So we know that Reps. Paul Gosar, Andy Biggs and Mo Brooks were in league with Ali Alexander, head of Stop the Steal, to incite Wednesday’s insurrection (Alexander is making the accusation, but I haven’t seen these three run to the microphones to deny it). Rep. Lauren Bobert, the Q Anon gun toter from Colorado, tweeted when Pelosi left the chamber and also “Today is 1776”.
Here’s the issue: these people will deny, deflect, run away, etc. as long as they can. I can’t believe I’m writing this, but isn’t one solution to that to ask them to affirm under oath that Q Anon is a baseless conspiracy theory, and that Joe Biden is the legitimately elected President of the United States? They can probably be expelled under section 3 of the 14th amendment (stating that no Member of Congress can engage in insurrection or rebellion, or given comfort to enemies), but better to get them on the record first, right?
dfh
Asking them is one way to pin them down. But look what else is happening…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/cumulus-radio-conservative-election-fraud/2021/01/11/e12ec46e-537c-11eb-a817-e5e7f8a406d6_story.html
Cumulus is directing its on-air talent to state the truth or leave the company. Pretty big news.
PJ
I did not read the attached article, but, as reported here last night, Pelosi raised the use of the 14th Amendment to the caucus. I believe the point of that was that, in addition to impeaching Trump, Congress needs to bar every member that incited or otherwise participated in the insurrection.
ETA: I am not sure what difference a “statement on the record” now would make – they will lie if it suits them, and removal would be contingent on the evidence of their participation in any event.
BruceFromOhio
For ordinary humans or debate participants, yes. For deranged sociopaths fed a steady diet of anger, hate, fear, and lies, unlikely. A) That someone else doesn’t believe this crap immediately makes that someone the enemy, and B) a sworn statement signed in front of witnesses from any of these jokers is worth absolutely fucking nothing.
A month or two in a federal pen and a permanent ban from office is the only suitable action here. And none of that fancy congressional health care either, go buy it with your own Gaia-damned money like the rest of America.
Nicole
Hey, it can’t hurt, and if it’s humiliating to them to have to do it, too, that’s gravy.
Woodrow/asim
I’m confused — what does that solve, exactly?
If they are going down under 14A, them putting their votes to a resolution (which is what you’re asking for) isn’t going to change how that process works, from my reading of it. Nor would it change the minds of the assholes who believe them, no moreso than Trump literally running away and then throwing the terrorist sunder the bus really changed more than a handful of their minds.
At the end of the day, these are people who lie like they breathe, and are more than wiling to be two-faced about anything they can. An extra vote isn’t going to make a huge difference for them (now, the rest of the GOP caucus is a different story…)
PJ
Furthermore, I believe every Congressperson and Senator takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. Any other “loyalty oath” is going to be required by Republicans, when they get power, to be sworn to whomever is the next Republican President. It’s not a good idea.
Snarki, child of Loki
@Woodrow/asim: “At the end of the day, these are people who lie like they breathe”
Someone should put a stop to that. Either one is fine.
Cervantes
“Ask them to swear under oath . . .”? What good would that do? You could also ask them to ride a horse down Pennsylvania Ave. naked and sitting backwards, but they would probably, you know, just say no.
Jeffery
Lying while taking a loyalty oath would be nothing to them.
Palindrome
Recently moved from Ken Buck’s district to Bobert’s and was trying to decide who was worst. Now I know.
Woodrow/asim
Also, too: Has anyone considered what these calls for a fast Impeachment + Removal actually mean?
They mean Trump will throw his removal into the Courts. Because the Senate is required by the Constitution to have a trial, any trial that doesn’t give him his due — that doesn’t dot every i, and cross every t — risks having SCOTUS saying they invalidate his Removal.
That would be a National Nightmare, to say the least. Thus why Pelosi is pushing hard for the 25th, both because it’s the legal tool designed for this job+politically right and just.
That so many, including the geniuses at the Lincoln Project, don’t seem to see this risk is…disheartening.
Geminid
Special concentration by law enforcement on the staffs of Congressmen like Gaetz and Gohmert is warranted. Some probably coordinated with mob leaders, and may be liable for felony prosecution. If their bosses knew and specifically encouraged criminal activity an aggressive prosecutor could bring charges against them also.
Woodrow/asim
@Snarki, child of Loki: Snark or not, I’ll not agree to even implying someone should die over this.
We’ve had enough blood, innocent or otherwise.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@PJ:
My point is that they wouldn’t make the statement. They can’t and still survive, politically. It puts them in an immense bind.
germy
She don’t care, do u?
germy
germy
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Why? they took at Oath when they were admitted to Congress.
Spanky
@germy: … and absolutely no one is shocked by such a revelation.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@germy: Think Stupid Catalin Donny wrote it for her?
germy
@Spanky:
No, no surprise at all.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@dfh: It does seem like Corporate American is bailing on this one big time. Then again, insurgency isn’t someone that is good for one’s brand.
lee
FYI all Parler data (including deleted data) was downloaded.
Parler has also been completely deplatformed as of this morning.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
From what I’ve read debt and failure seems to be the thing that binds Trump and his Base. But it’s really strange because they don’t seem to have any agenda to fix the problems that got them in trouble. Just they want to be miserable together. It’s like they just want to drag the rest of the county down with them instead of looking for a way out. I suppose in that context the Beer Belly Coup with no plan on what to do Jan 7th makes sense.
Betty Cracker
@dfh: Was just doing a post about that. I agree it’s a big deal.
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@lee:
Yes, and I’m sure the FBI has it already, via Amazon.
russell
Throwing them out under 14th A section 3 works for me. I don’t care what they believe, and I’m not sure any public oath would be worth the effort.
Just get ’em out.
hueyplong
I’d put them under oath saying they didn’t coordinate with the rioters and then whack them for perjury when the texts are subpoenaed.
MattF
As Rubin notes, they have blood on their hands. Why offer them an opportunity, even if it’s merely theoretical, to wash it off?
Baud
@germy:
There were good people on both sides.
bystander
Looks as if Rudy may be disbarred.
https://www.showbiz411.com/2021/01/11/rudy-giuliani-may-be-disbarred-ny-state-bar-association-launches-inquiry-into-removing-him-from-membership
Took them long enough.
Danielx
As others have noted, they already took an oath when they took office, which apparently they don’t take any more seriously than the orange one takes his. Making them take another means nothing.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I guess I’m just wondering when that 14 Amendment remedy applies? Is it after they’re found guilty in a court of law of insurrection or aiding and insurrection? Or could it be something short of that, like a Congressional investigation and majority vote of their peers that they’re guilty (sort of like impeachment lite)? I’d rather the Judicial branch make the call on guilt in a perfect world (which we are FAR from at present) but that could take months or years what with appeals and such. I mean, none of the Emoluments clause lawsuits against Trump, which were launched upon his inauguration, have even made it to SCOTUS yet, four years later, which, quite frankly, is insane. SCOTUS could have bypassed the lower courts and heard the case themselves years ago but the Conservatives on the court know he’s guilty but didn’t want to be put in the place of having to rule against the President. So they slow rolled it through the lower courts and hoped the problem would go away, though one wonders whether the entities pushing the suits won’t keep pushing them after Trump is out of office. Seems like if he’s found guilty of violating the Constitution that could bar him from holding office again, which wouldn’t be nothing. Plus, it would be helpful to have SCOTUS render an opinion on Emoluments to clear things up so the next guy that comes along knows what is and isn’t allowed.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Baud: it’s like Normandy in 1944, nice beach and then AntiFa showed up and ruined everything. #Bothsides #DavidBroderBodyliesaModlernintheGrave
PJ
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: I don’t see that it puts them in any kind of bind. They can refuse to take an oath supporting Biden and continue to say that they think allegations of voter fraud were not sufficiently investigated, etc., while continuing to violate their oath to support the Constitution. Or take an oath to Biden while saying they think he’s not a legitimate President. It’s a bad idea and bad precedent and it won’t make one bit of difference in holding insurrectionists accountable.
MattF
@bystander: The NYSBA is merely a club for NYS lawyers.
germy
@lee:
Dorothy A. Winsor
If I were Pelosi, I’d for sure be taking steps to expel that QAnon rep who tweeted out Pelosi’s location during the riot.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@bystander: About time for Rudy.
Apparently a lot of the Insurgents are now on the FAA no fly list.
p.a.
Hey wasn’t Bobert packing? And yet she hid? Brave brave Lady Robin…
Edmund Dantes
@dfh: corporate American and donors trying really hard to squeeze that toothpaste back into the tube.
Not fun when the monster you’ve created gets off its leash.
lee
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
The rumor is that the FBI has Parler’s entire database by the end of last week.
These were ‘internet activists’ that downloaded it for public consumption.
marcopolo
It’s my new congresswoman, Cori Bush, who is introducing a resolution today, based on the 14th Amendment to expel all of the members of Congress that went along with Trump’s plan to nullify EVs.
Pretty sure this means that Cori has now done more in her first week in Congress than her predecessor did in the past couple of years (maybe a little hyperbolic, but still, you love to see it!).
germy
@bystander:
This means he can’t defend trump during the impeachment trial? I was looking forward to his defense.
Well, maybe Dershowitz is still available.
Gin & Tonic
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I like the symbolism of the fact that the two zip-tie guys are being investigated by the DOJ’s Counter-terrorism Task Force.
dmsilev
This seems noteworthy:
Talk-radio owner orders conservative hosts to temper election fraud rhetoric
germy
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I want to see the tweets she deleted.
Parfigliano
@germy: The Slovenian Slut should avoid statements and stick with what she knows. Soft core porn pics.
Amir Khalid
@germy:
I too was looking forward to Rudy G making a hilarious mess of Trump’s defence. But I hear Lin Wood is still available.
marcopolo
@lee: Yeah, I had a post up about this in the last thread. Here’s to hoping that cataloging/indexing/reviewing everything that has been scraped from Parler goes quickly and we can all see exactly who was planning what with whom in regards to Jan 6, Jan 17, and Jan 20.
Folks who are a lot more informed about this than I am believe that Apple, Google, AWS, etc… have moved quickly in regards to Parler over the past several days because they saw it was being used to do additional planning vis a vis attacks on our democracy. Also, hopefully there will be information there showing the relationships of all these folks when it comes to planning the simultaneous riots/attacks on state capitals last Wed.
Wapiti
To gain a security clearance, a person must affirm that they do not belong to an organization that seeks to overthrow the US by force. I think the Democratic Party (DNC?) might make a statement that they believe in a peaceful transfer of power and they will not support or protect any member who does not. Then let the Republicans echo that – and disavow the Traitor, or refuse to echo that. Then we can start pulling clearances.
Omnes Omnibus
Members of Congress take an oath to uphold the Constitution at the beginning of each term of office. Further loyalty oaths are unnecessary. Either they uphold the one the swore or they don’t. And if they don’t uphold the first one, why would falsely swearing a second bother them? And all of this is without getting into the ugly concept of loyalty oaths that name a person. We aren’t a monarchy, nor are we the Third Reich.
MattF
@marcopolo: It’s quite possible that the shutdown by Big Tech was coordinated. Who did it, and how would be pertinent questions.
Waldo
@bystander:
Does this mean he can’t represent himself when he goes on trial? That would be a shame.
Immanentize
Jes sayin:
lee
@marcopolo:
That is my understanding as well.
The interesting thing is Gab is still up and running and it has looong been a bastion of Nazis. I wonder if its days are numbered as well.
germy
Not a surprise.
Mike in NC
@germy: Trump’s mail order trophy bride grew up in Communist Yugoslavia and she has no more knowledge or appreciation of our history than her seditious imbecile husband.
MJS
@germy: “She then removed her clothing, as is her custom for photo shoots.”
burnspbesq
@Woodrow/asim:
With all due respect, you’re spouting nonsense.
Impeachment processes are the epitome of non-justiciable “political questions.” Any action of the kind you’ve described would be dismissed for lack of subject-matter jurisdiction.
In addition, you’re implicitly assuming that Harris, Schumer et al will fuck up. Why?
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Immanentize: The video below the one you linked, where the guy says “you treat me like a fucking black person” as he’s cuffed and threatened with pepper spray, is just as incisive.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@marcopolo: I’m guessing putting people on the no-fly list was also an attempt to make it harder for people to show up in DC next week.
Cameron
@dmsilev: Translation from wingnut: “Dominion’s gonna sue our asses off if you clowns don’t shut it.”
germy
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
that’s an old clip. From 2018, I think.
Peale
@Omnes Omnibus: Unfortunately, our rural betters have sent a bunch of nitwits who believe that the Constitution does not bind county sheriffs to federal laws and that all 10,000 of them are the supreme law of the land.
marcopolo
@Immanentize: It’s the internet so take this with a grain of salt, but I’ve seen several folks on twitter saying the guy who was complaining about bing kicked off the airplane–which has been posted as an example of a capital hill rioter being placed on the no fly list–was actually kicked off the airplane because he refused to wear a mask.
burnspbesq
@bystander:
Sorry to spoil the party, but nope. Being kicked out of the NYSBA would have no impact on Giuliani’s ability to practice law in New York. Attorney discipline is exclusively in the hands of the Appellate Department of the Supreme Court.
Wapiti
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I read something where the airlines had banned some fliers (because they took their masks off/were otherwise assholes flying to DC) and I wonder if it’s the airlines or TSA that’s blocking them from flying.echoed Marco Polo
Omnes Omnibus
@Peale: That doesn’t negate anything I said.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus:
The State of Georgia requires “all persons who are employed by and are on the payroll of the State of Georgia, or its departments or agencies” to take a loyalty oath. If a person does not sign the oath, the act then instructs that “(the person) be taken from the payroll and not be permitted to receive any payment from the State.”
The loyalty oath will be retained in each employee’s personnel file.
burnspbesq
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
I’d REALLY like to hear you explain how that would work under Title 28, the Federal Rules of Appellate Procedure, and the Supreme Court Rules.
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: To whom or to what is the oath given?
randy khan
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
It’s an interesting question. I’d say that the Dems should have the House Ethics Committee hold public hearings, drag all of the traitors in front of it, exhibit the evidence, make them squirm, then recommend to the full House that it determine that they are not eligible to be members. (Or if you really want to have fun, do it via the Oversight Committee, which includes AOC and Tlaib.) Since the Constitution says that “Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members,” and does not specify a supermajority for such decisions, it could determine that the traitors are ineligible by majority vote. (This technically would not be an expulsion, which requires a 2/3 majority.)
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@burnspbesq:
Kentucky’s got a unified bar – membership is mandatory; inquiries for discipline actually start with the association but final authority vests in our Supreme Court.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@burnspbesq:
Probably something about the Marshal of the Supreme Court….
Joey Maloney
@lee:
Does that include the PII that users were required to upload, including the photo of their driver’s license?
Punchy
But lying is all they know. It’s the very core of their entire broadcast. Telling the truth would lose them their entire audience, so it’s either 1) tell the truth and get canned for no audience, or 2) lie and get canned for lying.
/chef’s kiss
Gin & Tonic
@germy: What’s surprising is only one.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@burnspbesq: well… I’ll admit I’m not lawyer but the Bush-Gore suit didn’t take years. There must be some way to expedite cases that are of immediate national importance. Foreign adversaries being able to bribe Potus would seem to meet the definition of immediate national importance.
Lee
@Joey Maloney: yes. They have ALL of the user’s information
MattF
House Democrats have the votes to impeach.
Geminid
@burnspbesq: Speaking of the NY State Supreme Court, this week Judge DelConte of Oswego should resolve the 22nd NY Congressional contest between Democratic incumbent Anthony Brindisi and Claudia Tenney. DelConte has been reviewing some 2500 challenged ballots, and Friday was the last session for arguments. The ins and outs of the various ballot challenges have been fairly closely covered by local media.
germy
@Gin & Tonic:
Well, they caught one.
Gin & Tonic
@Joey Maloney: Yes.
germy
Might be awkward if some FBI employees start showing up in the database.
Woodrow/asim
@burnspbesq: As someone who is not a Lawyer, I stand down from my assertions.
I mean no disrespect, and am willing to accept I misunderstand how Impeachment is seen in the court system. I’ll look up the term you referenced and work to educate myself further.
(If what I said implies some fuckup on anyone in Senate’s part, chalk it up to my ignorance, OK?)
Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix
@Geminid:
Man, what a saga. Having worked on campaigns, I honestly feel bad for both camps, because those few ballots that they’re fighting about are probably a mess.
Geminid
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix: Most of the ballot challenges in the NY 22nd race have come from the Tenney campaign. Judge DelConte showed a certain skepticism towards some of their arguments last week, when he cautioned Tenney’s attorneys, “I will not tolerate fraud. And I will not tolerate baseless allegations of fraud.”
WaterGirl
@Four Seasons Total Landscaping mistermix:
“You treat me like a black person.” And there it is.
Would it be annoying if I append this to every BJ comment I make?
Matt
Because if there’s one thing that yeehawdis will never do, it’s lie under oath.
Jinchi
You could always take a page from mistermix and make it part of your nym.
karen marie
@lee: Is it shut down and inaccessible?
Lyrebird
@Danielx: Yes, they already took the only oath they need to take, and YES there need to be some consequences for violating it! Out they go!
karen marie
@germy: I’d be surprised if this doesn’t create massive problems for any prosecution relying on parler posts as evidence.
Ben Cisco
@Jinchi: I say TAG!
WaterGirl
@Jinchi: I would like any google search of the word “unity” to bring up:
I don’t think adding that to my nym would get us there. Maybe tbogg could work his magic like he did with Santorum. (sp?)
WaterGirl
@karen marie: The feds already had a dump of Parler BEFORE these folks made admin accounts, so what they have can’t be compromised because of what is in the public domain.
karen marie
“Stop comparing Trump’s Twitter getting shut down to bakeries denying service to gays. Better comparison: Bar throwing a drunk patron out at the end of the night after they tried instigating a fight. One is discrimination, one is violation of terms of service.”
Just Chuck
@karen marie: The app is gone and parler.com doesn’t resolve. It’s dead as can be.
Just Chuck
@karen marie: parler domain doesn’t resolve, so neither the app nor the website work. It’s as shut down as it gets.
Just Chuck
Huh, my replies aren’t showing up here. Maybe it’s because I included the parler domain and FYWP thought it was a spam link? Thought it would show a “held for moderation” message though…
karen marie
@WaterGirl: I saw comments further on to that effect. That is some help. Although that it was so easy to hack after the fact still throws a spanner in the works. Any competent defense will be able to point to the obvious lack of security and throw doubt on reliability. No doubt there will be a non-zero number of prosecutions that fail as a result.
lee
@karen marie: Yes. No one can access it any longer as no one will host their application.
karen marie
Things are indeed getting better.
sab
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you.
Public office holders take an oath to uphold the Constitution. So do members of the military and attorneys. Probably a number of other publicly licensed professionals do also. Testifying witnesses take an oath to tell the truth.
I personally find the idea of any other mandated public loyalty oath repellent.
Bill in Section 147
@WaterGirl: I missed that clip when it was shared in 2018. It is crazy how short a time the last four years are in reality. If I didn’t have a clock and a calendar I would remember this as if it was an Era. Certainly not the Era of Good Feelings.
Also the story about the guy being arrested is instuctive as we now hear the ‘patriots’ revise their ‘victory’ selfies into ‘looking for the bathroom in a nearby building’ stories. The guy later claimed he was saying that to point out the violence inherent in the system.
WaterGirl
@Just Chuck: I’ll check. Be right back.
edit: yes, the link to the parler website threw you into spam. FYI, you do not get the moderation message when you are in spam.
Sm*t Cl*de
@germy:
Enjoying the prerogative of power without responsibility.