House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told lawmakers to be prepared to return to Washington for action on President Trump https://t.co/t0bX4tspe3
— Bloomberg (@business) January 10, 2021
Source familiar with Pelosi’s thinking says should Pence not invoke the 25th Amendment by the conclusion of her CBS interview Sunday night, she’s prepared to green-light bringing articles early next week.
— Hugo Lowell (@hugolowell) January 10, 2021
Repubs, of course, are meeping about how inflammatory it would be to hold their Arsonist-in-Chief to account…
we don’t negotiate with terrorists https://t.co/bne0AQHlhj
— kilgore trout, brad r’s brother (@KT_So_It_Goes) January 10, 2021
Impeachment is “divisive” only if there’s an actual *divide* about the President’s conduct. If you’re ok with what he did, stand up and say it. But don’t hide behind weasel words like “divisive.”
— Elie Honig (@eliehonig) January 9, 2021
It may also have another foreign policy implication: restoring faith this kind of thing isn't going to become tolerated as normal in the US – which has deeply alarmed a lot of countries. https://t.co/bfhzjpV82c
— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec) January 9, 2021
No lifetime pension.
No lifetime Secret Service protection.
No running for President.
No $1 million travel budget.#ImpeachTrumpNow
— Kurt Bardella (@kurtbardella) January 9, 2021
What are you guys going to do, attack the capitol and kill people while trying to overturn a presidential election? https://t.co/hMrjmbZth7
— Adam Serwer ?? (@AdamSerwer) January 9, 2021
Calls for unity from Republicans are inauthentic until they stop spreading the lie that there was massive fraud in this Presidential election. Tell the people the truth it was a free and fair election and President Elect Biden was duly elected. That is the first step to unity.
— Ruben Gallego (@RubenGallego) January 10, 2021
Also, we should continue to deny that Biden won the election
— The face toucher (@JonIsAwesomest) January 10, 2021
Impeachment/25 Amendment are literally constitutional remedies. Insurrection, not so much. https://t.co/Zw8ZxJ0bSc
— Daily Trix (@DailyTrix) January 10, 2021
Holding him accountable for stoking the anger and violence could make his followers even more angry and violent, so let's let him slide. https://t.co/mtMeAS3HI4
— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec) January 10, 2021
Instead of Republican leaders saying that Trump shouldn't be impeached because it would make his followers angry, they *should* say that impeaching (and removing) Trump in a bipartisan manner would send a signal to his followers that this kind of behavior can never happen again.
— Josh Jordan (@NumbersMuncher) January 10, 2021
When Republicans say “unity” what they mean is “we would really like not to have to talk about Donald Trump anymore”
— Josh Barro (@jbarro) January 10, 2021
We have already established the precedent that a President won't be removed from office for shaking down a foreign country for political favors.
Now we are on to establishing the precedent that he won't be removed for whipping up his supporters to physically assault Congress.
— Patrick Chovanec (@prchovanec) January 10, 2021
Absolutely. Many violent authoritarians fail the first time around. https://t.co/9j9grATc9q
— Jennifer 'Prosecute Incitement and Sedition' Rubin (@JRubinBlogger) January 9, 2021
Baud
Our job is not to persuade them. Our job is to defeat them.
Cheryl Rofer
This post is worth checking out for international reactions on Twitter. Chovanec is right – impeachment will help the US internationally as well as here.
debbie
Just because they didn’t physically destroy federal property on Wednesday doesn’t mean any of Trump’s enablers aren’t themselves insurrectionists. Hawley, Jordan, Cruz and all the rest need to be charged appropriately. These “Christians” need to see what really going Biblical on their asses involves.
satby
And while we’re at it, censure (at least) or expel the members of Congress that were party to the sedition. They helped inflame the insurrectionists as much as Trump did by supporting his lies.
Frank Wilhoit
It is bone simple. We got where we are by letting people off the hook.
debbie
@Cheryl Rofer:
Half-listening to the BBC overnight, even Palau and Micronesia support impeachment.
Matt McIrvin
We need to be asking whether Hawley, Cruz, etc. were actively involved in a plot to murder their colleagues.
debbie
raven
A former assistant U.S. attorney raised the unnerving possibility that Donald Trump could pardon his supporters who violently stormed the Capitol on Wednesday.
Baud
@raven:
That’s been known.
geg6
These assholes can just go fuck themselves already. Unity? Going too far? JFC. I just can’t even with these mother fuckers. I hope Biden tears this stupid letter up while giving them the finger. I’ve read that Nancy Smash has given Pence until the end of her interview on 60 Minutes tonight to start the 25th Amendment process. Otherwise, impeachment moves ahead tomorrow. I really want to see that interview.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
I wish I could impress on some of those bastards that in a just world, impeachment would be the compromise solution. Because in a just world, Trump should be fearing a trip to Terre Haute and a judicially-scheduled date with a needle.
debbie
@raven:
And then turn himself into a martyr if impeachment is introduced. ?
sixthdoctor
Going to call my senators Monday (live in MD, have good ones) and ask them to support expelling and/or censuring all senators who voted to challenge the election, not just Cruz and Hawley. Republicans have been playing footsie with the domestic terrorists for decades and then they cry “nuh-uh” when called on it. Has to stop.
debbie
@sixthdoctor:
I’d call mine (Rob Portman), but he pretty much acquiesced to the deniers. I’d be afraid I could’t remain civil.
NotMax
Historical tidbit regarding another vice president from (and formerly governor of) Indiana, Thomas Marshall.
MattF
Happy that my rep, Jamie Raskin, is playing a big role in this. Yippie!
geg6
@sixthdoctor:
Called mine, too. And was surprised and pleased to find the Toomey staffer completely sympathetic to my fury and that he’s leaning toward a yes on conviction. And, of course, my call to Casey’s office was just to thank him for being such a great senator and patriot. Never doubted where he stands. Called Lamb’s office for about the fourth time this week to thank him and express my hope he will vote yes on impeachment. Which, after his House speech this week, is not really in doubt.
Matt McIrvin
@raven: That was the scenario I personally had in mind for January 6, months and months ago: Trump sends assassins in to shoot up the joint session, or take Congress hostage, with promises of a pardon already in hand, since they’re all in the District of Columbia.
As it is, we don’t know how much advance collaboration there was. But this is still an open possibility.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@raven:
I saw it said that there were too many of them to pardon, many of them unknown, they haven’t been convicted yet, and there’s less than two weeks left in his term; there’s not enough time to do so
Tony Jay
So elements amongst the GOP are trying out a strategy of exploiting the MSM’s instinctive bias towards Rock-Ribbed, Heartlander ‘authenticity’ in order to paint impeachment as a divisive over-reach that will only offend Real America and (whisper it) justify further armed resistance by Mr and Mrs Main Street?
They really are convinced that this is all a big old game, aren’t they? Decades of owning not only the refs and and commentators but also the sports reporters, stadium owners and publishers of the annual sporting almanacs have left this bunch of coddled babies with a very limited repertoire and a massively entitled blindspot for where the national zeitgeist is at. I guess it will take a pretty severe backhand across the chops from Nancy SMASH before they start to comprehend that President-for-Life Donald J. Trump Presents – INSURRECTION: REDCAP RAMPAGE – Battle for the Capitol was a complete bust that vanishingly few people want to see a sequel to.
Matt McIrvin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If Carter could pardon all the Vietnam-era draft dodgers, and Ford could pardon Nixon in advance of conviction, surely it’s legal for Trump to just say anyone involved is pardoned for anything they did there.
sixthdoctor
@debbie: I wouldn’t even know how to even broach communication with one of the traitor Senators. They’re the Confederacy except at least the Confederacy had the honesty to declare war.
I’m being melodramatic but I’ve gone from sad to furious, I guess the next stage is coffee and Cyberpunk 2077…
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
Translation of Republican weasel speak: pretty please don’t put us between a rock and a hard place by making us vote on impeachment!
The crazy thing is the Republicans’ necks were on the line too because if that mob was going for Pence, no-one was safe. The first rule of totalitarian regimes is no-one else with power is ever viewed as sufficiently loyal. Yet, despite the fact that they could have been killed and they still won’t fully turn on the guy.
OzarkHillbilly
@debbie: The time for civility is long passed. And as far as being civil to the person who answers the phone, remember they willingly work for someone who wants to aid and abet a treasonous son of a bitch.
sixthdoctor
@geg6: Good to hear about Toomey. I have no doubt there are Republicans (maybe even a bare majority?) who know this is wrong but are afraid of retribution from the terrorists their party stirred up. Which is unfortunate, but dance with the devil and all that…
OzarkHillbilly
@Matt McIrvin: Their problem, and the only reason I can see for why trump won’t, is they killed a cop.
Matt McIrvin
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
That’s why I’m wondering if some of them were in on it. Maybe it was a more organized rabble than we think, and some of them actually were safe.
Danielx
Unity and healing? Great! Let’s start with every single fucking Republican congressman/woman saying publicly that every single allegation of election fraud was a lie and Trump’s followers were – putting it kindly – misled by the Fraud in Chief.
That, for starters.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Trump also won’t because he doesn’t care about the riff raff.
Amir Khalid
My understanding is that the Senate trial of Donald Trump doesn’t count as a judicial trial for double-jeopardy purposes. So would I be correct in thinking he could still face a federal criminal charge of inciting insurrection?
Matt McIrvin
@Amir Khalid: Yes, you are correct.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Matt McIrvin: Maybe some of them were safe, but not all of them by any means, and even the ones that cooperated couldn’t be absolutely sure.
snoey
@OzarkHillbilly: That’s a real world reason.
The Trump world reason is that they are tacky low class losers who didn’t do the job and made him look bad.
Princess
@debbie: Call him anyway. Call the DC office. The staffer you get on the phone will be someone who spent the day huddled in a safe room, or hiding under a desk on the 6th. Or will be a friend of people who did. Use that. If Portman doesn’t care about the security of his own staff, how can we expect him to care about Ohio? Word is GOP staffers are scared and angry too and putting pressure on their bosses. Help them.
Mai Naem mobile
I am going to call my Senators tomorrow – my Rep has already said he’s for it. For the first time in forever I feel like my call to my one senator may actually matter because its Mark Kelly and not Martha McSally .
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@snoey: Yeah, this. Plus if he pardons them he’s basically admitting it was an insurrection and that may increase his own legal jeopardy.
But mostly it’s that they failed and made him look bad and therefore can’t do anything for him at this point, and the first rule of Donald J Trump is he don’t do nothing for anyone who can’t do nothing for him.
mali muso
My rep (Wexton) came out in favor of impeachment on day 1, and I’ve been calling her office regularly to register my support for her. Have also been calling Kaine and Warner. Even if we are sure our reps are on board, seems like giving them the data of constituents’ support is a good thing.
Eural Joiner
@sixthdoctor:
I’ve thought several times this past week: “should I jump into this immersive dystopia filled with a violent, corrupt, corporate led hyper-technological social wasteland…or should I just turn off the news and fire up Cyberpunk again?”
I’ve played *a lot* of Cyberpunk as an entertaining escape from our reality since Wednesday. :(
Dorothy A. Winsor
My anger doesn’t seem to be lessening at all. These people expect to stage an insurrection with no consequences at all. They said they wanted to kill the VP. They did kill a police officer and caused four more deaths. You can’t just say by-gones.
zhena gogolia
@Matt McIrvin:
Yep.
zhena gogolia
@MattF:
He was excellent in the first impeachment.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Matt McIrvin:
The thing is, the draft boards and the DOD knew who those people were. They had records of them.
As for Ford pardoning Nixon, that pardon was untested because nobody wanted to deal with it afterwards in the interests of “moving on”
MattF
It’s notable that one very common Twitter reaction is ‘I looked at the videos and it was much worse than I had imagined’. The Republican politicians who went through it are probably still getting over a state of shock. This doesn’t excuse them, but the shock and disorientation are real.
Matt McIrvin
@Eural Joiner: I’d been binge-reading Nnedi Okorafor’s Binti stories. That is a science-fiction series in which the far-future wonders and personal discovery tend to get interrupted by sudden bursts of politically-charged mass killing.
Benw
Leopards call for unity, urge faceless people to not go TOO FAR
Percysowner
@debbie: Yeah, I have Portman as well. Sad thing is he USED to be a “moderate” Republican. Fortunately we also have Brown, who is rock solid and I’m was in a Democratic district (I moved after the election) so the last person I voted for is good too. I’ll have to check on my current Representative, because I think I’m in a district that is SO gerrymandered that it’s Republican even though I live in an area with BLM and Biden Harris signs still in the yard.
Anyway, I use Resistbot to contact them all. Portman just lets everything go to voicemail when there is a tough vote.
Immanentize
@raven:
I saw your question about impeachment last night. I’ve answered this once or twice in threads which seem to go dead as soon as I hit “Post.” People using past pardons (Nixon, draft dodgers) are making some big categorical errors in thinking this through.
So, here is how I think about it, as a criminal law matter. First, pardons are for criminal law questions only — that is, you can’t pardon someone out of a civil lawsuit.
Second, the basic unerring premise of criminal law is that every crime must have an act. One cannot punish thoughts alone, only acts (although conspiracy as a crime gets close). So — all crimes must be based on acts. But not all acts are criminal of course.
Third — the prior examples of “blanket” pardons were not all that blanket. Nixon’s pardon was never tested — but it was a pardon of a specific individual for all ACTS while in office (only then by specific dates). The Carter pardon was for a narrow set of crimes (selective service act crimes) for many but it also excluded a good number of people (AWOL offenses for example). So, a wide but finite number of people who avoided the draft, but only for a very narrow category of statutory crimes. So, not so much an ACTS pardon, certainly not a specific person pardon, but rather a bar to Federal prosecutions of certain specific federal crimes before a certain date. Carter’s memorandum was not really considered a pardon of individuals by many, rather a direction to Federal prosecutors not to charge crimes (which is always discretionary anyhoo). When Reagan became president, there was talk of him issuing a new order allowing the prosecutions again, but four years had passed and it seemed like a stupid fight to have. So, again, untested.
So, for a valid pardon to be made here, It seems that the president would have to pardon either specific people, or specific acts related to crimes. I think that he could pardon Q Shaman guy for all crimes committed that day. Or even committed during Trump’s term. A pardon of a Nixon type. But that could/would be tested. Trump could pardon everyone in the world for violating the trespass of public property crimes under a specific statute. A Carter-type “pardon.” But that might only be a prosecutorial discretion act which could end with his term in office.
What I do not think is legal as a pardon is what most people are calling “blanket” pardons. For any act or crime for any person that day. Is he really going to pardon the cop killer(s?). Or, suppose someone did plant a bomb in the Capital that day and it goes off after the pardon issues? The act was planting the bomb, can that conceivably be pardoned? I think not.
If he tries a blanket pardon of this type which has no precedent tested or not, there will be prosecutions and then we will know the outlines of the pardon power.
Further affiant sayeth not. And if there are typos, deal. It’s Sunday morning.
zhena gogolia
Great story about #GuyonPorch and #WomaninCar
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-trump-supporters-turned-one-mild-mannered-dc-lawyer-into-the-angry-guyonporch/2021/01/07/384be64c-5106-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_the_optimist&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_optimist
SiubhanDuinne
@Mai Naem mobile:
I am very excited at the prospect of entering Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock into my speed-dial contacts list as soon as they are sworn in and get phone numbers assigned!
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: @snoey: It is only in self interest. Who’s he gonna call when the riff raff come for him with a rope and the cops can’t hear the radio calls because he pardoned a bunch of cop killers?
rachel
@debbie:
Now for something that shouldn’t be different but is: https://nationalcouncilofchurches.us/open-letter-to-vice-president-pence-members-of-congress-and-the-cabinet-calling-for-the-removal-of-president-trump-from-office/
(I looked for my church’s head there. He signed.)
@debbie:
dimmsdale
Allow me a totally IR-responsible, “too OUT-there to have happened/go take a chill pill and lie down” Grand Unified Crazypants Theory about January 6: mammoth rally of Trump loonies is explicitly directed to the Capitol by Rudy, Trump, Mo Brooks, Cruz et al.; mixed among them are at least 20-30 ex-mil Oath Keepers (there’s video) who are organized, focused and directed (flex-cuff restraints, their own comms, debilitating spray, sidearms, mace) let into the Capitol by congressional staff (Gaetz? Gohmert?), working off maps provided by same. They have the ENTIRE leadership succession of the country, plus the EC certificates, all in one place, if only they can find them. Pentagon (via Trumpy appointees) refuses to send National Guard as Capitol is overrun. Trump watches a bank of monitors in a tent (Video Village, to you film production folks) as events unfold. The ragtag Trumpy looters hold the nation’s attention with their antics while the Oath Keepers execute searches but fail in their mission, everyone goes home, and the Republicans begin their “tut-tut, this is a time for unity and healing” litany. Meanwhile well placed Trumpies in the FBI and DC US Attorney’s office can stymie or misdirect investigations and destroy key evidence on the REAL perps while the vaudeville nitwits are rolled up and paraded in front of the cameras.
Poke holes in this theory, PLEASE.
MattF
Arnold.
raven
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
The full extent of a president’s power to pardon has not been fully resolved. Pardons have been used for presumptive cases, such as when President Gerald Fordpardoned Richard Nixon, who had not been charged with anything, over any possible crimes connected with the Watergate scandal,[7] but the Supreme Court has never considered the legal effectiveness of such pardons.[8] There is disagreement about how the pardon power applies to cases involving obstructions of an impeachment.[9] Also, the ability of a president to pardon themselves (self-pardon) has never been tested in the courts, because, to date, no president has ever taken that action.[10]
Immanentize
We shall have peace…
Theoden, King, puts down the smack to Saruman regarding unity in such circumstances.
Baud
Besides, why would Trump pardon antifa terrorists?
Gin & Tonic
@Immanentize: Good, useful explainer. Thanks, Professor.
Jay C
@MattF:
Yes, but that “shock and disorientation” doesn’t seem to have staggered Congressional Republicans enough (not enough of them, anyway) that their initial reactions to this violent and unprecedented assault on *our* government haven’t been:
1. Near-unanimous self-blinding as to the source of the riot (I.e. THEIR Party’s President whipping up a mob)
2. A reflexive retreat into calls for “unity” and hypocritical bleating about “divisiveness” (utter avoidance of responsibility, still less accountability)
3. Frantic attempts to change the subject to a narrative of themselves as “victims” (Twitter bans, “mean” criticism, etc.)
4. Mass avoidance of the core excuse behind the whole violent mess, I.e. the Big Lie about “election fraud”. (Exemplified by the “Nazi” whining when Joe Biden used the phrase “Big Lie”)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Matt McIrvin: I think it’s more like they are so full of themselves they think they can still control this pack of raving idiots they unleashed on society. It’s like the Linsey Grahm video of him being harassed at the airport. One would think a US senator could call in a favor from his supporters to get back to his home state safely.
Gin & Tonic
@dimmsdale: Uh, what if I can’t?
raven
@Immanentize: cool, thanks
The Thin Black Duke
If that white cop didn’t die, this might have fallen down the memory hole.
Jay C
@dimmsdale:
TBH, (and unfortunately) the only really glaring hole there is that Trump went back to the WH to watch the riots from his office (I believe).
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m half-expecting RWMF Media to start in with the “granite counter tops” (or similar) treatment of Officer Sicknick.
Chyron HR
@Baud:
Obviously the antifa foot soldiers will lead us to the antifa ringleaders who planned the antifa false flag attack. Antifa.
Waldo
Doesn’t have to be a blanket pardon. Pardoning just one of these traitorous fuckers before Jan. 20th would be a green light for all the rest of them.
MattF
@Jay C: Agree. I’m saying that I expect eventual regrets, but likely too late to do any good.
catclub
@Frank Wilhoit:
For some people, the law protects but does not bind, for others, the laws binds but does not protect. White privilege.
RandomMonster
He won’t do anything for them. They’ve served their purpose, and their testimonies can’t implicate him in a crime.
debbie
@Baud:
Jesus. Can you imagine? He gets them all worked up to do his dirty work and then complains about their sloppy clothes!
BellyCat
@dimmsdale: I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
debbie
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
It will never be forgotten. I get angrier every passing day. The Republican Party will never be anything other than the Party of Treason. Period.
Fair Economist
@dimmsdale: The only hole I have to poke in your theory is that given the number of targets, I think there were more than 20-30 in the organized death squads.
BellyCat
@Immanentize: thank you for taking the time to explain this. Very helpful.
catclub
One Catholic Bishop, no Cardinals.
Episcopal Church USA is there. Bravo for Michael Curry.
debbie
@Percysowner:
That’s why I email his government account. Someone reads them, if only to add my name to his email list for pablum responses.
Signs are still up here, but when I spotted Trump signs and banners while running errands yesterday morning, I felt my blood pressure rise and even pictured me running up on their lawns and ripping the fucking things to pieces.
MattF
@dimmsdale: IMO, the reason the ex-mils failed was a lack of organization. Each of them was acting independently, seeing himself as the hero, no one was actually in charge.
mrmoshpotato
Kevin Brady is a pile of shit, and I hope Nancy SMASH censures his dumb, traitorous ass.
debbie
@Immanentize:
Thank you so much for this explanation. But on this:
I can see Trump thinking about doing this anyway as a publicity stunt that will endear him to his followers.
japa21
@Immanentize: Thank you. I am not a lawyer, not even on TV, but that really is common sense thinking. Of course it would be a major mistake to confuse legality with common sense.
topclimber
@Jay C: You would think folks who yelled “Stop the Steal” would have no problem pivoting to saying the same thing in regards to folks who wanted to steal electoral votes. Maybe 2 or 3 of them, anyway.
japa21
@catclub: The Catholic Church is not a member of the organization. The Bishop you refer to belongs to a church which follow the Catholic tradition but does not recognize the Pope.
Martin
I really hope the epitaph of this nation isn’t ‘We could have stopped the madman, but Robert’s Rules defeated us’.
The insurmountable barrier right now seems to be a procedural rule in the Senate, the sanctity of which cannot be violated even during an insurrection.
dimmsdale
@MattF: Could be. but if you observe this video, and note the organized fashion they all move forward, my lunatic crazy pants theory says they would have had extensive C&C briefings first, with specific assignments laid out for each search team, and their options outlined. At this point, who knows really?
One hole in my crazy pants theory: they seemed to know where Clyburn’s “working” office was, where the parliamentarian’s office was, but NOT where the top 3 principals were being secured? That doesn’t make sense
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1348115530654347266?fbclid=IwAR2ueRxMDdTu7eF00OwTz6n3U_MlaHI2siFk_nst_NTRbsN0ntSby7TK3DQ
Steeplejack
@dimmsdale:
Debunked. Trump was back in the White House then. The tent footage (with Kimberly Guilfoyle dancing) was from before Trump’s rally speech.
Martin
I’ve written to my senators and rep asking them to send referrals to the DOJ to have any Senators or Representatives who have publicly claimed that the election was stolen to be arrested for seditious conspiracy. That would include Cruz, Hawley, Johnson, Paul, Scott in the Senate.
That lie is the obvious incitement for the insurrection attempt on Wed, and it’s been proven by multiple federal courts to be a lie. It a lie that is particularly dangerous because it asserts that a fundamental democratic principle was violated and needs to be remedied, at a time when the only remaining remedy is violence.
Without the lie from elected officials, the motive for violence doesn’t exist.
prostratedragon
@catclub: The Roman Catholic Church as a body is not a member of the NCC, though I think some individual Catholic laypeople and maybe clergy co-operate with it at times. It will be interesting to see whether the Catholic bishops’ conference and such bodies have anything to say about this. The cardinals seem quite a mixed bag, but Cupich of Chicago and Gregory of DC, at least, would not be supporting the insurrectionists I’m sure.
Steeplejack
@MattF:
Surprisingly good and affecting statement.
satby
@debbie: They have been the party of treason for a very long time.
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
This is a hit & run post to refer you to a really powerful tweet with video from Arnold Schwarzenegger of all people. I would embed the video itself if I knew how. It’s over 7 minutes, and kind of schmaltzy, but really worth watching. He talks about growing up in Austria, and the parallels to Wednesday, and… well watch:
https://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger/status/1348249481284874240?s=20
catclub
@prostratedragon: Thanks!
Matt McIrvin
@dimmsdale: About one detail: There are actually multiple copies of the electoral-vote certificates sent to various places against just such a contingency, so the loss of the ones actually in the chamber would not have been legally fatal.
O. Felix Culpa
@dimmsdale: Actually, I think you’re right. I firmly believe there was both deliberate action and inaction to facilitate the insurrection.
SFAW
@Baud:
Outstanding.
dimmsdale
@Steeplejack: thanks, I’ll cross THAT one off the grand unified crazy pants theory.
artem1s
The next 10 days we will see what rats stick with Trumptanic and which choose the ice cold water. no life boats left for them. I for one am looking forward to a new AG and the DOJ investigating the traitor tots and other non-elected staffers who were in the WH cheering on the mob
dimmsdale
@Matt McIrvin: Yeah, I guess the people planning the op would have known that….right? OTOH, if the objective was to screw with the certificates sufficiently to prompt cries to void the election, due to …. oy, at this point I don’t know if I need MORE coffee or LESS coffee. I guess the question is, how much would they have had to monkey with ONE set of certs to prompt calls for an election audit?
Steeplejack
@Martin:
Excellent point.
H.E.Wolf
There are a number of comments this week on social media by women who have experienced domestic abuse, noting the parallels to an abuser’s typical pattern of behavior.
I can’t do justice to the vast body of material, spanning decades, on the phenomenon. Two points only:
It recurs.
It escalates.
JanieM
@dimmsdale: Yeah, I’m sure that only people on this almost top-10,000 ranked block have figured this out. NO ONE in the FBI and DC US Attorney’s office or anywhere else in an actual position to do something about it has a clue. Why don’t you call them up?
dimmsdale
@JanieM: Before I posted, I had a thought that this was all so obvious to people that it would be stupid to even type it up. So, what’s YOUR take?
moonbat
Trump won’t pardon the rioters because that would imply complicity and with five dead there are five different civil lawsuits waiting for you from those families of the dead as soon as your ass is out of office.
You have to put yourself in his shoes (Yuck! Watch out; those lifts are tricky to get around in!): His days in power are numbered. He’s been cut off from being able to “command” his followers. And his followers have lost their easiest platform for organizing among themselves. He was made to publicly concede a race he had no intention of conceding. He’s facing a world of legal hurt without the office of presidency to hide behind. And if Pelosi is successful in bringing impeachment he loses that sweet pension deal AND the ability to fleece the rubes for another four years through “campaign contributions.” So, no presidency, no money, no gratification from his adoring followers. He’s thinking about himself right now and no one else. What’s best for Donald?
Omnes Omnibus
@dimmsdale: You talked yourself onto that ledge. You can talk yourself down.
Barbara
They need the delusional mob voters to stay in office in many places. They’re also afraid of finding out that some members and staff were lending aid and assistance. For example, why was Lauren Boebert live tweeting the location of Nancy Pelosi during the course of the fracas? This is a journey they have been dreading for a long time.
Matt McIrvin
@dimmsdale: Well, the Republicans will call to void the election for any reason whatsoever or none, but the “audit” in this case would just involve comparing the other, I think, five identical copies of the certificates in the hands of assorted state and federal officials, and that would be that.
Barbara
@moonbat: I also don’t see pardons for these people on the horizon. It’s too much work and it’s hard to see who would go out of the way to help him. It would also highlight his own guilt in a way that would be unhelpful for him in the impeachment debate.
debbie
@dimmsdale:
Also, they all said they were “storming the Capitol.” I’m guessing that was imprinted in their brains as the online agitation grew and grew.
debbie
@satby:
Thanks for this. I must say I did not realize the government knew what Nixon was up to (and I wish they’d opened up about it, just like I wish Obama would have exposed Russia’s machinations). I do remember my fury at Nixon about this.
But I think the GOP since Reagan has been skirting around the edges of treason. Wednesday, they fell right into the middle of it.
Everett Dirkson was less eloquent than I remember…
Immanentize
@debbie: Yeah.
debbie
@Barbara:
I do think Baud’s observation that Trump can’t pardon them because then he’d appear to be pardoning Antifa was absolutely right.
Quinerly
@Barbara: do you have a link for this? ProPublica has a slew of her deleted Tweets collected but I’m not seeing this. Not doubting you. I’m probably missing it in the search. Thanks.
dimmsdale
@Quinerly: Here’s some Twitter screenshots (bearing in mind they could be spoofed)–
https://twitter.com/FvckTrump5/status/1348289576691847172
dimmsdale
@Quinerly: well, here’s her actual damn Twitter feed. Still up there.
https://twitter.com/laurenboebert/status/1346898735050199050
Miss Bianca
@dimmsdale: Well, I would try, but I’m still too busy wrapping my head around the fact that the sheriff in our county is out there on FB blaming antifa and BLM and Kamala Harris. Maybe I’ll present your theory to him in response. Let *him* try to poke holes in it.
Miss Bianca
@Martin: I like your ideas here, and with my Senators it would be a good and effective message. But my newly-elected “representative” is one of the Traitor Twats (Lauren Boebert). Do I suggest she turn herself in? After looking up the phrase “seditious conspiracy” to acquaint herself with the meaning of the words?
Pete Mack
Let’s not bicker and hargue about ‘too killed ‘oo.
J R in WV
@dimmsdale:
Your theory is probably dead accurate. The mass crowd of MAGA choads was camo for the small semi-professional thugs looking to overthrow the government. No question about this now, the information in the videos is quite clear.
So this investigation needs to be a counter-intelligence investigation. We need to ID the conspirators within the government as we track down the MAGA participants AND the semi-pro guys searching for senior members of the opposition like Madame Speaker Pelosi, Adam Schiff, even Mitch McConnell.
And of course, because Trump destroys everything he touches, no one in the insurrection management was aware that there are multiple copies of those Electoral Ballots… or perhaps they didn’t care, because they planned to do away with the Democratic leadership. That’s more likely, actually.
Since a police officer was killed, everyone on site illegally is now potentially guilty of a capital crime. Well, several, as there were other deaths at the “party!” Pretty sure a heart attack at the scene of a felony becomes part of the crime… IANAL but have done way too much jury duty, with post trial discussions with lawyer friends.
Chris T.
Something that’s not getting enough news attention (and being actively distorted on mass media news, such as the 11 PM news last night):
It’s not “Congress” that’s delaying. It’s the Republican leadership that’s keeping the insane narcissist in power.
J R in WV
@Barbara:
What a great question!
Because she wants to spend most of the rest of her life living at federal expense in Club Fed, Florence, CO?
Because that’s likely what will happen if it can be proven that she provided that level of support to the illegal insurrection. Traitors inside the house!!
Bill Arnold
@OzarkHillbilly:
They (including many of the attendees) were openly talking on social media about the execution of the top 3 presidential line of succession people (and many others in Congress), so that Pompeo would be in command if e.g. Trump resigned and to eliminate the possibilities of the 25th section 4 and impeachment/conviction.
They are murderous seditionists.
Chris T.
Requires competence that has never been on display.
Bill Arnold
@dimmsdale:
Nah. That’s essentially my working (35% probability, higher for some subsets of it) theory too, and it needs to be proven false, not true.
Re compromised FBI/police, there is a lot of open source investigative work happening. If the official investigations miss anything obvious, they will be assumed to be compromised and in need of a purge, and they know this.
Quinerly
@dimmsdale: thanks. How stupid of me! I figured she had tried to hid it by deleting. I didn’t even think to wade thru her feed.
Barry
@SFAW: “I’m half-expecting RWMF Media to start in with the “granite counter tops” (or similar) treatment of Officer Sicknick.”
I would look on Fox News, but I just ate. Also, in this case, they’ll probably just unperson him, and say nothing. After all, his death gets in the way of ‘healing’ and ‘boys will be boys’.
Haydnseek
J R in WV
@Bill Arnold:
As in, they plotted their insurrection on line, in public, and somehow the whole federal law enforcement community had NO IDEA that the insurrection might actually attempt to “Storm the Capitol” and interrupt the transfer of power?
That “Official Investigation”?
The Offical LEO that couldn’t see the pole coming for their eye???
We already KNOW there are internal traitors who aided this coup attempt, we just need to ID them, indict them, convict them, and punish them. That’s the only purge we need!
No One You Know
@mali muso: Amen to that. It’s political air cover for people we send to Congress: “yes, this is why I voted for you and donated to you.”
I’ve noticed that although there’s a significant increase in donation email, I also get more, and more substantive, surveys, notable for including more free text responses with multiple choice answers.
No One You Know
@dimmsdale: I can’t. I think that myself.
the pollyanna from hell
This conspiracy was distributed stochastically rather than fully gamed, and too many of even LE and military accepted the cult mythology of Trump’s competence.
Dopey-o
The top principals were in a location chosen by the Secret Service, who probably have alternative secure locations. So, hard for the best-informed coup plotters to know.
Additionally, the 10 man insurrectionist teams would be no match for the firepower of trained, dedicated professionals who no doubt keep a small armory in the secure locations.
I hope.
J R in WV
The photo of 4-8 armed defenders pointing their sidearms at a door to a legislative chamber suggested to me that it would take a whole lot of demented insurrectionists to get into the guarded chamber. It seems that they intended to hold off attackers until other security folk had moved the protectees out toward their secure position.
Whatever, it worked. I believe no one in the legislative bodies, nor any staff, were injured physically. Mentally, PTSD, who can say. Hiding under a table sounds pretty creepy. But in the end, all our reps and their staff came out OK.
No doubt a huge disappointment for baby Trump back in his White House bunker… in reality, if members of congress had been killed or injured by his mob, I think he would be impeached and jailed already.
No One You Know
@Chris T.: Yep. Everyone who signed that letter should be immediately under suspicion for seeking to persist in insurrection.
But I’m in a bad mood and probably need (Irish) coffee.
J R in WV
@JanieM:
In a position AND WILLING to DO Something about it are two different things. I think there’s a layer of management installed to prevent this investigation from moving off stop dead center. Next month…
ballerat
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I’m there too, with added fury: My rep is Lauren Boebert, who helped incite the assault and who has been busy tweeting we must all come together and agree on what the republicans want, because if we don’t they will be mad and we will be the divisive ones. Also too, it was antifa/BLM who done it.
She is the Sarah Palin of the Western Slope. Except Palin has at least a high school education and doesn’t have a criminal record or a sex offender husband.
ballerat
@Miss Bianca: Yeah what the fuck can we do with that seditious shitbird? I get the sense that even if a majority of her constituents called for her resignation, she would just ignore them. She’s doubling down, not going to be stepping down.
Seems like the best angle is to press our Senators for DoJ referrals a la Martin’s suggestion (in fact I’m going to use what he wrote as a template for my own letters to our senators – Thanks Martin).
Other than supporting and helping the next Dem challenger in 2022, I’m at a loss for things to do to get her charged/removed/ejected from office.
If you got any ideas (legal ones only, of course) I’d like to hear them.