Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

We still have time to mess this up!

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

After roe, women are no longer free.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

In short, I come down firmly on all sides of the issue.

This fight is for everything.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Nothing worth doing is easy.

DeSantis transforms Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Biden-Harris 2020 / Excellent Link: Concerning Another Fraught Inauguration

Excellent Link: Concerning Another Fraught Inauguration

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We’ve been good, warmhearted, gracious jackals for a whole afternoon, so here’s some quality snark!

Matt Palmquist, “writer/editor. Connoisseur of the last Civil War. Here’s hoping we avoid another one“:

The whole thread is worth reading, not least for the illustrations. Click over, you won’t regret it!


[snip]


[continued…]

Reader Interactions

146Comments

  4. 4.

    WaterGirl

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I think they will be held accountable.  Some of them, at least.  They will be held accountable in various ways.

    It’s up to us to make sure this doesn’t get white-washed or swept under the rug, but I think we will be successful in that.

    They fucking crossed a big red line on 1/6.

  5. 5.

    Jerzy Russian

    General Scott did not mention anything about punching the traitors in the face or kicking them in the nuts.  Oh well, different era I guess.

  6. 6.

    dmsilev

    @Jerzy Russian: His big contribution to the war was coming up with the ‘Anaconda Plan’ that ended up being a pretty good roadmap for how the Union won, so I guess he was more a crush and squeeze kind of guy.

  8. 8.

    Sister Golden Bear

    It’s a really good thread on the 1860 election.

    And I really don’t want to hear the Villagers waging their tongues about the optics of what DC looks like now when:

    The next thing to do was to certify the vote. Unlike our Top Security Minds, Scott took no chances. An angry mob gathered, but was dissuaded by FUCKING CANNONS around the Capitol.

  11. 11.

    Kropacetic

    @WaterGirl: I think they will be held accountable.  Some of them, at least.  They will be held accountable in various ways.

    The worst consequences will be for the little people. Will it deter them or fire them up?

    I worry about continued violent interventions in our electoral process, even that the violdence could spill out into everyday life.

  14. 14.

    SFAW

    I think it would be good humo(u)r if someone like Mark Milley said that he’d be OK with applying General Scott’s proposal to traitors like Cruz and Hawley.

  16. 16.

    SFAW

    @Ken:

    “Lashing them to the muzzle of a twelve-pounder” isn’t enough for you?

    It’s the $600/$1400/$2000 debate, just applied to an alternative scenario.

  17. 17.

    BR

    @WaterGirl:

    I still think pardons are very likely, especially for the well-connected ones if not all of them. It’s super easy to do (this WH isn’t known for putting effort into things) and maximizes discord — of course they will.

  18. 18.

    Patricia Kayden

    The real double standard. Police in the US are 3X more likely to use force against leftwing protesters than rightwing. Police used teargas, rubber bullets, batons and more at 511 leftwing protests vs 33 rightwing protests since April. https://t.co/K0bo7KUBX6— Matthew Cooke (@thematthewcooke) January 14, 2021

  22. 22.

    BR

    @WaterGirl:

    I don’t think there’s anything in the constitution about impeachment (without conviction) removing the pardon power.  And since the senate isn’t likely to move on it, he has plenty of time to get it done. (There is a mention that pardons do not apply to impeachment, so as I understand it a president can’t get someone out of being impeached.)

  23. 23.

    Raven

    @Geoduck: After he came out with that stupid anti-violence speech won’t it damage his defense if he pardons them? He doesn’t give a fuck about them.

  24. 24.

    BR

    @Geoduck:

    Yeah, that seems like the only argument (that I buy, anyway).  He won’t pardon others if he can’t pardon himself first. But I bet he just does it — himself, his kids, all his cronies and staff, and many or all of the insurrectionists.  Probably just Pence will get left out.

    I’m just working from the assumption that he’ll do whatever the worst possible thing is in every context.

  29. 29.

    laura

    We got a snazzy announcement that looks like an invitation to the Inaguaral from the Inagural Committee in the mail today. Very similar to a wedding invitation in paper weight and printing – a lovely heft. Tears sprung- it was such a wave of emotion. It wasnt expected, but is so welcome.

  31. 31.

    gwangung

    @BR: Really?

    If he pardons highly ranking plotters, it will have to be before they’re charged, which puts the pardon on very iffy legal grounds.

     

    If the pardon happens, they WILL be put on to the stand to elucidate their crime, which then forms the basis for their expulsion from wherever they sit. And that WILL become the basis for follow up charges on Trump.

  33. 33.

    MattF

    @BR: In fact, there’s debate about that. IANAL, but the Constitution grants the President pardon power ‘except in cases of impeachment’. You may interpret this narrowly or broadly— the broad interpretation would mean that Trump does not have the power to pardon individuals involved in the Capitol rioting, since he has been impeached for inciting the riots.

  37. 37.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    Yesterday I posted Scott’s heartwarming quote about “manuring the hills of Arlington” with the bodies of anyone who disrupted the counting of electoral votes. Scott, the 74-year-old VIRGINIAN-born Army chief, was one of the few in the build-up to the Civil War who GOT IT.

    Such a contrast to that OTHER famous Virginian, Robert E. Lee. I don’t get why Lee was given such deference or even held in honor for such a long time, even as recently as few years ago. The guy was a slave-owning piece of shit who reportedly had a terrible temper and beat his slaves. Whenever I read alt-history novels with him from a few decades ago, it’s usually noted how supposedly good and honorable he was or how he “treated his slaves well”. In retrospect, it’s kinda creepy

  38. 38.

    Kent

    @BR:I still think pardons are very likely, especially for the well-connected ones if not all of them. It’s super easy to do (this WH isn’t known for putting effort into things) and maximizes discord — of course they will.

    That’s not in Trump’s nature I don’t think.  He only rewards those who help him.  And these rioters have brought both his presidency and remains of his financial empire crashing down around him.  Nothing is EVER Trump’s fault. So the blame for why he lost the PGA and no one will do business with him will fall on all the fuckups who stormed the capitol and messed up the job.

    Besides, if HE doesn’t get a pardon, why should any of them?  And besides, they were all deep cover ANTIFA anyway, which explains the fuckup.

  39. 39.

    Raven

    @Immanentize: Beeler was arrested on charges of carrying a pistol without a license, possession of an unregistered firearm and possession of unregistered ammunition, a Capitol Police spokesperson said. A judge ordered him released on personal recognizance and issued a stay-away order from the District.

  40. 40.

    Redshift

    @WaterGirl:

    Even if Trump issues pardons, I don’t think they will stand, especially because he has been impeached for related high crimes and misdemeanors. 

    Unfortunately, from what I’ve read, the reference to pardons in the impeachment clause just means he can’t undo an impeachment with a pardon, not that being impeached prevents him from issuing pardons.

  41. 41.

    Brachiator

    @Raven:

    After he came out with that stupid anti-violence speech won’t it damage his defense if he pardons them? He doesn’t give a fuck about them.

    Trump’s weak-ass anti-violence speech is insufficient. And the GOP leadership are fools.  If they had one functioning brain cell between them, they would go to Trump and tell him that he had to deliver a speech acknowledging that the election was valid and that there was no fraud.

    And he should not sound like a drugged hostage when he makes this speech.

    The terms? Failure to do this before the inauguration and the Senate would guarantee conviction and prohibition from Trump ever holding any office.

    But this most likely will not happen.

    And then, no matter how successful and protected the inauguration might be, the anger and insanity that Trump caused will linger for year to come.

  42. 42.

    Immanentize

    @MattF: I take the broad approach because of — get this!!! — originalism!  The debate about the pardon power at the convention was all about stopping a president from pardoning say, an assassin he had hired to kill his opponent.  Madison argued that the check on this would be impeachment.  Although at the time, it seemed that even filing acts of impeachment would “suspend,” as Madison argued, the President.

    But in order to test any of this, one would have to charge a person pardoned by an impeached president.  Then that person would have to object, allowing the courts to answer the question.

    The problem with both the Nixon pardon and the Carter “pardon” is that they were never challenged so, who knows?

  47. 47.

    gwangung

    @Redshift: I’m thinking that pardons to cover up his own wrong doing are going to be challenged in court, because they were done in obstructing justice for his own misdeeds. The usual remedy for this is impeachment, which is ALREADY being done for those acts, a loophole I’m not sure even this Court will let stand.

  49. 49.

    NoraLenderbee

    Emhoff is really being referred to as the “Second Gentleman.” It cracks me up. In a good way.

  51. 51.

    Redshift

    @Immanentize: Well, I hope you’re right. It certainly makes sense to me that a president shouldn’t be able to pardon people involved in the matter he’s being impeached for, at least until (and if) he’s acquitted.

  52. 52.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @BR:

    I still think pardons are very likely, especially for the well-connected ones if not all of them. It’s super easy to do (this WH isn’t known for putting effort into things) and maximizes discord — of course they will.

    My understanding is it’s too late to pardon these people. The professionals responsible for sheparding pardons through the process in the admin have already left. Also, most of the people that were involved in the insurrection are unknown and have not been convicted; he at the very least can’t pardon people he doesn’t the know the identities of

  56. 56.

    Brachiator

    @Raven:

    Did I say it was sufficient?

    I was not disputing anything you said. Just thinking about other consequences.

    Also, if Trump tried to pardon the mob, and the pardon stood, it would also lead to disaster down the road.

    It is necessary to slap Trump down hard for what he incited. It is necessary to take away his power to do any more mischief. That includes the power to pardon.

    But, as I suggested, the GOP leadership is too stupid and too cynical to do the right thing.

  57. 57.

    Bill Arnold

    @BR:

    I still think pardons are very likely, especially for the well-connected ones if not all of them.

    Problem with that is that the vocal ones have been asking for a pardon because Trump asked them to commit crimes.
    If Trump pardoned them, he would be admitting his own guilt. He has denied any responsibility for the insurrection.

  60. 60.

    debbie

    @Raven:

    I know nothing about guns and even less about gun laws, but even I ain’t buying that his job in armed security requires that he have an unregistered gun.

  64. 64.

    Kent

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):My understanding is it’s too late to pardon these people. The professionals responsible for sheparding pardons through the process in the admin have already left. Also, most of the people that were involved in the insurrection are unknown and have not been convicted; he at the very least can’t pardon people he doesn’t the know the identities of

    Strictly speaking, Trump could write out a pardon on a napkin using a sharpie if he wanted.  There is no official required format.  The pardon power is unconstrained by procedure or format.  And pardon’s can be made to a group without naming names.  This is what Ford did in 1974 when he issued pardons or amnesty for thousands of Vietnam-war era draft evaders and deserters.  None of them were named in Ford’s pardon.

    That said, I’d be shocked if he actually did it.  He is nothing if not transactional.  And these folks brought his political career and business empire down around him in flames.  by fucking up the insurrection they betrayed him.

  66. 66.

    Immanentize

    @Raven: I should add. I think Carter’s “pardon” actually did three separate things —

    1)  it pardoned people who were tried and convicted for the selective service act crimes covered in his memo.

    2) it claimed to pardon “acts” not yet charged, for the covered crimes.

    3) it directed the federal government not to prosecute people in category 2.

    (It also was a compromise that left a lot of people to rot in Woolworths who were not evaders but “deserters” which was a damn fine line).

    I think that group 1 is in the heart of the pardon power.  Group two is on the edges because it is not really clear if a prosecution must have been at least started before a pardon.  Part three is not a pardon but a version of “amnesty” which many called his memo at the time — that is, a direction to the federal prosecutors to NOT prosecute the crimes (at least as long as he was President).

  67. 67.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    I thought one reason pardons are unlikely is his lawyers are telling him pardons for the insurrectionists would increase his vulnerability to civil law suits from the injured and families of the dead. I could be wrong about that. But if true those folks are toast, he ain’t risking losing money for them.

  71. 71.

    Kent

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:Brad Metzger’s THE LINCOLN CONSPIRACY is a good account of the 1860  assassination plot. It’s fascinating

    Yes, the whole story would make a FABULOUS movie or mini-series.  I’m surprised it hasn’t already been done.  Maybe one is in the works.  It would be especially apropos for 2021.

  72. 72.

    Immanentize

    @Raven: Damn.  But DC jails are death traps right now.  He must have been convincing?  I gotta find out if the judge is someone I know.  If yes, endless shit from me.

  75. 75.

    Martin

    Protip:  If you’ve gone to the effort to counterfeit an inauguration invite and count all the way to 500 in order to surreptitiously get into the security perimeter around the inauguration of a Democratic president, at least take the time to remove your ‘If they come for your guns Give ‘Em your bullets first.’ sticker from the F150. Its probably racial profiling or some bullshit, but I’m guessing they’re going to be onto you pretty fast.

  77. 77.

    Immanentize

    @Raven: I know, but they considered folks called up “deserters” in some prosecutions but exactly the same types got “evader” labels in court.  Depended on the state and what sort of asshole you were.  Also, people were charged as “deserters” then allowed to plead to “evader.” It wasn’t clean.

  78. 78.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Redshift:

    The Lost Cause was very effective propaganda, unfortunately, and white supremacy is a helluva drug.

    Yeah. We definitely saw that at the Capitol last week. Holy shit. Did that feel like 9/11 to anybody else?

  81. 81.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Kent:

    This is what Ford did in 1974 when he issued pardons or amnesty for thousands of Vietnam-war era draft evaders and deserters.  None of them were named in Ford’s pardon.

    I thought that was Carter? And wasn’t that amnesty rather than an actual pardon?

  83. 83.

    Immanentize

    @Raven: I believe it.  Really.  But that goes against his, “I got lost” Argument.  Sending him packing — out of the District, was not a terrible move.  The local cop shop will be watching him, I’m sure.

  84. 84.

    moops

    @Kent:

     

    As for CAN Trump pardon the insurrectionists, I’m in the ‘no’ camp.  These people are co-conspirators in the crime for which he is being impeached and the case against Trump in his Senate trial is going to require flipping a lot of these lunatics to provide detailed testimony in the Senate trial.  Those pardons would interfere with the Senate’s ability to secure damning testimony.  You get good direct damning testimony when doing so will let a judge view you favorably in your own impending sentencing.

     

    As for why would Trump pardon these people?  Well, they become your G’dam disciples once you pardon them.  Look at Oliver North?  Heck, look at Flynn?     Trump is likely also vaguely aware that the most ardent of the Capital attack thugs are not right in the head and might flip a switch in their head when they are serving a short prison sentence thinking about how they weren’t pardoned.

  85. 85.

    Miss Bianca

    @Lapassionara: It’s always so good to be reminded myself – as I have reminded others who have despaired and lamented these times – that we have gone through as bad, if not worse, in US history, and somehow managed to survive. But that yeah – these are dangerous times, and the lesson we learn from watching how others saved the Republic in years past was that we need to be sleeping with one eye open wide for a while – maybe the rest of our lives. But that’s our duty and our privilege as citizens living now – to right the ship of state, steer it away from the lee shore, and turn it over seaworthy to our descendants.

  90. 90.

    Raven

    @Immanentize: I can never find it but somewhere I read that Carter was really hard in the anti-war movement when he was Governor. Not surprising for an Annapolis grad but still.

  92. 92.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Martin:

    Now that you mention it, that’s about right. Seeing thousands of National Guard troops in DC and the threat of armed violence in multiple cities around the country feels a lot worse. This is scary. Not to mention the apparent coordination of multiple groups on 1/6, how close the mob was to catching congress members, the “Hang Mike Pence!” chants, the murders and beatings of police officers, etc.

    I’ve mentioned this before, but remember the days when we used to belittle right-wingers as elderly tea baggers on hover rounds? Or “Meal Team 6”? If only those apparently outdated stereotypes were still true

    @Kent:

    Strictly speaking, Trump could write out a pardon on a napkin using a sharpie if he wanted.  There is no official required format.  The pardon power is unconstrained by procedure or format.  And pardon’s can be made to a group without naming names.

    Something else the writers of the Constitution didn’t foresee

    That said, I’d be shocked if he actually did it.  He is nothing if not transactional.  And these folks brought his political career and business empire down around him in flames.  by fucking up the insurrection they betrayed him.

    Hopefully. I think I agree with Immanentize that impeachment means he can’t actually pardon the insurrectionists anyway

  94. 94.

    Haroldo

    @Immanentize:

    @Raven: I believe it. Really. But that goes against his, “I got lost” Argument. Sending him packing — out of the District, was not a terrible move. The local cop shop will be watching him, I’m sure.

    I don’t know the law. I wasn’t in the court room. But I am skeptical. Local cops in Front Royal??

  97. 97.

    Martin

    @WaterGirl: I don’t think it will stand for that reason. But just as the courts will nullify a contract entered into under duress, they will set aside rulings that were issued illegally as part of a conspiracy. If they find that Trump was part of the plot that he is pardoning people for, I would think they would deem those pardons to be illegal even if the constitution doesn’t explicitly call that out.

  98. 98.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Immanentize:

    What do you think of the legality of “secret pardons”? Apparently, given how absolute the pardon power is, the theory goes that Trump could “issue” oral pardons (or ones on napkins) so long as he has witnesses

  99. 99.

    Immanentize

    @Kent: I don’t put that in the pardon category.  But maybe I should?  I see it like a prosection diversion program, or special probation or parole opportunity.  I wonder how many took Ford up on his offer (made in the waning days of his losing campaign.)

  100. 100.

    Quinerly

    @Martin: very well said. I have been trying to figure out my feelings about it. You nailed it so simply. Honestly, I am more upset and horrified by the hr. I accidentally watched it unfold on 1/6. Don’t normally have TV on in middle of day. I fear a bit for my sanity as I have been mainlining all info since 1/6, day and night. Pretty sure I’m in more fear today than I was on 9/11.

  101. 101.

    Immanentize

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I don’t think either of those are valid.  I understand that the Constitution doesn’t prohibit them, but that is not how we are supposed to read the Constitution.  However, I’m told by Jonathan Turley that is how Originalism works.  Or something.

  102. 102.

    Haroldo

    @Immanentize:

    No – I meant have you ever been to Front Royal? It is a hot bed of militia activity.  I would imagine there are more than a few of those cops in those militias.

    It’s my contention suspicion our boy was a mule, getting weapons and ammo into DC.

  104. 104.

    Brachiator

    @moops:

    As for CAN Trump pardon the insurrectionists, I’m in the ‘no’ camp.

    I am also probably in the ‘No” camp. But I can see Trump trying to push his pardon power to the limit.

  105. 105.

    Martin

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): After a few days, it seemed like the government had intelligence and tools to deal with additional threats from jihadists.

    Right now we don’t have that. It’s not clear which parts of the federal government can be trusted. I don’t trust about ¼ of the legislature. I don’t like that the feds are working just as hard to undermine things as they are to helping things. And even after 1/20, I don’t like that our ability to investigate and stop domestic terrorism is so lax.

    And the one thing that would remedy a lot of this are broad statements by the GOP that the election was not stolen, and they can’t bring themselves to do that.

  106. 106.

    Ken

    @gwangung: I’m thinking that pardons to cover up his own wrong doing are going to be challenged in court, because they were done in obstructing justice for his own misdeeds.

    TRUMP: “I’ll pardon myself for inciting the insurrection.”

    AIDE: “That’s obstruction of justice.”

    T: “I’ll pardon myself for obstruction of justice.”

    A: “That’s a second act of obstruction of justice, not covered by the first pardon.”

    T: “I’ll pardon myself for that act of obstruction of justice.”

    A: “… You really aren’t getting this, are you?”

  107. 107.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Immanentize: any relation to the Turley vineyard whose wine I’m drinking tonight?

    @Haroldo: stopped in Front Royal for the first time while in college in Virginia. The only thing I remember was the museum/store that was half Elvis, half Confederacy.  Which I found weird, even as a guy who at the time lived in Memphis and was attending a college named after Robert E. Lee.

  109. 109.

    Miss Bianca

    @Martin: Oh, I don’t know. 9/11 in retrospect felt worse to me in the weeks after, mostly because I could see how the whole country was starting to lose its damn mind, and I along with them.

    This still feels bad – very bad – but I feel like, “maybe it needed to get this bad” before our national psychosis received anything like a diagnosis and tonic for its real causes and effects.

  110. 110.

    Kent

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):I thought that was Carter? And wasn’t that amnesty rather than an actual pardon?

    Both Ford and Carter did it.  In both instances they used the pardon power to issue amnesties, which is kind of a technicality.

    Pardon, or “clemency” are usually for crimes in which someone has already been CONVICTED.  Amnesty is more of a promise not to prosecute.  Both derive from the same pardon power.

  111. 111.

    Haroldo

    @Martin:

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): After a few days, it seemed like the government had intelligence and tools to deal with additional threats from jihadists.

    Right now we don’t have that. It’s not clear which parts of the federal government can be trusted. I don’t trust about ¼ of the legislature. I don’t like that the feds are working just as hard to undermine things as they are to helping things. And even after 1/20, I don’t like that our ability to investigate and stop domestic terrorism is so lax.

    And the one thing that would remedy a lot of this are broad statements by the GOP that the election was not stolen, and they can’t bring themselves to do that.

    Well put. Thank you.

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Something else the writers of the Constitution didn’t foresee

    Of course they could.  They knew British history, and British kings had forgiven masses of people after uprisings in the past.*

    *To be fair, those kings also issued takie-backsies on those pardons.

  113. 113.

    NotMax

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    First, IANAL. But shall posit the following:

    Theoretically able to be issued. However, the secret part is inextricably linked to the action and the content and cannot be disentangled. So if a recipient legally brought up on offenses so covered discloses it in public (whether in court or no) it is not only thenceforth un-secret, it is also an un-pardon, an intrinsic condition of issuance and of the implicit contract forged by its acceptance having been breached.

  114. 114.

    Kent

    @Immanentize:@Kent: I don’t put that in the pardon category.  But maybe I should?  I see it like a prosection diversion program, or special probation or parole opportunity.  I wonder how many took Ford up on his offer (made in the waning days of his losing campaign.)

    Well, strictly speaking clemency is the term for when someone is pardoned for a crime in which they have already been CONVICTED.  Commutation is a reduction in sentence without erasing the original conviction  Amnesty is more of a promise by the government not to try and convict in the first place.  But they all derive from the pardon power.

  116. 116.

    Martin

    @Quinerly: Late tuesday I was pretty convinced Ossoff had won and started to worry about the count the next day. Didn’t  sleep well, got up, started doing some work while my daughter watched Youtube. I wanted to turn the news on just to put my worry to rest but didn’t want to disturb her. So, at some point she decided to take care of some things around the house, I flipped on the TV and watched it unfold, thus ending my productivity for that day.

  117. 117.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @Haroldo:  All I know about Front Royal is that you go through it when you enter the Shenandoah National Park from the north.

    The Shenandoah is a very beautiful area.

    Of course, it was also Stonewall Jackson’s base, according to a plaque I remember reading while driving through there.

  118. 118.

    Brachiator

    @Martin:

    And the one thing that would remedy a lot of this are broad statements by the GOP that the election was not stolen, and they can’t bring themselves to do that.

    You need it from the GOP.  And, ideally, you also need it from Trump himself.

  119. 119.

    Zelma

    In October, I posted an entry about the election from “A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry,” a wonderful blog by an historian of the ancient world. It compared our situation with that of democracies in Ancient Greece and Italy. Below is an entry putting the events of 1/6 into the perspective of attempts to overthrow Athenian democracy. A most interesting analysis. And they say studying history isn’t useful!

    https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/

  120. 120.

    Martin

    @Miss Bianca: No, I get the accelerationist theory here – and I tend to think of problems that way myself. But it’s been 10 days and while I don’t expect the masses to snap out of this fugue of lies, I do expect elected officials who were in the building and are receiving intelligence briefings to, and that just isn’t happening.

    I don’t care if they are frightened. There’s no footnote under the oath for that. Don’t sign up for the job if you don’t have the guts to do it.

  121. 121.

    Martin

    @Brachiator: The GOP could have isolated Trump on that. He’d still scream about the election being stolen, but if his party was opposing that, it would have died out. Trump should refute it, but he won’t. It’s his mental illness preventing that from happening. Nobody else has an excuse.

  123. 123.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Wesley Beeler, the guy caught at the checkpoint with 500 rounds of ammunition and an unregistered firearm, had apparently been working for a security firm and already commuting in and out of DC, probably with his arsenal.

    This has me concerned that there are other Beelers “working security” already onsite.

    According to the WaPo article linked at #1, it doesn’t seem clear that his credential was forged. (It doesn’t seem clear that it wasn’t, either.) It appeared to be issued by his employer. Who for whatever reason won’t comment.

    That also has me worried, that there are private security firms which haven’t been properly vetted and which have permission to have weapons within the security zone.

  124. 124.

    Mary G

    I’m wondering about Twitler pardoning people in the WH who did his dirty work for him. If he pardons them, they are safe, but have to testify, in Congress, the impeachment trial, or who knows where. They can’t take the 5th, right? So is he going to pardon anyone there? And count me in as another who feels like this Infrastructure Week has lasted several centuries, and time is crawling like a tired snail right now.

  125. 125.

    Mary G

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: The judge asked the government three times if they didn’t want Beeler to stay in jail, and they said no, OOR is fine with us. My guess is that he was working with a private security company, but their name didn’t get on the list for that gate because the administration is incompetent. So they sent him home to stay out of DC until after the inauguration. They need to conserve jail space for the really bad guys. And he’s an idiot.

  126. 126.

    Brachiator

    @Martin:

    The GOP could have isolated Trump on that. He’d still scream about the election being stolen, but if his party was opposing that, it would have died out. Trump should refute it, but he won’t. It’s his mental illness preventing that from happening. Nobody else has an excuse.

    Trump started the lie about voter fraud, fed it, and maintained it. His supporters look first to him in order to justify their own behavior and beliefs.

    The madness might have died down if the rest of the GOP repudiated Trump and his lie, but I don’t think it would have entirely gone away.

    As it is, Trump’s most devoted followers look for all kinds of reasons to defend him, and many still assert a belief that the election was stolen.

  127. 127.

    Martin

    @Kent: There’s been a few examples of blanket pardons, but remember, this country is an experiment in social contracts. If nobody contests the pardons, then they stand, even if it’s not  clear if they were legally issued. Washington did a thing and everyone agreed, yeah, okay, that’s cool.

    To my understanding no blanket pardon has ever been challenged in court.  And that makes sense if the pardons were good even if they weren’t clearly legal. Put another way, the pardon power can be treated as absolute so long as the president isn’t a criminal whose interests go against that of the nation.

    Jefferson wrote in 1803:

    A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.

    This is why I think Democrats need to be bold in going after Trump and members of Congress. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus under the same thinking – that the nation wouldn’t survive without it. I don’t see how we can allow a conspiracy of lies from the GOP to continue and survive this.

    ‘The Flight 93 Election’ was published in 2016. The rhetoric that the nation is being destroyed by anti-democratic forces stealing elections only amplified in 2020, and we see the results. It’s going to be WAY worse in 2024, when white Christians have even less political power than now and with Texas being put up as being in  play.

    There’s no fucking way that Dems forget about 1/6. Dem turnout in 2022 and 2024 is going to be off the charts. Unless the GOP takes the white supremacists out of control of the party (I’m splitting hairs here between white supremacists and everyday racists) which I think they’re trying to do, but holy shit is that not where their electorate is, then it’s going to be way louder and more violent.

    This is white supremacy’s extinction burst, a least in terms of their national objectives. They may still run rampant over the confederacy and be a pain in the ass everywhere else, but this is it – they’ll never get national power without non-whites or non-christians, and that just isn’t a coalition that can stand.

  128. 128.

    Martin

    @Brachiator: It wouldn’t have gone away, but there’s a different between people screaming into the void on Twitter, and storming the Capitol.

    It’s called ‘the big lie’ for a reason.

  129. 129.

    MoCA Ace

    Grant, as it turned out, would encounter Floyd during the Civil War — well, kind of. Floyd, who was nominally in charge of Fort Donelson, ran away before Grant could capture him, sneaking out of the fort on a steamboat with cannons and two infantry regiments for “protection.”

    In a side thread about the Traitorous John B. Floyd there is a description of his brave running away along with a newspaper cartoon of Floyd running away with…

     

    wait for it…

     

    A large pillow with legs!

     

    What the fuck is it with traitors and pillow guys?

  132. 132.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @Ken: The “one shot salute” which I hadn’t even imagined was a thing until I learned about it yesterday from a mention and link on this site.  BJ is an all-service blog, by FSM!

  133. 133.

    moops

    @Martin:   correct.  You might get a coerced admission from Trump that he lost the election fair and square.  A big enough bribe might do it, the guy is broke and owes money to actually scary people.  It would be insincere and everyone would know it.

     

    You probably will never get the GOP to convincingly state they have faith in the elections they don’t win.  They might say it once or twice, but they would backslide into their usual rhetoric about voter fraud and having to create barriers to voting.   Voter suppression has been critical to a lot of past GOP power.  The GOP can’t expect goosed turnout like they got this year.

  137. 137.

    Ken

    @A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): I was the one that posted that link. Good to know my efforts to spread relatively useless historical trivia are effective.

    (Though it’s not completely useless; India still has un-fond memories of the British use of that means of execution, among many other things.)

  138. 138.

    Kent

    @Martin:@Kent: There’s been a few examples of blanket pardons, but remember, this country is an experiment in social contracts. If nobody contests the pardons, then they stand, even if it’s not  clear if they were legally issued. Washington did a thing and everyone agreed, yeah, okay, that’s cool.

    I’m no arguing with you.  Just pointing out that assertions upstream that Trump cannot pardon the 1/6 insurrectionists because he doesn’t know their names are wrong.  The same thing has been done multiple times before.  Although technically it would be more of an amnesty as none have been convicted

    I think the bigger legal issue with his pardons are the overt obstruction of justice.  That is to say, pardoning his co-conspirators in reward for their obstruction of justice.  That seems a clear example of using the pardon power to commit crimes.  Which cannot be legal.

  139. 139.

    J R in WV

    I wouldn’t even know how to register my pistols. Here in West Virginia we don’t have a gun registration program. I have a concealed carry permit, which isn’t needed in WV, but works with other states that recognize an issued carry permit — I can drive to AZ if I’m careful on which states I drive through…

    Not Illinois, for one.

  140. 140.

    Kent

    @J R in WV:

    I wouldn’t even know how to register my pistols. Here in West Virginia we don’t have a gun registration program. I have a concealed carry permit, which isn’t needed in WV, but works with other states that recognize an issued carry permit — I can drive to AZ if I’m careful on which states I drive through…

    Not Illinois, for one.

    Or you can just make sure it is unloaded, locked in a gun case, and stored in the trunk of your car and you can drive wherever you want, even Washington DC.

  143. 143.

    trnc

    @NotMax: He’d have to sign, but I doubt recipients ever get the original one. I think the question is whether he could sign the pardon and get it to the recipient, and if there’s some other part of the process that has to be done for it to be valid.

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