Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

the 10% who apparently lack object permanence

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

The snowflake in chief appeared visibly frustrated when questioned by a reporter about egg prices.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

The republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

You are here: Home / Politics / 25th, 14th Section 3 and Impeachment on the Agenda

25th, 14th Section 3 and Impeachment on the Agenda

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So, the House is asserting its prerogatives and defense mechanisms.

A call for unanaminous consent to pass a resolution asking Vice President Pence to initiate the 25th Amendment. The Vice President will have twenty four hours.

An impeachment resolution will be voted on no later than Wednesday with the slim possibility of the House rules allowing for a vote on Monday.

And then she is quite interested in members’ thoughts on the 14th Amendment’s Section 3:

No Person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Reader Interactions

350Comments

  2. 2.

    Wapiti

    So Traitor Jr. might be barred from a political career?

    Speaking at his Traitor daddy’s incitement speech might qualify as “have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof”.

    Nvm, he wasn’t oath sworn as an officer of the US.

  3. 3.

    Tony Jay

    She’s asking Congress to have a good think about whether they want to kick the Rebel Representatives and Seditious Senators right up their collective hoops and out of the building?

    Hardcore.

    ETA – She’s also including every Insurrectionist who holds any kind of Government job down to and including town dog-catcher? Mein Gott, that would seriously hollow out the GOP. Got to believe that a LOT of ‘mainstream’ Republicans who are in it for the money and the nice jobs might look at this as a chance to purge their Party of the Crazies…. but then… who’s left?

  4. 4.

    CaseyL

    Nancy plants the shiv, and it is wonderful to see.

    This is particularly delicious, since she was (I think) unwilling to go as far as Article 14 Sec. 3 when “all” they were doing is perpetuating the lie that the election was stolen.

    Now that they’ve given aid and support to an actual insurrection/coup attempt, it might be easier to kick them out under that heading.

  5. 5.

    Bruuuuce

    @Wapiti: On the other hand, if he can be documented as having fomented sedition, his position with Republicans might…

    Never mind. Was going to say “be weakened”, and just can’t bring myself to type the actually accurate “be cemented forever” without weeping.

  6. 6.

    Kattails

    I adore Madame Speaker, and I don’t believe we can wait on Pence. He’s been asked. He clearly does not have the stones. Every day with Donnie loose on the streets is another day the country is in peril. I said the other day that she knows here business better than I ever will; yet my anxiety levels are not abating.

  7. 7.

    oldgold

    The Reconstruction Amendments are better seen as restating the Constitution as opposed to amending it.

    This is one of the problems with the Originalist view of the Constitution.

  8. 8.

    PenandKey

    @CaseyL: Being the target of a  nearly successful apparent hostage taking or assassination attempt in the middle of a storming riot while members of her chamber live tweeted her location may have influenced her behavior.

  9. 9.

    TaMara (HFG)

    So Trump is going on the road tomorrow? Like, expecting crowds? What’s the over/under every journalist/internet investigator/FBI will be scanning those crowds for patriots seditionists?

  10. 10.

    SoupCatcher

    Am I understanding the language correctly that the House could vote on each member who engaged in supporting insurrection and, if that person did not get 2/3 support, that person is out?

    eta. I’m not sure I’m following the last paragraph.

  11. 11.

    CROAKER

    Sorry GAME OVER.  Needed to go tomorrow.  Grab your love ones a little tighter.

    No fucks left to give.  

  12. 12.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kattails: there are rumors of R ‘critters willing to co-sponsor, maybe this is one of their demands. Maybe not.

    In any case, I suspect this moves the needle on actual conviction by very, very little. If a couple more R Senators– and Collins doesn’t count– come out for impeachment, something stronger than “willing to consider”, then I think something has moved in their party.

  16. 16.

    CaseyL

    @PenandKey: It would sure concentrate the focus of my mind!

    But Nancy has the kind of grit that a threat to her own person wouldn’t outrage her as much as the threats posed to her as Speaker, and to her caucus as a whole.

  17. 17.

    Damned_at_Random

    @SoupCatcher: Looks like that’s what it says to me. There are some surprising traps  in the constitution wrt treason after the unfortunate misunderstanding in the 1860″s

  20. 20.

    Tony Jay

    @SoupCatcher:

    That’s what it looks like. The question is who has the authority to say “This person engaged in or supported insurrection against the United States”? A vote in the House for Representatives and a vote in the Senate for Senators? Is it simple majority?

    “Waiter! Bring me a bottle of something red, two glasses and a Constitutional nerd. Thanks.”

  21. 21.

    Scamp Dog

    @SoupCatcher: I think that it’s saying that they can be allowed back in if they get 2/3 support; it doesn’t say exactly how they first get tagged with the disqualification, but I guess it would come from a conviction in court, or perhaps a vote of congress.

  25. 25.

    Spider-Dan

    She’s also including every Insurrectionist who holds any kind of Government job down to and including town dog-catcher? Mein Gott, that would seriously hollow out the GOP.

    @Tony Jay: Well, at least until the next election.  You can eject the seditionists, and maybe you can even bar them from federal office… but you can’t prevent a new wave of Qers replacing them in the GOP primaries.

  26. 26.

    Spanky

    @Tony Jay: What are you doing up at this hour? Jaysus! Are you a 3 AM rambler like a bunch of us on this side of the pond?

    (I do realize it’s only 1 AM there, but it’s a workday, innit?)

  27. 27.

    Tony Jay

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Their removal for cause would be God’s Work. Strike that, it would be the work of many Gods, old and new, known and unknown, from the lowliest anthropomorphic representation of a Summer breeze to that bearded Sky-Fairy guy in all the paintings. Basically they’d all want in on it.

    I’d like to think that 139 GOP Representatives are, right now, sitting in a room receiving a lecture from some ashen faced Republican legal-eagle and feeling that sudden, hot, motion down-below that signals the arrival of reality in their cosy little cosplayarama.

  29. 29.

    RSA

    @Jinchi: I’d add Mo Brooks to the list; he gave the opening speech at the January 6 rally:

    “Our ancestors sacrificed their blood, their sweat, their tears, their fortunes, sometimes their lives to give us their descendants an America that is the greatest nation in world history. So I have a question for you. Are you willing to do the same? My answer is yes. Louder, are you willing to do what it takes to fight for America? Louder, will you fight for America?”

  30. 30.

    TaMara (HFG)

    @Damned_at_Random: I made the mistake of coming back online after a peaceful afternoon  – I posted what you may have missed in the previous thread, in case you want a synopsis. Or maybe just skip it if you need to keep your sanity.

  34. 34.

    Just Chuck

    @Tony Jay: I’m pretty sure it’s aimed at T, and that the articles spell it out that he’s barred from ever holding office again.

    But I would also call it a shot across the bow…

  36. 36.

    dmsilev

    Pence either doesn’t want to invoke the 25th or can’t get the majority support of the Cabinet that he would need. From the outside, we can’t tell which, and I’m not sure it matters either way. Point being, passing a resolution calling on him to use the 25th is vanishingly unlikely to do anything. It takes (or wastes, depending on your views) a day.

    I guess, given what we know of the Senate’s schedule, taking that day doesn’t make any real difference in terms of ‘what will get Trump out of office the fastest’. Either he gets 25’d or he gets termed out on the 20th.

  37. 37.

    WaterGirl

    @Spider-Dan:

    but you can’t prevent a new wave of Qers replacing them in the GOP primaries.

    I think you can.  if they prosecute the people who “stormed” the Capital, those people will not be able to hold office.

  39. 39.

    Tony Jay

    @Spider-Dan:

    True, but that’s why toilet cisterns refill after every use. There’s always something else that needs flushing.

    @Spanky:

    Working from home during Lockdown, so as long as I’m at my laptop and ready to do….whatever…. by 8am it’s all good. It’s your fault for having ‘interesting’ things happening, anyway. Events on this side of the Atlantic are so uniformly depressing that watching the ideological allies of our Tories get positioned for an almighty curb-stomping is strangely soothing.

  41. 41.

    moonbat

    Forgive me if this has already been answered, but could this be a shortcut to get rid of all the Trump “plants” in civil service jobs?

    Given all the other things we could currently be anxious about, it may seem small, but if these people could be nailed for violations of the 14th Amendment and booted in a timely fashion, it could help with Biden’s team being able to clean and put our house in order faster. Especially in the DoD which has had me worried for quite some time.

  43. 43.

    WaterGirl

    @dmsilev: My guess is that the extra day gives Pelosi time to get some wobbly folks in line.  Or maybe some are saying I will vote to impeach only if Pence doesn’t do it, and this delay is to get them on board.

  45. 45.

    Wapiti

    @dmsilev: Bring each cabinet officer in to the House and have them explain why they provided material support to the Traitor by not backing Pence. Then add them to the 14th Amendment ban list.

  46. 46.

    dmsilev

    @WaterGirl: That sounds plausible to me. It also gives more time for more of the terrifying details to emerge; we’re finding out more and more about what happened every day.

  47. 47.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Damned_at_Random: Awwwww……terrorist shitbag has a SAD! in the airport.

    Cry harder (literally) Trump trash!

    Where’s that laughing dude in the green shirt when he’s needed?

  51. 51.

    SFAW

    @Wapiti:

    Maybe they’ll claim they spent the last two weeks looking for child care.

    For their kids? Or for Diaper Donnie?

     

    [Yeah, yeah … por que no los dos?]

  56. 56.

    Tony Jay

    @Just Chuck:

    Oh certainly, getting Pettygrift yanked is Mission Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Epsilon, but there are a – lot – of Goopers in DC and all across the USA who come squarely under the shadow of that big old banhammer. What is it the Q-Cultists say? “As We go One, We go All”?

    That sounds fine. You should do that. Absolutely a good plan.

  61. 61.

    Eric S.

    @Damned_at_Random: This clip has been posted many times and I fully support more posting to make sure every one sees it. In fact, I believe this video clip needs to be preserved in the National Archives.

  64. 64.

    scav

    I do enjoy the sideways reminder to the still-potentially enabling congress-critters that there may be real consequences for them. Gave ’em a flash of the big stick.

  66. 66.

    Martin

    Just finished a LONG conversation with Ms Martin regarding the significance of the 14th am section 3 on there. First thing I picked up on when reading the letter on Twitter.

    Nancy wouldn’t have mentioned it if she didn’t recognize it as applicable. I’m sure a ton of other shit was raised that she didn’t bother listing.

    This really, really gives me hope. See my letter up in the sidebar why.

  67. 67.

    piratedan

    @zhena gogolia: she was Leslie fucking Stahl, here we are discussing a failed Coup d’état and what Nancy is going to do and she follows up with questions about The Squad…..

    if I had been in the interview, I would have brained her with a farm implement.

  68. 68.

    Jinchi

    @TaMara (HFG): Wow! Posts are coming fast and furious right now. I’m thrilled that they arrested the two zip-tie guys. Those two seem much more nefarious than Q-Shaman and some of the other goons. They were looking for blood.

  71. 71.

    Jinchi

    @SFAW: what’s Turley on about now?

    I’m guessing he’ll explain why Trump also shouldn’t be impeached this time around.

  72. 72.

    AWOL

    @Tony Jay: Wasn’t Helmut Kohl’s corrupt Christian Democratic Party in W. Germany hollowed-out after some awful cases of malfeasance?

     

    Of course, these guys need the Golden Dawn treatment, except 13 years is too short.

  75. 75.

    Raven

    @Punchy: Democrats are pushing this dangerously vague standard while objecting to their own remarks given new meaning from critics. Conservatives have pointed to Maxine Waters asking her supporters to confront Republicans in restaurants, while Ayanna Pressley insisted amidst the violent marches last year that “there needs to be unrest in the streets,” and Kamala Harris said “protesters should not let up” even as some of those marches turned violent. They can legitimately argue their rhetoric was not meant to be a call for violence, but this standard is filled with subjectivity.

  77. 77.

    SFAW

    @Jinchi:

    Got a little less lazy, googled it. Apparently he’s concerned impeachment now would damage the Constitution. Also that the Murderer-in-Chief’s comments before the insurrection was not impeachment-worthy.

    As zhena gogolia said: Fuck Him.

  78. 78.

    Captain C

    Deadbeat Donnie on this tape sounds like a third rate Queens mob associate wanna be who inherited a chop shop from his dad and is trying to threaten someone at the bar.

  84. 84.

    Kent

    Haven’t read all the comments here.  But can the 14th Amendment be interpreted as prohibiting TRUMP from holding the office of the president again?  Is the Presidency considered an office under the United States?

    No Person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

  86. 86.

    Martin

    @Jinchi: It needs to be all of them, tbh.

    But it’s looking more and more like Gosar, Mo Brooks, and Andy Biggs helped organize this with the intent of putting so much pressure on colleagues that they oppose the certification. I’d guess their staff as well.

    They seem to have been working with Trump and Scavino and some others.

    So my guess is they start with those three, but ultimately the other 140 or so went along. They’re on record. They signed onto the suit out of Texas.

  87. 87.

    Tony Jay

    @AWOL:

    According to the ever reliable Wikipedia it was a secret-funding scandal that blew up at the end of the 1990s and hammered the CDU’s reputation. OTOH, they weathered it okay, since it allowed Merkel and Co to rise to power and she’s been there a good looooonnng while.

    Meanwhile in shithole Britain a long delayed report into Russian interference in British politics casually mentions that the Tories are propped up by donations from dodgy Russian oligarchs and the British Media is resolutely uninterested. Wouldn’t want to inconvenience their dinner party friends with grubby little questions, not when there’s more than enough dirty money to go around.

  88. 88.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kent:

    INAL, but I would think based on the plain text of the amendment, that yes, the presidency should count

  92. 92.

    moonbat

    @prostratedragon: Can some one woman (or man for that matter) in the press corps point out just once that the reason they keep trying to unseat her from the Speaker’s chair is that she’s so damned effective — regardless of her age?

    I mean this chick stood in heels until after 3 a.m. the other morning to certify Biden’s victory AFTER having her life threatened, AFTER having to call the governor of neighboring states to ask them to send in the National Guard because glass was breaking around her and AFTER goons were actively searching for her through the Capitol. I think she’s up to the goddam job. Jeez.

  93. 93.

    Martin

    @Kent: Yes. It prohibits him from holding office again. But without a conviction for sedition or insurrection (which carry the same prohibition) I would expect him to challenge it.

    He should be convicted for those things, mind you.

  94. 94.

    NotMax

    *cough* Prescott Bush *cough*

    Whose company’s assets were seized during WW2 under the Trading With The Enemies act.

    (Yes, before his time in office but ought to have been enough to disqualify him from the ballot.)

  95. 95.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Does anyone know if State Constitutions, generally, have provisions like these?  I’m sure it varies.  But if so, there’s probably LOTS of State GOP Assemblypeople/Senators we should be looking into.

  96. 96.

    Kent

    @moonbat:

    Forgive me if this has already been answered, but could this be a shortcut to get rid of all the Trump “plants” in civil service jobs?

    Given all the other things we could currently be anxious about, it may seem small, but if these people could be nailed for violations of the 14th Amendment and booted in a timely fashion, it could help with Biden’s team being able to clean and put our house in order faster. Especially in the DoD which has had me worried for quite some time.

    I doubt there are very many Trump ‘plants’ burrowed into the Civil Service.  And the ones that are there can be sent to the basement to process FOIA requests for the rest of their careers.  They aren’t going be be any sort of obstructionist problem for Biden. Insubordination is still a firing offense, even in the civil service.

  97. 97.

    prostratedragon

    @moonbat:  Get no argument from me. But remember, these are folks who rely on the ability of people not to see what’s right in front of their eyes.

  99. 99.

    Kent

    @UncleEbeneezer:Does anyone know if State Constitutions, generally, have provisions like these?  I’m sure it varies.  But if so, there’s probably LOTS of State GOP Assemblypeople/Senators we should be looking into.

    Read it again. The 14th Amendment applies to state jobs as well.  It doesn’t matter what state constitutions say.  The 14th Amendment already bans seditionists from any state or Federal office.

  101. 101.

    Mary G

    Just my guess, but NANCY SMASH is pissed off like nobody but a mother of five could be. Voting to ask Pence to invoke the 25th gets the goobers on record. That’s why they’re all screaming for unity right now. A majority of the country wants Twitler out NOW, so if they vote no, they please the very angry minority, but piss off all the voters who are going to hear a lot of dirt about Twitler once he’s out of office through tell-all books, NY state prosecutions, Twitler’s own even crazier acting out, etc. Then they have to do it all over again on impeachment. She venerates the Capitol and those who encouraged its desecration must pay.

  104. 104.

    prostratedragon

    @UncleEbeneezer:  It would be up to each State’s laws to bar such people from State offices, however the language of the Amendment seems to say that they could be barred from moving into a federal position, because part of their oaths as State official was to defend and uphold the Constitution of the United States. (Usual IANAL disclaimer)

  106. 106.

    Kent

    Meanwhile just now….

    $600 is simply not enough when you have to choose between paying rent or putting food on the table. We need $2,000 stimulus checks.— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) January 11, 2021

  107. 107.

    Starfish

    I went to check in on insurgent land, and I noticed that Glenn Reynolds doesn’t have that many comments on his dying blog. Has this been the case for a while?

    Can Nancy Pelosi update her letter to say that Ross Douthat has to wear this column as a dunce’s cap for the next two years?

  108. 108.

    Fair Economist

    Nancy needs about 65 Republican Yeas to overcome the Sedition Caucus and expel members. She’s not getting that for every Rep who voted to overturn the legitimate results of the election, much as they deserve it. It could only be used pinpoint for those who the rest of the Republican caucus agree actively helped arrange the insurrection, like Brooks, Gosar, and Boebert.

  110. 110.

    RaflW

    @RSA: I mean, people routinely say “I’ll fight for you at city hall, or in D.C.” etc. We all know that means argue, cajole, debate, etc.

    What Mo Brooks says there is to specifically encourage people to die in this attack. Damn.

  112. 112.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @prostratedragon: Here is the Wikipedia on State Treason:

    In the United States, there are both federal and state laws prohibiting treason.[1] Treason is defined on the federal level in Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution as: “levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” Most state constitutions include similar definitions of treason, specifically limited to levying war against the state, “adhering to the enemies” of the state, or aiding the enemies of the state, and requiring two witnesses or a confession in open court.[2] Fewer than thirty people have ever been charged with treason under these laws.[3]

    Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state. They can therefore potentially commit treason against either, or against both.[4] At least fourteen people have been charged with treason against various states; at least six were convicted, five of whom were executed. Only one person has ever been executed for treason against the federal government: William Bruce Mumford, who was convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War. However, this was under martial law, not Article Three of the United States Constitution.[5]

  115. 115.

    Calouste

    @prostratedragon: The WV state representative who was at the insurrection has already resigned, and a number of other state reps that were there were from VA and PA, states where I’d think they could muster a vote to expel them. If they’re from Alabama, they probably get voted Speaker.

  118. 118.

    Wapiti

    @Fair Economist: No, they need 2/3 to be readmitted to polite society. If this was an insurrection*, and they are deemed* providing material support, they’re out until they get a permission slip to come back.

    * How this is determined; dunno.

  124. 124.

    HumboldtBlue

    @MagdaInBlack:

    He’s so good. Hell, I bet 60 percent of his fans are black folks. That was linked to Michael Steele and I got it from Joy Reid.

    And in general, am I the only one sensing that there has been a shift here? That we’re going to see very real and very effective backlash against this brazen sedition? It feels that way to me, that people are aghast at what they saw and are angry to respond? I see Nancy Pelosi going hard and high with the heater and I sense that pitching will continue.

    I know I’m in a relative bubble, but there’s a dead cop from direct action and a second from the fallout. The FBI isn’t going to let this go away. I don’t want to get my hopes up that some meaningful change can come from this, but I’m at least encouraged by the reaction.

  127. 127.

    Kent

    @UncleEbeneezer:@Kent: But the vote would be by the State Congress, correct?

    I don’t think there is any vote involved.  If they are convicted of sedition they are prohibited from any state or federal office.  I think the issue is convicting them.  Otherwise you don’t have standard or criteria to determine if someone is guilty.  But there isn’t any vote involved at the state or federal level.  The 2/3 vote is essentially to pardon them and give them their rights back. Not to convict them.

  130. 130.

    VeniceRiley

    Impeachment followed by a slow walk of the referral to the Senate is a genius move. It threatens DJT’s benefits and he doesn’t like losing benefits. It makes it less likely that MAGA choads will be organized on the 17th or the 20th. Punishment is the only thing Republicans understand.

  131. 131.

    Kent

    @Wapiti:

    @Fair Economist: No, they need 2/3 to be readmitted to polite society. If this was an insurrection*, and they are deemed* providing material support, they’re out until they get a permission slip to come back.

    * How this is determined; dunno.

    I’m guessing by being convicted in a court of law. There isn’t any other judicial process through which those claims could be vetted and the accused provided a defense.

  132. 132.

    Martin

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I would for all 8 senators:

    Cruz, Hawley, Scott, Hyde-Smith, Kennedy, Lummis, Tubberville, Marshall.

    It’s not necessarily wrong to oppose a slate of electors. In fact there are sometimes good reasons to, to draw attention to irregularities or voting rights issues.  But the objections here were not good-faith objections. It was made clear to all that the intent was to overturn the election, not to remedy certain defects. If so, they would have objected to go on the record, but still accepted the results. That’s what happened in 2005 when Jones and Boxer objected to Ohio’s electors. They stated up front they were not looking to overturn Bush’s victory, but wanted to draw attention to voting irregularities in order to get Congress to address them in future elections.

    This was much more like the 1861 certification when southern lawmakers objected to Lincoln’s election. Not because the election was bad but because they were you know, in the process of seceding.

    And Trump in some ways makes their situation worse because he fired off so many lawsuits challenging the results that there’s a  really hefty legal paper trail showing that these concerns were not ignored, they were considered and rejected all the way up to USSC. So there is an atypical volume of refutation to the claims. Their only actual objection was to support the ‘stop the steal’ movement,  to overturn the election, which would up being done by force. And good luck claiming you had no idea there would be violence when you took the vote standing in the broken glass from the violence.

  133. 133.

    Miss Bianca

    @Raven: You know…I think the fact that an actual, violent coup attempt followed on their words – unlike, say, what followed after those remarks of Harris’s, Pressley’s, et al. – might be a relevant factor in determining culpability.

  135. 135.

    RaflW

    @patrick II: Key resignations like Elaine Chao (oh, hey Hi Mitch’s wife!) were so that they would not have to make this choice, yes.

    And in the case of Elaine Chao, I think it was also to protect Mitch from having to answer questions about how his wife would vote on such a resolution.

    I’m joking, of course. Because only Democrats are asked to justify the behavior of the people they are in relationship with. I mean, look at Gini and Clarence Thomas. There’s such a bright line there, right??

  136. 136.

    dm

    @Starfish: I heard Douthat say the other day that he’d really gotten that one wrong.  I’ve never paid much attention to Chunky David Brooks, but I think the last couple of months have been a real education for him.

    He came out hoping for a twin Democratic victory in Georgia on Monday, saying it would be good for the Republican Party to see Trumpism repudiated.

  137. 137.

    Kent

    Correct me if I’m wrong about this.  But all of these treason trials are going to go in front of Federal Juries called from the majority black population of the District of Columbia and be tried at the United States District Court of the District of Columbia:  https://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/

    Federal juries are no laughing matter anywhere.  But these are going to be juries of local folks who watched out-of-town insurrectionists try to burn down their city.  At least half the judges are Black and Hispanic.

  139. 139.

    AWOL

    @Tony Jay: Thanks.

    If I recall, the tone of the NYT was to indicate that Germany would not have a true democracy if Kohl’s party was “bankrupted out of existence.”  Yes, just a short-term effect. Hell, I remember when Bush II fondled Merkel. The GOP is a human pig-sty.

    With your tales of Brexit/Little England, it makes me recall my first trip to London in 1989, surrounded by returning young football fans – drunken surburbanites with a trace of thuggery  -telling me I’d be killed in London. They trembled when turbulence hit . . .

  141. 141.

    boatboy_srq

    Wondering if Pelosi is thinking she can use A14Sec3 to dismiss and refuse to seat the Reprehensibles Representatives who voted against certification.

  145. 145.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I’m so tired of the “trying to draw the defense offsides” play. Hopefully the NFL’s competition committee will outlaw that soon.

  148. 148.

    Martin

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I argue that they don’t need to threaten violence. Here’s the statute:

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

    I would argue that by providing the motive to the attackers for the attack, at a point in time when the only remedy to a stated injustice to a core democratic principle (the kind of thing we ask people to fight for) was violence, that they were  part of the conspiracy to delay or stop the counting of the electoral votes.

    It’s not that the motive is ambiguous. They all were telling voters that the election was stolen, in clear terms, and all refused to acknowledge that Biden was president elect. They held this position through all court challenges, through casting of electoral votes, and certification. There is no reasonable basis for the claim, yet they told people that the election was being stolen with plenty of evidence being collected up until Jan 6 that people were willing to act violently (understandably, I would add) that the peaceful transfer of power was being undermined by a stolen election. By being individuals of authority that the public should trust, in effect, they were stealing the election by convincing millions of people their lie was actually true. And you cannot be shocked at the result.

    They knowingly provided 100% of the motive for the attack, they did so knowing it was a lie, and they stood back and let people act in an entirely predictable way.

  150. 150.

    Punchy

    @SFAW: His article on The Hill is about how “it’s bad for the Constitutionz” if the Dems impeach for 1st Amendy-protected speech.  As in….Trump didnt explictly scream polonium in a crowded reactor, so bothsides and Demsbad.  Same old shit for the d-bag.

  153. 153.

    Larry Rosansky

    I do believe she’s referring to the President, although the provision is certainly applicable to reps and senators.   But since Pence is unlikely to invoke the 25th, and McConnell is likely to prevent anything from happening until Chuck officially takes over, she could be setting up a way of preventing the Donald from holding office in the future through a simple majority vote of the House and Senate, which the D’s should be able to achieve.   SCOTUS may well defer to Congress — can’t see them wanting to get in the middle of this.

  157. 157.

    Calouste

    @AWOL: There was some financial scandal that ended up with a CDU state official, treasurer or something, missing and then being found dead in a bathtub in Switzerland a few days later.

  158. 158.

    Starfish

    @dm: That’s interesting. Occasionally, he writes reasonable things if I am constantly rolling my eyes because many of his articles seem to be written for the Catholics and no one else.

  159. 159.

    Starfish

    @boatboy_srq: AOC and Cori Bush came out in support of this on Twitter earlier today. I think the progressive part of the caucus is pushing her, and she is acknowledging their work.

  162. 162.

    AWOL

    @Calouste: Thanks. In the US, an almost-ignored subject in the the media, which was below mediocre even before “cable news” took off with Gulf “War” I and then, the craven bastards at Fox News.

  163. 163.

    MobiusKlein

    I suggest that the wording of Section 3, 14th Amendment is retroactive to the moment the Oath of Office was violated by insurrection.

    Any acts as President are void, retroactive, from the beginning of the plot to overthrow the election results.   Pardons, vetos, executive orders, medals of freedom.

    All wiped away from the moment Trump forfeited his office  by rebellion.

  164. 164.

    Kent

    Hitting him where it REALLY hurts

    The PGA of America will strip Donald Trump of the 2022 PGA Championship, which is scheduled to be held at Trump National Bedminster golf club in New Jersey.

    In a blistering column that says the golf world must sever all ties with Trump, Golfweek’s Eamon Lynch said the PGA has been debating for two years the need to move the major championship and, once Trump is out of office, will announce the tournament will be played elsewhere:

    No one is going to be golfing at his courses or staying at his hotels anymore.  Even MAGA types will be afraid of being photographed at those places.

  165. 165.

    HumboldtBlue

    @SFAW:

    The best part of that was it was real. That’s seeing a jazz soloist go off 22 feet away on stage. He’s good.

    Oh, and fuck the Steelers.

  167. 167.

    Steeplejack

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    What is wrong with her whole affect? Every one of her interviews that I’ve seen lately, she seems like she’s pissed off that the world isn’t going the way she wants it to and she’s blaming the interviewee personally.

    Maybe that’s her idea of tough questioning.

  168. 168.

    Feathers

    I think she’s giving Pence 24 hours on using the 25th to shut people up who say the 25th would be a better solution than impeachment. Representatives and Senators can’t argue that they aren’t voting for impeachment because they want Pence to invoke the 25th. Nancy smart.

  169. 169.

    Calouste

     

    @boatboy_srq: No need to do anything for Pelosi if Reps are convicted in the courts of sedition, the 14th will automatically take effect AFAIU. Although part of it I’m sure also has to do with building up societal pressure, like companies that are no longer donating to Reps that voted against certification, newspapers calling for their resignation, etc. Which is also why there will be more votes on impeachment and stuff, get these folks on the record that they are hard core seditionists, so that it’s easier for polite society to shun them. Good luck running in a district if no one at the country club wants to donate to you anymore.

  171. 171.

    TriassicSands

    Hardball — Speaker Pelosi should offer Pence a choice: remove Trump or face impeachment for aiding and abetting sedition. And, for good measure, she should insist they discuss it in a small room with no one else present. If he faced the sinful prospect of being alone in a room with a woman, a sin obviously punishable by eternity in Hell, he’d remove Trump in a heartbeat.

    If they charge Boebert, she will have to be prosecuted as a child — she’s so clearly an immature little fifteen-year-old. Of course, that also means she can’t be in Congress anyway since being an adult is a requirement. I look forward to her next fundraising video where she explains she’ll not only have her precious Glock at her trial, but she intends to have an assault rifle, too. SECOND AMENDMENT!!!

    On the other hand, she may get off on the basis of mental disability — her IQ can’t be much over 75.

    On the other, other hand her ITIARHSQ (I Think I Am Really Hot Shit Quotient) must be about a billion.

    Where do these people come from¹?

    ¹I used to live in Colorado, so I know what’s going on in places like Rifle and Silt. It’s no surprise she got elected.

  173. 173.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Steeplejack: The question about her being an obstructionist was ridiculous. Republicans in the Senate couldn’t agree among themselves on a Covid relief bill. Had nothing to do with the House’s large bill.

  175. 175.

    Lyrebird

    @CaseyL:

    Yes yes yes yes yes to Nancy SMASH!

    And over in the Senate, I hope some people seriously wake up and censure or eject Hawley and Cruz.  The one is wailing and screaming about being compared to Goebbels while he acts just like Goebbels.  The other one I am not kidding said Dems want to “crush” conservatives 

    …WHEN THE MAN HIS RIOTERS BLUDGEONED IS sfaik NOT YET EVEN BURIED.

    Sorry for yelling.  The word “shameless” gave up several years ago, what can I call these people?

     

    ETA: the twitter link is to someone sane who retweeted Cruz, h/t Popehat

  176. 176.

    jl

    @Jinchi: “…the ruling would be that you gotta go the streets and be as violent as Antifa and BLM. ”

    That bit about Antifa might get Gohmert off the hook, if you take him literally. He might get off with incitement to disorderly conduct, rather than insurrection. But if Gohmert really thinks Antifa has ever plotted to invade a legislature and overturn an election, then maybe not.

  180. 180.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Feathers: I think the 25th is the wrong answer here. Trump isn’t incapacitated. He’s just a hideous person. But the excuse here is that we need to use the 25th because Trump is “unhinged”. This is the white criminal defense writ large: white people who commit heinous crimes are always crazy.

  182. 182.

    Calouste

    @AWOL: Seems like I mixed up my scandal (easy mistake to make when conservative politicians are involved, just too many to keep track of).

    The guy found dead in the bathtub was recently defeated Minister-President of Schleswig-Holstein Uwe Barschel. That happened in 1987.

    What brought Helmut Kohl down was were some millions of cash donation, secret bank accounts and the like in 1999: CDU donations scandal – Wikipedia

  183. 183.

    Origuy

    I had a horrible idea; suppose the reason that some of the Republicans holed up in the basement of Congress weren’t wearing masks so that if the terrorists did break in, they would know who was on their side? All the Democrats would have been wearing them.

  184. 184.

    Starfish

    @TriassicSands: This type of setting the bar so low that you have to dig to get to it is what had everyone underestimating Boebert while she was busy getting elected. She understands the imagery she is trying to create, and it works in her favor with people who do not think deeply about it. She did a photo op of herself cleaning graffiti on the day when she was definitely with the insurrection.

  185. 185.

    Chetan Murthy

    @AWOL: Well, as bad as it was, there was (is) a gay guy a year behind me in my high school.  He lives in SF now and is out.  I still marvel that he survived, and cannot imagine his childhood there.  And another (very, very dear) gay friend who grew up in a suburb of Houston.  Not to mention the Black people in my town, who had to put up with I-cannot-imagine-what, but also with racism from me, b/c yeah, I was trying to “fit in”.  I’ve searched for the name of the one Black person I remember from high school (again, b/c I was “trying to fit in”, I had only white friends, sigh) so I can apologize, but was unable to find her.

    Once this is all over, I might try again, more thoroughly (though yeah, I wouldn’t set foot in my hometown).

    Lots of people had it much, much worse.

  186. 186.

    boatboy_srq

    @Calouste: If we leave it with those resources we’re still stuck with the current House for this year and next. That’s hardly one for the win column in this context.

  187. 187.

    Kent

    @dmsilev:

    Pence either doesn’t want to invoke the 25th or can’t get the majority support of the Cabinet that he would need. From the outside, we can’t tell which, and I’m not sure it matters either way. Point being, passing a resolution calling on him to use the 25th is vanishingly unlikely to do anything. It takes (or wastes, depending on your views) a day.

    I guess, given what we know of the Senate’s schedule, taking that day doesn’t make any real difference in terms of ‘what will get Trump out of office the fastest’. Either he gets 25’d or he gets termed out on the 20th.

    My guess is that he is keeping it in his back pocket to use as a veto should Trump step out of line.  Try to bomb Iran or declare martial law?  BAM…25th Amendment and Pence takes over.   Spend the next week stewing in your quarters watching Fox or going golfing?   Fine, we’ll keep it in our back pocket.

  190. 190.

    Calouste

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I though it was more like a cheap knock-off of 1-800-GotJunk, i.e. the only place things get moved to is the landfill. (Although knowing college students, any still half-usable stuff will end up in dorms/frat houses instead.)

  191. 191.

    NotMax

    @AWOL

    Was there in 1961 between flights at some godawful time of day and that was more than enough of a taste of the place.

    ;)

  192. 192.

    Chetan Murthy

    @boatboy_srq: I understand your sentiment and share it.  Sadly, since the point of masks is mostly for the (unknowingly) infected to not spread their contagion, it won’t work that way.  Instead, they’ll infect those who are masking.  Sadly.

  193. 193.

    Ken

    @Kent: No one is going to be golfing at his courses or staying at his hotels anymore. Even MAGA types will be afraid of being photographed at those places.

    Troll them by parking an unmarked white van out front, with two men in dark suits and sunglasses, pointing a couple of cameras with telephoto lenses at the building entrance.  Bonus points for running a wifi tagged “FBI SURVEILLANCE” in the van.

    Maybe Borat could do it for his next movie.

  194. 194.

    HumboldtBlue

    The Milwaukee Statesman-Journal minces no words about Wisconsin’s WNP (White Nationalist Party, formerly known as the GOP) congressional caucus.

    Get rid of them.

     

    @Ken:

    Bonus points for running a wifi tagged “FBI SURVEILLANCE” in the van.

    Maybe Borat could do it for his next movie.

    Wouldn’t that be glorious?

  195. 195.

    Alison Rose

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Completely agree that society as a whole tends to label dangerous white men as “crazy” in order to curry sympathy for them. For me though, in this case, I interpret “incapacitated” as “willing to say and do whatever the hell he has to in order to hang onto power” and we know there is no line he won’t cross. So he’s not “crazy” but he’s certainly dangerous, and to me, that makes him “incapacitated.” But I’m no Constitutional expert, so…

  196. 196.

    Calouste

    @boatboy_srq: It’s not like the minority party in the House has a lot of power, and a few convictions close to the 2022 elections could be useful. Also, having GOP Reps with active court cases for sedition would make for …interesting… primaries.

  198. 198.

    jl

    @Kent: Saw a news blurb that Pence is putting out word that he is open to 25th action, in hope that will put some controls on Trump. Report didn’t mention the source of the report, so I have no idea if it’s true. It sounds very weak and BSy to me, so good chance Pence would go for that kind of crap. But it it’s true, he’s probably  bluffing, since no evidence enough of cabinet would support him (which is what is needed for Trump’s removal to happen quickly, IIRC).

    BTW, I looked around for how it’s determined that someone has engaged in rebellion or insurrection, and didn’t find anything. Any BJ lawyers know.

    I don’t think discussing it is a problem. How the House decides to proceed if it thinks some Congresscrooks did may or may not be a problem. We’ll have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

  199. 199.

    Bill Arnold

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Just super weird that Turley always has concerns but comes down on the Republican side.

    Turley needs to experience fear.
    Is he not aware that right wingers regularly talk about mass killings of their ideological enemies? Is he not aware that there would be retaliation? Is he not aware that D.J.Trump could attempt to launch nuclear weapons and might succeed?
    Does he understand that he’s loathed by millions?

  200. 200.

    Lyrebird

    @Origuy: Can understand the idea, but having watched the video of them laughing at Rep. Rochester as she offered them masks, I don’t think that was their main reason.

    Brazen disregard for others’ lives.

  202. 202.

    RaflW

    @Martin:

    They knowingly provided 100% of the motive for the attack, they did so knowing it was a lie, and they stood back and let people act in an entirely predictable way.

    Is there such a thing as a stochastic coup attempt? Because this sorta sounds like one.

  203. 203.

    Lyrebird

    @Chetan Murthy:

    OT but related to something you said yesterday or the day before… did you see Preet Bharara’s tweet about names getting mispronounced?

    @PreetBharara

    ·
    Oct 17, 2020

    My given name is Preetinder Bharara. Mouthful. It’s been mispronounced my whole life. But I can tell the goddamn difference between innocent mistake (almost always) and racist bullshit.

    I am so happy Perdue lost for so many reasons!

    I am not Californian, so I expect the Veep Elect will have many devoted followers in the northeast who will not pronounce her name very accurately but who will back her agenda and then some.  But so so so glad Ossoff with Warnock WON!

  204. 204.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Martin: According to Stahl, Pelosi should have compromised by agreeing with Republicans that no second Covid relief bill was fine.

  205. 205.

    TriassicSands

    @Suzanne:

    There was a time when “Bloody Billy” was the worst the GOP had to offer. Then, along came McConnell, Cruz, Trump, etc. to muddy the waters. He was instrumental in helping Palin get the VP nomination and there is a straight line from Palin to Trump.

    I favor immediate impeachment, but I’m also aware that Kristol is the kind of scum who would see it as win-win if Democrats impeached Trump and Biden was crippled or damaged by any resulting difficulties.

    Why should Romney, Murkowski, and Toomey want to protect their Trumpy colleagues from having to vote on a removal that a large majority of the country now favors? — W. Kristol

    The short answer is that Republicans don’t care what the majority of Americans favors. Romney is the only one with any real integrity.

    Murkowski is among the most cowardly of Republicans. Unlike most of them, she is clearly bothered by Trump’s actions, but she never manages to do anything meaningful about it. She’s a partner with Susan Collins in the “Super Concerned Faction.” After apparently uttering words about having an uncertain future as a Republican, when questioned, she was emphatic about not becoming a Democrat.

    Toomey is going to retire, so maybe he’ll budge, but the history of Trump and retiring Republicans is not one that involves courage and integrity.

    Mitch undoubtedly despises Trump, but he’s very comfortable voting with his fellow Republicans. According to Progressive Punch, Romney has a worse voting record than seditionist Ted Cruz. Maybe, if he was certain that Trump would be convicted, he’d be more interested in acting, but who could blame him for not wanting to once again be the lone Republican to vote to convict.

  206. 206.

    Damned_at_Random

    Stillers look like they got talked to at halftime.  If they get their shit together, I could be in for another cardiac stress test at the end of the 4th quarter.

  207. 207.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Martin: Boebert’s alerts in this case were pretty innocuous. She announced they were all in the Chamber at one point, which might be an issue. And then she said that Pelosi had been evacuated out and no longer was in there. A lot of people point at the 2nd one.

    But I think the public reporting at that point was “Pelosi is safe in an undisclosed location” which is similar to what Boebeet was saying.

    The timing on all of this needs to be checked, etc.

  211. 211.

    Chetan Murthy

    @MisterForkbeard: With respect, anybody -in- the group that is under threat, has no business tweeting jack-shit.  Not nuthin’.  I know that public news sources are often implored to not publish various facts about in-progress “situations”, specifically in order to not give perps useful information.  That Boebert published information contemporaneously with public sources [if that’s what she did] proves nothing.

    The role of people under threat is to do what is needed to get themselves and all their group out of danger.  If she can’t understand that, she’s unqualified to be a Rep, not to mention carry a gun.

    Sorry if I’m coming across a little angry in my writing: I don’t mean ot against you, I really don’t.

  212. 212.

    TriassicSands

    @Martin:

    That was why I mentioned the possibility of a trial for her. She’s a clown, but a dangerous clown who should be expelled from Congress. Of course, a case can be made for some 147 expulsions, but my guess is that the only people in jeopardy of expulsion are any who end up having charges filed against them.

    I can’t see Hawley or Cruz getting expelled from the Senate and the case against them seems stronger than that against the idiots who went along with them — like Coach Tuberville, who I’m quite sure will have a successful career as a mindless fool. Another in a long line of terrible senators from Alabama.

  213. 213.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Alison Rose: Gosh, I seem to remember another Dem Presidential candidate with a name that was a little tricky to pronounce, and *yet* somehow most people got over it.  there’s some difference between that guy (Mayor Pete, stalwart mensch, just to be clear) and Sen. Harris.  Maybe a couple of things.  Hard to put my finger on it.

  214. 214.

    NotMax

    @zhena gogolia

    Even George effin’ Will (WaPo link).

    The Trump-Hawley-Cruz insurrection against constitutional government will be an indelible stain on the nation. They, however, will not be so permanent. In 14 days, one of them will be removed from office by the constitutional processes he neither fathoms nor favors. It will take longer to scrub the other two from public life. Until that hygienic outcome is accomplished, from this day forward, everything they say or do or advocate should be disregarded as patent attempts to distract attention from the lurid fact of what they have become. Each will wear a scarlet “S” as a seditionist. Source

  215. 215.

    TriassicSands

    @Lyrebird:

    Supercomputers have determined that there are no fewer than an infinite number of reasons why it is good that Perdue lost. Same for Loeffler.

  217. 217.

    Lyrebird

    @Alison Rose: You’re right, of course, but I am just old enough to remember Paul Tsongas’ campaign ads that took the opposite tack.  All these people clobbering his name.  Just sweet.  He was such a good man.

    There are parts of New England where Kamma-ler may be one of the new versions, and I think Mass. voted for her and Biden with the highest rates in the country.

  219. 219.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Chetan Murthy: I mean, I agree. It was stupid and not helpful. She certainly wasn’t tweeting about Pelosi from an earnest desire that American know the Speaker was safe.

    But it’s a far cry from that to “knowingly assisting the seditionists”, and I don’t think she’ll get tagged for it unless more comes out. I’m sure she had a number of communications with Q rioters and so on, so if they can look at her communications they’ll probably nail her with something.

  220. 220.

    dmsilev

    @Alison Rose: I don’t see the issue. Everyone knows how to pronounce ‘Madam Vice President.’

    Somewhat more seriously, deliberately pretending not to know how a name is pronounced is profoundly disrespectful, and it’s entirely unsurprising to see that happen to Harris.

  224. 224.

    pat

    @Just Some Fuckhead

    I always look forward to 60 minutes on Sunday night.  I was shocked by Stahl’s assertion that the Democrats were responsible for the bill not being passed.  I think Nancy must have been taken off guard and did not want to start a conflict, or she might have said  Wait a minute, that is not what happened.

    Not sure I can watch 60 minutes again.  Sad.

  226. 226.

    Kent

    @Ken:

    Troll them by parking an unmarked white van out front, with two men in dark suits and sunglasses, pointing a couple of cameras with telephoto lenses at the building entrance.  Bonus points for running a wifi tagged “FBI SURVEILLANCE” in the van.

    Maybe Borat could do it for his next movie.

    No shit.  He’s done more to set his “brand” on fire this week than in 4 year of presidency.  Nice going away president he gave himself.  He could have just spent the last 2 months taking a nice little victory lap and retired to a life of golfing and MAGA adoration. But no, he had to light it all on fire.  Scorched earth tactics on his own brand.

  229. 229.

    dnfree

    @SiubhanDuinne: I can answer the Leslie Stahl eye question because the same thing happens to me from time to time. Sometimes a blood vessel just bursts for an unknown reason. There isn’t really anything to do about it except assure people it’s okay when they ask “What the hell happened to your eye???”

  232. 232.

    Steeplejack

    I’ve got information overload. I can’t keep up with the threads here, much less the fire hose of stuff from the other sources I usually scan. Someone earlier, maybe even in this thread, mentioned that the Georgia election was last Tuesday, and I was stunned. It already feels like it was weeks ago. Yeesh.

    Personal update: My brother the ophthalmologist is getting his second COVID vaccination tomorrow, which is good, especially since one of his main techs, whom he worked with all day last week, tested positive, and his minor surgery that was scheduled for tomorrow (with him as patient) was canceled because that physician tested positive. So the coronavirus is extending its tendrils into his large HMO. He is off work this week, but he has still been seeing 20-plus patients a day. He’s riding it out until he retires in April.

  234. 234.

    dnfree

    @pat: Judy Woodruff on PBS Newshour has been doing the same thing to Nancy Pelosi for months now. She’ll ask three different ways why Pelosi isn’t compromising with McConnell. It is time for both Judy and Leslie to retire.

  238. 238.

    Gin & Tonic

    I know it’s easy to be cynical about CNN, but they just ran an hour-long recap of Wednesday’s events entitled “The Trump Insurrection.” Jake Tapper’s show this morning explicitly and repeatedly called it a “coup attempt.” They are not mincing words.

  240. 240.

    the pollyanna from hell

    @RaflW: I used “stochastic” in a thread below, but there are different ways to approach that idea. For example, the mob boss orders are delivered by implication and innuendo, which provides legal cover, but leaves the troops without a clear plan. That’s part of what saved us.

  242. 242.

    Lyrebird

    @TriassicSands:

    Supercomputers have determined that there are no fewer than an infinite number of reasons why it is good that Perdue lost. Same for Loeffler.

    :-)    So good to know!   (-:

  245. 245.

    Steeplejack

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I think they’re going through the motions with 25A to remove it as an excuse to not deal with impeachment. And even that might be (in the short term) a move to get Republicans on the record as still defending Trump.

  247. 247.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Gin & Tonic:

    It hasn’t been that long since the Capitol Insurrection, so that makes sense. I was at work the day it happened and didn’t get to see it in real time. If anything, it’s a nice summary of what’s already known

  248. 248.

    TheflipPsyd

    @Gin & Tonic:  I agree  that CNN is doing a good job actually not both sides-ing and describing things without pulling punches. But I didn’t really find the program added anything new. I can’t  pinpoint why but I was disappointed in the program. On a different  note  I ended up missing the Pelosi interview but did see the Angus King one. I’ve  always liked him but didn’t  know much about him. He had some interesting  things to say. Wondering  what are your thoughts

  249. 249.

    dmsilev

    So sad, and as we all know, to Trump a contract is a sacred bond…

    “The PGA of America Board of Directors voted tonight to exercise the right to terminate the agreement to play the 2022 PGA Championship at Trump Bedminster.” — Jim Richerson, PGA of America President
    — PGA of America (@PGA) January 11, 2021

    Trump Org said it’s “incredibly disappointed… This is a breach of a binding contract and they have no right to terminate the agreement. As an organization we have invested many, many millions of dollars in the 2022 PGA Championship at Trump National Golf Club, Bedminster.”
    — Kara Scannell (@KaraScannell) January 11, 2021

  250. 250.

    Ken

    @Lyrebird: My given name is Preetinder Bharara. Mouthful. It’s been mispronounced my whole life.

    If I concentrate, I can hear the difference between the aspirated (“bh”) and unaspirated (“b”) consonants.  But my attempts to reproduce them are, well, pathetic.  So I hope he would cut some slack for that.

    It gives me added sympathy for non-English speakers trying to handle our two “th” sounds, which are apparently pretty rare world-wide.

  253. 253.

    Damned_at_Random

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Just take a deep breath. I’ve been a Steeler fan for 50+ years and they are always harder on their fans than they are on their opponents. Tonight they will break my heart. Again

  254. 254.

    NotMax

    @dmsilev

    As an organization we have invested many, many millions of dollars in the 2022 PGA Championship at Trump National Golf Club, Bedminster.
    — Kara Scannell
    .

    Pull the other one, dearie.

  255. 255.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Ken:

    If I concentrate, I can hear the difference between the aspirated (“bh”) and unaspirated (“b”) consonants.  But my attempts to reproduce them are, well, pathetic.  So I hope he would cut some slack for that.

    I think you can rest assured, that people from other countries don’t expect you to pronounce their names precisely.  I mean, my given name has a diphthong that just doesn’t exist in American English.  So even my two younger sisters can’t pronounce it; my mom can, of course.  I would expect that most people just wish that Americans would pronounce their name the way that (e.g.) Preet pronounces it, when he’s using his American voice.  Which …. well, typically that’s how we talk all the time, so even we lose our “back in the homeland” voice eventually.  I mean, I can’t speak Kannadiga (not since I was a kid) even though it was my mother tongue.  I sure don’t expect Americans to pronounce my name the way people in India would: I barely can.

    I think I can assure you that the things that rankle, are the surely-intentional mispronunciations.  And honestly, the way to solve the problem is: whenever somebody’s name seems hard-to-pronounce, just ask them how they would like their name to be pronounced: people will invariably tell you, and be grateful for your having asked.  I do it invariably, and (in The Before Time) I used to meet lots of foreign tech folks.  It’s not hard.

  258. 258.

    catclub

    @Lyrebird: I would argue that there are only a finite number of reasons

    for any one human to vote, and there are a finite number of voters in th election ( also eligible on earth)  so a finite number of reasons.

  259. 259.

    ballerat

    Tomorrow? Why the fuck tomorrow? And not vote on it til Wednesday?

    Do these people not work late or on weekends when there is a crisis? Shit, I’ve had employers who had us do all-nighters just to meet a deadline.

    Is insurrection not enough of an emergency?

  261. 261.

    Alison Rose

    @dmsilev: Yeah, reminds me of conservatives pretending like “Sotomayor” with the emphasis in the right place was just IMPOSSIBLE HOW CAN YOU EXPECT MY WASP TONGUE TO MAKE SUCH A FOREIGN SOUND??????

    Fuckers.

  263. 263.

    MisterForkbeard

    @ballerat: There are evidently rules on when the House can re-open after adjourning.

    I think they don’t want to vote on Impeachment until there’s a definitive answer on the 25th, since the 25th will actually remove Trump from office and Impeachment won’t unless McConnell breaks his own rules to re-open the Senate and vote on Impeachment.

  264. 264.

    NotMax

    @MisterForkbeard

    “We scooped millions from the federal till for ‘anticipated necessary security upgrades'” is probably more like it.

    None of which, curiously, have seen a spade of earth turned, I’d wager.

  267. 267.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Damned_at_Random:

    I’ve been a Steeler fan for 50+ years and they are always harder on their fans than they are on their opponents. Tonight they will break my heart. Again.

    Sweet Jesus beating Jack Ham with a switch while bent over a mule tended by Terry Bradshaw tied to the tails of LC Greenwood Joe Green and Frenchy Fuqua.

    Fuck the Steelers.

  270. 270.

    NotMax

    @ballerat

    All it takes is one objector to reconvening before the already set and published date.

    And that person was House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy.

  272. 272.

    Martin

    So, it’s looking like Parler is really fucked.

    Apparently they got dumped by Twilio many hours before AWS turned them off, and they were using Twilio for login verification (some of you can already see where this is going). This let them create accounts without email verification or 2FA (both now disabled) and got them behind the login box so the could see which users were admin. And because email verification was now turned off, they could just hit the password reset button and set a new password. And from that admin, create a new admin account.

    Long story short, they’re dumping the parler database including the credentials to create an account (SS#, drivers license photos, etc.), including deleted content which admins can see in order to restore, private messages, etc. Turns out a lot of it got deleted after the 6th.

    There’s about zero chance the FBI doesn’t already have that, but open source reporting is always more interesting.

  281. 281.

    ballerat

    @Jinchi: I’m pretty sure the DoJ is going to need something more damning and specific than “we’re planning something big”.

    Are any of these guys as stupid as Gohmert? It’d be nice if one of them took notes of their criminal fucking conspiracy.

  286. 286.

    Mallard Filmore

    @TriassicSands:

     

    I can’t see Hawley or Cruz getting expelled from the Senate and the case against them seems stronger than that against the idiots who went along with them

    The investigations have not started yet. Need to wait a few months.

  288. 288.

    MobiusKlein

    @Martin: Dumping SSN  / DL info from db?
    it’s a complete fail if that data was not encrypted in their DBs,  their DBs were not behind a VPN / Firewall, and admin access behind VPNs too.

    It’s hard to believe they are that stupid. Like having no infosec people at all.

  289. 289.

    Mary G

    Just wanted to see this again:

    Breaking: PGA will be cancelling all tournaments and instituting a lifetime ban of ever holding events at Trump Courses including stripping Trump of hosting the 2022 PGA Championship, insider says. A sport governing body doing more than Congress.— Alan Resists ? (@angry__saint) January 10, 2021

  291. 291.

    Martin

    @RaflW: I suspect it’s how the US conducts coups. You kind of funnel the population in the direction you want them to go, feed them disinformation, fire them up, and then light a match.

    I wonder if General Flynn was any good at that.

  294. 294.

    Kent

    @MobiusKlein:

    @Martin: Dumping SSN  / DL info from db?
    it’s a complete fail if that data was not encrypted in their DBs,  their DBs were not behind a VPN / Firewall, and admin access behind VPNs too.

    It’s hard to believe they are that stupid. Like having no infosec people at all.

    What does this mean in plain language?  That hackers are getting all the info on parler users and making it all public?

  296. 296.

    MobiusKlein

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Ah, I probably misread Martin’s comment

    Long story short, they’re dumping the parler database including the credentials to create an account (SS#, drivers license photos, etc.),

    Not clear to me what ‘dumping the Parler database’ entails here. I took worst case scenario, but would love to hear more

  298. 298.

    Calouste

    @MobiusKlein: Keep in mind that these are people that wear their work badge around their neck when rioting. No encryption of PII is par for the course. It was probably the backup business plan.

  301. 301.

    burnspbesq

    As bad as that performance by the Steelers was, I’m not sure they laid a bigger egg than Leeds United.

  302. 302.

    RaflW

    @Mary G: I suspect that Trump may never be allowed in Scotland again. That would be delish.

    And if that rumpled twerp at No. 10 tried to give him a pass, the Scots who are already furious about Brexit would be fun to watch.

  304. 304.

    Martin

    @MobiusKlein: The challenge with encryption is there’s always  a side that is decrypted, and if you provide an interface to that, well, you’ve just defeated the encryption. That’s  the side they’re pulling it from. They don’t have passwords where you never see it in plaintext, but looks like they have just about everything else. About 30TB worth? Everything from Sunday until Thurs, by the look of it. All video, photos, DMs. They soft delete, so all of that too.

    I just read something by D’nish. Something by Roger Stone. Dan Bongino. Some weird christian garbage. Lots of Q jibberish in DMs. This is a dump from last sunday. Good lord are these a  bunch of whiny bitches. They think everyone hates them and is out to get them. Boy, just wait until Thursday, folks.

  305. 305.

    Jean

    @Martin: What happens on Thursday?  I can’t keep up anymore.  And how many additional seditious riots are predicted–one on the 17th, the 19th, and the 20th?  Can’t the 17th be the last stand–just overwhelm all of them?

  306. 306.

    Steeplejack

    Interesting pair of pictures, and some speculation, in this thread:

    A tie-in between Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the insurrection in the United States. Serhiy Dybynyn is an infowarrior for Inter TV, nominally owned by fugitive oligarch Firtash but beneficially owned by Putin pal Medvedchuk. Donetsk airport (left) was destroyed by RU forces.
    pic.twitter.com/m7ST7vMEl9

    — Michael MacKay (@mhmck) January 9, 2021

  307. 307.

    Martin

    @Calouste: Yeah, more accurate to say they’re scraping the database by having it render every node (every comment, video, dm, etc.) and then grabbing it. That’s how they get it decrypted. And like most systems the ability to restore a node is done by loading the node by an admin. It doesn’t capture edits, but that probably doesn’t matter.

    The process of doing this has really evolved. For the nerds, they then rolled a docker image that is designed for data archiving that talks to a master which keeps track of what data has been archived, but copies the data to archive locally. So they could put the image out for anyone to use, and each person who fired one up  would start archiving the next bit to their local system. The more people, the faster it goes, so it was a race until the shutdown.

    Ah, Lin Wood warns me

    Next step for Pelosi will be to erase term “God” & change it to “Xi Jinping.”

    I’d choose ‘Winnie the Pooh’, but ok.

  308. 308.

    RaflW

    Hah!

    @arawnsley
    I’d be curious to know how many staff Parler ever had because as best I can tell it was like four dudes and a sleepy basset hound named ‘Rufus.’
    11:30 PM · Jan 10, 2021

    Replying to @arawnsley
    From security to moderating for child exploitation material to enforcing the minimal content red lines *they did have,* that place was just a bunch of raccoons in a trench coat. The least effort.

  310. 310.

    dmsilev

    @Martin: You should clarify that your ‘they’ refers to two separate groups: the admins of Parler and some group of external hackers who gained access and are busily downloading as much of the database as possible before midnight.

  312. 312.

    Subsole

    @HumboldtBlue: This.

    These people are basically domestic al qaeda now. They are utterly loathed. Those images of the capitol being stormed are the new 9/11 photos.

    I mean, even the media boobles I’ve seen are offended and want their heads to roll.

    That should really, really worry the republicans, because it is about the only thing propping their ass up with independents.

  313. 313.

    counterfactual

    @Martin: As I’m reading brief notes on Ars Technica, this is the stoner-in-mom’s-basement level “hacker.” The nation-state cyber warrior and professional criminal gangs have probably been through this already. The FBI probably has a direct copy acquired under subpoena.

  316. 316.

    Kent

    Republicans who say we can't impeach a president 10 days before an inauguration had no trouble confirming a Supreme Court justice 8 days before an election.— Robert Reich (@RBReich) January 9, 2021

  318. 318.

    Kent

    @counterfactual:@Martin: As I’m reading brief notes on Ars Technica, this is the stoner-in-mom’s-basement level “hacker.” The nation-state cyber warrior and professional criminal gangs have probably been through this already. The FBI probably has a direct copy acquired under subpoena.

    If it was all hosted on Amazon then certainly they have pristine backups ready to hand over to the FBI.  Even if users were doing last minute deletes.  At least I would assume, not being of the techie sort myself.

    But that wouldn’t necessarily help hackers who want to dox traitors and root them out in public.

  319. 319.

    MobiusKlein

    @Martin:

    The challenge with encryption is there’s always a side that is decrypted, and if you provide an interface to that, well, you’ve just defeated the encryption.

    Not exactly – many sensitive data items can be stored with a 1 way hash function.
    Also ‘an admin interface’ does not mean that any admin will be able to run decryption on any arbitrary element.

    The well known Silicon Valley company I work for has safeguards that prevent such access except from well defined environments.

  321. 321.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Steeplejack: She’s been busy, I’m not sure it’s all surgery though.  What most folk don’t realize is nursing is pretty specialized, you can’t take a surgical nurse and plop them into ICU.  They might have had exposure to that area during their clinicals in nursing school, but in the kid’s case, that was 4 years ago.

  322. 322.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Martin: Hooooly shit. That’s a complete own. And fantastic for law enforcement purposes.

    Hopefully the DMs of various Trump allies and admin people are in there.

  323. 323.

    Jay

    @Steeplejack:

    Gin and Tonic, ( I think) noted that Serhiy Dybynyn is wanted by the current version of the DPR, and is probably just a “Combat photographer/adrenalin junkie” who has found employment away from Putin, the GRU and the DPR.

  324. 324.

    Martin

    @dmsilev: So, everything is being pulled via the admin interface, so ‘they’ means both. But it also means it bypasses whatever data encryption they have which is handy.

  325. 325.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Martin: Martin, do you have a link to this? I can’t find anything about it anywhere online, but I’d love to confirm it.

  326. 326.

    Jay

    Napalm? Yep, napalm.Lonnie Coffman, 70, an Alabama grandfather drove to Washington to attend Trump’s “Save America Rally” in a pickup packed with an assault rifle, three handguns and 11 Mason jars filled with homemade napalm, according to court filings. https://t.co/G9odUi3ACr— Nick Turse (@nickturse) January 11, 2021

  327. 327.

    Calouste

    @MobiusKlein: That would require competence, but the right-extremist organizations hire for loyalty, not for competence. Or probably  nepotism/cronyism before even loyalty.

  329. 329.

    Martin

    @counterfactual: Yeah, agreed. This qualifies as ‘hacking’ only in the sense of people poking in places they shouldn’t poke and pushing buttons they shouldn’t push.

    But sometimes curiosity and a minimal amount of technical knowledge is enough.

  330. 330.

    ballerat

    @HumboldtBlue: [drums fingers impatiently while every seditious republican congress-hole and fox news tries to reframe armed insurrection as no biggie and antifa done it if it is] Well… fuck.

  333. 333.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Jay: Fuck, this guy’s as dark as me!  He fucking thinks they’ll let him live if they actually succeed?  Idiot.

  334. 334.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Martin: It’s almost social engineering. Relies on the same idea: not doing anything that qualifies as “hacking” but instead understanding how the technical bits fit together and exploiting weaknesses.

    No code (except for finding the admins, maybe?) would have been needed for this.

    Again though – can you point me towards any corroboration you’ve got on this? I have some security minded friends who are just itching to read more about it, and I’d like to make sure it’s legit.

  336. 336.

    MobiusKlein

    @Calouste:

    but the right-extremist organizations hire for loyalty, not for competence. Or probably nepotism/cronyism before even loyalty.

    At one point in my life (2010?), I had the ability to make Spanish the default locale on Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck’s video streams.  But loyalty to ideals kept me from doing that.

    I’ll suggest cronyism, as plenty of infosec folks are also 1st amendment purists.

  338. 338.

    MobiusKlein

    @counterfactual:

    That’s the link that explains things, and why Drivers Licenses info is found.

    1. The admin access granted allowed access to files, videos, images
    2. The system stored admin only images in the same space as user ones
    3. They required users to upload pictures of the DLs
    4. Boom goes the dynamite

    And the kicker.. is this: all of this information was thought to be secure and private by individuals who were making the posts. A significant number of those individuals went through the process of being a “Verified Citizen” on Parler. What does that mean?
    It means they uploaded a picture of the front and back of their REAL State Driver’s License…….. Let that sink in for a second.

    A reminder for me to check our data retention policies at work

  340. 340.

    Jay

    Still updating my thread of law enforcement participation. As of Sunday night, I count 10 active members of law enforcement who are confirmed attendees of the Trump riot. Former cops also among attendees. Local reporters are working to confirm more. https://t.co/NVASKLzytB— jon ben-menachem (@jbenmenachem) January 11, 2021

  341. 341.

    Jay

    An AP review of posts and records of more than 120 people charged or otherwise connected to the Capitol riot shows that the mob was overwhelmingly made up of longtime Trump supporters, including GOP officials and donors and far-right militants. https://t.co/3c3uk7EfJ8— The Associated Press (@AP) January 11, 2021

  344. 344.

    Martin

    Whoops. Seems Parler didn’t strip exif. So those incriminating photos/videos they deleted are not only now in the wild, they have all the identifying, location, and timestamp information preserved.

    Is there anyone in the conservative space that

    1. Does not lie
    2. Has the capacity to detect a lie

    Because such a creature looks like a fucking unicorn right now.

  345. 345.

    Sloane Ranger

    @dmsilev: As you say, it doesn’t really affect the timings and it gives Pelosi the opportunity of seeming “reasonable ” by asking the GOP to take out their own rubbish before she starts something formal.  It also forces the GOP reps to take a side.

    Do they support the use of the 25th Amendment against a man who egged on a mob to attack Congress or do they oppose, implicitly supporting said man? Whichever option they choose will be unpopular with someone.

  346. 346.

    Shalimar

    @Subsole: I was flipping through channels yesterday and found a rebroadcast of a local church service from the previous week,  before the coup.  Apparently they were unsure of what to say after the coup failed so they didn’t do a new broadcast.

    Anyway, the pastor’s sermon was about the coming certification and demonstration in D.C.  He went out of his way to both sides everything,  but he did say God would sort out the truth and it was pretty clear he expected the Trump side to win.  We will see what he has to say next Sunday when they broadcast again, but I’m guessing he is one of those who was disgusted by what an actual coup looks like.

  347. 347.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @NotMax: Was there in 1961 between flights at some godawful time of day and that was more than enough of a taste of the place.

    I spent a month in Houston one night in August 1970…

    …but I do have pleasant memories of a few days in Austin and a daytrip to San Antonio with dear friends this millennium.

  348. 348.

    Villago Delenda Est

    At an absolute minimum, Hawley and Cruz must go.  On the House side, well, start with McCarthy and work your way down.  Gohmert, Jordan, Brooks, Gaetz.

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