s whole sideshow is about, de-legitimizing the Biden administration. And if he is successful at that, try getting anything passed or improved in this country.

  259. 259.

    Gin & Tonic

    @geg6: For Jane Q Randomstudent sending to you, OK. But you indicated that you fax all those to your central office for imaging/storage. That’s the part that shows ignorance or incompetence on the part of your systems folks, IMO.

    I also deal with a lot of PII in work-related documents, so I’m not just talking out of my hat.

  261. 261.

    mrmoshpotato

    @cain:

    haha – Cenk is trending on Twitter – apparently it’s a full on war between Cenk and Jimmy Dore + rose twitter. So sad. 

    LOL I don’t care about the details, but will happily root for injuries.

  262. 262.

    patroclus

    @moonbat: They are being answered – by the judicial branch, the legislative branch, the media, the military, the former military leaders and the citizenry.  Just not by an utterly waste-of-time duplicative meaningless impeachment like you advocate.  The other issues are more important – we are losing a 9/11 Pearl Harbor equivalent amount of lives every single day and have been for weeks and months.  Yet another impeachment will not address our real problems.  Pelosi and Hoyer aren’t going to do it – it’s not happening.  We should move on.

  263. 263.

    Gary K

    Strong Sunset Boulevard energy to Trump right now

    Yes, it’s true, but have you seen the end of “White Heat”?

  264. 264.

    NotMax

    @frosty

    There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words!

    Avoid ornamentation.

    Be concise.

    That’s two ways, right there.

    ;)

  265. 265.

    Anya

    @cain: I bet these people were not obsessed with M4A when in 2003, Rep. John Conyers introduced the Expanded and Improved Medicare For All Act. That’s when “Medicare-for-all” finally arrived in Congress. And all these years when Conyers and others in Congress were making proposals. All of a sudden it’s the one thing that some progressives judge people on. You could do anything but as long as you support burning everything down in order to attempt to get M4A you are a hero. It’s as nihilistic and fanatical as righwingers destroying our democracy for Trump.

    P.S. I am fully aware of Conyers disgraceful end.

  266. 266.

    Anya

    @sdhays: He is terrible on all issues but I think he displayed courage in fighting Trump’s blatant illegal attempt to overturn the election. In this environment, it’s important to acknowledge those on the side of not fully turning us into Russia.

  270. 270.

    JanieM

    I do wonder if Frosty wasn’t having us on….

    As in: you can’t write three words in fewer than three words.

    Dangle a hook, someone will bite it!

  271. 271.

    citizen dave (aka mad citizen)

    @Brachiator: Not to mention that trump was talking about the election being rigged in 2016, before he “won”.  A lot of him is just throwing all shit all the time.  He’s on all sides of all issues, depending on whatever his lizard brain might tell him in the moment.  But this GA thing is clearly a crime, and for what?  I kept thinking, so he overturns GA, what then?  It’s so weird.

    His rally is going to be lit, as some kids or hipsters said at some point, I think.

  273. 273.

    smedley the uncertain

    @SFAW: In NY, FAX between DMV and Insurance companies is still a thing.  Just had to do it last week.  DMV process was a surprise:

    Dropped plates to be cancelled in drop box on Weds 23 Dec  and received Notification of cancellation on 26 Dec.  They Faxed notice to Insurance Co on 24 Dec. Received NY Check for remainder of registration fee the following week.

  275. 275.

    sdhays

    @Anya: I’m not suggesting that he doesn’t deserve some praise, but I think that “hero” is ridiculous. He’s not willing to break the law for the President – good! Gold star! But that’s, you know, the barest minimum of what’s expected for his, or any, job.

  276. 276.

    Kent

    @geg6:Too many here are assuming that all students and their parents have the technology or the know how to do these things.  If a student isn’t able to scan a document (such as a tax form or transcript or a birth certificate or a VA Certificate of Eligibility) and download it into our system, they are going to work or a Staples or similar place.  They aren’t faxing from their computers, assuming they actually own a computer and aren’t one of the dozens of students at my campus of 600 students who are using computers borrowed from the University in order to attend class.  Hell, I don’t own a scanner myself.  In fact, I just bought a cheap printer when we went into lockdown.

    I’m kind of late to this conversation, but my kids are submitting scanned documents to their teachers on a daily basis as part of digital learning in the covid age.  Mostly they just use their cell phones to photograph the worksheet and turn it in using the Google Classroom phone app. But sometimes they use the Brother multi-function laser printer that we have to scan it properly.

    But any kid with a cell phone or school-issued chromebook or iPad knows how to submit documents online.  They do it all day long for school.

  277. 277.

    jonas

    @Brachiator:The Orange Loser was moaning that the election might be stolen even as he was using the postal service to screw with ballots.

    That’s essentially what he’s so obsessed about: he was planning to steal the election fair and square, and then Biden somehow out-foxed him. It’s unpossible!

  278. 278.

    cain

    @Anya:

    Purity politics is what’s going to get them sidelined. The squad knows that – working in legislation is so much more than  single minded drive for M4U which not everyone is onboard with. Our system works by communicating with each other.

    Unless of course you are GOP – they take a path that is darker, and ultimately self defeating.

  281. 281.

    Brachiator

    @patroclus:

    They are being answered – by the judicial branch, the legislative branch, the media, the military, the former military leaders and the citizenry.

    In some ways, the fact that the military and former Defense secretaries have had to emphasize various points about the transition, is extraordinary. These are not normal times.

    Just not by an utterly waste-of-time duplicative meaningless impeachment like you advocate. The other issues are more important

    Unfortunately, not much can be done until January 20. And Trump seems to be committed to mischief between now and then.

    I agree with you that impeachment would be a waste of time, but only because the GOP leaders are cowards.  They should have taken Trump aside and told him to shut up or resign. Short of that, it would have been wise if the Congress had unanimously impeached, convicted and removed Trump.

    The House acting alone would be futile.

    But that Trump is being allowed to continue his infantile rampage is not good for the country.

  283. 283.

    Jinchi

    @sdhays: Can we not call Raffensperger a “hero for democracy”?

    Raffensberger isn’t a hero, but he’s an exception among Republicans. It’s pretty clear that he isn’t the only official who has been getting calls directly from Trump.

    Trump called up the Republican chairwoman of Wayne County Board of Canvassers (the one who wanted to certify all the votes except for Detroit’s), so no official is too small to get his attention. Where are the transcripts of his conversations with Governors Kemp and Ducey or the Republican legislators of Pennsylvania and Michigan?

    This tape is just the tip of the iceberg. We wouldn’t have it if he hadn’t released it.

  284. 284.

    Ken

    @Punchy: A day before the run-offs, he’s hosting a presser?

    “Spurred by the President’s call to ‘find the votes’, we carefully searched and found that 75,000 ballots had, indeed, not been properly tallied. These were, however, all for Joseph Biden, so President Trump has now lost Georgia for – what is this, the sixth? seventh? – time, by an even greater margin.

    “Also, these ballots were largely for Warnock and Ossoff, and sufficient to bring their counts above the margin requiring a runoff. I am therefore cancelling tomorrow’s special election and certifying the two Democrats as winners of the Georgia races for U.S. Senate.”

    (But we don’t live in that nice a universe.  “After consultation with lawyers, we are filing state charges against Mr. Trump” is probably also too much to ask for.)

  285. 285.

    Steve in the ATL

    @SFAW:

     

    One of the best things about Balloon Juice is reading the pointless pedantry that sometimes crops up.

    OMG I am going to literally explode if this keeps up

  286. 286.

    Barbara

    @geg6: Understood.  I think an educational organization should be open to multiple ways of handling information for the sake of accessibility to all students, but that is a different issue from security.

  287. 287.

    Geminid

    @citizen dave (aka mad citizen): That Dalton rally is also going to be cool: 46° at 9pm, the starting time. 43° by 11pm. 10% chance of rain. 9pm is kind of late to start. Maybe they figure on a lot of people driving up from Atlanta after work. Maybe they are just dumbasses.

  289. 289.

    J R in WV

    @frosty:

    There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words!

    Be Succinct!  So there!

    . . . .  .  .   .   .    .              ;~)

  290. 290.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Ahem-

    “Devin Nunes’ courageous actions helped thwart a plot to take down a sitting United States president. Devin’s efforts led to the firing, demotion, or resignation of over a dozen FBI and DOJ employees.”

  291. 291.

    moonbat

    @patroclus: Either the laws of this nation mean something or they don’t. “Trump will go away soon so we should ignore his antics” is a laws don’t matter under certain circumstances attitude and it is precisely why the rich and powerful in this nation continue to dance on the rule of law that would get your average peon 10-20 years in jail. I am fully aware that Pelosi and Hoyer are not going to do this and it’s a calculated risk: Ignore Trump and he will eventually go away.

    But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t.

    As I said, we disagree. I’m okay with that. Reiterating your same points doesn’t make them any more convincing the second time round.

  292. 292.

    Barbara

    @moonbat: Since he is at the end of his term, I do think that Ted Lieu’s response of making a referral to the FBI is more appropriate than a second round of impeachment.  Congress is constructed to address and hopefully solve primarily political problems.  The FBI and DOJ are constructed to address violations of criminal law.

  295. 295.

    moonbat

    @Barbara: I would argue that it is both a political and a criminal issue since this interferes with the installation of a new government. But I see where you’re coming from. And I applaud Rep. Lieu’s referral to the FBI.

  296. 296.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @Geminid: are the organizers going to bus people to the rally site and then leave them there again ?(can’t remember which other rallies Trump org did that at)

  297. 297.

    Punchy

    @Kelly: I’m leaning towards…..after Trump’s call to the SOS, upon getting no favors from him, his next call was to this AG and demanding he immediately indict (or announce the investigation of) the GA SOS and his lawyer.

    It’s all revenge, all the time with this mobpile shitster.

  299. 299.

    SiubhanDuinne

    The Nimitz is apparently now heading back to the Persian Gulf, only days after leaving. Anybody even want to venture a guess about that?

  300. 300.

    Jim Appleton

    @Barbara:

    Yes.

    Impeachment is still a possibility even after he leaves (!) office, which would forbid future federal employment.

  301. 301.

    citizen dave (aka mad citizen)

    @Geminid: “Maybe they are just dumbasses.”  I vote Yes on that.

    I wonder why it’s so late.  Late for a 74 year old man possibly with dementia; and late for his sycophants, and late to tell people to go out an vote the next day for the stooges.  I mostly don’t want to know details but assume it’s another airport rally where he only walks 200-300 feet.  I will probably check some of it out, though.  YouTube recommends Right Side Broadcasting to me when these things happen

    But maybe even better will be the 3 p.m. GA SOS presser–BJ needs a link for that.

  303. 303.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @moonbat:

    I am fully aware that Pelosi and Hoyer are not going to do this and it’s a calculated risk

    leaving aside the notion that “Pelosi and Hoyer” have the kind of iron-fist power over the Dem caucus this implies, what if they impeached trump and the majority of the country either opposed it or didn’t really care? You know, like happened last time they impeached him.
    The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our Senators, or Representatives, but in our (collective) selves

  304. 304.

    Barbara

    @moonbat: I agree that it is a political problem, but I keep coming back to the essential, almost irresolvable conundrum: what do you do when a major political party stops acting in good faith?  These allegations of voter fraud are based on nothing.  They are just making them up whole cloth, acting as if they are valid and serious and then using them as a justification for trying to engage in flagrant election fraud in their own favor.

    To me, this is an issue that people need to think long and hard about in terms of developing voter protections, addressing the use of social media to spread disinformation and so on.  It’s almost too easy to point fingers at individuals, even individuals as evil as Trump and his enablers.  In many cases, this is what government does to avoid addressing the real problems.  This is what happened when the Bush administration went after Enron and Arthur Anderson but ignored the underlying systemic issues that allowed fraudulent schemes to thrive, which were wildly inappropriate accounting policies and the ease with which rating agencies can be pressured to give good ratings. All of which led to the much deeper meltdown seven years later.

  305. 305.

    Alison Rose

    @SFAW:

    One of the best things about Balloon Juice is reading the pointless pedantry that sometimes crops up.

     

    “Pointless pedantry” nominated for rotating tagline

  308. 308.

    trollhattan

    @sdhays:

    Shove enough rats together and they eventually turn on one another, including cannibalism. This is no more complicated then that. I trust Georgia Republicans as far as I could fling them.

  309. 309.

    Chris T.

    @Gin & Tonic: Is “recorded” inappropriate for some reason?

    No, it just sounds overly formal. It’s like calling someone a “person who engages in penile contact with his maternal vagina”.

  310. 310.

    Spinoza Is My Co-pilot

    Whoever the fuck Gerry Doyle is (I don’t fucking care) his “this isn’t a one party vs another party thing” is, of course, complete bullshit. That’s exactly what it is, no matter that some fascists aren’t all-in on this particular attempt at election ratfuckery.

  311. 311.

    Bill Arnold

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Anybody even want to venture a guess about that?

    A guess?
    The landscape includes Israel and Saudi Arabia on the phone with Trump trying to talk him into a massive air strike on Iran’s nuclear-related facilities before he leaves office. (“Onward Christian Soldiers”)
    The landscape also includes that some parties in the Iranian government have stated that the killers of Soleimani will face justice. I’m not a student of Iranian culture but that sounds in part religious, that evil always faces justice eventually, and mixed in part with a unspecific threat that physical revenge will always be on the table.
    Then there is Trump desperately scrambling to keep hold of power and wondering, “mind” fed by advisors (and ISR/KSA) lying into his ears, if a war with Iran would help him (no, his presidency ends Jan 20).
    Then there are Iranian warnings that they’ve picked up hints of Israeli planning of false flag operations.
    And Pompeo is an end-times guy, religiously.
    Etc. Scary, to be honest, and no doubts some scariness is intentional. The US military needs to hold the line.
    Iran says killers of top general Soleimani, including Trump, ‘not safe on Earth’ – Meanwhile successor to assassinated Quds force chief threatens ‘severe revenge’ — which may come from within the United States (1 January 2021)

    TEHRAN, Iran — Iran’s judiciary chief warned Friday that Qassem Soleimani’s killers will “not be safe on Earth,” as the Islamic Republic began marking the first anniversary of the top general’s assassination in a US strike.
    Ebrahim Raisi, speaking at an event in Tehran to pay tribute to Soleimani, said not even US President Donald Trump, who ordered the strike, was “immune from justice.”

    Since that can be read as “in the fullness of time”, but Trump is a coward, he’s wondering whether he’ll have to live the rest of his life worrying about assassination. He needs to worry a bit more about how Americans+2ndAmendment would react to a autocoup that actually started succeeding.

  312. 312.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Barbara:

     

    You can misdirect an email too, but for whatever reason, that doesn’t seem to be as common.

    Seriously? You must email only your Yale classmates. I constantly see emails where someone types the first letter of an email address into Outlook then send the email to the wrong person who also has that same first letter. Hell, I get emails that are meant for our CEO (should I trade our stock based on what I read? I’ll ask Loeffler and Perdue if that’s ok!).

    I also get loads of emails at my correct address from other people with my last name and the first initial “s”. Sorry, Stacey, Sally, et al, s[our last name]@gmail.com is mine, not yours. But thanks for signing me up for 2ndVote (rwnj group) and Shithole, NC school bus alerts!

  313. 313.

    Barbara

    @Steve in the ATL: I am just speaking specifically of the situations where I have been called to deal with the misdirection of confidential health care information.  I too think it’s kind of funny that I have had all kinds of fax situations but no email situations.  Most likely it is due to the fact that people in health care don’t email a lot of information around.

  314. 314.

    Chyron HR

    @moonbat:

    Either the laws of this nation mean something or they don’t.

    They patently don’t and haven’t in your lifetime.  Sorry, but it’s not “Piglosi”‘s fault for making you aware of it.

  315. 315.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Barbara:

    makes sense then, cuz lawyers sure like to email the wrong people!  Your documents technically remain confidential and privileged, but we can’t un-learn what you sent us!

  316. 316.

    J R in WV

    @Anya:

    Chris Krebs should hide in shame. He failed at his job.

    I disagree. He was not expected to be a solo practitioner, he was supposed to lead a team across the entire federal government and all it’s IT systems.

    How much support do you expect he had in that gargantuan task? Zero, or a tiny dash more than that? If anything, he was set up to fail when Putin called for the penetration to occur. I hope he has some kind of career in spite of falling afoul of Trump’s machine.

  317. 317.

    Kent

    @Anya:Chris Krebs should hide in shame. He failed at his job. During his time the USA suffered the most elaborate and extensive hacking. If Trump had the slightest interest in American cyber security he would have challenged that guy’s credibility but we know he’ll never even acknowledge the hacking took place.

    If Trump was even slightly interested in defending this country’s national security he would have taken the billions he has illegally diverted to build his “wall” and devoted it to cybersecurity instead.  One person cannot possibly do that across the hundreds of government agencies and tens of thousands of computer systems within the Federal government.

  318. 318.

    Barbara

    @Steve in the ATL: We all have stories that make us cringe.  My personal favorite is when my autocomplete mailed a conference call appointment to a lawyer I had worked with previously, who had the exact same name as one I was working with currently.  There was no information other than the time and details for the call.  The guy who received it called me in a panic because he thought he had completely missed something he was supposed to be working on.  Boy did I feel stupid, but it was kind of funny, this guy getting a random request for a meeting and thinking that he was in deep doodoo.

  319. 319.

    Dopey-o

    @frosty:

    Hmmm. Haven’t read it in awhile but I will stand (sit) in defense of Rule 3. There is no way of writing: “Omit needless words.” in less than three words.

    Eschew obfustication.

    And we refer to recordings of criminal conversatioms as “tapes” because of the Nixon precedent, which was refreshed in the public consciousness when James Comey said, “Lordy, I hope there are tapes!” in response to the president’s threats against him.

    With Trump, it’s either Putin or Nixon.

  320. 320.

    Brachiator

    @Bill Arnold:

    Then there is Trump desperately scrambling to keep hold of power and wondering, “mind” fed by advisors (and ISR/KSA) lying into his ears, if a war with Iran would help him (no, his presidency ends Jan 20).

    This is the problem. Trump cannot legally hold onto power. Period. He is being childishly stubborn.

    Trump has consistently tried to bend the presidency to his own ego.  He simply does not understand that the office is bigger than him.

    Someone in the GOP leadership needs to sit him down and explain it.  But they are cynical fools.

  322. 322.

    J R in WV

    @Steve in the ATL:

    January 4, 2021 at 1:15 pm

    @SFAW:

     

    One of the best things about Balloon Juice is reading the pointless pedantry that sometimes crops up.

    OMG I am going to literally explode if this keeps up

    No one will believe that you explode without film or video. Film would be better, harder to fake film! Or am I wrong about the meaning of literally?

    Glad to see you playing the game!!

  323. 323.

    burnspbesq

    @Barbara:

    ‘The Georgia statute is substantially similar to Rule 408. I especially like subsection (c):

    This Code section shall not require the exclusion of any evidence otherwise discoverable merely because it is presented in the course of compromise negotiations or mediation. This Code section shall not require exclusion of evidence offered for another purpose, including, but not limited to, proving bias or prejudice of a witness, negating a contention of undue delay or abuse of process, or proving an effort to obstruct a criminal investigation or prosecution.

  326. 326.

    frosty

    @NotMax: Nice try but “ornamentation” doesn’t speak well enough to writing. “Be concise” is better, although I think it loses the meaning that there are needless words.

    I knew I’d get called on this!

    ETA: “Eschew obfuscation” is just wrong. Omit needless letters too! //

  328. 328.

    tokyokie

    @Wumpus: As a former headline-writing copy editor, I can tell you that “tape” counts 3 1/2, whereas “recording” counts 8 1/2. The shorter term is not accurate, but it’s easier to cram into a headline.

  329. 329.

    geg6

    @Kent:

    I don’t find students who do this.  And I’m guessing it’s because they can upload all their assignments through our classroom management system, which is not in any way attached to our student aid business system.  If a student sends me docs via their phones, it’s always a photo which is not something that uploads or prints out properly for imaging.

  332. 332.

    Jinchi

    Listening to the recording I think it’s funny that one of Trump’s first objections is that “thousands of voters” were turned away at the polls because a ballot had already been received in their name.

    Trump, of course, famously asked his base to vote absentee and then go in person on election day to “check” whether their ballot had been counted.

  333. 333.

    Amir Khalid

    @frosty:

    After “Omit needless words”, Strunk & White goes on for a whole, arguably redundant pararaph on why you should omit needless words: whereas those irreducible and succinct first three words were enough to make the point.

  334. 334.

    Miss Bianca

    @Ken: Reply 2 to Reply 1: “also, technically, “flayed” means ‘removing the skin while alive’ so ‘flayed alive’ is redundant.”

    Reply 3 to Reply 2: “That’s a good point!”

  336. 336.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Here’s what will happen: a little hand-wringing. AOC nailed this one, FWIW. Impeachment articles in the House should have already been drawn up. Everyone keeps acting like this is a Trump thing and when Trump is gone, the problem is gone. Not so.

  337. 337.

    Chris Johnson

    Omit needless posts ;D

    I’m with the ‘omit needless words’ camp.

    Obfuscation is intentional. You can have needless words that aren’t intended to confuse. Meaning matters. Otherwise I have a one-word answer:

    Don’t! :D

  338. 338.

    brantl

    They need to impeach Stump on january 21st, when he no longer has any pardon power, they need to strip him of his pension and government expense account . And you need to make the asshole pay for 300,000 lives lost, due to his ennui.

  342. 342.

    leeleeFL

    @Kattails:  I wondered why he’d choose Scotland, as it’s well-known he is more universally hated there than here. Fairly certain my Scottish fellows would slap him in irons and escort him home for punishment.

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