I believe Nancy will be speaking next. I don’t have a link for that.
Nancy has a link for that:
I will speak with reporters live at 2 pm ET at the Capitol following yesterday’s assault on our American democracy.
Watch here: https://t.co/2fi357l3G3
— Nancy Pelosi (@SpeakerPelosi) January 7, 2021
Open thread
ETA: She posted it to Twitter, where I’m sure you’ll be able to watch after the fact:
Yesterday, American democracy came under attack — but we refuse to be bullied into abandoning our duty to work #ForThePeople. https://t.co/6KoVAVbZh7
— Nancy Pelosi (@SpeakerPelosi) January 7, 2021
Baud
Today’s DOJ rollout has added significance after yesterday.
Baud
“Your loyalty is not to me.”
Elizabelle
A return to sanity. And the masked but nominated Merrick Garland.
Elizabelle
Damn. Pelosi stuck to her 2:00 p press conference time. She’s speaking now too.
Will have to catch it on C-Span after the fact.
Ah well. Embarrassment of riches.
Martin
I like this speech by Joe. He’s setting expectations for DOJ that his voters are going to hold him to. I also really like Vanita Gupta.
Dagaetch
Pelosi says 25th Amendment should be invoked; if it isn’t, House may impeach.
Elizabelle
@Dagaetch: Good!
Leto
Having to play catchup on this but so far very good speech.
Elizabelle
@Dagaetch: That will bother the Inciter in Chief. Bigly!
japa21
I really liked how he outlined the beginnings of DOJ and its original purpose, to defend the people’s civil rights.
Elizabelle
@japa21: Yes. Joe is good on situating the importance and providing a graceful civics lesson.
ETA: How are you feeling? Got the pneumonia on the run??
Another Scott
Biden is making a great case that these are the people needed to do the job now.
He’s right that it’s vitally important to fix the DoJ.
Cheers,
Scott.
Leto
@Martin: I’ve seen her quite a bit on MSNBC and she’s always impressed me as a very smart cookie.
NotMax
One item which ought to be on the 117th Congress’ plate is a from the ground up revamp and passage of the special prosecutor statute.
That, however, is not something to be rushed through higgledy-piggledy. Meantime would be quite amenable to seeing Bharara appointed a special prosecutor, one with a wide-ranging portfolio.
Joe Falco
AOC on Twitter has been saying today Congress should impeach and remove Trump if Pence and co. won’t man up and invoke the 25th Amendment. Articles of impeachment are being drawn up by Ilhan.
Cacti
Schumer released a statement that if the current Senate Sergeant at Arms doesn’t resign before the new Congress is sworn in, he’ll be fired immediately afterwards for yesterday’s security failure.
The House Sergeant at Arms and Capitol Police Chief should also be preparing their resignation letters.
Elizabelle
The 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.
Yea!
Elizabelle
The people’s Justice Department.
That would be refreshing.
Old School
@Cacti:
As I understood Nancy Pelosi, the Capitol Police Chief has submitted his resignation.
Baud
I assume Monoco was chosen for her cyber security experience.
Another Scott
Garland’s giving a very strong speech. I liked his bit about the law not just being words on the page, but foundational to our democracy. That gives me hope that he will follow the evidence and charge anyone – no matter their former status – who has attacked our government.
Godspeed.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Old School:
Good. Some accountability.
MisterForkbeard
@Joe Falco: https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/1347228936594477057
Raskin and Lieu have already started circulating THEIR articles of impeachment as of about 20 minutes ago. Looks like the House is starting to push on this seriously.
Elizabelle
Mitch McConnell would not give that intelligent and humane judge a hearing, but could not slam Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Covid Barey through fast enough.
Peale
@Cacti: I mean, come one. They only were posting their plans publicly. You can’t expect the security experts to find stuff that gets reported to them by Maxine Waters as a threat.
I mean, look, there is no obvious double standard. If we were posting online comments back in 2002 that we were planning to come in and prevent Congress from voting on the AUMF, I’m sure no one would have done anything about it.
Kattails
Hey Adam wherever you are, did you see this tweet from little Boebert?
We don’t need censure and or removal, we need a freaking exorcism.
lowtechcyclist
I don’t care what Nancy Pelosi has to say. The House has gone on vacation without impeaching Trump. They won’t be back in session until the 21st.
There’s no guarantee that Pence and the Cabinet will initiate the 25th Amendment, and no guarantee that Trump won’t find something crazier to do than the things he’s already done.
The House needed to act. Instead, they punted.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
Your objection is noted.
Barbara
@Old School: No, House Sergeant of Arms. Pelosi said that the Capitol Police Chief hasn’t even bothered to contact her or any of the other leaders. Which is almost unbelievable.
Old School
Nancy Pelosi’s briefing is done.
Basically, she wants Pence to state whether or not he’ll pursue the 25th Amendment option. If he doesn’t, there will be a second impeachment.
Old School
@Barbara: Thanks for the clarification.
Elizabelle
Damn. Chuck Todd breaks in on Vanita Gupta’s incredible introductory remarks.
She was just talking about white supremacy and mob violence and
== Let’s start this panel discussion this very minute.
NBC. Nothing But Corporatism.
White & Gold Purgatorian
Nancy Pelosi pulled no punches. Said if Trump wants to go in the records as the only president to be impeached twice — impeached, defeated, impeached and removed — that’s his choice. I think she is trying to force Pence to either invoke the 25th or force whoever Trump might still listen to to force him to resign now. Sounded like today is when she expects to have an answer, too.
Elizabelle
They broke in on the two women of color who have been nominated for DOJ leadership positions.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
i god, Chuck Todd starts his panel with Biden’s statement that he doesn’t want to discuss the 25th Amendment. “Tell me why he’s afraid to engage in this..”
Afraid
What a douche
Mike Memoji points out that Biden actually has no official governing role as yet
ETA: Smarmy little douche always wants to let everybody know how savvy he is
natem
Financial reporter I follow on Twitter, Heidi Moore, is making a pretty compelling case to just let things drag out until the 20th, if for nothing else to prevent Pence from massive pardons. (LINK)
japa21
@Elizabelle: Feeling better, but zero stamina. It’s been an interesting last week in many ways.
MisterForkbeard
@Old School: Good. Did she put a time frame on that?
It’s pretty clear that articles are being assembled and will be introduced as soon as they can figure out what the House support for it is like. We’re getting this from the ‘left’ and ‘establishment’ groups at the same time, so it looks like there’s broad if not complete support for more impeachment.
Not punting. I think this is about boxing in Rs. “They won’t even act after the president encouraged sedition and caused an assault on the capitol building, so we HAVE to impeach” is a good line.
mrmoshpotato
@Elizabelle: Upchuck Toddler, still trash.
Biden’s remarks and nominees are streaming on his YouTube page.
Fair Economist
@lowtechcyclist: The House can come back if appropriate. There’s no point in impeachment if McConnell continues to refuse to let the Senate meet. It’s actually counterproductive because Schumer will have to hold a trial before approving COVID relief, approving Biden’s cabinet, etc.
hueyplong
By calling on Pence to do the 25th, Pelosi and Schumer are positioning themselves to make the GOPers guarantors that Trump doesn’t do anything truly horrific.
In this short window of time and in view of how GOPers have consistently covered for Trump for the first 99.9% of his term, it’s not an irrational move, though obviously not the bold game board move so obviously preferred in the complete freedom of action universe of lowtechland.
Elizabelle
@natem: I do not find her compelling. I find her wholly cynical and she makes no moral case whatsoever.
Who gives a fuck what the GOP fundraises off until the end of time. It will always be something. Does not even have to be real.
gene108
Listened to Pelosi.
If Pence and the Cabinet do not invoke the 25A, she said Congress must take over in removing Trump.
She is 100% going to everything in her power to see that Trump does not finish his term.
She also called out Congressional Republicans for aiding in sedition.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@natem: that surprises me, because I was reading her a while ago, I can’t remember when or on what issue (I think the D primary), and I was astounded at how far left a former NPR reporter was, a Marketplace anchor (IIRC) no less. So surprise on top of an old (and possibly mis-remembered) surprise.
ETA: yup, that’s the person I remember. trump is the Dems’ fault.
PST
I noticed the three women to be nominated to the top level of assistants to the AG referred to the “women and men” of the DOJ. I’m hearing that more often.
taumaturgo
@lowtechcyclist: And Biden said he didn’t wish to engage. Why does that? Either he sees the rampage as a lesser incident or he is signaling to the conservative on the other side not to worry.
Another Scott
Kamala up.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kelly
I called my Rep Schrader, Sens Merkley and Wyden this morning. Told them I approved of Schumer’s statement on 25th or impeachment and asked them to support it.
Barbara
I didn’t realize that Garland had so much experience at DOJ. He is giving such an effective, measured case for his appointment.
Elizabelle
@mrmoshpotato: Yeah. I will go back and watch C-Span or Youtube later. Thanks.
Immanentize
@Baud: Noted, but overruled.
japa21
@Elizabelle: Todd hasn’t changed. Proof that the Peter Principle isn’t totally correct. Todd has risen several levels above the point of incompetence.
Baud
@Immanentize:
Appealed.
Old School
@MisterForkbeard:
She didn’t, but she said there was no reason Pence couldn’t let everyone know today.
Elizabelle
@Barbara: We could have had Justice Garland.
But no. Ms. Chao’s husband. Would. Not. Permit. so much as a hearing.
Tragedy, but AG Garland may have the last laugh and do a lot of momentous work at DOJ.
PST
@Fair Economist:
It won’t have to be much of a trial if it is a single count based on public statements. No investigation, few witnesses, and a fair amount of video.
Raven
@japa21: do you really think the host controls that?
Elizabelle
@taumaturgo: Because he didn’t want to step all over his DOJ top team? Because he wanted to give Schumer and Pelosi the first shots in what is going to be a multifaceted strategy?
I still think we need to hear from the former POTUSes and Secretaries of State, too. Why not flap on about their dereliction of duty?
natem
@Elizabelle: Yes that aspect of her argument doesn’t stick as well. But she’s right about Pence cocking everything up by dolling out pardons like they’re candy.
MisterForkbeard
@Fair Economist: I don’t think that’s a huge concern. If McConnell punts until Schumer is the Leader, then Bidens’ already president and the question is mostly moot, other than barring Trump from future office.
I don’t think the Senate is at all likely to vote to convict, so this is about boxing in Republicans and proving to the media (and america) who the real traitors are. It keeps the media from making this a “Republicans said some nice things during the electoral count so they’re really patriots!” framing.
gene108
@taumaturgo:
He’s still Joe from Wilmington, DE. He’s not a government official. He doesn’t need to muddy things by acting like he his.
cain
That asshole didn’t even call her after it all happened according to Pelosi’s briefing.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Christ on a crumpet but I detest Chuck Todd.
What a cockwaffle.
Three-nineteen
@Elizabelle:
LongHairedWeirdo
@lowtechcyclist: thinking on it, I actually feel that it’s better to wait until it’s clear that there’s no point in impeachment if the Senate will just hold a show trial again. Otherwise, impeaching Trump “when he’ll be gone in under two weeks!” will become the story if Republicans have any say in the matter.
Impeachment probably needs to wait for Republican senators to commit to doing the right thing, while everyone keeps asking them why they haven’t already.
Elizabelle
@gene108: And she will be living in Trump’s head today, too. Unless they are somehow keeping the information from him, or Fox News is covering …. oh, Hilaria Baldwin (ole!)
He must be apoplectic.
MisterForkbeard
@gene108: Taumaturgo and Lowtech are officially on the “I don’t care what Biden/Pelosi/Schumer have to say” train, which should remove them from actual consideration of their opinions.
Biden’s letting Pelosi and Schumer’s ultimatum play out. That’s it. If Pence doesn’t respond or responds negatively, then that’s when Biden speaks out and that’s when the opportunity to act for Dems is.
These guys are always on the “the Dems are doing it wrong and are the real problem” train, so I’m not terribly surprised.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
I’m in a zoom hearing break right now. I just gave an appropriate, measured and scholarly objection with an appropriate citation of law and established a clear nexus to the facts.
Of course, you know what happened.
Overruled.
Immanentize
§This is why I want the House to Impeach Trump as soon as they can get enough votes:
Art. II, §2, cl. 1.
That would be enough for me to vote “yea.”
It sounds like Nancy, who knows her caucus, has received agreement from the majority of members of the house (almost all of the Dems) that they will act if Pence does not. Not my preferred outcome, but I get it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elizabelle: You have to remember you’re dealing with someone who thinks “Look out the window, Mitch” was a can’t-fail legislative strategy. Biden need only speak magic words, and then THE PEOPLE will rise up! Bernie would speak those words. AOC(!) would speak those words! Biden doesn’t have the ballz, cause he’s a corporate compromise neo-liberal.
A lot of people on snarky twitter mock earnest twitter as being warped by the West Wing program. I genuinely believe Rose twitter was warped by Harry Potter. ETA: and of course, the Bernie Dumbledore campaign. Remember the little birdie?
Immanentize
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
You fucked up, you trusted the Judge.
mali muso
I am watching the Biden feed on a bit of a delay and am really impressed with the civics and history lesson that is going on.
natem
“Cockwaffle” is always a fair assessment of Chuck Todd, yesterday, today, and presumably forever.
hueyplong
@LongHairedWeirdo: And we could expect lots of peacocking from Hawley and Cruz in a circus Senate trial.
Elizabelle
@Three-nineteen: Thank you.
I’ve seen Nancy Smash be quite late for some pressers, and wondered if she might do that today, once Biden scheduled the DOJ rollout.
She is running on adrenaline and a little bit of dark chocolate now, no?
Baud
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Ken
As I recall from the last time this happened – less than a year ago – the Senate can set the rules for handling the impeachment. Last time they didn’t have witnesses; this time they don’t even have to hold a trial, just an up or down vote on whether to bar Trump from ever again holding federal office.
gene108
@Old School:
Yeah, she made it pretty clear that Pence will either signal “yay” or “nay” on invoking the 25A very soon.
She did not say Pence needs to call her and inform her directly.
She made it so that by his action or inaction she’ll decide very quickly.
I think she’s probably waiting for articles of impeachment to be finalized.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Three-nineteen:
Wow. Somebody last night said she looked dead on her feet at the podium. I guess she ate some fancy coffee ice cream.
Leto
Swapped over to CNN and the reporter there was talking about how the FBI was asking for information on helping to ID these fucks, and the reporter was like: well, we just did a simple internet search and turned up most of these people. Long string of profanities erupted from me. Also reminded me of this item I posted yesterday: The Rioters Who Took Over The Capitol Have Been Planning Online In The Open For Weeks
Every part of our Justice system needs reviewed. Systemic failures at every level. The radical right has compromised every part of our government
Edit: CNN blasting Hawley for campaigning during the siege, and now showing Fuckface Cruz at a GA radical right rally urging on the people there, saying it was the same as Bunker Hill and other shit. And then he had the fucking temerity go on the floor of the Senate and peddle conspiracy claims there.
Just fucking… unending rage.
Immanentize
@Baud: I was referring to the original objection! Unless you want to sustain it now? Then I will fight you on appeal! :-)
Cameron
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Impeaching him was coddling him? What am I missing?
LongHairedWeirdo
Apropos of nothing, someone should ask Kimberly Guilfoyle if this is what she meant when she said “the best!
“IS YET!
“TO COME!”
Calouste
@gene108: Technically, Pence has to inform Pelosi directly (and the President Pro Temp of the Senate), it’s right there in the 25th Amendment.
NotMax
While realizing it is now S.O.P., still couldn’t help but take notice of just how quickly someone swept in with a canister of wipes to disinfect the desk after Pence left the dais following the ending of the joint session.
;)
Elizabelle
@Leto: Which makes you wonder if the FBI is curious about public response for other reasons, as well.
Baud
@Cameron:
People whose self-worth is dependent on looking down on Dems do not exist exclusively on the right.
Leto
@NotMax: our new norm.
VOR
@taumaturgo: Or maybe Biden wants to focus on rolling out his team today, the actual purpose of the event.
Elizabelle
@Leto: We got such a better history lesson watching Joe B and his competent and inspiring DOJ nominees.
BlueGuitarist
@Immanentize: Yes exactly, impeach to take away the pardon power. Should also include emoluments violations to take the pardon away for all family and associates corruption as well.
ETA Even if not removed by Senate, impeached by the House should be enough to constrain pardon.
Fair Economist
@MisterForkbeard: The point is that if Senate leadership and 1/3 of Senate Republicans aren’t on board, impeachment doesn’t do any good because Trump is still in til the 20th and then Schumer has a trial to deal with while the Villagers tut-tut 24/7 about “moving on”. If we want to prosecute Trump after Biden’s inauguration we should do so in court or at least after more evidence is available.
Captain C
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m still waiting for them to do that for the tax cuts, ACA Repeal, the Beer Rapist and Amy Covid, Impeachment, stimulus and aid bills, and so forth. What was stopping anyone?
Leto
@Elizabelle: head of FBI? Dude gotta go. Full sweep.
Baud
@Leto:
That seems not rage inducing. You would think the FBI would immediately ask for help without first spending time to cross-checking to see who they could identify on their own.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cameron: Moore, low-tech cyclist and taumaturgid share a common POV with Rose twitter and Do-Something Twitter: “Democrats” and “Republicans” are two equal forces, the only difference is the will to act. Votes don’t matter, either in the electorate at large or the House and Senate. Designated Constitutional powers don’t matter. It’s all about balls! or volume. Or something.
Baud
@Captain C: They couldn’t even do it with the $2000 checks.
Kattails
One other option about Pence– he’s feeling betrayed by Trump, according to some of the things I’ve read. He may just go for the 25th, and then step aside, be done with the whole thing. Let Pelosi run out the last few days, he goes home and works out what the rest of his life might look like, without any more pressing responsibilities.
Elizabelle
@Immanentize: Not having read the cite (LOL):
Cases of Impeachment:
do you read that as “Impeached and Convicted” or just impeachment charges brought and underway?
Leto
@Elizabelle: Yup! Reading the comments here was a sort of preview of what was coming, but hearing them aloud was such a wonderful thing. Hearing them in full gave me hope. I know it’s not going to be immediate, but it’s the long hard work we have to do.
Immanentize
Here are Omar’s proposed Articles of Impeachment:
Ken
@Immanentize: But does that clause mean that the President can’t pardon someone who has been impeached, or that the pardon power is suspended while the President is being impeached? I would read it as the first.
The Moar You Know
@Old School: This does not appear to be the case. He should resign today if he hasn’t already. Their response was indefensible.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The amazing thing to me so far is how petty and stupid this seems the close I look at it
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/trump-pence-riot/index.html
This article makes it sound like Rudy and Meadows talked Trump sending the mob to attack Pence to draw Trump’s attention away from Rudy and Meadows own screw ups. That’s a really fucked up thought that none of these clowns realized their petty back stabbing almost started a civil war.
Immanentize
@Elizabelle: I definitely read it as a “case of impeachment” — that is when someone is Impeached (by the House vote). It really cannot structurally mean, “when convicted by the Senate.”
moonbat
@Kattails: Well, there’ll still be ‘Mother’ to keep happy.
Immanentize
@Baud: I think I may have to watch that tonight just for the expert witness scene.
Elizabelle
@Kattails: Three presidents in 13 days.
We are living through history, and why should that be any less likely than anything that’s happened in recent days. History on steroids.
Leto
@Baud: sure, ask for help; but as I posted with that link, this shit has been out in the open for weeks. The FBI should’ve released arrest warrant pics for most of these people.
Chyron HR
@Captain C:
America needed to be taught a lesson.
MobiusKlein
Nancy Smash!
She called for 25th, or failing that, impeachment.
MisterForkbeard
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I mean, we’re the commentariat here. I’m sure it’s about the volume of balls or something.
Regardless, it doesn’t make any sense and they’re insistent that Democrats be the only people with agency but have to do it perfectly and also not bow to certain realities or complexities and why can’t they just make it work! Etc.
Immanentize
@Ken: It can’t be can it? Because Impeachment is not a criminal remedy at all. I see how the Court could consider it that, but the commutation and pardon powers only extend to criminal matters.
I have not looked at the debate notes on this clause in a while and I wasn’t worried about this aspect — but I will!
Leto
@Immanentize: about 100 House Dems have signed on to this. 1 GOP member, Rep Adam Kinzinger R-IL.
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: Can’t look now, but is this the same text as Raskin’s?
I’m not sure whether I’d be concerned or happy if Dems produced several different versions of this.
Kattails
@moonbat: It has occurred to me that “Mother” might just be encouraging that, she might want him out of there.
Elizabelle
Tidbit from NY Times article on Nancy Pelosi press conference:
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Cameron:
The Dems didn’t wave their magic wands and recite the spell. If they had, the Republicans totally would’ve disappeared in a puff of smoke!
hueyplong
We live in interesting times.
Barely more than 24 hours after we weren’t sure if Pence would actually limit himself to opening the envelope on the EC results, we’re speculating about whether Renfield might invoke the 25th Am on Dracula.
Man, boredom was so underrated.
Elizabelle
Pence wouldn’t pick up the phone, so Nancy Smash and Chuck Schumer took their comments public.
LOL.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I mean….
Old School
@The Moar You Know:
Yes, I misunderstood Pelosi’s comment. It was the House sergeant-at-arms who resigned.
NotMax
@Immanentize
Agreed. It is (IMHO), essentially intended to prevent a president from acting in the capacity of a judge issuing a ruling in his own case.
Side note based on some of the comments above:
When it comes to Dolt 45’s family members he could still issue pardons related to the same infractions presented in the articles of impeachment, specific to them as they are not the subjects of impeachment.
(Mandatory IANAL.)
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Wait, since when was Moore (as in commenter Roger Moore?) a Green Lanternist? He’s always been pretty levelheaded imo
hueyplong
Can’t this be the ultimate denunciation of GOP-run America?
“I’ve talked to WH officials who chose to stay [in a toxic WH run by a monster] because they don’t want to lose their health insurance.”
dmsilev
@Elizabelle: “You’ve reached the Vice President Pence customer service center. Your call is very important to us. Please listen carefully to the following, as our menu options have changed.”
MisterForkbeard
@NotMax: Interesting. Since Ivanka and Jared are official White House Advisors, can THEY be impeached? It’s not an elected position, but I have no idea. Since obviously IANAL
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Heidi Moore, former NPR/Marketplace reporter
Elizabelle
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): He might mean Moar, The Moar You Know. Who is an excitable boy as well.
Immanentize
@MisterForkbeard: Haven’t seen his yet. But, knowing the world as we do, my guess is the grieving white guy’s version will be the primary one going forward?
Immanentize
@MisterForkbeard: Only Senate-confirmed officers can be “impeached.”
The Moar You Know
@Leto: my gut level ugly suspicion is that the FBI is not interested in who showed up to overthrow the government – they already know that. They’re very interested in who rats those people out.
p.a.
There are very ambitious people in the craven Rethuglican Party. I could see how Constitutionally denying donnie dollhands a future opportunity to hold office would be enticing. But the fear of the rabid brownshirt hordes they helped create… complicates… the matter.
Elizabelle
My pals at the NY Times sent me a fresh email:
BREAKING NEWS
President Trump has suggested to aides in recent weeks that he wants to pardon himself, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions.
Thursday, January 7, 2021 3:04 PM EST
In several conversations since Election Day, Mr. Trump has told advisers that he is considering giving himself a pardon and, in other instances, asked whether he should and what the impact would be on him legally and politically, according to the two people.
It was not clear whether he has broached the topic since he incited his supporters on Wednesday to storm the Capitol in a mob attack.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Oh. Thanks! I was a little confused
@Elizabelle:
Eh, he’s alright. In any case, Jim meant Heidi Moore, the NPR Marketplace host
Leto
@dmsilev: is this when you call his office, or when you talk to Mike Dense? (Yuk yuk yuk)
Elizabelle
@The Moar You Know: Exactly.
Leto
Gov Whitmer on MSNBC saying what we saw yesterday was the same thing Michigan experienced. Yup. Said Trumpov didn’t do anything then, hasn’t do anything now; is encouraging/excusing this. Saying nobody in the Republican Party has done anything. Agreed.
Elizabelle
@Leto: I love her office backdrop. The 30s style WPA posters for the Great Lakes.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
John James still “2,000%” with trump? I think he was when his fellow MI Republicans were trying to annul the votes of Detroit.
NotMax
@MisterForkbeard
(Again, IANAL)
Magic 8-ball sez no. Because they hold neither an elective office nor occupy a position covered by (whether it has been undertaken or not) advise and consent. Supposition is they could be censured but that would be the limit, Congressionally (not judicially) speaking.
Terrible analogy but it would be like attempting to impeach a White House chef.
MisterForkbeard
@Leto: That’s precisely it. Trump and Republicans have encouraged and pushed this behavior for decades. Even when it blows up, they don’t actually DO anything about it. At most they say they’re disappointed or concerned and then fuck off to enjoy their fascism somewhere else.
I think we need to make this point repeatedly. It’s not that this is isolated. For decades now Republicans have pushed the “Democrats are the real enemy, traitors, and need to be ground into dust” line. They’ve had it echoed by their propaganda chamber. They ALL supported this and they made this happen, and it’s not just on Trump.
Republicans are the problem, until they can learn to act like decent fellow citizens. And the media can’t treat them as decent, because they aren’t.
Ken
@hueyplong: No, I view it as a failure of the Trump administration to make people aware of their benefits under the ACA. Those staffers could quit, and buy a policy on the exchanges within a couple of hours. They’ll have to do that in two weeks, so might as well get in before the rush.
MisterForkbeard
@NotMax: A Chef? I’d be in favor of impeaching whoever served mcdonald’s hamberders to those teen athletes in the White House.
Oh wait, that was Trump. It’s okay, we can impeach him for that too.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Baud:
I know that there had to be a real life practicing attorney consulting on it due to that chunk of dialogue.
MisterForkbeard
@Immanentize: Here’s the Raskin/Lieu language:
https://twitter.com/davidcicilline/status/1347228936594477057/photo/1
Leto
@Elizabelle: Agreed! I really like those posters. I love art like that.
@MisterForkbeard: yes!
Ken
I keep sticking on, worse how? Is this more of the “secretly moderating some of what Trump tries to do” nonsense?
Another Scott
@Elizabelle: With the understanding that these anonymous conversations could be with any one of tens of thousands of people who work in the Executive Branch and are therefore worth only a tiny bit more than idle gossip on Twitter, …
Of course he’s thinking about pardoning himself. And he may try to do it. In general, if he has the choice of doing the reasonable and sensible thing, and doing the other thing that causes as much chaos and damage as possible to the US Government and the country, he will choose Option B every single time – after loudly speculating about it.
“We’ll see what happens.”
It’s what he does.
The only reason he wouldn’t is if he’s told by sensible people that it will damage his own self.
That’s it.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
This video, and the responses…
It’s like they’re a bunch of 4th graders on a field trip.
NotMax
@Ken
Sirhan Sirhan for head of the Secret Service?
//
Hoodie
@germy: I guess you could say it was nice of them to pre-pose for the mugshots.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
germy
@Hoodie:
They should have been marched into police vans. But they just wandered off.
And now the FBI is on social media asking “cAn yOu hELp uS fInD thEm?”
Leto
@germy: < this
BlueGuitarist
@NotMax:
@Immanentize
Article in the Atlantic July 2020 by political scientists Tulis and Brettschneider asserts/speculates the “except in cases of impeachment,” phrase added to the Constitution “bans a president from using the pardon and reprieve power to commute the sentences of people directly associated with any impeachment charges against him.”
They quote from the Virginia ratifying convention.
George Mason: “the President ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself” and Madison’s response that impeachment would prevent that.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/traditional-interpretation-pardon-power-wrong/614083/
Imagine the house impeaches a president for hiring an assassin to kill a rival. This interpretation would mean the president couldn’t pardon the assassin, which seems much more reasonable than the alternative. So if impeached for emoluments violations, then couldn’t pardon his partners in those crimes.
Ken
@NotMax: Ah, yes. I hadn’t considered the people – I’d call them “Millerites” but that already has an historical definition – who’d use the powers of government for their own evil purposes, instead of just passively doing what their evil boss orders.
Immanentize
@BlueGuitarist: So, I was right!
sanjeevs
I can’t believe after all this Biden nominated a Republican to be AG.
Garland is good with the words though just like Comey.
I mean if Garland actually is this person he says he is, why the fuck is he a Republican. The last decent non treasonous Republican President was Ike and that’s 60 years ago.
J could understand if the Senate was 48-52 but it isn’t. This is fucked up
Baud
@sanjeevs:
Looks like you’ve chosen to spend life as a troll. Congratulations on your new role.
Subsole
@Elizabelle: Nazis, But Closeted
Chetan Murthy
A few naysayers here, calling Pelosi a coward, not actually willing to stand up, etc. What bullshit. She’s giving Pence a chance to do the right thing, and that’s important, b/c if you believe that the GrOPers need to become a decent party again (b/c Duverger’s Law: there -will- be an opposition, and we want a loyal opposition, ffs) then you want to give them the oppty to walk this back, undo this madness.
And it’s always better to have a broad coalition: if it becomes a Democrats-only initiative, it WILL fail.
I was a little angry, until she came out demanding that Shitler resign, demanding the 25A solution, threatening impeachment.
Listening to her answering questions: goddamn, I wanted her to tell these reporters (who asked “how long are you going to give Pence to decide on 25A?”), to tell them “Go ask VP Pence when he’s gonna invoke 25A, go ask HIM!”
Fuuuuck. Murc’s Law: “Only Dems have agency.” Fuuuck.
lowtechcyclist
@Fair Economist:
I don’t see that. Apparently it’s an open question as to whether they can impeach a President after he’s left office, so Schumer could just say that might exceed his authority and besides, it’s moot anyway.
And yes, the House can come back. But with 13 days to go, it seems silly to build in the delay involved in round trips to and from the West Coast and Hawaii – and without the Reps from the Pacific states, Pelosi doesn’t have a majority. Seems more like a plan to pretend to be moving forward while running out the clock.
It seems especially odd when the House was originally supposed to be in session today and tomorrow.
lowtechcyclist
@Chetan Murthy:
Both sides have agency, but leading Dems seem awfully reluctant to use it.
sanjeevs
@Baud: So what does Garland think of Iran-Contra?
He looked at it thirty years ago and decided that’s the party he wanted to belong to. Stayed a member through Bush 2 and Abu Ghraib
tam1MI
It seems especially odd when the House was originally supposed to be in session today and tomorrow.
Well, gee, it’s not like anything happened yesterday that might make Pelosi think that members of the House might need a day off.
lowtechcyclist
@MisterForkbeard:
Oh dear me I’m sorry for caring about what they DO. By all means that should disqualify my opinions.
Chetan Murthy
@lowtechcyclist: JESUS FUCK. Just fuck right off with that bullshit. Why don’t you go down there and moon Ol’ Donnie your OWN self, if you think that pointless gestures fucking matter. Imbecile.
She’s not a moron, unlike you, and she knows that pointless gestures count for NOTHING. He’s a FUCKING MOB BOSS. You don’t dissuade John Gotti with a sternly worded fucking letter, and that is all a failed impeachment is. She’s trying to get Pence to go 25A, b/c otherwise, the chances of stopping this madman are virtually NIL, and she knows it.
Jesus H. Christ, you barking mad moron.
Chetan Murthy
@lowtechcyclist:
You don’t care what they -do-: you care about “sending a message”. Dimwit dropped-on-your-head fucking imbecile. A second impeachment without a conviction is virtually nil. The only use I can see of it, is that it might stop pardons. It won’t stop his next coup attempt. You single-neuron-disease victim.
dimmsdale
Eric Swalwell just on MSNBC (no link bc caught it in real time) indicating that the forthcoming investigations MUST consider the possibility of collusion with the mob from inside the Capitol BY congressional staff. If indeed investigations go forward, we may be looking at serious charges against some Republican congressmen and their staffers. (That’s getting WAY out over the skis, of course, but … clearly that’s one way all this may be going.)
Ian
@hueyplong:
Or, you know, if that doesn’t work. The GOP establishment cant guarantee Trump’s behavior, by his nature even mentioning such a thing will cause more outlandish actions. Immediate removal is the safest option for all life.
Immanentize
@dimmsdale: Now that is interesting. Hadn’t considered it, but obvious now.
VeniceRiley
@dimmsdale: Swalwell is right. I would not put it past goopers to tell the traitors where to go to find, say, the elctor’s ballots. Young ladies in the senate staff took the cases to safety.
NotMax
@hueyplong
Have said it before and shall do so again. The 25th amendment is not a tool designed for the type of situation (and the remaining time frame) in which we find ourselves.
In this instance, like hammering in a nail by using a cucumber.
Uncle Cosmo
The Constitution and the practice of the Senate strongly imply that “barring anyone from ever again holding federal office” can happen only after that person has been impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate (on a 2/3 vote), whereupon a motion to disqualify the person from Federal office is carried by simple majority. Here is a discussion of the issue.
Another Scott
@sanjeevs: Psst. [whisper] Hillary was a Goldwater Girl. [/whisper]
(groucho-roll-eyes.gif)
Cheers,
Scott.
Elizabelle
@dimmsdale: When I heard how quickly the rioters had breached, I guessed they had help from Congressional staff.
My first thought was not “Capitol Police.”
And now we will be looking at the actions of both.
There have to be cameras all over the Capitol. Curious to know if any went out of service.
Fair Economist
@lowtechcyclist:
There’s no question that they can impeach after office. Impeachment can also include barring from future office.
It’s not likely to be a huge burden to dispose of an impeachment after the 20th, but it is a burden, and if there’s no chance of removal what’s the point.
Ruckus
@NotMax:
When a cucumber is the only hammer at hand……
Just my 2 cents here,
Impeachment is the best course because it would stop him from doing anything, but will take time and should be done for the general principle of very unfitness. Are there 67 that will vote for passage?
The 25th can be done in a very short time, which gives breathing room for the impeachment, which is why Adam called for both.
gvg
@sanjeevs: He is not a republican. He doesn’t show partisanship at all but He was originally appointed by Clinton. You are making stuff up or confusing him with someone else.
Chetan Murthy
@Fair Economist:
That and a tube sock and some mason jars, and lowtechcyclist is all set! Here ya go, lowtechcyclist: http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2009/06/false-accusations-of-death-threats.html
[trigger warning: it’s a little (but only a little) disgusting, so be warned]
Uncle Cosmo
I said the same on this blog for many months during the current misAdministration whenever some Jackal blathered about using it to remove Orangecandyass. But in the current situation I’m not so sure I agree.
Presuming Mikey Dense can secure (and retain for the next several days) the support of 8 of the heads of the 15 “principal executive” (i.e., Cabinet) departments, invoking the 25th would take the Presidential means for mayhem out of Mango Mussolini’s hands:
Both houses of Congress have 3 weeks (plus 48 hours to reconvene if out of session) to agree by 2/3 vote that the Emperor Tang® is incapable, whence Pence remains APOTUS. If they don’t so vote before time runs out, Chicken Brittle would resumes the power and duties of the Presidency.
But since we are only 13 days from the end of Trump’s term, Pence could simply run out the clock as APOTUS: No vote would be needed to prevent Cheeto Benito from “resuming the powers and duties” before his term expires. (If necessary, Speaker Pelosi could arrange for the House to slow-walk the process until time’s up.)
Now, if the overriding need is to prevent Agolf Twitler from new atrocities (declaring martial law, nuking Iran, etc.), this would make eminent sense. With one important proviso: Can Pence can be trusted not to perpetrate equivalent outrages as APOTUS? That’s the rub.
So I can’t unequivocally recommend it. But it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
sanjeevs
@gvg: Heard this before about Comey, then Mueller.
At the end of the day it’s party first for these people.
Chetan Murthy
@NotMax:
It’s the only tool at our disposal. I mean, unless you really think that the GrOPers in the Senate will vote to convict. Me, I got no hopes there. None. It’s 25A, or we’re stuck clinging on this cliff face for the next 15 days.
planetjanet
@sanjeevs:
What evidence do you have that Merrick Garland is a Republican? I have seen nothing that indicates that at all. There are actual professionals who maintain a non-partisan approach to their work. They really do exist.
Gvg
@sanjeevs: he is not a republican. No evidence he is a democrat either, though democratic Presidents have promoted him. His trial results seem more liberal. You are just making stuff up.
evodevo
@Elizabelle: Yes. This. Was wondering yesterday, when it became apparent that there was collusion on the part of the Capitol Police….if one of them is in charge of the security cams, well, then, I doubt if there is any footage…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sanjeevs: where in his bio– clerking for Wm Brennan, Carter DoJ, Clinton DoJ, appointed to bench by Clinton, promoted by Obama, do you see evidence he’s a Republican ?
J R in WV
@hueyplong:
Like I trust anyone in the Fascist-Republican party to guarantee anything — plus, Trump’s horrific could make everyone, everywhere, dead as in glow in the dark.
J R in WV
@taumaturgo:
taumaturgo, Mr Biden holds no office right now. Just perhaps he intends to allow people who ACTUALLY HOLD AN OFFICE RIGHT NOW do what they can do about “president” Trump. Try having a thought for once! Once Mr Biden becomes President Biden, he can speak with that authority.
For now, Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Schumer have the authority of their offices, and can actually take action, as opposed to private citizen Biden.
J R in WV
@natem:
You ignorance is shining here — Pence has not pardoned anyone, and can’t pardon anyone. That power rests in the President, not his Vice President, not at all. Trump is indeed cocking things up by issuing pardons.
J R in WV
@Ken:
Regular criminals aren’t impeached, they’re indicted, tried, and either convicted or not. Only high officials, like Presidents and Vice Presidents get impeached. So your read is dead wrong.
J R in WV
@dimmsdale:
This evening, after returning home from the latest expedition to shop for food etc, we watched Maryland gov Hogan tell us how senior members of congress called him begging for Maryland police and National guard to help quell the mob attack on our capital.
But the National Guard couldn’t be sent without approval from the DOD/Pentagon, which was not forthcoming. For at least 90 minutes they waited for DOD approval from the SecDef. Eventually the Governor got a call from the SecArmy who gave him oral approval to move Maryland National Guard troops into the DC to quell the insurrection at the capital.
Sounds like to me the Trump administration was deliberately attempting to keep actual force from being brought to bear on the rioters running wild in the nation’s house. One more wide spread aspect of the conspiracy to over throw our democratic form of government.
ETA: This is my shocked face; :~0
J R in WV
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Where do you see any sign that sanjeevs needs or responds to evidence on any subject? sanjeevs is headed for the pie safe, so far as I’m concerned.
Amazing how much more interesting Balloon Juice is when the non-thinkers and ignorant are excepted from the discourse!
Kent
@Uncle Cosmo: Strategically speaking, I’m not sure I really want to ban him from future office. I almost want to see him completely blow up the 2024 GOP primary and turn it into a cesspool of MAGA racism and misogyny. Demographics are against that being a winning strategy again. The 2024 electorate will be a lot different from the 2016 electorate.
But I know….playing with fire and all.
Kent
@Ruckus: Both impeachment and 25th Amendment require a majority of leading Republicans to implement. Without a majority of the GOP leadership on board nothing happens. If that’s the case, might as well do the quick and easy route.
Mary G
Deleted because I thought this was today’s thread.